CaV: Kaguya(Hope_w) vs composite Bleach character

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#1 Edited by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaguya(Hope_w):

No Caption Provided

Composite Shinigami(LimitlessSigil):

No Caption Provided

Rules:

  • Both characters are fully composite from all forms of official illustration across the respective series.
  • Composite gear
  • Win by any means
  • Chakra = Reitsu
  • For other stipulations Check here
  • This is a debate between me and my opponent, don't intervene, hold all opinions until after the debate, and lastly bleach and Narutards are restricted from voting to keep it on the fair side. You know who you are.
  • List atleast several reasons why you think that person won, as detailed as possible. Bias will not be counted.
  • Takes place on lifeless indestructible planet

Just pointing this out before this begins, I was going to originally use Edo-Madara and DMS Kakashi (as they solo the verse, yes, even independantly) however my opponent talked himself up to Kaguya and I want him to be 1000% positively certain that he thinks he can win this. Being said hope everyone enjoys the read, I certainly will enjoy putting it together.

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#2 Posted by YhwachSOLOKING (307 posts) - - Show Bio

What a mismatch, multiple Bleach chars solo.

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#3 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

@yhwachsoloking: tagging a mod next time, we don't need people like you already flooding the thread. Consider that a warning

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#4 Edited by JOVIOLMA (7346 posts) - - Show Bio

Top Ten Anime Battles.

T4V......?

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#5 Posted by The_God (143 posts) - - Show Bio

Taep

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#6 Posted by LimitlessSigil (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: I'm confused on what you mean by "Both characters are fully composite" How does that apply to Kaguya.

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#7 Posted by UltimateSage (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, mmhh....ok...

TAEP and T4V

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#8 Posted by YhwachSOLOKING (307 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: I'm confused on what you mean by "Both characters are fully composite" How does that apply to Kaguya.

What's it to be confused about? That sentence is self explanatory, should I bust out Webster and urban dictionary?

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#10 Posted by RikuYamaha (1545 posts) - - Show Bio

well i guess TAEP and T4V

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#11 Posted by LimitlessSigil (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w said:
@limitlesssigil said:

@hope_w: I'm confused on what you mean by "Both characters are fully composite" How does that apply to Kaguya.

What's it to be confused about? That sentence is self explanatory, should I bust out Webster and urban dictionary?

I'm asking what Composite Kaguya refers to, she's one entity with only one version of herself.

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#12 Posted by The_God (143 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w said:
@limitlesssigil said:

@hope_w: I'm confused on what you mean by "Both characters are fully composite" How does that apply to Kaguya.

What's it to be confused about? That sentence is self explanatory, should I bust out Webster and urban dictionary?

I'm asking what Composite Kaguya refers to, she's one entity with only one version of herself.

Games, Novels and Anime only feats? Sorry for intruding. Good luck to both of you.

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#13 Posted by LimitlessSigil (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: Ladies first? Or shall I do the honors?

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#16 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

@rikuyamaha: delete that unnecessarily long post please.

Also I don't care who opens, I might have something up layer today. 9/10 my opening statement is going to end the debate.

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#17 Posted by LimitlessSigil (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w said:

@rikuyamaha: delete that unnecessarily long post please.

Also I don't care who opens, I might have something up layer today.

That's fine, you can start. Outcome won't change.

9/10 my opening statement is going to end the debate.

I'm looking forward to it.

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#18 Posted by RikuYamaha (1545 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Darthjhawk (5667 posts) - - Show Bio

Get em Hope!

Online
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#20 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3974 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by ovy7 (3434 posts) - - Show Bio

. . . ok

TAEP and T4V, please.

Online
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#22 Posted by Supermanthor (22653 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 said:

. . . ok

TAEP and T4V, please.

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#23 Edited by deactivated-5c97780a71ae4 (568 posts) - - Show Bio

oof Composite Kaguya is no joke and can put up more of a fight than people realize TAEP

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#24 Edited by ourmanuel (12609 posts) - - Show Bio

There’s gonna be a lot of asspulls here Limitless.

I hope you’ve watched all the fillers and video games.

TAEP

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#25 Posted by LimitlessSigil (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

There’s gonna be a lot of asspulls here Limitless.

I hope you’ve watched all the fillers and video games.

TAEP

Unfortunately I haven't, even though Hope made no mention of him using Composite Kaguya when we agreed on this, I'm still confident I can win. Even if Kaguya turns out to be Outerversal from some obscure Naruto game.

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#26 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't worry, I'll shut you up with canon before any video game feats are posted.

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#27 Posted by TheEmperor95 (1805 posts) - - Show Bio

Where did that bleach character pic come from?

TAEP

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#28 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18865 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#29 Posted by FaradaySloth (11143 posts) - - Show Bio

....T4V?

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#30 Posted by Ouroborik (4077 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#31 Posted by Streak619 (8159 posts) - - Show Bio

taep

Online
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#32 Posted by InvadedTBD (1873 posts) - - Show Bio

Please tag lol

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#34 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by UltimateSage (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

You're speaking some good facts, but midora level kaguya?no

TAEP and T4V

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#36 Edited by YhwachSOLOKING (307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatesage: Seeing as I can get Kaguya to universal+ based on some statements possible she could surpass Midora in AP/DC... but it doesn't matter when Midora statues and solos the entire verse with minority world alone, and can scale to Neo Acacia who could literally blitz out of Sky Deers back channel thus moving back through time and space.

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#37 Posted by deactivated-5c9e122a6bc32 (2290 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't wait for the counter.

Tag for Vote.

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#38 Posted by UltimateSage (3965 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatesage: Kaguya isn't fast enough to mess with Midora but if he or Norrin don't beat her quickly they both can lose, compositely speaking that is.....otherwise even I am beyond that level of wank.

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#40 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Had to repost.

Kaguya Otsutsuki:

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Princess Kaguya Ōtsutsuki (大筒木カグヤ, Ōtsutsuki Kaguya) is the former matriarch of the Ōtsutsuki clan and mother of Hagoromo and Hamura Ōtsutsuki. Long before the founding of the hidden villages, during an era of endless war, Kaguya consumed the fruit of the God Tree and became the first wielder of chakra on Earth, before later merging with the tree to become the Ten-Tails.

To put it plain and simple Kaguya is the singlemost powerful being in the entire HST by an indisputable margin. There is no other character who has her mix of Hax and physicals nor is there anyone else in the HST who has a larger scale of AP and overall potency. If you would ask for a reasonable tier to place Kaguya, it would be somewhere along the lines of mid-to-high Herald tier, around Surfer/Midora level.

However enough introductions I'm simply here to do what I'm best at, my apologies if it's a bit rushed. I have a much more interesting opponents to tend to.

Everyone whose seen me in action knows the drill.......:

Loading Video...

*Walks into courtroom approx 15 minutes late wearing a sparkling ocean blue 3 piece suit with matching tinted aviators; all the while escorting my blushing and clearly embarrassed client before escorting her to her seat and boldly taking the floor amidst hundreds of raised eyebrows.*

My Jury let's take it from the top shall we? I'm simply going to end any angle you could possibly approach this debate, this entire post is a devil's advocate that my opponent simply doesn't have the ability to play on.

Durability:

Nothing in bleach can harm Kaguya, even slightly; I'm positive your only response to this is will be a speculative NLF ability that hasn't been shown being utilized in the way you're going to argue for it along with a slue of fan calcs.

"Coming out the gate with these bold statements eh?"

Im sorry sir, it's just me.

First let's go ahead and establish physical damage, Kaguya has eaten continental amounts of damage to the face without even a sign of discomfort:

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Above we have Kaguya eating 9 country level Rasenshurikens all with a different assortment of Hax ranging from Oxidation, Acid, spiritual flames, and two different sealing techs, All without any real damage. Next we'll look at the scale of ONE of these attacks and we quite clearly see it dwarfs an ocean side as well as cover a chunk of the supercontient their on:

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  • Red = Sasuke perfect Susanoo
  • Yellow = a clearly dwarfed ocean side
  • Green = dwarfed mountain ranges covered by the DEBRIS of the meteors Madara dropped.

Lastly I'd like to conclude the point on the fact that it's consistent with a Canon map given to us within the first 20 chapters of the series:

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Green is the point where the war is being held, the red is the seaside in the above image. The only thing it managed to do was rile up the chakra inside her; which even with energies equalised is impossible due to the Shinigami not having the Tailed Beasts chakra.

Then we have to take into account the otherworldly regeneration she has, which is in all cases superior to anything in the bleach verse as well. Kaguya can regenerate from her pure Chakra astral form:

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Lesser Jinchuriki like Juubito who couldnt even handle the power of dual rinnegan(thus no third eye) have regenerated up to half of their entire body being completely vaporized:

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Even the point blank contact from an IMP that obliterated half of Madaras body was healed almost instantaneously to the point where he regens the limb the very next page:

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OF course this was all before he absorbed the Shinju tree and gained his second Rinnegan, opening his third eye which truly made him immortal. In which case right beforehand he tanked a sword through the heart with no signs of discomfort whatsoever:

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Then just after that ordeal he completely regenerated his lower half just as Sasuke Bisected him; he practically laughed about it and returned moments later fully healed:

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So what I'm getting at? Physically there is no way whatsoever to put Kaguya down, even if her body is completely destroyed she can always reform from her astral body which nobody in bleach has exhibited a seal strong enough to keep her down. In which case you could argue seals ignore strength, yet we've seen quite the opposite of that in bleach....

Chakra vs Reitsu:

Im probably going to piss a lot of people off with this one, however probably the best bleach debater on this website (ATB, but don't tell him I said that) has agreed the quantification regarding Reitsu reserves in Bleach is nothing but a pure guesstimation. However Based on feats? Sakura Reitsu crushes anyone in the verse with her casual continental reserves.

My evidence stems from the fact that Sakura used Katsuyu to constantly heal the entire Shinobi alliance after Tsunade went down against Madara; which is where we learn Katuyu's power is only based on how strong the user is:

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The relevance? Well let's see......Sakura continuously supplied chakra for days on end to the collective power source of the chunk of the planet:

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Ontop of fully restore Naruto whose chakra signature alone sends shockwaves through the entire planet as well:

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Next lets go ahead and outline where it's directly stated that the partial Juubi alone has planetary amounts of chakra with it being directly shown:

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So the Juubi missing two full Biju is already at planet level amounts of chakra, Madara absorbed all that, the Shinju tree as well as all of hashirama's Senjutsu. Which without question soundly places his reserves at planet+; however what does this have to do with Kaguya? Her mere presence is described by both Sasuke and Naruto to be on a completely different level than Madaras:

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This isn't even factoring in the planet level amplification she received afterwards from IT:

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So yea.....you can play the guesstimate game with Ywach destroying 'three world's' all you want, however the underlying fact that remains is Kaguya is irrefutably beyond planet level chakra reserves with no scaling, fanbased assumptions nor guesstimations needed.

InB4DubiosSKScale

Oh btw....and since every form of Hax and other forms of attack in the verse is negated by simply being stronger than said individual, that seals the deal. Let's take a look at some of the examples, starting with it being blatantly stated by Aizen himself as he no sells Soi Fon's Shikai:

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Then reaffirmed in the very same arc where ichigo again blatantly implicated the only reason he can resist his Hado effects s because he's more powerful:

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An even more direct example of this is the sterns beating up on a weakend Kenpachi while their attacks litterally have no effect on ichigo:

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So......all Hado, Quincy, and soul reaper abilities? All absolutely worthless from the sheer in-universe logic of bleach.

Physicals:

Oh my goodness gracious where do I even begin? First and foremost Lee (not guy, in base he blitzes 95% of the verse) would blitz and pound practically anyone in the verse without question. A massively better set of scaling and better quantifiable feats.

However Kaguya? Nobody in the verse can form a thought if she went for the kill off the bat. Meanwhile she can attack based on thought.

My evidence for this statement? Well let's see the Juubi Jin in juubito well before completetion could fodderize Minato in the midst of a teleblitz:

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Obito doesnt even have a third of the precognition that Kaguya has nor the physical amplifcations due to having an incomplete Juubi. Then we have the fact that Kaguya even before the amplification was fodderizing Naruto and Sasuke alike, Sasuke himself has instantaneous teleportation where as Naruto has indisputable nanosecond combat speed as seen where he dodges light a foot away from his face while freefalling and being physically held by Madaras Limbo:

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Then we have the added fact that both blitzed him just after he clearly perceived night Guy who is at the very least relativistic, at point blank range. Naruto blitzed him in base specifically, just as his thought activated TSB shielded him, notice how his body moves automatically to dodge even though he can't see it.

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Sasuke simply crossed a vast distance to cut him down, while Madara even praises his speed:

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So we can without a doubt substantiate their physical speed is around relativistic with even higher perception and combat speed, so basically LS overall. Kaguya treats them both like children as she fodderized an army of Naruto's:

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All the while treating Sasuke like an insect as not only did she react to his teleblitz, she dumped him elsewhere in the dimension before he could move:

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OF course this isn't even factoring in the planet level physical amplification she received after regenerating from her rabbit form; an amplification that was blatantly stated to have significantly increased her speed and power:

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Now instead of Naruto being able to barely tag her, he cant do so whatsoever without throwing tons of ploys at her and without the help of Kakashi at the end and she still would've been utterly untouchable if it wasn't for the clear plot device of Sakura at the end(Oh well...composite Sakura is BSM level), take note of ashbone Tagging Naruto despite Lightfang being dodged from a similar distance:

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Before the lowball session begins, Sakura can't even damage Kaguya and yes, she was aware she was overhead however she couldn't really do anything to stop her.....unless of course you think Sakura > Naruto > Sasuke physically. Hell since I'm using a composite Kaguya let's go ahead and outline that she can throw countless highspeed blows with Naruto/Sasuke and Sakura simultaneously:

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That alone effectively ends any debate in regards to combat speed...she has some other kewl VG feats but I'll save them.

Next we'll tackle strength, which Kaguya is irrefutably superior in as well due to her chakra amped physicals, Here it is explained in the manga:

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Litterally every Shinobi can do this and Sasuke is probably the prime example of that within the series as practically the only thing that changes about him is his eyes and chakra level. Kaguya casually busted a perfect susanoo while overpowering Naruto and laughing about it.

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An impartial Susanoo from a weaker Uchiha tanked a mountain busting attack without damage:

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Several thousand hands from Hashirama which dwarfed Mountain ranges and overpowered multi-mountain attacks only caused minimal damage to the actual armor:

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The best physical feat in bleach can't even be concretely estimated, the size of the Seireitei has never been concluded however we see clearly from an overhead view it's a city(however im sure my opponent is going to use a calc or two) so being as generous as possible one could say it's around mountain+ level. Where as a casual swipe from the Juubi is reshaping the map:

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And a mere finger flick is well beyond mountain level:

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So it's quite evident were dealing with two completely different levels of power here.

Precog:

Oh boy oh boy, I know you bleach stans are probably tired of me by now however the amount of precog Kaguya has practically makes it so the shinigami can't move period without her knowing about it and already having a counter in mind. Coupled with her space/time attacks whenever you're in range she can practically do whatever she wants to you.

Firstly let's begin with the Byakugan which grants the user x-ray vision in a 360 degree angle minus a small blind spot at the Nape of the neck:

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With it the user can litterally focus on the most infinitesimal detail within the eyes range, Neji first used this to not only see through opponents in the chuunin exams and was able to mimic every move of the pencil strokes of the guy infront of him.

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The extent of this range is never shown however Hinata and Neji both have identified targets stated to be miles ahead, in-fact Hinata identified Sasuke and Itatchi's fight from over 10km:

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Kaguya used this immediately at the beginning of the fight to notice the weakpoints of Sasukes Hawk and take it down:

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Then we have the more famous Sharingan, which picks up on enemy muscle movement to the point where they physically envision the opponents next move:

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Having this stacked with the Byakugan alone is absolutely broken however that's not all, since the Sharingan also allows the user to see through any illusion while also being able to copy any technique, the official translation even lists it as 'magics':

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However even the Sharingan pales in comparrison so Kaguyas last stack of Precog, Senjutsu sensing makes her effectively untouchable, it allows you to use the Natural energy around you as an extension of your body:

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This gives the user awareness to things he can't even see and moves his body for him automatically so he can always counter at the last possible second, as evident when Naruto did so both against the Raikage and more impressively against Madaras Limbo clone, which he has no way whatsoever of detecting:

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And the kicker for this one? It doesn't have a range; litterally anywhere natural energy exists she can use it as an extension of her body, as evident not only by Naruto sensing the war from countries away in near perfect detail:

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As well as a half if Kurama being able to manipulate all the Senjutsu on the entire planet:

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But also the fact she can perfectly manipulate her dimensions without the need of actually being present:

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So not only does Kaguya have 360 degree Sharingan Vision for miles, she also has Senjutsu that allows her to sense practically anywhere on the planet. Therefore no move whatsoever can be made without her knowing about it, therefore since the staggering speed advantage exists she will never be tagged by anything the shinigami has to offer.

Offensive Capabilities:

Anything in Kaguyas arsenal oneshots anyone in bleach, not only does she have attacks that virtually atomize people with her level of durability, she has attacls that erase Space/time. Coupled with her other teleportation and dimension hax that make the Shinigami helpless.

Firstly let's begin with TSB, when combining all the basic elemental natures it is directly stated as superior to Onoki's Molecular Manipulation:

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Not only is Onoki's attack a visualized fission bomb but Jinton specifically dismantles atoms from the Molecule as stated by the name of the attack:

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and as per The databook which directly confirms so:

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So basically what I'm getting at is TSB ignores standard durability and targets the atomic structure(which Juubito regen'd from), however this isn't even close to what TSB can do when imbued with all elements including Yin/Yang destroys space/time as stated by zetsu:

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This is appearant by Minato's arms not regenerating despite Edo-Tensei, and as well as his spirit missing arms when it was finally released:

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However IMO, I must say that Kaguyas Ashbone is superior to the standard mix of all the elemental natures as even with sixpaths chakra as well as Naruto attempting to heal him with his Light seal it completely atomized Obito:

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Despite previously being able to tank and regen an exploding TSB that took away half his body (check my durability section, trying not to spam the same scans). Then we have the added fact Kaguya can attack from litterally anywhere due to being able to blatantly tear through space/time on a whim:

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And this of course is all forgetting her most important and powerful ability granted by her third eye, only those who have unlocked all stages of the Sharingan, evolved it into the Rinnegan, and lastly awaken it in both eyes finally shall the third eye Open to reveal the truth to the world; Infinite Tsukuyomi which works by reflecting the Genjutsu off the moon:

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IT is far from standard planetary TP though, it's continous mental enslavement that physically changes the person over time, it is better explained here:

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Now to put that into perspective with other Genjutsu, the regular Tsukuyomi alters the perception of space time to the point where it could even kill an opponent:

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The direct opposite of KS which is simply an illusionary technique that can do absolutely nothing physically.

And lastly one of the most uncounterable hax ever devised, Kaguya is able to freely change dimensions as well as previously shown able to use Senjutsu to freely control them:

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if I were going solely off the manga Kaguyas dimensions are based on planet's however they are a bit larger due to having stars and moons. But via scaling from the novel where momo casually busts a star:

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We can without a doubt say Kaguya is on a similar if not higher level. I'm just gonna end it on that note as I am in quite the hurry, don't worry I know I left out quite a bit such as the Rinnegan abilities however I've got better things to do seeing as my opponent isn't worth the extended effort

Conclusion:

It's quite simple actually..

  • Nobody in bleach has continental damage output
  • Nobody in bleach has molecular to Atomic durability feats
  • Nobody in bleach has planet level TP
  • Nobody in bleach has moon level seals
  • Nobody in bleach can survive being erased from Space/time
  • Nobody in bleach has a Reitsu level anywhere near Kaguyas
  • Nobody in bleach has LS or even factual relativistic combat speed
  • Nobody in bleach is above multi mountain(that in itself is generous) attacks
  • Nobody in bleach has dealt with someone as powerful as Kaguya
  • Nobody in bleach even has a form of divine energy, therefore by default nothing to harm kaguya

Therefore my only strategy needed in this battle is for Kaguya to simply do whatever she wants, practically any in-character attack ends the battle. Oh and since I'm fairly certain my opponents only argument is going revolved around almighty, let's address it.

Kaguya steps outside the Space/time, GG:

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*Tosses papers on desk, takes seat, and props legs up only to lightly peck my client on the cheek*

Im sorry my jury but this case is in all cases, dismissed.

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#41 Posted by vsw (2938 posts) - - Show Bio

Midora isn't Herald tier.

T4V.

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#42 Posted by YhwachSOLOKING (307 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by vsw (2938 posts) - - Show Bio

@yhwachsoloking: yes, buts lets not start cluttering the thread. That is a discussion for another time and place.

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#44 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

@vsw: how isn't multi-planet not Herald tier? Unless you're arguing him to be teambuster level in the same sense guys like wally and Surfer are

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#45 Posted by vsw (2938 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: could we continue this discussion elsehere? I'd really rather I don't clutter your thread.

Another thread or a PM. Just tag me there and I'll respond when's available.

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#47 Posted by HypeBeastCSB15 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio

A bit of misinformation and downplay, but TAEP nonetheless

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#48 Posted by The_God (143 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: Very well done. I am excited to see where it goes.

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#49 Posted by ovy7 (3434 posts) - - Show Bio

This gonna be fun!

Online
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#50 Posted by deactivated-5c97780a71ae4 (568 posts) - - Show Bio

Some downplay on the Bleach side but this should be interesting none the less TAEP