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#1 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

so me and cosmic are already in a bunch of other CaVs and we were feeling overwhelmed so we decided to say "its a smart idea to do another one" so without further ado

Kidman560- Namor

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Imperious Rex b!tches

Cosmicallyaware1- Wonder Man

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this Joker

Da Rules

Current Namor (pic might be misleading) fully hydrated w/special suit

Morals On/ In character

Fish Jokes are allowed if they are good and they make me laugh ( i see "ducklips" and someone gets punched in the face)

Win by Death/KO/Incap

Battle Takes place in New York Park on the Golf Course (for the lolz) but it can pretty much go anywhere

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can the prince of Atlantis finish this fight in enough time to also spit in Scotts face and spend time with the Blonde? we shall see

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this was included because of my deep deep hatred of Scott Summers... may he burn in (dang kids site)

Battle Begin

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#2 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: lol, priceless brah. It's on. I get outta work in an hour, have my Intro up in a few or more.....

Get ready for the Man of Wonders ladies and Gentlemen........Simon Williams!!!

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#4 Posted by Pettus (171 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Eisenfauste (17366 posts) - - Show Bio

What two people from the tourney I'm in are pitted against each other!!!!

Tag this should be enjoyable.

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#6 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21: you know it... after this you and me need to do one as well its been too long.

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#8 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor King Of Atlantis

as you can see Namor was Marvels very first mutant (kind of weird as he doesnt really fit the bill for mutants but whatevs)

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Namor smash..

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Namor smash Hercules and its not even in the water for most of it

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Namor smash Puny Hulk... again...

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Namor beats the crap out of Cage, 1 shots She Hulk (damn... payback after what she did to him) then goes on to stalemate Thing... there never was a determinable winner (unfortunately its most likely that Namor would have won)

but still he 1 shoted She Hulk

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1. Namor breaks Crimson Bands of Cytorrak (buy than again who hasnt broken those)

2. lifts and smashes a Destroyer

3. Lifts a Submarine

and he did it all before Aquaman made it "cool"

What have we established so far?

well to sum it up "Namor Smash"

but in a much greater Detail he has some of the best striking feats in being able to go toe to toe with Hercules and Hulk, 2 of the strongest (physically) guys Marvel has to offer.

But wait theres more: This is why i like him so much

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Namor tanks a point Blank "No Visor" Optic Blast from Cyclops and to further Summers' embarrassment

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Emma Frost chose him first... not Crybaby Summers

freakin Cyclops

To Sum Up

Namor Good

Wonder Man Bad

Cyclops Ugly

@cosmicallyaware1

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#9 Edited by oceanmaster21 (15182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: sorry bro, been busy at work. As soon as I get a chance, I will put my into up!

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#11 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Veitha (4154 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my god, you're mocking Scott Summers and treating Miss Frost as a throphy :O that's not cool u.u

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#13 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha said:

Oh my god, you're mocking Scott Summers and treating Miss Frost as a throphy :O that's not cool u.u

lol thank you.... thank you i try real hard (just dont let @god_spawn see this)

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#14 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: Oi you haven't commented in our CAV when it's your turn :P Been mounting up the commitments I see.

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#15 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@kidman560: Oi you haven't commented in our CAV when it's your turn :P Been mounting up the commitments I see.

another thing im fairly good at... going now

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#16 Posted by Kingant27 (16662 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting please

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#17 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 i miss you come back

Lol, sorry.......been tied up with family stuff. Started building my intro on fri but had to save cuz couldn't get it finished before I left work. I'll try and finish tonight, but.......I have wine and a movie. If I don't get to it tonight then fir sure first thing after I get to work tomorrow morning/afternoon.

Sorry brah.

But this intro/opener will blow all others away.....put more info than usual.....epicness at its finest my man.

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#19 Posted by Veitha (4154 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha said:

Oh my god, you're mocking Scott Summers and treating Miss Frost as a throphy :O that's not cool u.u

lol thank you.... thank you i try real hard (just dont let @god_spawn see this)

he won't like it

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#20 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: alrighty bro, let's dive in shall we? (lol, get it.......dive? water joke? hehe)

Introduction!!!

Presenting: Simon Williams......the ionic Powerhouse known as WONDER MAN!!!

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that's right. Him. The man whose fist's striking power have been compared to the fury of Mjolnir. The Man of Wonders himself.

Simon Williams was made into a being of pure ionic energy by Baron Zemo and became the impossibly powerful Wonder Man. Meant to aid the Masters of Evil in their campaign against the Avengers, Wonder Man instead found himself sympathizing with the heroes and joined their team instead. He has remained an Avengers mainstay ever since.

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Brief History......

He has quite the history with the Avengers.

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first appearance: Avengers #9.

In the Silver Age, Wonder Man made his first and only major appearance of the time in one of the earliest issues of The Avengers. He was largely portrayed as a villain up until the issue's end when he instead aided the Avengers which led to his death. Joining the Avengers as an infiltrator, Wonder Man is notable as the second new recruit to the Avengers (following Captain America) and is also technically the first Avenger to die - although his death was later retconned.

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In the Bronze Age, Wonder Man was brought back from the dead, first briefly as a pawn of Kang the Conqueror, and secondly permanently by the machinations of his brother and Black Talon. Following his revival, his membership with the Avengers became more legitimate as he served with them for an extended period of time.....

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and later became a founding member of their West Coast division.

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Over the years, Wonder Man has been involved with many of the Avengers most remembered story arcs and has had a few notable characters arcs of his own told across several years. Beginning with his redemption and resurrection, Wonder Man spent a lot of his time battling his own fear of dying again and his relationship with his brother Eric Williams and his "brother" the Vision. Later, Wonder Man pursued an on-again-off-again career as an actor to varying degrees of success which he still is seen occasionally pursuing to this day. Perhaps the most notable ongoing character story for Wonder Man was the character's unrequited love for the Scarlet Witch and the "love triangle" which formed between him, Vision and the Scarlet Witch. While his feelings for the Scarlet Witch still tend to factor in his current stories, Wonder Man has also had serious relationships with Amora the Enchantress and Alex Flores. More recently a relationship between Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel was toyed with but ultimately went abandoned.

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Recently in the pages of Uncanny Avengers, Simon appears to have entered the realm of the unliving once more, and his fate is up in the air.

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ok, that's enough background story I imagine. Let's get into what Wonder Man can do.................

Statistics!!!!

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fist off, let;s take a look at regular form Simon (non-Ionic)

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Strength!

So as stated before, Wonder Man is High Tier Strength Bracket, and right on par with Namor actually. He was one of the beings selected to participate against Champion in a "strong man competition" in Marvel Two In One Annual #7 (along with Lame-or) that featured the upper echelon of strength based characters in the Marvel U at the time.

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scan showings: 1) old school comparison of "heavy hitters" in the Marvel U 2) - the rest = some pages from MTIOA7, not all, just some examples

The are right in that ambiguous "class 100" range that Marvel employs and means that an individual can lift/press in excess of 100 tonnes. A person'sstriking power can vastly differ in that category and coupled with their durability and damage soak.......is really the kicker and game changer. Here I will get into some general strength feats and will cover striking power in later section highlighting individual fights with other High Tier individuals.

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what scans illustrate: 1) Holding aloft the weight of a 46 story building. Yes, It ended up crumbling, but Simon was successful for a bit..... 2) Lifting weights set to "Thor level" that Ms.Marvel (Carol) could not.... 3) Stabilizing and lifting to some degree (even brief) the entire brunt weight of Avengers Hydrobase Island 4) resisting a stamp press machine that was exerting the pressure (stated it was set at) of 50,000 (Fifty Thousand) tons!!! even though, I don't think it was up to that level 5) damaging (by enough straight force) Ultron (even though in later showing, it's shown that he is not damaging the straight Adamantium...just the parts holding it together....still durable)

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Durability!

SImon is one extremely durable being. Especially due to his Ionic nature.....he's very tough to damage. I really don't see what Namor will be able to do to Simon in lieu of damage. Simon's resilience is substantial and has tussled with Namor before. I will go into deeper detail of some significant fights Simon has had in a little bit, this is just a little started (surface scratcher lol....)

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what scans illustrate: 1) tanking energy projection from Apocalypse amped Grim Reaper (horseman) 2) tanking energy output from Ultron....easily 3) states can resist crushing force blows from adamantium and Ultron agrees..... 4) bulletproof. minor feat. 5) - 6) tanking punishment from Gladiator and even being drilled into the planet with blows 7) takin damage from Savage Hulk, without any lasting damage 8) getting crushed by tons of increased Gravity pressure from Mr Franklin Hall , the almighty Graviton himself.....

there's lots more, but this should be enough to get us started....... take this "mean mugg" shot at you "Lamor".......

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Speed and Reflexes...

Simon is not necessarily known for being fast or having substantial enhanced reflexes......

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however that does not mean that he is not fast, nor does he not have substantial skills.

Ionic Form

ahhhhhhh the Ionic form. Basically an Energy based composition (think Superman Blue without the fine tuned energy control). Not that many showings and highlighted mostly in a Perez reboot era of the Avengers (Photonic shield cap, crappy Iron Man armor, Squadron Supreme, Firestar and Justice, Thunderbolts.....), however it is still highlighted that Simon ain't really human. He has been jokingly referred to as a type "magic genie" created and controlled by Wanda after Simon's 2nd/3rd death(?)...(i lose track sometimes and have ta look it up).

The point being, he's even more difficult to harm in Ionic form. Unless your some type of either: magician, reality warper, energy siphoner......all of with Namor is not.

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scans descriptions: 1) general pic Ionic 2) tusslin with Atlas 3) general pic Ionic 4) little more current 5) another general Ionic 6) era Avengers (Busiek/Perez run) Ionic form was predominant Simon

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Noteworthy instances

Simon has had some epic fights throughout the years against some very respectable individuals. Let's talk about a few real quick to get started, and will save the rest for later.

1) Vs. Thor

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wow. taking repeated blows by Thor, and Thor cannot put Simon down by blows alone and needs to resort to strong energy empowered Asgardian fury of Mjolnir. Simon had Thor on the ropes here and pulled it outta his arse.......

Sorry, I just don't see Namor packin that type striking power.

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looks to me like Thor easily took Namor out while Simon resisted these type blows over and over again. hmmmmmmmm.....

2) Vs. Vision

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impressive. especially considering that this was early in his career and still had yet to mature fully in his abilities. Showcases fantastic durabilty and constitution. The two became bros later on......after some more "tiffs"

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lol, just some randomity.............i always LOVED THIS FRIGGIN WHAT IF? STORY!!!!!! If you are a fan of the characters......check it out. sorry....back on topic....ahem....

3) Vs. .............Namor?! lol..................

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pretty clear here already whom the victor will be but I'll humor ya pal.

Ladies Skills...

Well then.................now Simon clearly has superior mackin skills. Sure, Namor pulled off Susan Richards. Don't get me wrong....that's mad street cred there, for sure. However, Simon has pulled in better numbers and serious hotties himself.

Simon's braggin rights......

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1) jus bein a stud, ladies looooooove simon 2) for sure 3) hope he did if he had the chance 3) probably, she's kinda a slut 5) mos def 6) once again, hope he did if he had a chance 6) yeah...... 7) probably, see #3

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and Namor did "Imperious Sex" that Fishy Queen thing, sooooo........um yeah.....

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In Conclusion..................

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Namor is a complete and utter DBAG................

Simon is just simply...............a Wonder, lol. As American as Apple Pie and Baseball. Namor.....foreign, fishy/smelly, a real arse, nor good at baseball. boooooooo......

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back over to you my main man!

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#22 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: think you may have forgotten to tag me but if you did and i missed it I apologize (ima go post in my debate with Lvenger cuz i been putting that off for a while then come here)

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#23 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol

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#24 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Lol

what? Dondave lols? no way. no but seriously whats so funny?

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#25 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: not bad

Round 2

lol one of the few Trading Cards from 1991 i posses
lol one of the few Trading Cards from 1991 i posses

the power ratings are a little off but this was also in 1991

History

since my first post was strongly dedicated to posting scans ( I like to hold the delusion that i'll post them all at once and then reference them but i still post them a second time anyways so its like whelp I'm an idiot) i'd like to point out some history

Did you know Namor is one of the few characters with over 70 years of publishing? so expect the condensed version

back in 1915 a man named Ernest Shackleton was sent by the great Winston Churchill (the brilliant bloke) to the Antarctic in search of Vibranium. The ship was lost. Later a man named Leonard McKenzie went in search of it, and he ran into none other than Namor's future mother Princess Fen. when Fen gave birth the child was named "Namor" which means "Avenging Son"

Did you know he fought with Captain America and Jim Hammond against the Nazis... yeah this guy caught them diving near Atlantis so the rational thing to do was attack every single one affiliated with them (not that im complaining)

It was Namor who threw Caps frozen body into the Ocean when the Avengers happened upon it.

a bunch of minor crap happened ya know Namor was king for a bit and then he wasnt, and then he was king again, and then he wasnt

until he came across Marina from the best Team ever "Alpha Flight" until she turned evil and had to kill her (tragic i know Namor was real broken up about it after he sent her corpse flying through Osborn's office

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yeah hes got strong morals...

ya know he was part of the old school Defenders really boring and all

Civil War Era

Namor was for Captain America... the end no but he did help Cap out with his awesome Atlantean Army

Fear Itself

Defenders were reunited to stop Attuma who had been given one of the Worth Hammers...

Avengers vs X-men

I'm sure you know where Marvels First Mutant stood here... he even became on of the Phoenix Five... broke Rulks arm.

Collision of Alternate Universes

i have learned the King T'challa and Shuri are giant butt holes... while Black Panther and Namor were off discussing peace Wakandans attacked and destroyed Atlantis. Shuri is the biggest giant butt hole of them all. this kind of led to Namor telling Proxima Midnight that the Infinity Gems were in Wakanda

like i said Giant Butt Holes.

Back to The Fight

Speed

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1. Namor dodges a bullet

2. Namor dodges Sonic Waves

3. Namor keeps pace with a thrown Mijonir, (also notice he was the only one with the balls to attack head on)

youve already seen how fast he can fly when he saved Emma

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It is Generally believed that Wolverine is faster than most Bricks (though i have some misgivings about that) Namor seems to do fine here... Also he didnt seem to hurt from Wolverines Claws he just knew there was Water there so he could heal

Factors of The Fight

Morals

as ive shown Namor has no Morals... or he does just ya know ignores them like a boss.

Namor will start of Swinging... Simon on the other hand is far to kind and sporting (when he isnt being mind controlled for like the Bajillonth time)

Water

I don't know if you noticed but there's some Water Nearby (oh dont give me that look you pulled out Ionic Form which i knew you would)

when this fight gets to Water, and i say when not if, Namor will own

His healing factor in water allowed him to heal from wolverines Claws.

Comparison Feats

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first off he tanks Thors hammer. Second off he shows great flying agility. (which will be how he gets to the Water)

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Namor vs Hercules... he does quite well compared to how Wonder Man did against Herc no?

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Namor has a very good track record (compared to most) against the Hulk... meanwhile i seem to remember Grey Hulk putting the smack down on the West Coast Avengers (including Wonder Man)

Conclusion

Namor has better Feats hes done Respectable against Savage Hulk and beaten him twice.

I haven't seen Wonder Man in his Ionic Form allot and even less when his Morals were on.

Namor gets to water and this is all over...

But why he really wins

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whens the last time you seen anyone take a good looking picture like that on an ID card. and that Address.

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#26 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: right on pal, however..........

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weak sauce......................meh.............seen ya do better.

be back soon with the visit to.................Rebuttal and Counter Town!!!!!

oooooh................ahhhh.................really cuz, the first was an opener and it's my response to your proposed strategy, then we'll call it............

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#27 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: promise I didn't forget ya bro..................I spent all day finishing my reply to wyldsong for our Grey Hulk/PITT CaV (and posted finally) and worked on reply for this one a bit. I really wanted to get this posted today as well but I'm whooped now, but I have the rest of this written/planned out and will finish up tomorrow at work.

*make sure ya reply to this so I don't get bogged down by the 2 post count in a row thingy ;)

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#28 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: no problem i still need to reply to @lvenger (again) we need to finish Herc vs Rulk and i feel like its coming to a close pretty soon

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#29 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: Agreed, I was only planning on one or two more replies anyway. We both have other things to do on here and in our own lives and I've almost said everything I can on Red Hulk. His feats aren't as robust as Hercules' so I have to make them count in my arguments.

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#30 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: bro............i have been crazy busy lately. stupid real life! I will get to this ASAP, so sorry, i have not forgotten

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#31 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: let's get back to this shall we?

The details of Namor's beat down................

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alrighty then. Time to cook some seafood.

So we've established that these are two upper echelon "bricks". cool. If we really do a side by side comparison at the base levels we're lookin at something like:

  • Strength = arguable, but pretty damn even.
  • Durability = i'm giving Simon the edge here. Especially if Ionic is in play.
  • Fighting Ability = meh. Namor has more battlefield experience and longer history, yet Wondy was trained in H2H by Cap.
  • Flight = even.
  • Energy Projection = Namor has none, soooo....
  • Intelligence = Simon by far.
  • Versatility = Wondy, hands down.

All in all not too bad, with Simon barely tipping the scales. Actually not a bad match up. So we start to look in other areas we normally wouldn't for advantages like you have stated (morals, Namor reaching water amperage, etc...) so I will begin to address my own points on why Wondy prevails here......

Why does Simon win here?

Quite simple..............Namor is a DBAG. That's why. Simon comes out on top because Namor has so much bad Karma.

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In all seriousness though.............just feeling that Simon has the edge in durability and all around statistics. Let's look at some rebuttal points......

Namor will start of Swinging... Simon on the other hand is far to kind and sporting (when he isnt being mind controlled for like the Bajillonth time

Simon is a true gentlemen unlike Namor (refer to previous DBAG labeling), and a sporting chap, you are correct. However he is a no holds brawler whom will take the fight to any measure for a victory. He's so dang powerful though that he can be less aggressive andstill get the job done.

Let's take a look at when Simon fought Abomination......

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West Coast Avengers 25.

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not too shabby (even though Simon got beat on pretty good in the fight and a bit wore out at the end) all in all against ol Abomination. Even though a bit of a jobber, he was Hulk strength and durability level.

so that looks pretty good in Simon's striking power defense considering this right?..................

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lol, no seriously though...............

and he's really not always that nice..........

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moving on...............

It is Generally believed that Wolverine is faster than most Bricks (though i have some misgivings about that) Namor seems to do fine here... Also he didnt seem to hurt from Wolverines Claws he just knew there was Water there so he could heal

ahhhhh. wolverine. ............thank you for bringing that up. see below.

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I would say that Simon is doing well enough in the speed department here to not even let Logan's claws touch him. Even so.....Simon is not regular flesh and blood....fueled by Ionic Energy. Gettin cut would do absolutely nothing.

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See? and just a quick little statement to cap it off.....

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Factors of the Fight

for me it would be:

Ionic Form: powers and versatility

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When Simon is in Ionic form, I link it similarly to going Super Saiyan. Simon is stronger, faster and enhanced flight speed, more durable (heck, it's near impossible to harm him physically in this form), and has energy projection. I don't see why that wouldn't tip the scales (heh. scales. get it? fish joke...) in Simon's favor

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morals? lol.....that's questionable territory. Simon wrestles with the notion......

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Comparison Feats

Thor.

I shall also use this as an example as you have as well. Wonder Man's fist have ever been compared to the striking power of Mjolnir for starters. There is a history between Wondy living beneath Thor's "shadow" in his role on the Avengers roster (strong-guy archetype). And it's always interesting to see the comparison between Wondy/Thor/Count Nefaria (another Ionic empowered being). But I used the example previously and will use it again here,the matchup between Thor and Wondy from West Coast Avengers Annual 2...

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Wonder Man was really "hitting his stride" so to speak during this time period and very confident. It really showcases his Durability and Striking Power well. He tanked many repeated blows by Thor to the point that Thor HAD to use Mjolnir for a victory......he could not beat Simon by H2H striking Power. And on the flip side, Wondy was rainin blows on the Odinson enough to cause him serious concern as well.

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and as far as Thor and Namor are concerned............didn't Thor one shot Namor, when Namor was even wet and in rain? Laaaaame.............

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I wouldn't really have wanted to use Thor as a comparative point if I were you but, whatever.........

Hercules.

well, you asked how Wondy has faired against Hercules previously? All in all not too bad.....

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In classic Avengers runs they tussled a bit, and Herc may have thrown around a bit more weight....but Simon was never really any worse off.

When they have .............................encountered each other a bit more recently it was quite the unique situation. Ares manipulated the encounter and really had Simon along to distract Herc. And Simon states in a round about way that there is the possibility that he could kill Herc if possible.

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Ares is quite the devious snake y'know.....

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and it's not like Simon was having trouble with Herc physically before Herc got all "bloodlusted" from being poisoned. It's like Herc was on PCP after being shot. And Simon just got beat up a bit, but it's not like he was really fighting back. delicate situation.

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heck Ares knows how Bad-Ass Simon is.............just look at him with the "mad respect" look he's givin Simon against Iron Man drones....

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So really Simon versus Herc has not shown a true sway either way. Simon easily holds his own.

Hulk. Smart and Savage. Grey. Rulk.....quite a few actually

I glad you brought up the Hulk actually. Namor has had quite a few run ins with Banner. Simon has had a few. Heck they even had some run ins side by side with Bruce. Let me talk about some of Simon's encounters with the Hulk.

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Savage Hulk (x2)

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Incredible Hulk 316 / Incredible Hulk 321-322

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in Hulk 316 ;

one of my most favorite issues of all time, definitely in my top 10. Great artwork, great story and showcased a bunch of my favorite characters at the time.

What occurred here is that 4 of the Avengers heaviest hitters took on Savage/Bannerless Hulk. Iron Man and Wonder-Man from the West Coast Avengers

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and Hercules and Namor from the East Coast Division.

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Not any of them really had any substantial feats to speak of, and sure as heck did not cause any harm to Hulk. Then Samson entered the scence and it became even more complicated as he engaged the Avengers as well.

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now, the points of consideration here:

  • Simon was able to hold his ground and tank some punishment whereas Namor was casually knocked aside by Hulk.
  • Samson laid both Simon and Namor on their ass with a suckerpunch. I would call this comparison roughly equal.
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In Hulk 321-322:

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Hulk took on all Avengers here.

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combined might of Namor, Hercules, She Hulk, Iron Man, Wonder Man, and all the rest.

and the relevant part that Simon played in this? Hulk got his hands on him at one point and Simon was able to persevere without substantial damage

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and was able to continue the fight with the rest. Once again, say this is a draw in the comparison that could be made for Simon's strength and durability against Namor, Hercules, or She Hulk

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Professor Hulk

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Wonder Man Vol 2. 26

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considering that the Professor Hulk incarnation was more of an adept fighter, this is an interesting showing. Simon holding his own here is respectable, and the Hulk seems to respect Simon .

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Grey Hulk

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Hulk Smash Avengers 4

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ok. We all know that Grey Hulk is a bit weaker than the previously mention incarnations of the Hulk. What's relevant here is first off, that Pyramid that Simon holding aloft weight some serious tonnage. And if that hit knocking Simon away is any indication of Fixit's striking power, than it's testament of Simon's durability to say the least.

Plus considering that Fixit has layed the KO to Abomination, well them Simon did OK.

*Bonus round* Red Hulk

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Avengers Vol 4. 31

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Not only did Simon exhibit great durability here (considering some of Rulk's PIS KO feats and striking power...), he was able to manage a KO in on Rulk. That's substantial.

In Conclusion

Wondy has exhibited more than enough to take Namor out. He has the strength and durability to take a win here, and the Ionic upgrade just pushes it over the top for the edge.

game.set.match.

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#32 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: damn you and your long posts but lets get it on!

Round 2

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  • Strength = arguable, but pretty damn even.
  • Durability = i'm giving Simon the edge here. Especially if Ionic is in play.

id give it to Namor since theres a body of Water.

  • Fighting Ability = meh. Namor has more battlefield experience and longer history, yet Wondy was trained in H2H by Cap.

both are brawlers but Namor should have more technical skill

  • Flight = even.

Namor was keeping pace with Mijonir hes also moved at the speed of sound without trying.

  • Energy Projection = Namor has none, soooo....

i could go old school and pull out the lightning feat but he hasnt done that recently so ill pass

  • Intelligence = Simon by far.
  • Versatility = Wondy, hands down.

Let's take a look at when Simon fought Abomination......

a hefty feat no doubt but still Abom seems to job to everyone who isnt Bruce Banner (Hulk)

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Red She-Hulk

She-Hulk

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ahhhhh. wolverine. ............thank you for bringing that up. see below.

Simons Ionic Form should protect him from most attacks meant to slash or pierce blunt force will be more present here

Thor

I shall also use this as an example as you have as well. Wonder Man's fist have ever been compared to the striking power of Mjolnir for starters. There is a history between Wondy living beneath Thor's "shadow" in his role on the Avengers roster (strong-guy archetype). And it's always interesting to see the comparison between Wondy/Thor/Count Nefaria (another Ionic empowered being). But I used the example previously and will use it again here,the matchup between Thor and Wondy from West Coast Avengers Annual 2...

Thor is marvels baby. kind of like Green Lantern for DC.

and as far as Thor and Namor are concerned............didn't Thor one shot Namor, when Namor was even wet and in rain? Laaaaame.............

this scan does seem to get thrown around allot. the problem is... ITS OLD (ima get to your factors of the fight last)

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Hercules whos bare hand striking feats are superior to Thors couldnt do it

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Sentry couldnt do it

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More recently Thor couldnt do it

and it's not like Simon was having trouble with Herc physically before Herc got all "bloodlusted" from being poisoned. It's like Herc was on PCP after being shot. And Simon just got beat up a bit, but it's not like he was really fighting back. delicate situation.

yeah your only consolation prize is Ares looked just as bad! lol

Not only did Simon exhibit great durability here (considering some of Rulk's PIS KO feats and striking power...), he was able to manage a KO in on Rulk. That's substantial.

as @lvenger has said that was Simon at a point where his powers were fluctuating. he single handily took on the Avengers during this time also.

About the Hulk

because both have had their showings but i cant believe your brought up Grey Hulk... it seems like that would downplay Simon more than boost him. Grey Hulk is arguably Hulks weakest incarnation and Simon struggling with him is not very impressive at all

Namor seems to have no problems engaging Savage Hulk whether in Water or out of Water

But wait... Theres a small difference

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Namor fights Hulk on his own... he doesnt have a bunch of teammates to help him out.

there are plenty of other fights where he is fighting the Hulk on his own but i didnt want to make this super long.

Now My Comparisons

Ionic Energy

seems like a key point eh... well Namor has come across Radiation before and he seems to have no problem hurting it

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he seemed to have no problem combating Radioactive Man who is pretty much pure energy now. I see no reason why Namor should be affected by Simons energy

Speed and the Silver Surfer

Namor has the speed key here

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he by no means beat the Silver Surfer (in fact he got owned) but he dragged the Surfer into the Water and then tanked several attacks from him and was still conscious, and theres a body of water nearby

My Key Factors

Water.

theres water nearby. Namros fast enough to take the battle there and in water he is superior. if he gets this to Water he will win (and he will get this to water)

Speed

Namor is faster here.

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hes fast enough to dodge bullets, move at the speed of sound, and he can travel faster than that. a bull rush into the water is a distinct possibility

The Winner

Namors speed will allow him to take this fight to the Water and in the water he will win this

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#33 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: ok brah, just finally read this. Didn't get the tag for some reason, oh well...................

In all honesty bro.........not that impressed with that reply, I've seen you do much better. Anyway, I will have response up as soon as I can.

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#34 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: hey brother, I'm pretty much done with this one.....ready to move onto other things. I think I've said pretty much all I have to say though. Let's open this to voting.....

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#35 Posted by KingVenus (7522 posts) - - Show Bio

This is still going on

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#36 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by JediXMan (42095 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#40 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15182 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: HAS _MY VOTE HE PRESENTED NAMOR GOOD AND MADE BELIEVE NAMOR COULD TRULY BEAT ABOMINATION. IT WOULDNT BE EASY BUT SERRURE WON IT FOR ME

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#46 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

give me some time so I can read everything and vote.

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#47 Posted by RIKR2 (21215 posts) - - Show Bio

after reading all i think im going to vote for Namor

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#48 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm after rereading this debate, I have to give my vote to @cosmicallyaware1 for the more convincing argument and well rounded counters. His comparisons were exceptionally on point too and his use of evidence was more than enough to overshadow Serrue's scans.

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#49 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, this has been a good debate between two guys I get along with and respect. I hate choosing between the two of you, but this isn't meant to be anything personal. This is just purely a decision based on who swayed me more in this instance. My vote goes to @cosmicallyaware1 this time. While I think you both showed great knowledge and great use of scans, cosmic's counters and comparisons were exceedingly on point, and quite effective.

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#50 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@rikr2: @oceanmaster21: thanks for the votes guys, appreciate you taking the time to read the match! Hope it was a good read.....

@wyldsong: @lvenger: gents.......your words honor me. A vote from respected individuals such as yourselves humble me. thanks.

@serrure: alright brother, the official count thus far:

Me: 2

You: 2