CAV: LORD IN-SIDIOUSVADER vs MASTER MEATPANTS

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#1 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules

  • ANH Vader, TPM Qui Gon

  • policy follows the rules set here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing.
  • Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. For example, a feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
  • The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

  • In character
  • High quality memes are welcome and expected
  • memes of insufficient quality will result in the user who posts them being shunned from society
  • No interrupting the debaters
  • no aiding the debaters with evidence

Judge

our judge is user/bully by the name of @anti-bully he will be the final say on all matters pertaining to the conclusion of the debate. However if you want to be tagged a simple TV4 will suffice

Location

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Tags

@xolthol@meatpants@dark-sith123@dawn_of_ages@jacensolo77@arkhamasylum3@elsebbe@azronger@redheathen@grinningf0x@vivec3629

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

MP should win without much difficulty despite his character disadvantage.

T4V and TAEP though, will be interesting.

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#3 Edited by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

MP should win without much difficulty despite his character disadvantage.

T4V and TAEP though, will be interesting.

since you're bias you are now unable to be an asshole and are blocked from this thread.

good day sir ;)

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#4 Posted by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Good luck to both.

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be (313 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks interesting. T4V and TAEP

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#7 Edited by dark-sith123 (5034 posts) - - Show Bio

You can block people from threads, though. Erkan blocked me from the Maul > Dookie list thread because I said it was ridiculous and Dooku was better than Maul. Furthermore, ISV would be correct in stating that the person in question is clearly far too biased to be fit for judging the outcome of this debate. Also, good god, the grammar on both sides...

T4V

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#8 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP.

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#9 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

This Qui-Gon raising is moving. Can we get Qui-Gon > Sidious rolling?

Also don't know what "T4V" means, but good luck all.

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#10 Posted by GuildSeal (270 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP

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#11 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous: lol, I intend to cap it out at maul. Thats why this is ANH Vader, otherwise MP and I agree Qui-gon doesn't even get to exist without burning into ash in Vader's presence.

Also T4V means Tag 4 (for) Votes

I'll tag you anyway if you don't want me to simply ask as much :)

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#12 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2565 posts) - - Show Bio

High quality memes are welcome and expected

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#13 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

The Power to Destroy a Planet is Insignificant Compared to the Power of the Force
The Power to Destroy a Planet is Insignificant Compared to the Power of the Force

Basic Argumentation:

Darth Vader is simply operating on a higher tier of force use and lightsaber skill according to Nick Gillard himself, this is what we have:

Private Email
Private Email

The other factual evidence we have is supported by Nick Gillard as well:

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

Source:http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

Darth Vader as of ANH stalemated Ben Kenobi in a duel whilst holding the advantage throughout, and was stated to be Superior to Ben through the force...

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

We also know for a fact that Kenobi did not degrade from ROTS to ANH, if fact evidence of growth can be found all throughout the ROTS novel and its unreasonable to assume he didn't at least keep up his skills considering...

Where is he? How could he vanish? What sort of trickery is this? He had assumed Obi-Wan's study of the Force had ended long ago, and that his powers had diminished over time. But Vader was wrong.A New Hope: Junior Novelization
Despite his years of seclusion on Tatooine, neither his courage nor his Jedi powers have diminished
Despite his years of seclusion on Tatooine, neither his courage nor his Jedi powers have diminished

Closed case this functions as both a superiority to Jinn in both Skill and with the force, from where I am standing there are two quotes both seemingly from omniscient sources IE: the narrator and the description, Ben Kenobi is at least comparable to if not dead even with the end of ROTS Kenobi who is for all intents and purposes the stated superior to Qui-Gon. This same Kenobi that for debating purposes I will leave at = to Darth Vader even though I can push higher. With that case completely secured I'll continue...

"Skills with a lightsaber"

So to bring this contest to a duel we must examine advantages and disadvantages to Darth Vader vs Qui-gon Jinn...

Exhibit A: Familiarity with style:

according to the official star wars fact file...

No Caption Provided

PROXY was Custom built and Programmed by Darth Vader himself, which means that all of the modules that proxy has access too are directly from Vader's own knowledge and study, and thus all of PROXY's modules are applicable as knowledge feats for Vader...

PROXY can replicate all of his modules fighting styles tactics etc per these quotes. The other thing to keep in mind is this...

Starkiller opened his eyes but didn’t move until PROXY had activated a bright green lightsaber and raised it vertically in a balanced, two-handed pose on the right side of his body. Then Starkiller was up and defending himself so quickly that Juno had hardly seen him move. PROXY rained blows upon him with a speed and athleticism belying his construction. Spinning, tumbling, and cartwheeling all across the room, he was constantly on the offensive, employing swings that were both fast and powerful. Starkillerhad his hands full deflecting them all. In the flickering light, she saw sweat standing out on his forehead.

The Force Unleashed

PROXY’s holographic skin re-formed in the shape of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Darth Vader has full knowledge of PROXY's fighting style, and since PROXY can replicate Qui-Gon Jinns style it would be absurd to think that Vader doesn't have a familiarity with Qui-Gon's style.

Exhibit B: Ambush by PROXY

PROXY has consistently shown to be below Vader in dueling skill and obviously poses no threat to him with the force. The best example of this can again be found in the novel...

Darth Vader raised his bloody blade, but the sound of another lightsaber igniting behind him forced the Dark Lord to turn around.

The apprentice couldn't keep his eyes open any longer. His fingers were numb; he couldn't feel anything at all. Weightless, he seemed to drift away from the cliff wall. His eyes were closed, but somehow he could still see. As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff's edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half.

As the pieces fell to the ground, the hologram enfolding them dissolved. Sparking fitfully and spilling delicate components into the snow, PROXY twitched once, and then his photoreceptors went out.

Caught off guard, Vader turns sees the face of the man who once maimed and left him for dead, does a quick few blocks and then immediately Speed-blitzes and stabs PROXY.

No Caption Provided

PROXY is using his most "dangerous" training module at this time which is consistent with the tiering system I established earlier how Kenobi is simply on a higher level and thus Vader is too by extension.

Conclusion

Pretty sure everyone knew who was going to win this fight from the moment it began, but it is readily apparent that Darth Vader takes this match handily. With all the scaling and tools at his disposal he can utterly annihilate Jinn on every concievable level.

Thats all for now, thanks for reading :)

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#15 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Decent post though I disagree with a lot of it.

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be (313 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting post. But why wasn’t I tagged?

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#19 Posted by dark-sith123 (5034 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, it has its limitations, but it's pretty solid for an opener, especially with the debater in question not being willing to fork out an excessive quantity of arguments in the opening moments of the debate.

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#20 Edited by Meatpants (232 posts) - - Show Bio
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My opponent's opener was very short, so I'll keep mine relatively short as well. Note that I was not allowed to counter in the first post.

VADER AND BEN

ANH Vader's combative viability is best measured via his relative parity to Ben Kenobi, as showcased during their duel in ANH. Taking into consideration all the source material pertaining to the battle, both combatants are portrayed as relative equals, with Ben possessing the overall advantage. They were at least equal, as confirmed in a number of sources:

Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.

--Star Wars The Essential Guide to Characters

Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.

--Star Wars Mysteries of the Jedi

Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.

--Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack - Darth Vader

[credit to DarthAnt66 for finding these sources]

Ben's possible advantage is most prominently demonstrated when he is able to divert attention to Luke / the stormtroopers during the duel, whereas Vader has to keep himself concentrated entirely on Ben. He tries to attack Ben as he's looking away, but Ben "somehow" manages to block the attack, as per the senior novelisation.

These details aren't important at the moment, the only point of import that needs to be taken from this is that Ben and Vader are at least equal to each other combatively.

THEY ARE BUT SHADOWS...

It's stated directly in Fightsaber that, by ANH, Ben and Vader aren't at their primes, they are "but shadows of their former selves." [Insider #62] Therefore, they're shadows of their Jedi incarnations, and so their levels on the Gillard scale can be safely discarded. Qui-Gon has shown himself to be capable of matching Darth Maul, a level 8 on Gillard's tiers (I bring up Gillard because my opponent has used his tiers as an argument) and is capable of fighting him for well over a minute before being cut down. Frankly, there's no indication that suited Vader as of ANH is capable of replicating this, let alone beating Qui-Gon. He is "but a shadow" of Anakin Skywalker, and we can hardly believe that someone who is but a shadow of Anakin could comfortably defeat Darth Maul. In fact, Vader's capabilities as a swordsman seem to have become quite lacklustre by ANH, despite sparring regularly with combat droids. This is evidenced in two ways:

  1. He constantly spars with combat droids to maintain his lightsaber skills, yet appears to be evenly matched with a grossly out of practice Ben, who is a shadow of his RotS incarnation, who was an 8.
  2. After his fight with Ben, Vader improves his skills greatly in the interim before ESB. This appears to indicate a concentrated effort on his part; perhaps in realisation from his duel with Ben that his saber skills needed to be honed.

Ergo Vader as of ANH is widely sub-par with his lightaber skills. Compare to combatants like TPM Darth Maul and Qui-Gon. These men are technical students, masters of the classical forms and incredibly in practice. Qui-Gon is one of the most skilled of the Jedi in his time, and one of the best pure duelists in the Order's history. He's arguably only inferior to Dooku, Windu and Yoda as of TPM in skill. Maul's technical skill is even greater than this. His training under Sidious was designed specifically to be the perfect physical weapon, he's a master of Juyo and trained fully in the Banite lightsaber arts. Vader by comparison is a master of Form V, but merely a dabbler when it comes to other forms. His level of technical skill by ANH is still severely lacking, compared to the former men.

FORCE POWER

Qui-Gon's power and mastery in the Force is superior to ANH Vader's. For one, he's been acclaimed by Plagueis and Sidious as notably powerful; and Mace Windu has conceded to Jinn's mastery of the Force. He's one of the greatest Knights of the PT era, the prime of the Jedi, and ANH Vader is but a shadow of his former self. The conclusion is pretty clear here. Adding insult to injury, Ben is a shadow of his former self. This former self, three years before AOTC, indirectly notes that Jinn had mastered the force to such a degree that he was capable of moving faster than Kenobi could track / react to:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life. But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

--Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

AOTC Kenobi didn't have "a chance to move, to help." as Anakin displayed a feat that he had only seen from the great Jedi Masters and Qui-Gon.

EXPERIENCE

Qui-Gon's experience in lightsaber combat still outstrips that of Vader as of ANH. He's 60 years old, sparred Dooku thousands of times, and was considered one of the best pure swordsmen to ever exist in the Jedi Order. His experience was such that it gave him a distinct advantage over Darth Maul:

His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

--TPM Novelisation

The experience advantage over Darth Maul is best showcased during the end of their duel on Naboo, after Qui-Gon has exhausted the fresh reserve of energy he had acquired via meditation during the interim of the duel. At this point, Maul had edged himself back into the fight, becoming the aggressor. Jinn's reserves were utterly exhausted. In spite of this, his combat experience enabled him to successfully predict Maul's attacks for a further 20 seconds before Maul decided to employ a trick move, bashing Jinn's chin with his hilt. This is even more impressive, considering that Maul is stated to have distinct advantage to his style in that room, making it incredibly hard for Qui-Gon to defend, and Maul was also amped by Naboo's dark side nexus. So:

  1. Jinn is utterly exhausted;
  2. Hindered by the room, making it "incredibly difficult" for him to defend against Maul's style;
  3. Maul is amped further by Naboo's dark side nexus.

Qui-Gon still defends successfully for 20 seconds despite all these disadvantages, meaning that on neutral ground, an exhausted Jinn could last perhaps double that time against Maul's assault, and that's just him exhausted. Evidently, his long experience in lightsaber combat was likely the main reason why he was able to keep up the fight for so long after exhausting his reserves, and that is a level of experience Vader is yet to attain.

CONCLUSION

My opponent states: "[Vader] can utterly annihilate Jinn on every concievable level." (incorrect spelling included) I'm sure that anyone would agree that this is no easy task for ANH Vader. It isn't a stomp, and it's my intention with this post and throughout the course of this debate to sway you as to why Qui-Gon takes the majority.

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#22 Posted by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@meatpants: Good post. TBH this promise to be an awsome fight.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be (313 posts) - - Show Bio

@meatpants: excellent post once again. However, why wasn’t I tagged ( again) despite asking it before?

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#25 Posted by dark-sith123 (5034 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with some things there. Not going to lie. However, that is great stuff, and honestly, the best post in the debate so far by a margin. Interested to see where this goes.

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#26 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

We now must have a running gag of just never tagging cilghal in any thread ;)

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#27 Posted by anti-bully (158 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone please tell me why Cilghal wasn't tagged. Such a fucking injustice.

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#28 Posted by blackpantherisb (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#29 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

Post will probably be up by the weekend but bear with me school is a bitch

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#30 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6435 posts) - - Show Bio

@meatpants:

A New Challenger Appears!
A New Challenger Appears!

Sooooo it appears our dear ISV has lost his enthusiasm for this debate. I will be continuing it in his stead. So let's get to work.

ANH Vader's combative viability is best measured via his relative parity to Ben Kenobi, as showcased during their duel in ANH. Taking into consideration all the source material pertaining to the battle, both combatants are portrayed as relative equals, with Ben possessing the overall advantage. They were at least equal, as confirmed in a number of sources:

And this would be relevant if Ben and Qui-Gon were connected in any relative way.

Therefore, they're shadows of their Jedi incarnations, and so their levels on the Gillard scale can be safely discarded. Qui-Gon has shown himself to be capable of matching Darth Maul, a level 8 on Gillard's tiers (I bring up Gillard because my opponent has used his tiers as an argument) and is capable of fighting him for well over a minute before being cut down. Frankly, there's no indication that suited Vader as of ANH is capable of replicating this, let alone beating Qui-Gon.

And George Lucas thus did say

From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

George Lucas in Rolling Stone

Completely cutting off this idea at the head. Want to know what Dooku and Maul have in common?

Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves,

it's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.

Nick Gillard

So keeping in mind that the tiering system was made by Lucas himself, what do you think he's saying when he says Vader's power was "like" Dooku's and Maul's? Vader is an 8. We can stop right here really as Qui-Gon is a 7. But let's keep going.

Ergo Vader as of ANH is widely sub-par with his lightaber skills.

Highly doubtful. Vader has regularly bested Jedi with great amounts of hype behind them. Roan Shryne, Jax Pavan and Ferus Olin were all masters of all 7 forms and Vader had no issue tooling them all. You seem to be basing this assumption on nothing but Vader's proximity to Ben. What you fail to realise is that Anakin and Obi-Wan in their prime were two of the most powerful force users..... ever. And that even as shadows they are more than a match for even the best.

By Lucas' own words, even as a shadow Vader is proximate to Dooku and Maul, two of the greatest apprentices of their respective orders.

He's arguably only inferior to Dooku, Windu and Yoda as of TPM in skill. Maul's technical skill is even greater than this. His training under Sidious was designed specifically to be the perfect physical weapon, he's a master of Juyo and trained fully in the Banite lightsaber arts.

And Vader is proximate to Dooku and Maul. Whom you just stated Jinn is inferior to

This former self, three years before AOTC, indirectly notes that Jinn had mastered the force to such a degree that he was capable of moving faster than Kenobi could track / react to:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life. But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

--Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

AOTC Kenobi didn't have "a chance to move, to help." as Anakin displayed a feat that he had only seen from the great Jedi Masters and Qui-Gon.

Well if you want to play this way? Fine. First let's breakdown the scene itself

Blaster fire erupted from the droids, aimed at Anakin but scattered enough so that he feared for Marit and the others. The squad dropped, scrambling for their blasters. Anakin saw at once his problems. Gillam and Rolai had found blasters and were trying to aim at him as he moved. Fire from the droids was heavy. Marit had ducked behind a starfighter. He did not think he could count on help from her. She seemed dazed.

He saw the smile of triumph on Gillam's face as he retrieved and aimed his blaster, and Anakin's anger returned. He reached out to the Force. He remembered the lessons he had learned from Soara Antana, the great Jedi Master. The Force comes from stillness, she had said. Find your still center, even in the midst of battle.

He saw time unspool before him like a ribbon. He saw it freeze like ice on a river. He saw that he had infinite time to do everything he needed.

With an outstretched hand he knocked the blaster from Gillam's grasp and sent it flying across the full space of the hangar. It hit the wall so hard it shattered. Gillam's smile disappeared.

At the same time he was moving, diverting the droids' blaster fire from where Tulah and Hurana had taken cover, pushing Ze behind a durasteel container, and knocking out one attack droid with a thrust to its control panel.

Suddenly the laser cannons from the starfighter on his right began to fire. Gillam had slipped inside the cockpit.

Anakin did not lose his sense of frozen time. He was the master of time. He did not worry about the laser cannons any more than he'd worried about the attack droids. It all seemed so easy. He seemed to see the fire before it came, and he knew how to move to avoid it. His movements were like shimmersilk, so fluid it was as though he did not have muscles and bones, only will.

Now his Master was here. He could feel that, too. But he did not need him.

He spun in midair, taking out two battle droids while he leaped through the laser cannonfire straight at the cockpit of the starfighter. With one backward slash he took out the final droid. He had a flash of Gillam's shocked face as he cut through the windscreen with one slice. With one hand, he threw Gillam out of the pilot's seat and then dropped into it. He turned off the engines and disabled the laser cannons.

Siri and Ferus stood, lightsabers drawn, guarding Rolai, Marit, Hurana, Tulah, and Ze. Obi-Wan had captured Rana Halion.

Across the space, he looked at his Master. He waited for Obi-Wan to acknowledge him. The mission was over. He had been successful. He had found Gillam and thwarted an invasion.

He waited, standing in the cockpit, looking down. He could feel the flush of triumph on his cheeks. Siri glanced at him, as did Ferus. He could see the astonishment on their faces. But his Master never looked up.

School of Fear

So first let's make clear that Obi-Wan only arrived halfway through Anakin's little display. In all Obi-Wan saw Anakin take out three droids and pull away Gillain. Obi-Wan is merely making a summary of the total of Anakin's efforts. He did not simply stand and watch it.

Second let's be clear that Obi-Wan wasn't unable to react. He was actually capturing Rana while Anakin did this.

So Obi-Wan wasn't being blitzed. He was busy doing something else.

But I want to be nice. So let's say you're interpretation of this feat is legitimate. Let's look at the text just after this

He could see that Siri and Ferus had been just as astonished at Anakin's deep connection to the Force, the way he had seemed to know what was going to happen before it happened, the way he was able to dodge fire before it occurred. Astonished, yes - and disturbed.

School of Fear

Hmmm it seems that Ferus witnessed this little display. Now Ferus had some choice words about another character didn't he?

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Ferus has also seen Soara Antana who is faster than Obi-Wan (AotC)

As quick and agile as Siri and Obi-Wan were, Soara Antana was even faster. Anakin watched in astonishment as her lightsaber cut through three droids with one clean stroke. Ry-Gaul handed the medication case to Tru to safeguard and joined her side.

The Way of the Apprentice

And Obi-Wan, in all areas of augmentation, is better than Qui-Gon

He felt the Force surrounding Obi-Wan in front of him, and it seemed to vibrate around them in the enclosed space, giving them strength and agility.

Qui-Gon saw a fractured beam of light ahead. They were approaching the grate.

Obi-Wan blasted through the opening so fast he seemed just a streak to Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon swung himself out.

The Captive Temple

Qui-Gon reached over and hit "copy" on the computer console. FILE COPIED flashed on screen. He reached out to extract the disk just as two droids headed toward him, flanking him on either side.

Obi-Wan moved before Qui-Gon could react. He jumped in the midst of the heavy attack, his lightsaber a constant arc of movement as he deflected the barrage of blaster fire.

Legacy of the Jedi.

But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down

TPM Novel

Including strength

He hit Xanatos in midair. Their bodies connected like mountains of hard rock. There was no give to Xanatos' muscles, no yielding in Qui-Gon. The clash was titanic. Qui-Gon felt the shock of it move through his bones. For a moment, Xanatos gripped Qui-Gon's arm, forcing them to remain entangled.

The Day of Reckoning

Qui-Gon hits Xanatos mid-air and can't budge him

Several years pre-TPM Kenobi on the other hand

Suddenly, Obi-Wan's lightsaber whirled. Qui-Gon was astonished at how quickly and gracefully the boy moved, leaping off a mound of lava to strike at Xanatos. Xanatos stumbled backward from the ferocity of the attack.

The Day of Reckoning

And this was done with an injured leg

Obi-Wan limped slightly as he headed toward them

The Day of Reckoning

So let's give you this feat and see where it leads us

Vader >> Soara Antana > AotC Kenobi >/= SoF Anakin > TPM Kenobi > Qui-Gon.

That's quite a few degrees of separation. So not only does this feat not show what you think it does. But even if it did. It only serves to further the gap between Vader and Jinn.

This isn't even touching Vader's own actual force feats. Throwing shuttles aside like playthings

With a supreme effort of will, the Jedi felt the local time currents around him, stirred them to eddies, then dropped and rolled beneath the fuselage of a small shuttle that lay between him and the Aethersprite.

........

The deafening groan of metal from behind him caused Jax to turn. The small vessel he’d just rolled beneath was ripped from her moorings and flung aside as if she were a bit of stray debris. Darth Vader came at him out of her wake, his Sith weapon shedding lurid light.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Or TK'ing 3 Jedi simultaneously

Quite frankly Qui-Gon has no business competing with Vader in this area. Not a single TK feat to his name matches what I have just posted.

Qui-Gon's experience in lightsaber combat still outstrips that of Vader as of ANH. He's 60 years old, sparred Dooku thousands of times, and was considered one of the best pure swordsmen to ever exist in the Jedi Order. His experience was such that it gave him a distinct advantage over Darth Maul:

His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

--TPM Novelisation

Doubtful. By ANH Vader had wracked up experience against many opponents within and beyond Qui-Gon's league. Such as the Dark Woman, Someone who Palpatine deemed too dangerous for someone like Mara, who is comparable to Ventress.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Jax Pavan. A master of all 7 forms who had sampled from Ramages holocron

Roan Shyrne someone with 30 + years of experience

Shryne was still a master with a sword, and almost thirty years of training had honed his instincts and turned his body into an instrument of tremendous speed and power.

Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader

Training Galen Marek to be nearly perfect in lightsaber combat

Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Most tellingly as mentioned above, Vader was able to recreate a Qui-Gon module for Proxy, meaning Vader clearly has knowledge of Jinn's form. Giving Vader the advantage. As for Vader's style itself, well even by 19 BBY

Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed

Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader

And Vader only advances from here.

But the fact remains, that as far as experience goes, the force is better. Despite this experience, Jinn's power could not hold up to Maul's and in trying to match it he burnt himself out. And against Vader, Qui-Gon would burn out quick.

Let's make a simple comparison, using Aurra Sing

Jinn Vs Sing

1, 2, 3.

To summarise, Sing nearly killed them

No Caption Provided

Jinn's experience, his instinctive, intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him, was unable to predict Sing's attacks nor yield any significant advantage. Panel 2 even has Jinn just standing there going "....." unable to respond to Sing's attack.

Compare that too

Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again.

“The reflexes of an animal,” Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. “That’s what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals.”

“Domesticated? I’ll show you who’s domesticated!” She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.

In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord’s touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done.

Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows

Then let's factor in that Sing has likely increased in ability in the 20 years between her encounters with Jinn and Vader and the picture becomes damn clear.

We have a clear cut example of Vader, easily stomping an opponent who had shown she could get around Jinn's experience, in a weaker iteration.

Even if you want to go feat by feat for Sing in terms of speed, she also has matches to Jinn in that area as well

Sing was right behind her. Spinning, whirling, jumping, she deflected every shot fired in her direction. A glimpse at one of her doppelgangers showed her lightsaber moving so fast, she appeared to be engulfed in a sphere of green fire.

Coruscant Nights II: Street Of Shadows.

To sum it all up.

Lightsaber skill: Vader is a master of all forms and can switch between them easily and effortlessly, he easily scales above and has stomped people who have nearly killed Jinn. Jinn's experience will help him no more here than it did against Maul. It will let him survive. And that's it

Force Power: Vader has monumentally better TK feats and scaling. His augmentation is such he can stomp people with similar speed feats to Jinn and scales far above that. As per the rules of the debate.

  • Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. For example, a feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.

Vader can and will, ragdoll Jinn if it comes down to it.

Holistic standing: George Lucas himself has stated that Vader is comparable to Dooku and Maul. Two 8's to Qui-Gon's 7.

And that's Game. Set and Match.

Vader wins

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#32 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post.

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#34 Posted by Lan_Fan (17177 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait what?

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#35 Posted by WolfCub77 (67 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by Lord_Tenebrous (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks pretty on its face, and Grey's cause is correct, but when you stop to think about it, this is a trash post in all honesty.

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#37 Posted by Kilius (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice post and good initiative. I kind of feel you are reaching in regards to 44 BBY Kenobi's "superior augmentation" feats but good read nonetheless.

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#38 Posted by WolfCub77 (67 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfcub77:

I'll tell you a few things in PM, as I do not wish to derail this thread, and this is not my debate.