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#1 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
Oliver Queen (youngjustice)
Oliver Queen (youngjustice)
Leon Scott Kennedy (nickzambuto)
Leon Scott Kennedy (nickzambuto)
  • Battle to the death
  • In character
  • No knowledge
  • Most recent versions
  • Standard equipment
BATTLEFIELD
BATTLEFIELD

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#2 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, Young Justice is debating for Green Arrow, and I am for Artemis. Similar battle. tag for votes

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#3 Posted by colliderz (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks interesting tag for votes please

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#4 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by YoungJustice (7318 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: In character but to the death :D Let's do this.

Lol, Young Justice is debating for Green Arrow, and I am for Artemis. Similar battle. tag for votes

LOL, will do.

Okay, the match.

These are the things he would commonly carry around, since this is a random encounter.
These are the things he would commonly carry around, since this is a random encounter.

As soon as the match begins, he would get into cover behind one of the cars, he would prep the net arrow. When you get close to him, he will use his Net Arrow to trap you. He will then use his Grapple arrow to get into one of the buildings. He will then use the Bomb-Arrow to completely diminish you from above. Your turn.

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#6 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@youngjustice: Not a very sound strategy I must say, there's numerous holes in your plan that Leon can easily exploit. For one thing, he's not the Scooby Doo gang. Leon can get out of the net, or even return fire from inside. He'll have plenty of time between Oliver grappling his way up to a rooftop and loading up an explosive arrow, a step of your plan which, while I'm at it, seems pretty pointless overall. That's assuming Leon even gets caught by the net in the first place, which seems pretty unlikely without some kind of distraction, and why would Leon try to bum rush Oliver anyway rather than use one of the dozen firearms he has? You seem to be under the impression that Ollie can treat Leon like cannon fodder, despite the fact that Leon is significantly superior in all physical aspects and has marksmanship to easily rival Green Arrow's, let alone his CQC. If this is your game plan, you've only ensured Green Arrow's defeat. There's a million and one ways Leon can go about countering you every step of the way, and for a man of his intelligence, I have no doubt that he will spot every single one of them. After all, for all his physical skills Leon's most useful tool has been his brain in every appearance he's made thus far.

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Ada Wong makes multiple comments about Leon's intelligence, stating that he is "practically a genius" and "has what it takes to survive overwhelming odds" among other things. The fact of the matter is, the enemies that Leon regularly goes up against are out of Green Arrow's depth. He's never been tested in a situation as desperate as the ones Leon is thrown into in every game. For as intelligent as Oliver Queen is, he has yet to prove that he would be capable of surviving a fight with someone as powerful as William Birkin in an enclosed space and with limited supplies, right after watching the love of his life die in his arms and while simultaneously suffering from a gunshot wound and with only two minutes before the entire area self destructs.

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Leon was able to keep his cool and act quick in this situation despite great physical pain and emotional turmoil, not to mention the fact that Birkin is a terrifying monstrosity.

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Right after receiving the bullet wound Leon was attacked by a gigantic dinosaur-sized crocodile. The writing really paints a picture of how hectic the whole scene was, and despite barely being conscious between the blood loss and the debilitating pain of landing directly on his wound after being headbutted through the air, Leon spotted a propane tank as he was being chased and instantly knew what to do with it. Ada was trying to take the thing on with firepower and saw no other way out, but Leon knew that was pointless instantly and even with his near-ruined arm, he ripped out the 200+ pound canister and survived the ensuing explosion.

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Even when completely cornered by Birkin, Leon still found a way out by climbing atop a speeding train and, rather than battle Birkin yet again, Leon chose to make his way over to Sherry in the control panel and instruct her to stop the train so they could exploit Birkin's lack of mobility and trap him on the train right before it self destructed.

The simple truth is, Oliver has never been forced to cope with a situation as impossible as Raccoon City. It was a city of 300,000, all but a dozen of who were mutated into horrible monsters. An entire private militia was sent into the city and only one member (Carlos) survived; this means that Leon on his very first day as a police officer could do what an army couldn't. After his Government training, Leon became a hardened vet full of one liners who completes all his missions casually. Ada states that his strategic abilities have improved since Raccoon City, a fact which became totally evident when he was sent alone into hostile foreign territory and singlehandedly fought against a nation of super human cultists. That's a true one-man army, and it all comes back to my point about the simple fact that Leon is capable of surviving in far more dangerous environments, and against far more powerful opponents than Oliver is. After all, Green Arrow would not make it through in a zombie apocalypse easily, but Leon survived when he had no experience. Current Leon >>> RE2 Leon; Oliver is somewhere in the middle.

The opponent's Leon has taken on should be enough to say he's on a higher level than Green Arrow. As for my actual strategy, it's a bit more elaborate and (hopefully) a bit more effective than yours. Keep in mind though, I'm not exactly as great a strategist as Leon, so regardless of my specific plan his known tactical abilities should be taken into consideration when we determine who would win.

Now optimally, Leon should bring out his scope and analyze the situation from behind cover.

He can determine all tactically relevant positions, possible sneak attack locations, cover, etc. It's worth mentioning that Leon has already proven he's capable of dodging arrows, even when towing Ashley.

Now of course this doesn't mean he's going to jump out into the open, bum rush Ollie and weave through all his arrows, but it definitely proves that he can outrace 1 or 2 arrows at a time and make it behind cover, just in case he gets caught by surprise.

Additionally, Leon has several psuedo-bullet timing feats that, regardless of marksmanship, still travel considerably faster than any arrow Oliver could throw out.

Leon and Helena

Leon and Helena evade a barrage of automatic gunfire, after the agents had started shooting.

Leon on his own outraces a hailstorm of assault rifle fire from a squadron of highly trained agents. He visibly only begins moving after they've started firing, but even aim dodging from these guys is impressive as the same squad was skilled enough to kill a Licker (one of which has super speed and effortlessly weaves through bullets)

Leon dodges a bullet fired from the Ustanak's cannon and saves Sherry from another.

Leon outraces gunfire from Jack Krauser, a renowned and highly experienced soldier.

This is impressive because Krauser while still human was accurate enough to just barely miss a projectile that was traveling nearly as fast as his own bullet. If he had just a bit more time to aim (he was forced to fire as soon as he brought his arm up) then he undoubtedly would have hit his mark.

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Most impressive of all, Leon during his rookie days was capable of reacting to a bullet fired by Annette, and racing across the room in time to save Ada, before the bullet itself could reach her.

Clearly Leon is pretty speedy when it comes to projectiles, at least enough to maneuver from cover to cover without getting tagged. What this match comes down to in my opinion are the facts that Leon has both better reflexes than Oliver, and far better equipment. The marksmanship difference is negligible, I don't recall Leon ever missing a single shot in the entire series, meaning that Leon has more potential to dodge projectiles (slow arrows + fast reflexes), and a better chance of making one land (fast bullets + slow reflexes(compared to Leon)).

I'd just like people to take a minute and re-read the above paragraph, that's basically my entire argument and the logic seems totally sound to me. If what I say above is true, then I don't really see how Green Arrow could win.

If this match were to come down to CQC, I feel like Leon would win without a doubt having stalemated several of the world's greatest fighters, whereas Green Arrow by comparison is pretty average in DC.

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Svetlana Belikova is the president of the Eastern Slav Republic. Despite catching Leon by complete surprise (he wasn't expecting her to be anything more than a civilian) and the fact that Leon's own style was severely limited to only trying to capture Svetlana, Kennedy still matched her move for move, trading blows at inhuman speed.

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Chris Redfield is a legendary soldier in Resident Evil with more missions completed than any other agent in the entire BSAA. Again, Leon matched him move for move despite only trying to capture him and keep him from killing Ada/Carla, whereas Chris was out for blood.

Leon has all bases covered, Green Arrow can't defeat him.

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#7 Edited by YoungJustice (7318 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Thanks, because I am really really bad at opening posts. You can basically ignore my first post.

Ada Wong makes multiple comments about Leon's intelligence, stating that he is "practically a genius"

Same on both sides. Ollie created every one of his gadgets himself, this includes his various arrows, thermal goggles, and his 3-D map.

For as intelligent as Oliver Queen is, he has yet to prove that he would be capable of surviving a fight with someone as powerful as William Birkin in an enclosed space and with limited supplies, right after watching the love of his life die in his arms and while simultaneously suffering from a gunshot wound and with only two minutes before the entire area self destructs.

While not under those exact circumstances, he was badly beaten by Komodo, yet he still managed to do the things below:

He had arrows going through several parts of his body (leg, arm, shoulder, and side), yet he was able to...
He had arrows going through several parts of his body (leg, arm, shoulder, and side), yet he was able to...
Dodge this arrow at a close range
Dodge this arrow at a close range
and evade several other arrows launched at him
and evade several other arrows launched at him
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#8 Edited by YoungJustice (7318 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I guess that first post is part 1, because CV messed up.

Leon has already proven he's capable of dodging arrows, even when towing Ashley.

There is a major difference between that crossbow and Ollie's bow/arrows. The crossbow takes longer to reload (especially going by how old that crossbow was), then on top of that, most of GA's arrows don't require hitting the opponent directly. Hell, even his low payloads have this big of an explosions.

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So accuracy isn't necessarily a factor here regardless.

Leon has both better reflexes than Oliver

Not by much I'd say.

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far better equipment

In this scenario, agreed.

If this match were to come down to CQC, I feel like Leon would win without a doubt having stalemated several of the world's greatest fighters, whereas Green Arrow by comparison is pretty average in DC.

While Leon is one of the best in his universe, he would be most likely equivalent if he was based in the DC universe.

Ollie was able to pretty handedly defeat multiple armed men:

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Leon has all bases covered, Green Arrow can't defeat him.

Maybe outmatched in combat and possibly reflexes, but he has never been face to face with an explosion to the point where he could have easily died, or had several arrows stuck in various parts of his body and was still able to dodge gunfire.

In the event that Ollie was to pull out an explosive tip and shoot it toward him, Leon wouldn't be able to get out of the way in any situation.

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#9 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@youngjustice:

Thanks, because I am really really bad at opening posts. You can basically ignore my first post.

I figured as much, as long as you don't ACTUALLY think that's how the match would go down :P

I've read through your post, and while I am impressed with your arguments themselves (you're very clean and concise with your points) I haven't seen anything new from Green Arrow himself that Leon doesn't already have covered. You can definitely win this CaV based off better arguments, but you're debating for a losing character.

Intelligence-

Same on both sides. Ollie created every one of his gadgets himself, this includes his various arrows, thermal goggles, and his 3-D map.

While not under those exact circumstances, he was badly beaten by Komodo, yet he still managed to do the things below:

He had arrows going through several parts of his body (leg, arm, shoulder, and side), yet he was able to... Dodge this arrow at a close range and evade several other arrows launched at him

Not same on both sides. Creating technology speaks only for that - creating technology. That makes Oliver smart but that type of intelligence won't help in a battle. Leon's intelligence however revolves only around his ability to strategize and think on his feet.

The second feat is decent endurance on Ollie's part but my feats weren't about endurance, they were about Leon's ability to improvise in a difficult situation.

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Even with his supplies already exhausted, Leon was able to take on two Tyrants at once by thinking on his feet (7:00), and once again instantly knew exactly what to do when he spotted the gas canisters. What's impressive is that Leon was able to tactically maneuver both Tyrants in way of the explosion without exposing Buddy or himself.

At 11:20 in the same video Leon and Buddy are attacked by yet another Tyrant on ground level, while Buddy is looking worried and defeated almost instantly because the monsters just never stop, Leon has already formulated a plan which he fills Buddy in on, proving once again that Leon always knows exactly what to do.

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Here's the missing part of the footage; Leon tells Buddy to use his Lickers to lure the Tyrant over to a gas tanker, and have the Licker jump back and attack at just the right moment to make Mr. X puncture a hole in the tank. Meanwhile Leon is already in position to fire at the Lickers body which is now covered in gas, catching Mr. X in a massive explosion. What makes this so impressive is that in a situation with almost zero supplies left and even less hope, Leon didn't give up and made use of every single available resource. Green Arrow can't improvise to such a degree nor could he have orchestrated such a plan right on the spot. Put Oliver in Leon's shoes and he's dead; by comparison, there aren't many things Green Arrow has done that Leon couldn't replicate.

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Derek Simmons was one of the most powerful creatures in the entire franchise. Leon was skilled enough to not only battle him on even ground, but also simultaneously fend off a small army of zombies. Granted he had Helena as backup, but Derek was for all intents and purposes totally invincible, yet Leon thought of a way to defeat him by exploiting one of his most powerful abilities and turning it into a weakness. At around 3:45 Leon takes a lightning rod, and impales it on a zombie, causing Simmons to be struck by lightning when he attempts to absorb the zombie. At 6:30 after weakening the monster to some extent, Leon takes the several hundred pound lightning rod and leaps several meters into the air with it, impaling Derek's head directly and destroying him with lightning.

Not once has Green Arrow ever faced opponents as powerful as these. Perhaps on the occasional JLA mission he would come face to face with some powerful alien, but never has he been forced to battle an enemy as powerful as either William Birkin, Mr. X, or Derek Simmons one-on-one. Leon however does it in every game, proving over and over again how skilled and resourceful he is; considerably more-so than Green Arrow.

Weaponry-

There is a major difference between that crossbow and Ollie's bow/arrows. The crossbow takes longer to reload (especially going by how old that crossbow was),

I don't see your point. Reloading doesn't affect the speed of the projectile. And what makes you think those crossbows were old? The Los Illuminados had access to technology decades ahead of our time.

then on top of that, most of GA's arrows don't require hitting the opponent directly. Hell, even his low payloads have this big of an explosions.

Leon is smart enough to tell the difference between regular arrows and explosive arrows, he'll notice if Oliver was off target and can escape the blast radius, it's not like he hasn't dodged dozens of bombs and grenades in the past.

Besides, Leon also has access to a wide range of explosives, rockets, mines, and grenades that he can use against Oliver, so it's not like Green Arrow really has any advantage here, especially since he only carries 2 explosive arrows around regularly as your first scan showed whereas Leon has several of each weapon I mentioned.

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As you can see, he wields the RPG Special, which is probably the least accurate weapon of all time, with enough skill to shoot Saddler directly through his eye from across the platform as it's moving around erratically.

Said rocket was also powerful enough to kill Saddler, meaning it's way stronger than Arrow's explosives.

Leon also wields his grenade launcher with similar skill, enough to land on the partially destroyed sections of the upper walkway from an incredible distance, perfectly timed to crush Curtis Miller as it collapses, showing his strategy in conjunction with his weaponry.

If we're going with the 'AOE explosion ftw' strategy, than it's going to come down to who can get behind cover fast enough. Luckily for me, Leon Kennedy's athleticism is consistently displayed as second to none. He's an extremely adept sprinter, capable of outracing not only falling boulders, but even a giant robotic statue attempting to crush him, while simultaneously dodging falling pillars.

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Additionally, Leon has also displayed extensive knowledge in free running and parkour, meaning that he can easily maneuver through the battlefield and over obstacles without slowing down. Obviously this means he can get behind cover much quicker than Arrow can, giving him more potential for surviving the explosion.

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In the above video Leon maneuvers through a crowded platform at high speeds, over and under numerous obstacles without slowing down, and this is right after getting knocked 50 feet away by the G-Monster head first into a metal box.

In the below video Leon is already fatigued and wearing heavy gear, but still easily makes his way over several containers and very impressively jumps over a Licker mid-pounce, then spins around and shoots it before it could react.

Leon

If I can just reference this gif once again, it shows how quickly and efficiently Leon can make it to cover with his acrobatic moves. In a scenario where they both fire explosives at one another, there should be no argument that Leon has more potential to be the survivor, especially when you consider the fact that, worst case scenario, he DOES have the durability to just tank the bomb, as you'll see when I get into his stats.

But enough about that. The idea of them both firing their biggest and most damaging explosives just to get one guy they don't even know sounds pretty out of character IMO. Just because they can doesn't mean they will. It's much more likely that Oliver will use normal arrows for awhile and Leon will bring out his pistol; however even in that Leon has the advantage. His bullets are going to be traveling twice as fast as Ollie's arrows, and he's probably an even better marksman since this is New 52 Green Arrow.

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From 3:07 to 3:20 Leon is able to headshot numerous zombies in almost complete darkness while running down a hall, and from 3:37 to 3:49 he makes headshots from a distance of over 50 yards while barely taking the time to aim.

Leon casually shoots Curtis Miller directly between the eyes with the bullet coming mere inches from Angela as she was obstructing the shot, while upside down hanging from his legs and supporting the combined weight of himself, Angela, and the G-Monster.

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Leon's most impressive pistol feat, Derek Simmons rips up a metal plate and hurls it towards Leon at super speeds. Leon is able to slide on the ground and shoot the plate twice in the exact same spot from the perfect angle so that it just barely flies over Helena's head. That's pretty damn amazing with just a pistol. Consider Leon is also equipped with a variety of different firearms including assault rifles, and Green Arrow has no hope of dodging. He'll be pinned behind cover the entire time, they're probably comparable marksman but Leon's firepower advantage is just overwhelming.

Leon vs Lickers

Leon tags a Licker leaping overhead and shoots two more Lickers through their brains mid-pounce. Lickers have more speed than Green Arrow could ever hope to muster.

You've already seen this part when I was going over Leon's intelligence, but the incredible distance shot is just as impressive. Right after killing the Licker, Mr. X was blocking the target, so Leon first aimed at the Tyrants face, and just as his arms were raised another bullet slid underneath his arm and into the tiny sliver of the Licker's body that was revealed.

I believe I've made more than a suitable case for Leon's marksmanship. He's more of a rival to Post Crises Arrow rather than the beardless current one.

Close Quarters-

I'm honestly not seeing what's so impressive about the scan of Oliver diverting the thugs shot. How on Earth can you rank that as equally impressive to the multiple bullet dodging feats I posted for Leon? Granted, not all of them are bullet timing, but they're still much more impressive than anything Oliver has done.

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The famous laser room from RE4 is the ultimate showing of reaction time and agility. The feat is actually very underrated when you think about it; those laser beams were waving around both vertically and horizontally, with no discernible pattern, and simultaneously racing towards Leon at high speeds. With only a split second to react, Leon was able to analyze the path of every individual beam, find an opening, and maneuver his body through the openings so precisely that his skin just barely missed contact.

Just for comparison, here's Batman avoiding a laser grid which is often looked at as one of his best agility feats. Compared to Leon, his lasers were stationary, and Bruce took several minutes to plan out his maneuvers before jumping in. Leon's feat blows this out of the water, and wouldn't we all agree that Batman is considerably quicker than Oliver Queen?

While Leon is one of the best in his universe, he would be most likely equivalent if he was based in the DC universe.

Ollie was able to pretty handedly defeat multiple armed men:

In comic book universes Leon Kennedy would be the missing link between Punisher/Green Arrow level characters and Daredevil/Batman level characters. If you think that taking down a group goons using trick arrows and a few punches/kicks here and there is equal CQC to stalemating Chris Redfield and Svetlana Belikova, then I'm not sure what to say. If you played Resident Evil 4 than you'd know that's what Leon was doing the entire game, fighting off groups of hostiles while alternating between gunshots and CQC strikes. So the feat isn't really anything special, Leon was able to take down trained soldiers while handcuffed with nothing but a kick and a headbutt.

While still handcuffed and caught off guard by a Ganado, Leon was able to grapple with the super human, disarm him, and kill him with his own knife. Leon went on to murder several more Ganados with the knife.

He was also able to turn the tables on JD when he had a knife to his back and disarm him in a rapid fashion, so it's possible that Leon would be able to disarm Oliver of his bow too.

Granted, Oliver might be a teency tad more skilled than JD, but Leon was also able to disarm characters as skilled as Ada Wong and Chris Redfield, so it's definitely not out of the question.

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Ada sneaks up on Leon and puts a gun directly to his back; that's pretty disadvantageous to say the least, but Leon easily turned the tables and had her dead to rights in only two moves, showing off how quick and knowledgable he is.

Chris, despite his monstrous strength, had his gun thrown out a window before he could react, and when he tried reaching for his sidearm Leon grabbed him by the wrist and just shoved it back in. That's a really great showing of skill, force-holstering Chris's gun back in. I've never seen Green Arrow do anything like that.

I'm hoping Oliver has a bit more to offer than just beating on goons, because if not, Leon will handle him as easily as he handled Ada. I haven't even brought up knives yet but it already seems Leon is at a firm advantage.

he has never been face to face with an explosion to the point where he could have easily died,

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What about this time? Leon was only a few feet away from an entire oil rig blowing up, the explosion was so powerful it lifted both him and Helena off the ground and sent them flying, but Leon was back on his feet before the zombies even had time to reach him. Helena on the other hand was completely unconscious and had to be carried.

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Leon was even able to tank an RPG going off only a few yards away, and then survived getting pummeled by the Tyrant and thrown into a cement pillar.

The same Tyrant who was exploding Lickers with his punches and could lift a tank.

Even after that, Leon still had enough strength to stand on his feet and threaten the Tyrant, telling him "You shouldn't have done that."

or had several arrows stuck in various parts of his body and was still able to dodge gunfire.

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Leon took a few dozen of Simmons' bone bullets to protect Ada which IIRC destroyed a train, and then got back up and kept fighting like nothing happened.

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#10 Posted by Thitiki (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn nice battle so far to the both of you.

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#11 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes.

I wonder if Ollie has a Las Plagas arrow?

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#13 Posted by YoungJustice (7318 posts) - - Show Bio

@youngjustice: Given up I see.

Considering, yes. Have I, no.

I meant to respond yesterday but I went to Six Flags and got sick.

I'll reply in a bit.

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#14 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio