Kidman560- (Thing Aka "Pebbles")
vs
Cosmicallyaware1 (Wonder Man aka Blunder Man)
Morals On
Standard Gear (oh wait...)
Win by Death, KO, Incap
Battle takes place in an empty New York street. No civilians around.
Miss anything?
CaV Kidman560 vs Cosmicallyaware1 Done
Ben Grimm
my biggest question is what has Wonder Man done that proves he can even hurt Ben here, Ben is much more durable than Colossus; this was proven during the fight with the Champion. Colossus only lasted two punches while the Thing lasted three whole rounds.
his durability is further displayed when he takes a rather nice hit from Abraxas and after this he got up and was just fine.
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The Thing has also gone toe to toe with Hercules
so now that Things durability has been cleared up, we should move on to strength
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Thing is easily a class 100 just like Simon but Thing does it consistently (Simons only major strength feat is lifting up that Island with Invisible Womans help)
So i am really interested to see how Simon is going to pull out against "Pebbles" because i honestly dont see how
@kidman560: alright, from watching your debates previously....i know we're in for the long haul here so I'm gonna take my time.
my biggest question is what has Wonder Man done that proves he can even hurt Ben here,
great question. A lot of it is probably going to be speculation arguments and "________ has fought _______ before......" statements and scans. Wonderman and Thing has faced off against many of the same opponents before, numerous times. I will say a major factor in your favor is that Thing has been in many, many more showings and is one of Marvel's top lovable heroes. Not so much with Wondy. Fun arguing the underdog.
during the fight with the Champion
ok, as long as you mentioned that (which was I was pumped about as a kid.....my favorite strongmen characters all in one story...) It was the Thing's book!! Don't you think it would show him doing the best? but before I talk about it further, here's some scans...
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a lot of characters didn't really get to prove themselves in the fight and got disqualified. There's a lot I didn't post, and they are all in random order. Colossus was very young here and nowhere near the power levels/strength/durability he is nowadays. Wondy didn't even get to compete really as he was disqualified quickly, so we don't really know how he would've done (probably just a bit better than colossus!) heck...Thor got ousted quickly also (for having mjolnir). Thing got lumped up basically, but gotta give it to him for sticking in there.
so I guess you wanna talk about durability and strength huh? ok.....
DURABILITY
Simon has exhibited some pretty substantial durability feats (not saying that ben hasn't either....). I believe, if i recall correctly that he doesn't need to breathe or eat (will have to find that)...and ben obviously does (he stated the breathing air thing in AvX fight w/ colossonaut on moon), and his skin/hide is extemely durable (ben's is also) but there have been showings of ben's hide being substantially damaged (which there has not been showings of the same for simon)
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as far as some durability feats/showings for Simon.....
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(above) fight with Thor and had to be put down by Mjolnir (which we all know went right through a asgardian empowered Thing in Fear Itself)
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(above) taking punishment from abomination (who has beaten Hulk) and delivering KO (strength)
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(above) damn...outta order here...... #1,3,5 vs evil hyperion (shows durability, yes...did get but kicked/broke ribs...but he had to be drilled through planet and into a sun to be beaten) and 2,3 shows holding up to Gladiator (which ben has done also, yes) and durability being hammered into planet
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(above) 1/states immune to radiation....2/statement of near invulnerable skin (low showing, I know...).....3/good one tanking Ultron blasts
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(above) good durability vs. Grey Hulk (whom ben had to be in mutated form to stand up to......showings below)
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and continuing, important to note that Simon stood up to Savage Hulk without any major damage, whom Ben has had (with Hulk in general) a long standing rivalry with and many losses....
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(above) bit out of order again, and two seperate fights/occurances (put the cover in of one because it is one of my favorite covers)
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(above) interesting showing vs red hulk.
think that shows some interesting information all around. so we see he is quite durable and a good matchup for ben. Now I would like to go over some strength feats and info. It is already established that he is in class 100 strength (granted he jobs often and has low end feats as well, not denying that) and has gone toe to toe with the hulk, thor, gladiator, hercules (didn't show will later is need be...but in recent showing an enraged/bloodlusted "mad" herc that had been poisoned by ares definatley got the better of Simon) and others. He did have a couple matchups against ben also which i will cover in entirety later on (both were when he was mind controlled....once by Xemnu, and once by Puppet Master)
STRENGTH
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(above) 1/the lifting hydrobase one.....2/an old school classification list.....3/ 50,000 tons?
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(above) a fight with Namor and KO punches him (ben and Namor have quite the rivalry and many showings. how many times has ben KO'd him?)
whew! ok, I'm gonna take a break. will go over the ben/simon fights later and other stuff. see what you have to say about this for now.
@cosmicallyaware1: Interesting, very Interesting ( i so gotta start debating with Bricks more often they are fun, i am already set up to torrent/borrow Colossus, She-Hulk, and Sasquatch comics, Possibly Red Hulk (but i dont like him as much))
Simon has exhibited some pretty substantial durability feats (not saying that ben hasn't either....). I believe, if i recall correctly that he doesn't need to breathe or eat (will have to find that)...and ben obviously does (he stated the breathing air thing in AvX fight w/ colossonaut on moon), and his skin/hide is extemely durable (ben's is also) but there have been showings of ben's hide being substantially damaged (which there has not been showings of the same for simon)
all of those feats were either caused by a combination of poor writing and Adamantium or Dr.Doom (neither of which Simon would survive either nor does Simon have the necessary tools to harm him like the others did)
heres how most of the fights between Thing and Wolverine should play out
above) fight with Thor and had to be put down by Mjolnir (which we all know went right through a asgardian empowered Thing in Fear Itself)
but for some reason didnt go through him when Normal Thing and Thor fought also i can prove that normal things Durability was far greater than Angirs (Fear itselfs thing) ever was
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takes a beating form Terax (i know what you are thinking "he cant mean Terax the Tamer herald of Galactus" right?) well thats who it was and Thing (forgive the pun) clobbers him
(above) taking punishment from abomination (who has beaten Hulk) and delivering KO (strength)
no offense but no one except the Rhino jobs more than Abomination (i think Samson took him out once)
and durability being hammered into planet
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Thing Survives re-entry with absolutely no harm to himself
(above) good durability vs. Grey Hulk (whom ben had to be in mutated form to stand up to......showings below)
given recent showings which i am about to pull out i doubt he'd need to be mutated anymore
(above) interesting showing vs red hulk.
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Thing takes it to Rulk
(above) a fight with Namor and KO punches him (ben and Namor have quite the rivalry and many showings. how many times has ben KO'd him?)
I can one up ya
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Thing takes him out under-water (now granted that this was AvX and the entire concept was generally Sh!t
Now More Strength
stops a building that the hulk lifted and threw at him
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Now Thing absolutely humiliates Doom in three pages of awesome amazing artwork
This was around the time Sue started going Uber with her Force Fields (Not Celestial Uber, but Still Uber)
Durability
Now this is probably one of the best Brick Feats ever in history (Ben actually holds a few of those) this was Super Amped up Silver Surfer Doom
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takes his licks from the Sand Man and then gives them right back
Its like 2am and i need to get back to my Simpsons Marathon but this should hold for now... breathe in the awesomeness known as thing (allot of these comics were my dads or my granddads and you should see how i handle them, i make sure they are dusted before and after each reading, and i make people wash their hands if they are going to hold it.)
@kidman560: told ya bricks were cool. After this round I call dibs on Doc Samson, Colossus, and Sasquatch. Looks like we will have plenty of matchups!
but i digress, back to this.............
all of those feats were either caused by a combination of poor writing and Adamantium or Dr.Doom (neither of which Simon would survive either nor does Simon have the necessary tools to harm him like the others did)
maybe. the point of the showings was to show ben being injured. Interestingly enough......I can't find any showings of simon in similar situations. He is incredibly durable, and doesn't bleed. Leak ionic energy maybe. Interestingly enough, has mjolnir harmed ben in the past? i believe it has. Simon's fists have been stated as having the striking power of mjolnir (granted it was an older showing, but whatever). food for thought. (like the rock reference? hahahaha...."pebbles")
akes a beating form Terax (i know what you are thinking "he cant mean Terax the Tamer herald of Galactus" right?) well thats who it was and Thing (forgive the pun) clobbers him
big deal........herald showings besides Surfer's are inconsistent. Firelord was KO'd by Spidey before. Scan really doesn't show ben taking a "beating" per say.....ben punched him through a building. so what? just because a strength character can punch somebody hard does not equal a win or anything substantial. How many times has superman been hit really hard and knocked back or through something? does that mean the person who did it is an uber badass? no. moving on.......
no offense but no one except the Rhino jobs more than Abomination (i think Samson took him out once)
downplay it all you want, the feat stands and it's a good one. and Samson's no slouch, leave him alone. Like I said before, I'll use him in a CaV and we'll see about that!!!!
Thing takes him out under-water (now granted that this was AvX and the entire concept was generally Sh!t
ok. i thought you would be smart enough to NOT use this. first off.....thing gets a win here but not by KO! he traps/pins namor with some creature's tusks to the ground (lame! why didn't namor just yank them out?)....anyway.....in the first page namor punckes him so hard blood flies out ben's mouth. don't see that very often. So..............that kinda was a waste of time on your part. I still have a showing of simon KO punching namor, and you have yet to show one of ben accomplishing that.
stops a building that the hulk lifted and threw at him
good for him. you saw the ones I posted previously right? here, let me show you again....
a whole frggin island. not bad.
50, 000 tons huh? pretty impressive, not too shabby!
i'm not really gonna go over the rest.....it was a good showing against sue's forcefield (she did state it was an enraged ben at his max, soooo) and good one against doom, although all it really showed was good fighting spirit and some durability.
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another fight with hulk.
Now what's that you were sayin about Simon not being able to dish out enough damage to harm Ben????
next i'll go into the showings of the times Ben and Simon have faced each other like I mentioned previously.....gotta go deal with a screaming kid now...
maybe. the point of the showings was to show ben being injured. Interestingly enough......I can't find any showings of simon in similar situations. He is incredibly durable, and doesn't bleed. Leak ionic energy maybe. Interestingly enough, has mjolnir harmed ben in the past? i believe it has. Simon's fists have been stated as having the striking power of mjolnir (granted it was an older showing, but whatever). food for thought. (like the rock reference? hahahaha...."pebbles")
Simon posses the striking power of Mijonir... so does Hulk, Red Hulk... you get the point the striking power of mijonir is not what makes it strong (btw Mijonir has been shown to be an IMP stated in AvX so i doubt Wonder Man reaches that anymore, neither does Hulk or Red Hulk)
big deal........herald showings besides Surfer's are inconsistent. Firelord was KO'd by Spidey before. Scan really doesn't show ben taking a "beating" per say.....ben punched him through a building. so what? just because a strength character can punch somebody hard does not equal a win or anything substantial. How many times has superman been hit really hard and knocked back or through something? does that mean the person who did it is an uber badass? no. moving on.......
normally id agree with you but couple it with overpowering surfer doom and its a legitimate feat
ok. i thought you would be smart enough to NOT use this. first off.....thing gets a win here but not by KO! he traps/pins namor with some creature's tusks to the ground (lame! why didn't namor just yank them out?)....anyway.....in the first page namor punckes him so hard blood flies out ben's mouth. don't see that very often. So..............that kinda was a waste of time on your part. I still have a showing of simon KO punching namor, and you have yet to show one of ben accomplishing that.
another one up. has Simon ever dragged Namor out of the ocean against his will? Ben has this, couple with AvX scans, prove Ben is stronger than Namor in every sense
good for him. you saw the ones I posted previously right? here, let me show you again....
you missed my first scans which dwarf yours
he supports an Oil Rig (probably more than 50,000 tons)
now lets take a look at how large that building was (i count 13 stories) now all of that weight combined on him and he lifts it
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another big building to me
and because i know and love you im gonna post the saddest thing in Ben's History
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Ben Dies in 6012 AD its so sad :'(
now on too the fun part
in remembrance of Thing
im much tougher than Wondy? damn straight Ben
@kidman560: ok well......
let's go over the showings ben and simon have had together:
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Marvel Two in One 78, and Thing 5. have them both and as a kid must have read them at least 50 times a piece. those MTIO's were great back in the day and the Thing series was fantastic. In both of the encounters Simon is mind controlled (once by Xemnu the titan, and in the other by Puppet Master). Ben wins both showings but not with anything worth mentioning. In the MTIO showing all he does is knock him free of the mind control and the buddy up and walk away. In the Thing showing, Wondy doesn't really fight back...and puppet master switches his control over to somebody else (she hulk). here's some scans, but they don't prove a thing.
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(above) the Marvel Two in One fight pretty much in full.
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(above) that's all I have of the Thing 5 one. One point is that Thing states Wondy KO'd Thor previously....a claim he himself cannot make.
another big building to me
ok then, here's one to counter it.......................
and we discussed Wonderman's durability previously a bit. I still haven't seen you put up anything substantial showing him being harmed really and I've put up the showings of Wolverine cutting through Ben's hide and now will put up another good one. I have already shown that the Hulk cannot cause significant physical damage to Simon (KO him sure, but can't cause bodily harm) but the hulk sure has shown to do that to Ben.
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moving on....... I would like to point out that, if really needed Simon can grow larger (yes, grow larger) and squash Ben (size and strength can be proportionate)
and really, If Gammora can KO Ben then I'm sure that Wondy can
so all in all, I say that in conclusion:
- Hulk harmed Thing, NOT Wondy...Wondy stood up to Savage Hulk TWICE and was unscathed.
- Wondy has KO'd Namor which has yet to be shown by Thing
- Wondy put down Rulk (KO/Chokehold whatever....) also which has yet to be shown by Thing
- Wondy was able to take out adamantium Ultron
- Wondy has slight speed advantage from jets
- Long drawn out battle..................I'LL TAKE A DRAW!!!!!!
Marvel Two in One 78, and Thing 5. have them both and as a kid must have read them at least 50 times a piece. those MTIO's were great back in the day and the Thing series was fantastic. In both of the encounters Simon is mind controlled (once by Xemnu the titan, and in the other by Puppet Master). Ben wins both showings but not with anything worth mentioning. In the MTIO showing all he does is knock him free of the mind control and the buddy up and walk away. In the Thing showing, Wondy doesn't really fight back...and puppet master switches his control over to somebody else (she hulk). here's some scans, but they don't prove a thing.
no arguments so far
(above) the Marvel Two in One fight pretty much in full.
still no arguments
(above) that's all I have of the Thing 5 one. One point is that Thing states Wondy KO'd Thor previously....a claim he himself cannot make.
oh nope but Ultron disagrees
now if i remember correctly Thor got his @$$ handed to him by Ultron
moving on....... I would like to point out that, if really needed Simon can grow larger (yes, grow larger) and squash Ben (size and strength can be proportionate)
and really, If Gammora can KO Ben then I'm sure that Wondy can
several things about that picture... both admitted that neither could have beat Grimm alone. Gamora used pressure points which Simon does not have any knowledge of
and we discussed Wonderman's durability previously a bit. I still haven't seen you put up anything substantial showing him being harmed really and I've put up the showings of Wolverine cutting through Ben's hide and now will put up another good one. I have already shown that the Hulk cannot cause significant physical damage to Simon (KO him sure, but can't cause bodily harm) but the hulk sure has shown to do that to Ben.
the Thing was beating up a black hole... just gonna let that sink in...
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and this is thing beating up Black Bolt
and this is Hyperion. notice that the thing is not hurt at all from his punch
oh and i showed the thing beating up Rulk already
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