CAV: Kidman560 vs Sovereign91001

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Sovereign91001

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#1  Edited By Sovereign91001

Kidman560 will be representing: Black Panther

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Sovereign91001 will be representing Backlash

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Tale Of The Tape

Black PantherBacklash
Height: 6'0Height: 6'3
Weight: 200lbsWeight: 199 lbs

Occupation: King Of Wakanda

Occupation: Adventurer/Soldier

Debuted: Fatastic Four # 52 (1966)Debuted: StormWatch # 4 (1993)

Fight Location

Abandoned, single floor mall.
Abandoned, single floor mall.

Rules Of Combat

  • No Prep
  • Standard Gear
  • Both Combatants are In character
  • Winner by KO, Death or Incap
  • No Knowledge
  • Starting distance 50 feet
  • Black Panther is Pre-KOTD
  • Backlash has No Gen Factor and is not allowed to mist kill

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Sovereign91001

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kidman560

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#5  Edited By kidman560

@sovereign91001:

first off an excellent picture of BP (I love it)

but being the king of the technologically advanced Wakanda comes with some cool gadgets

vibranium- daggers

1. can set them to stun (or kill).

2. can send many of these

3. they can deaden nerves

4. they can go intangible (so armor wont help much)

5. they were able to hurt Ultron

his vibranium suit has allowed him to tank blows from Namor and Hulk

and from Iron Man

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he can also run up walls

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his claws instantly break down all metal it come in contact with (aren't backlashes whips metal?)

Skills

can you believe that whole thing was all on tech... (and he has even more now) now we move to skills

so BP humiliates Wolverine pretty badly

1. he was so fast he was able to jump into Invisible Womans force field (you know how fast she can put those up)

2. some great agility as he runs down a building

3. dodges 3 bullets up close

4. dodges Sniper Bullets up close

Spidey gets owned pretty hard.

Fighting Abilities

pressure points (even worked on Luke Cage)

he embarrasses Captain America.

and as i showed earlier he owns Wolverine (thats 2 of some of the best fighters in Marvel)

this scan shows many things...

1. fast enough to casually dodge bullseye level items

2. he can read body language "tells"

3. is classified as one of the best in marvel... actually the best

took out Kraven who has moved so fast that Spider Man admits hes faster than him.

Conclusion

I dont pretend to know Backlash but i can almost assure that his tech is not better than Black Panthers... I dont want to say anything else other than BP will be very hard to tag and even harder to hurt.

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I also know very little about "misting" but given Black Panthers ability to detect Invisible Woman when she was invisible (here ill enlarge it) so his misting will need to keep him silent, invisible, and cover his scent. I may not know much but not many peoples invisibility skills can do all 3. so im not sure how affective his misting will be in this fight.

I'm interested to see how this is going to play out. Black Panthers Anti-metal claws combined with his extreme skill will make him very difficult to beat here.

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Erik

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@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

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Wolverine008

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@erik said:

@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

How big is the average 6'0 ft. guy?

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#8  Edited By Sovereign91001

@erik said:

@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

Yes

@erik said:

@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

How big is the average 6'0 ft. guy?

between 180 and 200 I think.

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@erik said:

@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

How big is the average 6'0 ft. guy?

I don't know. But I do know that I'm 200 lbs and only about 5'10'' and change. I'm big for my height but I'm not super hero big.

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Sovereign91001

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@erik: T'Challa I think is about average, Slayton is very underweight if I'm recalling my height/weight ratio correctly.

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Wolverine008

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@erik said:

@wolverine08 said:

@erik said:

@sovereign91001: Are those the official stats for these characters? Because that would make them both surprisingly small for their height lol.

How big is the average 6'0 ft. guy?

I don't know. But I do know that I'm 200 lbs and only about 5'10'' and change. I'm big for my height but I'm not super hero big.

I'm super buff!

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kidman560

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I'm 6'2 and 160 lbs = twig

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Erik

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@erik: T'Challa I think is about average, Slayton is very underweight if I'm recalling my height/weight ratio correctly.

T'Challa is anything but average. He's not a bodybuilder or anything but next to the average guy, he should be Arnold Schwarzenegger. Not that it matters too much. I didn't mean to derail your thread, I was just curious if these were officially released stats.

I'm super buff!

I saw your RL picture!

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Wolverine008

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@erik: I hope I didn't blind you with my sexiness!

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#17  Edited By Sovereign91001

@erik: No worries. I took the stats from Wildstorm Universe '97 #2 and the Marvel handbook respectively.

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OmgOmgWtfWtf

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Give these two a sandwich stat!

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@kidman560

Okay I'm gonna have to put a bit more info into this intro than I normally do as you're a bit unfamiliar with Backlash.

Bio

Marc Slayton aka Backlash is a half Kherubim warrior, while his exact age is unknown he is over 3,000 years old. Over his long life he's accrued much valuable battle experience and worn many hats. He has been was a ninja in feudal Japan, a knight, a member of Team Zero, Team One, Team 7, a Colonel in the US Air Force, Combat Instructer for StormWatch an agent of P.S.I (Paranormal Science Investigations), the founder of WildCore, Commander of I.O (Internal Operations) and most recently the Deputy Director of P.S.I

Fighting Skill

Slayton is widely considered one of the WSU's top fighters. This in itself is quite a feat in a Universe with fighters that include the like of Midnighter, Zealot, Nemesis and Grifter to name a few. As I mentioned above he is over 3,000 years old and has spent much of that time in combat, in one form or another.

But me talking about it only says so much, so to that end here are some skill feats:

Punks on five goons while intoxicated

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Bests Zealot in h2h combat, despite him being out of fighting shape

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And again beating her in h2h, ultimately this fight is a stalemate, he beats her h2h, she beats him with a sword

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If you didn't know Zealot is 10,000 years old, has millennia of battle experience and is a Coda trained fighter. In terms of gear, Slayton tends to carry his trusty trench knife with him and he's been seen with a pistol from time to time as well.

Whips

Backlash's signature powe is the manifestation of psionic whips or tendrils, these have various applications in and out of combat, he can even use them as a means of transportation in a manner similar to Spider-Man.

He is able to channel psionic energy down the length of these whips to devestating effect, he can KO or kill with them. Prior to the Gen Factor being rejected by his body they were capable of some pretty impressive feats, including one-shoting armored personnel carriers

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Briefly holding down Helspont

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After the Gen Factor was rejected by his body the power of his whips went up dramatically.

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Such to the point that he could one shot Daemonites without much effort.

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Physicals

Slayton's physiology grants him increased speed, strength, durability and agility. Speaking of that last attribute, his agility and speed are such that they'd make Spider-Man proud, much like the webbed wonder, he is a casual bullet timer, here he is dancing around the Savage Dragon and putting a little hurt on him as well.

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Dragon is a 30+ tonner, trained shooter with superhuman durability. It should be noted that he was injured prior to engaging the Dragon in a fight against S'ryn.

Some more agility

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And one more

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So yeah, avoidence isn't an issue for him.

Misting

The misting ability is exactly what it sounds like, Slayton can turn his body into a misty vapor, he can use this for a number of purposes, he can also control the density, the spread, how much of his body is turned to mist and the duration for which he was in mist form. When he had his Gen Factor he could do this an unlimited amount of times, after the Gen Factor was rejected by his body he could use this ability two or three times a day max.

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Hope this gives you a solid picture of Backlash's capabilities.

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Sovereign91001

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@dondave Can we get a blessing/sign off on this Cav?

Give these two a sandwich stat!

Lmao.

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kidman560

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@sovereign91001: this is going to be so much fun. i got staar testing today so ill see what i can do but until 1:00 (US Central Time) expect absolutely nothing from me

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OmgOmgWtfWtf

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#25  Edited By OmgOmgWtfWtf
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kidman560

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#26  Edited By kidman560

@sovereign91001: alright ill see what i can do...

Marc Slayton aka Backlash is a half Kherubim warrior, while his exact age is unknown he is over 3,000 years old. Over his long life he's accrued much valuable battle experience and worn many hats. He has been was a ninja in feudal Japan, a knight, a member of Team Zero, Team One, Team 7, a Colonel in the US Air Force, Combat Instructer for StormWatch an agent of P.S.I (Paranormal Science Investigations), the founder of WildCore, Commander of I.O (Internal Operations) and most recently the Deputy Director of P.S.I

very interesting... kind of reminds me of wolverine except no memory loss

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Black Panther has learned every fighting style on Earth, the only reason i didnt post this the first time is i wanted to show you everything that he has done to prove to you that this is in fact true

Slayton is widely considered one of the WSU's top fighters. This in itself is quite a feat in a Universe with fighters that include the like of Midnighter, Zealot, Nemesis and Grifter to name a few. As I mentioned above he is over 3,000 years old and has spent much of that time in combat, in one form or another.

But me talking about it only says so much, so to that end here are some skill feats:

Black Panther is regarded as one of the best Martial Artists in Marvel also so Black Panther is not outclassed here not even the slightest

Bests Zealot in h2h combat, despite him being out of fighting shape

it seems here that Zealot was talking to much here... given Black Panthers technology and skills it shouldnt be a hard feat to replicate as his Anti-metal claws would make short work of her sword and armor.

And again beating her in h2h, ultimately this fight is a stalemate, he beats her h2h, she beats him with a sword

as ive said its impressive but not something BP shouldnt be able to replicate... and given his anti-metal claws BP should be able to beat Zealot as she does not seem to have the same skill in H2H as she does with her sword.

If you didn't know Zealot is 10,000 years old, has millennia of battle experience and is a Coda trained fighter. In terms of gear, Slayton tends to carry his trusty trench knife with him and he's been seen with a pistol from time to time as well.

interesting, but both would be useless here. BPs suit has one "basic" weakness and that is slicing along the grain of the suit. but given as backlash has no knowledge on T'challa he wont find this out until his knife is broken

as you can see its knife and bullet proof

Backlash's signature powe is the manifestation of psionic whips or tendrils, these have various applications in and out of combat, he can even use them as a means of transportation in a manner similar to Spider-Man.

He is able to channel psionic energy down the length of these whips to devestating effect, he can KO or kill with them. Prior to the Gen Factor being rejected by his body they were capable of some pretty impressive feats, including one-shoting armored personnel carriers

interesting but if they are indeed energy they shouldnt work that well either

as his suit is pretty resistant to energy and even more so when he took a blast from Namor Phoenix

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and i seriously doubt his whips are packing the power of Phoenix Namor

So yeah, avoidence isn't an issue for him.

truly impressive however his speed is not greater than Panthers... as Panther has been fast enough to tag Spider Man easily. and how well is Backlash's durability to nerve loss and pressure points as T'challa knows how to do both (using daggers or abilities)

The misting ability is exactly what it sounds like, Slayton can turn his body into a misty vapor, he can use this for a number of purposes, he can also control the density, the spread, how much of his body is turned to mist and the duration for which he was in mist form. When he had his Gen Factor he could do this an unlimited amount of times, after the Gen Factor was rejected by his body he could use this ability two or three times a day max.

hmm this skill is potentially troubling. how are his stats while in this form?

also Black Panthers daggers were able to phases through Ultrons Adamantium shell and hurt him... shouldnt phased daggers harm backlash while he is "misting"

so im a little unsure and dont want to say anything definite... yet

Hope this gives you a solid picture of Backlash's capabilities.

it most assuredly does. Backlash is very impressive and i could definitely see him taking a few over Black Panther. but i think Black Panthers ability to read peoples fighting stance (even someone who has mastered many forms of combat* see the skrull fight) should allow him to predict Backlash's moves and utilize his technology, including his daggers and claws, to give him a majority here. Not mention Backlash is going to have to spend some time getting through T'challa's suit (it can be done but it is quite hard and very rare) while Black Panther could tear through it in seconds.

I think BP can swipe more wins here.

also i just got done with STAAR testing (Texas' state mandated tests) so if my grammar or spelling is abhorred try to bear with me... or let me know which parts so i can go fix them.

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Sovereign91001

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@kidman560:

Black Panther is regarded as one of the best Martial Artists in Marvel also so Black Panther is not outclassed here not even the slightest

I'd argue this point, Slayton's 3,000 years of experience would logically give him a much greater deal of experience over T'Challa. T'Challa may have studied every form of martial art on the planet and while he is undeniably skilled, I wouldn't place him above say Wolverine or Iron Fist in terms of technical skill as they have mastered every fighting art on the planet (and in Logan's case a few off of it).

it seems here that Zealot was talking to much here... given Black Panthers technology and skills it shouldnt be a hard feat to replicate as his Anti-metal claws would make short work of her sword and armor.

This is an equipment advantage, you're talking about here, Anti-Metal eats metal so of course it gives him an advantage. What I'm talking about is technical skill, which is a whole other ball of wax. You'll notice Slayton didn't bring his Psionic whips into play although he could have constricted her until she passed out, rather he out skilled her. Given Zealot's history of skill showings with the blade and h2h, I'm hesitant to say that T'Challa could replicate the same feat.

as ive said its impressive but not something BP shouldnt be able to replicate... and given his anti-metal claws BP should be able to beat Zealot as she does not seem to have the same skill in H2H as she does with her sword.

Zealot has been able to stalemate Midnighter in h2h, stalemate Nemesis etc. While her swordsmanship is more well known she's not lacking in the h2h department at all. He may be able to beat Zealot based on equipment, but in terms of skill, I don't see them as comparable at all. She has bested Batman (who I consider closer to T'Challa in skill) and the only reason he managed to last as long as he did was CIS and a bit of WIS for dramatic purposes.

The Nemesis fight (took place a couple of thousand years ago, so she's only refined her technique further and gotten better.

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interesting, but both would be useless here. BPs suit has one "basic" weakness and that is slicing along the grain of the suit. but given as backlash has no knowledge on T'challa he wont find this out until his knife is broken

They weren't really meant to be all that effective, or probably even used in combat, that was mainly just to let you know what his gear was, the knife is almost always present but he's used it maybe three times (The fight against the Savage Dragon and the forest feat with the battle droids included) in character, he tends to lead with the whips.

interesting but if they are indeed energy they shouldnt work that well either as his suit is pretty resistant to energy and even more so when he took a blast from Namor Phoenix

That's an excellent tempature feat, however the Phoenix channels cosmic fire, that other than the fancy name (and possibly temperature) isn't any different from normal amorphous fire.

and i seriously doubt his whips are packing the power of Phoenix Namor

There is a fair bit here, that differentiates Backlash's whips from what you've shown thus far, but I'll get into that a bit later into the debate.

truly impressive however his speed is not greater than Panthers... as Panther has been fast enough to tag Spider Man easily. and how well is Backlash's durability to nerve loss and pressure points as T'challa knows how to do both (using daggers or abilities)

I'm aware of both of the times this has happened, I won't say they are plot assisted, but I do believe that they are high-end showings for Panther, he's been consistently shown at around Wolverine's speed level, and although Logan is fast enough to tag Peter, he is slower than him, has been blitzed by him before...etc. Just as I believe that Panther is slower than him as well.

hmm this skill is potentially troubling. how are his stats while in this form?

The same, he's just considered intangible when he's misting, other than that no change.

also Black Panthers daggers were able to phases through Ultrons Adamantium shell and hurt him... shouldnt phased daggers harm backlash while he is "misting"

Possible, but not likely. As far as I know Panther's energy dagger is a unique weapon, I'm not sure there is an analogue to it that Slayton has encountered but he has misted around energy blasts and various stabbing and projectile weapons as well and has never been harmed by any of them. It should be noted while his skill with the mist is such that he can mist holes in his body and let weapons pass through parts of him, leaving him unscathed, so while I can't say with 100% certainty, I can say I find it an unlikely occurrence.

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Battle plan

it most assuredly does. Backlash is very impressive and i could definitely see him taking a few over Black Panther. but i think Black Panthers ability to read peoples fighting stance (even someone who has mastered many forms of combat* see the skrull fight) should allow him to predict Backlash's moves and utilize his technology, including his daggers and claws, to give him a majority here. Not mention Backlash is going to have to spend some time getting through T'challa's suit (it can be done but it is quite hard and very rare) while Black Panther could tear through it in seconds.

I think BP can swipe more wins here.

In a random encounter, he doesn't tend to lead with the daggers and in most of his random encounters that I can recall, there is almost always a bit of a feeling out process. That said If he tries to lead with the daggers in their projectile form, Slayton should be able to avoid them.

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Now at 50 feet, I don't think Slayton has the range on his whips to hit Panther, but anything within about 2-3 dozen feet is fair game

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Let's move onto the elephant in the room, T'Challa's Vibranium armor and what protection it can offer him. Now unlike the energy showings you posted Backlash's Psi-whips generate psionic energy in nature, much like a combination of Psylocke's TK Katana and her Psy Knife. I can't remember the armor having any special resistance to psionic energy so if Backlash sends a psi-shock down one of his tendrils it should be effective despite the armor.

He managed to dislodge a daemonite who was possessing his then lover, the shock was strong enough to put her into a coma.

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Despite having Whips he doesn't usually impale or whip his opponents, rather he favors constriction as you can see in a number of the scans I've uploaded thus far. And while the armor has excellent blunt force absorption, I do seem to remember him being choked out in it before, something Slayton has no problem doing in a random encounter. Back to the fight, if Panther is within that 2-3 dozen feet hit range He has no problem avoiding and counter attacking at the same time as seen in his fight with The Savage Dragon, I can post more showings that show him doing this as well

Slayton doesn't carry any metal or use much of anything in the way of armor, so if he is tagged with those claws they aren't going to do any extra damage to him, for all intents and purposes, they're two inch razors on T'Challa's hands he can use a partial misting like he did here to open up Panther for a counterattack.

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Slayton isn't going to reveal his misting unless it offers him a chance of counterattacking or it serves a tactical purposes as he often uses it as his 'ace in the hole'

Analysis

  • Misting can offer Backlash further chances to avoid damage or reposition himself for an advantage.
  • I believe Backlash has a agility and general speed advantage.
  • Psy shocking should allow Backlash to deal damage to Panther despite his armor.
  • Constriction should prove effective despite the armor's blunt damage resistance.
  • Range should favor Backlash in the 2-3 dozen foot range (on average) he's shown.
  • As for technical h2h prowess I think Slayton has the advantage which I'm still going to claim by right of Slayton's opponents and his battle experience.

Scans

To further illustrate Slayton's tactical and fighting skill, here he is taking out StormWatch by himself.

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kidman560

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#29  Edited By kidman560

@sovereign91001: not bad... not bad at all

I'd argue this point, Slayton's 3,000 years of experience would logically give him a much greater deal of experience over T'Challa. T'Challa may have studied every form of martial art on the planet and while he is undeniably skilled, I wouldn't place him above say Wolverine or Iron Fist in terms of technical skill as they have mastered every fighting art on the planet (and in Logan's case a few off of it).

normally id agree but Black Panther has schooled (repeatedly) Wolverine, someone who has had years and years and years of experience, I'd say that IF slayton is more experienced i wouldnt place to much into it. Not to mention BP can read body language (not to the degree of Cassandra Cain but enough to read the tells of someone with Iron Fist, Wolverine, Bullseye, Daredevil, and even Black Panther himself) so Slayton's experiences won't be a determining factor here

This is an equipment advantage, you're talking about here, Anti-Metal eats metal so of course it gives him an advantage. What I'm talking about is technical skill, which is a whole other ball of wax. You'll notice Slayton didn't bring his Psionic whips into play although he could have constricted her until she passed out, rather he out skilled her. Given Zealot's history of skill showings with the blade and h2h, I'm hesitant to say that T'Challa could replicate the same feat.

no i was merely offering the simplest of ways BP could win... giving his extensive close combat abilities including beating Wolverine, Kraven, Iron Fist, Lady Bullseye and Typhoid Mary (at the same time) i can quite readily agree that someone like Black Panther could replicate the same combat feat.

Zealot has been able to stalemate Midnighter in h2h, stalemate Nemesis etc. While her swordsmanship is more well known she's not lacking in the h2h department at all. He may be able to beat Zealot based on equipment, but in terms of skill, I don't see them as comparable at all. She has bested Batman (who I consider closer to T'Challa in skill) and the only reason he managed to last as long as he did was CIS and a bit of WIS for dramatic purposes

T'Challa is > Wolverine in skill that puts him in the Mister X and Gamora territory in terms of Martial Arts... vastly superior to that of Bruce Wayne

They weren't really meant to be all that effective, or probably even used in combat, that was mainly just to let you know what his gear was, the knife is almost always present but he's used it maybe three times (The fight against the Savage Dragon and the forest feat with the battle droids included) in character, he tends to lead with the whips.

fair enough...

That's an excellent tempature feat, however the Phoenix channels cosmic fire, that other than the fancy name (and possibly temperature) isn't any different from normal amorphous fire.

no... Cosmic Fire is the type of Fire that Nova (Herald of Galactus) uses, Regular fire is the type that Johnny Storm wields. Very different in terms of power and temperature.

I'm aware of both of the times this has happened, I won't say they are plot assisted, but I do believe that they are high-end showings for Panther, he's been consistently shown at around Wolverine's speed level, and although Logan is fast enough to tag Peter, he is slower than him, has been blitzed by him before...etc. Just as I believe that Panther is slower than him as well.

But ive stated many times that BP is faster than Wolverine... in fact Wolverine even Admitted that Panther was faster than himself.

In a random encounter, he doesn't tend to lead with the daggers and in most of his random encounters that I can recall, there is almost always a bit of a feeling out process. That said If he tries to lead with the daggers in their projectile form, Slayton should be able to avoid them

your right he doesnt usually lead with daggers, but I believe that as soon as he sees Slaytons tendrils he'll change that.

Now at 50 feet, I don't think Slayton has the range on his whips to hit Panther, but anything within about 2-3 dozen feet is fair game

sounds good...

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he moves as fast as Sabertooth. so 50 feet will be closed within seconds

as for the tendrils

given BP's ability to change direction and dodge every projectile thrown by Lady Bullseye without even a scratch Slayton is gonna have to spam those tendrils... he wont hit BP the first 2 times and by then BP will be tossing Daggers (nerve deadening daggers)

and these things are inexhaustible... he doesnt run out.

Let's move onto the elephant in the room, T'Challa's Vibranium armor and what protection it can offer him. Now unlike the energy showings you posted Backlash's Psi-whips generate psionic energy in nature, much like a combination of Psylocke's TK Katana and her Psy Knife. I can't remember the armor having any special resistance to psionic energy so if Backlash sends a psi-shock down one of his tendrils it should be effective despite the armor.

im trying to understand how these whips work. if they work by transferring energy from the whips to Black Panthers body i see no reason why his suit shouldnt dispel it like it does all other forms of energy.

and to be honest thats the only way i can see these whips working

Despite having Whips he doesn't usually impale or whip his opponents, rather he favors constriction as you can see in a number of the scans I've uploaded thus far. And while the armor has excellent blunt force absorption, I do seem to remember him being choked out in it before, something Slayton has no problem doing in a random encounter. Back to the fight, if Panther is within that 2-3 dozen feet hit range He has no problem avoiding and counter attacking at the same time as seen in his fight with The Savage Dragon, I can post more showings that show him doing this as well

Slayton doesn't carry any metal or use much of anything in the way of armor, so if he is tagged with those claws they aren't going to do any extra damage to him, for all intents and purposes, they're two inch razors on T'Challa's hands he can use a partial misting like he did here to open up Panther for a counterattack.

that will only work a couple of times... as it stands i believe the only damage you can do to T'Challa is the actual constricting of the whips and i dont see T'Challa getting caught in those for a long enough time for it to do anything.

Slayton isn't going to reveal his misting unless it offers him a chance of counterattacking or it serves a tactical purposes as he often uses it as his 'ace in the hole'

in his misting form Slayton cant do anything to him. Hes taken Physical Blows from Namor and the Hulk and his suit has protected him. T'Challa could practically stand still in the mist. and from what ive seen Slayton hasn't used his tendrils while Misting

  • Misting can offer Backlash further chances to avoid damage or reposition himself for an advantage.

not really as all it can do is allow him to dodge 3 blows from T'Challa and as soon as he reforms Panther will be on him... tbh Misting doesnt seem beneficial to him at all

  • I believe Backlash has a agility and general speed advantage.

again gonna have to disagree here, Black Panther has kept up with a sprinting Sabertooth and like i said he is much faster than Wolverine...

  • Psy shocking should allow Backlash to deal damage to Panther despite his armor.

the key to the whips is they are Psionic Energy... T'Challa suit is immune to Energy attacks and he himself is even immune to magic so i am having trouble believeing how Slaytons Energy attacks will affect him...the physical constrictions of the whips i can agree too but the energy is a bit of a stretch.

  • Constriction should prove effective despite the armor's blunt damage resistance.

i agree but given BPs vast technology getting him caught in the whips and then keeping him there will not be easy. As ive said he can walk on Walls and jump excessive heights thanks to his Vibranium sole boots

  • Range should favor Backlash in the 2-3 dozen foot range (on average) he's shown.

agreed but i dont see him getting a whip on T'challa before he closes the distance

  • As for technical h2h prowess I think Slayton has the advantage which I'm still going to claim by right of Slayton's opponents and his battle experience.

and im saying that by beating Iron Fist, Wolverine, Cap, and others i put him in the top 5 Martial Artists in the Marvel Universe (not earth which is where Wolverine belongs but the Universe) hes in the same league as Mister X and Gamora. another thing i notice is that Slayton seems to have no resistance the pressure points, which BP has extensive knowledge on

To further illustrate Slayton's tactical and fighting skill, here he is taking out StormWatch by himself.

that sounds like a challenge

this would be BP outsmarting Mephisto and then beating him. so in terms of tactics i would say BP is very much in the lead by feats so far

i can post the scan where he uses his tactics combined with prep to drain doom who is amped by serious vibranium if you want?

Some things

BP's daggers will get used here and you can only use misting so many times to dodge them...when they get used is irrelevant as Backlash isnt going to put Black Panther down before he uses it.

i know the argument that its Psionic Energy SEEMS thin but lets go over some of his past energy attacks

his suit has been tailored to resist all these energy attacks... it just sees like Psionic Energy being any different is somewhat questionable to me.

thats all for now... I just did this while in school so if it seems funny its because im so mentally wiped right now.

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Cool.

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#34  Edited By Sovereign91001

@kidman560

The h2h debate

normally id agree but Black Panther has schooled (repeatedly) Wolverine, someone who has had years and years and years of experience.

They've scuffled a few times, nothing I would call a 'schooling' though, the closest I could call a schooling was there fight in Cornell's Wolverine and then there were extenuating circumstances and Logan wasn't exactly what I'd say was in a healthy state of mind.

Contest Of Champions which had a Wolverine who was arguably a different character (his fighting skills hadn't been gone into detail on really).

In Uncanny X-Men T'Challa, dodged a claw slash and threw him.

In Black Panther 43 Wolverine grabbed T'Challa, pinned him and had him at claw point, until Panther's Consort pulled a gun on Logan.

As far as I can recall nothing I would call a schooling.

On the other hand Iron Fist actually has beaten/stalemated Black Panther and Wolverine stalemated Danny the last time they met in New Avengers. That being said, I wouldn't place him above either, certainly not up their with the upper tier; Gamora or Mantis whom I'd put in the top 5 of h2h in the entire Marvel U.

I'd also argue that Wolverine has technical showings on par or greater than what BP has shown.

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I'd say that IF slayton is more experienced i wouldnt place to much into it. Not to mention BP can read body language (not to the degree of Cassandra Cain but enough to read the tells of someone with Iron Fist, Wolverine, Bullseye, Daredevil, and even Black Panther himself) so Slayton's experiences won't be a determining factor here.

I don't think it's a question of if he's more experienced, he was fighiting long before T'Challa was even alive, long before Wolverine was alive.

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I don't think you can just discount his prior battle expreience.

he moves as fast as Sabertooth.

Believe it or not I don't feel that establishes him as faster than Logan, Wolverine has (for the last 10 or so years) been depicted just as fast, if not faster than Creed. Further more than this, In his fights with Captain America and Iron Fist, T'Challa hasn't shown greater combat speed than either, both are in the Wolverine tier of speed. But all this goes aside the initial point, T'Challa isn't in Peter's speed range, his speed feats outstrip him by a fair margin.

As for Backlash, he has a degree of super speed. He can strike very fast, so I don't think Panther has a combat speed lead on him.

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given BP's ability to change direction and dodge every projectile thrown by Lady Bullseye without even a scratch Slayton is gonna have to spam those tendrils... he wont hit BP the first 2 times and by then BP will be tossing Daggers (nerve deadening daggers)

He can easily avoid and use the whips, or attack with them and use them together, the other thing is Panther tanks, he doesn't dance around like Spider-Man especially with that armor and if he's confident in his armor (and he has no reason not to be), my thought is that he'll tank (like he did against Danny) and that'll be his problem. I'll get into those daggers below.

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that will only work a couple of times... as it stands i believe the only damage you can do to T'Challa is the actual constricting of the whips and i dont see T'Challa getting caught in those for a long enough time for it to do anything.

It doesn't take long to get shocked.

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It's pretty much contact/shock.

not really as all it can do is allow him to dodge 3 blows from T'Challa and as soon as he reforms Panther will be on him... tbh Misting doesnt seem beneficial to him at all

This I disagree with also, Misting lets him evade, on top of his already impressive evasion/maneuverability and three blows is more than enough, all he needs is to get those tendrils on Panther and it could be GG.

and im saying that by beating Iron Fist, Wolverine, Cap, and others i put him in the top 5 Martial Artists in the Marvel Universe (not earth which is where Wolverine belongs but the Universe) hes in the same league as Mister X and Gamora. another thing i notice is that Slayton seems to have no resistance the pressure points, which BP has extensive knowledge on

I think that's a bit of a heavy sell, Cap and T'Challa himself have described themselves as equals more or less, the widespread thought on that fight is it's 50/50. I'd say he lost the fight to Danny, or stalemated at the worst (he passed out) and as for Logan, well I went over that already. Wolverine has better h2h technical showings and by the fact that he knows alien martial arts, his skillset is larger. As for Gamora, she (like Mantis) is on another level above any of these people being mentioned. As for Mister X, he's inconsistent, but if you want to put him above T'Challa you kinda have to put Logan as well, in Thunderbolts he is stated as knowing alien martial arts as well as every style on Earth.

As for pressure points Slayton's tissue is quite a bit denser and more resilient than Terran. Here despite being weakened he tanks a blast from Helspont

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And here he survies being incinerated.

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Add to that his alien physiology and it's doubtful that pressure points designed to take out Human's would even work on him.

The Psionic Question

i know the argument that its Psionic Energy SEEMS thin but lets go over some of his past energy attacks, his suit has been tailored to resist all these energy attacks... it just sees like Psionic Energy being any different is somewhat questionable to me.

Psionic energy has been shown to be able to penetrate adamantium with no problem, which is probably the most resistant/resilient metal in the Marvel Universe. And this isn't something that can be written off as a one time occcurance either it has been shown effective

Time.

After.

Time.

I don't see why Vibranium would be any different, psionic energy doesn't behave the same as other energy sources so logically the resistances of materials of other energies shouldn't apply to it either, much like how real life materials that will shield against electricity (say rubber for instance) will not shield against gamma rays or X-rays. In and above this pretty much the only things that have been shown to block psionic energy to my knowledge in the Marvel Universe (other than certain artifacts) are things like the special metals in Magneto's helmet and the special ceramics in Fantomex's mask and even they can be and have been overloaded/circumvented.

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In any event I can't remember any instances when Vibranium has been shown to block psionic energy or even anything hinting that it's dampening properties extend to psionics. If Backlash can get his tendrils to touch T'Challa, he can shock him into unconciousness, regardless of his armor.

As far as I see, Backlash has two viable ways to win, constriction and choking out T'Challa (which is something he does in character) and or using psionic energy to shock him into unconsciousness.

Sorry it took so long and I'll toss it back to you.

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#36  Edited By kidman560

@sovereign91001:

They've scuffled a few times, nothing I would call a 'schooling' though, the closest I could call a schooling was there fight in Cornell's Wolverine and then there were extenuating circumstances and Logan wasn't exactly what I'd say was in a healthy state of mind.

Contest Of Champions which had a Wolverine who was arguably a different character (his fighting skills hadn't been gone into detail on really).

In Uncanny X-Men T'Challa, dodged a claw slash and threw him.

In Black Panther 43 Wolverine grabbed T'Challa, pinned him and had him at claw point, until Panther's Consort pulled a gun on Logan.

As far as I can recall nothing I would call a schooling.

On the other hand Iron Fist actually has beaten/stalemated Black Panther and Wolverine stalemated Danny the last time they met in New Avengers. That being said, I wouldn't place him above either, certainly not up their with the upper tier; Gamora or Mantis whom I'd put in the top 5 of h2h in the entire Marvel U.

I'd also argue that Wolverine has technical showings on par or greater than what BP has show

I assume when you mean Iron Fist has beaten Black Panther you are talking about

where Black Panther was holding back and Iron Fist was bloodlusted... hardly a low showing as each hit from Iron Fist was coming in with the force of a freight train.

and His Suit was still in one piece (tattered and torn to heck* but still in one piece)

so with that fight

1. Black Panther was holding back

2. Iron Fist was blood lusted (while still thinking clearly)

3. Black Panther still won i got done explaining this to @wyldsong yesterday

I don't think it's a question of if he's more experienced, he was fighiting long before T'Challa was even alive, long before Wolverine was alive.

so hes been fighting much longer... experience does not always equal skill.

Believe it or not I don't feel that establishes him as faster than Logan, Wolverine has (for the last 10 or so years) been depicted just as fast, if not faster than Creed. Further more than this, In his fights with Captain America and Iron Fist, T'Challa hasn't shown greater combat speed than either, both are in the Wolverine tier of speed. But all this goes aside the initial point, T'Challa isn't in Peter's speed range, his speed feats outstrip him by a fair margin.

As for Backlash, he has a degree of super speed. He can strike very fast, so I don't think Panther has a combat speed lead on him.

but Iron Mans speed would be much faster than these guys right? Black Panther is not in the same travel speed as Spider Man but neither is Wolverine, Iron Fist, or Captain America... Black Panther is however in the same reaction speed as Spider Man, as is Wolverine and Iron Fist

As for Backlash, he has a degree of super speed. He can strike very fast, so I don't think Panther has a combat speed lead on him.

that scan in no way shows striking speed

Deadpool has done something similar and deadpool is very much on the same speed level as Wolverine and Iron Fist, but is not on the same level as Black Panther or Spider Man

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as you can see Deadpool has no problem keeping pace with Iron Fist... are you saying therefore Deadpool > Black Panther then?

I think that's a bit of a heavy sell, Cap and T'Challa himself have described themselves as equals more or less, the widespread thought on that fight is it's 50/50. I'd say he lost the fight to Danny, or stalemated at the worst (he passed out) and as for Logan, well I went over that already. Wolverine has better h2h technical showings and by the fact that he knows alien martial arts, his skillset is larger. As for Gamora, she (like Mantis) is on another level above any of these people being mentioned. As for Mister X, he's inconsistent, but if you want to put him above T'Challa you kinda have to put Logan as well, in Thunderbolts he is stated as knowing alien martial arts as well as every style on Earth.

Mister X only looses to Logan because Logan goes feral... Logan realized he didnt have a snowballs chance in **** unless he went feral. Mister X, Gamora, Black Panther, Mantis, and

As for pressure points Slayton's tissue is quite a bit denser and more resilient than Terran. Here despite being weakened he tanks a blast from Helspont

Luke Cage has dense skin and so does the Hulk. Black Panther was able to use pressure points on Luke and Captain America was able to do them to the Hulk....

Add to that his alien physiology and it's doubtful that pressure points designed to take out Human's would even work on him.

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hes humanoid if his brain and nervous system is similar like human than chances are they will work fine... however daggers have worked on Alien races so just in case

Psionic energy has been shown to be able to penetrate adamantium with no problem, which is probably the most resistant/resilient metal in the Marvel Universe. And this isn't something that can be written off as a one time occcurance either it has been shown effective

all i see is Pisonic energy going through human skin first... and Adamantium has extremely poor durability against Energy Attacks... the Vibranium is on the outside of T'challa's body, unlike wolverines Adamanitum which only protects his bones and nothing else.

putting surfer in a headlock was PIS (and it was explained that Surfer was never in any danger later on) taking a blast from Stardust was not... so add Cosmic Energy to the lists of Energy Attacks Vibranium helps protect against

against Energy attacks Vibranium is your best bet for protection...

I don't see why Vibranium would be any different, psionic energy doesn't behave the same as other energy sources so logically the resistances of materials of other energies shouldn't apply to it either, much like how real life materials that will shield against electricity (say rubber for instance) will not shield against gamma rays or X-rays. In and above this pretty much the only things that have been shown to block psionic energy to my knowledge in the Marvel Universe (other than certain artifacts) are things like the special metals in Magneto's helmet and the special ceramics in Fantomex's mask and even they can be and have been overloaded/circumvented.

that would be true except Vibranium is resistent to every type of energy its gone up against... in each case you showed Psylocke (an omega level mutant) piercing someone who has terrible energy durability (his healing factor saves him more than his adamantium does against energy attacks) so we have a couple of things

1. Backlash's psionic energy has not been shown to be equal to that of Psylockes (in any way)

2. both examples your provided are not applicable here... especially considering adamantium is terrible against energy

3. the Vibranium is in armor form and on the outside... where as with wolverine the adamantium was only on his bones... on the inside of his body,

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as you can see here... all i see is it getting past a healing factor (which is what protects wolverine from Energy attacks not ... if it gets past the adamantium its still no applicable unless you mean to tell me that Backlash's whips are equal to that of an Omega Level Telepaths knife...

As far as I see, Backlash has two viable ways to win, constriction and choking out T'Challa (which is something he does in character) and or using psionic energy to shock him into unconsciousness.

i think ive gone into why neither would work...

his daggers can go intangible so that means blocking them with whips is a no go... he can mist sure but that also means bye bye whips. given Black Panthers ability to walk on walls and jump 20+meters in the air this will not work well. and if Backlash moves his whips do also. so by using his inexhaustible energy daggers he can keep BL from actually touching him... but given black panthers agility dodging them is not out of the question either

ive already said why Psionic Energy shouldnt work against Vibranium... but after a few daggers hit Back Lash it shouldnt matter that much...

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#37  Edited By Sovereign91001

@sovereign91001:

I assume when you mean Iron Fist has beaten Black Panther you are talking about

where Black Panther was holding back and Iron Fist was bloodlusted... hardly a low showing as each hit from Iron Fist was coming in with the force of a freight train.

I think that's a bit of hyperbole but in any case I wouldn't call it a win, he collapsed after the fight ended, at best it's a stalemate.

so hes been fighting much longer... experience does not always equal skill.

In this case it does, going toe to toe with top tier fighters and beating them convincingly is a testament to that.

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He was playing possum with an assassin and the second he got what he needed, he one shot her. Or how about this one, severly injured and with his powers not working right (his body had begun to reject the gen factor) he still kicks ass with nothing but a wrench and a screwdriver.

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but Iron Mans speed would be much faster than these guys right? Black Panther is not in the same travel speed as Spider Man but neither is Wolverine, Iron Fist, or Captain America... Black Panther is however in the same reaction speed as Spider Man, as is Wolverine and Iron Fist

Iron man's travel speed is faster,his blitzing feats are mainly him ramming into an opponent at high speed. Iron Fist, Captain America and Wolverine are all slower than Spider-Man, his feats outstrip all of them, Iron Fist couldn't touch Spider-Man when they fought until he suckered him. Danny has also admitted (about two years ago) that he has trouble with Peter. Now while his speed has increased since this fight, so has Spider-Man's.

Peter fanboyed against Cap during Civil War and held back (more than usual).

Wolverine has been outpaced by Peter in battle before and I'd say most would agree that he is probably near the top of street level reaction speeds.

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And the figts between Peter and Logan have been expounded upon by the various Spider experts of this site many a time, the majority consensus is that Peter is faster.

The fact is that T'Challa's speed feats, while impressive don't stack to Peter's other than him surprising him, Peter's dodged fire from 10 snipers at once, caught bullets twice (once while sick) dodged mach 3+ bullets, avoided bullets after they've been fired etc, etc.

that scan in no way shows striking speed

If Deadpool can hang with those people then he deserves to be mentioned in the same tier, again Panther can't put the moves on Steve and he is in the same league as Logan, they are all below Peter though. That was one strike for Deadpool, Slayton was using multiple hits denoted by the sound effect.

Luke Cage has dense skin and so does the Hulk. Black Panther was able to use pressure points on Luke and Captain America was able to do them to the Hulk....

While very impressive, they are all Terran.

hes humanoid if his brain and nervous system is similar like human than chances are they will work fine... however daggers have worked on Alien races so just in case

In my debate with Wolverine08 he used a scan showing that T'Challa knows Skrull nerve points having studied them before, so he would know where to strike a Skrull, he wouldn't know where to strike Backlash, he also detailed how human and Skrull nevre physiology differs, so even though they are humanoid their body layout is different. The same should apply to Human and Kherubim physiology.

I don't see why Vibranium would be any different, psionic energy doesn't behave the same as other energy sources so logically the resistances of materials of other energies shouldn't apply to it either, much like how real life materials that will shield against electricity (say rubber for instance) will not shield against gamma rays or X-rays. In and above this pretty much the only things that have been shown to block psionic energy to my knowledge in the Marvel Universe (other than certain artifacts) are things like the special metals in Magneto's helmet and the special ceramics in Fantomex's mask and even they can be and have been overloaded/circumvented.

that would be true except Vibranium is resistent to every type of energy its gone up against...

except it (thus far) has no feats against psionic energy.

in each case you showed Psylocke (an omega level mutant)

She's an Omega level telepath, not an Omega level mutant and she wasn't an Omega in any of those scans.

1. First one came from Uncanny X-Men 257 which was published in 1990 (she had manifested her Psy Knives for the first time in this issue)

2. Second one came From Psylocke 4 which was published in 2009

3. The third one which was supposed to be this (I messed up the linking):

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From Wolverine 125 which was published in 1998.

Betsy didn't become an Omega until 2011 in Uncanny X-Force 18-19. All those scans were chosen for a reason.

piercing someone who has terrible energy durability (his healing factor saves him more than his adamantium does against energy attacks) so we have a couple of things

Adamantium has amazing energy resistance, higher than Vibranium, it's stood ground zero at nuclear explosions unscathed, it's impossible to pierce it other than Anti-metal, or molecular manipulation. In New X-Men 149 Logan's skeleton survived a trip into the sun. I suspect that is also the reason why Panther made his daggers intangible against Ultron, the energy wouldn't pierce his adamantium hide.

Backlash's psionic energy has not been shown to be equal to that of Psylockes (in any way)

Actually they are very similar, which is why I chose Betsy specifically. She can manifest her's through knives, swords, flails, maces etc. He manifests his through his whips.

the Vibranium is in armor form and on the outside... where as with wolverine the adamantium was only on his bones... on the inside of his body, as you can see here... all i see is it getting past a healing factor (which is what protects wolverine from Energy attacks not ... if it gets past the adamantium its still no applicable unless you mean to tell me that Backlash's whips are equal to that of an Omega Level Telepaths knife...

I've dealt with the Omega thing already. As for the inside vs outside what we have here is an armored endoskeleton and an armored exo skeleton, in order to get to Logan's brain (which is where her knife affects her opponents) she has to go through his adamantium skeleton to reach it.

Her Psy knife affects the brain as is said in my scan above and has been stated numerous times in the X titles, I can dig out some more scans if you'd like. Also your scan isn't even of Psylocke, it's a Skrull impersonating her, that scan is from Uncanny X-Men 276, the real Psylocke was being held captive.

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In order to get to Panther, Backlash has to go through his outside armor to his inside, it's the same process in reverse.

his daggers can go intangible so that means blocking them with whips is a no go... he can mist sure but that also means bye bye whips. given Black Panthers ability to walk on walls and jump 20+meters in the air this will not work well. and if Backlash moves his whips do also.

Backlash's whips are controlled mentally he can move one way while they move another, which I've shown twice already, inluding in his fight when he's evading the Savage Dragon and fires at his ankle. He can use the whips while misting.

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So how about we start wrapping this thing down? I'd like one more post to close off any hanging threads, then you can take the final and we can go to votes.

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@kidman560 bet you thought I wouldn't post today huh? :P

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#39  Edited By kidman560

@sovereign91001: no actually you were an hour early than what I expected

I think that's a bit of hyperbole but in any case I wouldn't call it a win, he collapsed after the fight ended, at best it's a stalemate.

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bottom right. also notice energy dampening (something Adamantium does not have)

In this case it does, going toe to toe with top tier fighters and beating them convincingly is a testament to that.

I would attest that Black Panther has gone up against the top fighters and won also... heck hes even beaten Karnak.

Iron man's travel speed is faster,his blitzing feats are mainly him ramming into an opponent at high speed. Iron Fist, Captain America and Wolverine are allslower than Spider-Man, his feats outstrip all of them, Iron Fist couldn't touch Spider-Man when they fought until he suckered him. Danny has also admitted (about two years ago) that he has trouble with Peter. Now while his speed has increased since this fight, so has Spider-Man's.

But Black Panther has had no such trouble as above mentioned Iron Fist! this again proves that T'challa was holding back against Danny. If we take what you said it took a bloodlusted Iron Fist to beat a Black Panther that was holding back. hardly seems like they should be considered in the same speed level.

Peter fanboyed against Cap during Civil War and held back (more than usual).

Wolverine has been outpaced by Peter in battle before and I'd say most would agree that he is probably near the top of street level reaction speeds.

Actually in terms of Reaction Speeds i would put Spider Characters at the top, then Black Panther and thank you for mentioning this because lets take a look at

i feel bad because i feel like Gambit would have had a better chance against BP
i feel bad because i feel like Gambit would have had a better chance against BP

Black Panther more than matched Wolverine in fact he beat him... Wolverine remarked "woah... Fast!" Black Panther has always had a better reaction time than Wolverine.

The fact is that T'Challa's speed feats, while impressive don't stack to Peter's other than him surprising him, Peter's dodged fire from 10 snipers at once, caught bullets twice (once while sick) dodged mach 3+ bullets, avoided bullets after they've been fired etc, etc

Sniper fire? check

Faster than Invisible Woman? check

dodges gunshots point blank? check

moves faster than the eye can see? check

as for catching bullets... well

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Taskmaster has caught bullets also and he did it without webbing so i wouldnt place to much emphasis on it.

If Deadpool can hang with those people then he deserves to be mentioned in the same tier, again Panther can't put the moves on Steve and he is in the same league as Logan, they are all below Peter though. That was one strike for Deadpool, Slayton was using multiple hits denoted by the sound effect.

Deadpool is in the same league... but sound affects dont mean much

did Scarlet Spider only hit him once or not at all since there were no sound affects

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or

notice the complete lack of sound affects

no what determines striking speed is something like this

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and Black Panther has gotten much faster since these days. giving a time based strike or quite simply hitting someone before the other person can hit them... but a blur of punches doesnt mean squat because we have no idea how much time passed or the exact speed of the punches (we would Need one of those too) he were have a time comparison. he punches 3 times in the amount of time it takes for this guy to punch 1. therefore Black Panther has 3x the striking speed of a human.

except it (thus far) has no feats against psionic energy.

and Backlash hasnt gone up against Vibranium Daggers that can go intangible doesnt mean i think that these daggers will hit him when he is misting. if we held that to be true this fight would be over before it begins. Psionic Energy has never really met Energy Dampening Material like Vibranium that doesnt mean we can assume it works

1. First one came from Uncanny X-Men 257 which was published in 1990 (she had manifested her Psy Knives for the first time in this issue)

2. Second one came From Psylocke 4 which was published in 2009

3. The third one which was supposed to be this (I messed up the linking):

I would note that those are all against Wolverine... also Adamantium does not have the energy dampening that Vibranium has making Vibranium a better material to use against energy attacks.

Adamantium has amazing energy resistance, higher than Vibranium, it's stood ground zero at nuclear explosions unscathed, it's impossible to pierce it other than Anti-metal, or molecular manipulation. In New X-Men 149 Logan's skeleton survived a trip into the sun. I suspect that is also the reason why Panther made his daggers intangible against Ultron, the energy wouldn't pierce his adamantium hide.

Another Reason why the Adamanitum Feats are not Applicable here is because Wolverine Bones are the only thing covered and it is quite easy to pierce his skin. Black Panthers energy dampening Vibranium is on the outside of his body. Adamantium being a metal is a very good conductor of energy... it transfers energy very well, it doesnt do much for absorbing it or dampening it.

Let me ask you something would Wolverine have been able to take those punches from Iron Fist? im guessing no. why? because Adamantium doesnt absorb any of the energy it just transfers it... thats how The Thing, The Hulk and Even Iron Fist would be able to knock out Wolverine. despite Wolverine having Adamantium.

Saying Psionic Energy works on a substance with almost nothing in common with Vibranium is like me saying because Backlash is humanoid, human pressure points would work on him. What? no that makes no sense... and youre right it wouldnt work.

Im ready to wrap things down... just in time for 3 other CaVs and a tourney...