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#1 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Edited by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:

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J'onn J'onzz, The Last Of His Kind

The last of the Martians, J'onn J'onzz is the most powerful member of the 7 original Justice League members. Born on Mars, he became a Manhunter. A Martian cop. Then his people died, yadda yadda. He made his way to Earth, then became kick-ass. Joined the Justice League, died, came back. Then got rebooted and never joined the League, but was still kick-ass.

The Martian Manhunter

J'onn has a plethora of abilities. J'onn's abilities include, but are not limited to:

  • Potentially Unlimited Strength
  • Super Speed
  • Super-Human Durability
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Invisibility
  • Phasing
  • Heat Vision
  • X-Ray Vision
  • Enhanced intelligence

Here I'll post some preliminary feats.

Speed:

I just wanted to show how much faster J'onn can perceive things than you. Even when using TP

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Here in AC #774 Martian Manhunter pulls Superman in the astral plan and has an entire conversation with him, where they even start to travel to different places, all within a 6th of a second. This is just one of the reasons J'onn is faster than you. Even when using his TP. So reading your mind, then acting upon what he's learned will literally be no challenge. But we'll touch upon this specific point later.

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JL Task Force #32, Martian Manhunter is ejected out of a spacecraft going 8 times the speed of light. Which is impressive in its own right, seeing as that's a durability feat. But then he proceeds to fly and catch up to the spacecraft. Which means that he's gone faster than the ship, which is 8 times FTL. But then he proceeds to tag the spacecraft. Which is an excellent reaction feat. Nothing Loki can every hope to replicate.

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And here we have an excellent scan of Martian Manhunter speed blitzing every white Martian on earth. And I'll show you just why that's an impressive feat.

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Here's a white Martian speed blitzing SUPERMAN. Even though Superman knew she was coming. And she easily damaged him. And to think that Martian Manhunter was easily able to one-shot these white Martians, and speed blitz them, is a great way to give an idea on how powerful Martian Manhunter is.

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The first scan shows Martian Manhunter keeping up with Superman and the Flash. That alone is a feat that shows he should blitz your Loki with ease. (However, Wonder Woman was amped, that's the only reason she could keep up.) The next scan shows Martian Manhunter keeping up with a bloodlusted Wally West. This combat speed is nothing anyone on your Loki can replicate, and shows how superior J'onn is to your Loki.

With that, I believe I've proved Martian Manhunter faster than your Loki and could blitz them with ease.

Strength:

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  • In the first scan, we can see Martian Manhunter punching Superboy Prime and harming him. Considering someone like Superboy Prime is on par with villains like Larfleeze and Thanos and has striking feats through the roof. However Prime was weakened in this instance
  • The second scan shows Superman being staggered and pushed into a wall due to J'onn's punch.
  • Now here, in the third scan, we see Martian Manhunter beating up heavyweight tanks, this striking feat was done upon Doomsday, which is again, more durable than Loki. In fact, Martian Manhunter was beating Doomsday until he gained a deus ex machina (Fire breath)
  • This fourth scan shows Martian Manhunter one-shotting Captain Marvel when he was mind control (Although they tussled a little bit beforehand)
  • And this feat is J'onn tackling Amazo, with the entire Justice Leagues power within him.
  • The last one is Martian Manhunter's Hulk impression.

Durability:

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  • Here J'onn Tanks an attack that destroys molecules.
  • Then in the next two scans an explosion that KO's the rest of the Justice League leaves J'onn conscious.
  • J'onn regenerates from being a tiny drop.
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#3 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn- said:

@zetsumoto: Meh, I'm done, it's just an opener.

Don't underestimated the weight first impressions.

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#6 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V this gonna be good.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5a46927fc5463 (2849 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

Bamf

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#9 Edited by shirso (3853 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

You ask me why I did what I did? Ask, rather, why the serpent Nidhogg eats the roots of Yggdrasil -- Why, when the tree's death means, in turn, the dragon's ruin? Because, Thor, I keep telling you -- That is what it was born to do .
You ask me why I did what I did? Ask, rather, why the serpent Nidhogg eats the roots of Yggdrasil -- Why, when the tree's death means, in turn, the dragon's ruin? Because, Thor, I keep telling you -- That is what it was born to do .

Powers:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, durability, intelligence, and skill
  • Asgardian Physiology
  • Energy manipulation
  • Size manipulation
  • Shape shifting
  • Invisibility
  • Intangibility
  • Elemental manipulation
  • Summoning
  • Illusions
  • Replication
  • Telepathy
  • Hypnosis
  • Teleportation
  • Telekinesis
  • Strength sapping/transfer
  • Soul transfer
  • Astral projection
  • Binding/cursing/enchanting/spell breaking
  • Clairvoyance
  • Transmutation
  • Animation
  • Healing
  • Resurrection
  • Temporal manipulation

The Basic Lore:

Loki is the Norse god of mischief, and one of the most powerful magical beings in existence. His knowledge of the mystic arts has said to rival even the likes of powerful multiverse entities such as Dormammu. Loki has a massive variety of powers, far too many to cover in a single CaV.

Loki's Speed:

I could go over things like his physical strength and durability. However doing so would be rather pointless, since it would not actually factor into the battle. Though easily able to compete with other high tier powerhouses in brawls, Loki's true strength lies in his absurdly versatile magics.

Which brings me to my first point. Loki's spells activate instantly. He casts them as fast as he can think:

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So how fast does Loki "think"? It's been stated to be a "speed beyond all reckoning", and has allowed him to perceive, turn into energy, and intercept radio waves. A quick google search on the speed of radio waves, and you'll see that they are light speed:

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As for Loki's actual physical speed (which would also be a testament to his speed of thought I might add), Loki is capable of keeping up with the likes of Silver Surfer while flying around the entire world, and even intercept the Surfer with his teleportation. Silver Surfer is well known to be an extremely fast character (Capable of moving at FTL speeds in combat, as well as think/react in nano-seconds). Not only was he visibly using his speed during this encounter, but he also failed to react to Loki's surprise attack:

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As for speed in combat, he has shown to casually dodge and troll the likes of Thor:

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As much as Thor the Slowdinson has become a meme on vine, the fact of the matter is that the speed of Thor's actual strikes really are incredibly fast, and he has shown on many occasions to be capable of trading blows with FTL characters.

He has reacted to attacks in micro-seconds, kept up with Gladiator, deflected numerous energy attacks with his hammer, and swing at twice the speed of light.

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Issues With Your Speed:

Speed of Thought:

Your first feat shown was Martian Manhunter's speed of thought in the astral plane. Aside from the fact that I have also shown that Loki can think at absurd speeds; what you have shown is a basic trope when dealing with the astral/mental plane. Loki himself has stated that time doesn't move normally in the astral plane, and has flown massive distances that he would have been incapable of otherwise:

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The fact that time and distance in the Astral plain is meaningless has even been shown true for a young Magik who was far weaker and less experienced than Loki when dealing with the Astral plain:

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Your Other Speed Feats:

I'll start by saying that you have a lot of scaling with no explanation as to how fast these characters usually are when in combat. I am not an expert on DC characters, but I have been told numerous times that even the faster powerhouses typically only fight at around light speed. That is well within the realms of what Loki can handle.

With that said, there are 2 feats in particular stand out to me.

The first is your feat involving the 8 times faster than light space ship. Aside from that being travel speed and not combat speed (Silver Surfer for example can fly distances of light years in seconds, but is nowhere near that speed when fighting), when being ejected from a moving body the the ejected object retains the momentum. You didn't exactly show the specific scans in which he was ejected, but unless there were some off panel circumstances that you did not show; he would have already been moving at around 8 times light speed when ejected, and would have had that speed added onto his own when accelerating to get back to the ship.

Blood-lusted Wally West:

This one I take especial issue with. First off, even if it were true (which I'll explain why it's not very quantifiable), it would likely be little more than PIS. Speed is Wally's specialty, and the main ability that puts him up there with physical powerhouses like MM. While I can see some random Martian Manhunter writer putting a scene like this in his comic, I highly doubt such a thing would ever happen in Wally's own series.

With all that said, lets take a closer look at the scan:

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We aren't shown anything about this fight other than blurs. They don't even leave that small little radius so Wally wouldn't even be capable of building any significant amount of momentum to perform a powerful striking attack. For all we know MM is moving as fast as he can (which is blurs from our point of view); and Wally (who is clearly not thinking straight) is simply dancing around what he sees as a mere statue and uselessly barraging it with a bunch of weak punches.

The Actual Battle:

As Loki has basic knowledge for this fight, he will know much of the basics surrounding Martian Manhunter's abilities. With this in mind, Loki will have 2 goals for this fight:

First, is not getting hit. Not because he wouldn't survive, but because getting hit hurts. Loki is actually physically immortal to a level in which he can even comeback in astral form after complete bodily destruction:

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The second task is disabling your telepathy, as right now it's MM's only method of putting down Loki long term...

The Initial Blitz:

Loki has a number of ways of dealing with the situation and more than enough combat experience to select the right tool for the job.

He could simply render himself dimensionally intangible (and invisible):

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He can turn himself into pure energy:

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He could generate force-fields powerful enough to save Thor from Grendel and his army:

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Or he can trap you with a simple binding spell. His magics have bound the likes of powerful mystics like doctor strange, and has even prevented frost giants from getting through a mere wooden door:

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Hell... Even Sylvie, a character created entirely by Loki's Magics, has restrained and banished powerhouses as physically strong as Sentry:

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It's also worth noting that as of late Loki's go to weapon for a melee confrontation is that of a Fire Sword:

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While I have heard that Martian Manhunter's fear of fire has become a tad bit more manageable, this should still send him deeply off his game.

Eliminating Your Telepathy:

First off, Loki is an extremely powerful telepath who can easily contend with Martian Manhunter. He has mentally staggered the likes of a young Doctor Strange and has even able to temporarily hold his own in a clash with Odin, a skyfather, "across every conceivable astral and metaphysical plain".

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With that in mind, Loki does not like to play fair. As such, he has spells which can effect the mind and turn the tide of the telepathic battle. These spells can drastically slow thoughts, and even induce hallucinations in the minds of a skyfather level being:

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Such an effect would be made drastically worse if Loki were to somehow discover Manhunter's fear of fire. He could discover it either by accident (in drawing his flame-sword), or via mental probing after already effecting Manhunter's mind with a spell. In fact, in one of the above scans he has already shown that it's in character for him to induce flame hallucinations as a form of intimidation (even against someone as powerful as Borr who is impervious to normal flames).

Again, these are not normal telepathic attacks. It takes more than simply having a strong mind to resist such abilities, it also requires the ability to resist magic. With that said, there is already a precedent in DC proving that Martian Manhunter is vulnerable to spells that effect the mind. Here is completely hijacked by the magician, Arion:

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Summary:

  • My character specializes in magic. While your character may not be as weak to magic as like say, Superman, he also has not shown to be especially resistant to it. In fact, he has even shown to be effected by the exact same type of spells that Loki specializes in.
  • Furthermore, my character has no need for a physical body. The only method that Martian Manhunter has of killing Loki is through a telepathic battle, which Loki has proven to have counters for.
  • I haven't even gone over half the abilities that Loki has at his disposal. He has shown everything from blast powers that can 1 shot high level bricks, to transmutation attacks that can 1 shot skyfathers when caught unawares. MM may have superior physicals, but Loki is simply far more versatile.

@revan2424/@necronn- Your move!

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#11 Posted by nfactor1995 (12828 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Edited by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does everybody try to exploit fire?

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#13 Posted by foxerdes (9960 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#14 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn-: Honestly, I just threw it out there. It's not really that big a part of my post.

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#15 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#16 Edited by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

Martian Manhunter is weak to fire. That's the argument made by almost everyone lol

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#17 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@linsanel_doctor: To be fair, all I said is it might throw him off his game a bit.

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#18 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V again.

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#20 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Moderator
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#21 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn-: @revan2424 Umm.... Bump?

I kind of want to make a couple amendments to a my wording in certain areas. If you are going to take a while, do you mind if I do that?

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#22 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Do it soon. My post will be up eithet today or tommorow.

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#23 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9288 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Moderator
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#25 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by D_Aarthir (58 posts) - - Show Bio

Spite. Mismatch.

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#27 Posted by kgb725 (18372 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

Online
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#28 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18240 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#29 Edited by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Slaufeyson?

Oh boy, here we are. Loki is supposed to be able to keep up with J'onn? I strongly doubt it.

Which brings me to my first point. Loki's spells activate instantly. He casts them as fast as he can think:

Your only source of proof is a Silver Age scan in which it is said that he casted his spell at the speed of thought? Come on buddy. During the Silver Age 'speed of thought' is something thrown out like candy. Especially within Marvel. This is a very iffy point, and to center the majority of your post around it? Not the greatest move. You should know better than that.

I mean if we're gonna use that logic, then I'm guessing that the Human Torch, a mid tier, is also lightspeed.

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Or another for example, Cyclops' father Corsair, who's also cited as being as fast as thought. Is he also lightspeed? Despite the fact that Corsair is a human, with no special powers or abilities? In fact Corsair is street tier, also having no place in this battle, yet he is apparently supposed to be as fast as Loki? You need better more concrete speed feats than the ABC-esque logic you've placed before me.

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Or how about Namor? I'm not entirely sure about Namor's abilities, or skills, but I know for sure he's not lightspeed, (Unless he is, then I feel stupid) and he's just mid-tier (high mid-tier).

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I have more scans, if you'd like, but I believe I've made my point.

So how fast does Loki "think"? It's been stated to be a "speed beyond all reckoning", and has allowed him to perceive, turn into energy, and intercept radio waves. A quick google search on the speed of radio waves, and you'll see that they are light speed:

The 'speed of thought' blurb doesn't mean how fast that specific character thinks, however, in Silver Age Marvel, it's more of a hyperbole. Or just a way of saying "fast". And besides it doesn't say "at the speed that he thinks" (referring to Loki) so for all we know this could very well be pertaining to how fast a human thinks.

And as for that radio wave scan, Loki wasn't catching them, for he intercepting them, as they we travelling. The waves are illustrated as a constant stream, which means they aren't something Loki has to go at that speed to intercept. This is not a speed feat. And if it is, it's iffy at best. And the "speed beyond all reckoning" feat isn't really quantifiable. So. . . .yeah.

Let's stop with the inconsistent Silver Age feats, and use some modern ones? How about in Spider-Man #503 Loki can't tag Spider-Man?

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As for Loki's actual physical speed (which would also be a testament to his speed of thought I might add), Loki is capable of keeping up with the likes of Silver Surfer while flying around the entire world

This feat also isn't very quantifiable. I mean, come on. Everyone knows that Surfer is the Lord of the jobbers. For instance, Iron Man was able to do the exact same thing. Does that put classic Iron Man on that level? It's hard to gauge how hard Silver Surfer was jobbing, or if he was at all. But I'm guessing he wasn't FTL judging by the lack of actual FTL feats you've provided.

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Silver Surfer is well known to be an extremely fast character (Capable of moving at FTL speeds in combat, as well as think/react in nano-seconds).

Surfer is also known to job like an Asian immigrant (Get it? [I'm Asian so it's not racist]) It's foolish that you chose to ignore that. Especially when it's pretty detrimental to that feat.

As for speed in combat, he has shown to casually dodge and troll the likes of Thor

As much as Thor the Slowdinson has become a meme on vine, the fact of the matter is that the speed of Thor's actual strikes really are incredibly fast, and he has shown on many occasions to be capable of trading blows with FTL characters.

He has reacted to attacks in micro-seconds, kept up with Gladiator, deflected numerous energy attacks with his hammer, and swing at twice the speed of light.

Not really. All because he can trade blows with FTL characters, doesn't make his strikes FTL. Street levelers can do the same thing. Unless you have a direct citation for him STRIKING at FTL speeds, then it doesn't make any sense to say so. Do you know how many people have avoided Thor's strikes? In fact I'll dissect your scans.

The first one seems a bit inconsistent, as Thor doesn't regularly exercise that speed. But it stands as a legitimate feat. However your second one just stands to bolster my points. Did you even look at the scan? It shows Gladiator BLITZING Thor in the last panel. Someone like Gladiator, who's also a huge jobber, should be hit, if Thor consistently strikes FTL. But unfortunately for you, he doesn't. In fact Gladiator wasn't hit once by Thor in that scan, bud. In fact Glads pretty much admits he's jobbing. The third is Thor stopping a stun blaster. Something street levellers consistently do. Not impressive in the slightest. The fourth was weird. The Phoenix is another jobber, whose power is only decided by the plot. One minute she can't take out Quasar, the next she's besting Galactus. And that reaction feat also isn't quantifiable. The last isn't a striking feat. It's Thor building up centrifugal force to swing his hammer at FTL speeds. Still not a striking feat.

With all this, you've not proved Loki is anywhere near FTL. Come on buddy. You can do it,

You dare doubt the Manhunter?

Aside from the fact that I have also shown that Loki can think at absurd speeds

No you haven't. You just presented some bogus or non-quantifiable feats, about how fast Loki can think.

what you have shown is a basic trope when dealing with the astral/mental plane. Loki himself has stated that time doesn't move normally in the astral plane, and has flown massive distances that he would have been incapable of otherwise

Eh, fair enough. It doesn't affect my argument. It was C/P'ed from another CaV.

Muh other feats?

I'll start by saying that you have a lot of scaling with no explanation as to how fast these characters usually are when in combat

Tell me which feat, and I'll provide a citation, happily.

I am not an expert on DC characters, but I have been told numerous times that even the faster powerhouses typically only fight at around light speed.

I've also been told that the Holocaust was a hoax. But without proof, both statements are baseless.

That is well within the realms of what Loki can handle.

I still await for you to prove so. Which you haven't. Like at all.

The first is your feat involving the 8 times faster than light space ship. Aside from that being travel speed and not combat speed (Silver Surfer for example can fly distances of light years in seconds, but is nowhere near that speed when fighting), when being ejected from a moving body the the ejected object retains the momentum. You didn't exactly show the specific scans in which he was ejected, but unless there were some off panel circumstances that you did not show; he would have already been moving at around 8 times light speed when ejected, and would have had that speed added onto his own when accelerating to get back to the ship.

That would make sense. If J'onn actually retained the momentum. But actually he stopped in space, shot Gypsy with his martian vision, then proceeded to catch up with the ship, far after it had left.

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This one I take especial issue with. First off, even if it were true (which I'll explain why it's not very quantifiable), it would likely be little more than PIS.

Eh, It really doesn't matter. Since you haven't provided any real combat feats to rival Martian Manhunter, I'd be fine with dropping this scan/point.

The Martian Manslaughter:

First, is not getting hit. Not because he wouldn't survive, but because getting hit hurts. Loki is actually physically immortal to a level in which he can even comeback in astral form after complete bodily destruction:

That's a laugh. Because in Thor #79 - Letting Go, Loki looked pretty fricken' dead. After getting one-shotted by Desak, Loki got vaporised, and even Odin-Force Thor knows he's not coming back.

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For a guy that can't be killed by physical attacks, he just got pretty killed by a physical attack. But that's not where it stops. Loki has been killed numerous times. How about in Siege: Embedded #4 - Siege: Embedded, Part Four, where Loki was also killed. In fact he had to come back as kid Loki.

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But even after that, as kid Loki, the bastard STILL died. In Journey into Mystery #645 - Everything Burns Aftermath, Loki was killed.

In fact you've not provided issue numbers to back up your unsubstantiated claims, because Loki OBVIOUSLY can be killed by physical attacks. You probably just got some out of context scans from a respect thread. But if you DO know the context of your scans, please do share them with me.

Loki has a number of ways of dealing with the situation and more than enough combat experience to select the right tool for the job.

He could simply render himself dimensionally intangible (and invisible):

No worries. In Justice League Task Force #27 J'onn was able to attack the Ray, a being who can render himself intangible, with his martian vision. Your intangibility is easily countered. Just like your invisibility. I mean, really? Not gonna bother with that.

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He can turn himself into pure energy:

Also not a problem.

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In his solo series, J'onn battles a vampire in her energy form, and puts her in her body all with TP. I see no reason fro J'onn to just put Loki back where he was.

He could generate force-fields powerful enough to save Thor from Grendel and his army:

Intangibility. . . . .

Or he can trap you with a simple binding spell. His magics have bound the likes of powerful mystics like doctor strange

His magic held Strange for like 2 seconds, until it shattered . Not really what one would call impressive. And once again, Intagibility should work here as well.

and has even prevented frost giants from getting through a mere wooden door:

Loki reinforced the doors so they couldn't get in. Nowhere does it say they actually went to the door. And he even notes that they may be weaker than they were before.

Hell... Even Sylvie, a character created entirely by Loki's Magics, has restrained and banished powerhouses as physically strong as Sentry:

Intangibility. . . . .

It's also worth noting that as of late Loki's go to weapon for a melee confrontation is that of a Fire Sword:

While I have heard that Martian Manhunter's fear of fire has become a tad bit more manageable, this should still send him deeply off his game

No, and no. A Fire Sword? Really? You're exploiting that? Anyway, Martian Manhunter can just turn his TP off for a few microseconds, which eliminates his fear of fire, then just take away the sword, before you can react. As seen in Martian Manhunter #0 - Pilgrimage

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The telepathic battle:

First off, Loki is an extremely powerful telepath who can easily contend with Martian Manhunter.

You doubt the Manhunter? Foolish.

He has mentally staggered the likes of a young Doctor Strange

That's not very impressive. Seeming as this is a silver age feat, it's about as consistent as the Dragon Ball timeline. Which isn't consistent at all. In fact most of your feats are silver age. Which is a time where people like Thor are destroying stars, then losing to the Fantastic Four. When he's swinging his hammer twice the speed of light, then getting outsped by Daredevil. It's funny really, how you can only use the most inconsistent of feats. How about something from recent years? But that Loki doesn't have the insane feats does he? You're highballing pretty bad.

But regardless, It's nothing that Martian Manhunter can't replicate.

I'll have to educate you on how powerful Martian Manhunter's telepathy is.

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Reaches into the SPECTRE's mind and pulls him into the astral plane. In JLA #35 - The Guilty. He also brought along the rest of the Justice League, making this more impressive. Do you need a citation for the power of the Spectre, who is far above Odin, in all regards?

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Or how J'onn subconsciously keeps the entire Martian race on his plane. Just so you know, his entire race is filled with telepaths themselves. He did all of this without actually thinking about it.

Or in JLA #21 J'onn protected his mind from En'Tarans, this guy who at the same time, enslaved an entire planet and the rest of the League. Including Wonder Woman, who's resisted the telepathy of Skyfathers. If you think any of your bogus spells, or tricks are gonna work, think again.

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Such an effect would be made drastically worse if Loki were to somehow discover Manhunter's fear of fire. He could discover it either by accident (in drawing his flame-sword), or via mental probing after already effecting Manhunter's mind with a spell.

Yeah, this would only spell disaster for you. If Martian Manhunter is affected too much my fire, and his genetic blocks are broken, Fernus comes out. And Fernus would stomp Loki, before he knew he was dead.

But even so, J'onn is far too superior to Loki in TP for any of that spell mumbo jumbo to work.

Conclusions:

  • Loki is in no way, shape or form FTL, or near J'onn's caliber in speed, or good looks.
  • J'onn can blitz Loki with ease, and Loki can, and has been killed physically.
  • Even when intangible, Loki will still be tagged by J'onn.
  • J'onn is far superior to Loki in TP.

@zetsumoto, lemme smash.

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#30 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V...

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#33 Posted by ginman333 (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#34 Edited by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio
@necronn- said:

@supremegeneration: What's the ellipses for? Lose 'em if you wanna keep yer kneecaps.

Looking through the debate, there's a few... iffy things.

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#36 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. Tag me for votes.

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#39 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn-: When did you finish this? I never got a tag.

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#40 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn-: @revan2424

No Caption Provided

Loki's Speed:

Your only source of proof is a Silver Age scan in which it is said that he casted his spell at the speed of thought?

Only proof of what? That Loki can cast his spells as fast as he thinks? Yea, I think a direct statement should suffice.

During the Silver Age 'speed of thought' is something thrown out like candy. Especially within Marvel.

So... A lot of characters in marvel can react "automatically" and use their abilities as fast as they can think? Okay... I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty reasonable conclusion to me.

I mean if we're gonna use that logic, then I'm guessing that the Human Torch, a mid tier, is also lightspeed.

lol you can stop there.

I said no such thing. The only thing I implied with the "speed of thought" feat is that Loki casts his spells as quickly as he can think. In no way did I argue that "speed of thought" automatically means "light speed". In fact, at no point did I suggest any speed based purely on "speed of thought" statements.

All I did, was point out that Loki can activate his spells as quickly as he can think. I then proceeded to post tangible feats of him casting spells at light speed (such as when he used magic to intercept radio-waves).

As always, you are way too hasty when it comes to your counters. You smell the slightest bit of blood and you dive head first. You just spent almost this entire section trying to debunk an argument that I never even made. It looks really bad for the voters.

in Silver Age Marvel, it's more of a hyperbole. Or just a way of saying "fast".

I fail to see how it's hyperbolic. It seems like it's a basic way of saying that these characters react without delay. That it's "automatic" or "like clockwork". Being capable of performing actions instantaneously or as quickly as one can think, is the epitome of skill. It makes sense that a lot of characters would be shown as capable of it, and none of your scans contradict this conclusion.

It's pretty clear that Loki can use magic at light speed. I showed him doing so with the radio waves, and I also showed that there's no delay in his cast speed, because he can cast spells with a mere thought.

It doesn't say "at the speed that he thinks" (referring to Loki) so for all we know this could very well be pertaining to how fast a human thinks.

Okay, now you are just grasping.

as for that radio wave scan, Loki wasn't catching them, for he intercepting them, as they we travelling. The waves are illustrated as a constant stream, which means they aren't something Loki has to go at that speed to intercept. This is not a speed feat. And if it is, it's iffy at best. And the "speed beyond all reckoning" feat isn't really quantifiable. So. . . .yeah.

What does it being a "constant stream" have to do with anything?

Loki saw the radio waves (which are light speed), analyzed it, determined that it was heading to the wrong place, intercepted it with magic, then redirected it; all before it could cross the short distance necessary to reach the Baxter building (which would have alerted the Fantastic 4, thus ruining his scheme). That is an FTL reaction feat right there.

As for "Speed beyond all reckoning", it actually is somewhat quantifiable as the full scan also states that "not lightning itself can outstrip the speed of thought" (Referring very specifically to Loki's speed, as he was tricked into trying to catch the manifestation of his own thoughts).

No Caption Provided

So yea, the above scan proves that Loki's perception speed is significantly above lightning, and further feats (such as the radio wave one) show that he can react at light speeds.

How about in Spider-Man #503 Loki can't tag Spider-Man?

Oh please. It's pretty obvious that Loki wasn't even trying. lmao

Just look at him standing there with broody face as Spiderman uselessly punches him in the back of the head.

This feat also isn't very quantifiable. I mean, come on. Everyone knows that Surfer is the Lord of the jobbers. For instance, Iron Man was able to do the exact same thing. Does that put classic Iron Man on that level? It's hard to gauge how hard Silver Surfer was jobbing, or if he was at all. But I'm guessing he wasn't FTL judging by the lack of actual FTL feats you've provided.

That might have been a decent counter had I not shown them speeding around the planet on panel.

No Caption Provided

After the fight stopped, Loki tried to ask for his help. Silver Surfer refused and tried to leave by speeding off. Loki followed him. They went from New York to space, within a single panel and without a single break in conversation.

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I'll admit. Silver Surfer's power does fluctuate quite massively from story to story, particularly when getting matched up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man. However, during his crossovers with Asgard, he is consistently at herald level, because those are the levels he has to deal with in those story arcs.

For example, you can see another instance of Surfer moving at FTL speeds, during his fight with Durok the destroyer (Also, a Surfer-Asgard crossover event). It's also worth noting that Durok is an artificially created entity, powered by a fraction of Loki's own life-force:

Did you even look at the scan? It shows Gladiator BLITZING Thor in the last panel. Someone like Gladiator, who's also a huge jobber, should be hit, if Thor consistently strikes FTL. But unfortunately for you, he doesn't. In fact Gladiator wasn't hit once by Thor in that scan, bud.

lol I knew you'd attack that scan. You are way too over-eager. You should try thinking before you leap. The only reason Gladiator was able to blitz Thor is because Gladiator made an opening by tossing a building at him.

Lets take a closer look at the last 4 panels of the scan:

No Caption Provided
  1. Gladiator tosses a building at Thor.
  2. View point zooms in on Thor about to deflect the tossed rubble as Gladiator comes into view with a full speed tackle/blitz. Note, this view-point is extremely zoomed in, and Gladiator is almost in Thor's face already.
  3. Thor performs a complete swing, deflecting the rubble, all before Gladiator can cross the very short distance necessary to strike Thor.
  4. Gladiator collides with Thor, before Thor can recover from his swing.

It's pretty clear that Thor's swing-speed is CRAZY fast.

If you want more, here's Loki trolling a skyfather level character:

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Yes, I Doubt the Manhunter

You just presented some bogus or non-quantifiable feats, about how fast Loki can think.

They were quite quantifiable, and they also doubled as reaction speed feats.

I've also been told that the Holocaust was a hoax. But without proof, both statements are baseless.

I didn't make any assertions. I was pointing out what I've heard and leaving it to you to prove that your character can fight at the speeds you are claiming he does. So far, I am unimpressed.

Tell me which feat, and I'll provide a citation, happily.

Like... all of them...

You haven't given anything to really quantify Martian Manhunter's actual reaction speeds. You have yielded on the astral plane feat. You have yielded on the Wally West feat.

That leaves the White Martian blitzing feats.

  1. You are scaling an entire species off of a specific white martian feat (As opposed to another nameless fodder martian. Reverse Image search says it's Miss Martian), who in turn is scaling off of Superman's combat speed (who you haven't delved into at all).
  2. Both blitzing feats were flight/travel speed, not combat speed.

The only thing I got from these scans, is that MM can fly around the world at high speeds (something I showed Loki doing). This does not prove he can trade blows or react at ftl speeds. Suggesting so would be like suggesting a fighter pilot has mach 4 reaction timing because that's how fast their planes move.

That would make sense. If J'onn actually retained the momentum. But he actually he stopped in space, shot Gypsy with his martian vision, then proceeded to catch up with the ship, far after it had left.

That's not what your scans say:

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The first scan very explicitly states that they were still being dragged along by the ships FTL inertia. It was supposedly the reason Gypsy hadn't frozen to death (comic book science, lol).

The second scan points out that the entire reason he blasted her away is because, if he didn't, the ship would have gone to far out of his range for him to catch up. Furthermore, if you read the second scan closely, it shows that even with help of the ship's left over inertia, he was incapable of catching up to the ship with pure flight speed.

Instead, he used telekinesis to anchor himself to the ship and slowly pull himself closer as they traveled through space.

So yea, not even Martian Manhunter's flight speed is as fast as you claimed.

The Initial Blitz

Let me guess, you looked up instances in which Loki died and through them up, without bothering to research context?

That's a laugh. Because in Thor #79 - Letting Go, Loki looked pretty fricken' dead. After getting one-shotted by Desak, Loki got vaporised, and even Odin-Force Thor knows he's not coming back.

Yea... I wouldn't exactly call a blast from Desak (A being whose power is to kill gods), wearing cosmically powered Destroyer Armor (A weapon designed to kill CELESTIALS), and further amped by the Designate (a cosmic entity that rivals Odin); a "purely physical attack".

Furthermore, since Thor retconned that event via time-manipulation shortly after it happened, we don't even know for sure if Loki actually died. It certainly wouldn't be the first time Loki has fooled the Odin Force:

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Hell, with a blast that powerful, the fact that an intact skeleton was left behind makes it a pretty damn good energy resistance feat; so thank you for posting that.

Martian Manhunter's powers are neither cosmic nor mystical. They are entirely physical in nature, and as such, Manhunter is incapable of replicating the above feat. The only metaphysical ability Manhunter has is his telepathy. As such, it is your only method of taking Loki down long term.

For a guy that can't be killed by physical attacks, he just got pretty killed by a physical attack. But that's not where it stops. Loki has been killed numerous times. How about in Siege: Embedded #4 - Siege: Embedded, Part Four, where Loki was also killed. In fact he had to come back as kid Loki.

lol you mean the same Void that killed Molecule Man?

You do realize that Loki WANTED to die, right? It has been explicitly stated that Loki could have survived the encounter if he had wanted to:

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The above scans also point out that kid Loki barely has a fraction of his original power, so bringing up kid Loki dying is pointless. They practically aren't even the same character. You may as well low-ball Wonder Woman with scans from the time she was depowered and operating as a street level vigilante.

You probably just got some out of context scans from a respect thread. But if you DO know the context of your scans, please do share them with me.

The first scan is pretty straight-forward. He was decapitated. He put his head back on, and said that that any competent sorcerer would make themselves as hard to kill as possible.

The other feat is from Thor 454. Also, really straight forward. Thor obliterated Loki's body, and Loki simply used his astral form to take over Odin's body as he was in Odin sleep. Thus he got to fake his death and steal Odin's identity all at once.

Fact is, Loki doesn't need a physical body. You can destroy it all you want, he can just use his astral form.

No worries. In Justice League Task Force #27 J'onn was able to attack the Ray, a being who can render himself intangible, with his martian vision. Your intangibility is easily countered. Just like your invisibility. I mean, really? Not gonna bother with that.

Not all intangibility is equal. Ray turns himself into light. Loki uses dimensional phasing:

No Caption Provided

So unless you can prove that Manhunter's lasers are trans-dimensional, you aren't beating that.

In his solo series, J'onn battles a vampire in her energy form, and puts her in her body all with TP. I see no reason fro J'onn to just put Loki back where he was.

First off, he needed a physical body to bind her into. Loki can turn his entire body into energy. Secondly, where is the proof he can do this in combat? You don't even have enough knowledge on Loki to know to do this in the first place.

Also, Loki has already broken astral bindings:

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Binding Spells and Intangibility:

Density manipulation is not true intangibility, nor does it protect against binding magic. Does Manhunter have any feats of phasing through magic shields or binding spells?

Loki's binding spells have bound spirits without physical bodies:

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Silver Surfer also has phasing, but didn't protect him:

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Furthemore, Martian Manhunter's phasing abilities has been countered by molecular manipulation from other characters:

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Loki can manipulate the molecules and density of other people. He has rendered Thor molecularly intangible, removed colors, turned people to glass, and has even reduced a skyfather to snow (and before you bring up that Bor didn't have his mystical defenses up; I'd like to point out that Bor is still an asgardian and a skyfather, while you have no mystical defenses whatsoever):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Just like your invisibility. I mean, really? Not gonna bother with that.

You probably should, because as it stands, Loki's cloaking has fooled characters with far better sensing feats than you have shown for Manhunter. He has hidden from Mephisto in his own realm and hidden for Heimdell (whose perceptions can cross universes).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Martian Manhunter can just turn his TP off for a few microseconds, which eliminates his fear of fire, then just take away the sword, before you can react.

Shutting off your TP won't save you from the mental magics and illusions effecting your mind... If anything, it would make it worse for you.

TP Battle

That's not very impressive. Seeming as this is a silver age feat, it's about as consistent as the Dragon Ball timeline. Which isn't consistent at all.

lol since when has Marvel and DC ever been consistent? I have shown more than enough feats on this level, to prove that Loki that this is how powerful Loki is designed to be.

How about something from recent years?

lol you want non-silver age feats? How about mentally clashing with Odin (1992)?

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Or driving the skyfather, Bor, insane?

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You want some non-silver age combat feats too?

How about soloing the Disir? (who, by the way, have phasing powers)

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Or soloing the entire Thor Corpse + Buffalo Bill and Masterson Thor?

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Or one-shotting Bor with transmutation via surprise attack?

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The Spectre? Really?

Reaches into the SPECTRE's mind and pulls him into the astral plane. In JLA #35 - The Guilty. He also brought along the rest of the Justice League, making this more impressive. Do you need a citation for the power of the Spectre, who is far above Odin, in all regards?

*Complains about inconsistencies, and using feats against Silver Surfer*

*Tries to scale off of the Spectre*---- GG folks. lmao

You do realize that Spectre's power-level varies drastically based on the mental-state of the host and what the Presence wants to happen, right? He's literally designed to be a character whose power-level is whatever the plot needs it to be.

We can't even call it jobber-force, because his inconsistencies are straight up justified by how his power works.

I could post scans of Etrigan tearing his face off, Captain/Shazam brawling with him, batman knocking him out with a kick, Black Alice stealing his powers (same Black Alice who couldn't handle absorbing Satanus), and so on; but instead I'll simply link you to a blog explaining how Spectre's powers work:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/saren/blog/the-batkick-clearing-the-air/78299/

The blogger points out that the host is able to restrain the Spectre's power (and shows the scans proving it). Your own scan shows that the host was remorseful about his actions when Manhunter TPed him.

But yea man. Martian Manhunter abstract multiversal+ psi power confirmed!

Or in JLA #21 J'onn protected his mind from En'Tarans, this guy who at the same time, enslaved an entire planet and the rest of the League. Including Wonder Woman, who's resisted the telepathy of Skyfathers. If you think any of your bogus spells, or tricks are gonna work, think again.

What? The En'tarans isn't "a guy". It's an entire race. They also don't enslave people with mind-control. In-fact, they are explicitly incapable of long-term mind-control. Their TP isn't for controlling people, it's for predicting rebellion ahead of time. All Martian Manhunter did, was prevent them from reading some of his thoughts. It's not like they even brought the full force of their TP down on him either.

Yeah, this would only spell disaster for you. If Martian Manhunter is affected too much my fire, and his genetic blocks are broken, Fernus comes out. And Fernus would stomp Loki, before he knew he was dead

lol as far as I can tell, you might need those feats to compete.

J'onn is far too superior to Loki in TP for any of that spell mumbo jumbo to work.

You say this, yet you haven't shown any feats counter mental magic whatsoever. In fact, you conveniently ignored me posting a scan in which Arion was able to control MM with a spell.

Meanwhile Loki's illusions have effected skyfathers like Bor, Surtur, Odin, and so on.

Manhunter however, has a very bad track record when dealing with mental magics. It's not just the Arion feat either. He has had his senses controlled via magic, and has even been booted out of Zatanna's mind:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

In fact, he seems to have a distinct lack of feats of using telepathy against magical beings period.

Even ignoring the whole magic issue, you are really expecting me to believe Manhunter can telepathically stomp someone who can turn minor psychics into omnipaths that scare even the likes of Xavier?

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Summary:

  • I have shown that Loki is capable of light speed reactions with his magic (again, the radio-wave feat).
  • I have shown more than enough feats prove that Loki can consistently operate at this tier.
  • Your statements about Manhunter's spaceship feat directly contradict what's stated in the scans and you have yielded on 2 of your other speed feats.
  • You have provided no counters for Loki's mental magic or even his magic in general.
  • Your density manipulation is not true intangibility and is easily bypassed by Loki's spells.
  • You complained about me scaling off of Silver Surfer (despite showing on panel how fast the 2 were moving), yet tried to scale off of Spectre.
  • All in all, your feats have been pretty lack luster. I think I have shown more than enough to prove that Loki can react to Manhunter's initial blitz and defeat him via spells (again, something Manhunter seems to be vulnerable against).
  • So far, I haven't seen anything preventing Loki from simply one-shotting you with a transmutation spell.
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#41 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn-@revan2424

Alright, I finished... I am pretty content with just these 2 posts. I don't think there's much more to cover on my end, so after your next post I will probably open for votes. If I do decide to make a third post, it will definitely be my last one. You are free to make another post after that though...

I don't mind having 1 less post than you. Hell... I am not even sure if that opener of yours even counts as a real post. xD

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#42 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13228 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh close

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#43 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio

up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man.

No longer voting. Will still critique both of you, though.

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#46 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man.

No longer voting. Will still critique both of you, though.

I was talking about old Ironman. Obviously Iron-man has hit high tier levels since then. lmao

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#47 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration said:

up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man.

No longer voting. Will still critique both of you, though.

I was talking about old Ironman. Obviously Iron-man has hit high tier levels since then. lmao

I was merely jesting. Not that it earned you any points, but ya didn't lose you any either. He was always a high tier, though.

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#48 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:
@supremegeneration said:

up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man.

No longer voting. Will still critique both of you, though.

I was talking about old Ironman. Obviously Iron-man has hit high tier levels since then. lmao

I was merely jesting. Not that it earned you any points, but ya didn't lose you any either. He was always a high tier, though.

Really? I thought he got various suit upgrades that pushed him into the more superman league powerhouse tier?

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#49 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31454 posts) - - Show Bio

@necronn- said:

@zetsumoto: Oh, shut up.

I wasn't planning on bumping again until next weekend, but I'mma bump just because of this comment.

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#50 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11411 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration said:
@zetsumoto said:
@supremegeneration said:

up against mid-tiers like Thing and Iron-Man.

No longer voting. Will still critique both of you, though.

I was talking about old Ironman. Obviously Iron-man has hit high tier levels since then. lmao

I was merely jesting. Not that it earned you any points, but ya didn't lose you any either. He was always a high tier, though.

Really? I thought he got various suit upgrades that pushed him into the more superman league powerhouse tier?

Even his earliest, gold-only color armors (like armors made right after the cave) were able to take hits from the Hulk and Grey Hulk.