CAV: Kaguya(newcomer) vs Yhwach(Ryuuzakiscorpio

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newcomer

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Kaguya otsutsuki

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Yhwach

Location:

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Challenge a Viner Rules:

Debate:

  • Do not start debates, flame-wars, etc, under any circumstances.
  • Do not correct either of us on any mistake, miscalculation, etc, that we could have possibly made, if you must do so, send us a P.M.
  • No posting videos, external links, scans, music, etc, all of these are examples of irrelevance and will flood the thread.

Voting:

  • Give a reason for your vote.
  • It's a vote on who debated better, not an average battle forum topic on which character would win in a fight.
  • Voting is only permitted when both of us have agreed to end the debate, when we have, it will be announced and voting is open from that point only.
  • May the best man win

Rules:

  • Morals on, In character
  • Cannon feats only (no non cannon anime material, etc.)
  • Both at full power
  • Win by death, k.o, and incapacitation

Let the battle begin!!!

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dawnone

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#2  Edited By dawnone

oh ya definitely tv4 this should be interesting. Its time we silence bleach wankers once and for all.

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SaiToNoHado

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T4V oh boy this is gonna b fun

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SaiToNoHado

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@dawnone: lol can't silencer wankers they just get louder

but I have a feeling kaguya is gonna win this due to the amount of naruto fans that are gonna vote in her favor

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emperorthanos-

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#5 emperorthanos-  Moderator

oh this is going to be good.

T4V please

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great_black_star

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I will bring some popcorn when debate actually starts. T4V anyway

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Shadowmaster91

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Cute...... I wish both of you good luck with this. It IS a very delicate theme.

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rickyrck

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T4v

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newcomer

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#9  Edited By newcomer
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TheVivas

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@saitonohado: If Kaguya wins it'll be because she's the superior character and newcomer demonstrates that, not because there are more "Naruto fans".

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Shadowmaster91

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@newcomer: Thanks. And remember that this is very delicate.

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newcomer

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@shadowmaster91: No problem, and I know if I say the wrong things there is gonna be a massive flame war so I will be very careful and just prove my arguments.

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zangetsusama01

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You brave souls tackling yhwach vs kaguya GL bound to be toxicity T4V pls

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ryuuzakiscorpio

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#14  Edited By ryuuzakiscorpio

Ok everything looks good, let's start:

I'll go first

I will be showings feats, power scaling and calcs:

Yhwach:

Speed/Reaction/Movement:

Let's start with Yhwach's first fight against Ichibei, in his base form Yhwach was able to fight almost on par with Ichibei.

Link:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach_-_Ichibei's_Speed

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Which is mach 3585.27 for Ichibei

Not Sub-relativistic, just plain MHS+ i won't use the T5F speed calc for this.

Scans:

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Eventually, Yhwach lost to Ichibei Hax which would be explain in Yhwach's durability.

.......................................................................................................

Next:

When Yhwach obtain the Almighty, his speed and powers increased, blitzing Ichibei.

Scans:

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Ichibei in Mach 3500 was no match for him.

Yhwach later was able to react and moved at the same speed as Mimihagi who is Sub-Relativistic and call him inferior to him absorbed all of his powers.

Mimihagi feat:

Link:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Gallavant/Bleach_-_Mimihagi's_speed

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With a 20 minute assume frame (which is a huge lowball) he is Mach 14616.43+, or Sub-Relativistic. (0.0166c)

Scans:

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At least after absorbing Mimihagi Yhwach stands at Sub-Relativistic with low balling. He's current speed after absorbing the Soul King is Unknown we don't know how much boost did he got after absorbing his father's power.

Raw Strength:

Raw strength doesn't matter in debates is the force of striking an enemy which matters but just incase i'll leave here: (This feat only applies if Yhwach has all of his powers, assuming all the Quincy's are dead. I will explain further in the power and abilities section)

With the Power of the Letter "P" The Power-Yhwach should be able to lift at least this much: (There's also another ability which doubles his power) more in the ability section.

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The Ability:

The Power (力 (ザ・パワー), Za Pawā; Japanese for "Power"): Yhwach should possesses superhuman strength, allowing him to punch opponents with tremendous force and pick up and throw large buildings with ease. He should push his opponent through several buildings, each feat with minimal effort from a single hand. She is also able to drastically increase the size of her muscles.

Destructive Capability

In the Destructive capability Yhwach is Moon level after absorbing the Soul King.

Link:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach-_Yhwach_elevates_the_Vandenreich

He lifted the whole Vandenreich/Wandenreich which cover all of Seireitei in the second invasion, from the dimension above it, in a short period of time without lifting a finger:

Scans:

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And created this: (Again without lifting a finger)

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And this:

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I should end this here.

Durability:

Yhwach in Almighty before absorbing anyone tanked Ichigo's swing with his cape.

Scans:

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Yhwach told him that he gain the strength of Dangai Ichigo's level again with his true shikai. Yet he parrys it with his clothes:

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The Almighty eyes gives him 3 abilities:

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Explained best by Yhwach himself here, Yhwach become nigh-omniscient able to perceive everything from the moment he activates this ability up toward the far future. Everything he sees, he can also fully understand, so therefore all ‘abilities’ that he sees becomes his allies and has no effect on him.

Any ability is therefore negated by Yhwach as there is nothing that can obstruct his comprehension or counter-measuring.

Ichigo Getsuga didn't even left a strach of him, negated as he did with Ichibei Temple of none reincarnation:

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Yhwach demonstrates more of his all-seeing ability by recounting events he was not present at and asserting that he saw all of it:

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Yhwach further elaborates that his ability allows him to foresee all of the future and also allows him to steal all power:

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The only exception to his perception of the future so far seems to be the Soul King:

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Even after losing all of his abilities and powers and been reduced to sheer force of an Ant, he tanked attacks like this and he continue to talk fine just fine without even feeling such attacks:

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Ichibei's attack sends the target flying 1,000 Ri without prejudice:

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He received blows of 3927 meters per seconds a few times as an Ant and he was like nothing happen.

His current durability as Soul King is Unknown.

Abilities & Powers:

Most of Yhwach's attacks are based on Hax, so let's start with the simple ones.

As the progenitor of the Quincy, Yhwach has access to all of the basic & advanced Quincy abilities:

Blut: The user makes Reishi flow through their bloodstream, drastically increasing their attack and defence power to superhuman levels. The only flaw with this technique is that both attack and defence cannot be increased simultaneously forcing the user to choose between them.

  • Blut Arterie – the user increases their attack power immensely.

  • Blut Vene – the user increases their durability immensely, marked by a vein-like pattern on their body where the technique is focused.

    • Blut Vene Anhaben – the user can extend this defence outside of their body in a protective forcefield that consumes everything in close proximity in order to fuel the technique.

Kaguya and Yhwach are both over a thousand years old but intelligence wise Yhwach has over two millennia experience as a warrior, along with being the Emperor of the Wandenreich, and a true genius in strategies while Kaguya's intelligence if that of an average princess who depended on Black Zetsu to fight Naruto & Sasuke and form strategies. (Kaguya go create an army of fodders to destroy Momoshiki again, when you can do that by yourself with your power.) Whoever thinks Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya, be reminded how did he lost again. The scrolls said he was stronger than Kaguya, but she was the one who wrote them, she is not that intelligent whatsoever.

Hirenkyaku: the user can flash-step across large distances nigh-instantly to appear as though he can teleport.

Kirchenlied: Sankt Zwinger: the greatest Quincy protective spell, the user creates a barrier with several Quincy crosses, where anyone who enters it will be “torn asunder by the light of God”.

Shadows: A technique that allows a Quincy open a road between two different dimensions through a shadow similar to the Garganta of the Arrancar's. By putting the hand on the floor and then quickly swinging his arm outward, it is able to expand greatly the shadows resulting from manifest a giant portal shape of the cross Quincy, which is large enough to allow several people cross simultaneously to exit.

Blue Flames: By highly condensing his reishi and reiryoku, Yhwach can create blue flames. These flames are powerful enough to burn the sands and rocks of Hueco Mundo, which are otherwise non burnable. He first uses his unique variation during his part of the invasion of Soul Society to incinerate the First Division barracks. Certain members of the Vandenreich also possess the ability to produce this blue flames.

Concussive Force: Yhwach is able to concentrate physical force remotely, which can knock the target back and cause internal and external damage.

Consumption: Yhwach can consume other beings via physical contact including higher beings and in doing so absorbs their powers and energy, and can contain their great essence within his body making their power his own. The process can vary in length being instant with those lower in power then him and taking longer for more powerful beings.

Self-Power Restoration: Should Yhwach's physical or spiritual capabilities be impaired by his opponent, he can easily restore them. When Ichibē Hyōsube's Name Curse crushed Yhwach's voice and prevented him from speaking, Yhwach granted himself the power of voice once more by digging his fingers into his throat and channeling Reishi into the openings. When Ichibē's sealed Zanpakutō caused Yhwach's physical and spiritual power to be halved due to Ichibē cutting his name in half, Yhwach restored them by summoning and absorbing several ribbons of Reishi inscribed with Roman letters.

Sankt Altar (簒奪聖壇 (ザンクト・アルタール), Zankuto Arutāru; German for "Saint Altar", Japanese for "Usurpation Altar"): Yhwach summons five orbs of energy in the air around a target that shoot out concentrated beams of energy at the target, forming the pattern of a large Quincy Zeichen; these beams take the power of the target with the intent of giving the taken power to Yhwach.

Reiatsu Infusion: Yhwach can transfer his Reiatsu to others through contact with a object he has infused his Reiatsu into. If a Quincy receives some of his Reiatsu, their Quincy blood forces them to attack the Soul King if he is nearby because the king "cannot be forgiven"; this is visually represented by Blut Vene veins spreading across the part of the user's body where they received Yhwach's Reiatsu.

Psychokinesis: Is an umbrella term for any ability that involves using the mind to influence/manipulate/move matter/objects. Capable of breaking apart and rising the Vandereich all the way to the Soul King Dimension.

Yhwach also possess Telepathy:

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Soul Distribution Power:

Yhwach was uniquely born with the ability to impart pieces of his soul into other people through physical contact granting Flawless Healing: able to ‘repair’ people in some way that they couldn’t achieve on their own. Either through restoring the use of missing limbs, curing ailments, granting courage to the cowardly or even mending broken hearts. A side-effect of this is that the person is usually doomed to inevitably die within a matter of days, months or even years.

As the affected people begin to die, Yhwach can take back the fragment of his soul that he has leant to them, and therefore gain their knowledge, experience and talents. Growing in power, Yhwach as an infant was able to gain mobility and senses through absorption of souls.

A secondary feature of this is Power Bestowal - through a ritual process, whereby the receiver drinks Yhwach’s blood, Yhwach can bestow superhuman abilities at will. It is currently unknown if Yhwach can use these himself. Some of these powers include:

Link:

http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Bleach-565--God-Like-You?id=186101

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The whole chapter explains in detail these powers and why Yhwach can use all of the Quincy abilities and like he did with Ichibei he can bestow anything and even give anything to himself back: (In that chapter he uses "James" power)

Which is:

His cheers act as a source to Mask's "The Superstar" ability, increasing all of his physical attributes as long as James continues to cheer him on:

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Mask_De_Masculine

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Yhwach gives himself the voice once again:

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By the Quincy Letters he should have from A-Z:

Examples:

  • Cheering Empowerment
  • Fear Manipulation
  • Heat Manipulation
  • Enemy Imprisonment
  • Lightning Manipulation
  • Superhuman Strength
  • Reality Warping
  • Zombie Creation
  • Intangibility (Spatial Piercing & Spatial Phasing)
  • Invincibility
  • Power copying & memory copying & appearance copying
  • Clones
  • Aversion Field

With his imagination he should be able to do things of this level:

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Full List.

Link:

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Sternritter

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Stolen Bankai

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Yhwach stole Yamamoto’s Bankai from him before killing him through a Quincy medallion. The four techniques of this Bankai are:

  • Longsword of the Remnant Flame, East: Rising Sun Edge: Automatically activated at release, this ability concentrates the intense flames of the sword along the edge of the blade. It neither burns nor erupts, but anything it touches is eradicated to nothingness. Even the defensive power of the Wandenreich's Blut Vene cannot stand up against this technique.

  • Longsword of the Remnant Flame, West: Remnant Sun Prison Garb: Automatically activated at release, this ability is unseen by the eyes of anyone else unless the user wills it to be seen. It engulfs his body in heat which reaches a temperature upwards of 15,000,000 degrees. Therefore, it becomes impossible to even touch him while he is using his Bankai. The level of heat produced by this technique is so high, it would not actually appear in the form of flames.

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  • Longsword of the Remnant Flame, South: Great Burial Ranks of the Ten Trillion Fire Dead:Impaling the tip of his sword into the ground, the user calls upon the corpses and ashes of the dead who were killed by his flames to come forth and fight on his behalf. Using the heat of his sword on their ashes, he can rouse all the people he has killed, allowing the corpses to become his limbs and attack whomever he deems as his enemy until they become dust. He can bring forth any specific corpse which he wishes, allowing him to inflict psychological damage upon those with connections to those he has slain.

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  • Longsword of the Remnant Flame, North: Heaven and Earth End in Ashes: A slash of concentrated fire and heat which incinerates whatever it touches out of existence.

The flames are concentrated around him, preventing short range attacks from the enemy, his feets are not engulfed in flames to prevent the environment around him from being destroyed and that's why only the edge of the sword has the flames:

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The floor after been touched by the sword:

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Statements for Soul King Yhwach which aren't important or valid here but feel free to read them:

I know this are statements just like how Kaguya was going to destroy a whole dimension, both are statements without feats. And they don't apply for this Vs match but just in case:

According to Haschwalth, the balance of the entire Universe is now dependant on Yhwach’s power since the Soul King is now gone.

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According to Askin Yhwach's plans to destroy the 3 current worlds and create and new one from scratch when he wakes up.

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I started simple your turn.

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batmanprep

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DEEDUBBLEDEE

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T4V

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rickyrck

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@thevivas said:

@saitonohado: If Kaguya wins it'll be because newcomer demonstrates that, not because there are more "Naruto fans".

Fixed that for you, also you're responding to no hate in case you didn't know.

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TheVivas

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@rickyrck said:
@thevivas said:

@saitonohado: If Kaguya wins it'll be because newcomer demonstrates that, not because there are more "Naruto fans".

Fixed that for you, also you're responding to no hate in case you didn't know.

Didn't need to be fixed at all, and I'm well aware.

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ALMIGHTY

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T4V

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deactivated-5a5a6b5b2407e

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Are there really enough feats for him? any way T4v

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emperorthanos-

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#22 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@rickyrck said:
@thevivas said:

@saitonohado: If Kaguya wins it'll be because newcomer demonstrates that, not because there are more "Naruto fans".

Fixed that for you, also you're responding to no hate in case you didn't know.

That isn't a Nohate alt... His alts have never made it past 20 posts before getting banned, let alone 50.

It is. He has gotten smarter and not done anything crazy yet.

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emperorthanos-

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#26 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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newcomer

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@ryuuzakiscorpio: Alright I will have my post up tomorrow, also how many rounds are we doing?

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newcomer

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#28  Edited By newcomer
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SMXLR8

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ryuuzakiscorpio

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#31  Edited By ryuuzakiscorpio

@newcomer: We can aim for 2-3 or until we decided that is the time for people to cast votes. Neither character has enough feats to go further than that anyways. What do you say?

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newcomer

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Purple_D_Dragon

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@great_black_star: So. . . you really had to go for 10 days, or was just a lie to avoid the debate? Seriously, I want to know how you want to defend your ideas.

@thelocust619 I think he just wants to avoid our points.

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Seems like several people already intend on voting for someone even though @newcomer specifically said vote on who debated better, you know, the way these threads are meant to be done. Anyway t4v

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ALMIGHTY

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@kbm said:

Seems like several people already intend on voting for someone even though @newcomer specifically said vote on who debated better, you know, the way these threads are meant to be done. Anyway t4v

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WF_Mxyzptlk

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T4V!

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Redzkz

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#37  Edited By Redzkz

Is it really time for such thread? Yhwach haven't even started to fight yet and Kaguya will certantly not explain her abilities to him...

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newcomer

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@redzkz: @kbm: If they don't give an actual valid reason for their vote it will not count.

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#40  Edited By newcomer

@ryuuzakiscorpio: Alright let's get to it. (Just an FYI, all my scans are in the spoiler blocks).

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Kaguya ootsutsuki, I think everyone knows her so I will skip introductions and go straight to feats.

Speed:

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Kaguya was able to casually block every single attack from Naruto the same guy who dodged a cannon confirmed light speed attack at point blank.

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And intercepted an attack that crossed the diameter of the moon in seconds in a weaker form.

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Kaguya also completely dodges a teleportation blitz from sasuke. Something Naruto the guy with light speed reactions and madara,

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The guy reacted to a relatvistic attack in a weaker form.

Theses feats should be enough for the time being.

Strength:

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Here kaguya blocks naruto, who's punches can do this:

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Using her chakra arms her strength is enough to overpower perfect susanoo sasuke and naruto's chakra arms

Which is strong enough to destroy mountains, meteors that dwarf mountains, and create waves bigger than mountains

This should be enough to show her strength is easily multi mountain level+

Durability:

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Kaguya was able to tank 9 giant rasenshurikens.

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One rasenshuriken could cut down the shinjuu which could survive 4 juubi bombs

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A single juubi bomb is near country level if not at it, the shinjuu survived 4, that means one rasenshuriken is at least the equivalent to 4 country level attacks and kaguya took nine stronger versions of this attack.

This should easily put her at continental to multi continental level.

Techniques:

Dimensional shifting, kaguya can bring herself and anybody in her range to one of her many dimensions which she can control.

Her dimensions are lava, ice, acid, gravity and the original dimension, she can control the contents of them as she see's fit.

All killing Ash bones, with this she sends bones that can deteriorate your body to dust. Not even regeneration can stop it.

It is also extremely fast, naruto can't even react in time to dodge it. (Above)

Hair needles, kaguya can shoot extremely sharp hair needles into her opponents vital points or organs.

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Rifts, kaguya can open dimensional rifts to anywhere she wants to teleport, send attack through, or bfr an opponent.

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Truth seeking ball, kaguya has shown she possesses the ability to create tsb's and make them extremely huge and powerful.

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With it she can disintegrate anything it touches on a subatomic level even spirits aren't able to regenerate from this attack. It can also become extremely large with the ability to erase a world.

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Kaguya also possesses the byakugan and sharingan, these give her a variety of abilities, she can see near 360 degrees, she can see for miles, she also is granted x ray vision, she can cast genjutsu, see on a microscopic level, and even has precog by reading every movement her opponent makes.

Conclusions:

  • Kaguya possesses the speed advantage with ftl reactions and at least light speed combat speed, coupled with near 360 vision, precog, and teleportation it will be nearly impossible to tag her.
  • She possesses the strength advantage able to shatter multiple mountains with strength alone.
  • Kaguya also possesses the durability advantage for tanking multi continental level attacks.
  • She has the hax advantage with genjutsu,tsb, ash killing bones, hair needles,dimensional shifting, and etc.

I will be countering your opening post in my rebuttals but this should give you a rundown of kaguya's abilities.

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#41  Edited By ryuuzakiscorpio

@newcomer: Fair enough. I'll be countering your opening as well. Before we go on, can you clarify above if the energies are equalized or not? That stament would make things easier later on. Not just to us but others as well. Thx.

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#46  Edited By ryuuzakiscorpio

@newcomer said:

@ryuuzakiscorpio: Nah energy isn't equalized.

I'm glad you clear things up. I will post my Yhwach (Continued) threat later on, I checked your opening, and i decided to countered, because i saw that there were things that you let out, along with my opener.

Let's start with:

Speed:

Newcomer said:

"Kaguya was able to casually block every single attack from Naruto the same guy who dodged a cannon confirmed light speed attack at point blank."

Mighty Guy movement, reactions and combat speed were Sub-Relativistic, and he is the only character in Naruto to demonstrate such feat so far in the manga and that's debatable but for the sake of moving on, i won't, because i don't want to waste time on a loop. First of all Naruto cannot be power scale to him, therefore he's still MHS+ in movement and combat with Lightspeed reactions which can be debatable. But i'll let then be for now. Making Kaguya's reactions Lightspeed.

Now for Kaguya she did block Naruto's attack in that scan, but you left out that:

Kaguya was fighting at the time hundreds of Naruto's clones at once, she easily destroy the first ones and the ones that follow manage to tag her in close combat but she was easily overrun and escaped to her dimension even with her Lightspeed reactions, she escaped from MHS+ clones.

Newcomer said:

"Kaguya also completely dodges a teleportation blitz from sasuke. Something Naruto the guy with light speed reactions and madara,"

Were you about to say that they couldn't react to him? Madara surely couldn't see him, but Naruto could and that's a teleportation technique not a speed feat. In the scan we also see Kaguya escaping from a MHS+ character, with the help of her Reactions which are power scale from Naruto. That doesn't make Sasuke or her faster than light, or near it. There has been other moments when Naruto, Kakashi and Sasuke were able to tag Kaguya as well. As an example i'll use this one:

I concede to the fact that they all been surprise attacks, but she is still around the category of MHS+ just above Naruto and Sasuke. She also had to seperate both Sasuke and Naruto (MHS+), to take them on, because of their Hax combine and it was Black Zetsu's idea: (She is not very bright with tactics either)

Newcomer said:

"The guy reacted to a relativistic attack in a weaker form.", "And intercepted an attack that crossed the diameter of the moon in seconds in a weaker form."

No Caption Provided

The Beam he intercepted was throw directly at him, making use of his Lightspeed reactions, is a nice feat for his base. Base on the speed it's nowhere near Sub-Relativistic or Lightspeed or he should had reach Toneri's position in no less than a second, since they were very close to each other. And this happen years later, after the defeat of Kaguya. This Naruto is more powerful than the one that fought Kaguya, so no backwards power scaling for Kaguya either.

Any feats from the movies isn't valid for Kaguya, because it happen afterwards. Unless you have solid evidence that she can be scale from it.

And in no way shape or form Madara reacted to Might Guy, he barely saw him coming and he couldn't even move out of the way.

I can agree with the rest.

Strength:

Newcomer said:

"Here kaguya blocks naruto, who's punches can do this:"

Power Scaling from a movie that happen years after Kaguya's was defeated, from his base cannot be power scale to Kaguya.

During that time Naruto's base punches can only do this:

No Caption Provided

While in base Yhwach can do this with one finger, and the hole he left where he killed Yamamoto:

Newcomer said:

"Using her chakra arms her strength is enough to overpower perfect susanoo sasuke and naruto's chakra arms"

I'll concede to this part, fair enough she is multi mountain level+

But that won't be a problem for Yhwach, Kenpachi has also destroy a meteor and he is weaker than Yhwach, he even got wrecked by an elite Quincy and this feat:

Ichigo's "casual" swings were evaporating mountains around him. That's Mountain+ and they were "s" in plural making it at least Multi Mountain+.

Yhwach can easily parry Ichigo's blows with his cape, like they were nothing:

Yhwach explains to him that he gain the strength of Dangai Ichigo's level again with his true shikai. Yet he parrys it with his clothes:

We have reach,

Durability:

Newcomer said:

"Kaguya was able to tank 9 giant rasenshurikens."

She tanked those attack and afterwards she became unstable, in that form she regenerated the arm that Naruto cut from her and began to prep her ESTB for erasing the dimension.

Powers:

Newcomer said:

"Dimensional shifting, kaguya can bring herself and anybody in her range to one of her many dimensions which she can control."

It also takes at least 3-4 times before she runs out of chakra and has to retrive to her main dimension.

No Caption Provided

While Yhwach can just spam it:

Link to my other thread here:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/yhwachs-shadow-dimension-portal-quincy-technique-1773135/

Newcomer said:

"All killing Ash bones, with this she sends bones that can deteriorate your body to dust. Not even regeneration can stop it."

Alright, even so they are too slow for Yhwach, Naruto could easily dodge them the scan you show is followed by a chapter were his plan was set in motion, he purposely let the clone get hit by it:

Yhwach also has: (from the letters)

  • Intangibility
  • Can create Shadow Portals in seconds
  • Aversion Field
  • etc

And their durability isn't that great they easily tarnished a part with Sasuke's Susano'o at activation point, while Yhwach has blut to protect his body as well:

With Blut Vene Yhwach can extend this defence outside of his body in a protective forcefield that consumes everything in close proximity in order to fuel the technique.

Newcomer said:

"Truth seeking ball, kaguya has shown she possesses the ability to create tsb's and make them extremely huge and powerful."

Kaguya only show to be able to use a ETSB not TSB and since they are in character she won't rely on that, even do it was shown that when a TSB is destroy it remains that way. Kaguya had none during her fight. But i'll let it pass.

Everything else seems good. Your turn.

Conclusion:

  • Yhwach possesses the speed advantage over her with Sub-Relativistic (with low-ball) speed, reactions and movements, with that said he can't react to her light speed reactions, but his Bankai if enough to deal with that: (not counting his other hax abilities)

  • Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi and Sakura had a problem with swing down on lava for 3 whole chapters, so PIS doesn't count for their human body durability, Susano'o or chakra cloths are not included just their normal bodies:

Even if it was PIS they were hurt by Kunai's and swords before, i have to either downplayed which i don't want to, since we have seen then tank nukes (bijudama's) or accept the fact that their "energy" isn't as strong as the real thing, but that would imply that Sage Art: Storm Release Light Fang isn't lightspeed, because in away is still connected to chakra energy. Same goes for Bleach there are light based attacks and they are not lightspeed why because the energy is a pseudo energy but i could argue that is real light with two ways, show you the scan where it's stated that is not reishi (the energy) or use reishi as a base since reishi comes from nature as well.

Now:

Lava burns at:

2,120 F inside a Volcano which is 1,160 C that would had kill team 7 according to PIS, even do they tanked nukes before with chakra and tail beasts cloths, which shouldn't be any problem for them.

Kaguya take a direct Amateratsu: (Which burns as hot as the sun itself)

Kishimoto didn't specify a number. So we go with a low-ball like with do with everything, google says that the sun's temperature normally is:

5,778 K which is 5,504 C

Now Yamamoto's Bankai, doesn't only show feats and exposition but it also gives us a number:

15 Million Degree C as hot as the sun's core, which is 27 Million Degree F.

Kaguya cannot see the flames and she won't be able to get near him with her guard down, even with lightspeed reactions, she has never tanked something this hot before.

  • His Hax are beyond Kaguya's.
  • He possesses strength beyond shattering multiple mountains, even his cape is a mountain tanker.
  • Yhwach's may not possess much durability feats right now, but he's Hax makes for it.
  • Both The Wind and The X Axis are enough to nullify attacks.

  • His hax are precog, future sight into all possible futures, nigh-omniscient, immunity to all powers, stealing powers (he has like 3 ways of doing this),dimensional travel, and etc.

I'm not fond on how Kaguya keeps getting her powers stolen over the series, but they do have a history of being stolen. Even the Chibaku Tensei performed once by Hagoromo and his brother and then by himself along with Naruto and Sasuke sealed her up, nullifying her abilities.

This should be enough for a warn off, your turn and Good Luck.

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@ryuuzakiscorpio: sorry I can't fit all my counters in one post so please wait for both counter posts before continuing. Please and thank you.

Counters:

Speed:

"Let's start with Yhwach's first fight against Ichibei, in his base form Yhwach was able to fight almost on par with Ichibei.Which is mach 3585.27 for IchibeiNot Sub-relativistic, just plain MHS+ i won't use the T5F speed calc for this."

First let me say I read the link. Alright I want to know how ichibei is hypersonic, no scans were used, no powerscaling or statements from other characters what proves he is hypersonic? The calc used there own fanmade distance which was nnever even hinted at in any cannon source, making it 2 things- non cannon meaning not relevant here and wrong, pixel scaling based on someones drawings which as you know kubo doesn't always draw things the right size. so not hypersonic unless you have scans or an actual distance suggesting this.

"http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Gallavant/Bleach_-_Mimihagi's_speed

With a 20 minute assume frame (which is a huge lowball) he is Mach 14616.43+, or Sub-Relativistic. (0.0166c)"

i read the link again but it didn't give me a distance that mimihagi crossed in 20 minutes, if she crossed a state in 20 minutes this is extremely unimpressive, although this one actually used feats it didn't really give me a distance so nothing really makes him or Yhwach even hypersonic based on what you said.

Strength:

"Raw strength doesn't matter in debates is the force of striking an enemy which matters but just incase i'll leave here: (This feat only applies if Yhwach has all of his powers, assuming all the Quincy's are dead. I will explain further in the power and abilities section).With the Power of the Letter "P" The Power-Yhwach should be able to lift at least this much: (There's also another ability which doubles his power) more in the ability section."

I actually don't see anything wrong with this one other than is it passive or does he willingly activate it, if he does need to activate it I will need proof he would actually use it.

Destructive capability:

In the Destructive capability Yhwach is Moon level after absorbing the Soul King.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach-_Yhwach_elevates_the_Vandenreich

He lifted the whole Vandenreich/Wandenreich which cover all of Seireitei in the second invasion, from the dimension above it, in a short period of time without lifting a finger:"

I don't even wanna know how you got this one, first they use a fanmade speed and distance supplying no scans to suggest it WHATSOEVER, they next made it a dc feat when really it's a strength feat because he LIFTED it not destroyed anything. It was shown in the manga the vandereich is about seiretei's size so lets use the ACTUAL MANGA to find its size.

No Caption Provided

Youruichi says it takes 10 days to go to each gate of the seiretei so

How big is the seireitei.

each of Seireitei's gates is supposedly a 10 day walk apart. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to proceed under the assumption that Seireitei is essentially a circle with four equidistant points along its perimeter, and that walking distance means taking the most direct path from one gate to another (ie., traveling along the perimeter). That means 40 days of walking to start at a given gate, travel the circumference of Seireitei, and return to the same gate.

Average walking speed for a human is 5 km/h. We'll say that if you're walking, you'll be taking breaks to eat, rest your muscles, take care of your bodily functions, sleep, etc. We'll be conservative and say that you'll spend 6 hours walking.

5 km/h * 6 h/day = 30 km/day

circumference of Seireitei = 30 km/day * 40 days = 1200 km

circumference = 2 pi * r

-> 1200 = 2pi * r

-> r = ~191 km, so Seireitei is about 382 km in diameter

area of Seireitei = pi * r^2

-> pi * (191)^2 = 1.15 * 10^5 km = 115,000 sq km

This would make Seireitei a bit smaller than North Korea in size (which is 120,538 sq km, according to most sources I find). To think about it another way, it's about the size of the US state of Ohio, and you could fit six copies of Seireitei inside of the state of Texas. Meaning the strength of his telekinesis (NOT DC since he didn't destroy anything) is At BEST state level using the manga not fan made numbers.

Durability:

"Yhwach in Almighty before absorbing anyone tanked Ichigo's swing with his cape.Yhwach told him that he gain the strength of Dangai Ichigo's level again with his true shikai. Yet he parrys it with his clothes"

Yeah I don't think so, how do we know he was telling the truth or that he lied like Aizen especially when in the scan you posted Yorouichi says its a trick:

No Caption Provided

"Explained best by Yhwach himself here, Yhwach become nigh-omniscient able to perceive everything from the moment he activates this ability up toward the far future. Everything he sees, he can also fully understand, so therefore all ‘abilities’ that he sees becomes his allies and has no effect on him.Any ability is therefore negated by Yhwach as there is nothing that can obstruct his comprehension or counter-measuring."

Yeah well it does have its limits as Aizen was able to use his ability on Yhwach without him stopping it and same with Yammamoto.

No Caption Provided

This is all without even mentioning how big of a no limits fallacy it would be saying he can stop ANY attack no matter how powerful, this means we go by on what he ACTUALLY stopped. Which mind you is nothing on kaguya's level.

"Ichigo Getsuga didn't even left a strach ofhim, negated as he did with Ichibei Temple of none reincarnation:"

This would be a good durability feat but since he negated something he has no feats to suggest he could do it to Kaguya's attacks, it is extremely useless.

"He received blows of 3927 meters per seconds a few times as an Ant and he was like nothing happen."

Impressive but still nothing to suggest that he could even take Kaguya's straight up mountain level physical strength.

Abilities:

"As the progenitor of the Quincy, Yhwach has access to all of the basic & advanced Quincy abilities:

Blut: The user makes Reishi flow through their bloodstream, drastically increasing their attack and defence power to superhuman levels. The only flaw with this technique is that both attack and defence cannot be increased simultaneously forcing the user to choose between them.

  • Blut Arterie – the user increases their attack power immensely.

  • Blut Vene – the user increases their durability immensely, marked by a vein-like pattern on their body where the technique is focused. Blut Vene Anhaben – the user can extend this defence outside of their body in a protective forcefield that consumes everything in close proximity in order to fuel the technique."

I see nothing wrong here but what is the strongest thing his blut vein protected against?

"Kaguya and Yhwach are both over a thousand years old but intelligence wise Yhwach has over two millennia experience as a warrior, along with being the Emperor of the Wandenreich, and a true genius in strategies while Kaguya's intelligence if that of an average princess who depended on Black Zetsu to fight Naruto & Sasuke and form strategies. (Kaguya go create an army of fodders to destroy Momoshiki again, when you can do that by yourself with your power.) Whoever thinks Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya, be reminded how did he lost again. The scrolls said he was stronger than Kaguya, but she was the one who wrote them, she is not that intelligent whatsoever."

Now I am not saying kaguya is smarter, just pointing out a few things wrong here. First, being over a thousand years old apparently doesn't make you that smart in bleach, Yammamoto a guy as old as Yhwach turned his back on an enemy equally as powerful as himself, without making sure he was dead and completely let his guard down and got killed. Momoshinki was taking on naruto and sasuke as adults at the same time and only lost because they took out his rinnegan and hit him with a super charged vanishing rasengsn from naruto and boruto. So saying she is unintelligent because she thought they were a threat is wrong.

"By the Quincy Letters he should have from A-Z:

Examples:

  • Cheering Empowerment
  • Fear Manipulation
  • Heat Manipulation
  • Enemy Imprisonment
  • Lightning Manipulation
  • Superhuman Strength
  • Reality Warping
  • Zombie Creation
  • Intangibility (Spatial Piercing & Spatial Phasing)
  • Invincibility
  • Power copying & memory copying & appearance copying
  • Clones
  • Aversion Field

With his imagination he should be able to do things of this level"

To my knowledge he gave those powers to his sternritter, meaning he never used them and it isn't in character for him to do so. If we are are just giving out powers we THINK they should have, kaguya should have every jutsu in the naruto verse since she was the originator and has all chakra types. But we don't say that because we go off feats so if he hasn't used those abilities he can't.

"Yhwach stole Yamamoto’s Bankai from him before killing him through a Quincy medallion. The four techniques of this Bankai are:"

Alright has Yhwach ever used these abilities, if not then there is no reason to believe he would or could use them here of all places. If he can please post scans of him using them.

  • "Longsword of the Remnant Flame, East: Rising Sun Edge: Automatically activated at release, this ability concentrates the intense flames of the sword along the edge of the blade. It neither burns nor erupts, but anything it touches is eradicated to nothingness. Even the defensive power of the Wandenreich's Blut Vene cannot stand up against this technique."

Suppose you do post scans of him being able to use this, it seems alright.

  • "Longsword of the Remnant Flame, West: Remnant Sun Prison Garb: Automatically activated at release, this ability is unseen by the eyes of anyone else unless the user wills it to be seen. It engulfs his body in heat which reaches a temperature upwards of 15,000,000 degrees. Therefore, it becomes impossible to even touch him while he is using his Bankai. The level of heat produced by this technique is so high, it would not actually appear in the form of flames."

Yeah I have a few problems with this, first how does Yammamoto know that his bankai is as hot as the sun? Has he been there? Did he measure the temperature himself? What. Not only that but his supposed 15,000,000 degree heat that stops the opponent can't even burn the ground he is standing on let alone kaguya. So no nothing suggests that his bankai is anywhere CLOSE to the suns temperature.

"Longsword of the Remnant Flame, South: Great Burial Ranks of the Ten Trillion Fire Dead:Impaling the tip of his sword into the ground, the user calls upon the corpses and ashes of the dead who were killed by his flames to come forth and fight on his behalf. Using the heat of his sword on their ashes, he can rouse all the people he has killed, allowing the corpses to become his limbs and attack whomever he deems as his enemy until they become dust. He can bring forth any specific corpse which he wishes, allowing him to inflict psychological damage upon those with connections to those he has slain."

If you can provide scans to suggest Yhwach can and will use this, I see no problem with this ability.

  • "Longsword of the Remnant Flame, North: Heaven and Earth End in Ashes: A slash of concentrated fire and heat which incinerates whatever it touches out of existence."

If you can provide scans to suggest he can and will use this, I see no problem with this.

"The flames are concentrated around him, preventing short range attacks from the enemy, his feets are not engulfed in flames to prevent the environment around him from being destroyed and that's why only the edge of the sword has the flames:"

Again being even near the ground that kind of heat would do more than simply start evaporating moisture and when his sword at the supposed temperature of the sun touched the ground it would have done more than simply a fissure in the ground. So no not the sun's temperature.

Conclusions: (Pt 1 of 2 posts)

  • No evidence was given to suggest Yhwach was even hypersonic, just fan made numbers which is non cannon and a baseless calc. So kaguya easily has the speed advantage.
  • Kaguya has the strength advantage, even if Yhwach has a building level strength and state level telekinetic strength( in lifting) kaguya has multi mountain level physical strength easily exceeding Yhwaches strength.
  • Kaguya has the durability advantage, with muti continental level durability, while AT best Yhwach is mountain level meaning he can't even survive punches from Kaguya.
  • Kaguya has the Destructive capacity with multi mountain level punches and a truth seeking ball that was said to be able to destroy a planet.
  • Hax advantage also goes to kaguya as her abilities give her one shot wins and make her nearly untouchable. Yhwach has hax although it can't kill or stop Kaguya's attacks by feats .
  • Overall kaguya completely obliterates yhwach with an advantage over all categories.

Remember, I am still not finished my counters. I will have tthe rest tomorrow morning so please wait for me to post it.

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#48 emperorthanos-  Moderator

lol this is becoming more entertaining than I expected. So much High-balling by both sides.

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@newcomer Basically, your asking without knowing. Interesting, i'll wait for your second post before starting. I like to present everything in one post. Seems fine with you?

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@ryuuzakiscorpio: Alright thanks, I wasn't able to get all of it in so I am about to start on it.