CaV: Kraven (King_Hellstorm) vs Shaolin Cowboy (Owie) OPEN FOR VOTES!!!

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#1 Edited by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

A CaV featuring Kraven, represented by @king_hellstorm

Kraven
Kraven

vs

Shaolin Cowboy, represented by Owie

Shaolin Cowboy
Shaolin Cowboy

Kraven has accepted a contract on Shaolin Cowboy. The Cowboy is determined to protect himself and the area from Kraven.

Battle takes place here:

Location: yellow dot is Kraven, red is Shaolin Cowboy
Location: yellow dot is Kraven, red is Shaolin Cowboy

Scenario

  • Composite of current and 616 Marvel Kraven. All appearances of Shaolin Cowboy.
  • No prep or prior knowledge.
  • Kraven has his classic vest, poison darts, Adamantium dagger, and an assortment of standard knives and such. Shaolin Cowboy has his double-chainsaw staff and a revolver.
  • In character.
  • Winner by death, knockout, incapacitation.
  • Battle begins in a depopulated western ghost town, starting at 20'.

Voting

  • This is a CaV (Challenge a Viner) and debating should be between King_Hellstorm and Owie only
  • Please keep your opinions to yourself until closed for voting
  • You can ask to be tagged for votes
  • Vote for who you think was the better debater, not who you think would win the fight
  • Reasoning for votes and constructive feedback are encouraged
  • Thanks for reading!
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#3 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

CONTENT WARNING

Shaolin Cowboy is a comic that features extensive swearing, regular (albeit non-attractive) nudity, gory violence, and over-the-top racial slurs. I want to comment about the racial contentin particular: the comic uses this constant, overt racism satirically, to make a point about the low state of humanity, and how we so often use the worst, and easiest, ways to make other people look bad so we falsely come off as being better. The fact that the people in the Cowboy’s universe who use this racist language are obviously not only evil, but completely pathetic, it clear that this language is there to point to the fallen state of the human condition, and not to be taken seriously. Research into Geof Darrow’s background, as well as his one-time co-author Andrew Vachss, will show that they are both very concerned with humanitarian causes such as child abuse and trafficking, supporting the anti-racist approach with this language.

However, due to this language, as well as the more standard profanity, nudity, and violence found throughout the comics, I will be using links for every image, instead of showing them in-line with the text.

Readers, PLEASE check out the links to see his amazing feats.

The Shaolin Cowboy
The Shaolin Cowboy

@major_hellstorm

WHO IS SHAOLIN COWBOY?

The mysterious man only known as Shaolin Cowboy was trained in the Shaolin Temple, but was thrown out. He now wanders the west in a post-apocalyptic-ish lawless era teeming with dinosaurs, sentient animals, and wastrels of all types, sometimes accompanied by his self-aware Mule.

Shaolin Cowboy’s enemies include random desert bad guys, zombies, demons, a huge sentient kung fu-trained pig named Hog Kong, and his arch-enemy, a sentient kung fu-trained crab named King Crab.

His reputation is such that an observer said, “If they traded homicide on the Stock Exchange, he’d be the IPO of the century.”

ABILITIES

Shaolin Cowboy is highly trained in kung fu and new and old weapons. He has normal human stats, but can use chi/arcane martial arts techniques to amplify his striking power and other abilities.

Speed

He can fight with heightened speed. Here, he shoots an old fashioned repeating rifle (which requires the lever around the trigger to be pulled back and forth after each shot) so quickly that the falling shell casings are in a cloud and don’t have time to fall to the ground.

Here he attacks (in one short excerpt of a fight) numerous bad guys at once by flailing two dogs with knives for legs around him like nunchucks. It would take enormous speed (and skill) to do this to so many opponents at once without them having a chance to fight back.

He can spin so quickly he is described as spinning like a top, throwing out spikes in all directions. (This all-text scan is from Shaolin Cowboy Adventure Magazine, a canon novella; see the note on sources at the end. All the all-text scans are from this novella.)

He fought a creature that was basically a balloon filled with nerve gas; cut him at all and the nerve gas gets out and kills everyone around. However Shaolin Cowboy was able to cut his head off and then shove it back in the hole so quickly no gas escaped.

Here he quickly blitzes a line of at least 30 zombies quickly enough that the blood on the first ones is still in the air by the time he reaches the last ones. Even if we take that as a visual effect, there are 14 zombies at least still in the process of falling by the time he gets to the last one. That’s a lot of really quick striking and moving.

Several scenes use after-images to show speed: Here he blocks the very fast attacks by a demon, shown using after-images, with that demon’s head.

Here he blocks the extremely fast attacks by two knife-dogs (not just speed but great blocking; he has to block the knife blades themselves directly with his hands).

Here he dodges through the fast giant claws (as seen with after-images) of a crab.

Here he sorts through a bin with lightning speed (again, after-images). This is not just an effect; he's in the middle of a battle while he does this.

Agility and Dodging

He has great leaping abilities and excellent balance.

We can see his leaping ability in scenes like these, with extremely long jumps.

Here we see his agility as he jumps and balances on a floating suitcase while being chased by sharks.

Here he deflects a gun from shooting him while fighting numerous others simultaneously.

Here he dodges a couple bullets using a minimum of necessary movement.

Here he leaps from one zombie’s head to the next, killing each one with his steps as he goes. This scene goes on for literally half a comic of most double-page spreads, just him jumping on zombie heads and killing them. This shows two things: crazy light-footed agility, and the ability to turn his normal walking steps into lethal strikes.

Similarly, he is able to drop onto, and then walk upon, punji sticks so lightly (using the “Punji Stick Plunge”) that they do not pierce him; his landing is described as being like a butterfly landing on a flower.

Striking Power

Nerve Strikes and Chi Manipulation

Shaolin Cowboy can manipulate chi for other powerful effects besides improving his fighting.

Shaolin Cowboy is familiar with nerve strikes.

Here he makes a woman, Shelley, lose her recent memories by touching her on the forehead.

Here he heals himself from major injuries by using chi pressure points on himself.

Preferred Techniques: Massively-wounding and Incredibly-incapacitating

His techniques are usually used to create massive damage in the target. He regularly decapitates, cuts off limbs, and tears apart the body of his opponents, whether with weapons or hands, showing off both great skill and high damage output.

Here he cuts two slices through a guy’s neck (while seeming to only cut once) then kicks the disk out of the guy’s neck.

In these random panels he uses a sword to bisect a guy vertically starting at the groin; cut a guy in half across the torso; cut a guy’s arm off; cut a guy’s head in half, knock a guy’s heart out through his back; decapitate a few more guys, and disembowels a guy.

Here are just a couple examples of him using his hands to cut through zombies’ bodies, using punches, knife- and spear-hand techniques, elbows, and leopard paw techniques.

I’ll have more of all this in the next post.

Durability and Endurance

The Cowboy is used to fighting enemies with superhuman striking power and has the durability to absorb it. For example, here is King Crab cracking a rock. Here, Shaolin Cowboy blocks numerous hits from him (also showing good blocking of strikes) without injury. (More on King Crab’s skill in the next post.)

Here we see him get knocked across a block by the superhuman Hog Kong and take a huge fall, and still be OK.

Here a woman, Shelley, controlled by King Crab cuts open someone’s skull with her hands, but here the Cowboy absorbs numerous hits from her, and (omitting the most of the fight for efficiency’s sake, but I’ll show it later) he is basically fine in the end.

Endurance: Here a recap describes what happened between the first volume of Shaolin Cowboy (which ended on a cliffhanger) and the beginning of the second volume: the Cowboy battles to escape some demons and zombies for SIX YEARS STRAIGHT then digs himself up through the earth from their underground hell-city. The next scene shows him digging himself up through the ground, which would take insane endurance and strength.

Accuracy, Improvised Weapons, and Perception

Shaolin Cowboy also has extreme accuracy in ranged attacks, even with improvised “weapons.” For instance he squeezed a vulture its eyeballs popped out and killed two other vultures. Lots of characters can use random objects as weapons, but he can turn anything into a lethal weapon, even something as soft and gelatinous as an eye.

Here he flicks a button to destroy a drone, using what is later described as “the twenty-third movement of the Hung Gar Fist—Catfish-leaps-beneath-the-silvery-autumn-moon-to-trap-the-locust-queen.” (As a Hung Ga practitioner myself, that’s good to know!) In both of these cases, obviously there is not only great accuracy but also great ranged striking power.

He can outshoot four snipers who are ready to kill him.

He also has heightened perception that helps with his accuracy. Here, he knocks away a garbage bag that he couldn’t see coming from above.

Here a guy throws a can at him insultingly; the Cowboy catches it and throws it behind his back without looking at the car moving in the opposite direction, where it lands exactly on the guy’s upraised middle finger.

Here he shoots a wad of falling bird crap that is coming from behind him, which he somehow senses and then shoots with a bullet.

WEAPONS

In this battle, he will have a revolver and his double-chainsaw staff. His revolver is just a revolver, he is an accurate shot as seen above.

His staff is one of his signature weapons, and is extremely deadly. He can spin and throw the staff around like a boomerang, cutting through massive crowds, so that it returns to his hand.

Here he uses it to cut through a shark.

He can also fight with it in one hand while simultaneously fighting with his open-hand techniques with the other hand (punching a zombie's heart out through its back).

(Shaolin Cowboy often carries many other weapons, from guns to explosives to poisoned shuriken, but won't have them here.)

MORALS

Shaolin Cowboy kills extensively, brutally, and casually against any opponent. He will have no problem using lethal force against Kraven.

STRATEGY

Shaolin Cowboy is not known for using complex strategies, although he does fight tactically when necessary. For instance, he defeats a giant crab car using gasoline, and tricks the giant Hog Kong into getting crushed between two cars. He is not afraid to fight dirty, as he does when he throws dog crap into an opponent’s eyes. But, there's no doubt that Kraven is better with prep and strategy. Luckily, this battle is pretty straightforward.

They are starting very close to each other, so he will close and attack Kraven with his chainsaw staff. Its length gives him an advantage when it comes to closing, as Kraven’s melee weapons are shorter: while the staff is spinning, Kraven won’t be able to get in close enough to attack the Cowboy directly and it will be difficult for Kraven to accurately fire a ranged weapon (certainly not fired more than once) in the time it takes to the Cowboy to close.

The chainsaw is a weapon that will work very well against Kraven, as Kraven has no particular resistance against that kind of cutting/tearing weapon. It can dismember, disembowel, and decapitate Kraven very easily. Indeed the pain from being chainsawed would be enough to shock any opponent, so even a glancing blow will surely stun him with pain briefly. If Kraven gets within the chainsaw’s spinning circle, the Cowboy will either use his lengthy leaps to keep an appropriate distance so he can continue to use the chainsaws, or he will switch to pure hand to hand, and/or potentially use his revolver.

Kraven’s arsenal is nothing the Cowboy hasn’t seen before. He can dodge and potentially disarm him of melee weapons, and can dodge or catch ranged weapons, which Kraven is unlikely to get a chance to use well, given the difficulty of using a blowgun in a pitched battle. Whereas the Cowboy can easily shoot his revolver at close range. The Cowboy’s chainsaw staff gives him the advantage in weapons at this range.

Kraven obviously has extensive combat skills, enabling him to fight the stronger and faster Spider-man, but those skills are not as refined or as deep as the Cowboy’s. Shaolin Cowboy is a deep initiate of the Temple’s martial secrets and his techniques can achieve specific and powerful results, as enumerated above in Striking Power and Preferred Techniques, that are beyond Kraven’s general ability. Furthermore, while Kraven has a famous "nerve punch," his knowledge of chi pressure points is much less sophisticated than that of the Cowboy, who can achieve much more complex results than mere paralysis. The Cowboy has a solid advantage here.

Kraven has higher natural strength as a well-established 2-tonner, but Shaolin Cowboy can also lift and throw 2 tons using arcane techniques such as the Bull Elephant Extraction Maneuver.

They are similarly about the same in speed when Shaolin Cowboy amps himself with chi and other techniques. Kraven might be able to run faster but their reaction time will be approximately equal.

The same is true for their durability; if anything the Cowboy has greater endurance given his six-year battle underground resulting in him digging up through the earth.

Overall, while Kraven should certainly give him a great battle, based on his stats, skills, and weapons, I expect Shaolin Cowboy to overwhelm Kraven with his pure martial ability and massive damage output through both his chainsaw staff and his open-hand techniques.

I will introduce some of his fights and give more details about his enemies in the next post.

A NOTE ON HIS APPEARANCES

Shaolin Cowboy has only appeared in a few series: Shaolin Cowboy vol. 1, 1-7 (fights random humans, King Crab, and demons); Shaolin Cowboy vol. 2 aka Shemp Buffet 1-4 (fights zombies); Shaolin Cowboy: Who’ll Stop the Reign 1-4 (fights King Crab again, and Hog Kong); and Shaolin Cowboy Adventure Magazine (which takes the form of a canon illustrated novel, fights a bunch of different villains). Since there are so few appearances I’m not going to list the exact issue that each scan is from, but if you’d like to know the issue for any particular scan let me know.

The Shaolin Cowboy will soon return.
The Shaolin Cowboy will soon return.

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#4 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I should really stop re-using this.....

No Caption Provided

Kraven the Hunter

Bio:

Kraven was once the world's greatest hunter, fueled by jungle potions and pride, he thought that he could get the greatest prize (Spider-Man), and after years of work he actually succeed.

Stats:

Speed:

Kraven is fast enough to keep up and sometimes match Spider-Man in attack speed.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1. Kraven catches Black Suit Spider-Man with his cumbersome weapon.
  • Scan 2. Tags Kain (a bullet timer), who tried to blitz him.
  • Scan 3-4. Surprises (an albeit young and beat) Spider-Man, then blitzes him.

Kraven is also fast enough to dodge projectiles.

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  • Scan 1. Kraven dodges Black Panther's blades.
  • Scan 2-3. Kraven blitzes multiple gunners a few feet away.

Strength:

Can clash with 10 toners.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1. Clashes and hold down Tigra, a class-10 superhero.
  • Scan 2. Clashes and overpowers (classic Spider-Man) for a bit.

Strikes are strong enough to fodderize Dare Devil.

No Caption Provided

Strong enough to break bones:

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  • Scan 1. Snaps both his lion son's arms.
  • Scan 2. Breaks his wife's neck with one hand.
  • Scan 3. Shatters a Big Foot's limbs.

Durability:

Only two scans are really needed.

Smiles at a blood-lusted Spider-Man's punch
Smiles at a blood-lusted Spider-Man's punch

and this (plus context makes it three, but whatever)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1-2. Tanks Cyclops's optics and gets away unharmed.

Gear:

Lion Vest:

Here is a handbook page explaining what it does.

No Caption Provided

But the two main things I want to show is his speed sapping rays.

No Caption Provided

And his elephant knockout gas.

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Poisons:

He also posses poisons apart from his vest, poisons strong enough to affect even Agent Venom.

No Caption Provided

KO Tigra in one slash.

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Or make Blacksuit Spidey so weak that Kraven dominates him.

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Knives & Such:

Kraven uses an assortment of other stuff, like a net, a spear, a club knives and a shield.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He also has an Adamantium knife (which I mistakenly called Vibranium, sorry about that).

No Caption Provided

Conclusion:

Kraven is one tough cookie with plenty of firepower and poisons to bring even the toughest of monks down.

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#5 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

That's King_Hellstorm to you maggots

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#6 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Cool...I'll fix the vibranium>adamantium in the OP, and will have my next post up hopefully in the next few days-ish.

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#8 Edited by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm

I’m going to split this post in two. One, some of Shaolin Cowboy’s fights, which is the last of my introduction to the character. Two, a more detailed strategy/rebuttal to your post.

The Cowboy lays waste
The Cowboy lays waste

First, some of his battles.

Mass Fodder Battles

FIGHT 1: Shaolin Cowboy has done amazingly well against large mobs. Here he fights NINETY-SIX guys called the Revengers, all armed. This link shows them all in one place so you can see all of them. (In the original they are spread out over many pages, I combined them into one spread on the last page of the link.)

Granted these guys are fodder, as are the other fights in this subcategory. But defeating almost a hundred armed opponents is impressive no matter what, and he totally slaughters them. This requires an extensive ability to kill with one blow, time and again, while also avoiding attacks from all sides. Every top streetleveler can fight lots of fodder, but there is a breaking point when it comes to numbers. 96 is a pretty solid number.

FIGHT 2: Here he fights a nearly interminable number of zombies. This is only a fraction of the pages in this battle. The fight takes up almost four complete issues, nonstop. Again and again, he destroys zombies with massively destructive cuts from his chainsaw staff and his bare hands and feet. I am basically skipping a bunch in the middle that largely repeat the other pages. You can skip to the end where it shows how many he killed, which is at least many hundreds if not the low thousands.

FIGHT 3: The Cowboy fights another huge gang of human fodder. First he defeats two dogs with knives for legs, then uses them like nunchucks to tear apart the rest of the gang. You can see, in this extended version of the battle, how long he has to swing those things around, it would take incredible strength and endurance to do so. Again, he shows great precision and one-shot/one-kill attacks again and again, while also evading attacks from the gang.

FIGHT 4: The Cowboy fights a motorcycle gang using a gatling gun and some improvised weapons in the novel. He doesn’t have a gatling gun in this CaV, but he does have a revolver, and this shows off his gun skills.

Creature Battles

FIGHT 5: Here he fights several sharks, while balancing on a dead cow and then a suitcase in the water. The pages are naturally dark, sorry for any difficulty in reading. This shows his balance and agility along with the incredibly dangerous potential of his chainsaw staff as he cuts them to pieces.

FIGHT 6: Here the Cowboy defeats a mega-sized monster anaconda.

FIGHT 7: Here he defeats a giant-sized Komodo Dragon.

The backs of some issues show single images from battles not shown in the comics, such as:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Major Opponent Battles

FIGHT 8: He fights King Crab for the first time. Here is King Crab’s origin. He wanted to defeat the Cowboy, so he went to the same monastery as the Cowboy, where they taught him everything they thought he would need to know to defeat the Cowboy. He can break rocks with his claws, he is fast and durable. And yet the Cowboy wins. (Obviously the whole thing is absurd, but the point here is that he was specifically trained to beat the Cowboy by the people who originally trained the Cowboy, and still lost.)

FIGHT 9: The Shaolin Cowboy fights Hog Kong, another major enemy. Here is Hog Kong’s origin (look at the last two pages in particular). Not only is he huge, massively strong and durable, he also is very agile and has top-level ninja training as well! Even his normal-sized, unskilled mother hog was able to kill many people at once.

The Cowboy uses his great jumping abilities and you can see the serious striking power he has against the hog, as well as the Cowboy’s durability in taking hits from the hog. He eventually wins by tricking him into getting hit by some cars.

FIGHT 10: He fights King Crab again, who now controls the mind of a woman named Shelley. She can cut people’s heads in half with her hands while under his control. She gets in a huge number of hits on him with those deadly strikes, but he’s basically fine. He uses a number of arcane strikes on her ("Back fist punching at the meteor," "hungry bear taking honey from the beehive," "dragon appearing in the field") and also survives an equal number of arcane, dangerous attacks from her ("spiritual snake entwining around a pillar," "hungry crane capturing a snake," "lion breaking the trunk of a leopard," "old lion rushing at an elephant") and eventually knocks the crab off, across the street, and into a wok. (This is when he then uses a chi-touch to make her lose her memory.) Again, he shows great durability and then impressive striking power. I note all the specific techniques to point out the highly refined abilities of both Cowboy and Crab; they're not just throwing punches but using the exact technique called for at a particular time.

FIGHT 11 (BONUS ROUND!): He defeats a giant ghost-demon hell warden using, because, as it says, his “knowledge of hell law is matched only by [his] knowledge of hell warden weak points.” The Cowboy fights in a pure spirit form and avoids its magic sword, out-argues it in hell-law, and strikes its weak points, dissolving it. This shows his clear mastery of chi.

All these fights show us these lessons:

  • Shaolin Cowboy can defeat highly skilled enemies who also possess superhuman striking power and durability, much like Kraven, not to mention a number of large creatures with superhuman stats.
  • Shaolin Cowboy can deflect or avoid numerous simultaneous strikes from huge numbers of attackers with ease.
  • Shaolin Cowboy can constantly, repeatedly use single-strike-kill techniques for an almost inexhaustible supply of enemies. He will certainly be able, and likely, to use these on Kraven as well.
  • Shaolin Cowboy has incredible endurance and durability, and can handle Kraven’s punches.
  • Shaolin Cowboy’s chainsaw staff is a deadly mess of deadliness and a huge problem for Kraven.

Part 2: Rebuttal

I appreciate your post, it was short and sweet, and I liked seeing some of Kraven’s highlights. But, let’s look at the post in detail.

In terms of his strength and speed...

...I don't have much to say, I generally agree with all that you've got there. He's fast and strong. A few minor cavils...Kraven's multiple fights with Tigra have gone back and forth, Daredevil does tank a kick to the chest and tag Kraven a few times before the page you showed, and I'm curious about the canonicity of the "young and beat" Spider-man, but honestly that last one doesn't matter that much given that clearly Kraven can hang with Spider-man. The scene with him "blitzing multiple gunners a few feet away" is pretty good in terms of speed, but I'd just clarify that he mostly holds one of their guys in the way of all the shots, and that in terms of a fight against multiple fodder it pales in comparison to the Shaolin Cowboy's fodder fights above.

Kraven's Blunt Force Durability

The best argument was for Kraven’s durability. He can take a punch from Spider-man, and Cyclops’s beams. That’s true, but that’s not the whole story.

First, let's note the second page of those Cyclops scans, after Kraven gets blasted.

No Caption Provided

He’s on the ground, gritting his teeth and clenching his fist, and by no means just tanks the blow. Sure, he gets away, but he was clearly stunned by the blast. Second, Cyclops can control his beam’s power from destroying a molecule’s thickness off a wall to laying waste to a whole area, so we don't know how powerful that one beam was. Third, one reason to assume it was not a particularly powerful beam is that that Kraven/X-men story took place very early in their career, when Cyclops’s beams were usually used at a pretty weak level. If you're familiar with that era of X-men, he usually doesn't do a whole lot of damage with his beams when he uses them at a normal level back then, and even when he goes all out, it’s like the level of his average beam power in the modern time. So getting knocked down by a early-era Cyclops beam is not necessarily very impressive for Kraven.

Next, Kraven getting punched by Spider-man and smiling.

While this is a truly impressive feat, it’s a high outlier. First, in Kraven’s Last Hunt, Kraven was immersing himself with unusual kinds and amounts of mystic herbs--more than the usual ones that gave him his powers--in order to mimic Spidey’s mindset and abilities. Below: Kraven seemingly wall-crawling; Spidey saying that Kraven was mimicking his powers; one example of Kraven ingesting the unusual herbs he needs to further amp himself.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

So it's likely that his durability was amped in the scene you showed--especially considering what normally happens when he gets punched--

Because while Kraven certainly can take a punch from Spidey and continue fighting, he normally does NOT just stand there and take it. Here’s a number of random examples of Kraven clearly reeling from Spidey’s punches, including one that shows that Spidey can straight-up knock him out via punches. Some of these are old, but they’re largely from the same issues that you already brought up with the lion vest, so they’re fair game.

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And for that matter, here’s some shots of Kraven getting beat up by the fully-human Ka-zar—which while old, are from the same issue as the lion vest gas, so again fair game. Ka-zar eventually wins the fight by knocking Kraven off a cliff.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And here’s Kraven reeling from hits from Black Panther.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And here he reels from a hit by the second Vulture. "UNHHH..!"

No Caption Provided

I'm by no means saying he got knocked out by most of these punches (although he was in one of the Spidey scans). But they hurt, or stunned him, or took him off his game. He doesn't normally just stand there and grin.

And finally, here’s Black Widow knocking Kraven out with a single kick to the neck.

No Caption Provided

Black Widow was, incidentally, already physically "as weak as a kitten" by a dart from Kraven, so that’s not even her best hit. This comes from the comic you introduced where he beat Daredevil. Arguably this is hitting a weak point at the base of the neck, not pure blunt force like a typical Spider-man punch, but since Shaolin Cowboy is shown to be a master of chi and internal pressure points, that should be no issue for him to replicate.

So, I expect that Shaolin Cowboy’s punches, which can knock King Crab through multiple rocks, people, and a car, will do real damage to Kraven even in terms of pure blunt force impact of the kind that Spider-man uses with his plain, unskilled punches. Not that that’s all he’s going to use.

Cutting and Piercing Attacks

Because as we’ve seen, the Cowboy uses strikes—EVEN WITH HIS BARE HANDS—that are not just blunt force, but cutting. He routinely cuts through bodies, he pierces bodies, with his bare hands. And Kraven has no particular durability against cutting.

We can see that Kraven is vulnerable to piercing when, for instance in Kraven’s Last Hunt, he kills himself by shooting himself with a gun, or when Vermin bites him. (He’s also vulnerable to electricity as seen here, not that Cowboy has electricity, but just to underscore that Kraven is vulnerable in various ways.)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So even with Kraven’s blunt force durability, the Cowboy can just tear through Kraven’s body using his deadly cutting-hand strikes.

Of course, Kraven’s durability is even less effective against the Cowboy’s chainsaw, which can tear him to shreds, as already noted. I am just pointing out that he doesn’t even need the chainsaw to physically rip him apart.

And obviously his pistol will also be able to hurt Kraven as well.

The Lion Vest

The gas should be no problem. The scan you showed gave its own solution: Shaolin Cowboy can hold his breath just like Ka-Zar did, with no problem.

The speed-sapping blasts are also not a big problem. Right after he shoots them, Spidey just dodges them in a pretty easy move that the Cowboy can certainly duplicate. Kraven can’t really aim the eyes much, they just shoot forward, so it’s not a big deal to stay out of their way. Plus he tends to telegraph it by announcing them when he uses them. Then the Cowboy can close and tear them out of the vest as Spidey did.

No Caption Provided

Even if they did hit, it’s one thing to steal Spidey or Ka-zar’s speed, and another to steal Shaolin Cowboy’s. First, it’s only temporary, so the Cowboy only has to keep Kraven at bay for a while with his spinning chainsaw while it abates. Second, Spidey’s speed is inherent and static. It just is what it is. While Shaolin Cowboy gets his speed by enhancing himself with chi, which is a renewable and increasable resource. For instance, consider his build-up of chi when he healed himself, or here where he rebuilds his energy after fighting a lot of the zombies, to prepare himself for fighting more zombies. If he gets his speed stolen, he can just further increase his chi flow.

Other Weapons

The adamantium dagger is no big deal in this context. The Cowboy has nothing to cut that couldn’t already be cut by a normal blade. It’s dangerous, but no more dangerous than any other knife.

Kraven's poisons are powerful, no doubt. But, they have to hit. I did think we were sticking to poison darts, which I don't have much concern about him dodging in the middle of battle. If we're also talking poison on all his melee weapons, then I may want to amp up Shaolin Cowboy's weapons to include his own poisoned shuriken, for example. Kraven doesn't usually have all his weapons at all times. But either way, one of the Cowboy's advantages in this fight, as I've said, is the extreme range of his spinning chainsaw staff. It will be hard for Kraven to get inside its reach without getting mutilated, and thus hard to make contact with any melee poisons. There are also examples of, for instance, Black Panther staying on the run until the poison ran its course and metabolized out of his bloodstream, which the Cowboy could also do.

So, overall, Shaolin Cowboy’s strategy from my first post hasn’t changed much.

He still has a clear path to win by:

While defensively:

Looking forward to your response, take your time!

Fear the Shaolin Cowboy!
Fear the Shaolin Cowboy!

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#9 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9887 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Moderator
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#10 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V this looks good

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#11 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

Rebuttals:

Speed and Strength

...I don't have much to say, I generally agree with all that you've got there. He's fast and strong. A few minor cavils...Kraven's multiple fights with Tigra have gone back and forth,

Yes, which only confirms my statement of Kraven clashing with 10 tonners.

Daredevil does tank a kick to the chest and tag Kraven a few times before the page you showed,

He tanks a single hit and in the panel after it looks like he was struggling to keep upright.

and I'm curious about the canonicity of the "young and beat" Spider-man, but honestly that last one doesn't matter that much given that clearly Kraven can hang with Spider-man.

It was marketed as canon, so to me it is.

When Robbie Thompson was asked about whether he was doing a re-telling or not he said "We’re looking at this book as less a “re-telling” and more of a look at Peter’s younger years." which means the stories they write are canon to 616 Spidey, it isn't a re-telling which would make it non-canon but instead is just extra stories about Peter when he was 15. Marvel.com also indirectly says it is canon while describing the first issue by saying "Think you know everything about Peter Parker’s early days? Think again. It’s action, adventure and a rip-roaring romp in classic Marvel style as SPIDEY swings onto shelves this winter! Featuring adventures from throughout the web-slinging wonder’s younger years...." basically saying that this is Spidey in his younger days, the same Spidey as today. So in short it is canon unless directly stated otherwise.

And even if it was not canon, it still shows the writer's intent of what they think Kraven and Spidey would be like, which is still applicable here.

The scene with him "blitzing multiple gunners a few feet away" is pretty good in terms of speed, but I'd just clarify that he mostly holds one of their guys in the way of all the shots, and that in terms of a fight against multiple fodder it pales in comparison to the Shaolin Cowboy's fodder fights above.

Perhaps in terms of vs fodder, but that is mostly because, as Daredevil tells him, he is "too used to tackling one prey at a time." which, luckily enough is exactly what he will be doing here, I will elaborate more on Kraven's pure speed later but for now I am just going to say that I do not think Shaolin holds any sort of advantage.

Kraven's Blunt Force Durability

First, let's note the second page of those Cyclops scans, after Kraven gets blasted.

He’s on the ground, gritting his teeth and clenching his fist, and by no means just tanks the blow. Sure, he gets away, but he was clearly stunned by the blast

Yes, I showed that scan and to me that is called tanking, if he did not get hurt at all it would be no selling.

Second, Cyclops can control his beam’s power from destroying a molecule’s thickness off a wall to laying waste to a whole area, so we don't know how powerful that one beam was.

1. That is a deference in area, not power. 2. We may not know how powerful that blast was, but considering Kraven just speared angel out of the sky I would bet that he used one of his more powerful attacks.

Third, one reason to assume it was not a particularly powerful beam is that that Kraven/X-men story took place very early in their career, when Cyclops’s beams were usually used at a pretty weak level. If you're familiar with that era of X-men, he usually doesn't do a whole lot of damage with his beams when he uses them at a normal level back then, and even when he goes all out, it’s like the level of his average beam power in the modern time. So getting knocked down by a early-era Cyclops beam is not necessarily very impressive for Kraven.

I though you said this was him at full power?

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And if it isn't then which one of these would be Cyclops from the Kraven story? One, two, three and four. Because they all look classic and they all are OP, also I am not familiar with the super early X-Men, so this is a genuine question.

While this is a truly impressive feat, it’s a high outlier. First, in Kraven’s Last Hunt, Kraven was immersing himself with unusual kinds and amounts of mystic herbs--more than the usual ones that gave him his powers--in order to mimic Spidey’s mindset and abilities. Below: Kraven seemingly wall-crawling; Spidey saying that Kraven was mimicking his powers; one example of Kraven ingesting the unusual herbs he needs to further amp himself.

And yet Kraven shows none of the powers of Spider-Man in his actual fight with Vermin.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

As for the amp, I highly doubt that those juices caused him anything but "(pain!)" he was literally drinking poison according to his own thoughts. Asides from that, the man was quite literally insane. Here he is fighting statues while naked.

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So his credibility should be thrown right out of the window. I also doubt that he just had strength amping potion lying around that he didn't use for some reason, considering how he got the first potions.

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As you can see, he stole his potion from a witch doctor in Africa, whereas he probably made the one he was drinking in your scans.

Because while Kraven certainly can take a punch from Spidey and continue fighting, he normally does NOT just stand there and take it. Here’s a number of random examples of Kraven clearly reeling from Spidey’s punches, including one that shows that Spidey can straight-up knock him out via punches.

Let us examine your scans closely.

Scan 1. Spider man hits him twice in here so it isn't really fair to say that he should be able to tank two hits like he tanked one, also he is very clearly conscious in the last panel as you can see his eyes are open.

Scan 2. I actually find this hilarious, Spidey here is hitting Kraven with a full powered blow yet Kraven still talks normally and he talks about using his weapons, that hit did not even distract Kraven's thoughts.

Scan 3. I don't actually know why you bring this up because I consider this to be amazingly impressive for Kraven, Why? Because Spidey says in the scan that he used a punch that could stagger Hulk. This one (literally this one btw, Spidey annual 3)

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Which also downs the Hulk, but do you know what the difference between the two scans are? 1. Recovery time. Hulk gets up neigh instantly but Kraven does not. and 2. Kraven stayed upright and wobbled for a few seconds when at the same time Hulk fell down instantly.

Scan 4. He pretty much no sold that hit, panel 3 he gets hit, panel 4 he is shown to be having that same grin while he stands upright completely unharmed. And no, he did not grit his teeth cause of the hit, his teeth were out pretty much the whole page.

Some of these are old, but they’re largely from the same issues that you already brought up with the lion vest, so they’re fair game.

Not really how it works. Just cause I used a classic gear, does not mean you can use classic durability feats when modern Kraven is more durable than classic Kraven.

And for that matter, here’s some shots of Kraven getting beat up by the fully-human Ka-zar—which while old, are from the same issue as the lion vest gas, so again fair game. Ka-zar eventually wins the fight by knocking Kraven off a cliff.

You say that as if Ka-Zar isn't a powerhouse himself. But KaZar is.

Here he is making Black Panther fly with his hit (but thanks to the suit is unharmed).

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Here he is pretty much manhandling DD in the dar where DD should be at an advantage.

H
H

And here he is making Skaar spit with a hit (which Skaar allowed him to take but he did not lower his durability)

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And here’s Kraven reeling from hits from Black Panther.

Not only is BP one of Marvel's top tier street levelers, but he was also fighting a Kraven who was basically just allowing himself to get his as he was immortal at the time and as he said himself, sooner or later BP will fall and he cannot. He also does not look that affected in the first attack and the second one was no mere punch.

And here he reels from a hit by the second Vulture. "UNHHH..!"

I would actually argue that the Vulture is stronger than Shaolin, because that guy was a beast (and while the person in the scan is not the real Vulture, he used the same suit so feats should translate), I mean here he is literally throwing a helicopter to the ground like nothing

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And his punches were stated to have the strength of a wrecking ball (which could be hyperbole, but it still flattened DD where Kraven merely reeled).

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So again, all in all, I fail to see how these are low showings for Kraven. In fact, I would argue that these are great feats which softens this statement (which you made when Kraven smiled at a punch):

it’s a high outlier.

Kraven's Durability Extended

Now, I want to cover my grounds to show you why Kraven is a beast, yes you have done a great job showing his classic feats but let us move on to modern.

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As you can see here he is rammed by a dumpster truck and is then crushed by the trash compacter which can crush cars, yet Kraven gets out 100% fine, and no he did not escape before being crushed as he hear the dumpster truck doing its thing, Kraven only escapes after the fact.

He also survived a beating from the Hulk and remained conscious after his teeth was knocked out by the Hulk.

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Not only that but he was his by this massive blast

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But guess who comes back unharmed at the start of the next issue? That's right, Kraven.

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If that is not enough he fought with Rocket CQC many times during Rocket's series and Rocket is pretty OP, being able to slam Miles

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Also to put your Last Hunt fears aside, here is Grimm Hunt's version of Kraven being injured by a bloodlusted Spidey

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This is what happened after. No pain, or shouting, he pretty much acted as if he was just kicked down when it was his bones breaking. He also just wanted to die.

Cutting and Piercing Attacks

I don't have anything to say here, I didn't claim Kraven would be able to tank a piercing wound (not that I am saying that you said I did) and I will admit that he cannot, but can Shaolin?

Lion's Vest

The gas should be no problem. The scan you showed gave its own solution: Shaolin Cowboy can hold his breath just like Ka-Zar did, with no problem.

Except he can pull a Batman and force Shaolin to breath.

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The speed-sapping blasts are also not a big problem. Right after he shoots them, Spidey just dodges them in a pretty easy move that the Cowboy can certainly duplicate. Kraven can’t really aim the eyes much, they just shoot forward, so it’s not a big deal to stay out of their way. Plus he tends to telegraph it by announcing them when he uses them. Then the Cowboy can close and tear them out of the vest as Spidey did.

Like Spidey did? I agree actually.

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1. This is Spidey without knowledge on the sapper like Shaolin now, so this is a way more accurate example and 2. Lol at Kraven's head snapping back after he gets hit like nothing happened to him.

Even if they did hit, it’s one thing to steal Spidey or Ka-zar’s speed, and another to steal Shaolin Cowboy’s. First, it’s only temporary, so the Cowboy only has to keep Kraven at bay for a while with his spinning chainsaw while it abates.

Impossible. Ka Zar was hit with it and he went down, he had no strength to stand much less enough to swing a chainsaw.

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Second, Spidey’s speed is inherent and static. It just is what it is. While Shaolin Cowboy gets his speed by enhancing himself with chi, which is a renewable and increasable resource.

Sort of like a healing factor or a super power? Cause Kraven shuts down super powers

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And Deadpool who went back in time to face 616 Kraven (who became another timeline because of DP) was also similarly stunned by the stun blast despite his regen

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For instance, consider his build-up of chi when he healed himself, or here where he rebuilds his energy after fighting a lot of the zombies, to prepare himself for fighting more zombies. If he gets his speed stolen, he can just further increase his chi flow

Too bad he has to do a little dance he has no strength to do in order to get stamina back.

Other Weapons

The adamantium dagger is no big deal in this context. The Cowboy has nothing to cut that couldn’t already be cut by a normal blade. It’s dangerous, but no more dangerous than any other knife.

Wrong-o sir. With his Adamantium knife he can simply parry your iconic chainsaw staff to make it useless from the start. See, a normal knife would be nothing to the chainsaw staff but an Adamantium one will make the chainsaw's own momentum slice itself once it meets the blade. Best part is, Shaolin has no way to know this, so he may try to slice of Kraven's arm while assume Kraven holds a normal knif, but once Kraven parries his attack, his main weapon get busted.

Kraven's poisons are powerful, no doubt. But, they have to hit.

Which they will.

I did think we were sticking to poison darts, which I don't have much concern about him dodging in the middle of battle. If we're also talking poison on all his melee weapons

Pretty sure I only used poisoned darts, unless you are referring to Tigra, but I don't consider that a melee weapon.

then I may want to amp up Shaolin Cowboy's weapons to include his own poisoned shuriken, for example.

Thrown projectiles are nothing to Kraven.

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Kraven doesn't usually have all his weapons at all times.

Well classic Kraven kinda did, he always kept it in his vest and held a spear most of the time. Modern Kraven almost always preps before a fights so I don't know what would be standard for him in terms of a random encounter.

But either way, one of the Cowboy's advantages in this fight, as I've said, is the extreme range of his spinning chainsaw staff.

Which again will be wrecked by the Adamantium blade.

It will be hard for Kraven to get inside its reach without getting mutilated, and thus hard to make contact with any melee poisons. There are also examples of, for instance, Black Panther staying on the run until the poison ran its course and metabolized out of his bloodstream, which the Cowboy could also do.

BP specifically has an elevated metabolism.

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Other times people just don't move any more like Tigra, as I showed earlier or Spidey and Widow

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Now the second scan is of Kraven's son, but he used the same gear that his father did.

Kraven vs Shaolin Cowboy

Speed

To me Shaolin is fast enough to create after images

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Although in combat he does not seem that quick, and yes he is "dodging" bullets but it seems he is more using his skill to make the gunmen miss.

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Side note: I find that scans like these are purely for artistic reasons, I don't believe the writers wanted to convey speed there.

Compare that to this, which is much better after image making and is in combat.

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Or this, which is honestly pretty hard to judge but it may be FTE or just quick reactions enough to tag a casual bullet timer.

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Also Kraven is one of the few Spidey rouges that can actually go 1v1 with Spidey and tag him consistently.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
First 3 is an almost full fight which happened in ASM 34, which he lost cause Spidey out stats him and the last one is a random scan from ASM 47

To me it seems as if Kraven has the edge here, I mean Shaolin's most comparable feat is this one but Kraven's still is more impressive when you consider just who he is fighting.

Category Winner: Kraven.

Strength

On one hand you have Shaolin who knocks around a giant pig

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And kicks this crab through many boulders and people (just people shown here).

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And in the other hand we have Kraven smashing through walls and doors like a bull

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And striking Spidey+ characters around.

Venom was poisoned but was also entering Vulk mode
Venom was poisoned but was also entering Vulk mode
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Scarlet didn't want to fight but still, his durability remains the same
Clean overpowering right here
Clean overpowering right here

So all in all, I believe that we are at a tie, Shaolin has better fantastical feats while Kraven has better tangible feats.

Category Winner: Tie.

Nerve Strikes

Shaolin knows basic nerve strikes of course

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Which he can use to heal himself

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While Kraven uses his to make limbs stop working

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Or to disable people completely

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I think Kraven has better showings of offensive use, seeing as how he used his to instantly take out well known characters and disable them but Shaolin does have the defensive edge, but I highly doubt that he will be given time to do his little dance so I think Kraven had the edge.

Category Winner: Kraven.

Durability

Not going to get too much into this since I provided a whole section for Kraven, and I do not think Shaolin is that durable. I mean here his face is pounded by a girl whose only feat is cutting people with hands

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He also gets dazed when this bag full of stuff hits his head.

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Overall I would say Kraven gets this category easily, I mean Shaolin's best showing for this category is probably this one but it just does not compare to eating a blast that knocked over the Statue of Liberty or remaining standing after getting hit by a blow that staggered Hulk (he did fall but he wobbled for a while).

Category Winner: Kraven.

Weapons:

The last one I will cover is weapons and I have nothing really to say here since both have pretty normal gear except for the chainsaw staff and the, Adamantium and the poisons. While I admit that the chainsaw blade is the most destructive weapon on here, I do think that Adamantium counters it while Kraven's various poisons will give him the edge, proving an easy way to take Shaolin out if he can land a hit or giving him a moment of rest using his sapper.

Category Winner: Kraven.

Overall

It is Kraven with every advantage in the game, even if I went softer and made strength tie and gave you speed, he would still have more advantages in terms of durability and weapons.

The Battle: How Kraven Wins

I have covered the why, but here I will cover the how which is pretty basic. Kraven only needs to land one hit with either a poison dart or a speed sapper, he doesn't even need to land an immobilizing hit, just one that will slow/weaken Shaolin down. If he does that he wins, game over. Why? Because without the speed or strength to do anything Kraven will have seconds to butcher Shaolin with his knife, which is more than enough time to finish the battle.

So basically I envision it going something like this:

  1. Shaolin uses his chainsaw staff to swing at Kraven, Kraven narrowly dodges the first swing and parries the next using his Adamantium blade which breaks the saws.
  2. Shaolin will use his now chainsaw spear to keep Kraven at a distance while he uses his shurikens and revolver to try to tag him, but Kraven retaliates with his own poison darts. Neither can dodge and hit the mark at the same time to they both decide to ditch range and go mono a mano, their specialties.
  3. Kraven then leaps towards Shaolin and destroys his chainsaw spear completely with his blade again, but Shaolin expects that and uses the opportunity to his Kraven with numerous strikes as he lands. Krvaen reels but recovers.
  4. Kraven then pounces at Shaolin with his blade, the two then start to exchange hits, blow for blow, stat for stat, the battle rages but no victor comes fourth. That is until Kraven sees his perfect opportunity to fire his speed sapper and instantly crumbles to the floor, he senses the danger of the situation so he tries to use his chi techniques on himself but Kraven catches on quickly and again with his Adamantium, slices down on the monk delivering a deliberating blow.
  5. Finally Kraven picks up the Monk by the throat and finishes the battle.

This is not my strategy or anything like that, it is just a fun way I thought the battle would go.

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio
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@king_hellstorm: Sorry to take so long. Here we go:

I have a few new scans from the novel that I overlooked earlier.

In support of speed:

The Cowboy springs to his feet “in a motion too quick and smooth for the few remaining eyes to follow.”

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The Cowboy faces four bikers holding guns. In the time it takes for them to give each other the thumb’s up, he draws and then shoots three of them multiple times.

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An additional detail on the time he spins like a top: he throws his sword in the air, then pulls out a bunch of rods, spins like a top, and throws them before the sword falls back down and he catches it. Then he “effortlessly dismembers” those in reach.

In support of abstract skill and accuracy with random objects: he “feather-kicks” a bunch of chairs, throws his sack in the air, and the chairs stack up on top of each other with the sack next to them.

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And I can’t believe I didn’t point out this one:

He has a Lethal Levitation move that, presumably by using his chi, allows him to levitate above head level, thus allowing him to decapitate people more easily.

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Rebuttal to the rebuttals:

Speed and Strength

Daredevil does tank a kick to the chest and tag Kraven a few times before the page you showed,

He tanks a single hit and in the panel after it looks like he was struggling to keep upright.

I don’t get the “struggling to stay upright” from that at all. He’s swinging around soon after.

and I'm curious about the canonicity of the "young and beat" Spider-man, but honestly that last one doesn't matter that much given that clearly Kraven can hang with Spider-man.

Regarding "Is Spidey Canon"?

The writer makes it clear that it’s canon in the interview, that’s fine I just wanted to check given the art style which looked more kid-oriented.

The scene with him "blitzing multiple gunners a few feet away" is pretty good in terms of speed, but I'd just clarify that he mostly holds one of their guys in the way of all the shots, and that in terms of a fight against multiple fodder it pales in comparison to the Shaolin Cowboy's fodder fights above.

Perhaps in terms of vs fodder, but that is mostly because, as Daredevil tells him, he is "too used to tackling one prey at a time." which, luckily enough is exactly what he will be doing here, I will elaborate more on Kraven's pure speed later but for now I am just going to say that I do not think Shaolin holds any sort of advantage.

It's more a point of, how formidable a fighter are they, and what are they capable of? For instance, are they capable of avoiding serious wounds while being attacked so constantly for so long from all sides? If so, this says something about their ability to defend against attacks from a single attacker. Shaolin Cowboy’s ability to engage in all these mass-fodder fights shows his defensive skills and offensive skills are extremely efficient and effective.

Kraven's Blunt Force Durability

First, let's note the second page of those Cyclops scans, after Kraven gets blasted.

He’s on the ground, gritting his teeth and clenching his fist, and by no means just tanks the blow. Sure, he gets away, but he was clearly stunned by the blast

Yes, I showed that scan and to me that is called tanking, if he did not get hurt at all it would be no selling.

We may just differ in terms then. I would define tanking as the ability to take a blow with little effect, being able to brave your way through it, and no-selling as having no effect at all. Kraven clearly feels that hit. To me, that’s not tanking, that’s barely dealing with.

Second, Cyclops can control his beam’s power from destroying a molecule’s thickness off a wall to laying waste to a whole area, so we don't know how powerful that one beam was.

1. That is a deference in area, not power. 2. We may not know how powerful that blast was, but considering Kraven just speared angel out of the sky I would bet that he used one of his more powerful attacks.

No, it’s a difference in power. We can really get into the weeds of Cyclops’s blasts if you want, since this is an area of specialty for me, but in the one he is controlling his blast so it is extremely weak, and only blasts a molecule’s thickness off a wall. Here’s another example of him cutting a cake, if you’d rather have another example of it at a weak level. Or here’s an example of him pushing a group of people backwards, or slamming a door without destroying it, and here’s an example of him knocking some chunks of ice off Angel’s wings without hurting him. Cyclops’ ability to control the power of his blasts is not a question.

Third, one reason to assume it was not a particularly powerful beam is that that Kraven/X-men story took place very early in their career, when Cyclops’s beams were usually used at a pretty weak level. If you're familiar with that era of X-men, he usually doesn't do a whole lot of damage with his beams when he uses them at a normal level back then, and even when he goes all out, it’s like the level of his average beam power in the modern time. So getting knocked down by a early-era Cyclops beam is not necessarily very impressive for Kraven.

I though you said this was him at full power?

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That was pretty full blast, but it’s from the X-factor era, not the early days.

And if it isn't then which one of these would be Cyclops from the Kraven story? One, two, three and four. Because they all look classic and they all are OP, also I am not familiar with the super early X-Men, so this is a genuine question.

Those are classic, and of decent power (I don’t think anyone thinks that one scene was intended to prove that Cyclops’ blast is literally more powerful than Thor’s grip, because it is definitely not)—but again I’d say they are largely like his modern-day normal power. His modern day massive power is way, way more powerful. But again, I don’t think we need to get too into the details of Cyclops’s blasts here; I’ll just give one example of a pretty normal blast for him in the old days, where it takes him 3 panels for him to knock through Bobby’s block of ice and then hits Bobby in the head, which Bobby survives just fine. His normal blasts are in the concussive range of a Spider-man punch.

It is also important to understand that while he may have been worried about Angel in the Kraven fight, the super-self-controlled Scott would not just lash out. He spent his whole life being worried about accidentally killing someone. He would not go all out on anyone without knowing that they could take it.

The effects of energy blasts in comics are always a little random anyway. Here’s Cyclops himself, who is not energy resistant to anything except his and his brother Havok’s exact energy signatures, getting blasted by Blastaar “The Living Bomb-Burst.”

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Blastaar’s shots are enormously powerful, and he said multiple times that he wanted to kill the heroes here, so he was most definitely not holding back against Cyclops. Cyke gets blasted full-on, and a page later he’s up and about like nothing happened.

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So, while I have no doubt that Kraven has solid blunt force durability as I’ve already agreed, it is not particularly amazing that Kraven would walk away from getting hit by an old-school Cyclops blast.

While this is a truly impressive feat, it’s a high outlier. First, in Kraven’s Last Hunt, Kraven was immersing himself with unusual kinds and amounts of mystic herbs--more than the usual ones that gave him his powers--in order to mimic Spidey’s mindset and abilities. Below: Kraven seemingly wall-crawling; Spidey saying that Kraven was mimicking his powers; one example of Kraven ingesting the unusual herbs he needs to further amp himself.

And yet Kraven shows none of the powers of Spider-Man in his actual fight with Vermin.

Not showing them in that scene doesn't mean he wouldn’t show them in others. Besides, how many different powers does Spider-man have? Just wall-crawling and spider-sense beyond the strength and speed that Kraven already uses in a fight. Kraven already showed the wall-crawling. All Kraven needed was his own particularly ferocious fighting style against Vermin, other powers were not needed.

As for the amp, I highly doubt that those juices caused him anything but "(pain!)" he was literally drinking poison according to his own thoughts. Asides from that, the man was quite literally insane. Here he is fighting statues while naked.

So his credibility should be thrown right out of the window. I also doubt that he just had strength amping potion lying around that he didn't use for some reason, considering how he got the first potions.

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As you can see, he stole his potion from a witch doctor in Africa, whereas he probably made the one he was drinking in your scans.

It’s not Kraven’s credibility that matters, it was Peter who said that Kraven was mimicking his powers. Also, Kraven clearly put quite a bit of effort into this scheme, including putting himself through a real gauntlet of potion stuff. I am quite sure that going to the ends of the earth to get the exact kind of potions he needed for this particular hunt would be very in character for him. That’s really the entire point of this arc—he wanted to beat Spider-man, so he whipped up some extra-special herbs to make himself the new spider. This isn’t beyond his ability either; since his other potion gave him the powers of other existing animals like a cheetah and gorilla, getting the powers of a spider fits perfectly into that pattern. As to whether he made the potion himself or got it from another shaman, the story doesn’t say, but obviously it did something, he’s not drinking it for no reason. He thinks it will help him win. This did drive him insane, by putting him in a spider mindset, but it also clearly amped him up. Even if you disagree that it gave him spider-powers specifically, it obviously pushed him past his normal points, and at a very minimum acted as a sort of adrenaline that would let him ignore pain through madness and giving in to the intensity of the moment and to his belief that he was now the spider.

Because while Kraven certainly can take a punch from Spidey and continue fighting, he normally does NOT just stand there and take it. Here’s a number of random examples of Kraven clearly reeling from Spidey’s punches, including one that shows that Spidey can straight-up knock him out via punches.

Let us examine your scans closely.

Scan 1. Spider man hits him twice in here so it isn't really fair to say that he should be able to tank two hits like he tanked one, also he is very clearly conscious in the last panel as you can see his eyes are open.

My only point here is that Kraven can’t just ignore his blows and stand there and smile like he did in that one single instance in Kraven’s Last Hunt. I’m not at all arguing that Kraven is weak. Just that he is susceptible to Spidey’s blows, to being knocked back, to feeling some pain from all the “uhhhhhhs” he tends to say when he gets hit, and ultimately to being knocked out upon enough blows. I’m glad you agree that multiple blows do affect him.

Scan 2. I actually find this hilarious, Spidey here is hitting Kraven with a full powered blow yet Kraven still talks normally and he talks about using his weapons, that hit did not even distract Kraven's thoughts.

For example, here’s one of the “uhhhhhhs.” Kraven talking here while getting knocked back is nothing unusual. Comics letterers have to find a place to put in the text somewhere, and there’s not always space where you want. One of my favorite panels is from X-men, where two guys are talking, then one flies away and while clearly hundreds of feet in the air and outside of the house they were in, is still responding to the other guy. Anyway, point here is that Kraven gets knocked back, and feels the punch.

Scan 3. I don't actually know why you bring this up because I consider this to be amazingly impressive for Kraven, Why? Because Spidey says in the scan that he used a punch that could stagger Hulk. This one (literally this one btw, Spidey annual 3)

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I used it because Spidey clean knocks out Kraven with a gut punch, showing that there are very clearly limits to Kraven’s blunt force durability. (And again, “whuppf.”)

I figured you’d bring up the Hulk; I didn’t want to fake the context by cutting it out. First, c’mon, we all know Spider-man in any normal situation can’t stagger the Hulk. Bring this up in any Spider-man/Hulk battle debate and it would obviously get laughed out of the thread. Here, Spidey says that Hulk’s strength takes a while to get to its fullest, and the Hulk of that era was also often shown to be much weaker than he is today. For instance, here he is unable to break out of a prison, which (while designed specifically to hold him) is clearly just a metal door maybe a couple feet thick held by a big piston. He can’t break out after pounding all night long.

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And here, more specifically to the point about Spider-man, Hulk is “stunned” after being hit by a high-pressure water hose and is trussed up in a net just like he is by Spidey. So I think we can assume that if the Hulk of this era can be stunned by a water hose, he can be stunned by Spider-man, and that that “Hulk beating” feat means essentially nothing at all regarding Kraven.

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Scan 4. He pretty much no sold that hit, panel 3 he gets hit, panel 4 he is shown to be having that same grin while he stands upright completely unharmed. And no, he did not grit his teeth cause of the hit, his teeth were out pretty much the whole page.

Another “Uhhh,” and another example of Kraven not standing there smiling from a punch. I appreciate you wanting to give these extra attention.

Some of these are old, but they’re largely from the same issues that you already brought up with the lion vest, so they’re fair game.

Not really how it works. Just cause I used a classic gear, does not mean you can use classic durability feats when modern Kraven is more durable than classic Kraven.

Is he? Not that you’ve shown. There were the “super-healing factor” days, but those are gone now that he’s been resurrected by Kaine. More on that later, but I would say he seems about the same—solid but not insurmountable blunt force durability.

And for that matter, here’s some shots of Kraven getting beat up by the fully-human Ka-zar—which while old, are from the same issue as the lion vest gas, so again fair game. Ka-zar eventually wins the fight by knocking Kraven off a cliff.

You say that as if Ka-Zar isn't a powerhouse himself. But KaZar is.

Here he is making Black Panther fly with his hit (but thanks to the suit is unharmed).

Black Panther is a peak human, not made of rock. It’s not surprising at all that someone should be able to knock him backwards with a connected punch.

Here he is pretty much manhandling DD in the dar where DD should be at an advantage.

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First, this isn’t in the dark, that one dark panel is just an example of what DD’s radar sense looks like to him. Second, I’d never say Ka-Zar is a weakling. But it’s one thing to make the fully-human DD reel, another to make Kraven reel. If your point is that Kraven has the same blunt force durability as Daredevil and Black Panther, that’s cool with me.

And here he is making Skaar spit with a hit (which Skaar allowed him to take but he did not lower his durability)

Again, this is obviously kind of silly if we take it to mean that the fully-human (he doesn’t even have the super soldier serum his wife has) Ka-Zar has the ability to physically force Skaar’s neck muscles around against Skaar’s will. What we see here is Skaar letting him punch him, as Skaar says. Skaar rolls with the punch, probably to keep Ka-Zar from breaking his hand. Punching the spittle out? If it was blood it would be one thing. Spittle? Eh, he just had some spit in his mouth and it flew out upon contact when his cheeks flapped a bit with the punch. The spittle isn't really a sign of anything amazing.

regarding punches from Black Panther and Vulture...

Once more, the point is that Kraven doesn’t just stand there smiling, he feels the hit, grunts and gets knocked back, to the degree (in many of these scenes) that he is slightly taken off-beat and can’t just continue what he was doing.

Let me add just one more of him reeling from a punch, this time from Venom (who granted is stronger than Peter, but not so much that Kraven could no-sell a punch from Pete but have to reel like this from Venom).

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So again, all in all, I fail to see how these are low showings for Kraven. In fact, I would argue that these are great feats which softens this statement (which you made when Kraven smiled at a punch):

it’s a high outlier.

To sum up here, I never said these other punches that we just looked at were LOW showings—I think they’re NORMAL showings for him, and show good blunt force durability. They are just not the same as the HIGH OUTLIER of him smiling at the punch in Kraven’s Last Hunt. In other words, if we look at, say, 20 punches Kraven has taken from reasonable hitters, almost all of them (as I’ve shown) are going to knock him back, make him go “UHHHHH,” etc. So when you see one where he just stands there and smiles, that is a high outlier that does not fit the pattern of the rest, and can be discarded. Especially when the context of that story arc makes it clear that he’s blitzed out of his mind on spider-juice and at a minimum feeling no pain.

Kraven's Durability Extended

Now, I want to cover my grounds to show you why Kraven is a beast, yes you have done a great job showing his classic feats but let us move on to modern.

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As you can see here he is rammed by a dumpster truck and is then crushed by the trash compacter which can crush cars, yet Kraven gets out 100% fine, and no he did not escape before being crushed as he hear the dumpster truck doing its thing, Kraven only escapes after the fact.

I’d guess that he manages to cut his way out before the compacter completes its process, or perhaps uses that adamantium knife to cut apart the workings of the compacter soon after they start so they don’t hurt him.

He also survived a beating from the Hulk and remained conscious after his teeth was knocked out by the Hulk.

This was BEFORE he was killed and resurrected by Kaine, and thus while he still had a ridiculous healing factor. So while it was in fact an amazing feat of durability, it is not pertinent here because he doesn’t have that healing factor any more.

Not only that but he was his by this massive blast

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But guess who comes back unharmed at the start of the next issue? That's right, Kraven.

First, “massive blasts” often end up doing nothing to characters, they’re more random than energy blasts. Here’s the fully human Dick Grayson surviving three enormous blasts, and here’s the fully-human Red Dagger, and one of Ms. Marvel’s fully-human friends dressed in her costume, doing the same (Red Dagger being just a winded and nauseous even after being so close, and being knocked so far in the air; he comes back soon after and is fine).

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So, in comics pretty much anyone can survive a massive blast. Second, as we can see in the scan, Rocket is in the upper left corner shielding himself behind something, and Kraven is in the lower right corner doing the same. Presumably they are about equally shielded and distant, given the intentional artistic symmetry in the image. So, if Rocket survived, then it’s not shocking that Kraven did too. Seems like they were far enough and shielded enough to be fine.

Moving on...

I am also happy to extend my own investigation into Kraven’s durability. Let’s look at examples of him getting knocked out.

Here’s Kraven after being knocked out off-panel by a modified Doom-bot, presumably by his claw-arms.

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Here, in one of the scans you supplied, Spider-man knocks him out after multiple blows. I want to be clear, I’m not saying Kraven is weak here, just that Kraven was knocked out by three punches.

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Here, Spider-man again knocks him out with one punch to the stomach.

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Here, Jessica Drew (who is considered to be slightly weaker than Peter, more of a 7-tonner) kicks him, punches him, they both miss, and then she knocks him out with a combination punch/venom blast. Three hits including one with energy to knock him out.

Here, Kaine (who granted is stronger than Pete) kills Kraven with one blow to the heart.

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This is interesting for two reasons. One, this was when Kraven had a massive healing factor, which he does NOT have anymore. After Kaine resurrects him, the curse is over and Kraven is back to normal. So Shaolin doesn’t even have to do this level of damage to Kraven to kill him. Two, a lot of people interpret this scene as Kaine using his spike to penetrate Kraven’s heart, but I don’t think that’s what happens. Kaine very specifically says “the IMPACT stops his heart”—not a spike, not penetration. If he spiked his heart, he’d describe it differently. Also, when Kaine resurrects him, we see Kraven’s bare chest pretty well, he’s not bleeding as he obviously would be if his heart was punctured. So, Kraven dies here from direct blunt force. Finally, although I would 100% agree that Shaolin Cowboy is not as strong as Kaine, his TECHNIQUES very much include those of striking critical points including the heart. In fact these are his go-to moves. So, the likelihood of Shaolin Cowboy deciding to strike Kraven in the heart with one of his piercing strikes, and having that kill him, seems better and better.

And here is Venom knocking Kraven out by throwing a body at him.

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First, Venom is stronger than Peter or Shaolin Cowboy, no argument there. BUT, getting knocked out by being hit by a soft human body?!??! The softness of the body severely lowers the intensity of the blow. If Kraven can get knocked out by being hit like this—literally a softball—Shaolin can do something similar, especially given Shaolin’s own super-intense-penetration throws like the drone-destroying button. In fact, it’s almost exactly like when the Cowboy killed those vultures with a soft vulture eyeball, except here Kraven is being knocked out by a soft human body. (Also, not only does Kraven get knocked out by this, he STAYS knocked out for multiple pages.)

This is in addition to when Black Widow knocked him out, etc.

So overall, what we’ve learned here is that while Kraven does really truly have good blunt force durability, he can also very much get knocked out by it, and in fact has been knocked out repeatedly from just such a thing.

Shaolin Monk has, for the record, never been knocked out by blunt force durability. (That one time he healed himself was after being shot in the back by a rifle from like a mile away after he was exhausted from fighting all the zombies.)

Cutting and Piercing Attacks

I don't have anything to say here, I didn't claim Kraven would be able to tank a piercing wound (not that I am saying that you said I did) and I will admit that he cannot, but can Shaolin?

As long as we agree that Shaolin can chop Kraven up with his chainsaw, pierce him with his pistol, and rip his body to pieces with his special cutting martial arts techniques, then I guess we’re good here.

Shaolin Cowboy doesn’t have cutting durability, but he does have blocking, like against the knife dogs. I’m sure if he could block their four knives, he can block Kraven’s one.

Lion's Vest

The gas should be no problem. The scan you showed gave its own solution: Shaolin Cowboy can hold his breath just like Ka-Zar did, with no problem.

Except he can pull a Batman and force Shaolin to breath.

Well, he could try. Except that one, if he gets close enough to kick the Cowboy like that, Kraven will also be in the gas cloud himself. And two, Cowboy can just block the kick, and the Cowboy, as we’ll see below, is way better at blocking than Kraven.

Like Spidey did? I agree actually.

1. This is Spidey without knowledge on the sapper like Shaolin now, so this is a way more accurate example and 2. Lol at Kraven's head snapping back after he gets hit like nothing happened to him.

Eh, Kraven tends to boast about what he’s doing before he does it, and again, these are not the most aim-able rays. I’m pretty confident that the Cowboy can dodge. And if he doesn’t, he can use his Lethal Levitation to float up out of range while it wears off, while attacking with his pistol, which doesn’t require speed.

Second, Spidey’s speed is inherent and static. It just is what it is. While Shaolin Cowboy gets his speed by enhancing himself with chi, which is a renewable and increasable resource.

Sort of like a healing factor or a super power? Cause Kraven shuts down super powers

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No, what Kraven is doing here is using his eye-blasts as a heat source to melt Bobby’s ice, not steal his powers.

And Deadpool who went back in time to face 616 Kraven (who became another timeline because of DP) was also similarly stunned by the stun blast despite his regen

For instance, consider his build-up of chi when he healed himself, or here where he rebuilds his energy after fighting a lot of the zombies, to prepare himself for fighting more zombies. If he gets his speed stolen, he can just further increase his chi flow

Too bad he has to do a little dance he has no strength to do in order to get stamina back.

Deadpool’s healing factor doesn’t have anything to with the way the eye blasts “magnetize” the muscles; there’s nothing to heal there really, it just affects the way the muscle tendons interact. Whereas Cowboy can send his chi in to just build his speed up further and essentially bypass the effect. He does have to do some moves to build up the chi, it’s true, so I won’t disagree that it would be distracting. But less so than on Spidey, Deadpool, and Ka-zar. And again, Lethal Levitation move.

Other Weapons

Wrong-o sir. With his Adamantium knife he can simply parry your iconic chainsaw staff to make it useless from the start. See, a normal knife would be nothing to the chainsaw staff but an Adamantium one will make the chainsaw's own momentum slice itself once it meets the blade. Best part is, Shaolin has no way to know this, so he may try to slice of Kraven's arm while assume Kraven holds a normal knif, but once Kraven parries his attack, his main weapon get busted.

The adamantium knife could cut the chainsaw, yes. And I agree that he won’t know what it’s made of. But, even a normal knife could probably cut through the wood staff when the staff is moving at high speeds. So I think he’ll avoid contact between the knife and the chainsaw staff as a matter of course. And, since he can spin the chainsaw so fast, and is very adept at angling it where towards specific targets, he’ll be able to avoid the knife for a reasonably long time once Kraven starts being obvious and swings at it. Kraven’s main focus will still be on avoiding the saw, which I don’t think he can continue to do for long. Since Kraven’s main fighting style is to just take a hit, rather than dodge or block (not that he NEVER dodges or blocks, but not much, so it’s not his best move and he’s not well-practiced in it), he’ll get cut up eventually.

Kraven's poisons are powerful, no doubt. But, they have to hit.

Which they will.

Well, I disagree. Kraven tends to shoot from cover, when he knows the target isn’t paying attention. That’s how he hit in most of the examples we’ve looked at or that I’ve seen. But Shaolin Cowboy can dodge bullets, so as we’ve seen, so I feel pretty confident that he can dodge blowgun darts while Kraven is highly distracted by the spinning chainsaw. You mentioned below that the Cowboy doesn’t dodge with big flips or anything, but more “with his skill.” I agree. The Cowboy uses, among other styles, Hung Ga kung fu, which happens to be the same style I do. In this style, as with many others, there is an emphasis on making the minimum movement necessary to avoid being hit. Don’t move big to dodge if you can move small. This is what the Cowboy did when avoiding getting shot, and it’s what he’ll do here.

I did think we were sticking to poison darts, which I don't have much concern about him dodging in the middle of battle. If we're also talking poison on all his melee weapons

Pretty sure I only used poisoned darts, unless you are referring to Tigra, but I don't consider that a melee weapon.

then I may want to amp up Shaolin Cowboy's weapons to include his own poisoned shuriken, for example.

Thrown projectiles are nothing to Kraven.

Catching one spear, thrown from a long distance so he has plenty of time to react to it, is not the same as catching multiple throwing stars. But, I was referring to when you said he might have a variety of other melee weapons, all potentially with poison. As long as we’re talking a normal spear, that’s fine, and we can ignore Cowboy’s shuriken.

It will be hard for Kraven to get inside its reach without getting mutilated, and thus hard to make contact with any melee poisons. There are also examples of, for instance, Black Panther staying on the run until the poison ran its course and metabolized out of his bloodstream, which the Cowboy could also do.

BP specifically has an elevated metabolism.

Luckily, that’s exactly what it means to be able to control your chi—you can elevate your metabolism.

Kraven vs Shaolin Cowboy

Speed

To me Shaolin is fast enough to create after images

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Although in combat he does not seem that quick, and yes he is "dodging" bullets but it seems he is more using his skill to make the gunmen miss.

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I agree about how he dodges, see above. I think he’s pretty quick, he’s going around killing tons of guys and zombies in multiple situations, you can’t do that without being too fast for them to stop.

Side note: I find that scans like these are purely for artistic reasons, I don't believe the writers wanted to convey speed there.

I disagree. I think, when in combination with his other obvious speed feats, where he has after images with the “going through the tub,” and the “blocking with the head,” and also his dancing around on heads, his “tons of bullets flying out of a hand-ratcheted rifle,” spinning like a top in the time it takes his sword to fall, leaping up too fast for the eye to follow, shooting 3 guys before they can complete a thumb’s up, double a double-stroke cut through a guy's neck without being able to see it, and cutting a gas-bag guy's head off and sticking it back in the hole before any gas gets out, that it’s easy to read this “kill a bunch of zombies before they hit the ground” as enhanced speed.

Compare that to this, which is much better after image making and is in combat.

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That’s a nice effect. But even though this comic is canon, I tend to see this kind of storytelling as being a little exaggerated in effect. Series like Superior Foes of Spider-man, Squirrel Girl, and honestly even Rocket Raccoon, while also canon, tend to have somewhat of a hyperbolic sense of reality compared to other Marvel comics. If this style of speed blitz was ALL the kind of appearances Kraven had (in the same way that Shaolin Cowboy’s appearances are ALL over the top) then I’d say fine, that's just the way he’s supposed to be. But when he only has this one wacky kind of speed blitz, I take it with a grain of salt. I mean, he obviously is fast, he’s got cheetah speed and can hang with Spidey and all that. But we usually don’t see him being SO fast compared to Spidey that Spidey sees him as after-images. Basically, Shaolin Cowboy’s “running through the zombies as they fall” feat is in the standard visual grammar of a Shaolin Cowboy comic and thus acceptable, while Kraven’s speed blitz is not within his normal visual grammar and is less to be relied on.

Also Kraven is one of the few Spidey rouges that can actually go 1v1 with Spidey and tag him consistently.

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First 3 is an almost full fight which happened in ASM 34, which he lost cause Spidey out stats him and the last one is a random scan from ASM 47

To me it seems as if Kraven has the edge here, I mean Shaolin's most comparable feat is this one but Kraven's still is more impressive when you consider just who he is fighting.

Category Winner: Kraven.

I’ll just point out that one of those scans shows Spidey knocking Kraven out after several punches.

I’d say Shaolin has an edge in speed, although not a lot.

Strength

...

So all in all, I believe that we are at a tie, Shaolin has better fantastical feats while Kraven has better tangible feats.

Category Winner: Tie.

I’m fine with a tie. In addition to his striking power, Shaolin does also have the time he lifted a 2-ton boulder (just as a reminder to the readers that it’s not all striking power).

Nerve Strikes

Shaolin knows basic nerve strikes of course

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Which he can use to heal himself

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While Kraven uses his to make limbs stop working

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Or to disable people completely

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I think Kraven has better showings of offensive use, seeing as how he used his to instantly take out well known characters and disable them but Shaolin does have the defensive edge, but I highly doubt that he will be given time to do his little dance so I think Kraven had the edge.

Category Winner: Kraven.

I definitely disagree here.

First, Cowboy’s nerve strike is not “basic,” it knocks her out. So its effect is as complete as anything Kraven can do.

Second, while Kraven has more examples of using nerve strikes more often in combat, he also has literally 32x the appearances of the Cowboy, so that’s not surprising.

Third, Shaolin Cowboy’s knowledge of what’s behind nerve strikes—that is, chi—is vastly superior. If he knows how to use nerve strikes to knock someone out, to heal himself, to erase someone’s memories, to levitate, and to fight a hell-ghost as a spirit, he certainly knows all about any kind of nerve strike that Kraven is going to try out on him. He’ll recognize the incoming strike and block or dodge, or even potentially use his internal chi to negate the effect.

And, he can potentially tap Kraven on the forehead and erase his memory of why he’s even there fighting.

Kraven’s nerve punch is a classic, and useful part of his tactics. But against Shaolin, Kraven’s nerve punch is going to look like a Nervous Nelly.

Shaolin Cowboy has the clear edge on offensive and defensive uses of chi strikes.

Durability

Not going to get too much into this since I provided a whole section for Kraven, and I do not think Shaolin is that durable. I mean here his face is pounded by a girl whose only feat is cutting people with hands

Shaolin Cowboy does in fact get his face all bloody and punched by Shelley—who is controlled by King Crab and thus has all of King Crab’s feats and skills. (Including the fact that each of her toes has mastered the Iron Palm technique!) So he gets pounded again and again in the face by someone who can cut a skull in half with her hand, by someone who on his own was able to break rocks in half, and all that happens to Shaolin Cowboy is his face gets bloody. Then he gets up and smacks Crab off and wins. The end result of taking all those hits, which all have extreme striking power—is just a bloody face. It’s a showing that for him, getting a bit bloody and bruised doesn’t mean anything, it’s just a surface kind of injury.

So this is actually way better than the many times Kraven gets punched 3 or 4 times by Spidey, or Spider-woman, or Black Widow, and is knocked out.

Also, the Cowboy partly lets himself take these hits, because he feels bad that he ate all of King Crab’s relatives, and he knows Shelley is being mind-controlled and doesn’t want to hurt her.

He also gets dazed when this bag full of stuff hits his head.

This is because his durability isn’t innate, it’s part of his chi usage (or at least this is how I interpret it). When he gets hit on the head here, it hurts because he’s not paying attention, so his chi isn’t up. But when he gets knocked by Hog Kong across the block, he’s basically fine—because he is paying attention, and his chi is up. Same with when he gets punched by Shelley—he looks bloody, but he’s actually fine, because he’s prepared.

Let’s also remember that his durability, strength, and especially endurance is such that he was able to fight an enemy army for six years and phsyically claw his way up through the earth from their underground palace.

Overall I would say Kraven gets this category easily, I mean Shaolin's best showing for this category is probably this one but it just does not compare to eating a blast that knocked over the Statue of Liberty or remaining standing after getting hit by a blow that staggered Hulk (he did fall but he wobbled for a while).

Category Winner: Kraven.

I’d say it’s a tie, or maybe a slight edge to Shaolin Cowboy, given that we know that Kraven is ultimately able to be knocked out by multiple super-strength-punches, and that has never happened to Shaolin Cowboy, even when he takes numerous blows with super-striking-power continuously right in the face.

As I pointed out above, the Hulk example doesn’t count since it’s from his healing factor era, and the Statue of Liberty explosion not only didn’t affect Rocket either, but explosions usually don’t seem to do much to anyone in comics.

Weapons:

The last one I will cover is weapons and I have nothing really to say here since both have pretty normal gear except for the chainsaw staff and the, Adamantium and the poisons. While I admit that the chainsaw blade is the most destructive weapon on here, I do think that Adamantium counters it while Kraven's various poisons will give him the edge, proving an easy way to take Shaolin out if he can land a hit or giving him a moment of rest using his sapper.

Category Winner: Kraven.

Shaolin Cowboy’s reach, and his speed with the chainsaws, gives him the advantage for sure. I don’t think Kraven is going to hit the saw with the knife, and even if he did, even having part of the staff is still better than the knife, in terms of reach, by a long shot.

(Your) Overall

It is Kraven with every advantage in the game, even if I went softer and made strength tie and gave you speed, he would still have more advantages in terms of durability and weapons.

Well, I see things a little differently, with Shaolin Cowboy having a slight speed edge, a slight durability edge, and a gear edge, and with a tie in strength.

However, there are three categories that are missing here, agility, accuracy, and the glaringly important category of skill, and there especially, Shaolin Cowboy cleans up and wins the fight.

So let's add...Agility

In terms of jumping around, they're pretty even. Kraven can make some pretty big jumps, and so can Cowboy. I’ll call that a tie.

But there's more fine dexterity to be considered, like Cowboy's ability to dance on punji sticks. It's about a mastery in moving your body around in space.

In particular, the Cowboy’s Lethal Levitation move does allow him some extra maneuverability or unusual angles of attack, or some breathing room if by chance he does get tagged by poison, a nerve strike, or a speed sapping ray.

Overall, Kraven is probably behind in terms of maneuverability.

Accuracy

Kraven is certainly a good shot, but as I’ve mentioned, most of his shots are against unsuspecting targets. Up close, against a knowing target, he’s not as good, as we see when he misses a dehydrated Captain America, who’s still recovering from poison, from only a few feet away. I’ll note that Captain America uses the “only move as much as you need to” style of dodging that Shaolin Cowboy also uses. I’m not saying Kraven can’t shoot up close at all, but that’s not his area of expertise.

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Shaolin Cowboy’s accuracy with the button, shooting the bird crap, the soda can thrown on the finger behind his back, and the vulture eyeballs, are better. If anybody does shoot someone at range, it'll be the Cowboy.

And finally, Skill

Shaolin Cowboy’s superior skill can be seen in many ways:

His consistent reference to arcane techniques, and his use of these techniques to achieve crazy effects.

His ability to wield crazy weapons like dogs with knives for legs as effective weapons.

His ability to successfully fight such giant numbers of fodder without significant injury.

His reputation, with the Shaolin Temple believing he is a great example of skill, and his fights against the very skilled King Crab and Hog Kong.

His ability to do crazy things like kick some chairs and have them all stack up.

His ability to regularly block attacks. This I’d like to focus on a second. We’ve seen Cowboy block multiple, very fast attacks on multiple occasions (again, knife-dogs, King Crab), including guns at close range with his minimal movement technique. This is part of his regular fighting style—if someone’s striking, then block it. Whereas Kraven’s normal style is to try to tank it. (So many, many examples that we've seen, and really not cherry-picked, this is just how he fights...one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven , twelve, thirteen--[OK that one isn't tanking, it's just not dodging]). When he’s fighting Spidey or anyone else, he almost always just takes the hit like a punch-drunk boxer. And, eventually, he falls down.

(This is also reflected when he gets tagged by stuff like Venom’s webs; he doesn’t do a lot of dodging.)

I’m not saying Kraven is incapable of blocking, or has never blocked anything, or that he can’t dodge out of the way of things at all. But 9 times out of 10, he just takes it and leans on his durability.

And this will not work against the Cowboy because (1) Kraven can get knocked out anyway, just like he has many times before, and especially (2) because of the Cowboy’s cutting and piercing attacks, which are my final example of his extremely high skill. Again, he can pierce the human body with his strikes, punching out hearts, cutting bodies in half, JUST WITH HIS HANDS (a little survey: one, two, three, four)

When Kraven goes to punch Cowboy, Cowboy will block it. When Cowboy strikes at Kraven, Kraven will assume he can suck it up, and will learn too late that his heart has been stopped (like against Kaine), or it has been knocked clean out through his back, or his guts are now open.

Now, Kraven is by no means unskilled. His record against Spider-man is testament to his ability to use his skill to overcome Spider-man’s greater stats. His knowledge of nerve punches is evidence of his skill. He is most definitely an extremely skilled hunter—but his skill there largely comes from traps, and preparedness, which have no place in this fight. Most (not all, but most) of his opponents, like Spidey, Venom, Kaine, and Tigra, aren’t that skilled, so Kraven can coast on what he knows. In addition, as he says, he takes advantage of their impulsivity, another characteristic all those characters have, but the Cowboy doesn’t. Kraven just doesn’t have the specific hand to hand skill feats to back up an argument that he’s near Cowboy’s level. There is no doubt that the Cowboy’s skill level is way deeper and way more refined.

This is not a fight that is going to be won by strength or durability, they’re too close in that. It’s going to be won by a greater mastery of melee and hand to hand technique.

Cowboy will use his skill to overwhelm Kraven and take him down, piece by piece.

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED HERE OVER THIS PAST COUPLE WEEKS?

Kraven tends to take hits rather than block or dodge, and gets knocked out by blunt force reasonably often despite his durability, and Shaolin Cowboy can capitalize on that.

Shaolin Cowboy can take Kraven’s punches and is currently undefeated.

Shaolin Cowboy has clearly better pure skill feats.

Shaolin Cowboy’s weapons can tear Kraven up, as can his hand techniques, and there’s not much Kraven can do about that.

Shaolin Cowboy has random options like the Lethal Levitation that can help him out if he’s in a tight spot.

Shaolin Cowboy has the skill, speed, and awareness to wade through tons of opponents both offensively and defensively, which will prepare him for Kraven’s far fewer attacks per second.

Shaolin Cowboy has superhuman perception (like when he sensed a garbage bag falling at him from behind, or he sensed bird poop falling at him from behind), which will help him avoid surprise tactics from Kraven, like from the eye blasts.

Shaolin Cowboy has faced demons, monsters, animals, giant animals, giant car-covered animals, kung fu giant animals, and mind-controlling kung fu crabs, all of which have prepared him well to defeat Kraven the Hunter i a battle royale. The Shaolin Cowboy may come out bloody and bruised, but he will come out victorious!

The Battle: How Kraven Wins (you think)

I have covered the why, but here I will cover the how which is pretty basic. Kraven only needs to land one hit with either a poison dart or a speed sapper, he doesn't even need to land an immobilizing hit, just one that will slow/weaken Shaolin down. If he does that he wins, game over. Why? Because without the speed or strength to do anything Kraven will have seconds to butcher Shaolin with his knife, which is more than enough time to finish the battle.

So basically I envision it going something like this:

  1. Shaolin uses his chainsaw staff to swing at Kraven, Kraven narrowly dodges the first swing and parries the next using his Adamantium blade which breaks the saws.
  2. Shaolin will use his now chainsaw spear to keep Kraven at a distance while he uses his shurikens and revolver to try to tag him, but Kraven retaliates with his own poison darts. Neither can dodge and hit the mark at the same time to they both decide to ditch range and go mono a mano, their specialties.
  3. Kraven then leaps towards Shaolin and destroys his chainsaw spear completely with his blade again, but Shaolin expects that and uses the opportunity to his Kraven with numerous strikes as he lands. Krvaen reels but recovers.
  4. Kraven then pounces at Shaolin with his blade, the two then start to exchange hits, blow for blow, stat for stat, the battle rages but no victor comes fourth. That is until Kraven sees his perfect opportunity to fire his speed sapper and instantly crumbles to the floor, he senses the danger of the situation so he tries to use his chi techniques on himself but Kraven catches on quickly and again with his Adamantium, slices down on the monk delivering a deliberating blow.
  5. Finally Kraven picks up the Monk by the throat and finishes the battle.

This is not my strategy or anything like that, it is just a fun way I thought the battle would go.

Here’s how I see the fight.

Shaolin Cowboy spins his saws around, and Kraven tries to spike them but misses due to the Cowboy’s greater skill and speed. The Cowboy gets some decent gnarly chopped-up wounds in Kraven before Kraven finally moves inside the chainsaw arc.

The blowgun darts and shuriken are unused, or miss, as you say.

They go hand to hand. They first land normal blows, and realize each other’s striking power and durability.

Shaolin Cowboy then ups his usage of blocking, and wards off most of Kraven’s attacks, including any attempted nerve strikes, while starting to use his own cutting and piercing blows, and his own nerve strikes or chi-memory erasers. Kraven, being the less-practiced and less-skilled blocker, starts to get taken down as he normally does when he absorbs too many punches, except now he’s also losing body parts and organs.

In desperation, Kraven goes for the vest, but Shaolin Cowboy easily tilts his body to the side to let the beams harmlessly pass by, and finishes Kraven off with a piercing strike to the throat, killing him. Unless he decides to be merciful, and just gives him some chi amnesia.

I’m sure there are some battles out of 10 where Kraven does manage to tag him with the speed-stealer. In that alternative, Shaolin Cowboy uses his chi to enhance his metabolism and bring himself up to normal speed again. This may take a few seconds, so he may make some big jumps to avoid being hit, or even more effectively, use his Lethal Levitation to float up out of reach until he’s ready to come down. He may well at this point decide to go with a ranged improvised weapon, unexpectedly piercing Kraven’s skull with a pebble flicked through an eye socket.

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Looking forward to your conclusion!

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#15 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

The formatting became a bit odd, so I will switch things up to make it simpler.

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Counters: Kraven's Stats (Strength, Speed and Durability)

I don’t get the “struggling to stay upright” from that at all. He’s swinging around soon after.

Look at DD's feet, when he is kicked he leaves the ground and in the panel after he isn't vertical as his body is tilted to one side, his right foot is also off the ground.

The writer makes it clear that it’s canon in the interview, that’s fine I just wanted to check given the art style which looked more kid-oriented.

Agreed. And it was made for kids and older audiences alike.

It's more a point of, how formidable a fighter are they, and what are they capable of? For instance, are they capable of avoiding serious wounds while being attacked so constantly for so long from all sides? If so, this says something about their ability to defend against attacks from a single attacker. Shaolin Cowboy’s ability to engage in all these mass-fodder fights shows his defensive skills and offensive skills are extremely efficient and effective.

I disagree, I believe defending attacks from one opponent of similar speed and skill is just as impressive as fighting literal fodder. But as I have already showed, Kraven can defend against multiple fodder either way so he clearly is not lacking in defensive ability.

We may just differ in terms then. I would define tanking as the ability to take a blow with little effect, being able to brave your way through it, and no-selling as having no effect at all. Kraven clearly feels that hit. To me, that’s not tanking, that’s barely dealing with.

Yes, it is a difference in terms as "barely dealing with" isn't a phrase I use often in CV.

No, it’s a difference in power. We can really get into the weeds of Cyclops’s blasts if you want, since this is an area of specialty for me, but in the one he is controlling his blast so it is extremely weak, and only blasts a molecule’s thickness off a wall.

No, a difference in power would be comparing this scan where Scott pushes Hulk back using max power to this scan where he uses a similar sized blast to cut grass. Same size, different levels of output, meanwhile in the scans you have compared, you show him vaporizing one molecule of a wall by choice and him vaporizing a large chunk of land. Both are the same level of power, he just used a smaller beam in the molecule one.

Here’s another example of him cutting a cake, if you’d rather have another example of it at a weak level. Or here’s an example of him pushing a group of people backwards, or slamming a door without destroying it, and here’s an example of him knocking some chunks of ice off Angel’s wings without hurting him. Cyclops’ ability to control the power of his blasts is not a question.

Those would be better examples of weaker blasts, but as I have said Cyclops was clearly not using blasts that weak.

Cyclops’ ability to control the power

Yes, and I never questioned it. Everyone who reads comics knows what holding back is, because nearly every hero does it to an extent.

Those are classic, and of decent power (I don’t think anyone thinks that one scene was intended to prove that Cyclops’ blast is literally more powerful than Thor’s grip, because it is definitely not)—

So we know that 1. classic Scott is able to harm literal tanks. 2. Kraven just speared Angel out of the air. So from that I would say that the blast Kraven took was definitely a powerful one.

but again I’d say they are largely like his modern-day normal power. His modern day massive power is way, way more powerful.

Which matters why?

It is also important to understand that while he may have been worried about Angel in the Kraven fight, the super-self-controlled Scott would not just lash out. He spent his whole life being worried about accidentally killing someone. He would not go all out on anyone without knowing that they could take it.

Never said he did. His tank level/boulder breaking blasts were obviously not used but he also obviously did not use his thug level blats

The effects of energy blasts in comics are always a little random anyway. Here’s Cyclops himself, who is not energy resistant to anything except his and his brother Havok’s exact energy signatures, getting blasted by Blastaar “The Living Bomb-Burst.”

Blastaar’s shots are enormously powerful, and he said multiple times that he wanted to kill the heroes here, so he was most definitely not holding back against Cyclops. Cyke gets blasted full-on, and a page later he’s up and about like nothing happened.

So PIS happens, what's new?

So, while I have no doubt that Kraven has solid blunt force durability as I’ve already agreed, it is not particularly amazing that Kraven would walk away from getting hit by an old-school Cyclops blast.

Well, as I have showed classic Scott has the potential for great power, and as your own scans show even in his earliest days he can shatter mini icebergs, so I consider Kraven's feat to be quite impressive.

Not showing them in that scene doesn't mean he wouldn’t show them in others.

That scene was basically the whole fight.

Besides, how many different powers does Spider-man have? Just wall-crawling and spider-sense beyond the strength and speed that Kraven already uses in a fight.

Spidey's speed far surpasses Kraven's and as far as the villains know, his web slinging is also a power he has.

Kraven already showed the wall-crawling.

No, he has only shown his insanity. As you can clearly see that when he "wall crawls" he is only climbing regularly, in fact you can see him hold the side of the building, which is why his fingers arc slightly and his feet are dangling unlike how Spidey climbs.

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It’s not Kraven’s credibility that matters, it was Peter who said that Kraven was mimicking his powers.

Peter, who was no where near the fight and did not see what actually went down. He has no credability as a witness and is working with pure assumptions, and as I have shown in the actual fight Kraven displays none of Spider-Man's abilities.

Also, Kraven clearly put quite a bit of effort into this scheme, including putting himself through a real gauntlet of potion stuff. I am quite sure that going to the ends of the earth to get the exact kind of potions he needed for this particular hunt would be very in character for him. That’s really the entire point of this arc—he wanted to beat Spider-man, so he whipped up some extra-special herbs to make himself the new spider. This isn’t beyond his ability either; since his other potion gave him the powers of other existing animals like a cheetah and gorilla, getting the powers of a spider fits perfectly into that pattern. As to whether he made the potion himself or got it from another shaman, the story doesn’t say, but obviously it did something, he’s not drinking it for no reason. He thinks it will help him win. This did drive him insane, by putting him in a spider mindset, but it also clearly amped him up. Even if you disagree that it gave him spider-powers specifically, it obviously pushed him past his normal points, and at a very minimum acted as a sort of adrenaline that would let him ignore pain through madness and giving in to the intensity of the moment and to his belief that he was now the spider.

Yes, I agree that Kraven did anything to make himself stronger, but did it actually work? No, we have no evidence to show that he was amped, the only thing that changed was his tactics and state of mind.

My only point here is that Kraven can’t just ignore his blows and stand there and smile like he did in that one single instance in Kraven’s Last Hunt. I’m not at all arguing that Kraven is weak. Just that he is susceptible to Spidey’s blows, to being knocked back, to feeling some pain from all the “uhhhhhhs” he tends to say when he gets hit, and ultimately to being knocked out upon enough blows.

Take a look at the scan

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Where is the "uhhhhhhs" you speak of? As to the pain, does this man looked pained? To me he is shocked more than anything.

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I’m glad you agree that multiple blows do affect him.

Which is pretty obvious tbh. I never claimed that even one hit doesn't affect him as he clearly bleeds in my own scan.

For example, here’s one of the “uhhhhhhs.” Kraven talking here while getting knocked back is nothing unusual. Comics letterers have to find a place to put in the text somewhere, and there’s not always space where you want. One of my favorite panels is from X-men, where two guys are talking, then one flies away and while clearly hundreds of feet in the air and outside of the house they were in, is still responding to the other guy. Anyway, point here is that Kraven gets knocked back, and feels the punch.

Perhaps he felt it, but you cropped off an important panel which I brought you your attention in the Lion's Vest category.

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As you can see, in the very next panel it is as if nothing happened to him, in fact I would argue that him selling the punch is just him tricking Spidey so he can tag him with his laser nipples, a common tactic for Kraven.

I figured you’d bring up the Hulk; I didn’t want to fake the context by cutting it out. First, c’mon, we all know Spider-man in any normal situation can’t stagger the Hulk. Bring this up in any Spider-man/Hulk battle debate and it would obviously get laughed out of the thread.

The opinions of battle forum nerds mean nothing to the writers who very clearly think that Spidey can stagger the Hulk since they brought it up twice. Do I think SPidey can stagger the Hulk? No. But do I think that the writers intended to portray Kraven taking a hit that staggered the Hulk? Undoubtedly.

Here, Spidey says that Hulk’s strength takes a while to get to its fullest, and the Hulk of that era was also often shown to be much weaker than he is today.

Base Hulk is still impressively durable.

For instance, here he is unable to break out of a prison, which (while designed specifically to hold him) is clearly just a metal door maybe a couple feet thick held by a big piston. He can’t break out after pounding all night long.

This is before Hulk got his established power level. This was when he was Marvel's Mr. Hyde and not their raging monster, you can clearly tell from the art work. This is the Hulk that Spidey staggered

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A Hulk that no sells his own hit. Not that circus freak Hulk.

Another “Uhhh,” and another example of Kraven not standing there smiling from a punch. I appreciate you wanting to give these extra attention.

Yes, he did say "Uhhh" here but he was also smiling the entire time, well not sure if I would call it a smile but his "grinning" expression doesn't change

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Is he? Not that you’ve shown.

I showed him tanking a hit from the Hulk and a massive explosion.

There were the “super-healing factor” days, but those are gone now that he’s been resurrected by Kaine. More on that later, but I would say he seems about the same—solid but not insurmountable blunt force durability.

Nope, wrong. I thought like you did before Jashro recently cleared up dates, see Kaine killed and resurrected Kraven in Scarlet Spider #23 which came out 2013, but in 2014 Squirel Girl said this

Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #1
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #1

Black Panther is a peak human, not made of rock. It’s not surprising at all that someone should be able to knock him backwards with a connected punch.

He is enhanced by drugs and herbs, he is a superhuman.

First, this isn’t in the dark, that one dark panel is just an example of what DD’s radar sense looks like to him.

They were thrown into a pit.

Second, I’d never say Ka-Zar is a weakling. But it’s one thing to make the fully-human DD reel, another to make Kraven reel. If your point is that Kraven has the same blunt force durability as Daredevil and Black Panther, that’s cool with me.

Okay, then why are you trying to downplay Kraven with these scans? You showed Kraven getting hit by a guy who is much stronger than most of Marvel's street levels and called KaZar fully human as if to make him seem as if he is as strong as a human, which he is not. Now I am not saying that KaZar isn't human, your staement isn't wrong, it is just misleading to the many who do not know KaZar.

Again, this is obviously kind of silly if we take it to mean that the fully-human (he doesn’t even have the super soldier serum his wife has) Ka-Zar has the ability to physically force Skaar’s neck muscles around against Skaar’s will. What we see here is Skaar letting him punch him, as Skaar says. Skaar rolls with the punch, probably to keep Ka-Zar from breaking his hand. Punching the spittle out? If it was blood it would be one thing. Spittle? Eh, he just had some spit in his mouth and it flew out upon contact when his cheeks flapped a bit with the punch. The spittle isn't really a sign of anything amazing.

Forcing spit out means KaZar is forcing Skaar's mouth open, which does not sound that impressive but when you consider how beastly Skaar is, you begin to realize that doing something as drawing out spittle is impressive.

Once more, the point is that Kraven doesn’t just stand there smiling, he feels the hit, grunts and gets knocked back, to the degree (in many of these scenes) that he is slightly taken off-beat and can’t just continue what he was doing.

Except he does remain standing in your first BP scan (and he isn't smiling because he isn't insane anymore) and your second BP scan is quite misleading, BP didn't just hit Kraven he dive bombed from a roof a a building (since Kraven was on a lower building) and hit Kraven with the full force of his body

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And again, Kraven remained standing after Vulture hit him and may I remind you that Vulture can rattle things as big as a cargo copter. He also kept his grinning expression.

Let me add just one more of him reeling from a punch, this time from Venom (who granted is stronger than Peter, but not so much that Kraven could no-sell a punch from Pete but have to reel like this from Venom).

Yeah, Venom is that much stronger. Especially when he is using his whole body weight against Kraven when Spidey didn't.

To sum up here, I never said these other punches that we just looked at were LOW showings—I think they’re NORMAL showings for him, and show good blunt force durability.

Okay good.

They are just not the same as the HIGH OUTLIER of him smiling at the punch in Kraven’s Last Hunt. In other words, if we look at, say, 20 punches Kraven has taken from reasonable hitters, almost all of them (as I’ve shown) are going to knock him back, make him go “UHHHHH,” etc.

As I have explained 0 of your examples show a punch making him reel. What you did show is him being slightly off-balanced, him taking attacks from people with strength above Spidey and him taking multiple attacks or attacks that use the entire body weight of an attacker. This is closest thing you have shown for a punch that knocks him back

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But in reality we see that he isn't hurt at all as he recovers instantly and continues to speak.

So when you see one where he just stands there and smiles, that is a high outlier that does not fit the pattern of the rest, and can be discarded.

Yeah, most of your scans show him taking the attacks while standing, rarely showing him changing his expression. As for the smile part, he isn't insane anymore so punches don't make him happy.

Especially when the context of that story arc makes it clear that he’s blitzed out of his mind on spider-juice and

No. What is clear is that he is insane and will go through any lengths to beat Spidey, but as we all saw he only beat Spidey by drugging him as he would still lose CQC since he never got amped.

at a minimum feeling no pain.

Which you made up.

I’d guess that he manages to cut his way out before the compacter completes its process, or perhaps uses that adamantium knife to cut apart the workings of the compacter soon after they start so they don’t hurt him.

Or it didn't hurt him. The guy took an attack that staggered the Hulk and an attack with the force of a wrecking ball (that can rattle helicopters and make them fall), this is normal for Kraven.

First, “massive blasts” often end up doing nothing to characters, they’re more random than energy blasts. Here’s the fully human Dick Grayson surviving three enormous blasts,

This is blatantly ignoring feats. Look at Dick run away from the blasts

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The next blast isn't even close to him.

and here’s the fully-human Red Dagger, and one of Ms. Marvel’s fully-human friends dressed in her costume, doing the same (Red Dagger being just a winded and nauseous even after being so close, and being knocked so far in the air; he comes back soon after and is fine).

Ms. Marvel is a cartoony comic, not sure if you noticed this buy explosions don't just send you flying, they incinerate you.

So, in comics pretty much anyone can survive a massive blast.

So you are basing your argument in one very clear PIS showing? Very well then.

Second, as we can see in the scan, Rocket is in the upper left corner shielding himself behind something, and Kraven is in the lower right corner doing the same. Presumably they are about equally shielded and distant, given the intentional artistic symmetry in the image. So, if Rocket survived, then it’s not shocking that Kraven did too. Seems like they were far enough and shielded enough to be fine.

1. That shield was just his back

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2. Did you forget the part where the Statue of Liberty fell on him and not Rocket?

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Here’s Kraven after being knocked out off-panel by a modified Doom-bot, presumably by his claw-arms.

And I presume that Galactus punched him full force. Where? the evidence? there is none, we can only presume.

Here, in one of the scans you supplied, Spider-man knocks him out after multiple blows. I want to be clear, I’m not saying Kraven is weak here, just that Kraven was knocked out by three punches.

Uh, no. You skipped a lot of the fight, c'mon you saw that Kraven took more than 3 hits, did you not?

Here, Spider-man again knocks him out with one punch to the stomach.

Read. Spidey hit him with so much force that he busted his own hand.

Here, Jessica Drew (who is considered to be slightly weaker than Peter, more of a 7-tonner) kicks him, punches him, they both miss, and then she knocks him out with a combination punch/venom blast. Three hits including one with energy to knock him out.

Again, you show these scans but fail to explain everything so it looks unimpressive, that hit is enough to weaken the Thing and kill a rhino.

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It can also one shot a Skrull casually.

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Here, Kaine (who granted is stronger than Pete) kills Kraven with one blow to the heart.

Yeah, he used a pressure point. Sternum's point.

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This is interesting for two reasons. One, this was when Kraven had a massive healing factor, which he does NOT have anymore. After Kaine resurrects him, the curse is over and Kraven is back to normal.

Again, misinformation. I already showed him having the immortality after that issue

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So Shaolin doesn’t even have to do this level of damage to Kraven to kill him.

Well, all of the Rocket feats and classic scans still stand regardless, not that it matters since he is still immortal.

Two, a lot of people interpret this scene as Kaine using his spike to penetrate Kraven’s heart, but I don’t think that’s what happens. Kaine very specifically says “the IMPACT stops his heart”—not a spike, not penetration. If he spiked his heart, he’d describe it differently. Also, when Kaine resurrects him, we see Kraven’s bare chest pretty well, he’s not bleeding as he obviously would be if his heart was punctured.

This wasn't needed, I never claimed nor will ever claim that an invisible spike was used.

So, Kraven dies here from direct blunt force. Finally, although I would 100% agree that Shaolin Cowboy is not as strong as Kaine, his TECHNIQUES very much include those of striking critical points including the heart. In fact these are his go-to moves. So, the likelihood of Shaolin Cowboy deciding to strike Kraven in the heart with one of his piercing strikes, and having that kill him, seems better and better.

That's good for Shaolin that he would decide to do that, not like it matters though since Kaine only pulled that off as he massively out-stats Kraven while Shaolin holds no stat advantages over him.

First, Venom is stronger than Peter or Shaolin Cowboy, no argument there. BUT, getting knocked out by being hit by a soft human body?!??! The softness of the body severely lowers the intensity of the blow. If Kraven can get knocked out by being hit like this—literally a softball—Shaolin can do something similar, especially given Shaolin’s own super-intense-penetration throws like the drone-destroying button. In fact, it’s almost exactly like when the Cowboy killed those vultures with a soft vulture eyeball, except here Kraven is being knocked out by a soft human body. (Also, not only does Kraven get knocked out by this, he STAYS knocked out for multiple pages.)

Do you know how strong Venom is? Cause a SOFT HUMAN BODY!?!?!?!? Doesn't really change the fact that he is so much stronger than Shaolin that it isn't even funny. So I don't understand why you are trying to compare the two.

This is in addition to when Black Widow knocked him out, etc.

You know, the scan that you said was Widow using a pressure point? Also etc what? You showed no other scans like that unless Shaolin is as strong as Spidey who had to bust his hand to OHKO Kraven.

So overall, what we’ve learned here is that while Kraven does really truly have good blunt force durability, he can also very much get knocked out by it, and in fact has been knocked out repeatedly from just such a thing.

Who claimed Kraven couldn't be knocked out by blunt force? Only thing I claimed and proved is that it he can tank punches from Spidey level guys.

Shaolin Monk has, for the record, never been knocked out by blunt force durability. (That one time he healed himself was after being shot in the back by a rifle from like a mile away after he was exhausted from fighting all the zombies.)

Doesn't mater, unless you will go the NLF route, it means nothing since he hasn't tanked anything impressive either.

As long as we agree that Shaolin can chop Kraven up with his chainsaw, pierce him with his pistol, and rip his body to pieces with his special cutting martial arts techniques, then I guess we’re good here.

Then we aren't cause there is no way that Kraven will be tagged by that chainsaw.

Shaolin Cowboy doesn’t have cutting durability, but he does have blocking, like against the knife dogs. I’m sure if he could block their four knives, he can block Kraven’s one.

Call me crazy, but I only see three knives and I don't seem him blocking anything

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As you can see I numbered the knives and showed the distance between him and the blades to show that he isn't blocking anything.

Counters: Kraven's Weapons

Well, he could try. Except that one, if he gets close enough to kick the Cowboy like that, Kraven will also be in the gas cloud himself.

No, his vapor is very small so he would remain unaffected.

And two, Cowboy can just block the kick, and the Cowboy, as we’ll see below, is way better at blocking than Kraven.

He won't block the kick while holding his breath. At least not completely.

Eh, Kraven tends to boast about what he’s doing before he does it, and again, these are not the most aim-able rays. I’m pretty confident that the Cowboy can dodge.

Modern day Kraven no longer does that and there is no way Shaolin can dodge what Spidey didn't.

And if he doesn’t, he can use his Lethal Levitation to float up out of range while it wears off, while attacking with his pistol, which doesn’t require speed.

Yeah, he cannot move efficiently while in this state. Also, Kraven would just shoot him wit a poison dart either way.

No, what Kraven is doing here is using his eye-blasts as a heat source to melt Bobby’s ice,

It was literally stated that he shocked Bobby's nervous system. So no, he did not use heat.

not steal his powers.

Not sure where you even got the idea that Kraven stole the powers, I certainly never said that he did.

"Cause Kraven shuts down super powers"

Deadpool’s healing factor doesn’t have anything to with the way the eye blasts “magnetize” the muscles; there’s nothing to heal there really, it just affects the way the muscle tendons interact.

Bingo, so how will Shaolin heal himself?

Whereas Cowboy can send his chi in to just build his speed up further and essentially bypass the effect. He does have to do some moves to build up the chi, it’s true, so I won’t disagree that it would be distracting.

"Distracting" Norman Osborne was distracting, this move gives him free seconds to kill Shaolin off with no resistance.

But less so than on Spidey, Deadpool, and Ka-zar.

Based on what?

And again, Lethal Levitation move.

Which is still a movement and leaves him open to being darted or speared.

The adamantium knife could cut the chainsaw, yes. And I agree that he won’t know what it’s made of. But, even a normal knife could probably cut through the wood staff when the staff is moving at high speeds. So I think he’ll avoid contact between the knife and the chainsaw staff as a matter of course. And, since he can spin the chainsaw so fast, and is very adept at angling it where towards specific targets, he’ll be able to avoid the knife for a reasonably long time once Kraven starts being obvious and swings at it.

Yeah Kraven won't aim for the staff nor will he actively aim for anything, he will only parry the head of the chainsaw once it draws near wen it will be impossible for Shaolin to change its direction.

Kraven’s main focus will still be on avoiding the saw, which I don’t think he can continue to do for long.

Which is why I said he parries it.

Since Kraven’s main fighting style is to just take a hit, rather than dodge or block (not that he NEVER dodges or blocks, but not much, so it’s not his best move and he’s not well-practiced in it), he’ll get cut up eventually.

Hmm, odd that you show this scan now that it proves your point but not earlier when you tried to argue how PIS it was to for Kraven to take a hit from Spidey and remain standing.

Well, I disagree. Kraven tends to shoot from cover, when he knows the target isn’t paying attention. That’s how he hit in most of the examples we’ve looked at or that I’ve seen.

I haven't even got to Kraven's accuracy and that is already wrong since we seem him using darts out in the open. And Widow and DD knew Kraven was there.

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But Shaolin Cowboy can dodge bullets,

Widow has a feat really similar to Shaolin's and it was during her classic days.

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so as we’ve seen, so I feel pretty confident that he can dodge blowgun darts while Kraven is highly distracted by the spinning chainsaw.

The chainsaw you admitted he can one shot? I don't buy it.

You mentioned below that the Cowboy doesn’t dodge with big flips or anything, but more “with his skill.” I agree. The Cowboy uses, among other styles, Hung Ga kung fu, which happens to be the same style I do. In this style, as with many others, there is an emphasis on making the minimum movement necessary to avoid being hit. Don’t move big to dodge if you can move small. This is what the Cowboy did when avoiding getting shot, and it’s what he’ll do here.

Which won't work, we have already seen Kraven tag Agent Venom with spears, Agent Venom should be as fast if not faster than Shaolin.

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And before you say it was because AV was poisoned, stop yourself and ask how he got poisoned in the first place.

As long as we’re talking a normal spear, that’s fine, and we can ignore Cowboy’s shuriken.

Very well.

Luckily, that’s exactly what it means to be able to control your chi—you can elevate your metabolism.

Too bad you get KO'd instantly cause chi manipulation it isn't passive.

Kraven vs Shaolin Cowboy

Speed

I disagree. I think, when in combination with his other obvious speed feats, where he has after images with the “going through the tub,” and the “blocking with the head,” and also his dancing around on heads, his “tons of bullets flying out of a hand-ratcheted rifle,” spinning like a top in the time it takes his sword to fall, leaping up too fast for the eye to follow, shooting 3 guys before they can complete a thumb’s up, double a double-stroke cut through a guy's neck without being able to see it, and cutting a gas-bag guy's head off and sticking it back in the hole before any gas gets out, that it’s easy to read this “kill a bunch of zombies before they hit the ground” as enhanced speed.

Yeah, none of those feats are as impressive. The sword one is particularly misleading as he tosses the sword which buys him more time. Though, I am not sure if you know how impressive a feat like that would be, so to put it to perspective it takes a raindrop 1 second to fall 9 meters (which is almost 30 feet, much taller than any human or zombie) so in less than a second Shaolin supposedly takes out 12 zombies? That does not match up with any of his other feats. And if you are confused as to why I used a rain drop, it is because even the blood has no time to fall.

That’s a nice effect. But even though this comic is canon, I tend to see this kind of storytelling as being a little exaggerated in effect. Series like Superior Foes of Spider-man, Squirrel Girl, and honestly even Rocket Raccoon, while also canon, tend to have somewhat of a hyperbolic sense of reality compared to other Marvel comics.

You're telling me that some of Kraven's feats are cartoony when you are the one who has a guy whose comic is ultra graphic with over the top action such as fighting a crab and making the crab land in a cooking pot hundreds of feat away? Yeah, I don't think you can call my scans hyperbolic to be honest, and that isn't even mentioning how you use book feats which is the medium with the most hyperbole.

If this style of speed blitz was ALL the kind of appearances Kraven had (in the same way that Shaolin Cowboy’s appearances are ALL over the top) then I’d say fine, that's just the way he’s supposed to be. But when he only has this one wacky kind of speed blitz, I take it with a grain of salt. I mean, he obviously is fast, he’s got cheetah speed and can hang with Spidey and all that. But we usually don’t see him being SO fast compared to Spidey that Spidey sees him as after-images.

1. Kraven is fighting a young Spidey. 2. He does have other feats like this, and some even more impressive like when he was FTE to Agent Venom (who at this point had already recovered from the poison)

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Basically, Shaolin Cowboy’s “running through the zombies as they fall” feat is in the standard visual grammar of a Shaolin Cowboy comic and thus acceptable,

Basically Shaolin's feat of zombie killing is an artistic way to show gore which undermines his other feats while Kraven's is a feat with heavy context (which I mentioned) and supporting evidence.

while Kraven’s speed blitz is not within his normal visual grammar and is less to be relied on.

Because he normally doesn't fight a Spidey who is young and beat.

I’d say Shaolin has an edge in speed, although not a lot.

When Kraven uses FTE or blur\afterimage speeds he can use it on his entire body in combat with bullet timers, meanwhile Shaolin just jumps in FTE\blitzes a fodder in FTE or shoots\throws things in afterimage speeds. I don't really see how you can say Shaolin is faster. Oh and if you wanna use fodder, here Kraven is looking like he teleported to a normal human.

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He even does this against Spidey.

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Strength

I’m fine with a tie. In addition to his striking power, Shaolin does also have the time he lifted a 2-ton boulder (just as a reminder to the readers that it’s not all striking power).

You know that doesn't matter in Shaolin's fighting style, right? Besides, if you go taht route, i can bring up how he was overpowered by this girl.

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Nerve Strikes

First, Cowboy’s nerve strike is not “basic,” it knocks her out. So its effect is as complete as anything Kraven can do.

Basic nerve attacks knock out. Fantastical ones give you super powers.

Second, while Kraven has more examples of using nerve strikes more often in combat, he also has literally 32x the appearances of the Cowboy, so that’s not surprising.

Except his percentage of usage is also higher since he uses it extremely often in the classic days.

Third, Shaolin Cowboy’s knowledge of what’s behind nerve strikes—that is, chi—is vastly superior. If he knows how to use nerve strikes to knock someone out, to heal himself,

Both of these I mentioned.

to erase someone’s memories,

Something used in combat exactly 0 times.

to levitate,

That's not a nerve strike.......

and to fight a hell-ghost as a spirit,

How is this connected to nerve strikes? And how is that useful, like at all?

he certainly knows all about any kind of nerve strike that Kraven is going to try out on him. He’ll recognize the incoming strike and block or dodge,

The same can be said in reverse.

or even potentially use his internal chi to negate the effect.

Has he done so? If not then that is baseless speculation.

And, he can potentially tap Kraven on the forehead and erase his memory of why he’s even there fighting.

He never does that in combat. But Kraven can also tap him in the head.........with his massive knife, which would definitely make Shaolin forget, and it would be easier for him to land as well, since he would have greater reach.

Kraven’s nerve punch is a classic, and useful part of his tactics. But against Shaolin, Kraven’s nerve punch is going to look like a Nervous Nelly.

Nervous Nelly here has used his nerve strikes on people faster than him, so he can certainly use it against somone slower than him. While mister master has used his on what seemed to be a girl, a confused girl himself and a ghost.

Shaolin Cowboy has the clear edge on offensive and defensive uses of chi strikes.

If you count who has more ghost effective moves, maybe. Otherwise Kraven has proved that he can use his against opponents superior and equal to him in stats and he has proved that he can target specific areas in the body, so his skill in this area is certainly more practical.

Durability

Shaolin Cowboy does in fact get his face all bloody and punched by Shelley—who is controlled by King Crab and thus has all of King Crab’s feats and skills. (Including the fact that each of her toes has mastered the Iron Palm technique!) So he gets pounded again and again in the face by someone who can cut a skull in half with her hand, by someone who on his own was able to break rocks in half, and all that happens to Shaolin Cowboy is his face gets bloody. Then he gets up and smacks Crab off and wins. The end result of taking all those hits, which all have extreme striking power—is just a bloody face. It’s a showing that for him, getting a bit bloody and bruised doesn’t mean anything, it’s just a surface kind of injury.

That's for clarifying, he gets beaten to a pulp by someone whose only feat is less impressive than this one feat Kraven has

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So this is actually way better than the many times Kraven gets punched 3 or 4 times by Spidey, or Spider-woman, or Black Widow, and is knocked out.

How durable do you think a skull is exactly? I mean.....you do remember that Spidey is superhuman? Because this statement confuses me deeply, how in the world is getting bloodied by this girl, better than tanking multiple hits from Spidey?

This is because his durability isn’t innate,

So one sucker punch from Kraven should OHKO him then? Well good to know.

I’d say it’s a tie, or maybe a slight edge to Shaolin Cowboy, given that we know that Kraven is ultimately able to be knocked out by multiple super-strength-punches, and that has never happened to Shaolin Cowboy, even when he takes numerous blows with super-striking-power continuously right in the face.

I am almost convinced that you only say this to sound impressive, if we compare feats side by side, Kraven is very clearly more durable. It took a pissed off Spidey to make him bleed and he took that hit like a champ. I mean seriously, he was crushed by a dumpster truck which can crush cars, rammed by a guy who can cause a helicopter to fall and remeained standing, took a dive bomb from BP and got up immediately after and instantly recovers from haymakers attacks from Spider-Man. Seriously, this guy is so tough that he can't even feel the hits of a normal person

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Credit to @k4tzm4n for the scan

He is such a beast that when his ship gets capsized, he walks it off like nothing happened.

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As I pointed out above, the Hulk example doesn’t count since it’s from his healing factor era,

Which never ended.

and the Statue of Liberty explosion not only didn’t affect Rocket either, but explosions usually don’t seem to do much to anyone in comics.

1. Rocket was father away and had protection but Kraven was closer and only had his back to protect him. 2. The Satue also fell on Kraven. 3. Your whole "explosions don't work in comics" is poorly researched, give me 10 minutes and I can show you 30 times explosions worked like tyhey should in comics.

Weapons

Shaolin Cowboy’s reach, and his speed with the chainsaws, gives him the advantage for sure. I don’t think Kraven is going to hit the saw with the knife, and even if he did, even having part of the staff is still better than the knife, in terms of reach, by a long shot.

He definitely could slice the saws and the staff. Any reach Shaolin has is gone.

Agility

A quality Shaolin doesn't use (by your own admission)........but okay Kraven has the edge here anyway.

But there's more fine dexterity to be considered, like Cowboy's ability to dance on punji sticks. It's about a mastery in moving your body around in space.

That's balance and dexterity for the most part, agility would be fighting Spidey in a construction building, doing a backflip and managing to tag Spidey.

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In particular, the Cowboy’s Lethal Levitation move does allow him some extra maneuverability or unusual angles of attack,

You take so much from this one paragraph when all it says it that he levitates.

or some breathing room if by chance he does get tagged by poison, a nerve strike, or a speed sapping ray.

He won't have the strength. And he will be as easy to hit as a pinata unless the next thing you will claim is that he can fly with that ability too

Category Winner: The one who has stated agility feats, Kraven.

Accuracy

when he misses a dehydrated Captain America, who’s still recovering from poison, from only a few feet away. I’ll note that Captain America uses the “only move as much as you need to” style of dodging that Shaolin Cowboy also uses. I’m not saying Kraven can’t shoot up close at all, but that’s not his area of expertise.

Did you even read the comic? Or did you willingly just take the context that made it seem like Kraven was a Stormtrooper then left out the rest? Sorry if I am being rude but come on.

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Kraven very clearly hit his mark, or are you trying to say that Cap dodged the attack by falling? Also, Cap was supposed to be delivered alive so if those are bullets in Kraven's gun then he clearly was not supposed to go for a kill shot (though I do not think it was a bullet in the gun).

Shaolin Cowboy’s accuracy with the button, shooting the bird crap, the soda can thrown on the finger behind his back, and the vulture eyeballs, are better. If anybody does shoot someone at range, it'll be the Cowboy.

I already showed Kraven tag BW and AV, both bullet timers. And tagging bullet timers is more practical in a fight, but I will admit that Shaolin is impressive. But Kraven is really good at hitting a moving target, so good that he gets closer to his mark every shot he makes at KaZar (a bullet timer).

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Another point would be the fact that if a bullet grazed Kraven then nothing happens but if a poisoned dart grazed Shaolin, he goes down like a ton of bricks

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So Kraven doesn't even need to be half as accurate as Shaolin. It should also be noted here, Cap has high resistance to drugs so Kraven's poisons are very potent.

Category Winner: Tie. It comes down to practicality vs all around impressiveness. So I would say that Shaolin is more accurate but Kraven is a quicker thinker which allows him to adjust his shots to make them tag people who would normally be able to dodge projectiles.

Skill

Cowboy will use his skill to overwhelm Kraven and take him down, piece by piece.

Yeah, yeah. Shaolin has a lot of technical skill. Kraven has skill more skilled people before and came out the victor, here he is beating DD and BW with ease (both being top tier, DD is also a nerve strike expert)

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You also have Kraven's son beating BP up so badly that BP got salty enough to consider murdering him in their next fight.

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I believe this sums it up best

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There Beast talks about how smart he is, but Kraven doesn't care as he schools Beast physically and verbally.

Winner Category: Like in accuracy, Shaolin is more skilled, but he can have also the fancy techniques in the world but that doesn't change the fact that Kraven in the better fighter. Yes, even with less skill Kraven is the better fighter, he knows how to adapt to a situation, he is more expirenced in dealing with people with greater skill than he, so I would even argue that Kraven has the edge.

More Categories!

Lets add 2 more categories that Kraven have the edge in, cause why not? I also don't think that either of these are game changers but you can respond to them if you'd like, I'm not up for another full length post though.

Senses

Like any good hunter Kraven possesses excellent senses, here he is able to sense Norman Osborne from far away and smell dogs from a distance, he can even tell that the dogs aren't normal.

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Why does this matter you ask? Because he can use his senses in combat as well, he uses them to match Spidey's Spider-Sense

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This also helps him with skill and agility, it also goes without saying that Kraven wins this category since you have provided no sensing feats asides from sensing poop from behind which isn't very good in comparison.

Intellect

As a Monk Cowboy must be skilled and accurate, so too must a hunter be smart and sensitive. And as the greatest hunter in the world, Kraven is also the smartest. He shows this by consistently luring Spidey into traps and playing him like a fiddle, like so

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And might I remind you, that Kraven was one of the very few villains who can say that they have beaten Spidey using brains. But that isn't to say that Kraven needs prep, oh no, even with just quick thinking Kraven can take on the X-Men and fullfill his mission

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As you can see, he strategically chooses his targets and escapes after taking out a whooping 3 X-Men with only the idiot Blob as his ally (granted they all recover but his mission was only to get DNA and not to beat them).

So yeah, Kraven wins here too since it seems as if Shaolin relies on his master's teaching s for strategy which would slow down his decision making.

Counters: Your Conclusion

Kraven tends to take hits rather than block or dodge,

Because who has time to dodge when you are this much of a beast?

and gets knocked out by blunt force reasonably often despite his durability, and Shaolin Cowboy can capitalize on that.

Which only happens after multiple blows from high street levelers like Spidey. Against people of his tier, he can trade shots all day. I mean honestly, if Kraven just wised up and realized that DP, DD, MK, Cap, Hawkeye or literally of Marvel's street levelers that isn't the King of street, he would be unstoppable.

Shaolin Cowboy can take Kraven’s punches

He would be turned into a bloody pulp by them as shown by your own scans, but Kraven won't beat on him anyway since he will go for the quick kill.

and is currently undefeated.

Cause he is a hero of a comic series with an end. Doesn't mean much, a lot of indie guys I know only lose for plot reasons.

Shaolin Cowboy has clearly better pure skill feats.

Agreed. But DD is better at pure skill than Kraven too and he lost badly, as did BP.

Shaolin Cowboy’s weapons can tear Kraven up, as can his hand techniques, and there’s not much Kraven can do about that.

Disagreed, Kraven can tear the chainsaw blade and dodge any of the handslices.

Shaolin Cowboy has random options like the Lethal Levitation that can help him out if he’s in a tight spot.

Nope. That ability is vague and only mentions levitation (nothing about height or movement) which means Shaolin is still an easy kill.

Shaolin Cowboy has the skill, speed, and awareness to wade through tons of opponents both offensively and defensively, which will prepare him for Kraven’s far fewer attacks per second.

None of Shaolin's enemies is as fast or ferocious as the Hunter. He won't be prepared for him, Kraven meanwhile has faced groups, people faster than him and people stronger than him and came out in one piece.

Shaolin Cowboy has superhuman perception (like when he sensed a garbage bag falling at him from behind, or he sensed bird poop falling at him from behind), which will help him avoid surprise tactics from Kraven, like from the eye blasts.

But Kraven has better senses.

Shaolin Cowboy has faced demons, monsters, animals, giant animals, giant car-covered animals, kung fu giant animals, and mind-controlling kung fu crabs, all of which have prepared him well to defeat Kraven the Hunter i a battle royale. The Shaolin Cowboy may come out bloody and bruised, but he will come out victorious!

Spidey has faced all of that and more, but who beat him? Kraven. BP, DD, BW, the X-Men and Tigra too, but what you faced before can never prepare you for a fight like this, for a a man that even monsters fear (just ask Vermin).

My Conclusion

Kraven is clearly faster and more durable while having more offensive options, the only clear advantage Shaolin has is pure skill but that isn't something Kraven hasn't beaten before. All in all, Kraven just needs one good hit to end the fight and I have more than proven that he will get that hit.

Side note, even though I proved that Kraven is still immortal. For this battle he will not be as both Owie and I thought that he lost the ability before this battle was made, so bringing up an ability like immortality would not be fair. But it isn't as if Kraven needs it anyway.

Anyway, now that Kraven has beaten the Shaolin cowboy the only question now is........

Who's Next?

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#16 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: That should be all. You can counter the two sections I added if you want, but I don't think I want to do another full length post, not like I added anything new besides those. Anyway, good debate, although I may have gotten a bit pissy during the accuracy part, it was a fun debate all around.

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#17 Edited by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm:

My friend, you did seem pretty pissed through your last post. So if I did anything in my own last post to bring you to that state, then I apologize. I am approaching CAVs in a more competitive mode than I normally debate, but I don’t want to be a jerk about it or anything, and I want it to be fun for both of us. I have been enjoying it, so I do hope you have too. So if I came off as being too snarky or something, I’m sorry about that.

It seems, from what you wrote, is that you feel that I was lowballing Kraven’s durability, and/or that I was making stuff up. I want to address these points a bit and then a few other specific issues. I'm not going to get into every little detail, but I do want to address this stuff. [EDIT: I meant for this to be short, but it got long.]

Lowballing Kraven: In your first post, you showed two examples of Kraven’s durability—him getting punched by a bloodlusted Spider-man and completely ignoring it, and getting blasted by Cyclops, and you said “only two scans are really needed.” By giving this punch scene as one of only two examples for how you wanted to present his durability, and saying that it was all that’s needed, you’re very heavily implying that this is Kraven’s typical durability, that Kraven is above and beyond Spider-man’s ability to hurt with a punch. But this is not the case. So I then had to spend the majority of my posts pointing out that in fact, Kraven does feel Spiderman’s punches (as well as those of others), that he doesn’t just stand there but gets knocked back, and that upon repeated punches, he consistently gets knocked out. This is by no means to say that Kraven’s durability sucks, he obviously does a generally pretty good job taking a punch from Spider-man, who is obviously a strong dude. But you set up your whole case for Kraven by implying that he can ignore Spidey’s punches, so it was my job to show that that was false. That’s all I was doing in those scans. I’m not lowballing him, but I am trying to show the statistical reality of Kraven’s reactions to being punched by Spider-man and others.

Making stuff up: The main thing here seems to be the Kraven’s Last Hunt potion although I feel like that leaked out onto other issues. I fully agree that the story does not explicitly say that the new potion gives him a specific durability amp. But, what IS totally clear from the story is that Kraven drinks the potion because he thinks it will give him an advantage in this hunt, that Kraven goes crazy from the potion, and that Kraven is on a new level in terms of durability, aggressiveness, and in his ability to beat Vermin, who the story sets up as being too tough for Spider-man alone, and clearly previous Kraven stories have never made him out to be Spider-man’s superior. So, it is not too giant a leap for me to see that the potion is what leads to him having this advantage, whether through giving him a literal increase in durability by giving him spider-powers, or just giving him an adrenaline-like capacity to ignore pain due to his insanity. If you disagree, fine, but then we just have to call his durability here a high outlier with no explanation. I prefer to use the pretty reasonable explanation, which is implied in the story and images, which is that Kraven moves up a level due to the new potion. This is me trying to find an in-universe reason for the outlier to exist, not me trying to make stuff up for no reason.

Then just a couple specific issues:

Statue of Liberty: I’ve now gone and read the issue. Readers, you can find all the related pages here, which are all in order. Rocket and Kraven start off about 5 feet apart. Rocket blows up a tanker, which blows up the Statue of Liberty. Rocket and Kraven are almost the exact same distance from the explosion, with Rocket hiding behind a small piece of metal that is obviously not significant protection. If the explosion hurt Kraven it would have hurt Rocket; since Rocket is not hurt by the explosion, clearly it would not do much to Kraven either, even if missing Rocket's single plate of protection. The Statue falls, but we can’t see either Rocket or Kraven when it does, so we have no idea if they were hit or not. The next page, we see Rocket, now standing about 20 feet in front of the statue—so if Kraven was standing in the same place he was before, Kraven would have missed being hit by the head of the statue. AT WORST, he has been hit by some random smaller detritus that we don't see. Or he was washed away in the giant wave created by the crash. Or he is hidden inside the hollow of the head—WHO KNOWS? There is no evidence whatsoever that he was hit by the statue. Literally anything could have happened, and given that he shows up next in totally fine health, it seems much more reasonable to assume he wasn’t hurt much, than it is to assume he was crushed by the entire Statue of Liberty and survived. Especially when, next issue, Rocket beats him by stuffing a flash bang in his pants. That disables him, but a fallen Statue of Liberty only takes him out for a day or so? Occam’s Razor tells us to go for the simplest explanation, which is that he was just washed away by the wave or something, and not hurt, thus explaining his quick return in good health, and that him being hurt by the flashbang, which we see directly, is the accurate portrayal of his durability—which again is still pretty good durability, it’s just not “able to survive being crushed by the entire Statue of Liberty” good.

Explosion comparison: You can’t say that Ms. Marvel is somehow too cartoony when comparing it to the Rocket Raccoon comic, which is also extremely cartoony in both drawing and writing style. Just look at that bomb in the pants gag! I went through all those Rocket issues, they're totally over the top. If you want to discount the Ms. Marvel explosion as being too silly and unrealistic in its lack of incineration, it’s the exact same thing in Rocket. As to comparing actually dangerous explosions to non-dangerous explosions in comics, that could go on forever, but honestly if you want, I would be totally up for making a thread where all you and I do is compare different explosions and whether anyone actually gets hurt by them. Hell I just saw another example today in Darth Vader. That’s my sincere take on explosions in comics, you can disagree but I’m not just making this up to lowball Kraven. In any case, the point here is, the explosions in the Ms. Marvel and Rocket comics are equally cartoony, and are equally not a source of real danger to any of the characters involved. Honestly after reading through this, and taking into account that half of Kraven's very recent appearances are in Rocket, Squirrel Girl, and Spidey, I take back the "Spidey is too cartoony in visual grammar compared to most of Kraven's appearances" argument, because most of his recent appearances do actually use that style.

Hulk: Spider-man staggered the Hulk in Amazing Spider-man Annual 3, in 1966. The scans I showed you were from the first volume of Hulk (issue 3 and maybe 2? I forget) in 1962. So my Hulk scan and the Spider-man Annual are way closer in time, both showing a very early version of the Hulk, than the one you showed, which looked like Sal Buscema or maybe Mike Mignola art from the 80s.

Both dogs have both front legs replaced by knives, so there are 4 knives. You can see this in other images of them. They don’t get close to his face because he is blocking them. Because it’s all happening in after images, you don’t see actual contact, but obviously since they are physically on top of him, they would touch him if he weren’t blocking them.

Lethal Levitation: you asked about height. It states that he is above them, so he’s at least 6 or 7 feet in the air.

Captain America: I’ve got the Captain America comic, and I’m not sure what your issue with my comments here is. Here are all the pages, for the readers to see. Kraven is after Cap, and yes Kraven is not supposed to kill him. He shoots, and as far as I can tell, misses because Cap tilts his body to dodge. Cap falls, grabs Kraven, and Kraven then grabs his leg. Cap says he’s getting weak, and he needs Kraven to turn off the shock collar, which as we can see from the glow around it is what is making him weak. You seem to think Kraven’s gun shot something other than a bullet—I don’t understand why you think this. He used a similar-looking gun earlier to shoot a tree with what seemed like a bullet, it is likely that this is the same gun and same ammunition now. If it’s some kind of tranq dart, or a stun ray or something, we certainly don’t see it, and we don’t see anything hit Cap, either from impact lines or blood splatter. There’s no wound on the panel where Cap dodges or when he’s hanging from the cliff. The gun makes a “bang” sound so a bullet seems like a pretty logical choice. But whatever it was, the point is that Kraven shot from a few feet away and missed. He’s not a Stormtrooper at all, but his aim is dodgeable by a skilled fighter.

Kraven’s curse and Squirrel Girl: I’m aware of what Squirrel Girl said in her first issue. That was, incidentally, one of author Ryan North’s first Marvel issues. I’m pretty sure it's just a mistake by a writer new to Marvel. Since we agree Kraven doesn’t have his healing factor in our battle, it doesn’t really matter, but I want to clear it up as an academic matter. During his cursed healing factor phase, Kraven’s healing factor was off the hook, I agree: he took a beating from the Hulk like you showed, he was stabbed in the heart and ignored it. But after Squirrel Girl 1, Kraven has been severely hurt or knocked out several times, and thus was seemingly without his healing factor. He was knocked out in the second volume of Squirrel Girl by the Doombot; he was knocked out by Spider-woman; he was knocked out by Venom throwing the body at him and as I pointed out he was KOd for several pages; he was temporarily incapacitated by pain when Rocket dropped a bomb in his pants. During his healing factor phase, Kraven would have shrugged all this off, none of it would have knocked him out. This all points very much towards Kraven not having his healing factor any more, post-Scarlet Spider. So, there are three options: (1) Kraven does have his healing factor, but all of these appearances have incorrectly not shown him having it. (2) Squirrel Girl 1 was just a mistake, because Ryan North didn’t realize Kraven didn’t have his healing factor any more, and we should just ignore the statement in that comic. (3) Squirrel Girl 1, while published after Scarlet Spider, actually took place before Scarlet Spider—a fix that is not uncommon, comics often note that they take place before a previously-published comic, and Squirrel Girl in particular has not stuck very closely to the normal Marvel timeline. Any of these three is possible, but (1) certainly seems the most unlikely, as it requires the biggest change to multiple comics. It seems way more likely that 2 or 3 is the case.

This is already longer than I meant it to be. As you said you don’t really want to get into a whole new back and forth, so I won’t really comment on the new Kraven scans. But I do think they’re probably the best ones, as a group. Kudos.

My take is still that Shaolin Cowboy wins around 6/10, with his skill being the deciding factor. Please respond as you like. I am sincerely appreciative that you took this on not knowing anything about the Cowboy and hope you feel that Kraven was in fact a good opponent for him.

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#20 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I will reply to the rest later since I am on mobile, but you clearly see Cap's shirt ripped from the gun shot here (second panel)

https://i.imgur.com/A5mqz2m_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Ah...that got ripped in the earlier fight with the leopard. (Here's Kraven using the same gun with what seems like a bullet earlier.)

@owie: Sorry, but I really wasn't. I was only irritated at the Cap scan since you cropped out the part where he fell. As for you lowballing, you didn't actually, and I don't think I said you did. I onky said that Kraven's durability was clearly superior towards the end.

We're all good. No hurry.

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#22 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm...T4V

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#23 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Here is my post, I deleted my earlier comments and put them on here instead.

No Caption Provided

Preface

My friend, you did seem pretty pissed through your last post.

I apologize, although in reality making the post was fun for me, and again the only time where I was really irritated was when you cropped out part of the Cap scan.

So if I did anything in my own last post to bring you to that state, then I apologize. I am approaching CAVs in a more competitive mode than I normally debate, but I don’t want to be a jerk about it or anything, and I want it to be fun for both of us. I have been enjoying it, so I do hope you have too. So if I came off as being too snarky or something, I’m sorry about that.

There is nothing to apologize for. Lol. You aren't even the most aggressive person I have CaV'd against. In fact, you are one of the most level headed, it has been a pleasure debating you.

It seems, from what you wrote, is that you feel that I was lowballing Kraven’s durability, and/or that I was making stuff up. I want to address these points a bit and then a few other specific issues. I'm not going to get into every little detail, but I do want to address this stuff. [EDIT: I meant for this to be short, but it got long.]

I am not even sure what I said to make you think that you were making things up. But if you think I called you a liar in any way then you are mistaken. Near everything brought up was debatable and I merely presented my stance. As for the lowballing I don't really think you did, but more on that below.

Lowballing?

Lowballing Kraven: In your first post, you showed two examples of Kraven’s durability—him getting punched by a bloodlusted Spider-man and completely ignoring it, and getting blasted by Cyclops, and you said “only two scans are really needed.” By giving this punch scene as one of only two examples for how you wanted to present his durability, and saying that it was all that’s needed, you’re very heavily implying that this is Kraven’s typical durability,

Yes, that is what I have been arguing this entire time.

that Kraven is above and beyond Spider-man’s ability to hurt with a punch.

But not this. From my own scan you can see Kraven bleed, the only thing I wanted to portray was 1. Kraven can take a full punch from Spidey standing and 2. He has great pain tolerance. Claiming Spidey can't hurt him with a punch is silly.

But this is not the case. So I then had to spend the majority of my posts pointing out that in fact, Kraven does feel Spiderman’s punches (as well as those of others),

To be honest, I was scratching my head at this the entire debate. I don't think I ever stated that Kraven can't be hurt by Spidey. Just that he can take the hits.

that he doesn’t just stand there but gets knocked back,

Again though, he frequently takes hits from Spidey and continues to fight as if nothing happened. Now that may sound like I am claiming Kraven can no sell Spidey's hits, but I am not. What I am saying is that Kraven can do this

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and that upon repeated punches, he consistently gets knocked out.

I never denied this. Multiple punches from Spidey takes out all of his rogues with the exceptions of the ones like Sandman or Electro who require special care.

This is by no means to say that Kraven’s durability sucks, he obviously does a generally pretty good job taking a punch from Spider-man, who is obviously a strong dude.

Which is what I was trying to convey.

But you set up your whole case for Kraven by implying that he can ignore Spidey’s punches, so it was my job to show that that was false.

That is certainly false. I did not want to imply such a thing nor did I try to. In fact I stated this

Scan 1. Spider man hits him twice in here so it isn't really fair to say that he should be able to tank two hits like he tanked one, also he is very clearly conscious in the last panel as you can see his eyes are open.

Scan 2. I actually find this hilarious, Spidey here is hitting Kraven with a full powered blow yet Kraven still talks normally and he talks about using his weapons, that hit did not even distract Kraven's thoughts.

Scan 3. I don't actually know why you bring this up because I consider this to be amazingly impressive for Kraven, Why? Because Spidey says in the scan that he used a punch that could stagger Hulk. This one (literally this one btw, Spidey annual 3)

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Which also downs the Hulk, but do you know what the difference between the two scans are? 1. Recovery time. Hulk gets up neigh instantly but Kraven does not. and 2. Kraven stayed upright and wobbled for a few seconds when at the same time Hulk fell down instantly.

Scan 4. He pretty much no sold that hit, panel 3 he gets hit, panel 4 he is shown to be having that same grin while he stands upright completely unharmed. And no, he did not grit his teeth cause of the hit, his teeth were out pretty much the whole page.

Which is me acknowledging Spidey can hurt Kraven. But remember, we weren't arguing on whether Spidey can hurt Kraven (since I never claimed he couldn't), we were arguing weather or not a singular punch from Spidey can make Kraven reel

Here’s a number of random examples of Kraven clearly reeling from Spidey’s punches, including one that shows that Spidey can straight-up knock him out via punches.

Which I disagree with, since often times Kraven is largely unharmed by the attacks. As Scan 2 and 4 show (I show those scans as scans 1 and 4 are Spidey using special or multiple blows)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
I used my colored scan since it looks better

So let us remember the definition of the word reel

And to understand the depth of what that means, we must also know what stagger means

As you can see, to make someone reel implies that you hit them hard enough that they can hardly stand. To put it visually, this is a reeling Kraven.

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And it is quite clear that a punch from Spidey does not normally make Kraven reel. Again scans 1 and 4 are your scans which show Kraven's norm, which is taking a punch and fighting on.

That’s all I was doing in those scans. I’m not lowballing him, but I am trying to show the statistical reality of Kraven’s reactions to being punched by Spider-man and others.

Your scans were not lowballing, in fact I too think they are standard showings (not his best but the norm). But saying that Kraven can hardly stand after a punch from Spidey is just wrong. The only times where Spidey even accomplished a hit that made Kraven reel was when he used his Hulk staggering blow.

Making stuff up: The main thing here seems to be the Kraven’s Last Hunt potion although I feel like that leaked out onto other issues. I fully agree that the story does not explicitly say that the new potion gives him a specific durability amp. But, what IS totally clear from the story is that Kraven drinks the potion because he thinks it will give him an advantage in this hunt,

Agreed, but as I said what Kraven thinks is irrelevant as at this point he was clinically insane.

that Kraven goes crazy from the potion,

No, he was crazy before he drank it.

and that Kraven is on a new level in terms of durability, aggressiveness,

These stem from the fact that he is insane. His durability did not increase.

and in his ability to beat Vermin, who the story sets up as being too tough for Spider-man alone, and clearly previous Kraven stories have never made him out to be Spider-man’s superior. So, it is not too giant a leap for me to see that the potion is what leads to him having this advantage, whether through giving him a literal increase in durability by giving him spider-powers, or just giving him an adrenaline-like capacity to ignore pain due to his insanity.

Do you know how Kraven really won? I have been meaning to talk about the fight in a longer fashion but here is the TL;DR,

1. Vermin is not strong, by feats there is no stat that he has that Spidey doesn't have better, and Spidey's speed and agility outclasses Vermin's.

2. Spidey can easily beat Vermin in a fight.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

3. As you can see from above Vermin posses a psychic poison which is his real danger. Here is a scan explaining it

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4. Spidey usually fights back against the poison, which causes him to lose, here he fights sloppily as the poison affects him yet he keeps a cool head.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As you can see that even with Cap, Vermin has the advantage.

Conclusion: Kraven's victory over Vermin was not meant to show any superiority over his previous self or Spidey, it was there to show his change of character and savage nature.

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`You can see how closely this parallels Spidey beating Vermin from the pic below, pay attention to the thought bubbles as it portrays Kraven fully embarrassing what he is doing while Spidey tries to reject it (ultimately failing before the doctor snaps him out of it).

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Btw, Vermin beat a weakened Spidey in Last Hunt, it was not a fair fight.

If you disagree, fine, but then we just have to call his durability here a high outlier with no explanation. I prefer to use the pretty reasonable explanation, which is implied in the story and images, which is that Kraven moves up a level due to the new potion. This is me trying to find an in-universe reason for the outlier to exist, not me trying to make stuff up for no reason.

1. I disagree that this is an outlier, normal Kraven takes a punch and shakes it off, crazy Kraven takes a punch and smiles as it, granted Spidey was hitting him harder here, but as you pointed out Spidey was not bloodlusted just pissed. This is certainly a good showing for him but not an outlier. 2. If you dig deeper the whole potions scene was there to show the extent of Kraven's insanity nothing more.

Specifics

Statue of Liberty: I’ve now gone and read the issue. Readers, you can find all the related pages here, which are all in order. Rocket and Kraven start off about 5 feet apart. Rocket blows up a tanker, which blows up the Statue of Liberty. Rocket and Kraven are almost the exact same distance from the explosion, with Rocket hiding behind a small piece of metal that is obviously not significant protection. If the explosion hurt Kraven it would have hurt Rocket; since Rocket is not hurt by the explosion, clearly it would not do much to Kraven either, even if missing Rocket's single plate of protection.

So if Rocket is hurt, so is Kraven and if Rocket is unharmed, Kraven must be too? I disagree, Rocket had protection and was further away, not only that but he has a history of tanking explosions point blank.

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He even tanks laser fire directly without a scratch. So if you are saying that Rocket with metal plate is around as ds durable as Kraven, then I can accept that.

The Statue falls, but we can’t see either Rocket or Kraven when it does, so we have no idea if they were hit or not.

But we do, as I will show later.

The next page, we see Rocket, now standing about 20 feet in front of the statue—so if Kraven was standing in the same place he was before, Kraven would have missed being hit by the head of the statue. AT WORST, he has been hit by some random smaller detritus that we don't see. Or he was washed away in the giant wave created by the crash. Or he is hidden inside the hollow of the head—WHO KNOWS? There is no evidence whatsoever that he was hit by the statue. Literally anything could have happened, and given that he shows up next in totally fine health, it seems much more reasonable to assume he wasn’t hurt much, than it is to assume he was crushed by the entire Statue of Liberty and survived.

We see exatcly where Rocket was during the fall (outlined by a brown circle), and from that I roughly estimated where Kraven would have been (outlined by the orange circle).

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And no, that isn't some speck I decide is Rocket, if you look close you can see his shield, pointy ears and limb.

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Especially when, next issue, Rocket beats him by stuffing a flash bang in his pants. That disables him, but a fallen Statue of Liberty only takes him out for a day or so? Occam’s Razor tells us to go for the simplest explanation,

But we have proof that he was hit, Occam's Razor applies in philosophy where proof is an imagination.

which is that he was just washed away by the wave or something, and not hurt, thus explaining his quick return in good health, and that him being hurt by the flashbang, which we see directly, is the accurate portrayal of his durability—which again is still pretty good durability, it’s just not “able to survive being crushed by the entire Statue of Liberty” good.

1. A wave washed away Rocket, that was how close he was to it. And if you think Rocket's best was a mere wave then good sir, you underestimate Rocket to a dangerous degree.

2. He was hurt by the flashbang as it hit his man bits. Not even Virbanium can protect you from that. No joke.

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So don't you go on saying that his durability showing is only that good. The statue missed his man bits.

Explosion comparison: You can’t say that Ms. Marvel is somehow too cartoony when comparing it to the Rocket Raccoon comic, which is also extremely cartoony in both drawing and writing style. Just look at that bomb in the pants gag! I went through all those Rocket issues, they're totally over the top. If you want to discount the Ms. Marvel explosion as being too silly and unrealistic in its lack of incineration, it’s the exact same thing in Rocket.

Nope. Rocket is outrageous and over the top but judging by the middle finger and violence, is aimed more at DP's audience. Ms. Marvel's is cartoony and childish, it is aimed at SJW's. They aren't the same thing. It is like comparing Bugs Bunny to Kickass (to a lesser degree of course). In fact Shaolin Cowboy is just as over the top as Rocket

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As to comparing actually dangerous explosions to non-dangerous explosions in comics, that could go on forever, but honestly if you want, I would be totally up for making a thread where all you and I do is compare different explosions and whether anyone actually gets hurt by them. Hell I just saw another example today in Darth Vader. That’s my sincere take on explosions in comics,

I'm a nerd, but I'm not a "look through past comics history for a random question" type of nerd. Lol.

you can disagree but I’m not just making this up to lowball Kraven.

Yes, that is the problem. You dismiss all of his best feats as "cartoony" (Rocket feat), "from healing factor" (Hulk) or simply "an outlier" (Last Hunt).

In any case, the point here is, the explosions in the Ms. Marvel and Rocket comics are equally cartoony, and are equally not a source of real danger to any of the characters involved.

The explosion in Ms. Marvel knocked someone back (cartoon logic), the explosion in Rocket caused a statue to fall (real world logic). Honestly though, the real attack was the falling statue. Rocket states that he flattened Kraven, so he did not intend to push him away a via waves to explode him.

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Third panel.

Remember, Rocket planned and sees what happens first hand, so he should be the one who knows.

Honestly after reading through this, and taking into account that half of Kraven's very recent appearances are in Rocket, Squirrel Girl, and Spidey, I take back the "Spidey is too cartoony in visual grammar compared to most of Kraven's appearances" argument, because most of his recent appearances do actually use that style.

Well, Kraven's concept is silly and he doesn't want to target Spidey as he has already beaten him, so Marvel is confused in how to use him (they already tried the "I want to die" angle but Marvel does not have it in them to kill Kraven again).

Hulk: Spider-man staggered the Hulk in Amazing Spider-man Annual 3, in 1966. The scans I showed you were from the first volume of Hulk (issue 3 and maybe 2? I forget) in 1962. So my Hulk scan and the Spider-man Annual are way closer in time, both showing a very early version of the Hulk, than the one you showed, which looked like Sal Buscema or maybe Mike Mignola art from the 80s.

Yes, the year a character is introduced can change them drastically. The first issue of Wolverine had him wear gloves for the gloves and only a year later was he established as a mutant (IIRD), those are the same Logans but they are still vastly different. Similarly, when Hulk was first envisioned, they wanted a complex tale of a man who was cursed with a Mr. Hyde in the Hulk, but later on (when he fought Spidey and the others) changed him to a rage monster.

Both dogs have both front legs replaced by knives, so there are 4 knives. You can see this in other images of them.

Then the 4th one is too far away for him to block.

They don’t get close to his face because he is blocking them. Because it’s all happening in after images, you don’t see actual contact, but obviously since they are physically on top of him, they would touch him if he weren’t blocking them.

Blocking them with TK? His hands aren't close either. Looks to me like he dodges them using his minimal movement style (dodging takes less movement than blocking).

Lethal Levitation: you asked about height. It states that he is above them, so he’s at least 6 or 7 feet in the air.

Eh, easy hit. Kraven can hit his mark from a across a building.

Captain America: I’ve got the Captain America comic, and I’m not sure what your issue with my comments here is. Here are all the pages, for the readers to see. Kraven is after Cap, and yes Kraven is not supposed to kill him. He shoots, and as far as I can tell, misses because Cap tilts his body to dodge. Cap falls, grabs Kraven, and Kraven then grabs his leg.

The problem is just that, he falls and you cropped it out. Now, I may just be overreacting but I thought it was you making it look like Cap dodged and just dodged and without seeing Cap fall directly after there is no reason for you to think otherwise. I know now that you only did it since you legit think Cap dodged and had no neferious intent, but I offer a different take. Kraven shoots him in the shoulder with a tranq

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You can see Kraven say Cap will go unconscious in the 4th panelm so clearly that shot was not meant to be a kill shot , we know Kraven uses tranqs so we can assume that Kraven wants Cap to go unconscious using a tranq. We then see Cap hold his shoulder and fall in the 5th and 6th panels indicating that he has been shot there (other wise why does he fall?), then Kraven chases after him as he wants Cap alive in the last panel (again indicating bullets were not used as bullets kill). In the next page we see more evidence for a tranq as Cap says.....

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"I'm about 5 seconds away from blocking out." in the last panel. Why does he say this? He was tired and dehydrated, yes. But 5 seconds of strength left? Really? Now I must admit that I am a Cap fan so maybe I am biased, but that isn't Captain America. The Cap I know can have a building dropped on him and do flips right after, not to mention his healing factor and endurance that astounds even Namor.

So yeah, it is more inline for both Cap and Kraven for Kraven to have tagged Cap with a tranq rather than a weakened Cap dodge a point blank shot then pass out right after.

Cap says he’s getting weak, and he needs Kraven to turn off the shock collar, which as we can see from the glow around it is what is making him weak.

I see no such glow the entire second scan. I cropped out every neck shot we get so you can see for yourself.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The only time a glow happens is when Cap is shokced the next page which does not explain why he fell or why he only has 5 seconds of juice.

You seem to think Kraven’s gun shot something other than a bullet—I don’t understand why you think this. He used a similar-looking gun earlier to shoot a tree with what seemed like a bullet,

Everything is not what it seems. We know that gun, it comes from the Last Hunt, he uses that gun against Spidey, but what was in the gun? A bullet? Nope.

No Caption Provided

This should also explain how Kraven even effects the highly poison resistant Steve, by using the same poison that kept Spidey out for weeks.

it is likely that this is the same gun and same ammunition now. If it’s some kind of tranq dart, or a stun ray or something, we certainly don’t see it, and we don’t see anything hit Cap, either from impact lines or blood splatter. There’s no wound on the panel where Cap dodges or when he’s hanging from the cliff. The gun makes a “bang” sound so a bullet seems like a pretty logical choice.

But we do see Cap hold his shoulder and given that

1. Kraven isn't incompetent to miss a weakened Cappoint blank.

2. He regulaly uses poisons, even from the same gun.

3. Steve holds his shoulder after we see the gun go off, but no wound.

4. Steve then falls and says he will black out in 5 seconds.

It is not unreasonable to say that a tranq was responsible or some sort of beam.

But whatever it was, the point is that Kraven shot from a few feet away and missed. He’s not a Stormtrooper at all, but his aim is dodgeable by a skilled fighter.

But I disagree.

Kraven’s curse and Squirrel Girl: I’m aware of what Squirrel Girl said in her first issue. That was, incidentally, one of author Ryan North’s first Marvel issues. I’m pretty sure it's just a mistake by a writer new to Marvel.

Yeah, Marvel wouyldn't let a careless mistake fly. The whole immortal Kraven was a large plot point in that story.

Since we agree Kraven doesn’t have his healing factor in our battle, it doesn’t really matter, but I want to clear it up as an academic matter.

True, but it does matter when you claim his durability is just him healing. Which it isn't btw, he stayed conscious from the Hulk hit, he didn't have to heal.

During his cursed healing factor phase, Kraven’s healing factor was off the hook, I agree: he took a beating from the Hulk like you showed, he was stabbed in the heart and ignored it. But after Squirrel Girl 1, Kraven has been severely hurt or knocked out several times, and thus was seemingly without his healing factor. He was knocked out in the second volume of Squirrel Girl by the Doombot; he was knocked out by Spider-woman; he was knocked out by Venom throwing the body at him and as I pointed out he was KOd for several pages; he was temporarily incapacitated by pain when Rocket dropped a bomb in his pants.

Even with regen you can be KO'd.

During his healing factor phase, Kraven would have shrugged all this off, none of it would have knocked him out.

False. Regen has nothing to do with blunt force. Yes, that is illogical in real world but it is how it is in Marvel. Peopel with DP level regen can be KO'd and be affected by venom blasts, here is a 2 for 1 scan proving that.

No Caption Provided

As you can see WBN (guy who can heal from headshots) gets KO'd. So yeah, Kraven can get Ko'd and would have been KO'd even with immortality.

This all points very much towards Kraven not having his healing factor any more, post-Scarlet Spider.

Like I said, it proves nothing.

So, there are three options: (1) Kraven does have his healing factor, but all of these appearances have incorrectly not shown him having it. (2) Squirrel Girl 1 was just a mistake, because Ryan North didn’t realize Kraven didn’t have his healing factor any more, and we should just ignore the statement in that comic. (3) Squirrel Girl 1, while published after Scarlet Spider, actually took place before Scarlet Spider—a fix that is not uncommon, comics often note that they take place before a previously-published comic, and Squirrel Girl in particular has not stuck very closely to the normal Marvel timeline. Any of these three is possible, but (1) certainly seems the most unlikely, as it requires the biggest change to multiple comics. It seems way more likely that 2 or 3 is the case.

One thing. Kraven is immortal and doesn't have a traditional healing factor. Why does it matter? Cause it discredits option 1 further since we do not ever see Kraven killed after the Scarlet Spider issue, so we cannot know if he could heal from death.

As for options 2 and 3. I find 2 to be crazy since any person who just keeps up with Kraven (they guy they are writing) could call BS and there are many people who work on a single comic. And 3 is not probable since Squirrel Girl came a year after and her talk with Kraven should have affected his mindset (since iSG was telling Kraven how Spidey is not the best prey) yet he still goes after Scarlet.

Conclusion

1. I did not mean to be overly aggressive or rude nor did I mean that you make things up or use low showings.

2. Kraven is hurt by Spidey's hits but does not consistently reel from them. He only does when Spidey busts his hand on him or uses his Hulk staggering hit.

3. Kraven was unamped and him beating Vermin proves nothing.

4. The Statue of Liberty fell on Kraven and he survived. Rocket is also an over the top comic but not a cartoony one.

5. Kraven very likely shot a tranq or poison at Cap.

6. Kraven is an immortal but can be knocked out as Marvel's healers do.

7. Kraven living from Hulk's blow is not due to regen.

Asides from that I stand by this

Kraven is clearly faster and more durable while having more offensive options, the only clear advantage Shaolin has is pure skill but that isn't something Kraven hasn't beaten before. All in all, Kraven just needs one good hit to end the fight and I have more than proven that he will get that hit.

Also, I must say it again but it was a pleasure to debate you and the Cowboy.

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: So......can you open votes now?

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#25 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: So......can you open votes now?

Glad to, I think we've both had our say. I enjoyed it too. I'll change the title of the thread now and tag the people who asked to be tagged, then I'll add some others later. Feel free to call anyone else out.

OPEN FOR VOTES! ENJOY READING OUR BATTLE BETWEEN THE ULTIMATE KUNG-FU ADVENTURER AND THE GREATEST HUNTER OF THEM ALL!

tagging @god_vulcan@wyldsong@majinblackheart

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#26 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: @king_hellstorm: If I haven't dropped a vote in the next day or so, bump me again. I do plan on fully reading this and voting.

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#27 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

Almost done reading this...

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#28 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting read of this strange character.

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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Due to your track record of voting against me, I am super nervous. Lol.

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#34 Edited by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright...just finished reading this CaV, and I must say, it was enjoyable. There was a feeling of saltiness towards the ending posts, but you guys basically shook and made up, even if you still didn't come to an agreement overall on a few issues. With that said, I will preface the following the way I always do: I am simply laying down my own personal opinion on this debate, and I have no interest in getting into any side debates on these opinions. I will lay down my thoughts, but I am not here to debate with either of you. So take what I say with a grain of salt, and know there is nothing personal meant in any of this. I have a great deal of respect for both of you, and overall, it was a pleasure to read this debate between the two of you.

@owie: So, my major criticism here is the amount of detail you went into in regards to Kraven's blunt force durability and durability versus blasts and explosions overall. It was basically wasted effort in the sense that from what I have seen of Shaolin Cowboy, even with his strikes, he primarily cuts and pierces with his attacks. This is something that your opponent was in agreement with you about, so I fee that overall, you could have focused your energies and efforts elsewhere in the debate. Beyond that, major props on using an indie character. That comic looks like a wild and crazy ride, and is one I am interested in checking out. I think you did well outlining his skills and abilities, and I think you proved he more than has the skill and speed to keep up here. Plus, his striking force is pretty insane, and the way he handles that chainsaw thing is crazy.

@king_hellstorm: Now, I am not going to ding you for the overall durability discussion, you were responding and defending, no shame in that. That said, you did well in your defense of Kraven, outlined his speed, agility, and so on, well. I think you did well in proving a character that many tend to underestimate on the forums, is actually a force to be reckoned with, and that he isn't going to simply, roll over and let the Shaolin Cowboy win. It was also nice seeing you lay out his equipment...and I giggled like a schoolgirl when you said "nipple lasers"...but you were only being accurate in your discussion. That said, where I disagree with your assessment is in the arena of art styles and speeds. This isn't an overall commentary on every cartoony instance versus the more realistic depictions, but specifically on the speed stuff. Now, you had plenty of feats showing that Kraven, really and truly does possess a more than formidable speed. I just don't personally buy into the one from the cartoony Spidey comic. I think you had plenty of material to work with on Kraven's speed without that one. Not that there was a major amount of focus on it, but I feel using it and defending it were not needed with his other, more palpable feats in play. As well, I agree with Owie's assessment on the scans from the Shaolin Cowboy and his speed. To me, it seems consistent with the speed that they meant to portray for the character. I think what we see in those scenes, is truly a testament to his speeds overall, and isn't just the byproduct of artistic stylings. He was meant to be superhuman in his speed, and that was just what the artwork was portraying.

Now for both of you in general: There are a lot of other comments that I could make on various issues and so on throughout the debate as a whole, but the above are the major things that stuck out to me on this reading. Another day, I may have picked different things out, but today, this is what stuck out to me. Beyond that, the formatting was alright overall, and the scan to word-smithing ratio was in a good balance for you both. For the most part, it at least felt like the scans being used were pertinent to the discussion overall, although, I did state where I had issue with the overly long durability stuff.

So...how do I vote here? We have two very closely matched debaters here in a heated contest...and to be honest, I am not sure where to place my vote as of yet. I am going to tag some people, and hopefully, we get some people dropping opinions and votes. I think this is a worthwhile CaV that people should read, and one that gives some great intel on these two characters. Hopefully seeing some other opinions will help me see something I am missing, but regardless, I will probably read this again and see if another reading sways me one way or the other.

@sirfizzwhizz@god_vulcan@majinblackheart@krleavenger: Guys, if you get a chance, read and vote. I believe each of you commented at some point, and I would love to see your thoughts on this close match.

@higorm@the_red_viper@cosmicallyaware1@vertigo-: Guys, no pressure, but I think this is a good CaV, and you all came to mind for recent interactions. Would love to see some thoughts on this.

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#36 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Oh, as a heads up, I am stealing that raindrop intel for another CaV. While I disagree with the overall intent in regards to Shaolin cowboy here...that was actually a really darn clever comparison to make. Kudos on that bud.

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#38 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Thanks for reading.

And thanks, I had trouble searchinh for how fast do zombies fall, so I had to look for a new angle. Lol.

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#39 Posted by Wyldsong (9849 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Lol...I understand my friend. I will say, it was good thinking on your part, and again, a very clever comparison to make=)

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#40 Posted by Vertigo- (17907 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I'll certainly bookmark it for now. I most likely won't get the chance to read through and vote on this until Friday-Saturday at the earliest.

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#41 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: Please do. As you can see, we typed a lot but the place is a ghost land. Lol.

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#42 Posted by Vertigo- (17907 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Owie (7247 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Thanks very much for the detailed breakdown and your thoughts. I hear where you're coming from. It's been an interesting experience trying out the CAV format, and I can already see different ways I would go with future ones, although I'm pretty happy with this. And especially happy to introduce the Cowboy to the Vine in detail.

Also, thanks for the extra callouts.

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: How about that vote though? :P

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#46 Posted by Vertigo- (17907 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I'll try and vote on this tomorrow. I forgot about it last week with the HoF/ personal stuff going on, and I've been sick the last few days.

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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18082 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: Sorry to bother you then. Get well soon if you aren't yet.