Avatar image for shirso
#1 Edited by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Ken Kaneki the One Eyed King repped by King Crimson

vs

No Caption Provided

Guts the Black Swordsman repped by yours truly

  • Random encounter
  • Both at their prime
  • Fighting seriously
  • Guts has the Berserker armor
  • Kaneki has composite feats
  • Starts 10 feet apart

Fight takes place here:

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for shirso
#2 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for valorknight
#3 Posted by ValorKnight (12422 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#4 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Awesome. You wanna go first or should I? I could have a post up tonight or tomorrow morning (UK time) 😁

Avatar image for shirso
#5 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deactivated-5d065fa72d466
#6 Posted by deactivated-5d065fa72d466 (2222 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP & T4V

Avatar image for consciouskeeper
#7 Posted by Consciouskeeper (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks good TAEP & T4V

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#8 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters

Avatar image for unlimited1
#9 Posted by Unlimited1 (1043 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Avatar image for gaoron
#10 Edited by Gaoron (9172 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#11 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@valorknight: @gaoron: @unlimited1: @consciouskeeper: @weebbicboi: @shirso:

First post is up guys. Sorry, it's kind of unpolished because it's a mish-mash of an older post I made once.

Looking forward to your response Shirso!

The One-Eyed King of Tokyo

No Caption Provided

Foreword

I don't think this battle is fair from what I remember of Guts if I'm being totally honest, so I've limited Ken to feats from the original series in this post. We'll see how things stand after your post and I can up it to a stronger version of Ken if needed.

Also, I took most of this post from another opener I made for an old CaV for Ken that died, so if anything seems strange is because I haven't edited out by mistake :)

Physicals

So, we'll start out with the bread and butter of pretty much every debate - just how strong and fast is Kaneki? The answer is very goddamn quick and really goddamn strong.

Speed

Outlier/PIS feats aside, Kaneki is flat-out faster than Guts. Don't get me wrong, the Black Swordsman is far from slow (in fact I find his speed pretty impressive), he's just slower than my boy here as far as feats go. Kaneki without the use of his kakuja - which boost his stats - is a solid bullet timer.

He can time machine-gun fire well enough to cut hundreds of bullets out of the air from 6 different shooters at once.

No Caption Provided

When trying to pass Amon at the Anteiku Raid without harming him, Kaneki used his speed and agility to run along the side of a building, before dodging machine gun fire from his attacker after it was fired:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even without his kakuja, Kaneki is still incredibly fast. With it, he gains an extra boost to his stats to become even faster, not too dissimilar to Guts and the Berserker Armour. The boost itself is pretty sizeable, at least in regards to speed, given that he could fight evenly with Amon who was wearing a battle suit which made him fast enough to blitz base Kaneki:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Amon moves with such speed in the armour, he cracks the ground when he moves and causes a shockwave which displaces the rain. Enough speed to catch Kaneki - who can time machine gun fire - off guard. A clear indication of supersonic speed from the investigator, who Kaneki goes on to fight evenly to a draw.

Strength

Average ghouls are credited in-verse as being able to create 4-7 times more kinetic energy in their muscles than humans, which is impressive enough on it's own, but Kaneki really shows what they're capable of even early on in the series. Now, similar to Logan and his claws, Ken's MO is his sharp as hell kagune, but he also hits like a proverbial truck without it.

Even in one of his very first battles and at his physical weakest, he was capable of easily ripping out a lamppost from the ground with one hand and smacking somebody hard enough to break it in half:

No Caption Provided

With a single kick, he was capable of completely demolishing a security gate, breaking and warping steel, cracking the concrete it was embedded in and causing enough pressure to send a few of Banjou's friends flying:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

One of his more well known feats is when he punted Ayato through 4-floors of a building with a single punch. That's one strike put a dude through 4 tiers of wood and concrete:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In terms of strength Kaneki is monstrously superhuman, and as far as I know hits a lot harder than Guts.

Durability

Kaneki's skin, like all ghouls, is super-hard. The RC cells in their body make their skin too tough for iron or steel to properly pierce them:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2: Kaneki tries to gut himself with a knife, but it breaks against his skin

3-4: The inhumanly strong brute Taro tries to cut Kaneki's arm off with a hack-saw but it also breaks against his skin

And at this point, Kaneki wasn’t eating humans and his body hadn't properly adapted to its ghoul organs. His skin was considered as soft as tofu by average ghouls, meaning that as he stopped starving himself, his skin's hardness would've only increased.

No Caption Provided

So the effectiveness of the Dragonslayer should be significantly reduced, at least when it comes to chopping Ken in half if he was able to land a clean hit. That said, Guts is very strong and his Dragonslayer is very heavy, so it would still cause serious blunt force trauma. Luckily, Ken has taken some very big blunt force hits and powered through them.

Shachi slammed him through several feet of kagune reinforced concrete and Ken got back to his feet in the next page:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Kagune

One of Kaneki's many advantages in this fight, will be the versatility and range his kagune offers over Gut's Dragon Slayer. Sure, the DS is an impressive weapon, but it doesn't have the range, the regeneration or the adaptability of Ken's kagune.

In keeping with the theme so far, I'm restricting Ken to showings from the OG manga for this section, even though a lot of his crazier kagune forms come later in the series. In any case, I'll show the range, power and precision he was capable of even back then.

His Kagune is capable of taking several forms as well as striking from multiple angles and reacting fluidly to the situation. A living, responsive weapon, capable of regenerating if destroyed.

Power & Range

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scan 1: Kaneki can use his kagune to attack multiple targets at once (all at different angles and distances) with fatal results.
  • Scan 2 & 3: Here he uses his kagune as a large brute strength tool to launch his opponents with frightening force.
  • Scan 4: A good example of Kaneki's incredible range and volume of his kagune.
  • Scan 5: A single and powerful tendril that had the force to crack Arima's IXA defensive barrier.

Precision & Functionality

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Despite it's range and brute strength, Kaneki is very skilled in the use of his kagune, capable of utilising it more precisely when the need arises.

  • Scan 1: Whilst fighting off multiple enemies in H2H, another tries to blindside him with an attack from behind. He responds by manifesting a kagune tendril and skewering him through the head in one swift move, that doesn't even interrupt the kick he is throwing.
  • Scan 2: During his battle with Yamori, Kaneki (whilst on the defensive) is able to slice off his arm with a sharp movement from his kagune.
  • Scan 3: Kaneki can create hand-like appendages which are nimble enough to grab the thin lance stuck through his head and remove it.
  • Scan 4: After taking a sweeping strike at Shachi which causes him to jump to dodge, Kaneki is quickly able change the direction of his kagune and skewer the former in the air.

Restriction & Immobilisation

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

It can also be used as a means of immobilising an opponent or restricting their movement. Kaneki has, on more than one occasion, rendered his opponent helpless using his kagune to remove their mobility.

  • Scan 1-2: Kaneki pins a kakuja amped Yamori to the ground using his kagune, whilst he literally eats him alive. Kaneki is just pulling chunks of flesh of the guy, digging to his weak-spot and he can't do a damn thing about it.
  • Scan 3-4: After dodging a point blank attack from Ayato's kagune, Kaneki counter attacks by piercing him through the leg and dangling him upside down in mid air.

Skill

Kaneki is very underrated when it comes to skill, IMO. In battles, a lot of people focus solely on his regeneration or his kagune attacks when in fact, he has a lot to offer in the way of skill. He heavily incorporates his kagune attacks into his already impressive martial arts, which blends to create a unique style of fighting which often gives him the edge over the people he fights.

One thing he is seldom credited for is his Eidetic Memory, which you might know better as photographic reflexes. He has shown the ability to view fighting techniques and fluidly integrate them into his own style after only one or few viewings, able to recall them to memory and utilise them instantly. And, thanks to his acute senses, he's also able to dodge and defend attacks on instinct. Let's dive in to some of his feats from the first series and I'll show you exactly what I'm talking about.

Kaneki was originally trained to fight by Touka and Yomo - both very skilled fighters in their own right - and overtook them in fighting skill fairly quickly.

Many ghouls tend to be adept fighters, skilled in martial arts, as they have to fight for their lives from a young age. Yomo is described by Mutsuki - who is honestly approaching almost comedic levels of skill - as being "excellent at melee combat" and "a ghoul without flaws", and Touka has held her own against and defeated many a skilled fighter.

Anyway... before any training from these two had really sunk in with Kaneki, he was still able to fight using his Eidetic memory to pull information and techniques he recalled from books with brutal efficiency against much larger and stronger opponents:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, after trying and failing to injure the gigantic monster scrapper Taro with strikes, he quickly ascertains he will be unable to injure him with brute force and employs joint locks and attacks to break his arm and incapacitate him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, Kaneki demonstrates his combat skill by fighting whilst blinded, dodging and blocking attacks based purely on instinct. His opponent, Gil, is one of the leaders of the 6th Ward who was trained in combat by Shachi - a master martial artist infamous for his power and one of the most skilled fighters in TG - and Kaneki neg-diffs him while handicapped and very clearly holding back.

He also shows his skill in grappling again, swiftly applying an arm-bar in mid-air (after allowing himself to be tagged to get a read on his opponents location), grounding Gil and slapping him about his head for being stupid enough to challenge him.

After meeting and losing to Shachi, Kaneki shut himself off from the world for a couple of weeks and trained constantly, reading more than a hundred books on martial arts, the human anatomy and modern medicine, using his Eidetic memory to increase his skill exponentially to the point where he could fight and defeat a man who weeks earlier stomped him into the ground:

No Caption Provided

He taught himself move reading and fought Shachi on equal footing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, he avoids Shachi's lightning quick strikes by reading his moves and attempting to employ strike to the eyes to overcome Shachi's durability. For reference, Shachi was moving too fast for Kaneki to defend himself in their first fight, and even moved FTE to him at one point.

Now we've touched on Kaneki's base martial arts skill, lets see how he employs his kagune into his fighting style and gives himself an even deadlier CQC arsenal.

Kaneki often uses his kagune as a distraction or to position his opponent exactly where he wants them. He'll use his superior range and versatility to force his opponent to dodge into a position he desires, and then goddamn nail them with a critical hit as he has done many times before:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

When fighting the faster, stronger Yamori, Kaneki baits him into an attack as seen in the first scan. Once Yamori dives in, Kaneki deftly shifts his body weight out the way of the strike, immediately turns his kagune upward to cut off Yamori's [arm] and then shifts his weight again in the same movement to deliver a solid kick to the stomach. Yamori, stunned by the pain and shock, opens himself up to being immobilised.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

In his fight against the supersonic Ayato, Kaneki forces him into an unfavourable position by thrusting his kagune toward the former until he's forced to dodge, and is suspended in the air. Once temporarily immobilised (in a sense), Ken blitzes over to him and hits him with a combo of debilitating body and head strikes.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

After stalemating Shachi in H2H, Kaneki quickly busts out his kagune and (by copying a move from Shachi he'd seen him perform once) overwhelms him. Again, using his ridiculous agility and fight smarts to come out on top.

The Battle

Guts is strong, he's fast, and he's resilient. However, Ken is stronger, he's faster and he's just as resilient with a mean healing factor to boot. In a straight 1-v-1 fight like this, in such an uncluttered environment, I don't think he really has a shot at winning.

With his superior range, skill and speed, Kaneki can avoid being hit by Guts and slash away at him from a distance with his kagune or completely knock the crap out of him with it. I'd honestly say its arguable that Kaneki could one-shot both Guts and cut through the Dragonslayer, but I'll get onto that in my next post.

Your move bud.

Avatar image for shirso
#12 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: Impressive post man, this will be challenging. I will start working on my counter asap.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#13 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: thanks mate, looking forward to it!

Avatar image for deactivated-5d065fa72d466
#14 Posted by deactivated-5d065fa72d466 (2222 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting

Avatar image for consciouskeeper
#15 Posted by Consciouskeeper (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool

Avatar image for vsw
#16 Edited by vsw (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

How the hell did I miss this? Tag after every damn post.

Been needing an excuse to reread both these series, this just might serve as one...

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#18 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for shirso
#19 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for faradaysloth
#20 Posted by FaradaySloth (10650 posts) - - Show Bio

Taep and t4v

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#21 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Awesome man, just checking. Take your time:

Avatar image for shirso
#22 Edited by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson:

If you meet God tell him to just leave me alone!
If you meet God tell him to just leave me alone!

Bio

Guts is a swordsman, demon slayer and general badass with an uber sad backstory which is too deep to delve into here. In short he used to be a mercenary with a highly reputed company in his youth, and had a "will they won't they" affair with Casca, one of the commanders. After a series of very complex events, he was forced to take part in a Satanistic ritual, where Griffith, his commander in chief sacrificed all his former comrades in order to attain the status of a demon.

Only Guts and Casca survived, though Guts lost an arm and an eye, while Casca was driven insane by the ordeal. Driven by a blind hatred towards Griffith, Guts now dons the title of the Black Swordsman and roams from land to land slaughtering demons and fiends everywhere, while vowing to strike down Griffith one day

Gear

The Dragonslayer: A 6ft 6in. huge slab of pure iron, it is Guts' signature weapon. Even taller than Guts himself it weighs several tons at the least. That's not an issue for Guts though who swings it around with one arm as easy as a baseball bat. Also owing to the number of demonic entities Guts has slain using Dragonslayer, the sword has acquired the ability to harm intangibles and spiritual entities as well.

Prosthetic metal arm: To replace his lost left arm, a blacksmith fitted Guts with this device which looks every bit like a real arm. Guts has one shot people with this arm, and blocked strikes.

Canon: A mini canon fitted with his prosthetic arm.

Crossbow bolts: His prosthetic arm also comes equipped with a mechanism for firing crossbow bolts at a rapid rate.

Mini bombs: Guts carries mini explosives with him.

Throwing knives: Guts has great throwing accuracy and has used these to good effect in the past.

I must say I have heard a lot of the infamous Ken Kaneki before, what with him being touted to be the Spiderman of Anime and his regeneration being one of the best in the trade. So when I got the opportunity to finally face this dude, I literally jumped at it. Kaneki has a real Lovecraftian body horror thing going for him, which incidentally are exactly the kind of enemies that's Guts' bread and butter. The matchup has a real Man vs Monster kinda feel to it, and I can very easily see Kaneki being a big bad God Hand in some Berserk arc. His alias the Centipede even has that ominous deity ring to it. Rest assured Guts will have the time of his life hacking away at the guy and I would pay to see this scrap actually on screen or panel!

So just reading your foreword I can see you are coming into this match supremely confident of your character which is a good sign because I wouldn't have it any other way. That said I do feel you are underselling the Black Swordsman a tad bit, and hopefully I can convince you that this is a fair and challenging matchup for both parties, so without further ado, let's get to it!

First things first, let's compare stats:

Here's what I will do, I will first present only base Guts' physicals. The Berserker armor will get its separate section.

Speed

I will first briefly address your own feats then present some of my own to give an idea of how Guts stacks up to Kaneki.

Outlier/PIS feats aside, Kaneki is flat-out faster than Guts. Don't get me wrong, the Black Swordsman is far from slow (in fact I find his speed pretty impressive), he's just slower than my boy here as far as feats go. Kaneki without the use of his kakuja - which boost his stats - is a solid bullet timer.

You are right Guts being from a medieval setting kind of works against him here since he can't get that holy grail of street tier speed feats: the mighty bullet timing.

Even so, I dare say Guts is pretty fast in his own right, which I will be coming to in a second, but first, its Kaneki's time to shine:

He can time machine-gun fire well enough to cut hundreds of bullets out of the air from 6 different shooters at once.

No Caption Provided

When trying to pass Amon at the Anteiku Raid without harming him, Kaneki used his speed and agility to run along the side of a building, before dodging machine gun fire from his attacker after it was fired:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

These are certainly good reaction feats for Kaneki, though I would say the rather appreciable distance between Kaneki and his shooters in both feats, especially the former, is worth noting. As we all know reacting to a bullet or any projectile/attack for that matter becomes more impressive the closer you are.

In that vein, allow me to present Guts' first feat in this CaV, one from very early days in the series:

No Caption Provided

Basically a demon is swinging a huge battle axe around at FTE speeds yet Guts is keeping up casually inspite of being at a range disadvantage. This is also a great starting point for his impressive swordplay as well.

But what he does just a page later is even more impressive:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He moves fast enough to blindside the monster, go behind him and blitz him, all without getting tagged even once.

Also keep in mind that unlike Kaneki, this fight was taking place in a confined room so Guts had way less room for maneuverability. Not a bad feat to start off with I'd say.

Even without his kakuja, Kaneki is still incredibly fast. With it, he gains an extra boost to his stats to become even faster, not too dissimilar to Guts and the Berserker Armour. The boost itself is pretty sizeable, at least in regards to speed, given that he could fight evenly with Amon who was wearing a battle suit which made him fast enough to blitz base Kaneki:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Amon moves with such speed in the armour, he cracks the ground when he moves and causes a shockwave which displaces the rain. Enough speed to catch Kaneki - who can time machine gun fire - off guard. A clear indication of supersonic speed from the investigator, who Kaneki goes on to fight evenly to a draw.

Can I see some feats for what happens after this? I mean

Ok so Kaneki with his Kakauja can keep up with a supersonic opponent, that's cool, it gives a good baseline.

So allow me to present one of Guts better speed feats, one quite similar to Kaneki's one, from the time he fought the Apostle Rosine:

Reacts to Rosine's attack mid air. Guts moved his face away at the last moment, so that he could bite down on Rosine's stinger and prevent her from flying away.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Rosine can fly at easily supersonic speeds and she was causing sonic booms and mini explosions and uprooting nearby trees with her movements. So I dare say she is probably as fast or even faster than Amon and had an advantage over Guts due to flight.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

This feat is even more impressive because Guts was falling mid air, which naturally should have impeded his movement a lot. And as you might be able to make out from the scans, he was quite injured.

Before ending this section, I should just say that Guts' consistent and normal combat speed is also quite fast, like he fights at FTE and blur speeds even against fodder, casually riping through small armies worth of mooks in an instant.

For instance:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1) Moves so fast he seems like a tornado

2) Creates after images and moves like a blur

Conclusion: So I hope I have been able to at least make somewhat of a dent in beliefs that Kaneki is too fast for Guts, and honestly Guts' feats may even be better in some respects considering he always has a handicap in most of his fights, in the first feat he was fighting after being beaten, starved and tortured for a day, and was performed with very little room. As for the Rosine feat, he was already pretty injured and falling mid air so obviously had reduced mobility.

.

Guts' output vs Kaneki's durability

I must say I was a tad underwhelmed by the durability feats you provided for Kaneki, especially his piercing resistance. Going up against someone like Guts, you need a healthy dose of the latter to not get butchered and I am sorry but I simply don't see Kaneki being up to the task of handling Dragonslayer from what you have shown.

1-2: Kaneki tries to gut himself with a knife, but it breaks against his skin

This is Kaneki from like less than ten chapters into the series if I am not wrong, so he is basically still your average bookworm teenager. You have proven Kaneki's skin is tough enough to no sell a household knife being wielded by your average Japanese teenager, congrats.

Now if only I had a 6ft 8in war machine of pure muscle wielding a slab of iron even taller and heavier than himself,oh wait....

Sarcasm aside, its quite baffling how you thought a feat like that would even be enough to stop Guts wielding an ordinary sword, let alone the Dragonslayer.

Guts even way back during his Band of the Falcon days could cut through full armored knights like butter with a dull sword and send them flying, while already injured and tired after hours of fighting.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

But Black Swordsman Guts (which is basically Guts wielding the Dragonslayer) is on a whole different level. For instance here he casually one shots and decapitates full grown Demon tigers in half:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Tigers are already extremely tough and durable to harm (I assure you a teenager with a knife wouldn't scratch them), but these were Demon tigers and part of Ganishka's army and as such were much larger and more ferocious than normal tigers.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1)These tigers are taller than humans.

2)People commenting on their size.

And I assure you this isn't even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Guts' showings.

3-4: The inhumanly strong brute Taro tries to cut Kaneki's arm off with a hack-saw but it also breaks against his skin

Ok what strength feat does Taro have that makes this impressive ? He is not even a ghoul, just a big lumbering human. How is he even in the same league of strength as Guts who was almost decapitating knights in full armor even as a child?

Not to mention he is using a damn hack saw, as even the spectators in the second scan comment that such a weapon is too weak to harm a ghoul.

Also there's the fact Taro wasn't putting any momentum behind his strike.

I am sorry it would take more than no selling a hack saw to prove Kaneki can stand up to a multi ton sword hitting him at supersonic+ speeds, being wielded by a guy who can cut fully armored knights like butter even with a dull sword.

And at this point, Kaneki wasn’t eating humans and his body hadn't properly adapted to its ghoul organs. His skin was considered as soft as tofu by average ghouls, meaning that as he stopped starving himself, his skin's hardness would've only increased.

Ok so he would no doubt have much better piercing feats than what you have shown later in the series right? Cool, I will be waiting to see those in your 2nd post.

So the effectiveness of the Dragonslayer should be significantly reduced, at least when it comes to chopping Ken in half if he was able to land a clean hit.

No, that's some serious underestimation of how strong Guts is and how powerful the Dragonslayer is if you really think no selling a knife and a hack saw would mean "significantly reducing" the effectiveness of the Dragonslayer.

A medieval knight in full armor would replicate both those feats, and even Golden Age Guts with a dull sword could cut through fully armored knights like butter. And I haven't even come to my best feats yet.

That said, Guts is very strong and his Dragonslayer is very heavy, so it would still cause serious blunt force trauma. Luckily, Ken has taken some very big blunt force hits and powered through them.

This is true and I am glad you didn't forget it. Getting hit by the Dragonslayer means you need to simultaneously tank a huge amount of blunt force as well as piercing.

Shachi slammed him through several feet of kagune reinforced concrete and Ken got back to his feet in the next page:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is certainly a nice feat, but as we can see Kaneki spit up blood which means he can't no sell this level of striking.

I dare say Guts can hit even this hard, especially with the Berserker armor, but I will come to that soon.

Now I will not address Guts' durability separately here because the Berserker armor makes it a whole different ball game in that regards, but let's talk about fighting skill and related areas like battle instincts, smarts, etcfor a moment...

Guts vs Kaneki : Who is a better fighter?

Now even though Kaneki has somewhat trained in martial arts since he became a ghoul, I highly doubt he even compares to Guts in this category.

If you look at Guts' backstory, he spent his childhood in a mercenary band, so he learnt to wield a sword before he could read probably and was constantly being thrust into dangerous life and death situations. And even as a small child, he practiced with a sword all day and distinguished himself as a highly capable fighter from a very early age.

Kaneki may have certainly picked up some martial arts later on but for the most part of his life, he was a bookish teenager while Guts even as a mere child was holding his own and making a name for himself in combat against hardened warriors, much bigger and stronger than he is. I think its simply not possible for Kaneki to have better battle conditioning and skill than Guts.

For instance let's look at your first feat:

Anyway... before any training from these two had really sunk in with Kaneki, he was still able to fight using his Eidetic memory to pull information and techniques he recalled from books with brutal efficiency against much larger and stronger opponents

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, after trying and failing to injure the gigantic monster scrapper Taro with strikes, he quickly ascertains he will be unable to injure him with brute force and employs joint locks and attacks to break his arm and incapacitate him.

The thing is Taro sure is strong but he is just that, strong only, he isn't even intelligent let alone skilled in combat

On the other hand, we see that even kid Guts was embarassing grown ass warriors who were not only waay stronger, but also had some degree of skill.

The best example is kid Guts' showing against Bazuso.

This dude is a feared General who is rumored to have killed a bear unarmed or 30 men at once. So infamous is his reputation that Guts' entire mercenary band pisses their pants at the thought of fighting him. This is when Bazuso is alone btw.

No Caption Provided

So what happens next? Well a pre pubescent Guts steps up to Bazuso and now see for yourself what he does to the feared general.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Yeah, Bazuso barely keeps up with Guts' speed and actually gets pushed back, then gets easily killed, this despite the fact that Bazuso is an incredibly large man, and can cut through steel and send armored knights flying with one swing of his axe.

To give a Game of Thrones analogy, this is probably the equivalent of Arya Stark casually beating The Mountain in a 1v1.

So Bazuso is not only as strong and brutish as Taro but is also actually skilled and had armor as well. Yet a kid Guts practically fodderized him, while Kaneki still had troubles with Taro (for instance Taro could easily body slam Kaneki and would have cut his arm off if not for Ghoul skin).

Another ridiculous skill feat for kid Guts would be when he took on a pack of wolves by himself.

To establish a bit of context, this was right after he was chased by Gambino's company who thought Guts had murdered Gambino and wanted to lynch him probably. Guts barely escaped from them, falling off a cliff. He was knocked unconscious and when he woke up, found that he was cold, lost too much blood and broken two ribs.

No Caption Provided

And as you can see he even had a crossbow bolt to his shoulder.

It is then that he gets attacked by a pack of hungry wolves, and kills most of them all by himself with a single sword.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

I mean fighting off wolves (who btw would casually tear off even the world's most physically imposing human fighters) with a single sword in his condition is a ridiculously impressive feat. This is only kid Guts and it still easily overshadows an early Kaneki's showing against the essentially brute force fighter Taro. And its not surprising really, considering both characters' background. Guts was practicing with his sword day in and day out while Kaneki was probably reading Takatsuki or fantasizing about some cute senior . There's simply no comparison.

u

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, Kaneki demonstrates his combat skill by fighting whilst blinded, dodging and blocking attacks based purely on instinct. His opponent, Gil, is one of the leaders of the 6th Ward who was trained in combat by Shachi - a master martial artist infamous for his power and one of the most skilled fighters in TG - and Kaneki neg-diffs him while handicapped and very clearly holding back.

He also shows his skill in grappling again, swiftly applying an arm-bar in mid-air (after allowing himself to be tagged to get a read on his opponents location), grounding Gil and slapping him about his head for being stupid enough to challenge him.

This is cool and all, but I am sure you understand that fighting a swordsman, that too someone as skilled as Guts, is going to be very different from a h2h fight right? I am not sure his martial arts is going to be very relevant against a weapons master like Guts tbh.

As far as fighting with ridiculous handicaps go, Guts back during the Golden Age, slayed hundred armed knights all by himself, with one hand and a dull sword.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is again an insane showing of Guts' sword skill, being able to slaughter that many professional fighters with one hand, without taking a fatal hit even once. This is especially worth noting since all these knights were armed while Guts didn't have any particularly resilient armor per se. So basically every single one of those knights could have one shotted him with a decent blow.

Can Kaneki with such severe handicaps kill 100 opponents who can each one shot him? I don't think so, Guts simply operates on a whole different tier of skill to him.

He taught himself move reading and fought Shachi on equal footing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here, he avoids Shachi's lightning quick strikes by reading his moves and attempting to employ strike to the eyes to overcome Shachi's durability. For reference, Shachi was moving too fast for Kaneki to defend himself in their first fight, and even moved FTE to him at one point.

Eh its not as if Kaneki has the Sharingan or actual precognition or anything. Trying to read your opponent's next move is fairly standard stuff for any skilled fighter and a lot depends on how skilled your opponent is, or your opponent's own fighting style.

To prove Kaneki can effectively read Guts' moves in combat, I'd ask feats for:

1) Anyone in Tokyo Ghoul having the same level of skill feats and fighting background as Guts.

2) More importantly, anyone in TG being as skilled a swordsman as Guts. I am sure you realize having a drastically different fighting style is pretty much all it takes to render Kaneki's martial arts skill pretty much moot.

Basically its not enough for you to prove Kaneki has some martial arts training, you need to show his adaptability and versatility in combat against different fighting styles he hasn't faced before. After all the guy isn't Batman or Jin Mo Ri.

And as far as fighting against physically superior opponents go, well Guts has loads of those, for instance his fight against Wyald, an inhumanly strong Apostle.

Guts has kept up with Wyald in a furious bout of cqc, so fast and brutal that they were sending human body parts flying like marshmallows.

No Caption Provided

And Wyald has some seriously impressive physical feats, like throwing a man a large distance to the top of a tower from the ground, so fast that nobody could even perceive his movement, all while handcuffed.

Or strength wise, he has shattered a huge boulder falling on him from a substantial height, casually with one hand.

He was basically much stronger than this version of Guts and Guts still matched him blow for blow on horseback no less.

Now one feat for Black Swordsman Guts, his fight with Nosferatu Zodd in human form is a perfect example.

The fight is pretty long, so I will just post a link.

Black Swordsman Guts vs Zodd

As you can see Guts and Zodd are pretty much even here, with Zodd being capable of one shotting if even one attack lands, still Guts matches him in speed and doesn't get properly tagged even once. And Zodd is of course physically stronger than Guts.

Zodd is also extremely skilled himself, as back during the Golden Age, Guts remarked on Zodd's skill, even calling him "far beyond Griffith" who was sort of an idol to Guts during those times.

I might as well link their earlier fight.

Pre Eclipse Guts vs Zodd

So Black Swordsman Guts kept up with a physically superior opponent (to the point that Guts would get one shotted if even 1 blow landed) who was far more skilled than Pre Eclipse Guts who has ridiculous skill feats himself as I have already shown.

This should give you enough material to work with for now.

Conclusion:

  • I don't see Kaneki having anywhere near the battle conditioning and training Guts has been put through from a very young age.
  • Even early Guts has kept up with physically superior opponents who can one shot him, just through sheer skill.
  • Kaneki may have some h2h martial arts training, but I have yet to see any feats of him fighting a swordsman as skilled as Guts.

D

And now I believe, its finally time for the main event. Without any further ado, let's get to the...

The Berserker Armor

This is an enchanted, highly durable suit of armor that grants the wearer increased ferocity, strength, regeneration and the ability to completely ignore pain.

Guts already hits hard enough without it, but with the armor's amp is where he starts truly becoming scary.

In one of his first showings in the Berserker armor, he completely shatters the Apostle Grunbeld's shield in one blow, by Grunbeld's own words, his shield is tough enough to repel canon fire.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Grunbeld is a giant, so his shield is obviously a lot bigger, thicker and stronger than normal. And Grunbeld is one of the most famous knights in the realm, and an Apostle (high level demon) on top of that, so his particular shield should be of a much higher quality as well.

But this is hardly Berserker Guts' limit, as right after this, Grunbeld transforms into Apostle form, which for him is basically a huge ass dragon, and viciously attacks Guts. Guts not only easily stops the blow but cracks Apostle Grunbeld's skin that is made of corundum (a material much much harder than steel) with one blow.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Grunbeld is insanely strong even outside of his Apostle form, he should scale far above the likes of Wyald for instance, and he himself has great feats like smashing through a reinforced castle gate with a single blow.

Casually stopping an attack from Grunbeld's Apostle form is quite impressive to say the least.

This is also a testament to the Dragonslayer's toughness as well, as it was durable enough to withstand a blow that cracked corundum.

The next good feat for the Berserker's output is when Guts casually fodderizes Makaras.

These are huge Kraken like demon beasts, part of Emperor Ganishka's demon army, and each capable of sinking ten warships singlehandedly. Guts kills all of them single handedly in the Berserker.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
1) Guts easily ripping through a Makara 2) Some exposition on the beasts

Guts is also strong enough to effortlessly smash right through the armored hull of a ship with the suit's amp.

No Caption Provided

The Berserker armor also prevents Guts from feeling any pain or fear and awakens their inner bloodlust:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

And it can also regenerate injuries mid battle:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As you can see, broken bones and limbs mean nothing to Guts in this armor.

As for speed, the Berserker greatly increases his overall agility as well, and in this form, Guts gets a very clear cut hypersonic combat and reaction feat, when he dodges the Eastern mystic Daiba's concentrated water jet.

Daiba can concentrate water into a needle said to be powerful enough to cut diamond. But Guts is easily able to avoid it, and Daiba even comments on his agility.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Wikipedia tells us that industrial water jets operate at a speed of Mach 3,

However, its worth noting that water jets can't be used to cut diamonds, yet Daiba's could, so its reasonable to say Daiba's water jets were faster than Mach 3, and yet Guts was easily dodging them, while maintaining his balance on a ship.

Conclusion

  • The Berserker armor gives Guts a huge boost in striking power. Even without the armor I doubt Kaneki can take Dragonslayer hits from the feats you have shown, with it he gets cleaved with every blow.
  • Guts combat and reaction speed with the armor should easily be hypersonic, which would make him faster than Kaneki.
  • The Berserker basically gives him infinite pain tolerance and regenerates injuries which is useful for obvious reasons.

There's just one last thing I would like to address before I wrap things up for the moment:

Dealing with Kaneki's Kagune

Now Kaneki's Kagune is obviously a great asset for him in this fight, however I feel Guts with his own skilled swordplay, his speed in closing gaps and better battle experience, would be up to the task of taking him down.

Guts is also no stranger in dealing with ranged opponents, for instance I showed you that feat where he easily beat a guy that was swinging his battle axe at FTE speeds in a confined space.

One of the best examples of this is when he fights Daibya, Emperor Ganishka's Wizard General, a powerful magic user who was controlling the water of an entire harbor to fight Guts.

This guy sends a number of massive tornadoes after Guts which he is easily able to maneuver around, again on the rough footing and confined space of a ship.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He is later able to do it again, this time while Daiba has summoned the Kundalini,his strongest mystical demon, who can shoot those hypersonic water jets I was speaking of:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Daiba with his water manipulation had waaay more range and battle field control than Kaneki with his Kagune can dream of, and Guts could still easily close the distance to Daiba every time. Not to mention that Guts had to work on the rough footing of a ship the entire time meaning one wrong step and he would have drowned due to the weight of the armor.

Here he has none of those disadvantages, Kaneki's Kagune isn't that ranged, nor does he have the kind of battle field control that Daiba had, nor does he have hypersonic ranged attacks like Daiba's water jet, nor is Guts fighting on a ship of confined space here.

Guts would easily maneuver around the Kagune, get up close to Kaneki and slaughter him.

Initial Thoughts:

So after the first round of openers, here's my assessment:

  • Kaneki doesn't have the durability to tank hits from Dragonslayer. As far as I am concerned every blow from Berserker Guts will be cleaving him in half.
  • Guts is far more skilled and has better battle conditioning than Kaneki.
  • Guts has experience dealing against far more ranged opponents than Kaneki under far more unfavorable conditions. The Kagune's reach advantage isn't enough to make a difference here.
  • I do think Guts is actually faster than Kaneki based on the feats you presented.

While I am unsure of whether that's enough to give Guts the win here since you obviously held back feats, I think its as good a starting point as any to build up on, and so with that I will conclude my opener here.

Things to look forward to in my 2nd post:

  • More on Guts' other gear and the advantages they provide.
  • An attempt at breaking down how a fight between these would actually go. While we mostly laid down feats as the groundwork in our openers, in the latter rounds, its all about deducing how all these various factors play against each other, keeping in mind their respective fighting styles, personalities and mindsets, to arrive at a conclusion.

With that said, ball's in your court mate:)

Avatar image for shirso
#23 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for shirso
#24 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#25 Posted by Lan_Fan (16015 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Online
Avatar image for consciouskeeper
#26 Posted by Consciouskeeper (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. Keep me in

Avatar image for pmcinelly784
#27 Posted by pmcinelly784 (1133 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP porfa

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#28 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Now that’s an opener! Nice job man - Guts is definitely more impressive than I remember him being. Guess I have to step it up :)

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#29 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: hey bro, just to let you know I’m still working on this. Just finished the Guts vs Kaneki skill section, so shouldn’t be too much longer.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#30 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17057 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag-For-Votes

Avatar image for shirso
#31 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for kingcrimson
#32 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Sorry to keep you waiting man.

MK11 came out and I’ve just been hammering that lately. I’ll get back to this ASAP - hoping to have a response up by the weekend.

Avatar image for shirso
#33 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for kingcrimson
#34 Edited by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio
"Do you still want to continue?"

Foreword, revisited

So just reading your foreword I can see you are coming into this match supremely confident of your character which is a good sign because I wouldn't have it any other way. That said I do feel you are underselling the Black Swordsman a tad bit, and hopefully I can convince you that this is a fair and challenging matchup for both parties, so without further ado, let's get to it!

I have to admit you've given me quite the refresher on Guts - I underestimated him. I still don't think he has a hope in hell of beating Post-Dragon Kaneki, but I'd be a fool to stick to part 1 feats only at this point, so let's kick it up a gear!

Speed

These are certainly good reaction feats for Kaneki, though I would say the rather appreciable distance between Kaneki and his shooters in both feats, especially the former, is worth noting. As we all know reacting to a bullet or any projectile/attack for that matter becomes more impressive the closer you are.

Whilst true, he was within throwing distance of Amon, and we see when he drops to the ground that he is no further than a few meters away from him. In the former feat, the fact that Ken was dealing with 6 different shooters at the same time whilst actively closing the distance should make up for that. These are automatic weapons, meaning Kaneki is constantly deflecting multiple high speed projectiles in a constantly decreasing time frame as he closes in on the shooters. No matter which way you slice it, I think that feat is more impressive than say, deflecting one handgun bullet at a closer distance.

Basically a demon is swinging a huge battle axe around at FTE speeds yet Guts is keeping up casually inspite of being at a range disadvantage. This is also a great starting point for his impressive swordplay as well.

But what he does just a page later is even more impressive:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He moves fast enough to blindside the monster, go behind him and blitz him, all without getting tagged even once.

Also keep in mind that unlike Kaneki, this fight was taking place in a confined room so Guts had way less room for maneuverability. Not a bad feat to start off with I'd say.

A solid feat, but FTE speed isn't any issue for Kaneki. If anything, it's pretty much a baseline of speed for the series.

Even before Kaneki had any bullet timing feats, he was kicking the crap out of higher-end FTE opponents. To prove it, lets look at a few speed feats from Kaneki's better half, Touka:

I should point out before I get into this, that a ghoul releasing their kagune gives them a boost in stats. When they release their kagune, it's like their body starts cooking with Nitrous Oxide. Their eyes turn black/blood-red, the RC cells in their body start flowing and they get a whole lot faster and stronger.

I'm pointing this out because even without releasing her kagune, Touka was too fast for the human eye to follow:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here she passes between two guys, cuts the first dude's face in half whilst his friend was staring at him, and yet neither of them see her do it. Yet even at those kind of speeds, she was visible to investigators and ghouls, thanks to their superhuman reflexes and perception speeds. When she releases her kagune however...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

she was flitting around a church hall too fast for even Tsukiyama (an S rate ghoul) to properly perceive her.

I mention Touka's speed specifically because even though she's fast, she got completely bodied by her younger brother Ayato, who was blitzing her to high-heaven even when she had her kagune out:

No Caption Provided

Safe to say Ayato is pretty damn fast as far street level speeds go. But Kaneki stomped the living daylight out of him, on both the large open rooftop you see in the gif above, and inside a small room without much room to manoeuvre:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

So while FTE speed is all well and good, Kaneki stomps guys on that level for fun.

Can I see some feats for what happens after this? I mean

Sure, but the fight mostly happens off panel:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The other investigators quickly lose sight of them (not surprising, given their speed) as they engage in battle. They eventually charge each other, and Kaneki tears straight through Amon's armour and takes his arm off. I should disclose that Kaneki is also severely injured in that clash, but he was actively trying to avoid killing Amon, hence him "disarming"(pun intended) him instead of just taking his head off.

So allow me to present one of Guts better speed feats, one quite similar to Kaneki's one, from the time he fought the Apostle Rosine:

Reacts to Rosine's attack mid air. Guts moved his face away at the last moment, so that he could bite down on Rosine's stinger and prevent her from flying away.

Rosine can fly at easily supersonic speeds and she was causing sonic booms and mini explosions and uprooting nearby trees with her movements. So I dare say she is probably as fast or even faster than Amon and had an advantage over Guts due to flight.

This feat is even more impressive because Guts was falling mid air, which naturally should have impeded his movement a lot. And as you might be able to make out from the scans, he was quite injured.

Whilst I agree that's a solid reaction feat for Guts, it was all he could do to barely react to her in those scans. He is very clearly slower than Rosine and is astounded by her speed. It's a badass feat, but I don't think you can say he's on Rosine's tier of speed.

Before ending this section, I should just say that Guts' consistent and normal combat speed is also quite fast, like he fights at FTE and blur speeds even against fodder, casually riping through small armies worth of mooks in an instant.

For instance:

1) Moves so fast he seems like a tornado

2) Creates after images and moves like a blur

Solid showings, but nothing above what's been shown so far for either of our characters IMO - it's just more FTE stuff. Though I have to say I don't think they're true after images.

Conclusion: So I hope I have been able to at least make somewhat of a dent in beliefs that Kaneki is too fast for Guts, and honestly Guts' feats may even be better in some respects considering he always has a handicap in most of his fights, in the first feat he was fighting after being beaten, starved and tortured for a day, and was performed with very little room. As for the Rosine feat, he was already pretty injured and falling mid air so obviously had reduced mobility.

I personally don't see anywhere that Guts is superior to Kaneki. He's FTE, sure, but Kaneki has routinely stomped people on that level. Hell, he's even stomped people who've stomped people who are on that level.

As for Gut's being far from top form when he performed those feats, that can go double for Kaneki. At the time of him stomping Ayato, Yamori had beaten and tortured him for almost 2 weeks, feeding him just enough to heal, then injecting him with RC suppressant and cutting off all his fingers, toes, then his arms - rinse and repeat for two weeks.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He then goes on to break out, stomp Yamori (who also blitzed Touka) and stomp Ayato back to back.

The argument that Guts wasn't in tip-top condition doesn't make up for the lack of speed feats on Kaneki's level. Unfortunately for the Black Swordsman, Kaneki has had a major speed amp since all of the above feats. To see just how much faster he got, we have to review his battles with the CCG's God of Death, Arima.

Prior to his amp, Kaneki has been Arima's inferior in speed by a significant margin - enough to blitz Kaneki almost without effort and move faster than he could see on 2 separate occasions. This is Kaneki who can time machine-gun fire, and yet Arima moves too fast for him to track twice.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

In their first battle at V14, Kaneki attempts to blitz Arima with a surprise attack, only for the latter to disappear from his view and skewer him - twice.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In their 2nd battle in Cochlea, a kakuja-amped Kaneki tries to return the favour and skewer Arima, but narrowly misses his mark. Arima responds by pretty much teleporting out of his coat, and Kaneki (despite having been staring at Arima) is once again left dumbfounded.

Yet after his amp he not only fights Arima on even footing, but even defeats him.

Post-amp, he is able to no-diff bullet timers like Naki - who could cut handgun bullets out of the air at close range:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And simultaneously fight 2 people wearing Arata armour (the one that made Amon supersonic) whilst starving and on the verge of death:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Granted, Ken lost that fight, but it wasn't due to a lack of speed.

As I stated at the start, Guts is fast, Kaneki is just faster.

Kaneki's Durability Vs The Dragon Slayer

I must say I was a tad underwhelmed by the durability feats you provided for Kaneki, especially his piercing resistance. Going up against someone like Guts, you need a healthy dose of the latter to not get butchered and I am sorry but I simply don't see Kaneki being up to the task of handling Dragonslayer from what you have shown.

Then allow me to expand on it my friend.

This is Kaneki from like less than ten chapters into the series if I am not wrong, so he is basically still your average bookworm teenager. You have proven Kaneki's skin is tough enough to no sell a household knife being wielded by your average Japanese teenager, congrats.

Now if only I had a 6ft 8in war machine of pure muscle wielding a slab of iron even taller and heavier than himself,oh wait....

Sarcasm aside, its quite baffling how you thought a feat like that would even be enough to stop Guts wielding an ordinary sword, let alone the Dragonslayer.

Heh, well technically speaking Kaneki's ghoulification was already taking place, as evidenced by his hardened skin. Likewise, his strength should have also increased proportionally. Not on Guts level quite yet, granted, but I'd bet anything he was much, much stronger than your average teenager.

With that said, your point is not lost on me. Of course, I am not directly likening the Dragonslayer to a kitchen knife. I just wanted to set the baseline for how hard a ghouls skin becomes - run of the mill steel cannot pierce them, this is a staple of the series. There are some inconsistencies here and there for the sake of plot, but it's shown time and time again that steel isn't enough to cut them. Sufficient blunt force will cause injuries, but for all but extreme cases, their skin won't be cut.

To give another example in line with that, I'll point you to a feat for another (far weaker) ghoul called Shikorae.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In the above feat, using a regular steel sword, Iwao cleaves Shikorae across the face with an overhanded swing and hits him flush. That should've cut his head clean in two, but as is visible from the 2nd scan, it only causes blunt force injuries - his skin remains intact.

Iwao Kurowia is a human investigator, but his family are specifically stated to be amongst the 0.01% of humanity with a genetic anomaly which cause them to have superhuman strength in league with ghouls.

Extrapolating purely from the information given to us about ghouls, and using only the feats I'd already provided, I believe there is sufficient evidence that Guts wouldn't be able to cleave Kaneki in half like he does with your average plate armoured soldier. That said, I don't have to extrapolate, but we'll get to that shortly.

But Black Swordsman Guts (which is basically Guts wielding the Dragonslayer) is on a whole different level. For instance here he casually one shots and decapitates full grown Demon tigers in half:

Tigers are already extremely tough and durable to harm (I assure you a teenager with a knife wouldn't scratch them)

Have you any proof of that? Somehow I find it hard to believe if a superhuman teenager stabbed a tiger with a steel kitchen knife that it would bounce off of their skin.

but these were Demon tigers and part of Ganishka's army and as such were much larger and more ferocious than normal tigers.

Fair enough, but just how does that directly translate to them having superior piercing resistance? If anything, this seems less impressive than Guts cutting soldiers in armoured plate in half.

Ok what strength feat does Taro have that makes this impressive ? He is not even a ghoul, just a big lumbering human. How is he even in the same league of strength as Guts who was almost decapitating knights in full armor even as a child?

Taro isn't really relevant to the feat in all honesty, but he was capable of picking up and ragdolling 2 adult humans like you would a teddy bear. The guy is 9ft and all muscle - he was superhuman in the strength department.

Not to mention he is using a damn hack saw, as even the spectators in the second scan comment that such a weapon is too weak to harm a ghoul.

That's kind of the point. Hack-saws are designed to saw through metal, and they not only fail to do so against Kaneki but the thing breaks against his skin, as you would expect it to do against a thick slab of steel.

Also there's the fact Taro wasn't putting any momentum behind his strike.

It wasn't a strike, he was trying to saw his arm off.

I am sorry it would take more than no selling a hack saw to prove Kaneki can stand up to a multi ton sword hitting him at supersonic+ speeds, being wielded by a guy who can cut fully armored knights like butter even with a dull sword.

Woah there - they're 2 very big claims you've just made. The Dragonslayer weighs multiple tons? Any proof of that? Because that is a wild assumption. Also, I don't recall seeing any supersonic+ speed feats for Guts?

Ok so he would no doubt have much better piercing feats than what you have shown later in the series right? Cool, I will be waiting to see those in your 2nd post.

Indeed he does.

No, that's some serious underestimation of how strong Guts is and how powerful the Dragonslayer is if you really think no selling a knife and a hack saw would mean "significantly reducing" the effectiveness of the Dragonslayer.

I didn't say it wouldn't harm Kaneki, but the fact of the matter is you need something exceedingly sharp and tough to cut through your average ghouls skin, and Kaneki is no average ghoul.

A medieval knight in full armor would replicate both those feats, and even Golden Age Guts with a dull sword could cut through fully armored knights like butter. And I haven't even come to my best feats yet.

Medieval armour could stop a kitchen knife, sure, but I see no reason why a hack-saw couldn't cut through it. That's literally what hack-saws were designed to do; cut through relatively thin metal. In any case, I agree they're not enough to outright no-sell the Dragonslayer, so I don't see any reason to dwell on them too much - I was simply trying to set the stage for what even a below average ghoul's skin could resist.

Kaneki has feats of no-selling cutting weapons far, far superior to a kitchen knife or a hacksaw.

I first point you to Exhibit A, Kurona Yasuhisa. Her kagune can carve through metal like a hot samurai sword through butter:

No Caption Provided

Standard 40ft shipping containers are almost 9ft tall, and high cubes are almost 10ft tall. Either way, that's a fair amount of solid steel she cut through with almost no resistance.

Yet her kagune, along with her twin sisters (who has the exact same one), was carved up by Naki with one solid swing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Naki's kagune is exceedingly sharp and tough, capable of cutting through kagune which are already much tougher than steel. And his kagune isn't just a one-feat wonder, It's also capable of cutting through concrete and human bodies like surgical steel, so sharply that there is almost no blood spurt:

No Caption Provided

Just to touch back on Kaneki for a second, I think it's prudent to mention he started getting more durable as the series progressed. Partly because of his continued cannibalism increasing his overall RC count, but also because his human body was being replaced by kagune as time went on.

Around the time he fought Naki, he was capable of no selling Naki's kagune strikes with his bare hands with no effort:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I must stress, no effort. Look at the guys face, he's barely trying, telling Naki his attacks are pathetic. Don't forget, as I pointed out earlier, Naki is fast enough to cut handgun bullets out of the air at close range, yet Kaneki is completely chumping him and hasn't even activated his kakugan/kagune either.

Naki's also no slouch in the strength department - even before he activated his kakugan, he was strong enough to completely wreck a steel door and send it flying over a dozen feet with a single strike:

No Caption Provided

So here's a pre-prime, holding back Kaneki no-selling a strike from a superhumanly strong opponent that can quite easily cut through bodies, concrete and things tougher than steel with minimal effort.

If you think a big lump of iron like the Dragonslayer is just gonna lop him in half no problem you'd be mistaken.

This is certainly a nice feat, but as we can see Kaneki spit up blood which means he can't no sell this level of striking.

The amount of blood coming from his mouth was minimal, and he was very much conscious and still ready to fight afterwards. Plus, that wall was several feet thick and composed mostly of kagune which is tougher than steel, and yet Shachi still plowed him through it like a bulldozer. That's an insane level of blunt force, especially considering Shachi could pulverise a 25-30ft bridge and the supporting structure it was built into with one punch:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He's also tanked being thrown like a baseball by a kakuja amped Yamori (who Kaneki said was laughably stronger than Naki) with little more than an annoyed grimace:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He has both the piercing resistance and the blunt force durability to deal with Guts, and that's not even touching on his ridiculous healing factor.

Guts vs Kaneki : Who is a better fighter?

Now even though Kaneki has somewhat trained in martial arts since he became a ghoul, I highly doubt he even compares to Guts in this category.

If you look at Guts' backstory, he spent his childhood in a mercenary band, so he learnt to wield a sword before he could read probably and was constantly being thrust into dangerous life and death situations. And even as a small child, he practiced with a sword all day and distinguished himself as a highly capable fighter from a very early age.

Kaneki may have certainly picked up some martial arts later on but for the most part of his life, he was a bookish teenager while Guts even as a mere child was holding his own and making a name for himself in combat against hardened warriors, much bigger and stronger than he is. I think its simply not possible for Kaneki to have better battle conditioning and skill than Guts.

What Kaneki was or wasn't when he was a human means absolutely nothing. Guts has more years experience than Kaneki, but I ask you this:

So what?

Kaneki's affinity for combat is astounding. It took Guts decades to get to as skilled as he is, whilst Kaneki took a fraction of that. I don't know why you would see that as a point for Guts.

For instance let's look at your first feat:

The thing is Taro sure is strong but he is just that, strong only, he isn't even intelligent let alone skilled in combat

On the other hand, we see that even kid Guts was embarassing grown ass warriors who were not only waay stronger, but also had some degree of skill.

Sure, Taro is just a brute devoid of any notable skill - you'll get no argument from me there. With that said, that's far from the point. Kaneki had barely been in a fight before, and he disabled a fighter far stronger, bigger and more durable than him with information he'd pulled from reading a book, not even any legitimate experience or training.

By contrast, the feat you're about to show for Guts against Bazuso is like you already mentioned, a pretty battle hardened version of Guts. He'd been training and fighting for years at this point. You're comparing apples and oranges - they aren't the same thing.

The best example is kid Guts' showing against Bazuso.

This dude is a feared General who is rumored to have killed a bear unarmed or 30 men at once. So infamous is his reputation that Guts' entire mercenary band pisses their pants at the thought of fighting him. This is when Bazuso is alone btw.

So what happens next? Well a pre pubescent Guts steps up to Bazuso and now see for yourself what he does to the feared general.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Yeah, Bazuso barely keeps up with Guts' speed and actually gets pushed back, then gets easily killed, this despite the fact that Bazuso is an incredibly large man, and can cut through steel and send armored knights flying with one swing of his axe.

And yet, Guts is both faster than him and at least as strong as him. It doesn't really seem like that great of a skill feat to me, he just overwhelms him with speed and strength.

To give a Game of Thrones analogy, this is probably the equivalent of Arya Stark casually beating The Mountain in a 1v1.

Sure, if Arya was just as strong as the mountain.

So Bazuso is not only as strong and brutish as Taro but is also actually skilled and had armor as well.

What skill feats does Bazuso have? He doesn't even have any statements indicating his skill. All the fearful comments just speak to him being unnaturally strong, not skilled. We don't know if he trained, whether he's beaten any notable opponents - nada.

Yet a kid Guts practically fodderized him, while Kaneki still had troubles with Taro (for instance Taro could easily body slam Kaneki and would have cut his arm off if not for Ghoul skin).

True, but again, Guts was already very experienced at that point and Kaneki had next to none. He was also drugged by Tsukiyama to slowly inhibit his motor skills, and at the time he was slammed and caught, hadn't even activated his kakugan. I know I keep mentioning that it increases stats - which I showed through Touka's speed - but look at how it effected the Taro fight:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Before activating it, he could barely move Taro with a kick. After it...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He sent his giant ass flying with a slap. This isn't a strength section however, so moving swiftly on...

Another ridiculous skill feat for kid Guts would be when he took on a pack of wolves by himself.

I mean fighting off wolves (who btw would casually tear off even the world's most physically imposing human fighters) with a single sword in his condition is a ridiculously impressive feat. This is only kid Guts and it still easily overshadows an early Kaneki's showing against the essentially brute force fighter Taro.

Yep, not a bad feat I'd say. I don't think it necessarily overshadows Kaneki's feat against Taro, but I agree it's a good feat.

And its not surprising really, considering both characters' background. Guts was practicing with his sword day in and day out while Kaneki was probably reading Takatsuki or fantasizing about some cute senior . There's simply no comparison.

Again, a largely irrelevant point given how skilled Kaneki becomes over a short period of time. Experience is good, but it isn't the be all and end all.

This is cool and all, but I am sure you understand that fighting a swordsman, that too someone as skilled as Guts, is going to be very different from a h2h fight right? I am not sure his martial arts is going to be very relevant against a weapons master like Guts tbh.

The skill Kaneki showed there is very transferable. Being able to fight blinded, dodging on instinct will help him regardless of what kind of weapon his opponent uses. If anything, Guts reliance on his sword puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Kaneki can fight with a sword, his kagune, without any weapon at all or a combination of all of those at the same time.

As far as fighting with ridiculous handicaps go, Guts back during the Golden Age, slayed hundred armed knights all by himself, with one hand and a dull sword.

This is again an insane showing of Guts' sword skill, being able to slaughter that many professional fighters with one hand, without taking a fatal hit even once. This is especially worth noting since all these knights were armed while Guts didn't have any particularly resilient armor per se. So basically every single one of those knights could have one shotted him with a decent blow.

This is my favourite feat of Guts, even to this day. Great stuff IMO, and such a cool showing. He had already killed plenty of men before they shot him in the hand though - just a minor nitpick.

Can Kaneki with such severe handicaps kill 100 opponents who can each one shot him? I don't think so, Guts simply operates on a whole different tier of skill to him.

Kaneki could replicate that particular feat no problem. Could Kaneki, whilst injured, kill tons of fodder who are nowhere close to him in speed, skill or strength? Absolutely. It's indicated he killed the better part of 60 ghouls in the Gourmet's restaurant:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And your average ghoul is far more impressive than your average medieval soldier.

Eh its not as if Kaneki has the Sharingan or actual precognition or anything. Trying to read your opponent's next move is fairly standard stuff for any skilled fighter and a lot depends on how skilled your opponent is, or your opponent's own fighting style.

No, not a Sharingan, but it gave him enough of an edge to fight an opponent on even footing who 2 weeks earlier, blitzed and stomped him. Kaneki was reading his next 2 moves, and then implied he read him further to start tagging him. Shachi has decades of training and experience under his belt, was a black belt in his youth, and was stated to have elevated his style with his ghoul body. He was skilled enough to absolutely demolish a Kaneki who at the time could stomp people just as fast (faster if anything) as Guts, and who had solid skill feats of their own.

To prove Kaneki can effectively read Guts' moves in combat, I'd ask feats for:

1) Anyone in Tokyo Ghoul having the same level of skill feats and fighting background as Guts.

2) More importantly, anyone in TG being as skilled a swordsman as Guts. I am sure you realize having a drastically different fighting style is pretty much all it takes to render Kaneki's martial arts skill pretty much moot.

I don't need any of the above to prove that Kaneki can read Guts in combat, given that Kaneki has proven he can do it and Guts has no feats to say he's skilled enough to throw off move reading or anything of the sort.

With that said, Kaneki is constantly fighting skilled swordsmen in Tokyo Ghoul - they aren't exactly new to him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

During the Anteiku raid, Kaneki easily dispatched on 3 senior investigators all using swords, whilst actively trying not to kill them.

In the second scan you can see him using Hogi's blade as a stepping stone mid swing, then attacking both her and Kuramoto simultaneously, then disarming them both before going on to do the same to Take Hirako. Hirako is an incredibly skilled fighter, having been trained by Arima himself. Irimi even notes how he's much stronger than even your average associate special class, and most investigators never even make it to that rank - you have to be pretty goddamn skilled to get that far.

These 3 investigators were giving Irimi hell (and she's an SS rate fast enough to blitz through waves of machine gun fire as well as being a veteran combatant) but Kaneki was able to wipe the floor with them in a few seconds and whilst holding back.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He did pretty much the same with Amon as well, whilst the latter was dual wielding a pair of blades. Kaneki easily overwhelms him and disarms him, again whilst holding back.

Amon was a prodigy, and even as first class investigator his skills were stated to be equal to that of a special class.

Guts fighting with a sword isn't new to Kaneki, and it damn sure doesn't negate his skill feats.

Basically its not enough for you to prove Kaneki has some martial arts training, you need to show his adaptability and versatility in combat against different fighting styles he hasn't faced before. After all the guy isn't Batman or Jin Mo Ri.

Says who? The guy taught himself enough about fighting in a few weeks to rival a man with decades of experience. The same man who had but a few weeks earlier wiped the floor with him. His adaptability is off the charts.

But let's follow your reasoning - can you show Guts fighting against somebody who can use martial arts on Kaneki's level? How about somebody who can use martial arts, a sword and a kagune that he can shape into anything he wants all at the same time?

And as far as fighting against physically superior opponents go, well Guts has loads of those, for instance his fight against Wyald, an inhumanly strong Apostle.

Guts has kept up with Wyald in a furious bout of cqc, so fast and brutal that they were sending human body parts flying like marshmallows.

How was Guts matching him blow for blow if he wasn't at least close to being as strong as him? Still, impressive feat.

He was basically much stronger than this version of Guts and Guts still matched him blow for blow on horseback no less.

Again, how much stronger can he have been if Guts matched him blow for blow?

Now one feat for Black Swordsman Guts, his fight with Nosferatu Zodd in human form is a perfect example.

The fight is pretty long, so I will just post a link.

Black Swordsman Guts vs Zodd

As you can see Guts and Zodd are pretty much even here, with Zodd being capable of one shotting if even one attack lands, still Guts matches him in speed and doesn't get properly tagged even once. And Zodd is of course physically stronger than Guts.

Zodd is also extremely skilled himself, as back during the Golden Age, Guts remarked on Zodd's skill, even calling him "far beyond Griffith" who was sort of an idol to Guts during those times.

I might as well link their earlier fight.

Pre Eclipse Guts vs Zodd

Another solid feat for Guts, but it was all he could do to survive in both of those fights, by his own admission. Plus, base Kaneki has superior strength feats to base Zodd, so without the Berserker armour I don't see how Guts would fare any better than he did against Zodd, especially when Kaneki is much faster than both Zodd and Guts.

Conclusion:

  • I don't see Kaneki having anywhere near the battle conditioning and training Guts has been put through from a very young age.
  • Even early Guts has kept up with physically superior opponents who can one shot him, just through sheer skill.
  • Kaneki may have some h2h martial arts training, but I have yet to see any feats of him fighting a swordsman as skilled as Guts.
  • Kaneki might not have been a warrior until later in his life, but that seems kind of pointless to focus on given how good he is now. The idea that just because somebody has trained for longer means they are better is flawed and ignores the raw talent and intense learning curve that Kaneki has followed.
  • Out of those you showed, only Zodd has any notable skill feats or statements. I agree keeping up with physically superior opponent is a decent showing of skill, but they didn't seem all that physically superior to Guts given he was matching their blows, albeit with effort.
  • I've yet to see Guts fighting anybody with H2H skills like Kaneki, or anybody with a kagune.

The Berserker Armor

In one of his first showings in the Berserker armor, he completely shatters the Apostle Grunbeld's shield in one blow, by Grunbeld's own words, his shield is tough enough to repel canon fire.

Grunbeld is a giant, so his shield is obviously a lot bigger, thicker and stronger than normal. And Grunbeld is one of the most famous knights in the realm, and an Apostle (high level demon) on top of that, so his particular shield should be of a much higher quality as well.

The latter part of this seems kind of irrelevant, given that his shield is strong enough to repel cannon fire would already mean it's a lot bigger, stronger and thicker than normal.

Still, being able to smash something that can repel cannon fire (despite that being a pretty wide range of possibilities) is a solid feat.

But this is hardly Berserker Guts' limit, as right after this, Grunbeld transforms into Apostle form, which for him is basically a huge ass dragon, and viciously attacks Guts. Guts not only easily stops the blow but cracks Apostle Grunbeld's skin that is made of corundum (a material much much harder than steel) with one blow.

Easily stops it? It very clearly breaks his bones with the effort of doing so. Also, corundum's only "feat" is being stated to be tougher than steel. Cracking it is impressive, but not exactly groundbreaking given that Kaneki's kagune has feats of no-selling strikes that carve up materials tougher than steel like soft cheese:

No Caption Provided

Here's Juuzou cutting through several meters of solid quinque steel, which is far tougher than regular steel. In the manga, it's expanded on that the block Juuzou cuts through is 900,000 tons of steel:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Yet despite being able to easily chop up this kind of stuff, he can't cut Kaneki's kagune:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Cracking Corundum isn't going to cut it.

Grunbeld is insanely strong even outside of his Apostle form, he should scale far above the likes of Wyald for instance, and he himself has great feats like smashing through a reinforced castle gate with a single blow.

Casually stopping an attack from Grunbeld's Apostle form is quite impressive to say the least.

There's no proof he scales above Wyald in strength, and smashing an already broken wooden castle gate isn't overly impressive.

Again, I think casual is overselling it. It wasn't easy for Guts by the looks of things.

The next good feat for the Berserker's output is when Guts casually fodderizes Makaras.

These are huge Kraken like demon beasts, part of Emperor Ganishka's demon army, and each capable of sinking ten warships singlehandedly. Guts kills all of them single handedly in the Berserker.

Guts is also strong enough to effortlessly smash right through the armored hull of a ship with the suit's amp.

Good stuff, but not seeing anything there that puts him in the same bracket of strength as Kaneki.

The Berserker armor also prevents Guts from feeling any pain or fear and awakens their inner bloodlust:

And it can also regenerate injuries mid battle:

As you can see, broken bones and limbs mean nothing to Guts in this armor.

Except it doesn't really regenerate his wounds, it just crudely pulls him back together. His damage will accumulate until he dies from blood loss or a truly fatal wound like a brain stab, decapitation, heart stab or being bisected.

Sure, it might save him from a few broken bones and what have you, but he can't regenerate limbs and a few big hits should kill him.

As for speed, the Berserker greatly increases his overall agility as well, and in this form, Guts gets a very clear cut hypersonic combat and reaction feat, when he dodges the Eastern mystic Daiba's concentrated water jet.

Daiba can concentrate water into a needle said to be powerful enough to cut diamond. But Guts is easily able to avoid it, and Daiba even comments on his agility.

Wikipedia tells us that industrial water jets operate at a speed of Mach 3,

However, its worth noting that water jets can't be used to cut diamonds, yet Daiba's could, so its reasonable to say Daiba's water jets were faster than Mach 3, and yet Guts was easily dodging them, while maintaining his balance on a ship.

Oh boy, I have several problems with both the feat and your argument here:

  • First of all, Daiba does not state his water jets in particular can cut diamond. He is speaking in a very general sense about the power of water itself. He then goes on to say that if it's focused into a needle point, it could cut diamond...
  • ...except his water jets are far larger than a needle.
  • The link you provided actually states that industrial water jets operate in the order of mach 3, which is a fancy way of saying Mach 2 and above. It actually gives us a speed of 760ms-1, which is a little over Mach 2 and similar to the muzzle velocity of an AK-47. AKA, supersonic.
  • And finally to point out an argument you made to me earlier, the distance we are looking at between Guts and those water jets is substantial.

It's a good feat, but it's not a hypersonic feat.

Conclusion

  • The Berserker armor gives Guts a huge boost in striking power. Even without the armor I doubt Kaneki can take Dragonslayer hits from the feats you have shown, with it he gets cleaved with every blow.
  • Guts combat and reaction speed with the armor should easily be hypersonic, which would make him faster than Kaneki.
  • The Berserker basically gives him infinite pain tolerance and regenerates injuries which is useful for obvious reasons.

My views so far:

  • Kaneki has no-sold hits from superhuman opponents who can carve through tougher than steel materials with super-sharp weapons, and that's with his bare hands. Guts isn't cleaving him in half with a relatively dull blade when he could only crack Corundum.
  • I don't agree with his reactions being hypersonic whatsoever, much less his combat speed. Regardless, Kaneki has since reached a level where he can no-diff bullet timers and keep up with somebody who was FTE to the version of Kaneki who could cut machine gun fire out of the air. He's not faster.
  • Kaneki is pretty much the same, except his regeneration is far superior.

Not Dealing with Kaneki's Kagune

Guts is also no stranger in dealing with ranged opponents, for instance I showed you that feat where he easily beat a guy that was swinging his battle axe at FTE speeds in a confined space.

One of the best examples of this is when he fights Daibya, Emperor Ganishka's Wizard General, a powerful magic user who was controlling the water of an entire harbor to fight Guts.

This guy sends a number of massive tornadoes after Guts which he is easily able to maneuver around, again on the rough footing and confined space of a ship.

A really good feat for Gut's manoeuvrability, but I don't agree with those water spouts being the same as Kaneki's kagune.

Guts has to actually fight somebody with genuine battle technique here, in close quarters, who essentially has several swords at once. Doing so would be hard enough as it is, but Kaneki is a shrewd combatant and often burrows some of the tendrils of his kagune underground whilst engaging somebody in head-on combat, meaning he strikes them from behind whilst they're unaware:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2: Kaneki chases Orochi down with his kagune and whilst he's dodging, shoots a tendril up from directly below him and impales him.

3-4: When fending off an ambush from Aura, forces him into avoiding standard strikes again whilst luring him into being impaled from a sneak attack from the ground.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Guts has any feats of super senses of anything, so I don't know how he'd see that coming - especially whilst fighting someone as skilled as Kaneki.

Daiba with his water manipulation had waaay more range and battle field control than Kaneki with his Kagune can dream of, and Guts could still easily close the distance to Daiba every time. Not to mention that Guts had to work on the rough footing of a ship the entire time meaning one wrong step and he would have drowned due to the weight of the armor.

Here he has none of those disadvantages, Kaneki's Kagune isn't that ranged, nor does he have the kind of battle field control that Daiba had, nor does he have hypersonic ranged attacks like Daiba's water jet, nor is Guts fighting on a ship of confined space here.

I'm not overly impressed by Daiba's battlefield control. Sure, he was causing a lot of chaos, but the water spouts shot up, not at Guts. They curve inward slightly, but Guts was essentially just dodging through a minefield, not being actively chased down by a kagune that would skewer him. It's a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

He might not have those specific disadvantages, but he is at the disadvantage of fighting a faster, stronger, more skilled opponent who can cut him in half with a single swipe. And about that...

Ken's Kagune vs The Dragon Slayer

Kaneki's kagune's most defining feature is it's incredible cutting power, which is more than enough to cut Guts' blade (or him) in half. A little earlier I showed the feat of Juuzou's scythe cutting through several meters of quinque steel like it was made of butter. It's arguable that Juuzou's scythe could cut through the Dragonslayer based on that feat, but Kaneki's kagune is even better.

We already know it's tougher than Juuzou's scythe based on it not being able to scratch Ken's kagune, but how does it compare in terms of cutting power? It dwarfs it.

Despite Juuzou's scythe (Jason) being able to carve through Q-Steel, it couldn't scratch either of the Owl's kakuja kagune:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

He fails to cut both Yoshimura's kakuja (even stating how hard his kakuja is) and then obviously fails to cut Eto's superior kakuja too.

Kaneki's kagune however, has cut through Eto's kakuja with ease:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here he is pulling some acrobatics over the top of Eto and cutting the head off of her kakuja, then blasting several kagune tendrils straight through it, and finally lopping her in half.

Honestly, I don't see any reason why Kaneki couldn't cut through the Dragonslayer, or take Guts arm off. As you will have seen a few times in this debate, Kaneki is very fond of disarming people. Without his sword, Guts is up a certain creek without a paddle.

Conclusion

So after the first round of openers, here's my assessment:

  • Kaneki doesn't have the durability to tank hits from Dragonslayer. As far as I am concerned every blow from Berserker Guts will be cleaving him in half.
  • Guts is far more skilled and has better battle conditioning than Kaneki.
  • Guts has experience dealing against far more ranged opponents than Kaneki under far more unfavorable conditions. The Kagune's reach advantage isn't enough to make a difference here.
  • I do think Guts is actually faster than Kaneki based on the feats you presented.

Here's how I see things standing at present:

  • Kaneki absolutely has the durability to take hits from a big blunt piece of iron like the DS.
  • I don't see which feats of Guts you think put him so far above Kaneki - it mostly seems to hinge on Guts having more experience, which Kaneki has already proven doesn't really matter in his own fights against more experienced opponents. If anything, I think Kaneki is the more skilled of the two. He can fight with a sword, he can fight without one, he's beaten martial artists at their own game, wiped the floor with incredibly skilled swordsmen, can fight blind, can move-read, can assimilate moves after seeing them once - you name it.
  • True, he has fought people with more range (with the feats I've shown so far, anyway) but nobody with the range as well as the skill and smarts than Kaneki possesses, not to mention the sharpness of his kagune. The range advantage that Kaneki holds will absolutely be a factor.
  • I wholeheartedly disagree. Guts best speed feats have all been replicated by people in TG who Kaneki has or would stomp. The feat you claim makes him hypersonic is a huge stretch.

IMO, this is still Kaneki's match to take. He's faster, which along with his agility and move reading should allow him to easily avoid Guts strikes. In the event he is unable to dodge, he can always defend with his kagune, and in the worst case scenario he actually has the durability to take hits from the Dragonslayer and keep going. His kagune should cut the Dragonslayer in half with a clean hit, or at the very least could take off Guts arm similar to how he took off Amon's. Without a sword, Guts would be pretty much done for.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#35 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deactivated-5d065fa72d466
#36 Edited by deactivated-5d065fa72d466 (2222 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: "A solid feat, but FTE speed isn't any issue for Kaneki."

I just read it as FTL by mistake, and my heart almost stopped lmao

Avatar image for shirso
#37 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for avaliantimge
#38 Posted by AValiantImge (399 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice t4v

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#39 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for consciouskeeper
#40 Posted by Consciouskeeper (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

one of the better cav so far this year. keep up the work both of u

Avatar image for shirso
#41 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: Hey the Ken's durability vs Dragon Slayer section seems to be messed up

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#42 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Ah crap. CV has been a real bitch for me lately.

I'll try and fix it, cheers.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#43 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Managed to fix it mate, thanks for letting me know.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#44 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: soft bump my dude. No rush, just a reminder in case you forgot :)

Avatar image for shirso
#45 Posted by shirso (4644 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: Hey sorry man, been a bit busy since the term is ending.

Avatar image for kingcrimson
#46 Posted by KingCrimson (5815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: No trouble man, life comes first.

Avatar image for laskt
#47 Posted by Laskt (86 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V