CaV Kidman560 vs Lvenger

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kidman560

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#1  Edited By kidman560

Bricks clash 1 on 1 again

Kidman560

Hercules

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Pre CW of course

Lvenger

Red Hulk

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Da Rules

1. Morals on

2. Win by Death/Incap/KO

3.Invisible Walls keep BFR from happening... if possible.

4. battlers start 50 Meters apart

5. I am allowed to make Jeff Loeb jokes throughout the debate (:P)

Battlefield

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anything im missing?

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kidman560

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Cool

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Lvenger

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@kidman560:

Loading Video...

But if you're allowed to use Loeb jokes, I'm also allowed to use gay Hercules jokes too :P And on the subject of Loeb, whilst I won't use the dumb moments like his stupid victory over Thor and the absurdity of him beating Silver Surfer, Terrax, The Grandmaster etc but I will use some of Loeb's showings if you don't mind.

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kidman560

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@lvenger of course i thought you were gonna make those anyways... i actually dont mind Rulk beating Thor it was everything after that... but yeah use whatever showings you want.

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Lvenger

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@kidman560: I'm curious, what showings after that are you referring to?

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Whirlwind_33

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looks good tag me

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kidman560

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@lvenger as you said the beating of Silver Surfer (idc if he was young or not thats bullcrap), The Watcher (which i actually think was before Thor IIRC), and then actually challenging Galactus...

it is my firm belief that Loeb was gonna have Rulk beat Galactus absorb the Tribunal and become TOAA but Stan Lee called him and said "listen here b*tch, get this crap straight before i do it for you."

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Lvenger

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@kidman560: Hah that really was too much. I wouldn't be worth my salt on the battle forums if I used that showing in all good faith :P

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TimeLordScience

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This looks neat.

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Bezza

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#11  Edited By Bezza
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My Rulk says, "Go Lvenger, Go..." !!

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BeaconofStrength

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Tag me.

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kidman560

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#13  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger sorry i just finished my Marvel Now! Fantastic Four respect thread

Hercules

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look everyone adores him

theres strong and then there is hercules strong.

like towing the island of Manhattan

lifting up godzilla look alikes

and lifting up the weight of the world

lets not forget the amazing durability of Hercules to take on the Destroyer armor. added strength feat as knocking the armor down is a feat very few can claim

this would be Hercules stalemating Thor, who was not holding back. impressive but make no mistake in H2H there is a clear victor

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Hercules is better

as for Speed i wouldnt worry to much about it. Hercules has tagged and humiliated (yes i skipped a few in between the scans but these are the important ones) Sentry. COUGH COUGH* nut-shot COUGH COUGH

Hercules has a history with Hulks. The only time they ever fought on even terms was in this case and its safe to say he had this battle under control... he was fine enough to fix the train afterwords

any other time Herc and Hulk have met Herc was either depowered or Hulk was WWH+ (also in the WWH instance Hercules wasnt even trying to fight back)

Hulks Flaming Temper

yeah yeah good pun huh? Rulk gets hotter as he gets Angrier right? well that shouldnt be a problem

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Firelords flames are ineffective against hercules.

i await your opener

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AllStarSuperman

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#14  Edited By AllStarSuperman

Tag for votes

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Lvenger

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#17  Edited By Lvenger

@kidman560: Neat opener Kid, allow me to return the favour with my rebuttal detailing Red Hulk's capabilities as a brick, one of the most powerful members of the Hulk family and why General Thaddeus Ross has a good chance of knocking Hercules' block off. Let's begin with my Round 1 post.

Red Hulk

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First, I'll post an outline of his powers courtesy of TheAcidSkull's Red Hulk respect thread for general reading and understanding of his powers.

As Red Hulk/Rulk

Superhuman Berserker Strength and Mega Heat Generation

In Red Hulk form, Ross displays an incredible amount of strength, going as far as even being stronger in base force than the Savage Hulk (although the latter would eventually overpower the former due to his rage factor). As with The Hulk, Red Hulk can lift with incredible ease more than 100 metric tons and have a strength threshold far beyond what has been currently seen, although his strength is hampered by his heat generation and lack of a similar strength building mechanism as his green ancestor.

While as the Green Hulk can build upon his base strength through gamma generation in his cellular structure, Red Hulk has, so far, been seen as being unable to perform a similar feat, most likely due to the complex radioactive and cosmic cocktail that helped create him in the first place. However, he did display prominently an ability to forcibly drain the energy out of an enemy though physical contact (or even close proximity to his body) and use it to magnify his already huge power level. Although this ability has seemingly been short-circuited in an attempt to drain the Omegex, it is unclear whether he still retains the increased power level from his energy vampirism or if it was a temporary injection of force.

A significant downside that Red Hulk has compared to the green Hulk is that his body cannot support the intense heat he generates if his temper flares out of control. Unlike most creatures that would normally just sweat it out, the heat is so intense that every liquid would most likely evaporate instantaneously, essentially baking Red Hulk from the inside-out. This in turn makes him very dizzy, lose conscious control of his body and cause intense pain if allowed to increase further.

He is also shown to have a severe reaction to Negative Energy when absorbed, causing intense pain beyond the threshold for a hulk and possibly generate an allergic reaction within his physiognomy. He is also weak to mental attack, mainly because his rage does not envelop his mind entirely like it does when the Hulk goes into rage mode. But with the help of a mental helmet to block psychic attack, this problem hasn't been much of a problem lately (outside of a brief skirmish with Emma Frost during the Avengers vs. X-men arc.)

Self Sustenance

Red Hulk can function for extended periods within intake of food, oxygen and water. However, it is seen that he oftentimes eats whole carcasses of cooked animals (ex. deer, cows etc.) and might signify an energy balance factor seen primarily in shrew-like animals, where to maintain an extremely high body temperature and subsequent physical energy, the body requires immense intake of protein. However, as he is not seen to eat in bulk often, it is unsure whether this is the case or not for Red Hulk, or even the Green Hulk for that matter.

Regeneration and Possible "Immortality"

As with the Green Hulk, Red Hulk possesses an incredibly fast hearing factor. However, while his counterpart is able to regenerate more and more with anger, this isn't possible for Rulk as his strength levels cannot increase in rage. This does not mean that he has a less potent healing factor. It just means that it cannot be accelerated as fast as that of The Incredible Hulk.

He is also seen to have a weakness for bladed objects, but this may be due to the fact that Red Hulk is attacked more often with stakes and swords than his counter-part, who often deals more in physical or energy attacks. Despite these very minor differences, Red Hulk can still repair wounds normally permanently debilitating for humans (ex. regenerate new eyes after having them cut open by Wolverine's claws). This regeneration also helps to keep Red Hulk in a semi-permanent mature state.

This means that Red Hulk cannot physically age as a standard human can. For him to start resembling someone of old age, he's have to be in hulk form permanently for over a century. His body continually regenerates damaged tissue, meaning he is immune to most known diseases, including the Techno-organic Virus (of which he managed to "sweat out" by increasing his body temperature to destroy the virus.) It is also possible that this regeneration has also caused him to reverse the aging process, essentially making himself physically younger than his real age intends. If Red Hulk does end up surviving all the threats on his person, there is the possibility that he will remain alive for essentially eternity.

Durability

Red Hulk has an incredibly durable body, and has physically been able to withstand a direct blow to the face with Thor's hammer Mjolinir, only to laugh it off with only an "X" caved into his face. He has also taken on multiple super-humans at one time, effectively shaking them off and decisively beating them multiple times (ex. The Avengers prior to him joining and the Lady Liberators formed under a vengeful She-Hulk wanting payback for an earlier beating.) Even blows from The Hulk do little to slow down Red Hulk, at least until Hulk's strength builds enough to match that of Red Hulk.

His skin and muscle, being as thick and dense as it is, allows for Rulk to survive deep sea depth equal to those seen in the Marianas Trench with no ill physical effects outside of the need for oxygen. He can also withstand direct contact with molten lava and can operate in a fiery environment with little worry of external damage. His body is tough enough to survive the conditions of space itself, at one point not only jumping to the moon while dragging Thor behind him, but also leaping back to Earth and surviving unscathed a deep crater-forming impact.

Stamina

Rulk has an almost unending supply of stamina, able to theoretically fight for days on end without stopping. He can also force himself to stay awake for several months, functioning solely of adrenaline and lingering stamina. He can also recuperate immensely quickly lost stamina; he'd be able to jump back into the fray of battle, even after being impaled, gutted etc.

Energy absorption

Rulk cannot, as stated above, build strength the same way as the Incredible Hulk can. However, he was able to build his immense strength levels further by draining power from enemies and applying it to his own force. Similarly to the way Rogue's absorption abilities work, except that a brush of the skin, unless intentional, does not harm unintended victims and he cannot gain never before seen abilities as she can.

Red Hulk can also release the stored collected energy in his body all at once in an fire-like way, knocking back enemies as well as burning them. He can also, at times, light himself on fire with this same energy when in a rage, seemingly breathing fire as he snarls animalistically at his enemies.

Now onto your post

@kidman560 said:

theres strong and then there is hercules strong.

like towing the island of Manhattan

lifting up godzilla look alikes

and lifting up the weight of the world

Hercules is better

You've offered some nice strength feats here but physical strength isn't everything in a battle of bricks. It probably isn't important as this next aspect I'm about to delve into, namely striking power. After all, a character with a brick powerset gets by based on how hard they punch things and Rulk has some top notch striking power feats to his name. Let me show you what I mean

I'll begin with his initial appearance against Abomination. As you probably know, Blonsky is the definitive arch nemesis of the Hulk and was originally created to be twice as strong as The Hulk. Later, Abomination was boosted to possessing Class 200 superhuman strength in comparison to Savage Hulk's Class 100 strength at base. He's always forced Hulk into devastating and destructive battles and Hulk's main way of winning against this fearsome foe has been to get even angrier to boost his strength to fight Blonsky. Although Hulk usually wins their fights, it takes a lot of effort on Hulk's part. So how well does Ross do against Blonsky?

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He outright stomps him. A Class 200 brick goes down to the merciless and brutal striking power at Rulk's disposal. The fight is also noted to have practically levelled the entire village and left only one survivor given the Earth shaking shockwaves of Rulk's blows. This put Emil down for the count and left him open to being gunned down by Ross. So that's a good start to Rulk's striking power.

Next, we have an off panel fight Rulk had against She Hulk. Now I know this is an off panel fight but the final results of it are crystal clear. Jennifer is another victim of Rulk's early rampages. One of She Hulk's latest feats caps her off as a Class 80 brick and although I'm not wholly convinced by the proponents of this argument, some claim Jen is beyond a Class 100 superhuman. If so, this makes Rulk's domination of her all the more notable. But the most striking thing about this off panel fight is that Rulk still has plenty of energy to take down his next target. And who is that?

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Only Iron Man, that's who. After Tony blasts him with his Uni Beam (which Rulk tanks just fine), Tony flies upwards to get some respite and to issue some orders. Big mistake though because Rulk proceeds to one shot him using a fighter jet like a giant club.

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Here, we're talking about another Class 100 getting one shotted by Rulk. Iron Man's Extremis armour has tanked a nuke point blank without any forcefields and it's considered to be one of the most powerful standard Iron Man armours after Bleeding Edge. Furthermore, a feat you might be familiar with from your other current CAV is that previous older versions of the Iron Man armour have tanked the force of The Mandarin's impact ring which "shakes the mountains" with its power and is felt on seismographs in California, 7 thousand miles east of where the fight was taking place.

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Thus, this makes for a solid opener in regards to the striking power Rulk is packing in his attacks. It's safe to say he's capable of putting the hurt on Hercules with striking feats like this. And I haven't even gotten to some of his better ones yet.

@kidman560 said:

lets not forget the amazing durability of Hercules to take on the Destroyer armor. added strength feat as knocking the armor down is a feat very few can claim

That is an impressive durability feat to be certain but it cannot be generalised as the absolute standard to which Hercules' blunt force durability adheres to. Hercules has been hurt and damaged by far less in the striking power department and Rulk possesses the necessary feats to justify the argument that he can inflict the necessary damage upon Hercules. But since we're on the subject of durability, I'll post the damage Rulk receives from another being who has fought and toppled the Destroyer on numerous occasions. I am of course referring to Thor, God of Thunder.

You can see Rulk getting quite the beatdown in this fight. Hammer throws, hammer strikes, hammer strikes amped by lightning, the full works. Thor was obviously ticked off here given the animosity between Rulk and himself so decided to give Ross a piece of his mind. Or hammer in all honesty. Ross does an impressive job tanking some heavy shots from Thor and is actually trying to reason with Thor, meaning that he leaves himself open to taking more hits. He also tanks hits from Thor during their second fight.

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Granted, Thor would definitely win over Rulk and was overpowering him here but it's a testament to how much punishment Rulk can take. Given that Thor has at least equal if not superior physicals to Hercules and wields an Uru hammer forged in the core of a star which is laos enchanted by Odin, I think Rulk's durability showings against Thor demonstrate that he can handle Hercules' strikes with less problems given that he's tanked harder blows from stronger beings and more durable weapons.

Your use of this one scan is woefully lacking in acknowledging the full context of what was going in this fight. For one, Thor wasn't using his all powerful hammer so he lacked the versatility he normally had. And secondly, though the fight may have ended in a stalemate, Thor got in a good amount of blows against Hercules in this fight

Like how he draws blood from Hercules and puts him on his back with his first two blows of the fight

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Or how he headbutts Hercules to release him from his grip and then tosses him like a ragdoll

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What about when he grabs Hercules and twirls him like a rodeo rope before treating him to a meeting with the ground?

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And I guess you forgot the events that happened just after your scan was posted, namely Thor calling down a bolt of lightning which made Hercules yell out in pain

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Next, since you've provided a scan of Hercules grappling Thor, I'll raise the stakes with the showing of Rulk arm barring Savage Hulk and then breaking his arm

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Thirdly, Hercules' combat style isn't exactly as finessed as other known martial artists in comic books. He's a brawling brute first and foremost so any pretense of him possessing a hand to hand style edge is tenuous at best. Still, even if Hercules possesses a combat skill edge, Rulk is by far the much more tactical combatant. Ross has trained in the US military for years and is a skilled tactician and strategist. He was giving plenty of strategic instructions during AvX alongside Captain America and you can see the military style of commands he's giving here.

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Rulk knows how to fight smart and put some limited strategy into how he fights. This is more than can be said for the blundering fisticuffs Hercules is used to. As well as fighting a physically tough foe, he's also facing a decently smart fighter who can fight to win by any means necessary.

@kidman560 said:

as for Speed i wouldnt worry to much about it. Hercules has tagged and humiliated (yes i skipped a few in between the scans but these are the important ones) Sentry. COUGH COUGH* nut-shot COUGH COUGH

I'm not certain why you've brought speed into this fight since neither combatants are likely to be darting around and speed blitzing each other. This'll be a slow, bone crunching brawl until its finish with fists, feet and objects likely to fly. But I'll engage with this point nonetheless. It's sheer folly to use cherry picked scans from Hercules' encounter with Sentry to justify the faulty conclusion that he has superior reactionary and combat speed to Rulk. For one, Sentry was definitely holding back and always trying to talk Herc down whereas Hercules had way less restraint in his attacks. And secondly, Sentry's speed was not written too well here. Given the Sentry's own speed feats, it's a case where this showing is an exception rather than the regular rule

He can easily catch bullets after they're fired from point blank range

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He's repaired a tower in moments with Ms Marvel, who can move pretty fast herself, commenting on how fast Sentry is moving

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Plus Bob was capable of speedblitzing Morgana Le Faye and tearing her head off before she could even react. The same could easily have happened to Hercules if Bob was feeling Voidish in behaviour.

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Clearly, your point is based on fallacious reasoning and a misrepresented depiction of The Sentry's speed. Besides, he doesn't use it in combat nearly as well as other powerhouses like Superman or Wonder Woman so Hercules tagging him isn't so great anyway.

@kidman560 said:

Hercules has a history with Hulks. The only time they ever fought on even terms was in this case and its safe to say he had this battle under control... he was fine enough to fix the train afterwords

any other time Herc and Hulk have met Herc was either depowered or Hulk was WWH+ (also in the WWH instance Hercules wasnt even trying to fight back)

Incorrect. There's another time Hercules and Hulk have fought under fair conditions and it's happened in recent years. I don't know why you've overlooked this encounter but perhaps you haven't heard of the Hulk vs Hercules: When Titans Collide one shot?

It's a short but sweet fight where Hercules pile drivers Hulk off Olympus with the force, according to the narrator (Amadeus Cho, one of the smartest people in the Marvel Universe) of a jumbo jet flying into a mountain at top speed. Herc then proceeds to blitz Hulk yet the Green Goliath tanks both these attacks, shrugs him off by flexing his muscles and delivers a devastating thunderclap to Hercules who barely reacts to Hulk's follow up attack. Although things were left at the usual stalemate, Hulk tanked Hercules' attacks far better than Hercules did to Hulk's thunderclap. Whilst Hercules can go several rounds with Hulk, he hasn't been able to conclusively overpower him. As for Red Hulk's track record against Savage Hulk, I'll get to that in my next reply.

@kidman560 said:

Hulks Flaming Temper

yeah yeah good pun huh? Rulk gets hotter as he gets Angrier right? well that shouldnt be a problem

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Firelords flames are ineffective against hercules.

i await your opener

From what I've researched on Rulk, his heat generation involves giving off so much radiation that he's capable of scorching the Earth.

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It should also be noted that this energy generation Rulk was giving off was capable of putting the hurt on Hulk in their second fight. Wish I could locate all the scans but in this one you can see Rulk's energy giving Hulk trouble alongside the punches he's throwing.

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With Hercules, Rulk's formidable physical might is merely complemented by the energy projection to boot offering him more ways to gain victory in this battle.

Conclusion

  • Although Hercules might have better physical strength feats, Rulk's striking power and durability feats appear to be superior to Hercules' thus far and grant him a critical advantage in the straight up brawl he'll be having with the demigod.
  • Additionally, Rulk is more tactical than Hercules which could lead to him using unorthodox methods to gain an advantage in their battle.
  • Lastly, Rulk's energy projection offers another wrinke through which to harm Hercules and bring him down.

Your move Kid.

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Lvenger

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Oh thank goodness, I thought I'd lost this post since my computer was playing up and practically crashed upon trying to load this screen but I'm glad this isn't the case. I just need to find the Hulk vs Hercules: When Titans Collide scans and my first response will be complete.

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kidman560

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#19  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger: I feel like you misinterpreted some of my posts... im gonna try to rectify that here.

You've offered some nice strength feats here but physical strength isn't everything in a battle of bricks. It probably isn't important as this next aspect I'm about to delve into, namely striking power. After all, a character with a brick powerset gets by based on how hard they punch things and Rulk has some top notch striking power feats to his name. Let me show you what I mean

his striking power toppled the Destroyer Armor, Hes gone toe to toe with the Hulk.

You've offered some nice strength feats here but physical strength isn't everything in a battle of bricks. It probably isn't important as this next aspect I'm about to delve into, namely striking power. After all, a character with a brick powerset gets by based on how hard they punch things and Rulk has some top notch striking power feats to his name. Let me show you what I mean

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While admit striking Blonsky like so is impressive. Red She Hulk (who you admited wouldnt do well against Colossus) has done the same. not the best striking feat ive seen.

That is an impressive durability feat to be certain but it cannot be generalised as the absolute standard to which Hercules' blunt force durability adheres to. Hercules has been hurt and damaged by far less in the striking power department and Rulk possesses the necessary feats to justify the argument that he can inflict the necessary damage upon Hercules. But since we're on the subject of durability, I'll post the damage Rulk receives from another being who has fought and toppled the Destroyer on numerous occasions. I am of course referring to Thor, God of Thunder.

Sure Rulk can harm Hercules. to say he couldnt would be folly. but Hercules posses the necessary durability and strength to pummel someone who one shot KO'ed Thor Wonder Man is of course who i am referring to

end and beginning

if i remember correctly this was mostly off panel and an argument could be made that Wonder Man wasnt even fighting back... however something tells me that if a plane was about to get dropped on me id try to fight back. and you can see that Wonder Man hardly looks fit to fight anyways.

Granted, Thor would definitely win over Rulk and was overpowering him here but it's a testament to how much punishment Rulk can take. Given that Thor has at least equal stats and wields an Uru hammer forged in the core of a star and is enchanted by Odin, I think he can handle Hercules' strikes with less problems given that he's tanked harder blows from stronger beings and more durable weapons

I wouldnt be so sure to say that. Hercules bare hand strikes are much stronger than Thors... (see Wonder Man) its Mijonir that evens the playing field.

Your use of this one scan is woefully lacking in acknowledging the full context of what was going in this fight. For one, Thor wasn't using his all powerful hammer so he lacked the versatility he normally had. And secondly, though the fight may have ended in a stalemate, Thor got in a good amount of blows against Hercules in this fight

I think you misinterpreted what i was saying. I was saying that if Thor and Hercules were to meat in H2H no Mijonir or other powers, then Hercules would win as he is slightly better in H2H. i wasnt saying that Hercules straight up trounces Thor no matter what. but claiming Thor could beat Hercules without Mijonir or other abilities would be incorrect.

Thirdly, Hercules' combat style isn't exactly as finessed as other known martial artists in comic books. He's a brawling brute first and foremost so any pretense of him possessing a hand to hand style edge is tenuous at best. Still, even if Hercules possesses a combat skill edge, Rulk is by far the much more tactical combatant. Ross has trained in the US military for years and is a skilled tactician and strategist. He was giving plenty of strategic instructions during AvX alongside Captain America and you can see the military style of commands he's giving here.

sorry these are out of order but Hercules demonstrates he has the necessary skill and agility to put Hulk in Headlocks. meanwhile Ross maybe smart but he has no H2H skills that he has shown. Hercules will win in the skill department

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Hercules demonstrates his "Tactical Genius" here by beating the "Un-winnable" game :P. (plz dont take this one serious... its simply a joke about Rulk being smarter than Hercules... which tactically he is)

I'm not certain why you've brought speed into this fight since neither combatants are likely to be darting around and speed blitzing each other. This'll be a slow, bone crunching brawl until its finish with fists, feet and objects likely to fly. But I'll engage with this point nonetheless. It's sheer folly to use cherry picked scans from Hercules' encounter with Sentry to justify the faulty conclusion that he has superior reactionary and combat speed to Rulk. For one, Sentry was definitely holding back and always trying to talk Herc down whereas Hercules had way less restraint in his attacks. And secondly, Sentry's speed was not written too well here. Given the Sentry's own speed feats, it's a case where tis showing is an exception rather than the regular rule

I wanted to point out that Hercules is capable of keeping up with Rulk. since as youve said Speed Blitz is not happening. I know that Sentrys speed was not being used well here I am an avid Sentry fan. what i wanted to point out that Hercules also took on Venom someone of Spider Man lvl speed. I was in no way insinuating that Hercules is leagues above Speed compared to Rulk.

I also understand that Hulks move faster than they appear. i wanted to make sure that i pointed out Hercules should be able to keep up with him nothing more.

From what I've researched on Rulk, his heat generation involves giving off so much radiation that he's capable of scorching the Earth.

Firelords Fire seemed to pretty vaporize everything behind Hercules... not sure what youre getting at here. Hercules has a distinct resistance to extreme temperatures.

With Hercules, Rulk's formidable physical might is merely complemented by the energy projection to boot offering him more ways to gain victory in this battle.

woah now... Energy Projection? you mean the Heat he gives off, so they give his punches a boost. his heat wont be enough to put Hercules down here. as it was stated A-bom was just saying that Hulk was getting madder? not killing him. maybe hurting him but ive already conceded that Rulk could hurt Hercules...

Hercules starts off Leagues about Hulk in strength (once Hulk gets Angrier that changes) Ross better be pulling off some brilliant tactical stuff other wise i dont see him beating the Physically Superior Hercules.

Rulk is going to have to work for every blow he lands on Hercules. i just want to point out anther thing... take it as you will but

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lol pimslaps wolverine. Hercules is getting Annoyed you wouldnt like Hercules when hes annoyed.

Lets get back to the Serious Now

Seriously these guys are fairly even in Physical Stats... though from what i can tell Hercules seems to be slightly more durable and stronger. :P

Hercules has the better skill here. i mean this guy lives for battle

3000 years of experience
3000 years of experience

I dont think you'll be able to make the case of Rulk being more skilled here.

as for Ross' Tactical skills while i concede they are greater than that of hercules they aren't, or at least have not been shown to be, on the same level of Captain America or Black Panther. I dont think they give him a huge advantage here.

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Really cool debate :)

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Lvenger

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@kidman560: Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about the debate. I've even got most of my scans saved and ideas in mind for my second post already. I'll get it done tomorrow morning.

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@lvenger youre talking to a very patient man. take 2 days if you need to. I'm the guy who waited for god_spawn to heal from 2 broken legs (and ICU) to have his butt kicked. its all good

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#23  Edited By Lvenger

@kidman560: All right, here's my Round 2 post then. Let's carry on with the debate.

Round 2

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@kidman560 said:

his striking power toppled the Destroyer Armor, Hes gone toe to toe with the Hulk.

Yes indeed he has but again I say, so what? Rulk may not have toppled the Destroyer armour but he's gone toe to toe with the Hulk too and has a better track record against him than Hercules does

Read from right to left.

That's not only Rulk matching Hulk in this fight and tanking a spew of blows from the Green Giant, he's also dishing out plenty of damage and even going so far as to overpower and break Hulk's arm. When has Hercules ever accomplished a feat like that in his fights against Hulk? Even in fair fights, Hercules has been at a severe disadvantage in contrast to Hulk. So if your argument is that Hercules has matched Hulk meaning he possesses too much might for Rulk, I think these showings contradict that claim easily.

@kidman560 said:

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While admit striking Blonsky like so is impressive. Red She Hulk (who you admited wouldnt do well against Colossus) has done the same. not the best striking feat ive seen.

I feel like some context is missing from this part of your post. For one, that's Chaos War Abomination and he was fighting the individual members of the Hulk family with ease, even overpowering the Green Scar. Secondly, he later on tanked blows from the entire Hulk family ganging up on him

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Third of all, you overlook the crucial importance of Rulk's feat against Abomination. Blonsky has always given Hulk trouble in the past forcing Hulk to become even angrier to overpower his foe. Yet Rulk mercilessly beats Blonsky to a pulp, even cracking his skull. To accomplish that against one of the Hulk's most powerful enemies is an impressive feat.

@kidman560 said:

Sure Rulk can harm Hercules. to say he couldnt would be folly. but Hercules posses the necessary durability and strength to pummel someone who one shot KO'ed Thor Wonder Man is of course who i am referring to

end and beginning

if i remember correctly this was mostly off panel and an argument could be made that Wonder Man wasnt even fighting back... however something tells me that if a plane was about to get dropped on me id try to fight back. and you can see that Wonder Man hardly looks fit to fight anyways.

Again, your statement doesn't match what has actually happened between Wonder Man and Thor. If we look at the original source material where this supposedly happened, we can verify what actually happened.

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Not only was it a cheap shot but it's clearly stated that "not even such a blow can harm the mighty immortal." Itonly threw him off balance into the hole where he could be trapped. And to my knowledge, Wonder Man hasn't one shotted Thor on any other occasion. Furthermore, I've located a showing with a mind controlled Wonder Man fighting the Thing where Ben states that although he doesn't exactly relish fighting Wonder Man, he does explicitly state that he's tougher than Wonder Man is.

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Although Wonder Man does go down far too quickly due to his mind control affecting his fighting ability, the results do speak for themselves. Thing does seem sure of himself that he's capable of overpowering Wonder Man. Which isn't too surprising given his steady increases in strength over time. And bringing things back to Red Hulk, he tanked a beating from Thing

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Oh and here's the best part, all the while being weakened by Negative Zone radiation. This is explicitly stated in the issue as Rulk feels the Negative Zone draining him as well as being mentioned in the general bio I gave to you. Whilst Comicvine bios may not be pitch perfect, they're at least more reliable than Marvel Wiki database's ones. Thus, it seems perfectly clear that Rulk is more than able to tank Hercules' blows given what he's faced whilst weakened.

@kidman560 said:

I wouldnt be so sure to say that. Hercules bare hand strikes are much stronger than Thors... (see Wonder Man) its Mijonir that evens the playing field.

Likewise, I wouldn't be too sure of your statement either. Thor has some very good striking feats even without Mjolnir

He's punted an undead Asgardian into orbit with ease

One shotted a wet Namor in the rain whose strength would be at Class 100 at least in this point

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And Thor's repeated blows on Red Norvell were wrecking Asgard, generating large shockwaves and even deafened Heimdall with their sound

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Blows like these would be a certain threat to Rulk but thus far, you haven't shown Hercules' striking power being on Rulk's calibre, let alone Thor's calibre yet.

@kidman560 said:

I think you misinterpreted what i was saying. I was saying that if Thor and Hercules were to meat in H2H no Mijonir or other powers, then Hercules would win as he is slightly better in H2H. i wasnt saying that Hercules straight up trounces Thor no matter what. but claiming Thor could beat Hercules without Mijonir or other abilities would be incorrect.

That remains to be seen. For one, Thor's own striking power is nothing to be schoffed at. Secondly, it's a faulty claim to generalise Hercules' hand to hand performance to him being able to beat Rulk. And thirdly it implies that Rulk's striking power isn't up to overpowering Hercules which isn't the strongest counter to say the least

Rulk's one shotted a giant comment that Banner stated was a threat to the Earth

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He overpowered an early team of The Lady Liberators with ease which included She Hulk (who's in Class 80-100) and Valkyrie (a Class 50 superhuman)

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And he even put Colossonaut on the back foot which triggered his transformation into his more powerful form with his striking power (other scans to be included in next post)

And Colossus was no pushover as the Avatar of Cyttorak given that he stalemated Kuurth and easily beat The Thing. More proof that Hercules will be left stinging to say the least from just Rulk's punches.

@kidman560 said:

sorry these are out of order but Hercules demonstrates he has the necessary skill and agility to put Hulk in Headlocks. meanwhile Ross maybe smart but he has no H2H skills that he has shown. Hercules will win in the skill department

Even if Hercules is more skilled, he doesn't really utilise this skill in combat on a consistent basis. The one showing, whilst clearly impressive here, isn't always how Hercules fights a Hulk class brick. You have to account for Hercules' propensity to brawl to boot. Still, even with a so called hand to hand advantage, Rulk's superior striking power, durability and tactical mindset is more than enough to compensate for this one advantage Hercules has. Plus Rulk is pretty coordinated himself. Here he leaps from one building, hanging on to time his next jump to a ship and does so with ease and solid coordination.

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@kidman560 said:

woah now... Energy Projection? you mean the Heat he gives off, so they give his punches a boost. his heat wont be enough to put Hercules down here. as it was stated A-bom was just saying that Hulk was getting madder? not killing him. maybe hurting him but ive already conceded that Rulk could hurt Hercules...

Hercules starts off Leagues about Hulk in strength (once Hulk gets Angrier that changes) Ross better be pulling off some brilliant tactical stuff other wise i dont see him beating the Physically Superior Hercules.

Rulk is going to have to work for every blow he lands on Hercules. i just want to point out anther thing... take it as you will but

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lol pimslaps wolverine. Hercules is getting Annoyed you wouldnt like Hercules when hes annoyed.

Yeah it is kinda energy projection. I have another feat I'll show later but for now I'll focus on this point. Whilst Rulk's heat might not be enough to put Hercules down by itself, the fact it'll be bolstered by some serious striking power means Rulk has more ways than one to hurt Hercules in this brawl.

Really? Hercules starts off way stronger than Rulk? I've shown him take on and overpower Savage Hulk and go toe to toe with The Thing all whilst either not being too mad or weakened by Negative Zone particles and you still claim he's physically superior? Hercules' striking power has not been displayed in the slightest so thus far, your physically superior claim is rather baseless indeed. And I still have cards in my hand for striking power as well as durability too so you'd better pull something out of your hat to change the tides quickly.

I know you're joking here (and lol at the Wolverine pimpslap, love it when he gets knocked down by a powerful brick) but unfortunately you've given me the idea to go into another aspect of this debate; damage soaking. And sadly for you, Rulk has some incredible damage soaking feats at the hands of Wolverine that I can pull up to show

Although this fight does proceed as a Hulk vs Wolverine fight tends to go (with Wolverine darting around Rulk scratching him constantly with his superior speed, agility and adamantium claws) and Wolverine does blind Rulk here, Rulk shows a strong aptitude for tanking Wolverine's damage and powering on through to inflict his own damage on the Canadian Runt. That's far more impressive than Hercules' damage soak that I've seen or that you've presented so far (which is nothing really.) And this is strengthened even more by Rulk possessing a healing factor

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Here he says his eyes will regrow (and clearly they do given later issues) which is supported by other scans from The Avenging Spider-Man's first arc with a Rulk team up

Rulk is soldiering on from...whatever is hurting him in The Moloids' underground kingdom and points out that healing tissue is not a problem for him later on. So not only does Hercules have to bypass Rulk's durability, he has to get past his damage soaking and healing factor. A three fold problem for which Rulk surpasses Herc on this front. And for the record, a recent Wolverine vs Hercules thread that got bumped had a general consensus that Wolverine was more likely to take Hercules down than Herc could take Logan down. Wolverine08, ComicStooge, GodSpawn (someone you're more than familiar with on the battle forums :P) and more agreed Wolverine's speed and claws could bypass Herc's durability. Yet my showing demonstrates Rulk's superior damage soaking and healing factor acting as a suitable counter to Wolverine's advantages. So in a straight up brawl, these edges could aid Rulk in tanking Hercules' hits and landing more of his own.

Oh and Rulk's pimp slap above on Wolverine>Hercules' pimp slap on Wolverine as he sent him flying for miles so you'll need something better than that if you want to compare who has the better pimp slap :P

@kidman560 said:

Lets get back to the Serious Now

Seriously these guys are fairly even in Physical Stats... though from what i can tell Hercules seems to be slightly more durable and stronger. :P

Hercules has the better skill here. i mean this guy lives for battle

3000 years of experience
3000 years of experience

I dont think you'll be able to make the case of Rulk being more skilled here.

as for Ross' Tactical skills while i concede they are greater than that of hercules they aren't, or at least have not been shown to be, on the same level of Captain America or Black Panther. I dont think they give him a huge advantage here.

Again, better skill doesn't really translate into combat expertise. Thor also has thousands of years worth of combat experience under his belt and how does he approach almost every single one of his battles? Hammer strike, hammer throw with the occasional lightning thrown in. That's how he always fights and though it's enough to overpower most foes, it's not exactly skill. In comparison, Black Panther and Iron Fist only have decades worth of combat experience yet they've accomplished far superior showings of technical skill and combat prowess on panel than Hercules could ever dream of. The realistic notion that Hercules would be an undefeatable warrior with this much experience does not translate onto comics that well given his style of fighting.

Going back to Rulk's tactical skill, I maintain that it can change the tide here. For example, dumb and stupid and Loebforce PISy as it may be, Rulk had studied Thor's fighting style which gave him a way to beat Thor.

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And technically, Thor's hammer has been lifted in zero gravity before by Iron Man.

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Plus Rulk is the current leader of The Thunderbolts and you don't get to be leader for being someone who doesn't know a thing or two about fighting tactics.

Concluding Points

  • Whilst Hercules does possess formidable physical striking power, Rulk has still shown more than enough feats to justify him being able to hurt Hercules even without getting even angrier and stronger as a result of this. One shotting Iron Man, a giant comet threatening the Earth (just like Grey Hulk did to a bigger asteroid) and putting the beatdown on Hulk better than Hercules has done demonstrates Rulk's better striking power so far.
  • Though Hercules is definitely a durable foe, Rulk's damage soaking coupled with his healing factor add another layer of protection onto his already impressive durability which will give Hercules more trouble to take him down.
  • Rulk also possesses superior ranged attacks thanks to his energy projection on top of his physical might.
  • Hercules' superior fighting skill won't count for too much against Rulk's tactical mind and possible strategic thinking Rulk can employ in battle to outthink as well as overpower Hercules in this battle.
  • All these factors shift the weight of the fight in Rulk's favour so far.

All done. I await your response Kidman.

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@kidman560: BTW feel free to focus on finishing your other CAV with Veshark and Sovereign first before getting to my response. That one's been going for far longer and I can wait patiently as you've done for me.

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#25  Edited By Veshark

@lvenger said:

@kidman560: BTW feel free to focus on finishing your other CAV with Veshark and Sovereign first before getting to my response. That one's been going for far longer and I can wait patiently as you've done for me.

I concur with this statement! One final post by kidman and that thread can move straight to voting, anyways.

I'm guessing this debate's like your semi-comeback, L. Tag me for votes when you guys finish up; it's looking great so far.

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@veshark: I had another CAV promised to Frozen after you but he's all tied up with CAVs and tourneys like you are so we're doing it another time. We have the match in mind and it'll be an interesting one at that ;)

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@lvenger said:

@veshark: I had another CAV promised to Frozen after you but he's all tied up with CAVs and tourneys like you are so we're doing it another time. We have the match in mind and it'll be an interesting one at that ;)

Yup, I have not forgotten our own CaV, L. Once I wrap up one of my tourneys, I'll be sure to shoot you a PM. I've got two mid-tier-ish characters that I think should be interesting to defend. Looking forward to your debate with Frozen, mate.

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#28  Edited By Whirlwind_33
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Very nice gentlemen.

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@veshark: I have a couple in mind as well that could make for an interesting debate.

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#31 frozen  Moderator  Online
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@frozen: yeah this thing is on Hiatus since Lvenger went on ahead to other stuff (since i was banned from all technology) and i am not upset with him we just need to wait for him to become available again

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@kidman560: I'm free to continue this whenever you want but it's your turn to post Kid.

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#34  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger said:

@kidman560: I'm free to continue this whenever you want but it's your turn to post Kid.

just waiting for you for when your ready... its 3:36 AM right now so im hardly in the right mindset to be posting a long post so give me a few hours

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@lvenger said:

@kidman560: I'm free to continue this whenever you want but it's your turn to post Kid.

just waiting for you for when your ready... its 3:36 AM right now so im hardly in the right mindset to be posting a long post so give me a few hours

Why are you still up then lol? Anyway I can multitask with the other debate I'm in due to that not going anywhere for a while so take as long as you want to make the post.

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@lvenger: ssshhh the 17 year old mind and body works in mysterious ways

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#37  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger i have to work but i have half of it typed up (honest) ill finish it when i get home

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@kidman560: Relax, take your time, I was only joking on your other CAV thread. I'll patiently wait for however long you need to make your reply.

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#39  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger: i hate your new Icon that being said lets continue

That's not only Rulk matching Hulk in this fight and tanking a spew of blows from the Green Giant, he's also dishing out plenty of damage and even going so far as to overpower and break Hulk's arm. When has Hercules ever accomplished a feat like that in his fights against Hulk? Even in fair fights, Hercules has been at a severe disadvantage in contrast to Hulk. So if your argument is that Hercules has matched Hulk meaning he possesses too much might for Rulk, I think these showings contradict that claim easily.

the only time Rulk has gone toe to toe with Hulk and come out looking decent is in the loeb series... we see a much different side of his durability in A vs X where he has his arm easily broken by Phoenix Namor, absolutely destroyed by Colossonaut (i mean Ben Grimm had a better showing)

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meanwhile Hercules has the strength to compete even with War Hulk

Hercules was going to lose (i mean this hulk went toe to toe with Sentry) but Herc still floored him meanwhile Hercules was able to stay standing through the onslaught. but he floored Hulk. so yes Hercules may be at a disadvantage against Hulk but i dont see it as a major disadvantage and keep in mind this was War Hulk

against Regular Hulk... Hercules has much better showings

Hercules seems to do much better...

and against Thor Hercules does very well

I feel like some context is missing from this part of your post. For one, that's Chaos War Abomination and he was fighting the individual members of the Hulk family with ease, even overpowering the Green Scar. Secondly, he later on tanked blows from the entire Hulk family ganging up on him

theres no missing context, you saw what happened to Red She-Hulk after words... its just a good striking feat... she gets clobbered.

Oh and here's the best part, all the while being weakened by Negative Zone radiation. This is explicitly stated in the issue as Rulk feels the Negative Zone draining him as well as being mentioned in the general bio I gave to you. Whilst Comicvine bios may not be pitch perfect, they're at least more reliable than Marvel Wiki database's ones. Thus, it seems perfectly clear that Rulk is more than able to tank Hercules' blows given what he's faced whilst weakened.

As much as i love Ben Grimm, Hercules would slaughter him in fact Hercules did slaughter him

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Largely unimpressed with that showing... kind of goes into the skill that Hercules possesses also because we know Ben Grimm has a degree of fighting skill (boxing but still)

Again, your statement doesn't match what has actually happened between Wonder Man and Thor. If we look at the original source material where this supposedly happened, we can verify what actually happened.

that would be great if that was the instance i was referring to right?

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to be fair Thor did get up shortly afterwords but ya know he did floor Thor my statement holds true

One shotted a wet Namor in the rain whose strength would be at Class 100 at least in this point

you know better than to post that PIS... i am honestly shocked you posted this.

Namor vs Sentry

and given your knowledge of bricks i think you would know better than to post that... Namor has consistently been shown to be better than that.

That remains to be seen. For one, Thor's own striking power is nothing to be schoffed at. Secondly, it's a faulty claim to generalise Hercules' hand to hand performance to him being able to beat Rulk. And thirdly it implies that Rulk's striking power isn't up to overpowering Hercules which isn't the strongest counter to say the least

how much more proof do you need

Thor had to summon Mijonir before that Hercules was clearly depicted as being superior. he put Thor in a lock.

And Colossus was no pushover as the Avatar of Cyttorak given that he stalemated Kuurth and easily beat The Thing. More proof that Hercules will be left stinging to say the least from just Rulk's punches.

I think you and me are viewing each fight differently. not once did Rulk have the upper hand in the fight against Colossonaut... (i think posted what was the end of that fight also) and are you sure you want to delve to deeply in A vs X

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in comparison to how Banner Hulk did against Emma Frost. (i mean even Thing came out looking better here)

He overpowered an early team of The Lady Liberators with ease which included She Hulk (who's in Class 80-100) and Valkyrie (a Class 50 superhuman)

i find this to be funny

because he didnt seem to be doing so hot against Red She-Hulk who by your own admission would have trouble taking She-Hulk

Even if Hercules is more skilled, he doesn't really utilise this skill in combat on a consistent basis. The one showing, whilst clearly impressive here, isn't always how Hercules fights a Hulk class brick. You have to account for Hercules' propensity to brawl to boot. Still, even with a so called hand to hand advantage, Rulk's superior striking power, durability and tactical mindset is more than enough to compensate for this one advantage Hercules has. Plus Rulk is pretty coordinated himself. Here he leaps from one building, hanging on to time his next jump to a ship and does so with ease and solid coordination.

I do account for his wanting to brawl... however look what he did against the Thing also. Hercules can put Rulk in a headlock... if your argument is hoping that Herc decides to brawl instead of try to win easily well...

Although this fight does proceed as a Hulk vs Wolverine fight tends to go (with Wolverine darting around Rulk scratching him constantly with his superior speed, agility and adamantium claws) and Wolverine does blind Rulk here, Rulk shows a strong aptitude for tanking Wolverine's damage and powering on through to inflict his own damage on the Canadian Runt. That's far more impressive than Hercules' damage soak that I've seen or that you've presented so far (which is nothing really.) And this is strengthened even more by Rulk possessing a healing factor

I was counting on you posting that, first off thats slashing damage... no affect here. second off Rulk has only had a healing factor like that in loeb books.

Namor did something similar...

you need to make up your mind on Namors power levels cuz right now your scale is all over the place... Namor gets 1 shot by Thor, but does well against Sentry and Thor again... Red She-Hulk would suffer against She-Hulk but if you take a look at what betty has done...

Red She-Hulk does well against Hulk, Wonder Man flooring Thor... it requires re-adjusting

Rulk is soldiering on from...whatever is hurting him in The Moloids' underground kingdom and points out that healing tissue is not a problem for him later on. So not only does Hercules have to bypass Rulk's durability, he has to get past his damage soaking and healing factor. A three fold problem for which Rulk surpasses Herc on this front. And for the record, a recent Wolverine vs Hercules thread that got bumped had a general consensus that Wolverine was more likely to take Hercules down than Herc could take Logan down. Wolverine08, ComicStooge, GodSpawn (someone you're more than familiar with on the battle forums :P) and more agreed Wolverine's speed and claws could bypass Herc's durability. Yet my showing demonstrates Rulk's superior damage soaking and healing factor acting as a suitable counter to Wolverine's advantages. So in a straight up brawl, these edges could aid Rulk in tanking Hercules' hits and landing more of his own.

again not really blunt force... lets journey back to Rulks fights with blunt force, Colossonaut, Thing, Red She-Hulk. his healing factor doesnt seem to be there. with Blunt force

that reminds me... i need to challenge another mod again... i used to believe the same thing until i saw the Namor fight and i realized that if Hercules really really wanted to he would smash wolverine into the dirt... you cant say Herc doesnt have the speed for it hes tagged Venom and again you are entirely counting on Hercules brawling and not pulling Wrestling moves...

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but again i'd need to read the whole debate and im really not looking forward to rustling the wolverine fans' jimmys more than i already did with my above comment

Plus Rulk is the current leader of The Thunderbolts and you don't get to be leader for being someone who doesn't know a thing or two about fighting tactics.

i have never doubted Rulk's tactical skill only its effectiveness. he doesnt have that spacial awareness that makes Caps, Cykes, or Hawkeyes tactical abilities useful during a fight.

if there was Prep i could see it being more useful

My Concluding points

  • i believe that Hercules Striking power has been clearly defined here
  • i believe that Hercules' superior skill has been shown
  • I believe that Red Shulk, Namor, and Wonder Man have been clearly defined here also
  • i have rustled Wolverine Jimmys
  • Hercules is King

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@kidman560: I'll have a full reply up tomorrow morning British time KM.

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@lvenger said:

@kidman560: I'll have a full reply up tomorrow morning British time KM.

lol im not taking the effort to figure that out... i'll just assume... later

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@kidman560: He's from England. His morning is not at the same time as your morning. So his reply may be later than you expect.

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#43  Edited By Lvenger

@kidman560: Ah at last your post is up. Better get my next post up too then.

Round 3

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meanwhile Hercules has the strength to compete even with War Hulk

Hercules was going to lose (i mean this hulk went toe to toe with Sentry) but Herc still floored him meanwhile Hercules was able to stay standing through the onslaught. but he floored Hulk. so yes Hercules may be at a disadvantage against Hulk but i dont see it as a major disadvantage and keep in mind this was War Hulk

If the basis of this point is that Hercules has the strength to contend with World War Hulk therefore he can deal with Rulk, you've made two crucial flaws. One, Rulk has also fought evenly with this incarnation of Hulk too. Granted, he was on the losing end against the most powerful incarnation of Hulk to date but so too was Hercules and Rulk got in some better shots against WWH than Hercules did (see link to TheAcidSkull's Hulk respect thread here) Secondly, you miss a crucial bit of context in your citation of Hercules vs Hulk scans. Hercules was only trying to reason with Hulk to allow him and his team to join up with Hulk. It wasn't really a fight as much as it was a beatdown for the team. And you say Hercules was able to stay standing against WWH but if that's so, then what's this?

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Doesn't look like Hercules is standing here. Looks like he's collapsed on the ground from fatigue and exhaustion from his beatdown at the hands of WWH. I guess that debunks this claim of yours entirely that he was able to remain standing afterwards.

against Regular Hulk... Hercules has much better showings

Hercules seems to do much better...

As I mentioned before, whilst those are some good feats, Rulk has fought much more evenly with the Green Savage Hulk and even earned one win from their battles. Hercules has not managed that achievement against any incarnation of Hulk yet.

As much as i love Ben Grimm, Hercules would slaughter him in fact Hercules did slaughter him

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Largely unimpressed with that showing... kind of goes into the skill that Hercules possesses also because we know Ben Grimm has a degree of fighting skill (boxing but still)

Fine, Hercules can stomp Ben Grimm. Guess who else can? Rulk. He tanked Grimm's best hits and even took a slug whilst weakened from Negative Zone radiation. All the while only trying to talk to The Thing and get him to shut down the Negative Zone portal. I believe that demonstrates that your example does not quite work in its aim to put Hercules on a benchmark beyond Rulk's reach to overcome.

that would be great if that was the instance i was referring to right?

to be fair Thor did get up shortly afterwords but ya know he did floor Thor my statement holds true

This was also in the period when Wonder Man's Ionic Form went completely out of control, warping his power levels and mental state. He started wanting to kill The Avengers and stop them from reforming as a team. This is confirmed by his statement on the Comicvine wiki page for Wonder Man which states

After Iron Man and Thor confronted Simon over his attitude towards the Avengers, Iron Man remarked that Simon was "leaking" ionic energy. Simon appeared to be dematerializing. He looked sickly, lost hair, and acted and spoke irrationally, suggesting that something was seriously wrong with Wonder Man.

The reason I post this is not mainly to counter the Thor knock over scan. Instead, it is an assurance policy I can redirect you to should you cite those scans where Wonder Man beats Rulk.

Plus Thor has always shown as Simon's superior in strength and raw power, even capable of one shotting Wonder Man with his hammer. Though that's different to one shotting Namor with his bare hands.

you know better than to post that PIS... i am honestly shocked you posted this.

Namor vs Sentry

and given your knowledge of bricks i think you would know better than to post that... Namor has consistently been shown to be better than that.

I'm shocked at you for daring to call that scan PIS. Just because it doesn't suit your argument does not mean you can dismiss it as PIS. That's a gross double standard flaw to fall into and you should know better than to post such things. Given Thor's other striking feats such as shaking Asgard itself with his punches, instantly drawing blood from Hercules and punt people into orbit casually, it makes perfect sense that he can one shot even a wet Namor in the rain.

As for your scans, first of all, Namor was getting utterly stomped by Sentry and had no real advantage against him. So I fail to see how those scans are anything legitimate. All Namor did was distract Sentry whilst Emma Frost entered his mind, took Bob into the White Room and gave him temporary control over his mind. If you're judging characters based on well they take a beating from more powerful beings, then I have a doozy selection of feats for you later on, I can promise you that.

Secondly, one must consider how much of a high end showing this is for Namor. He hasn't performed that well against a consistently mighty powerhouse (see your own Sentry scans for proof of that) and there's always what happened between Namor and Wonder Man which cements this point even more

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Oh look, the same guy The Thing defeated (and in turn had his blows tanked by Rulk) one shotted Namor rather easily. I believe that explains how much you're overplaying Namor here. Also Rulk has tanked blows from Namor too in his homefield environment to boot

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So even if Namor is the brick you make him out to be, Rulk has endured his blows too.

how much more proof do you need

Thor had to summon Mijonir before that Hercules was clearly depicted as being superior. he put Thor in a lock.

Again, you misunderstand and misrepresent the closeness of the Thor vs Hercules battles. As clearly demonstrated in Thor: Blood & Thunder (from which I cited scans in my third post) Thor fought very evenly with Hercules without Mjolnir in a contest of strength and skill. I can provide every single scan of that fight if needs be to prove my point but even in a weaponless brawl, Thor vs Hercules is a much closer contest than you care to admit. Relying on a cherry picked instance of a small, limited brawl where there's no definable winner does not count as quantifiable proof. Point me to where Hercules had the real advantage because Hercules' chokehold was immediately broken by Thor. Doesn't count as much as an advantage does it?

So, in answer to your question, I'm going to need better proof than this. My evidence of Rulk's capabilities has been concretely demonstrated his capabilities as being easily on Hercules' tier. And I have plenty more proof to come.

I think you and me are viewing each fight differently. not once did Rulk have the upper hand in the fight against Colossonaut... (i think posted what was the end of that fight also) and are you sure you want to delve to deeply in A vs X

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in comparison to how Banner Hulk did against Emma Frost. (i mean even Thing came out looking better here)

Sorry but

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You're ACTUALLY using feats of Phoenix Force Namor as a detrimental showing against Rulk's performance vs Namor? I don't know if you noticed this but um Namor was freaking empowered by a fifth of an omnipotent cosmic entity of rebirth, one of the most powerful forces in the entire universe. It amped The Phoenix Five's powers beyond belief. The five of them were able to stomp one of Marvel's Superman clones, Gladiator.

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And on his own, Namor was capable of repelling The Avengers who were sent to attack him

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Thor, Red Hulk and Thing are all Class 100 in strength yet Namor was able to repel them, tank their best hits and then obviously break Rulk's arm. Because Namor was amped by a fifth of The Phoenix Force when he broke Rulk's arm. Your blatant ignorance of this amp Namor had at the time demeans your evidence exponentially. Rulk would handily win over Namor without the amp, I can promise you that much.

Secondly, regarding your Colossonaut rebuttal I'll provide the full scans as I've been meaning to for my full argument:

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(Apologies, this is meant to go after the third scan but I didn't have this scan saved and the image uploader is slow today.)

Now I won't dream of arguing that Rulk had the advantage once Colossonaut's Demonic form took hold. Nor that Rulk won that fight fairly at all. Colossonaut allowed himself to be beaten by Rulk to avoid destroying the support pillars to Utopia. But this feat does show two solid qualities for Rulk. Firstly, Rulk was capable of fighting evenly with a non demonic form Colossnaut. This is shown in the first two scans where Rulk brawls evenly with Colossonaut then sticks his fingers in his eyes. This forces Colossonaut's Demonic form to emerge in the first place, due to Rulk's attacks. We also see Rulk duke it out evenly with a non Demonic Colossonaut here, catching one of Peter's punches, headbutting him and knocking him away.

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Secondly, Rulk's fight with Colossonaut demonstrates his impressive durability yet again. Though Demonic Colossonaut was clearly more powerful than Rulk, he still carried on fighting despite obvious wounds and injuries in battle. Yes Rulk's yellow blood is spilt and yes Rulk is clearly badly bruised from Colossonaut's attacks to say the least. But Rulk tanked those attacks all the same and was still able to stand and move around after taking blows that threatened to destroy the pillar which held up the island of Utopia. And when you see how big the island of Utopia is/was

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I think this shows how markedly noteworthy it is for Hulk to tank such blows in the first place. Hence, I have delved deeper into AvX but in a thorough and properly researched way which highlights Rulk's impressive showings and brings the faulty context of your points and evidence into light.

i find this to be funny

because he didnt seem to be doing so hot against Red She-Hulk who by your own admission would have trouble taking She-Hulk

Stop lowballing my evidence please, it doesn't count as a fitting or accurate argument in the slightest. First of all, Rulk had just fought Wolverine, Elektra, Deadpool, Punisher and more who were out for a bounty on Domino's head and who he was trying to protect since Domino knew Rulk was General Ross. Secondly, Loeb can hardly be called a consistent writer to say the least. Sometimes Rulk performs admirably, other times he got lowballed beyond belief. This is just as much a showing of jobbing and PIS as Rulk punching The Watcher was. Try not to cherry pick lowballed instances which befit your argument, it's severely lacking in demonstrating why Rulk loses to Hercules. Nothing of which your overall argument has yet to prove either.

I was counting on you posting that, first off thats slashing damage... no affect here. second off Rulk has only had a healing factor like that in loeb books.

Namor did something similar...

you need to make up your mind on Namors power levels cuz right now your scale is all over the place... Namor gets 1 shot by Thor, but does well against Sentry and Thor again... Red She-Hulk would suffer against She-Hulk but if you take a look at what betty has done...

Oh so you've cherry picked an instance where Namor does well against Hulk? I can easily do the same. Here, in scans from Wolverine 42-45, Wolverine goes after Nitro after the destruction he caused in Civil War and comes across Namor. They have a fight and whilst Namor wins, I want you to pay attention to the last scan

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"Next time you want to eviscerate someone, try hitting the major organs." Wolverine is considered one of the top fighters in the Marvel Universe with an insane level of martial arts knowledge. Given that he's incapacitated a Class 100 Strontian in the form of Kid Gladiator with the right pressure point, do you honestly think Namor would still be standing if Logan wanted to kill him? He was clearly holding back here to avoid killing Namor and that's the crucial flaw in your evidence. Wolverine's knowledge of the body's weak points and methods of killing someone are near unrivalled. And when paired with his plot device adamantium claws, they can do serious damage. For example, they've cut through Gladiator, the guy who surfs through suns, like a hot knife through butter

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They've bypassed World War Hulk's impressive durability

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And the claws have even gone straight through Thanos whilst he was wielding the might of The Power Gem

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Bearing this evidence in mind, there's an additional factor which strengthens Rulk's damage soaking and healing factor abilities. Wolverine was wearing his black X-Force suit. As you may be aware, The X-Force are a covert black ops team of mutants dealing with threats that cannot be publically handled for fear of tarnishing The X-Men's image. And Wolverine was wearing this black suit whilst going after Rulk. Meaning that he wasn't holding back. If you want to question any apparent illegitimacy of Wolverine wearing a black suit meaning that he's less likely to hold back, feel free. But I should also note that the damage done to Rulk by Wolverine supports my claim even further. Logan was holding back much less against Rulk than he was in his two fights against Namor. Because he knows Rulk can take it and because he was out for the kill.

Therefore, Rulk's damage soaking against Wolverine is vastly superior than your weak evidence of Wolverine's fight against Namor. Rulk endured several deep slashes and getting his eyes gouged before healing from that damage in the first place. This brings up the question of what Hercules' damage soaking and healing factor showings are like? Because I do believe that they don't come close to what Rulk can do.Hence, in battle, Rulk's superior damage soaking and healing factor will enable him to tank Hercules' hits and come back swinging with his own powerful moves.

again not really blunt force... lets journey back to Rulks fights with blunt force, Colossonaut, Thing, Red She-Hulk. his healing factor doesnt seem to be there. with Blunt force

that reminds me... i need to challenge another mod again... i used to believe the same thing until i saw the Namor fight and i realized that if Hercules really really wanted to he would smash wolverine into the dirt... you cant say Herc doesnt have the speed for it hes tagged Venom and again you are entirely counting on Hercules brawling and not pulling Wrestling moves...

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but again i'd need to read the whole debate and im really not looking forward to rustling the wolverine fans' jimmys more than i already did with my above comment

As demonstrated above, Rulk can tank the blunt force hits of vastly more powerful beings like Colossonaut and The Green Scar Hulk. He tanked these direct hits from The Green Scar just fine

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And this hit from Hulk which nearly levelled a huge rock formation

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Now as for your comment on Hercules vs Wolverine, I'm going to have to strongly disagree there. Not only have I stated that Sentry was holding back and not wishing to fight Hercules but Venom does not have speed feats which surpass Spider-Man's. I really wish I could remember the thread I saw this in yesterday but I think Jashro said it or something like that. I admit, that last sentence was an unfounded point but I wouldn't have said it if I couldn't remember it happening. And whilst I may not be a Wolverine expert, I can cite people who are. And their comments on the Wolverine vs Hercules match provide compelling testimony on why Hercules would lose. Laflux's post 70 says

"Just to lay out a few points. Spider-Man while joking around was untouchable to Herc, who was literally hitting thin air trying to tag him. Logan may not be as agile nor have as great aviodence but most importantly, Peter was getting multiple shots on Hercules. Wolverine's combat speed isn't so far behind Peter's that he isn't going to be getting that much less hits in, and unlike Peter he isn't going to be punching him with blunt tramua, he's going to be clawing him with steak knives that have gone through Thanos, Hulk, Gladiator (all guys who are physically more superior or equal to Hercules). Thor even admitted that he couldn't hold out long against Logan's damage output and he had the advantage of wearing armor as well. If we switch things around, Wolverine has tanked hits that have sent him flying halfway across the Globe, hits from an Enraged Wonder Man, Hits from Hulk, Thing, Kid Gladiator without being K.O'ed.

The point about WWH is an old one, but may be referenced again, so I'll break it down. Hulk allowed Logan to slash his eyes, because he knew he could heal from it. Herc tries the same move, and he is blinded. WWH beat Wolverine punch-drunk. With a few punches, WWH beat Herc face so bad it started to look like Hamburger meat."

Wolverine08's post 84 explains that

"Claws that have almost ripped away Gladiator's shoulder, have cut off half of the Thing's face with one swipe, recently one shotted Savage Hulk when they were thrust into his brain, pierced deeply into Thanos, cut World War Hulk despite his hardened skin and ripped his eyes out, etc. aren't going to produce "serious" injuries? Wolverine hits Hercules in a vital area like the throat or face in this type of manner:

and Herc will be nigh dead. Being superior to Thor in H2H combat is utterly unimpressive in comparison to Wolverine. Thor hasn't mastered 18 forms of Kung Fu, he hasn't been noted explicitly to have mastered any alien martial arts, he can't put down fellow aliens with pressure points like Wolverine has, he can't create pseudo aneurysms with simple kicks like Wolverine has, he can't determine weak spots with just a glance, etc. And despite all of Hercules vaunted skill, Amadeus Cho already noted that he just swings wildly in fights with no actual aim. Wolverine has tanked punches from people just as strong or stronger than Herc like World War Hulk(6 times to be exact), Wonder Man, Namor, Skaar, etc. He can take a few hits, and he won't even be getting touched much. Hercules has no speed feats that put him in Wolverine's tier speed wise, and people with similar speed to James like Spider-Man have danced around Herc casually."

And in this thread, your arch rival God_Spawn stated

"Wolverine. Herc won't land a hit if Logan doesn't want him to. He's a far worse fighter than Logan and before people start going "he invented Pankration", Amadeus Cho basically said he fights with little technique and just punches things. Even serious he couldn't even hit a joking Spider-Man until Parker stopped moving and stood there rubbing his hand because he couldn't hurt him. Unlike Parker, Wolverine doesn't have that problem. And he shall continue to get weaker and weaker and since I find him connecting much, his chances keep growing slimmer and slimmer to down Logan, also add in the damage he shall receive as well."

So all in all, I can cite plenty of experts who think Wolverine can down Hercules with his superior speed and adamantium claws. In contrast, Rulk's damage soaking showing against Wolverine coupled with his healing factor showings in Avenging Spider-Man demonstrate that he can take Hercules' best hits and keep coming back for more. The same cannot be said for Hercules' damage soak or healing factor capabilities though, of which you haven't provided anything comparable to Rulk's to say the least.

Concluding Points

  • Again, though the limits of Hercules' striking power are impressive, I still haven't seen anything which surpasses what I've provided for Rulk thus far. Let alone the feat I have saved as my striking power trump card.
  • The use of Red She Hulk, Namor and Wonder Man in your counter haven't adequately demonstrated how Hercules is far above all them in physicals in contrast to Rulk. I've contextualised your showings and demonstrated how they don't stack up compared to Rulk's feats.
  • Rulk's vastly superior damage soaking and healing factor have been clearly defined by reference to the showings of Wolverine's adamantium claws and the looser morals he displayed in his fight with Rulk compared to how Wolverine fought against Namor. Thus, Rulk will be able to hang in there far longer than Hercules due to Rulk's quickness recovery from damage.
  • Hercules' only confirmed advantages are physical strength and fighting skill. When compared to Rulk's damage soaking, healing factor, durability, energy projection and striking power edges, it's evident who has the most advantages in this fight.

Your turn Kidman.

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#44  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger: hmmm not sure how i feel about this... ehh thats never stopped me before (even though it should have many many times... lol)

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If the basis of this point is that Hercules has the strength to contend with World War Hulk therefore he can deal with Rulk, you've made two crucial flaws. One, Rulk has also fought evenly with this incarnation of Hulk too. Granted, he was on the losing end against the most powerful incarnation of Hulk to date but so too was Hercules and Rulk got in some better shots against WWH than Hercules did (see link to TheAcidSkull's Hulk respect thread here) Secondly, you miss a crucial bit of context in your citation of Hercules vs Hulk scans. Hercules was only trying to reason with Hulk to allow him and his team to join up with Hulk. It wasn't really a fight as much as it was a beatdown for the team. And you say Hercules was able to stay standing against WWH but if that's so, then what's this?

I believe World Breaker Hulk is the strongest Incarnation of the Hulk to date. nearly sinking the Easter Seaboard with a step is pretty fantastic.

Hercules was beaten down to the Ground (offering no defense)... War Hulk was floored with a single blow. Had Hercules been trying to win instead of reasoning the fight may have gone down differently. I'm not saying Hercules would have won but hes one of the only bricks with Feats to suggest he would have a chance.

As I mentioned before, whilst those are some good feats, Rulk has fought much more evenly with the Green Savage Hulk and even earned one win from their battles. Hercules has not managed that achievement against any incarnation of Hulk yet.

Hercules neither won nor lost against Savage Hulk. its obvious though in the fight Hercules was not seriously harmed as he was able to fix the rail tracks immediately after the fight.

Fine, Hercules can stomp Ben Grimm. Guess who else can? Rulk. He tanked Grimm's best hits and even took a slug whilst weakened from Negative Zone radiation. All the while only trying to talk to The Thing and get him to shut down the Negative Zone portal. I believe that demonstrates that your example does not quite work in its aim to put Hercules on a benchmark beyond Rulk's reach to overcome.

Ben Grimm is my home boy. the Original Brick and I believe that not many people can stomp him (i mean the guy goes toe to toe with The Hulk almost every other week. now i think he gets screwed over because everytime he loses but it sells comics so). the only reason Hercules won that easily is because he used his wrestling experience to win. had he brawled it out with Grimm it would have taken more time. this whole point goes to my Hercules can finish this match quickly using his wrestling experience to incap Rulk.

This was also in the period when Wonder Man's Ionic Form went completely out of control, warping his power levels and mental state. He started wanting to kill The Avengers and stop them from reforming as a team. This is confirmed by his statement on the Comicvine wiki page for Wonder Man which states

while that may be true it didnt warp it to unnecessary lvls i like to think of it as what Wonder Man could do if he went Morals off Blood Lust. however if you want to stay closer to his regular power levels

sorry these are out of order but Wonder Man traded blow for blow with Thor and had to be put down by a Mijonir plot power.

wanna see something even cooler? I know you do.

thats our Jolly Red Hulk being choked out. (see Hercules using his skill could pull this off) @cosmicallyaware1 special thanks.

so I think we are underestimating how strong The Thing really is... and i blame is showings against Hulk because it seems thats all anyone knows about him. if you go into detail of the Thing you'll see this

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and

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Abraxas and Celestial blasts... Ben Tanks them

I think Ben Grimm is hugely underestimated. but thats not the debate. the debate being can Hercules beat Red Hulk? yes. Hercules has taken on Wonder Man and absolutely slaughtered him there was no question about it. Hercules has used Bens Strength against him.

I'm shocked at you for daring to call that scan PIS. Just because it doesn't suit your argument does not mean you can dismiss it as PIS. That's a gross double standard flaw to fall into and you should know better than to post such things. Given Thor's other striking feats such as shaking Asgard itself with his punches, instantly drawing blood from Hercules and punt people into orbit casually, it makes perfect sense that he can one shot even a wet Namor in the rain.

As for your scans, first of all, Namor was getting utterly stomped by Sentry and had no real advantage against him. So I fail to see how those scans are anything legitimate. All Namor did was distract Sentry whilst Emma Frost entered his mind, took Bob into the White Room and gave him temporary control over his mind. If you're judging characters based on well they take a beating from more powerful beings, then I have a doozy selection of feats for you later on, I can promise you that.

Secondly, one must consider how much of a high end showing this is for Namor. He hasn't performed that well against a consistently mighty powerhouse (see your own Sentry scans for proof of that) and there's always what happened between Namor and Wonder Man which cements this point even more

I call it PIS because Namor has been shown to be better... even Sentry didnt one shot him. especially since more recently he tanked a blow from Miojnir with no problem... i call it PIS not because of my argument but because as a Namor fan i have seen him do better.

Oh look, the same guy The Thing defeated (and in turn had his blows tanked by Rulk) one shotted Namor rather easily. I believe that explains how much you're overplaying Namor here. Also Rulk has tanked blows from Namor too in his homefield environment to boot

I think we need to be careful how much Wonder Man we throw in here... Simon pretty much put the smack down on Rulk. but given Namors victories and stalemates against Savage Hulk i think its safe to say. however most of my feats from Namor have been much more recent then yours... Namor has been written much stronger now than he was before.

Again, you misunderstand and misrepresent the closeness of the Thor vs Hercules battles. As clearly demonstrated in Thor: Blood & Thunder (from which I cited scans in my third post) Thor fought very evenly with Hercules without Mjolnir in a contest of strength and skill. I can provide every single scan of that fight if needs be to prove my point but even in a weaponless brawl, Thor vs Hercules is a much closer contest than you care to admit. Relying on a cherry picked instance of a small, limited brawl where there's no definable winner does not count as quantifiable proof. Point me to where Hercules had the real advantage because Hercules' chokehold was immediately broken by Thor. Doesn't count as much as an advantage does it?

So, in answer to your question, I'm going to need better proof than this. My evidence of Rulk's capabilities has been concretely demonstrated his capabilities as being easily on Hercules' tier. And I have plenty more proof to come.

Im fully willing to admit that Hercules vs Thor is close either one can take a majority based on Battlefield, Equipment, and such. but if he doesnt have Mijonir the odds tip into Hercules' favor . Wonder Man vs Thor is what i use to reference this (i posted it earlier) he needed to use Mijonir to beat Simon. without Mijonir Thor is still a threat but... he lacks the brawling/skill feats most other bricks have. Meanwhile Hercules has demonstrated many times that he has skill in that area.

You're ACTUALLY using feats of Phoenix Force Namor as a detrimental showing against Rulk's performance vs Namor? I don't know if you noticed this but um Namor was freaking empowered by a fifth of an omnipotent cosmic entity of rebirth, one of the most powerful forces in the entire universe. It amped The Phoenix Five's powers beyond belief. The five of them were able to stomp one of Marvel's Superman clones, Gladiator.

My point was that Rulk ,who is supposedly superior in every way to The Thing, came out with a broken arm while Grimm was fine. i am under no impression that Hercules would win against Phoenix Namor as it took some clever thinking from T'challa and the Avengers to really put him down.

I think this shows how markedly noteworthy it is for Hulk to tank such blows in the first place. Hence, I have delved deeper into AvX but in a thorough and properly researched way which highlights Rulk's impressive showings and brings the faulty context of your points and evidence into light.

As you said Colossonaut was trying to lose... when he became Cyttorak's avatar his entire mindset changed he no longer cared about destruction around him. this really doesnt help Rulk...

as you can see here... C-naut is pretty impervious to pain. so him coming back from the whole destruction mind-set may have affected him other ways we dont know. all we do know is that reasonable C-naut shouldn't have even felt Rulk's punches

"Next time you want to eviscerate someone, try hitting the major organs." Wolverine is considered one of the top fighters in the Marvel Universe with an insane level of martial arts knowledge. Given that he's incapacitated a Class 100 Strontian in the form of Kid Gladiator with the right pressure point, do you honestly think Namor would still be standing if Logan wanted to kill him? He was clearly holding back here to avoid killing Namor and that's the crucial flaw in your evidence. Wolverine's knowledge of the body's weak points and methods of killing someone are near unrivalled. And when paired with his plot device adamantium claws, they can do serious damage. For example, they've cut through Gladiator, the guy who surfs through suns, like a hot knife through butter

i know Wolverine is one of the best... i also know that there isnt much that can stop his claws. I also know that if Bricks would use some small amount of intelligence they would go (lets not get stabbed) and avoid his claws they can put him down for the KO

him tagging Gladiator is a whole new kind of stupid.

Bearing this evidence in mind, there's an additional factor which strengthens Rulk's damage soaking and healing factor abilities. Wolverine was wearing his black X-Force suit. As you may be aware, The X-Force are a covert black ops team of mutants dealing with threats that cannot be publically handled for fear of tarnishing The X-Men's image. And Wolverine was wearing this black suit whilst going after Rulk. Meaning that he wasn't holding back. If you want to question any apparent illegitimacy of Wolverine wearing a black suit meaning that he's less likely to hold back, feel free. But I should also note that the damage done to Rulk by Wolverine supports my claim even further. Logan was holding back much less against Rulk than he was in his two fights against Namor. Because he knows Rulk can take it and because he was out for the kill.

oh yes i remember strongly how none of X-force was upset after Fantomex put a bullet in kid apocalypse. even Deadpool was upset at that. Deadpool the man who kills everything. while i tend to believe that in the X-force uniform, Wolverine holds back less there is simply no evidence that he was going straight for the kill.

Stop lowballing my evidence please, it doesn't count as a fitting or accurate argument in the slightest. First of all, Rulk had just fought Wolverine, Elektra, Deadpool, Punisher and more who were out for a bounty on Domino's head and who he was trying to protect since Domino knew Rulk was General Ross. Secondly, Loeb can hardly be called a consistent writer to say the least. Sometimes Rulk performs admirably, other times he got lowballed beyond belief. This is just as much a showing of jobbing and PIS as Rulk punching The Watcher was. Try not to cherry pick lowballed instances which befit your argument, it's severely lacking in demonstrating why Rulk loses to Hercules. Nothing of which your overall argument has yet to prove either.

and what you are doing to Namor, Wonder Man, and Hercules is... youre trying to tell me that Namor getting one-shotted isn't low-balling? or against Wonder Man? (who choked out Red Hulk while under normal power) lets play it fair then.

And in this thread, your arch rival God_Spawn stated

saying he's my arch-rival would imply that i have a shot at beating him... i still need a little bit more experience. when i debate @god_spawn its mostly just for fun and ive never met someone who defends butt-clops so admirably. its truly impressive. however the Wolverine vs Bricks arguments will have to take place later. for the time being i leave that all Hulks have great resistance to slashing damage, not as great to blunt force trauma

I still Maintain

I still Maintain that Hercules can easily incap Rulk the same way Simon did

I still Maintain that Hercules is the strongest one there is (uh oh that otta rustle some jimmys)

I still Maintain that Hercules has plenty of striking feats to content with Hulk but also his Wrestling Skill

I still Maintain that Hercules is the Main Man (dude im actively trying now)

Hercules = God... wait a minute.

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#45  Edited By Lvenger

@kidman560: I didn't get a notification for this. How odd. I'll work on a reply tomorrow. BTW how many more posts each do you want to do? 1 or 2?

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#46  Edited By kidman560

@lvenger: no more than 1 each... (and yeah my notifications have been fritzy also your last post on here i didnt get tagged i just remembered)

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@lvenger: no more than 1 each... (and yeah my notifications have been fritzy also your last post on here i didnt get tagged i just remembered)

I got this notification of yours but not the other one. Strange. Anyway, 1 more post each is fine by me btw.

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#48  Edited By Lvenger

@kidman560: Well it's been fun KM but since we're bringing this debate to a close, here's my last post on this brick CAV of ours

Final Round

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I believe World Breaker Hulk is the strongest Incarnation of the Hulk to date. nearly sinking the Easter Seaboard with a step is pretty fantastic.

Hercules was beaten down to the Ground (offering no defense)... War Hulk was floored with a single blow. Had Hercules been trying to win instead of reasoning the fight may have gone down differently. I'm not saying Hercules would have won but hes one of the only bricks with Feats to suggest he would have a chance.

So do I, we share the common view that WWH is indeed one of the strongest incarnations of Hulk to date. But I sincerely doubt that the fight would have gone differently had Hercules been wanting to win. Hercules doesn't have a track record against Savage Hulk so how is he going to win against the most powerful incarnation of Hulk to date? And Hercules isn't the only brick who's gone toe to toe evenly with WWH. Rulk also fought this version of Hulk for a prolonged period of time and though he was eventually one shotted via a thunderclap, I'm sincerely doubtful that Hercules would fare much better than Rulk. Especially since it was confirmed by Amadeus Cho and Hulk himself that he was holding back in New York. Meaning he was also holding back against Hercules. In any case, both our bricks can fight WWH for a prolonged time which means this fight is still an even contest and needs to be decided via their own feats too.

Hercules neither won nor lost against Savage Hulk. its obvious though in the fight Hercules was not seriously harmed as he was able to fix the rail tracks immediately after the fight.

But Rulk has one victory via physical defeat and one victory via energy absorption against Savage Hulk. A much better track record than Hercules has, that's for certain.

Ben Grimm is my home boy. the Original Brick and I believe that not many people can stomp him (i mean the guy goes toe to toe with The Hulk almost every other week. now i think he gets screwed over because everytime he loses but it sells comics so). the only reason Hercules won that easily is because he used his wrestling experience to win. had he brawled it out with Grimm it would have taken more time. this whole point goes to my Hercules can finish this match quickly using his wrestling experience to incap Rulk.

I happen to be a big Ben Grimm fan too my friend and am also knowledgeable in his feats. Whilst The Thing has some exceptionally high tier physical feats, a lot of the characters we've been discussing are on another plane of bricks altogether. And if you're saying Hercules only won because he used his wrestling experience, that only makes my next point all the more detrimental to your case. Since you say there aren't many bricks who can stomp him, I refer you back to a point I made earlier where World War Hulk clearly one shots Ben Grimm

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And guess who fought evenly with this same incarnation of Hulk for a dozen pages or so? Yep, Rulk did. I believe that demonstrates the validity of my claim that Rulk is operating in an entirely different brick sphere than Ben Grimm is so he's more than a match for Hercules here.

while that may be true it didnt warp it to unnecessary lvls i like to think of it as what Wonder Man could do if he went Morals off Blood Lust. however if you want to stay closer to his regular power levels

sorry these are out of order but Wonder Man traded blow for blow with Thor and had to be put down by a Mijonir plot power.

wanna see something even cooler? I know you do.

thats our Jolly Red Hulk being choked out. (see Hercules using his skill could pull this off) @cosmicallyaware1 special thanks.

Well not too shabby a citation of Thor and Wonder Man's fight from the bygone days of the past. But they do support my point as well as yours too you know. Thor was clearly more powerful than Wonder Man since, once he'd had enough stalling, he one shotted him with a lightning charged Mjolnir throw. Additionally, Wonder Man clearly strained to lift the Thor level weights in your scan from earlier further cementing his status below Thor. And furthermore I have scans of The Thing clearly overpowering Wonder Man in a fight.

@lvenger said:Furthermore, I've located a showing with a mind controlled Wonder Man fighting the Thing where Ben states that although he doesn't exactly relish fighting Wonder Man, he does explicitly state that he's tougher than Wonder Man is.
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Although Wonder Man does go down far too quickly due to his mind control affecting his fighting ability, the results do speak for themselves. Thing does seem sure of himself that he's capable of overpowering Wonder Man. Which isn't too surprising given his steady increases in strength over time.

As for your choke hold feats, in the immortal words of fictional lawyer Phoenix Wright

There's notable context omissed here. Mainly, the contention that Wonder Man's Ionic form was in a major fluctuations during this period and this also played havoc on his power levels. Not only was Wonder Man acting out of character, he was also acting out of his usual power levels. That's something I've seen on here before which is the suitable reply to your point. There's also the possibility that Wonder Man drained Rulk's energy to incapacitate him, something Hercules does not have to use.

However, assuming that you intend to use this as proof that Hercules can still wrestle Hulk into submission, I say think again. Rulk has one trick you fail to realise could disrupt Hercules' grip. That being his heat generation. This same heat generation can also casually scorch the Earth beneath his feet

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And this heat is capable of surrounding his entire body too

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If Rulk turns up the heat, he can make his skin too hot for Hercules to handle or catch him off his guard to gain the tactical advantage. Not to mention that Rulk utilises dirty tactics in fights so he won't lose any sleep over using unorthodox, brutal methods to shake Hercules off e.g. poking him in the eyes like he did with Colossonaut.

And who's to say Rulk can't pull some wrestling manaeveurs on Hercules? For example, Rulk has managed to physically overpower and subdue the mutant Strong Guy with physical might and wrestling techniques. And Strong Guy's mutant power is the ability to absorb the kinetic energy of any object that comes into contact with him. Granted, it's only temporary storage but it means that he can absorb the kinetic motion of a speeding truck or a superstrong punch and turn it into his own strength. Yet Rulk still beat him with wrestling techniques and physical might

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so I think we are underestimating how strong The Thing really is... and i blame is showings against Hulk because it seems thats all anyone knows about him. if you go into detail of the Thing you'll see this

I think Ben Grimm is hugely underestimated. but thats not the debate. the debate being can Hercules beat Red Hulk? yes. Hercules has taken on Wonder Man and absolutely slaughtered him there was no question about it. Hercules has used Bens Strength against him.

Energy projection resistance has no bearing on my side of the debate since Rulk doesn't have any energy attacks to worry about but here's one of Rulk's energy resistance feats. He tanks one of MODOK's blasts designed to specifically harm him

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In contrast, here's how well Red She Hulk tanked it

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Puts a damper on your lowballed point about Red She Hulk vs Rulk no?

I call it PIS because Namor has been shown to be better... even Sentry didnt one shot him. especially since more recently he tanked a blow from Miojnir with no problem... i call it PIS not because of my argument but because as a Namor fan i have seen him do better.

Really? Because from what I've seen, Namor was majorly struggling against Sentry, who doesn't have close to Mjolnir's striking power and he only managed to stalemate Ben Grimm in AvX, even underwater in his homefield environment. Yet look what Mjolnir does to the amped Angrir form of Ben Grimm

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If Mjolnir can do that to an amped Thing, there's more than a reliable certainty that Namor can be one shotted by Thor just like Wonder Man was one shotted by Mjolnir (who in turn one shotted Namor too.) Speaking of Angrir, his fight against Rulk counts as another set of solid striking power and durability feats against the amped Ben Grimm

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Again, I won't argue that Rulk had any kind of advantage here. Angrir beat him quite handily. But these scans are important in demonstrating Rulk's striking power, durability and endurance in combat. His striking power was pretty solid in these feats as, in scans 3,6,7-8 he gets some hits in on Angrir generating shockwaves with his blows or eliciting an obvious reaction from Angrir due to the force of his blows (see scan 9) Heck he even generates a little mini explosion with his punches in scan 7. Though he is obviously overpowered, Rulk gets a good share of blows in. And that doesn't come close to his best striking feat either.

More importantly, Rulk displays an insane level of durability and endurance to Angrir's attacks. He tanks Angrir's massively powerful hammer blows, devastating energy blasts and having the Avengers Tower collapse on him. Yet even whilst bleeding out with a swollen eye and a bruised, broken body, Rulk carries on fighting against Angrir to the bitter end. But the best durability feat Rulk exhibits is in tanking Angrir's final attack. It's not shown in the issue from where these scans are from but in another tie in issue to Fear Itself, Rulk's body is found from where Angrir punted him away.

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To be specific, he was found in Victory State Forest, Vermont after surviving an attack which sent him hurtling north at 700mph. If Google Maps is accurate, that's 341 miles away from where he was fighting Angrir. Now if Rulk can survive an attack like that, I'm sure he can survive Hercules' blows too.

I think we need to be careful how much Wonder Man we throw in here... Simon pretty much put the smack down on Rulk. but given Namors victories and stalemates against Savage Hulk i think its safe to say. however most of my feats from Namor have been much more recent then yours... Namor has been written much stronger now than he was before.

Yet Namor was still on the losing end against Sentry, was stalemated by Thing and had difficulty fighting a mind controlled Thor. He's still not quite as powerful as you make him out to be based on my arguments so far. And I've already countered your Wonder Man points in my post.

Im fully willing to admit that Hercules vs Thor is close either one can take a majority based on Battlefield, Equipment, and such. but if he doesnt have Mijonir the odds tip into Hercules' favor . Wonder Man vs Thor is what i use to reference this (i posted it earlier) he needed to use Mijonir to beat Simon. without Mijonir Thor is still a threat but... he lacks the brawling/skill feats most other bricks have. Meanwhile Hercules has demonstrated many times that he has skill in that area.

Again, you missed the point of my argument regarding the Blood and Thunder battle which was a very recent story and Thor vs Hercules fight too. Thor easily fought Hercules on an even plane landing numerous hits in their battle and when Hercules used some wrestling hold, he countered with a bolt of lightning to break that hold. Likewise, I've shown Rulk being capable of generating heat from his body and will go onto display his energy projection later on. Additionally, you haven't shown Hercules displaying that much H2H skill, at least not enough that Rulk cannot bypass with heat generation, energy projection or dirty tactics.

My point was that Rulk ,who is supposedly superior in every way to The Thing, came out with a broken arm while Grimm was fine. i am under no impression that Hercules would win against Phoenix Namor as it took some clever thinking from T'challa and the Avengers to really put him down.

That's a faulty double standard to use in justifying Rulk's greater damage against PF Namor than Grimm did. Namor did not think to break Grimm's arm as he did not engage PF Namor as ardently as Rulk did. You cannot base your illogical argument on Rulk receiving more damage than Grimm meaning that Rulk isn't as powerful as I claimed him to be because Rulk went into the fight more than The Thing did and Namor didn't go around breaking everyone's arms in that fight. It was a one off special treatment for Rulk who was closest to Namor at the time

As you said Colossonaut was trying to lose... when he became Cyttorak's avatar his entire mindset changed he no longer cared about destruction around him. this really doesnt help Rulk...

as you can see here... C-naut is pretty impervious to pain. so him coming back from the whole destruction mind-set may have affected him other ways we dont know. all we do know is that reasonable C-naut shouldn't have even felt Rulk's punches

Colossonaut did not have Cain's impenetrable forcefield though which has shielded Cain from practically every attack sent at him in the past. Colossonaut lacked that ability so only had his form's natural durability to work with. Even Cain's durability could be affected by physical attacks as demonstrated when Thor removed Cain's forcefield then started attacking Cain physically, actually managing to harm him with his punches.

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And it's easy to contradict your claim that Colossonaut didn't feel Rulk's blows by citing this scan which states "With two superheated thumbs, the Avengers make everything unreasonable."Ample evidence that Colossonaut did indeed feel Rulk's blows.

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and what you are doing to Namor, Wonder Man, and Hercules is... youre trying to tell me that Namor getting one-shotted isn't low-balling? or against Wonder Man? (who choked out Red Hulk while under normal power) lets play it fair then.

It seems obvious that we've done enough playing around with other characters in this debate and my post does enough of that too. So I'm afraid I'll round off my argument by posting Rulk's best striking and durability feats alongside Rulk's ranged attacks.

Rulk's Best Striking Feat

From Hulk #3, Rulk is fighting A Bomb aka Rick Jones who's somehow become a Class 100 brick. The two titans tussle, throw each other around and Rulk even fires a turret at A Bomb as a makeshift machine gun. But the most important part of the fight are these two scans where Rulk generates 8.0, 9.0 and even 10.0 magnitude Earthquakes with his punches on A Bomb

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And there are 3 reasons why this is such a badass striking feat for Rulk

Reason 1

This striking feat is actually comparable to how hard Juggernaut was punching Bruce Banner's Bannershields in Incredible Hulks #602

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It's also comparable to how hard Hulk was hitting some Gamma irradiated boars in Incredible Hulk #3

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Reason 2

If you take a lot at how much power an Earthquake packs, I can guarantee you'll be quite impressed with the power of Rulk's punches here. In this screenshot from the Department of Conservation of California, it states

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Basically, Rulk's striking power ranged between 6.27 million tons of TNT to 15 gigatons of TNT. That's the equivalent 15,495,000,000 tons which happens to be around 310 Tsar Bombs Nukes, the most powerful nuke ever detonated by men which holds between 50-58 megatons.

(Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale#Examples for TNT conversion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bombafor the nuke's potential.)

Reason 3

In the same storyline which this feat is from, it's also mentioned that the punches Rulk and Hulk threw triggered the San Andreas fault which started the descent of San Francisco into the sea.

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I think that sums up the entirety of why I left those striking feats as my trump card. Rulk's punches were capable of triggering a fault that was leading to an entire city falling into the ocean. If Hercules is as tough as you're claiming to be, that means Rulk will break out these level of punches all the sooner. And unless you have a striking feat for Hercules that beats punches registering Magnitude 8-10 Earthquakes on the Seismic Scale or the equivalent of 310 Tsar Bombs, Rulk has the feats for superior striking power. Physical strength does not equate to the same level of striking power and though Hercules is physically stronger than Rulk, Rulk has the feats to prove he hits harder too.

Rulk's Best Durability Feat

Fortunately, this section will be kept shorter than the last one since I don't need many words to show how impressive this is. In a fight against the normal street level Red Hood, Rulk gets punched in the face by Red Hood. Who also had The Power Gem, the Infinity Stone granting the wielder infinite might, in his possession.

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Yet Rulk still survives this hit and is even conscious enough by the time he reaches The Avengers to mumble the word infinity.

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Alongside the 700 mph hit from Angrir, this is definitive proof of the extent of Rulk's durability. If he can tank a hit from a Power Gem wielding user to the face, it's clear he's going to be able to endure what Hercules can throw at him.

Rulk's Best Fight

This is an edited in part of my final reply but I thought that you'd be interested to see one of Rulk's best fights when he takes on most of the Dark Avengers all at once. Including the 70 tonner God of War Ares, the Class 100 Ionic powered Wonder Man and the man with the power of 100 million exploding suns, the Sentry. And he does very well against them all, especially Sentry at the start of the fight and all 3 of the team's powerhouses at the end.

Sentry fought Red Hulk along with Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man, Black Widow and Ares in Hulk Smash Avengers #5...

So I guess Rulk isn't the only one to have fought The Dark Avengers like Hercules has and done well against them.

Rulk's Ranged Advantages

I need to wrap things up so I'll speedily get to the point. Not only is Rulk extremely effective up close but his energy absorption powers grant him impressive energy projection too. DISCLAIMER: I am only using this scan to explain how Rulk's powers work, not as evidence that he could ever do this feat on Silver Surfer

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Since this is how Rulk's energy absorption works, what's to stop him from absorbing Hercules' energy then unleashing this kind of attack against him?

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There's little to stop Rulk from using Hercules' own power against him in an attack fuelled by the god's own might. And if he can absorb enough to pull off that little nuclear level attack, there's no guarantee it won't drastically affect Hercules' state in the battle. He isn't as durable as The Green Scar incarnation of Hulk that Rulk fought after all.

Alternatively, Rulk can also use the patented Hulk Family Thunderclap. How powerful is it? Mighty enough to SCARE THE DREADED SEAGULLS!

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Oh and Rulk has also used the Thunderclap to dissipate a tornado

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Now I wonder who else has been deafened by a Hulk powered Thunderclap?

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Final Conclusions

  • Hercules' physical strength advantage has now been counteracted by Rulk's superior striking power. Since Rulk has the punching power equivalent to Magnitude 8-10 Earthquakes or 310 Tsar Bombs, it's undoubtedly clear that Rulk can make The Lion of Olympus feel the sting of his blows in battle. And you've shown nothing of Hercules' striking power which matches this feat.
  • Hercules' skill and wrestling edge can be nullified by Rulk's army trained tactical mind alerting him to the possibility of such a move. His body's natural heat generation could also make his skin uncomfortably hot for Hercules to grip onto or Rulk's propensity to use dirty tactics could get him out of Hercules' grip.
  • Rulk's greater durability and damage soaking against powerful opponents such as Angrir or scrappy but deadly street levellers like Wolverine substantiate the statement that Rulk can endure what Hercules can throw at him and dish it right back. Coupled with Rulk's healing factor which can regrow eyes and mend skin and Rulk has the necessary abilities to stay in the fight. The same cannot be said for Hercules though.
  • Furthermore, Rulk possesses the limited ranged advantage to boot. His energy absorption and re-projection could come in quite handy to use Hercules' own energy against him. Or Rulk could pull out some thunderclaps which, in the past, have been capable of hurting and deafening Hercules in his previous fight with Hulk.
  • Taken together, Rulk has all the right attributes to win this fight. Though Hercules would make him work for it due to his superior strength and fighting skill, Rulk has all the other cards to win this fight in a statistical majority.

Your turn to make the final post Kidman. And well played too :)

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cosmicallyaware1

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Very well done, tag me for voting please.

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