Tien Shinhan is a human warrior from Earth. Trained in the Crane school of martial arts by the hermit Master Shen, most of Tien's life has been devoted to martial arts. Time and time again he has proven himself to be a very competent and tenacious warrior; even as he became outclassed by stronger opponents as the Dragon Ball series progressed, Tien never ceased to keep training and keep fighting.
Skills/Techniques:
As all the Z-fighters in the Dragon Ball universe, Tien has control of his life energy (ki) which he can use to increase his power, fly, and fire energy blasts for offense. Tien was one of the very first characters in the series to use flight and has a wide array of ki attacks that vary a bit from Krillin's arsenal.
Tien's techniques stem from his Crane school training, which differs from Krillin, who was trained in the Turtle school.
Dodon Ray: The Dodon Ray is the signature technique of the Crane school. Fired from the fingertips in an instant, the Dodon is a powerful beam, similar in power to a regular Kamehameha but without the charge time.
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And if that wasn't bad enough, Tien can also use the Kamehameha, while Krillin has never used the Dodon.
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Solar Flare: The Solar Flare is a stunning attack that leaves the opponent very vulnerable. While Krillin has also learned to use this technique with training, Tien is the original user of this technique and its inventor.
Multi Form: The Multi Form technique is a unique ability that splits Tien into four separate fighters. While this ability does split his energy among his clones, the clones still all appear to be able to keep up in terms of speed, and this technique could be useful for overwhelming.
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Four Witches: Unlike the Multi Form technique, the Four Witches technique doesn't appear to have any significant drain on Tien's energy, but still gives him an edge in martial arts. If he is pushed enough, he could easily use this to gain the upper hand (or two :P).
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Tri-Beam: The Tri-Beam (Kikoho) is Tien's ace in the hole. Despite Krillin and Tien's equal power levels, one good Tri-Beam should be enough to take him down. The Tri-Beam has been well-established as being able to hit well, well above the user's weight class.
During the Buu Saga, Tien's Tri-Beam was powerful enough to deflect an attack from Majin Buu. More impressively, though, during the Cell Saga, Tien used the Tri-Beam to hold back and even bruise Semi-Perfect Cell, who at the time was no-selling attacks from the Androids (who themselves were greatly more powerful than Super Saiyans).
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At equal power levels, this attack will be absolutely devastating.
And while the Tri-Beam does drain energy fast and threatens the user's life, these effects have greatly reduced with Tien's training. While initially one ordinary Tri-Beam was a threat to Tien's life, by the Cell saga (as above) Tien repeatedly spammed a more powerful version (Neo Tri-Beam/Shin Kikoho) dozens of times and still survived long enough to be healed with a senzu bean. Currently Tien has been shown to casually use the Tri-Beam on fodder, and with no visible negative effects.
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Tien's versatility in terms of technique and his great skill will easily allow him to keep up with whatever strategic advantage Krillin may have.
Over the series, Tien proved himself to be far more dedicated to improving his skills, continuing his training and being the superior martial artist. He has trained during every arc and it has always been his primary focus.
Meanwhile, Krillin abandoned the martial arts lifestyle in the Buu saga.
...He's a cop now.
Tien is extremely strong willed and never gives up in the event of a threat.
Fighting Nappa he continued to fight even when he was badly injured and only had one arm, and fighting Cell he poured every last bit of energy into attacking him until his death was practically imminent.
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Gameplan:
Tien and Krillin, being in character, will both most likely start off with basic martial arts and simple techniques, where they will find themselves essentially evenly matched. If Tien needs an extra boost, he can use the Four Witches technique to best Krillin in hand-to-hand combat. As the fight goes on, they will begin ramping up in power, and Tien will use his superior versatility to get the upper hand, with his Crane school techniques besting Krillin's arsenal. Eventually, Krillin will be worn down and become discouraged much more quickly than Tien. If the fight drags on for too long, Tien can use the huge area of effect on his incredibly powerful Tri-Beam to wipe Krillin out for good.
Krillin is an Earthling who trained in Kame school with Master Roshi initially in order to impress girls and stand up to his bullies at Orin school. However, during the training, he gradually became an unlikely best friend to fellow student Goku and would eventually become amongst the strongest humans in the series. Krillin is a courageous person and would often try his best regardless of the odds stacked against him to succeed.
Skills/Techniques:
As another a user of Ki, I would like to stress that Krillin has shown a greater mastery for the manipulation of Ki which can keep up with the rest of Tien's flashy techniques.
Kamehameha:
Krillin is also shown to know the signature technique of the Turtle School which can be used to counter Tien's own Kamehameha and Dodon Ray.
Double Tsuihikidan:
The Double Tsuihikidan are ki blasts that have been demonstrated to actually follow an opponent if dodged like homing missiles and can also be used by Krillin as a distraction.
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Scattering Bullet:
The Scattering Bullet is a signature technique that fires off a really powerful wave of Ki that can also be split apart to attack multiple targets. Krillin can split the Scattering Bullet into various smaller but still deadly blasts to give a hard time to Tien.
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Destructo Disk:
Of course, now we have Krillin's ace in the hole: the Destructo Disk (Kienzan).
While it initally took a while charge when he first used it against Nappa, Krillin was later shown to be able to fire off mutiple disks fairly quickly against Frieza.
This is a move so broken, it was shown to be able to slice through anything regardless of any monsturous power gaps, and was never tanked by any opponent in the manga. So it's just as deadly at equal power levels and will be used by Krillin when Tien is off guard.
Solar Flare:
And of course Krillin also knows the Solar Flare (Taiyoken) which can be used to blind Tien.
Tien has a greater likelihood of getting caught off guard with it since Tien has never witnessed Krillin using his move. Plus, Krillin has a greater likelihood of using this move since Krillin tends to exploit weaknesses and play sneaky unlike Tien.
Strategical/Cunning Mind
Krillin is also a strategical genius and combat pragmatist who is willing to do whatever it takes to win.
In the World Martial Arts Tournaments, Krillin was frequently shown to hold his own against far more powerful or versatile opponents by thinking strategically and playing dirty.
When Krillin realized he was outmatched by Jackie Chun, he quickly devised a strategy to exploit Roshi's perverseness by distracting him with panties to deliver a powerful kick.
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Against his match against Goku, Krillin distracted Goku with a Kamehameha with a bigger goal of grabbing Goku's known weakness at the time which was his tail to Goku's surprise.
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When paralyzed by a cheap telekinesis from Chiaotzu, Krillin was able to realize Chiaotzu relied on his hands too much and was able to creatively distract him through math problems.
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And let's remember that Tien's main weakness as pointed out by Goku was that Tien relied on his eyes too much.
Lastly, Krillin has shown no qualms over fighting dirty as long as it guarantees a win.
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Tien is fairly straightforward and predictable in his attack pattern, but Krillin will think outside the box and exploit strategies when at a disadvantage such as disabling Tien's eyes to guarantee a win.
Counters:
Krillin was shown to dodge many Dodon Rays from Chiaotzu.
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Plus, Goku (on equal terms with Tien during there match) was still able to survive relatively unscathed. So it would take more than an implusive Dodon Ray to finish off Krillin.
The Multiform will be useless in this fight since as explained by Goku, it splits Tien's power by 4 which will make it all the more easier for Krillin to oneshot Tien once he exploits the subtracted power and eye weakness.
Note Krillin witnessing this.
The Four Witches technique can give Tien an advantage until Krillin counters it by moving his arms fast enough to react to Tien's arms.
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And outside of the obvious Ki draining drawback of the Tri-Beam, I see no reason for Krillin to just stand there while Tien spends time focusing on him since all of Tien's tags with the Tri-Beam were while an opponent was distracted.
Also, Tien's feat of deflecting an attack from Buu isn't that impressive since it was aimed for Dende and Mr. Satan.
While Tien is constantly training, I wouldn't say Krillin completely abandoned his martial arts training. He still trained extensively for 1 month for the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament, and wasn't commented by anyone in terms of being rusty in both the Buu Saga, or Revival of F unlike Gohan in both of those scenarios.
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So I don't feel Krillin's martial arts skills got Gohan'd by end of series.
And as far as getting discouraged is concerned, Tien didn't even bother trying to counterattacking a stronger attack that could destroy Earth from Buutenks because he felt he was useless...
Whereas Krillin tries his hardest against foes such Nappa, Frieza, and Cell despite knowing full well he's screwed.
So Krillin should ultimately win for having techniques that match Tiens, and exploiting weaknesses to nullify most of Tien's techniques as well as playing dirty to put Tien at a disadvantage.
Krillin's own Kamehameha will be powerful, but it won't easily counter the Dodon Ray, which can be fired very quickly and rapidly. And Tien's Kamehameha will be equally powerful at equal power levels.
Double Tsuihikidan
Scattering Bullet
These attacks are not much more than distraction, as they don't cover very much area and haven't been shown used against opponents of equal strength. And I would point out that Tien has knowledge of both these techniques and their applications, having seen Krillin use them.
Destructo Disc:
Of course, now we have Krillin's ace in the hole: the Destructo Disk (Kienzan).
While it initally took a while charge when he first used it against Nappa, Krillin was later shown to be able to fire off mutiple disks fairly quickly against Frieza.
This is a move so broken, it was shown to be able to slice through anything regardless of any monsturous power gaps, and was never tanked by any opponent in the manga. So it's just as deadly at equal power levels and will be used by Krillin when Tien is off guard.
The Destructo Disc is the biggest threat to Tien, since by all means it should be a lethal blow if Krillin lands a good hit. The issue is that as opposed to Tien's ace, the Tri-Beam, the Destructo-Disc requires a high degree of precision and accuracy to pull off, whereas the Tri-Beam is a massive blast that destroys everything in its path. Krillin has never actually killed anybody with a direct attack with this move, and it should not be too difficult to avoid under normal circumstances. And while the move takes less time to charge, the same is true for the Tri-Beam.
And of course Krillin also knows the Solar Flare (Taiyoken) which can be used to blind Tien.
Tien has a greater likelihood of getting caught off guard with it since Tien has never witnessed Krillin using his move. Plus, Krillin has a greater likelihood of using this move since Krillin tends to exploit weaknesses and play sneaky unlike Tien.
That's an interesting point; Tien has never seen Krillin use the technique as far as we know. However, Tien himself invented the technique and thus presumably has more experience with the move than Krillin. It's more likely that Tien would be able to land this attack before Krillin could do the same to Tien. Plus the fact that Krillin has only used the move to retreat and has (rather infamously) never used the move in combat to follow up with an attack, whereas Tien has plenty of combat experience using the move.
When Krillin realized he was outmatched by Jackie Chun, he quickly devised a strategy to exploit Roshi's pevertedness to distract him with panties to deliver a powerful kick.
Against his match against Goku, Krillin distracted Goku with a Kamehameha with a bigger goal of grabbing Goku's known weakness at the time which was his tail to Goku's suprise.
When paralyzed by a cheap telekinesis from Chiaotzu, Krillin was able to realize Chiaotzu relied on his hands too much and was able to creatively distract him through math problems.
These are all good examples of Krillin's battle sense, but the thing is, Tien doesn't have the same kind of easily exploitable weaknesses that these people did.
And let's remember that Tien's main weakness as pointed out by Goku was that Tien relied on his eyes too much.
Don't misinterpret this scan, though. While it does highlight a weakness, it's not that he relies too much on his eyes but rather that his eyes are too good. In other words, in the context of this match, he is more susceptible to the Solar Flare than Goku because of his third eye. So while this may be exploitable by Krillin, it doesn't necessarily highlight an overall flaw in Tien's battle strategy.
Lastly, Krillin has shown no qualms over fighting dirty as long as it guarantees a win.
Fair enough, Tien clearly has more a sense of honor than Krillin does. But that's just 'cause Krillin's a stinkin' coward. :P
But seriously, on the same hand, Tien does have more dedication to the art of fighting, and is more likely to be passionate and determined to win the fight, which should give him an edge as the fight goes on.
Krillin was shown to dodge many Dodon Rays from Chiaotzu.
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True, but at this time Krillin had Chiaotzu outmatched in stats. Chiaotzu's advantage in this fight was his unusual techniques and telepathic abilities, not power.
Plus, Goku (on equal terms with Tien during there match) was still able to survive relatively unscathed. So it would take more than an implusive Dodon Ray to finish off Krillin.
Also true, but it's another way to wear Krillin down, much the same as a single energy blast or Kamehameha is not going to be finishing off Tien.
The Multiform will be useless in this fight since as explained by Goku, it splits Tien's power by 4 which will make it all the more easier for Krillin to oneshot Tien once he exploits the subtracted power and eye weakness.
Note Krillin witnessing this.
That may be so, but it's hard to argue that Krillin has the natural skill that Goku does in battle. He may be aware of the weakness, but that doesn't mean he will have as easy of a time getting around it and avoiding being overwhelmed by numbers as Goku did at the time. Goku figured out the weakness quickly and even he wasn't able to exploit it that easily. Not to mention that Goku was much stronger than Tien during that fight (as opposed to this fight where they are equal in strength) and was not one-shotting anybody. So it's not as though the attack is a crippling weakness, but rather a trade-off that adds to Tien's versatility.
The Four Witches technique can give Tien an advantage until Krillin counters it by moving his arms fast enough to react to Tien's arms.
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But this requires Goku to make use of a speed advantage and take Tien by surprise, neither of which are possible in this fight. If Krillin can mimic Goku's technique to counter this move and get "8 arms", then Tien can do the same thing and get "16 arms". Tien has been shown to be better at mimicking techniques on the first try anyway.
And outside of the obvious Ki draining drawback of the Tri-Beam, I see no reason for Krillin to just stand there while Tien spends time focusing on him since all of Tien's tags with the Tri-Beam were while an opponent was distracted.
I direct you to the above Tri-Beam scan from RoF. The Tri-Beam has very little charge time anymore.
Also, Tien's feat of deflecting an attack from Buu isn't that impressive since it was aimed for Dende and Mr. Satan.
Still, Buu's power was so far above Tien's at that point that the Tri-Beam being able to match any of Buu's attacks demonstrates its ability to hit above its class.
While Tien is constantly training, I wouldn't say Krillin completely abandoned his martial arts training. He still trained extensively for 1 month for the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament, and wasn't commented by anyone in terms of being rusty in both the Buu Saga, or Revival of F unlike Gohan in both of those scenarios.
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So I don't feel Krillin's martial arts skills got Gohan'd by end of series.
Well, they are composite anyway, so it's not so much that he is rusty in skills as that he is not as dedicated as his training to Tien.
And as far as getting discouraged is concerned, Tien didn't even bother trying to counterattacking a stronger attack that could destroy Earth from Buutenks because he felt he was useless...
That's kinda cherrypicked. He's just acknowledging that he's not strong enough to help counter the blast (I.E. He wishes he were strong enough to be helping). You can't tell me that if Krillin were here he would be trying to get in there and fight back against this attack.
Not bothering to counter an attack when it would be useless isn't the same thing as being discouraged. It's just knowing your own limits. As in, in any situation where he would be able to help (Semi-Perfect Cell), if only a little, he would.
So Krillin should ultimately win for having techniques that match Tiens, and exploiting weaknesses to nullify most of Tien's techniques as well as playing dirty to put Tien at a disadvantage.
Krillin is outmatched by Tien's versatility, and before Krillin could resort to trickery, he would first have to find a way to exploit Tien's weaknesses, and Tien is not very vulnerable in the first place.
...And Tien coulda gotten Launch any day of the week if he wanted, but ya know, unlike some people he had more important things to worry about.
Krillin's own Kamehameha will be powerful, but it won't easily counter the Dodon Ray, which can be fired very quickly and rapidly. And Tien's Kamehameha will be equally powerful at equal power levels
Fair enough. But Krillin can still endure a lot of hits if tagged and can dodge through After Image or Wild Sense on equal terms.
These attacks are not much more than distraction, as they don't cover very much area and haven't been shown used against opponents of equal strength. And I would point out that Tien has knowledge of both these techniques and their applications, having seen Krillin use them.
Erm, they do cover area since the Double Tsuihikidan will still keep Tien on his toes unless he eventually destroys it with a ki blast. And the distractions still give Krillin the advantage to sucker punch Tien which Krillin often does in character.
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Being a distraction or not is still a lose lose situation for Tien. Also the implications are high that the blasts are lethal at even equal power levels since Piccolo Jr (being drastically stronger doesn’t bother tanking the Double Tsuihikidan) and that Tien (who’s arguably equal or close with Krillin at that point in time) and Piccolo commented on the Scattering Bullet's power.
Since you’ll probably bring this up from the scan, the Scattering Bullet is only slow as one beam, but gets faster when split (since it easily tagged the Saibamen afterwards).
Also, Tien hasn’t experienced multiple faster Scattering Bullets directed an opponent such as Tien himself.
The Destructo Disc is the biggest threat to Tien, since by all means it should be a lethal blow if Krillin lands a good hit. The issue is that as opposed to Tien's ace, the Tri-Beam, the Destructo-Disc requires a high degree of precision and accuracy to pull off, whereas the Tri-Beam is a massive blast that destroys everything in its path. Krillin has never actually killed anybody with a direct attack with this move, and it should not be too difficult to avoid under normal circumstances. And while the move takes less time to charge, the same is true for the Tri-Beam.
Like I said, I feel Krillin will eventually pull it out only when Tien is most vulnerably distracted or tired.
Krillin seems to be aware of this himself (as far as pulling it out randomly while an opponent’s guard is up), but still used the move without warning on Frieza.
I go more in detail with the Tri-Beam’s charging time in a later counter.
That's an interesting point; Tien has never seen Krillin use the technique as far as we know. However, Tien himself invented the technique and thus presumably has more experience with the move than Krillin. It's more likely that Tien would be able to land this attack before Krillin could do the same to Tien. Plus the fact that Krillin has only used the move to retreat and has (rather infamously) never used the move in combat to follow up with an attack, whereas Tien has plenty of combat experience using the move.
And the only time Tien used the move was to announce and show off his brand new technique of the week in the 22nd World Tournament.
Krillin could still use the retreat time to lower his ki and then hide in a rock or something and sneak attack when Tien either gets too close or distracted (since Krillin’s a cowar- I mean cunning :P).
These are all good examples of Krillin's battle sense, but the thing is, Tien doesn't have the same kind of easily exploitable weaknesses that these people did.
Don't misinterpret this scan, though. While it does highlight a weakness, it's not that he relies too much on his eyes but rather that his eyes are toogood. In other words, in the context of this match, he is more susceptible to the Solar Flare than Goku because of his third eye. So while this may be exploitable by Krillin, it doesn't necessarily highlight an overall flaw in Tien's battle strategy.
Okay, I’ll direct you to this scan then where Goku flat out says “you rely too much on them (your eyes) to locate your adversary.”
It’s still a vulnerable area I’m confident Krillin will target when the fight drags on too evenly since Krillin is aware of how amazing Tien’s eyesight is.
Fair enough, Tien clearly has more a sense of honor than Krillin does. But that's just 'cause Krillin's a stinkin' coward. :P
lol, fightin smart tho
But seriously, on the same hand, Tien does have more dedication to the art of fighting, and is more likely to be passionate and determined to win the fight, which should give him an edge as the fight goes on.
Since we’re taking composite, I’ll have you know Krillin still trained just as hard as Tien for all of the World Martial Arts Tournaments as well as the Saiyans and the Androids.
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If you want to argue by current DBZ logic, I’m actually gonna argue Tien only has dedication currently to keep in shape with his health.
(Only read and counter if you're going the latter route)
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Tien would eventually actually refuse to go a turn in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber because he felt it wouldn’t be helpful which is a huge departure from his typical never stop training attitude.
And we later see in the Buu saga that Tien doesn’t even bother entering in the World Martial Arts Tournament which implies to me Tien’s lost the drive for fighting competition.
So I feel current mindset Tien doesn’t necessarily have any edge in being more determined.
True, but at this time Krillin had Chiaotzu outmatched in stats. Chiaotzu's advantage in this fight was his unusual techniques and telepathic abilities, not power.
Also true, but it's another way to wear Krillin down, much the same as a single energy blast or Kamehameha is not going to be finishing off Tien.
Fair enough, but I’ll say Krillin will still endure with his persistence and battle smarts.
That may be so, but it's hard to argue that Krillin has the natural skill that Goku does in battle. He may be aware of the weakness, but that doesn't mean he will have as easy of a time getting around it and avoiding being overwhelmed by numbers as Goku did at the time. Goku figured out the weakness quickly and even he wasn't able to exploit it that easily. Not to mention that Goku was much stronger than Tien during that fight (as opposed to this fight where they are equal in strength) and was not one-shotting anybody. So it's not as though the attack is a crippling weakness, but rather a trade-off that adds to Tien's versatility.
Krillin is still very cunning and cunning means being very skilled through deceit and sly tactics. And since Krillin still picked up weaknesses fairly quickly in his Tournaments I see no reason as to why Krillin wouldn’t be able to discover the weakness either (if he didn’t have prior knowledge).
Also, since Krillin has already seen Goku use a Solar Flare to counter Tien, I can see Krillin resorting to using Solar Flare as well since he pretty much learned the Kamehameha wave mid match because he remembered Yamcha could use it.
Next, the only reason Goku didn’t easily avoid it initially was because Goku was holding back with Tien the entire time because he respected him enough as a friendly opponent to let him try his best before getting the kid gloves off.
In fact, wise old Master Roshi picks up on this.
And Goku did oneshot and blitz Tien’s clones once he explained the flaws and finally got serious.
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Since the powers are split between the Tien clones, I see no reason for Krillin not to one shot and blitz too since he has prior knowledge and a higher power level individually.
But this requires Goku to make use of a speed advantage and take Tien by surprise, neither of which are possible in this fight. If Krillin can mimic Goku's technique to counter this move and get "8 arms", then Tien can do the same thing and get "16 arms". Tien has been shown to be better at mimicking techniques on the first try anyway.
But Goku was equal to Tien with stats at the time he countered the Four Witches technique. Plus Tien never did anything to back up doing the same thing to get 16 arms, otherwise he wouldn't have gave up on the technique so easily against Goku's only 8 arms...
Plus, surprise or not, Tien certainly doesn't have any advantage per say with the technique since it will just result in more even h2h, and Krillin still picked up on the Kamehameha fairly easily mid match.
I direct you to the above Tri-Beam scan from RoF. The Tri-Beam has very little charge time anymore.
Anyways, the Tri Beam Tien recently used was a very casual normal one, whereas the rapid fire Tri Beam Tien used against Cell is the Neo Tri-Beam/Shin Kikoho which was still shown to require several panels of time to lock on. I don’t see how the Tri-Beam Tien used was the Neo version. If Tien fired multiple shots since there was still more swarms of fodder after him, I might have conceded.
And Goku (who was on equal stats with Tien at the time) was still able to dodge the Tri-Beam after it was fired at the very last instance despite the area of effect.
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Still, Buu's power was so far above Tien's at that point that the Tri-Beam being able to match any of Buu's attacks demonstrates its ability to hit above its class.
Fair enough, since either could potentially kill each other with their ace in the hole moves anyways.
Well, they are composite anyway, so it's not so much that he is rusty in skills as that he is not as dedicated as his training to Tien.
Since you’re arguing for composite here, I’ll once again state Krillin still trained just as hard as Tien for all of the World Martial Arts Tournaments as well as the Saiyans and the Androids so he’s just as dedicated overall in the series.
That's kinda cherrypicked. He's just acknowledging that he's not strong enough to help counter the blast (I.E. He wishes he were strong enough to be helping). You can't tell me that if Krillin were here he would be trying to get in there and fight back against this attack.
Not bothering to counter an attack when it would be useless isn't the same thing as being discouraged. It's just knowing your own limits. As in, in any situation where he would be able to help (Semi-Perfect Cell), if only a little, he would.
Tbh, looking back that scan was lowballing and I regret and apologise for using it. I’ll concede here, but Krillin should have the determination to fight to the end based on his training and fights for most of the series.
Plus Krillin had the same mindset of knowing your limits, but still trying your best such as his fight against Piccolo.
Krillin is outmatched by Tien's versatility, and before Krillin could resort to trickery, he would first have to find a way to exploit Tien's weaknesses, and Tien is not very vulnerable in the first place.
Krillin still got the ki techniques to at least distract him (which is trickery in itself), and does have multiple ways of exploiting Tien’s weakness.
Using his bald head to reflect sunlight:
the Solar Flare, hell, probably even throwing/kicking dirt (I imagine it wouldn’t be above/out of character for Krillin).
And Tien’s too good eyes are still a serious drawback for Tien to consider in this match.
...And Tien coulda gotten Launch any day of the week if he wanted, but ya know, unlike some people he had more important things to worry about.
So there. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง
But Tien would still rather hangout with Chiaotzu instead…
gg wp no re
I’m planning to have 3 counters total so my next reply will most likely be my concluding one, your next! @amendment50
Erm, they do cover area since the Double Tsukiden will still keep Tien on his toes unless he eventually destroys it with a ki blast. And the distractions still give Krillin the advantage to sucker punch Tien which Krillin often does in character.
Being a distraction or not is still a lose lose situation for Tien. Also the implications are high that the blasts are lethal at even equal power levels are that Piccolo Jr (being drastically stronger doesn’t bother tanking the Double Tsukiden) and that Tien (who’s arguably equal or close with Krillin at that point in time) and Piccolo commented on the Scatter Bullet's power.
Since you’ll probably bring this up from the scan, the Scattering Bullet is only slow as one beam, but gets faster when split (since it easily tagged the Saibamen afterwards).
Also, Tien hasn’t experienced multiple faster Scattering Bullets directed an opponent such as Tien himself.
But the time the blast takes to scatter gives Tien time to clear the area to avoid it, since Tien will know that the blast is going to split having seen the attack before. The saibamen didn't know the nature of the attack, which is why they were able to be tagged by it.
Like I said, I feel Krillin will eventually pull it out only when Tien is most vulnerably distracted or tired.
Krillin seems to be aware of this himself (as far as pulling it out randomly while an opponent’s guard is up, but still used the move without warning on Frieza.
I go more in detail with the Tri-Beam’s charging time in a later counter.
Frieza only fell for that because he was didn't even know Krillin was still conscious or even alive, and even then he still managed to detect and mostly avoid it because it requires such precision. Tien is never going to be caught that off-guard in a one-on-one fight.
And the only time Tien used the move was to announce and show off his brand new technique of the week in the 21st World Tournament.
But he used it in battle, and followed it up with an attack.
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Krillin could still use the retreat time to lower his ki and then hide in a rock or something and sneak attack when Tien either gets too close or distracted (since Krillin’s a cowar- I mean cunning :P).
It's possible, but Tien's not an idiot. If Krillin tried to retreat and hide, Tien could easily smoke him out with a large AoE attack like the Tri-Beam.
Okay, I’ll direct you to this scan then where Goku flat out says “Since you relied too much on them (your eyes) to locate your adversary.”
It’s still a vulnerable area I’m confident Krillin will target when the fight drags on too evenly since Krillin is aware of how amazing Tien’s eyesight is.
Thing is, the only way to really make effective use of this weakness is with the Solar Flare, and Krillin is just as vulnerable as anybody else to that technique. Cell has already used it successfully twice on Krillin.
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Since we’re taking composite, I’ll have you know Krillin still trained just as hard as Tien for all of the World Martial Arts Tournaments as well as the Saiyans and the Androids.
But Krillin did only train when Goku or the others needed him to, not for personal strength gain like Tien. And when it came time to use that strength, he faltered more than Tien. He didn't even try to help against the Androids, for instance, even when all the others did, because he was too afraid.
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Tien would eventually actually refuse to go a turn in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber because he felt it wouldn’t be helpful which is a huge departure from his typical never stop training attitude.
I would argue that Tien didn't enter the time chamber because it wasn't necessary for him to help defeat Cell. He still trained outside the chamber, but he knew that even with the training he wouldn't be strong enough to help any more against Cell than he already had, so there was no reason to spend the time in the chamber when he could simply train outside of it for his personal reasons.
And we later see in the Buu saga that Tien doesn’t even bother entering in the World Martial Arts Tournament which implies to me Tien’s lost the drive for fighting competition.
He may not have entered the tournament, but he trained the whole time the tournament went on so it's not like he lost the drive to be a good fighter. I think it's more likely that he just didn't have interest in the tournament itself.
Krillin is still very cunning and cunning means being very skilled through deceit and sly tactics. And since Krillin still picked up weaknesses fairly quickly in his Tournaments I see no reason as to why Krillin wouldn’t be able to discover the weakness either (if he didn’t have prior knowledge).
Also, since Krillin has already seen Goku use a Solar Flare to counter Tien, I can see Krillin resorting to using Solar Flare as well since he pretty much learned the Kamehameha wave mid match because he remembered Yamcha could use it.
Tien could just as easily use a Solar Flare to counter Krillin, and he has experience using it in a combat situation, unlike Krillin.
Next, the only reason Goku didn’t easily avoid it initially was because Goku was holding back with Tien the entire time because he respected him enough as a friendly opponent to let him try his best before getting the kid gloves off.
In fact, wise old Master Roshi picks up on this.
And Goku did oneshot and blitz Tien’s clones once he explained the flaws and finally got serious.
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Since the powers are split between the Tien clones, I see no reason for Krillin to one shot and blitz too since he has prior knowledge and a higher power level individually.
This is exactly my point. As long as Goku was keeping his power even with Tien, he was fighting evenly with Tien's clones. Only once he let himself use his power advantage was he able to easily beat Tien's clones. This is not possible for Krillin because Krillin does not have that power advantage.
But Goku was equal to Tien with stats at the time he countered the Four Witches technique. Plus Tien never did anything to back up doing the same thing to get 16 arms, otherwise he wouldn't have gave up on the technique so easily against Goku's only 8 arms...
Plus, surprise or not, Tien certainly doesn't have any advantage per say with the technique since it will just result in more even h2h, and Krillin still picked up on the Kamehameha fairly easily mid match.
Krillin also has never done anything to back up being able to do the technique. This is based on the assumption that he will be able to mimic a technique he saw Goku do, and we know Tien is capable of this mimicry as well.
Anyways, the Tri Beam Tien recently used was a very casual normal one, whereas the rapid fire Tri Beam Tien used against Cell is the Neo Tri-Beam/Shin Kikoho which was still shown to require several panels of time to lock on. I don’t see how the Tri-Beam Tien used was the Neo version.
And Goku (who was on equal stats with Tien at the time) was still able to dodge the Tri-Beam after it was fired at the very last instance despite the area of effect.
Thing is, Tien doesn't need to use the Neo Tri-Beam to kill Krillin. Even the normal Tri-Beam is lethal. Tien, Master Roshi and even Goku himself all agreed that Goku would have been killed by the Tri-Beam if he hadn't avoided it. The Neo Tri-Beam in this situation would be unnecessary/overkill.
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And on the subject of avoiding the attack, Goku was repeatedly warned to avoid the attack and knew well in advance that Tien was preparing, because Tien wanted Goku to avoid it. Also the charge time is much smaller here than it was the first time Tien used it against Goku, so Krillin will have a difficult time avoiding it.
Since you’re arguing for composite here, I’ll once again state Krillin still trained just as hard as Tien for all of the World Martial Arts Tournaments as well as the Saiyans and the Androids so he’s just as dedicated overall in the series.
Tbh, looking back that scan was lowballing and I regret and apologise for using it. I’ll concede here, but Krillin should have the determination to fight to the end based on his training and fights for most of the series.
Plus Krillin had the same mindset of knowing your limits, but still trying your best such as his fight against Piccolo.
Reasonable, but Krillin is more eager than Tien to back out when outmatched.
Krillin still got the ki techniques to at least distract him (which is trickery in itself), and does have multiple ways of exploiting Tien’s weakness.
Using his bald head to reflect sunlight:
the Solar Flare, hell, probably even throwing/kicking dirt (I imagine it wouldn’t be above/out of character for Krillin).
And Tien’s too good eyes are still a serious drawback for Tien to consider in this match.
Maybe so, but Krillin's options for exploiting it are pretty limited, and Tien can still use the Solar Flare to gain an advantage against Krillin in the same way Krillin can use it against him. That reflecting bald head thing is pretty situational, and I hardly think Tien isn't going to be able to react to a few thrown rocks or some dirt.
But Tien would still rather hangout with Chiaotzu instead…
gg wp no re
Nah, Chiaotzu's an emperor, Tien's just a pragmatist.
I’m planning to have 3 counters total so my next reply will most likely be my concluding one, your next!
Works for me. I'll close for voting after my next rebuttal then.
But the time the blast takes to scatter gives Tien time to clear the area to avoid it, since Tien will know that the blast is going to split having seen the attack before. The saibamen didn't know the nature of the attack, which is why they were able to be tagged by it.
Krillin can still use the Scattering Bullets area of effect to destroy the entire canyon.
Tien mostly remembers the attack as targeting multiple enemies whereas Krillin has no reason to only target one smaller blast against him.
Plus, I feel Krillin can be creative with it’s use like feinting a blast for a distraction.
Also, the Double Tsuihikidan would still be hot on Tien’s trail.
Frieza only fell for that because he was didn't even know Krillin was still conscious or even alive, and even then he still managed to detect and mostly avoid it because it requires such precision. Tien is never going to be caught that off-guard in a one-on-one fight.
Though Krillin could also fire multiple disks when an an opponent is off guard to increase his odds.
Tien can’t effectively dodge when blinded, which could be an example of Tien getting caught that off guard.
Plus, as long as Tien can only dodge, it gives Krillin the advantage to either eventually tag Tien, or come up with some plans like chopping the boulders against Tien at a safe distance while Tien is dancing around.
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But he used it in battle, and followed it up with an attack.
And none of Tien’s follow up attacks were ki attacks. Tien might get a few hits but would then soon go back to square one against Krillin’s h2h, with Krillin several times more likely to retaliate with his own Solar Flare (if not already used by Krillin first).
It's possible, but Tien's not an idiot. If Krillin tried to retreat and hide, Tien could easily smoke him out with a large AoE attack like the Tri-Beam.
Then Tien’s power would be relatively drained to at least give Krillin a slight h2h advantage,
Thing is, the only way to really make effective use of this weakness is with the Solar Flare, and Krillin is just as vulnerable as anybody else to that technique. Cell has already used it successfully twice on Krillin.
Yet Krillin can still use his head to reflect sunlight, and putting sand in Tien’s eyes.
Really, there’s a lot of possibilities for Krillin to get creative through other tactics like poking eyes or spitting in it since this is the same guy creative enough to distract a psychic manchild through math problems.
All Tien has is one limited option that he most likely won’t resort to as quickly as Krillin.
But Krillin did only train when Goku or the others needed him to, not for personal strength gain like Tien. And when it came time to use that strength, he faltered more than Tien. He didn't even try to help against the Androids, for instance, even when all the others did, because he was too afraid.
Krillin still trained hard and participated in the World Martial Arts Tournaments to get stronger and win for himself.
And Krillin technically doesn’t even need to train for Goku and the others since Krillin is way weaker than the Saiyans and Piccolo. Yet Krillin still goes out of his way to participate in conflicts and improve himself for the sake of at least trying to help to protect the Earth just like Tien.
And despite getting horn gored and presumed dead by Frieza, Krillin still got the courage and balls to save Gohan’s life right when Frieza was about to kill Gohan. Even though Krillin couldn’t kill Frieza (RIP Frieza’s tail), he still proved his worth and his strength by risking everything at a vital moment to selflessly save a friend's life.
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And I also see you cherry picked a low point for Krillin here :P...
I almost don’t regret showing Tien giving up against Buu now…
Welp, I’mma still defend mah boi Krillin here.
Krillin didn’t initially help because he realised 18 and 17 weren’t truly bad. He realized they were just troubled youths with no real motivation that weren’t truly sadistic or malicious and actually tried to then convince them not to kill Goku because he realised they weren’t truly evil like Frieza.
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This would later hold true when 18 becomes his wife and doesn’t terrorize the Earth, and 17 becomes a peaceful farmer after getting revived.
Also Krillin would then apologise to the gang and make up for it against Perfect Cell.
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Even when all hope was lost, Krillin unfazed by fear still attacked Perfect Cell all out despite the odds, which shows Krillin doesn’t always falter...and if you bring up Krillin being unable to hurt Cell, I’ll remind you that Tien got arm choked by 17 :P
I would argue that Tien didn't enter the time chamber because it wasn't necessary for him to help defeat Cell. He still trained outside the chamber, but he knew that even with the training he wouldn't be strong enough to help any more against Cell than he already had, so there was no reason to spend the time in the chamber when he could simply train outside of it for his personal reasons.
But if Tien doesn’t even bother training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for personal reasons, it shows insecurity and weakness in Tien’s own strength since he no longer has true faith in his training to improve.
Even if he couldn’t get strong enough to defeat Cell, there’s still no good reason as to why Tien would opt out of superior training other than his dedication and drive gradually declining over the series.
He may not have entered the tournament, but he trained the whole time the tournament went on so it's not like he lost the drive to be a good fighter. I think it's more likely that he just didn't have interest in the tournament itself.
If he didn’t lose his drive to be a good fighter, well Tien would have then entered the tournament meant to compete with other skilled fighters, but he didn’t.
It’s likely he didn’t have interest in the tournament because Tien doesn’t care about becoming the strongest any more.
Tien could just as easily use a Solar Flare to counter Krillin, and he has experience using it in a combat situation, unlike Krillin.
But Tien hasn’t shown the consistent cunning mindset even close to Krillin that guarantees he’ll use the Solar Flare. It’s only a slim possibility that Tien wouldn’t capitalize on to the fullest extend unlike Krillin.
Krillin still has more experience with taking advantage of cheap tactics.
This is exactly my point. As long as Goku was keeping his power even with Tien, he was fighting evenly with Tien's clones. Only once he let himself use his power advantage was he able to easily beat Tien's clones. This is not possible for Krillin because Krillin does not have that power advantage.
Except Goku and Krillin vice versa do have the power advantage because Tien’s power is divided.
The reason Goku was fighting evenly was because he wasn’t used to the clones not being after images but he was able to pick up fast.
Of course, Krillin is also fast learner based on his tournament fights so it overall shouldn’t take long for him to get adjusted to the Multiform Tiens speed and overwhelm them.
Krillin also has never done anything to back up being able to do the technique. This is based on the assumption that he will be able to mimic a technique he saw Goku do, and we know Tien is capable of this mimicry as well.
Krillin still has prior knowledge of Goku countering the technique. And while Tien may have the ability of mimicry, he won’t do so as a necessity in character.
Tien only showed off the Kamehameha to Roshi out of spite to use Roshi’s own move against him while he was still an antagonist. We later see Tien relying more on his signature techniques than picking up and incorporating other powerful techniques from others to his own arsenal.
Krillin on the other hand, picked up the Kamehameha from Yamcha to beat Chiaotzu, and Solar Flare from Tien to survive against far stronger foes. Thus, he has a valid possibility of recreating and using the optical illusion technique against Tien's 4 arms.
Thing is, Tien doesn't need to use the Neo Tri-Beam to kill Krillin. Even the normal Tri-Beam is lethal. Tien, Master Roshi and even Goku himself all agreed that Goku would have been killed by the Tri-Beam if he hadn't avoided it. The Neo Tri-Beam in this situation would be unnecessary/overkill.
Then Tien would be limiting his chances of tagging Krillin with the move.
And on the subject of avoiding the attack, Goku was repeatedly warned to avoid the attack and knew well in advance that Tien was preparing, because Tien wanted Goku to avoid it. Also the charge time is much smaller here than it was the first time Tien used it against Goku, so Krillin will have a difficult time avoiding it.
And even with the warnings, Goku still tried to see the attack for himself before moving, so the warnings are irrelevant to Goku dodging it.
The charging time is also irrelevant because Goku only dodged after it was already fired and heading towards him.
Reasonable, but Krillin is more eager than Tien to back out when outmatched.
But Krillin backed out only after putting up a really good fight with Piccolo.
Piccolo who was vastly superior to Krillin even complimented him several times on his endurance and tenaciousness and even became convinced that taking over the world could be hard just from fighting him.
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Anyways, Tien doesn’t even outmatch Krillin to the same degree as Piccolo since their stats are equalized here. With a fair chance for winning, Krillin’s determination should be way higher than fighting a stomp battle.
Maybe so, but Krillin's options for exploiting it are pretty limited, and Tien can still use the Solar Flare to gain an advantage against Krillin in the same way Krillin can use it against him. That reflecting bald head thing is pretty situational, and I hardly think Tien isn't going to be able to react to a few thrown rocks or some dirt.
But Tien has never shown the desperation for Solar Flare unlike Krillin. While Tien invented the technique, Krillin truly realized how useful it can be against even drastically stronger foes, and in conjunction with his tendency to exploit weak spots has a higher likelihood of relying on blinding attacks against Tien than for Tien resorting to using it against Krillin.
The reflecting bald head is still an option that still fits the situation (since the fight takes place in broad daylight), and I’ll remind you that even reacting to rocks or dirt still leaves Tien distracted for Krillin to counter attack since he’s shown to take advantages of openings in feint attacks such as with Piccolo and Nappa.
Nah, Chiaotzu's an emperor, Tien's just a pragmatist.
But Krillin’s wife can make Satan himself cower in fear :P
Closing Thoughts:
Krillin’s Ki attacks can keep up with Tien’s techniques through providing a distraction at worst or a lethal blast at best.
Krillin will make better use of distractions and critical thinking which Tien has not displayed feats off.
Krillin through his cunning will be more likely to specifically focus and target Tien’s vulnerable eyes with many options rather than the other way around for Tien.
Tien does not employ great strategy or exploitation of weaknesses which make Tien predictable with his attack pattern of amping up more powerful attacks without a clear goal in mind unlike Krillin.
Tien’s dedication to fight or win does not appear to be particularly higher than Krillin’s due to his somewhat subtle declining enthusiasm for competitive fighting as the series went on.
Krillin can still use the Scattering Bullets area of effect to destroy the entire canyon.
Tien mostly remembers the attack as targeting multiple enemies whereas Krillin has no reason to only target one smaller blast against him.
Plus, I feel Krillin can be creative with it’s use like feinting a blast for a distraction.
But that attack specifically used the element of surprise, since it seemed like a slow beam but suddenly turned into several faster ones. Tien can clear the distance, since he will already be expecting the beam to split. Plus, using the attack will leave Krillin vulnerable to a Dodon or energy blast.
Also, the Double Tsuihikidan would still be hot on Tien’s trail.
Frieza only fell for that because he was didn't even know Krillin was still conscious or even alive, and even then he still managed to detect and mostly avoid it because it requires such precision. Tien is never going to be caught that off-guard in a one-on-one fight.
Though Krillin could also fire multiple disks when an an opponent is off guard to increase his odds.
Tien can’t effectively dodge when blinded, which could be an example of Tien getting caught that off guard.
Plus, as long as Tien can only dodge, it gives Krillin the advantage to either eventually tag Tien, or come up with some plans like chopping the boulders against Tien at a safe distance while Tien is dancing around.
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And none of Tien’s follow up attacks were ki attacks. Tien might get a few hits but would then soon go back to square one against Krillin’s h2h, with Krillin several times more likely to retaliate with his own Solar Flare (if not already used by Krillin first).
...Why would h2h be an ineffective way to follow up with a stun? And besides, that's a pretty overly literal way to interpret feats. "He's never followed up Solar Flare with a ki attack so it would be out of character for him to do so here". By that logic it would be out of character for Krillin to use Solar Flare in battle at all, which frankly I find to be less of a stretch.
Then Tien’s power would be relatively drained to at least give Krillin a slight h2h advantage.
But only slightly. As I mentioned above the Tri-Beam clearly does not have the same drain or risk as it used to, since Tien will casually use it against fodder and keep fighting afterwards.
Yet Krillin can still use his head to reflect sunlight, and putting sand in Tien’s eyes.
Really, there’s a lot of possibilities for Krillin to get creative through other tactics like poking eyes or spitting in it since this is the same guy creative enough to distract a psychic manchild through math problems.
All Tien has is one limited option that he most likely won’t resort to as quickly as Krillin.
Even though Tien has more combat experience with the Solar Flare than Tien (i.e. any)
And Krillin's other distractions shouldn't buy enough time for an attack like the Destructo Disc or something lethal like that. Tien can still sense energy and unless he is really stunned or held in place, like by the Solar Flare, there's no reason he can't just move out of the way. But the same can't be said for Krillin and the Tri-Beam, because the Tri-Beam has a massive area of effect.
Krillin still trained hard and participated in the World Martial Arts Tournaments to get stronger and win for himself.
And Krillin technically doesn’t even need to train for Goku and the others since Krillin is way weaker than the Saiyans and Piccolo. Yet Krillin still goes out of his way to participate in conflicts and improve himself for the sake of at least trying to help to protect the Earth just like Tien.
And despite getting horn gored and presumed dead by Frieza, Krillin still got the courage and balls to save Gohan’s life right when Frieza was about to kill Gohan. Even though Krillin couldn’t kill Frieza (RIP Frieza’s tail), he still proved his worth and his strength by risking everything at a vital moment to selflessly save a friend's life.
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And I also see you cherry picked a low point for Krillin here :P...
I almost don’t regret showing Tien giving up against Buu now…
Welp, I’mma still defend mah boi Krillin here.
Krillin didn’t initially help because he realised 18 and 17 weren’t truly bad. He realized they were just troubled youths with no real motivation that weren’t truly sadistic or malicious and actually tried to then convince them not to kill Goku because he realised they weren’t truly evil like Frieza.
This would later hold true when 18 becomes his wife and doesn’t terrorize the Earth, and 17 becomes a peaceful farmer after getting revived.
Also Krillin would then apologise to the gang and make up for it against Perfect Cell.
Even when all hope was lost, Krillin unfazed by fear still attacked Perfect Cell all out despite the odds, which shows Krillin doesn’t always falter...and if you bring up Krillin being unable to hurt Cell, I’ll remind you that Tien got arm choked by 17 :P
I don't have to cherrypick to find instances of Krillin being afraid to fight, though. He does this sort of thing with several main villains. Frankly, stepping in to help against Frieza was uncharacteristically brave. He was afraid to step in to fight Raditz. He wanted to run away from the Ginyu force. He was eager to turn back against Babidi and Dabura. It's not just feeling useless but actually being fearful and wanting to back away from a fight. Krillin actually does this sort of thing.
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But if Tien doesn’t even bother training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for personal reasons, it shows insecurity and weakness in Tien’s own strength since he no longer has true faith in his training to improve.
Even if he couldn’t get strong enough to defeat Cell, there’s still no good reason as to why Tien would opt out of superior training other than his dedication and drive gradually declining over the series.
But it's not really extra training, just an early year of training. Since he couldn't get strong enough to beat Cell with the extra year, he didn't need to use the year in the chamber.
But Tien hasn’t shown the consistent cunning mindset even close to Krillin that guarantees he’ll use the Solar Flare. It’s only a slim possibility that Tien wouldn’t capitalize on to the fullest extend unlike Krillin.
Krillin still has more experience with taking advantage of cheap tactics.
I mean, Krillin hasn't used the Solar Flare any more than Tien. They've both used it twice. It's just that Tien has used it during a tournament, in a fight, while Krillin used it as an escape tactic, to flee.
Except Goku and Krillin vice versa do have the power advantage because Tien’s power is divided.
The reason Goku was fighting evenly was because he wasn’t used to the clones not being after images but he was able to pick up fast.
Goku was much, much stronger than Tien during the 23rd long before the split. That's the power advantage he tapped into. Roshi said it himself when they were fighting one on one, in the scan you provided in fact.
Of course, Krillin is also fast learner based on his tournament fights so it overall shouldn’t take long for him to get adjusted to the Multiform Tiens speed and overwhelm them.
But for a time, it gives Tien an additional advantage over Krillin in the h2h category.
Krillin still has prior knowledge of Goku countering the technique. And while Tien may have the ability of mimicry, he won’t do so as a necessity in character.
Tien only showed off the Kamehameha to Roshi out of spite to use Roshi’s own move against him while he was still an antagonist. We later see Tien relying more on his signature techniques than picking up and incorporating other powerful techniques from others to his own arsenal.
Krillin on the other hand, picked up the Kamehameha from Yamcha to beat Chiaotzu, and Solar Flare from Tien to survive against far stronger foes. Thus, he has a valid possibility of recreating and using the optical illusion technique against Tien's 4 arms.
Tien's motivation for mimicking an attack doesn't mean anything. Fact is, he was able to recreate a powerful Kamehameha after only seeing it once. There's just no argument for that demonstrating less grasp for techniques than what Krillin did. If Tien needed to recreate an attack due to necessity, there's no reason why he couldn't. He relies more on his signiture attacks, true. So does literally every other character in Dragon Ball ('cept maybe Cell :P).
Also, Roshi actually felt threatened by Tien's first Kamehameha, while he objected that Krillin's was "jerry-rigged" and not strong enough to counter Chiaotzu's Dodon. Tien practically mastered the attack on his first try, while Krillin's was observably weak.
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Then Tien would be limiting his chances of tagging Krillin with the move.
Not really. The ordinary Tri-Beam has a very wide area of effect.
But Krillin backed out only after putting up a really good fight with Piccolo.
Piccolo who was vastly superior to Krillin even complimented him several times on his endurance and tenaciousness and even became convinced that taking over the world could be hard just from fighting him.
But, obviously, Piccolo was holding back immensely against Krillin anyway. He was commenting on his relative strength, not on the fact that he really felt threatened.
Anyways, Tien doesn’t even outmatch Krillin to the same degree as Piccolo since their stats are equalized here. With a fair chance for winning, Krillin’s determination should be way higher than fighting a stomp battle.
But as the fight goes on, if Tien can overwhelm Krillin with techniques or power (both of which he has), Krillin is more likely to become discouraged while Tien will be determined to keep fighting.
But Tien has never shown the desperation for Solar Flare unlike Krillin. While Tien invented the technique, Krillin truly realized how useful it can be against even drastically stronger foes, and in conjunction with his tendency to exploit weak spots has a higher likelihood of relying on blinding attacks against Tien than for Tien resorting to using it against Krillin.
Tien just hasn't been in the same type of situation. He's not the type to flee. Are you suggesting he won't use the Solar Flare if he needs to? Because there's nothing to suggest that. He himself invented the technique and has used it in battle twice to stun his opponent. He probably will be less likely to try to run away from Krillin with the attack, but that doesn't mean he won't be likely to use it offensively. Which, as I mentioned, Krillin has never done.
The reflecting bald head is still an option that still fights the situation (since the fight takes place in broad daylight), and I’ll remind you that even reacting to rocks or dirt still leaves Tien distracted for Krillin to counter attack since he’s shown to take advantages of openings in feint attacks such as with Piccolo and Nappa.
As above, minor distractions shouldn't be enough to land a finishing blow or even any significant damage since Tien can still just move out of the way.
I would also point out that Tien, along with Krillin, received the same training from Popo on Kami's lookout that Goku did, and this is the training that helped Goku learn to fight without relying in sight. So by all accounts Tien should not be crippled by his loss of eyesight since he has that same training. He won't be as vulnerable as he was during the 23rd WMAT.
But Krillin’s wife can make Satan himself cower in fear :P
I think we both know what the real Satan would have to say about that...
Closing Thoughts:
Tien's Four Witches and Multi-form techniques give him several solid h2h advantages when it comes down to it.
Tien's Dodon can whittle Krillin down from afar, and the low charge time and low energy consumption of his current Tri-Beam combined with its incredible power and very wide area of effect can tag Krillin and do enough damage to take him down.
Tien can more easily use the Solar Flare against Krillin in combat than the reverse to stun him and finish him off, and his weakness to sunlight will not come much into play unless he is tagged with the Solar Flare anyway. Besides that, Tien has received more training since that vulnerability was exposed, including training from Popo that should specifically address the weakness.
Krillin is more likely to get discouraged at the end of a fight. As they fight on, Tien will be more determined to keep fighting and win, while Krillin will begin to feel helpless and may even give up, giving Tien more of an advantage later in the fight.
Ultimately, Tien Shinhan will win in a tough fight.
Good debate; this was fun! I'll close it up for voting! @gothamciti
PLEASE VOTE FOR WHOEVER YOU THINK DEBATED THE BEST, NOT WHICH CHARACTER YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE WOULD WIN! SERIOUSLY! IF YOU WANT TO VOTE FOR WHICH CHARACTER YOU THINK WOULD WIN, THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER THREADS FOR IT!
Well, its been a tough choice, but im voting @amendment50
Mainly because while both managed to show how they can attack, defend, counter, and give the other a fight, amendment demonstrated in a more convincing way how Tien would finish the fight.
Going for@gothamciti. Felt that his argument felt a bit more substantial in the core areas (Krillin being cunning, Krillin having versatile attacks better suited for at least a distraction if not more so, multiform being a more of a liability in a fight).
@amendment50put up a great debate though. Actually had trouble choosing this one. Really liked how you compared Tien and Krillin's attempts of recreating the Kamehameha.
I vote for @amendment50, proving Tien as a superior fighter overall. I think @gothamciti sort of dug his own grave once he try to focus less on dirty tactic which was really persuading me in the beginning, also there the fact that Tien use solar flare more effectively. Also no mention of Krillin hurting SSJ Goku with a rock, 4 shame lol.
Going with Krillin on this one. He explained why Tri-Beam wouldn't be able to land and Krillins smarts would be able to edge him out a strategic win with more Ki Manipulating hits and run moves and how Solar Fare would affect Tien more than it would affect Krillin.
@gothamcititakes my vote. Although, it will be too close due to excellent debates from both sides.
@amendment50 gave some excellent reasons why tien sould win, gothanciti did the same. It is the closest CaV i've seen here. It can go either way, but cunning strategies prevail in the end over versatility very slightly.
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