CaV: k4tzm4n (Bane) Vs Strider92 (Bullseye)

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Strider1992

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#1  Edited By Strider1992

Bane(k4tzm4n)

Vs

Bullseye(Strider92)

Conditions:

  • Bane is Pre-52 and on "Knightfall" Venom
  • Bullseye is armed with his assorted projectile weapons (Shuriken, throwing knives etc...)
  • Morals On
  • Both have basic knowledge on the other
  • No Prep
  • Win by Death, KO or Incap

Location:

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Strider1992

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#2  Edited By Strider1992

Here it is. Read through the OP when you have time and let me know if there's something you don't like or anything i've failed to specify and we'll kick this off whenever we can :)

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#3  Edited By Deranged Midget

This should be good...

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k4tzm4n

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#4  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

Looks good! Now all it requires is info on starting distance/spots.

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slimj87d

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#5  Edited By slimj87d

@Deranged Midget: I agree. Is this debate to the death?

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#6  Edited By Deranged Midget

@SlimJ87D: KO/Death/Incap.

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Strider1992

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#7  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n: How far do you think is fair? As I said i'm looking to be educated on Bane here and Bullseye is pretty dangerous at a range so as i'm not entirely sure what Bane is capable of I don't want to give an unfair distance to either character :p

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k4tzm4n

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#8  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92: I think something like this would be fair.

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#9  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n: Updated. Howz that?

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k4tzm4n

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#10  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92: Good stuff! I'll try to make an opening argument tonight. You're obviously free to post whenever you'd like!

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#11  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n: Unless I fall asleep yeah lol. Don't worry if you don't have time now i'm quite happy to pick it up later.

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#12  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92: Well, I'll get this party started. As you know, I love both characters and I do believe I can consider myself as an expert on both. While Bullseye's uncanny accuracy will prove incredibly challenging, I believe Bane has what it takes to overcome, allowing him to close the gap and best Lester in close range -- all thanks to his pain tolerance, underestimated speed/agility, skill, the environment, and of course, Lester's tendency to toy with targets instead of going for an immediate kill. However, I don't believe Bane will by any means take a large majority. At most, I can only see him taking an absolutely trivial majority of 5.5-6/10 and can easily agree on a stalemate for an outcome (both earning 5/10).

First and foremost, Bullseye's lethal accuracy is the biggest obstacle. A lot of people think Bane is a slow brute and understandable so. His appearance doesn't exactly scream mobile and Gail Simone put an emphasis on him being more of a brute in SECRET SIX. However, I'll now hopefully prove why Bane's agility and speed are not to be underestimated and indeed support him being able to navigate this environment:

Dodges a batarang from Bruce Wayne -- a character who we know is quite accurate. This also showcases his jumping capabilities.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....eofbanepg52.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....eofbanepg53.jpg

While he acted like a damage soaking tank in SECRET SIX, he's proven to be smarter than that over the years. He's not above using the environment for cover (or even as a weapon):

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....omics666-15.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....tman492pg16.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....tman492pg17.jpg

Bane's best agility display as he dodges 3 batarangs from Batman:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....cs701pg16-1.jpg

A very solid display of his agility and speed. He has his venom set-up, but he is in fact not using venom.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....ified017018.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....ified017019.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....ified017020.jpg

Just in case anyone doesn't believe me:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....sified01805.jpg

Vanishes from Tim Drake while being followed:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/vsrobin1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/vsrobin2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/vsrobin3.jpg

Dodging sword strikes from Ubu:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....hedemon0414.jpg

Follows Batman across Gotham's rooftops without being detected:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....eofbanepg44.jpg

Able to throw a pick-axe before an officer can react:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/reflex1-1.jpg

Blitzes a gunman before he can react:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/reflex2-1.jpg

"Those are some solid agility and speed feats, k4tz, but Bullseye regularly fights Daredevil, a character with better agility and speed!"

Absolutely true, random person. This display was just to prove that it's a misconception that Bane is slow or careless. He's faster and more agile than many give credit for. Closing the distance and navigating in this environment won't be an issue for him, but odds are Bullseye will tag him. Thankfully, Bane has plenty of pain tolerance feats to prove he won't go down easily and getting tagged while on approach won't deter him.

Takes 3 batarangs to the wrist:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k560....tman500pg40.jpg

Lets Catman pummel him and puts an end to it when he wants to. Even mocks Catman's strikes:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix35005.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix35006.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix35009.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix35010.jpg

Takes a batarang to the thigh, doesn't slow him down nor will it during the continued fight:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/eba....6_122_421lo.jpg

Getting stabbed in the hand won't be a hindrance... if anything, it might help:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix34019.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/SecretSix34020.jpg

Stabbed in the thigh and slashed across his body. Continues to fight just fine immediately after:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/stab1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/stab2.jpg'

Goes unfazed from a bullet to the shoulder. Then uses the same arm to break the man's wrist:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/shot1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/shot2.jpg

Struck by weapons and proceeds to humiliate the attackers:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/PAIN.jpg

Jean-Paul Valley commenting on Bane's (off venom) endurance:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/CLIMB1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/CLIMB2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/CLIMB3.jpg

Jean-Paul Valley says that striking Bane (off venom) is like "hitting a bag of cement:"

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/DURABILITY.jpg

Baseball bat to the back of the head = ain't a thing:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/1165444-banebat_super.jpg

Won't apply to this match, but here's Bane withstand an electric attack as well as an explosion:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/PAIN2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/explosion1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/explosion2.jpg

Hopefully this is more than enough to prove that Bane can in fact withstand a good amount of punishment from Lester. There's no denying the fact that Bullseye will eventually tag Bane (be it the shoulder, chest, leg, or wherever), but Bane has a more than adequate history showing that he can still remain more than combat effective while suffering injuries that would hinder most people.

"But what about when he gets in close range? Won't Bullseye pummel him?" Good question. Lester's skilled but in my opinion Bane is a more effective close range combatant.

Bane has swiftly bested Nightwing twice (both times written by Chuck Dixon), had multiple brutal and close fights with JPV (all had factors), a stalemate with Batman and a brutal fight with Batman that he eventually loses (for some reason, Bane attempted to drown Batman. Batman then found the strength to overcome and took the fight from there). All of these (except for 2 vs JPV) are off venom as well. If you require scans, I'll provide them for this section tomorrow.

On top of being more skilled and, in my opinion, being able to close the gap, Bane is physically superior to Bullseye -- even more now that he's on venom. While off venom, Bane has ripped off limbs, pulled off a wall to a jail cell and pushed over a rather large statue. On venom, his strength is boosted to roughly the 2 ton range. This also helps him tolerate more pain. Again, if needed, I can provide scans for this section tomorrow as well.

This is going to be a close and violent fight that could potentially come down to a coin toss. While Bullseye brings great accuracy to the table, he's also arrogant, less formidable physically and not quite as skilled. Thanks to this environment and Bane being on venom though, I think he has the potential to take it from a stalemate to a trivial majority.

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Whoa! This is heated!

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#14  Edited By slimj87d

@Deranged Midget said:

@SlimJ87D: KO/Death/Incap.

I actually met a death of a debater =/ but that's just my dark humor.

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#15  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

Get'em Strider92!!!

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#16  Edited By JamesKM716

This should be quite entertaining. Good luck to both!

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#17  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Vance Astro said:

Get'em Strider92!!!

You're dead to me.

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#18  Edited By Deranged Midget

Sides have been chosen, alliances broken...

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#19  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@k4tzm4n said:

@Vance Astro said:

Get'em Strider92!!!

You're dead to me.

HA!
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Strider1992

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#20  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n: So it begins!

First off I do agree with you. Bane is more agile than a lot of people give him credit for and dodging Batman's projectiles on top of the other feats you've posted proves that. However I do not think he is on par with Bullseye (not that you were claiming he was away). Bullseye's speed and agility has allowed him to pull of such feats as dodging multiple eye-blasts from Cyclops(who is of course very accurate in his own right), Dodging multiple cards thrown by Gambit and getting to the top of a building at the same time as Gambit despite giving him a head-start:

As you said yourself Bullseye does regularly go toe on toe with DareDevil who is of course extremely agile. So I don't think you'll argue with me that Bullseye has Bane outclassed in the agility department. Another good demonstration of speed is kicking Elektra off the top of a building but still arriving at the bottom before she hits the ground. He even comments that she was slow:

Again Bane dodging Batman's projectiles in an impressive display of speed and agility but i'm confident when I say that Bullseye throws his projectiles much harder and faster than Bruce as well as being more accurate:

If you needed anymore convincing about the speed of his projectiles he has been able to tag both Daken and Spider-man. Granted Daken wasn't expecting Bullseye to attack him but given Daken's reaction speeds in the past this is still impressive. Also Spider-man was injured here however even injured Spider-man does still have a spider-sense and does still have super-human reflexes so even though tagging a Spider-man who isn't at 100% isn't as good as tagging one who is considering Spider-man's reaction speeds it does say something about the speed o the projectiles.

Bane is also quite a big guy. I'm not saying this detracts from his agility what it does do is give Lester a bigger target to aim at and for someone who can hit someone else with a tooth-pick from 100 yards a bigger target just makes things easier.

@k4tzm4n said:

First and foremost, Bullseye's lethal accuracy is the biggest obstacle. A lot of people think Bane is a slow brute and understandable so. His appearance doesn't exactly scream mobile and Gail Simone put an emphasis on him being more of a brute in SECRET SIX. However, I'll now hopefully prove why Bane's agility and speed are not to be underestimated and indeed support him being able to navigate this environment:

I do agree with this in a certain sense. If the environment was open poor ol Bane would most likely be peppered with projectiles before he knew what was happening. In this environment Bane has cover and won't be forced to run into Bullseye's line of fire. However although it does limit Bullseye's options it does open up another. It is not uncommon for Lester to ricochet his projectiles around in order to his his target:

This is something that would most likely catch Bane off guard. He would not expect a knife to fly past him and then come back. It has tricked people in the past so I don't see why this would not be a possibility for Bane too. Due to all the containers Bullseye has more than enough objects to rebound from and perform this kind of attack with.

@k4tzm4n said:

Lester's tendency to toy with targets instead of going for an immediate kill.

This is also true to certain extent. We saw that in his fight with Deadpool (although to be fair both him and Deadpool seemed to be messing around there) but he is also capable of outright killing the target if he has too. He did this to Elektra by throwing a card and slitting her throat and on Genosha he killed a mutant before Magneto knew he was there. This is also a very good showing of stealth:

@k4tzm4n said:

Absolutely true, random person. This display was just to prove that it's a misconception that Bane is slow or careless. He's faster and more agile than many give credit for. Closing the distance and navigating in this environment won't be an issue for him, but odds are Bullseye will tag him. Thankfully, Bane has plenty of pain tolerance feats to prove he won't go down easily and getting tagged while on approach won't deter him.

Closing the distance will be very difficult for Bane to manage without getting tagged. I've already shown that Lester isn't past ricocheting shots if it means hitting the target. Bullseye also has the ranged advantage here and going into a close combat situation is not his preferred MO. Another thing I will point out is that Bullseye also has a habit of using multiple projectiles. So while one might be possible for Bane to dodge if Lester where to unleash a salvo of them this would be very hard for ol Bane to to dodge especially as Bullseye is a much better marksman than Batman and who's projectiles are faster:

In that last scan it also shows that despite Bullseye liking to toy with his prey he does still aim for weak spots like the eyes and if DD hadn't had his club Lester's teeth may well have blinded him.

@k4tzm4n said:

On top of being more skilled and, in my opinion, being able to close the gap, Bane is physically superior to Bullseye -- even more now that he's on venom. While off venom, Bane has ripped off limbs, pulled off a wall to a jail cell and pushed over a rather large statue. On venom, his strength is boosted to roughly the 2 ton range. This also helps him tolerate more pain. Again, if needed, I can provide scans for this section tomorrow as well.

I will not contest the fact that Bane is physically stronger. Lester is only human in his strength and not even in the ton range and in a prolonged h2h fight I would agree but Lester knows that this isn't in his best interest. Of course you might say "If Bane does managed to close in whats to stop him beating Lester and breaking him like a twig?" The answer is his skeleton. Bulleye's bones have been laced with adamantium so his tolerance to blunt force trauma should be high. "Breaking" Bullseye will be a lot harder to do than breaking the Batman:

This means that should Bane close in, Bullseye will not be taken down by a few blows and although he probably isn't as skilled as Bane he does have the skill to take on people like Elektra and Gambit (Gambit even admitted that Lester was better than him):

Although Bullseye did lose that fight with Elektra (not sure why considering Lester managed to drug her and Bullseye has a good win streak on Elektra) it does show that his hand to hand combat is not negligible and he can hang with some good fighters. His skill in conjunction with his reinforced skeleton means Bane would most likely feel his blows. DareDevil was able to recognize that his blows were hard and while DD isn't as durable as Bane for him to comment(see scan) it does say that Lester hits harder than normal.

Due to his speed and agility should this come to a close combat situation Bullseye is perfectly capable of putting some distance between them in order to regain the upper hand. This shows how fast he can react in a confined situation:

Catching Spider-man's spider-tracer is also a good reaction feat as he couldn't have known until the last second it was flying at him (see scan above).

@k4tzm4n said:

This is going to be a close and violent fight that could potentially come down to a coin toss. While Bullseye brings great accuracy to the table, he's also arrogant, less formidable physically and not quite as skilled. Thanks to this environment and Bane being on venom though, I think he has the potential to take it from a stalemate to a trivial majority.

This would indeed be a close fight and I won't try to hide that Lester can be arrogant but also does get his act together as soon as he realizes he's being stupid and goes in for the kill and as I don't see Bane taking Bullseye down in the first round of h2h (due to Bullseye's speed and his re-inforced skeleton) Lester should break away, realize he has to stop jerking around and once he breaks away he will most likely try and stay away from Bane in h2h meaning Bane is going to have to try and chase him down and against some of Bullseye's talents this is easier said than done.

Bane while is physically stronger he isn't as agile as Bullseye and might not be as fast in reaction speed either. These factors in conjunction with Bullseye's unpredictability (ricocheting projectiles, using his own teeth as weapons etc....) will probably allow Bullseye to take Bane off guard. This a close fight and it is going be a 6-5.5/10 situation but I believe it goes to Bullseye for the reasons I just stated.

And if all else fails Bullseye can unleash the paper plane of doom!!!!!

mwhahahahahaha

Your move!

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#21  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
However I do not think he is on par with Bullseye (not that you were claiming he was away).

Agreed, but Nightwing nor Batman were too agile for him to handle in close range, and both characters are disputably more agile than sir Lester.

Now please excuse me while I tell you why context is so damn important :)

Dodging multiple cards thrown by Gambit and getting to the top of a building at the same time as Gambit despite giving him a head-start:

First and foremost, this match began with Gambit already very fatigued. Furthermore, the second immediate factor was it started with Bullseye stabbing Gambit in the chest. Needless to say, he wasn't in the best condition for this match and to top it off, I've always had gripes with this one. I don't understand how he can get wrecked by Lester (in a match where his explosive cards ricochet and don't explode when blocked...) then stalemate Daredevil in hand-to-hand. It's just rather inconsistent in my eyes.

So I don't think you'll argue with me that Bullseye has Bane outclassed in the agility department.

If I thought Bane had superior speed or agility I would have mentioned it in my first post. I didn't ;)

Another good demonstration of speed is kicking Elektra off the top of a building but still arriving at the bottom before she hits the ground. He even comments that she was slow:

This is another fight where there's much more context than what's provided in the panels. Elektra has been held in a facility before this and is in terrible condition. Upon escaping, she bumps into Bullseye -- who proceeds to toss aside his machine gun and toy with her -- further evidence of his arrogance in combat.

Again Bane dodging Batman's projectiles in an impressive display of speed and agility but i'm confident when I say that Bullseye throws his projectiles much harder and faster than Bruce as well as being more accurate:

Indeed. As I stated in my post, it was just showing him dodging projectiles from a confirmed marksman. I never stated Batman is more agile than Bullseye nor did I intent to. Still, there's no disputing Batman's own accuracy and Bane has dodged his projectiles to a handful of times, so it's absolutely worth noting in my eyes.

If you needed anymore convincing about the speed of his projectiles he has been able to tag both Daken and Spider-man. Granted Daken wasn't expecting Bullseye to attack him but given Daken's reaction speeds in the past this is still impressive.

I don't see how tagging Daken while he's sitting in a chair during a meeting is impressive, especially when Daken is purposely manipulating the team and trying to make Lester look like the crazy one. Playing the victim only further supports his goal. Plus, it got him laid ;)

I love the spider tracer feat and shared it immediately when it came out in previews for that issue. It's solid, but like you said, Spidey is tattered and torn. Still, it's nothing I wouldn't expect from Lester.

a tooth-pick from 100 yards a bigger target just makes things easier.

This feat is complete nonsense to me. His non-lethal uses of toothpicks vastly outweigh the one insane feat written by Kevin Smith (the interrogation, Identity Disc, vs Yakuza).

I do agree with this in a certain sense. If the environment was open poor ol Bane would most likely be peppered with projectiles before he knew what was happening.

Indeed. An open environment with ample starting distance would be a match clearly in favor of Lester. Thankfully, that's not the case here ;)

In this environment Bane has cover and won't be forced to run into Bullseye's line of fire. However although it does limit Bullseye's options it does open up another. It is not uncommon for Lester to ricochet his projectiles around in order to his his target:This is something that would most likely catch Bane off guard. He would not expect a knife to fly past him and then come back. It has tricked people in the past so I don't see why this would not be a possibility for Bane too.

It is a possibility. After all, keep in mind I think this is, at best, a stalemate to trivial victory for Bane at best. To say anything else would be vastly under or over estimating either character. However, I hardly see this as a shock to Bane and hopefully my slew of pain tolerance feats support this. I think unless the ricochet shot is going to the head or neck, it's not going to slow him down a significant deal.

Speaking of pain tolerance, I forgot to share his "brick torture" feat (Bane remains conscious after being hit by over 500 bricks). Bullseye generating this amount of damage to Bane seems incredibly unlikely, but I'm sharing it since you said you're doing this primarily to learn about Bane:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture4.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture5.jpg

Regarding his attitude, of course he has examples of immediate kills, but for the most part (and I can say this having read a vast majority of his appearances) Lester is overly arrogant and that's something I always take into account in his battles. Were he always focused on killing, I'd tend to give him at least 2-3 more wins that what I usually offer. But such isn't the case with him. He's toyed with Moon Knight, he's toyed with Elektra numerous times, and hell, he's even toyed with Daredevil on quite a few occasions.

Closing the distance will be very difficult for Bane to manage without getting tagged.

I never stated he would. In fact, I stated it's likely that Bane will be tagged before making it close range. That's precisely why I offered a wealthy amount of Bane's pain tolerance feats, hopefully proving that, unless it's a lethal shot (which isn't common for Lester immediately), Bane can tolerate it and still remain combat effective. Once he makes it in close his superior stats and skill will likely spell game over for Lester.

going into a close combat situation is not his preferred MO.

That's news to me. While he excels at range, the only time I recall him being above close range combat was his fight with Captain America or Spider-Man on the rooftop --- and that's because it's friggin Captain America with a shield blocking all of his attacks, and with Spider-Man, Lester already tagged his target (same logic holds true for Crossbones encounter). Aside from that, he's always had no gripe engaging with the vast majority of his opponents in close range. I see no reason whatsoever for him to avoid close combat with Bane. His history speaks against thinking that.

In that last scan it also shows that despite Bullseye liking to toy with his prey he does still aim for weak spots like the eyes and if DD hadn't had his club Lester's teeth may well have blinded him.

Not relevant to the debate but adding anyway: Bullseye does that because he knows Daredevil can handle it. Bullseye has no intention of ever quickly or easily killing/defeating Daredevil. IIRC, he plainly states in DD 181 that a headshot would be "too quick" or "too easy." I can go fetch the issue to confirm exact dialogue later. This is also why he walks away (or tries to) from DD in the boxing ring and doesn't take advantage after hitting him with a grenade early on. Hell, after the paper airplane he ties him to a giant crossbow and fires him out to sea! Oh, classic era, you're so funny. Again, not relevant to the debate, just adding that bit of info in case you didn't know :)

I will not contest the fact that Bane is physically stronger.

I'd certainly hope not!

Of course you might say "If Bane does managed to close in whats to stop him beating Lester and breaking him like a twig?"

Please shoot me if I ever say that. :P

The answer is his skeleton. Bulleye's bones have been laced with adamantium so his tolerance to blunt force trauma should be high. "Breaking" Bullseye will be a lot harder to do than breaking the Batman:

I'm pleased you brought up the adamantium lacing (which is only confirmed in his spine, skull and fists). It's something that many people tend to overlook. While Bullseye has some pretty solid pain tolerance feats, he doesn't have anything to prove that Bane would have difficulty knocking him out or incapacitating him given the opportunity. Despite the lacing, Daredevil has still been able to drop Lester (countless times, sadly) with nothing more than his fists and feet. At the 2 ton strength range, Bane will have no issue at all harming Lester. The lacing on the fists does indeed mean he hits harder than before, but this hasn't proven to be enough to justify Bane being significantly fazed by them, especially since Daredevil withstood it.

Due to his speed and agility should this come to a close combat situation Bullseye is perfectly capable of putting some distance between them in order to regain the upper hand. This shows how fast he can react in a confined situation:

Again, I'll cite back to Nightwing for this one. That match was written by Chuck Dixon too, the man who wrote Nightwing's earlier run, so it's not like he lacks knowledge on the character. Wait a tick, just realized I didn't provide those scans, so here ya go in case you've never seen 'em. Again, off venom:

Round 1:

Round 2:

This would indeed be a close fight and I won't try to hide that Lester can be arrogant but also does get his act together as soon as he realizes he's being stupid and goes in for the kill

But in this case, it could be far too late for him (similar to the situation with Crossbones, if you will... except Bane has no reason to try to slowly kill Lester). If Bane gets his hands on him (similarly to above), it could spell certain doom for Bullseye. And frankly, that's not a feat I view as impossible. Difficult? Sure and that's why I think this is a solid match, but absolutely possible and hopefully my scans have proved this (his underestimated speed, agility, skill and absurd pain tolerance).

as I don't see Bane taking Bullseye down in the first round of h2h (due to Bullseye's speed and his re-inforced skeleton)

The skeleton might save his brain from a bullet, but the way he's written, it's not like he has Wolverine's durability to blunt force. I've never seen it render him as more difficult to knock out. Daredevil has tragically even one-shotted him.

Lester should break away, realize he has to stop jerking around and once he breaks away he will most likely try and stay away from Bane in h2h meaning Bane is going to have to try and chase him down and against some of Bullseye's talents this is easier said than done.

Certainly possible, but this is all banking on Lester realizing he's acting stupid and at this point, Bane is already directly on him in close range.

To summarize, this is an incredibly close match. Lester's accuracy is sure to tag Bane, but Bane has dozens of feats proving he's more than durable enough and has the pain tolerance required to take a wealthy amount of damage before dropping. This environment combined with his underestimated speed, agility and combat intellect means he'll be able to close the gap (albeit taking some hits) and engage Lester in close range. Here, his superior skill and strength combined with Lester's arrogance will likely be key for victory. Again, I only see this battle as a stalemate to a minor edge (5-6/10). I honestly think saying either combatant takes more than that would showcase a lack of knowledge on both combatants.

And if all else fails Bullseye can unleash the paper plane of doom!!!!!

I have no regrets introducing that feat to the community :P

Oh, and if we're going to really to bring the lulz, BANE BROKE DA BAT, AND DA BAT BROKE BULLSEYE IN DA CROSSOVER.

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#22  Edited By JamesKM716

Great debate so far Gentlemen!

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#23  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n said:

First and foremost, this match began with Gambit already very fatigued. Furthermore, the second immediate factor was it started with Bullseye stabbing Gambit in the chest. Needless to say, he wasn't in the best condition for this match and to top it off, I've always had gripes with this one. I don't understand how he can get wrecked by Lester (in a match where his explosive cards ricochet and don't explode when blocked...) then stalemate Daredevil in hand-to-hand. It's just rather inconsistent in my eyes.

I suppose the card bouncing around is pretty off. However you said it yourself that Gambit was stabbed before the fight so if that is the case how is it so inconceivable that someone who has fought and killed Elektra and fought DareDevil to a stalemate couldn't take on an injured Gambit? I grant you the cards not exploding is off but that is the only real thing I can see wrong with it. We know Lester should be fast enough to dodge them (he dodged Cyclops's blasts pretty easily and i'm pretty sure they are faster than cards) and despite Remy's physical superiority in a fight where he is injured I don't see anything wrong with the fact that Lester could beat him. If Remy was at 100% it would probably be a different story.

@k4tzm4n said:

This is another fight where there's much more context than what's provided in the panels. Elektra has been held in a facility before this and is in terrible condition. Upon escaping, she bumps into Bullseye -- who proceeds to toss aside his machine gun and toy with her -- further evidence of his arrogance in combat.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was getting at. In that post I was trying to Bullseye's speed not whether he should or shouldn't have beat Elektra. What I was saying was that he kicked her off the roof and he then managed to get to the bottom of the building first despite the fact that Elektra was freefalling through the air. I was using it as a speed feat not a combat one to show he can navigate areas very quickly.

@k4tzm4n said:

Indeed. As I stated in my post, it was just showing him dodging projectiles from a confirmed marksman. I never stated Batman is more agile than Bullseye nor did I intent to. Still, there's no disputing Batman's own accuracy and Bane has dodged his projectiles to a handful of times, so it's absolutely worth noting in my eyes.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to detract from Bane's feats I was simply pointing out the difference between when Batman throws something and when Bullseye does.

@k4tzm4n said:

I don't see how tagging Daken while he's sitting in a chair during a meeting is impressive, especially when Daken is purposely manipulating the team and trying to make Lester look like the crazy one. Playing the victim only further supports his goal. Plus, it got him laid ;)

I love the spider tracer feat and shared it immediately when it came out in previews for that issue. It's solid, but like you said, Spidey is tattered and torn. Still, it's nothing I wouldn't expect from Lester.

Although this is true and I said Daken wasn't expecting the attack. We have seen how fast Daken can move so tagging him is a pretty good feat of reflexes. If we take the other scenario that Daken simply decided not to dodge (its impossible to prove either way as he may have just not been expecting the attack and got taken by surprise or he could have just tanked it for tuh lolz) is it really inconceivable that Lester couldn't have made the shot had Daken decided to dodge? We've already seen Lester tag Spider-man (albeit a worn out Spider-man but has a spider-sense and superhuman speed none the less). I personally think its the first scenario but thats a different debate and i'm not even sure why i'm trying to prove it either way as the Spider-man one is better and more comprehensible lol.

@k4tzm4n said:

This feat is complete nonsense to me. His non-lethal uses of toothpicks vastly outweigh the one insane feat written by Kevin Smith (the interrogation, Identity Disc, vs Yakuza).

True but I will point out two things.

1. That feat was an interrogation. Bullseye was not trying to kill the guy just cause him pain. As you see here the goal was to get him to talk not kill him:

Had Lester wanted to kill the guy he could have just put one through the man's eye.

2. I will admit that a toothpick going through glass like that from that distance is questionable however my purpose of bringing it up was not to show he could kill someone with a toothpick from that distance but to show that even with with a projectile that small and a target that far away Bullseye still hit the mark.

If you reread what I wrote I never used it as a feat for his killing ability just his accuracy. Nowhere do I say he should or shouldn't have killed the target ;):

Bane is also quite a big guy. I'm not saying this detracts from his agility what it does do is give Lester a bigger target to aim at and for someone who can hit someone else with a tooth-pick from 100 yards a bigger target just makes things easier.

@k4tzm4n said:

It is a possibility. After all, keep in mind I think this is, at best, a stalemate to trivial victory for Bane at best. To say anything else would be vastly under or over estimating either character. However, I hardly see this as a shock to Bane and hopefully my slew of pain tolerance feats support this. I think unless the ricochet shot is going to the head or neck, it's not going to slow him down a significant deal.

Speaking of pain tolerance, I forgot to share his "brick torture" feat (Bane remains conscious after being hit by over 500 bricks). Bullseye generating this amount of damage to Bane seems incredibly unlikely, but I'm sharing it since you said you're doing this primarily to learn about Bane:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture4.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/torture5.jpg

I have no doubts about Bane's durability to blunt trauma and I wouldn't argue that in a competition of who could beat the other senseless Bane wouldn't wreck him. What I do question how ever is his resistance to penetrative attacks which given the scans you've provided me of JVP doesn't seem very far beyond average.

@k4tzm4n said:

I never stated he would. In fact, I stated it's likely that Bane will be tagged before making it close range. That's precisely why I offered a wealthy amount of Bane's pain tolerance feats, hopefully proving that, unless it's a lethal shot (which isn't common for Lester immediately), Bane can tolerate it and still remain combat effective. Once he makes it in close his superior stats and skill will likely spell game over for Lester.

Ahem!!!!

Closing the distance and navigating in this environment won't be an issue for him

I see what your saying in a way. What I was getting at was that yes normally it would be easy however here Bane is going to be bombarded by projectiles. Maybe i'm just reading it wrong and being pedantic lol.

In a purely h2h confrontation I have no doubt Bane would win but I don't think that Bane making it into close combat will instantly spell the end for Lester. As I previously posted he does have the skill to hang with some experienced fighters and his adamantium spine, skull and hands mean he can take some punishment.

Although Bane is physically superior this is not uncommon ground for Lester and as I said at the end of my last post I believe unpredictability is Bullseye's key to winning. We've seen the sort of things he comes up with on the fly. For example when he fought Crossbones a guy who has superhuman strength and has given Cap trouble in the past:

What was Lester's solution? Push out a false tooth and hit Crossbones in the eye with it thats what lol!

@k4tzm4n said:

That's news to me. While he excels at range, the only time I recall him being above close range combat was his fight with Captain America or Spider-Man on the rooftop --- and that's because it's friggin Captain America with a shield blocking all of his attacks, and with Spider-Man, Lester already tagged his target (same logic holds true for Crossbones encounter). Aside from that, he's always had no gripe engaging with the vast majority of his opponents in close range. I see no reason whatsoever for him to avoid close combat with Bane. His history speaks against thinking that.

I'll admit that was bad wording on my part what I meant was that despite that fact he does fight the enemy in close quarters he tends to use his agility to move in and out of combat to better use his projectile weapons. The fight I posted with those fake Bullseyes is a prime example.

@k4tzm4n said:

Not relevant to the debate but adding anyway: Bullseye does that because he knows Daredevil can handle it. Bullseye has no intention of ever quickly or


easily killing/defeating Daredevil. IIRC, he plainly states in DD 181 that a headshot would be "too quick" or "too easy." I can go fetch the issue to confirm exact dialogue later. This is also why he walks away (or tries to) from DD in the boxing ring and doesn't take advantage after hitting him with a grenade early on. Hell, after the paper airplane he ties him to a giant crossbow and fires him out to sea! Oh, classic era, you're so funny. Again, not relevant to the debate, just adding that bit of info in case you didn't know :)

True but the object of that post was to show that Lester doesn't just throw his projectiles around he does aim for weak spots. As he did with Elektra (her neck) and as he did by spitting his tooth into Crossbone's eye. Just out of interest i'd be interested to see the scan with Bullseye talking about headshotting DD. So post it if you can :)

@k4tzm4n said:

Of course you might say "If Bane does managed to close in whats to stop him beating Lester and breaking him like a twig?"

Please shoot me if I ever say that. :P

preparing now! Just incase:

@k4tzm4n said:

I'm pleased you brought up the adamantium lacing (which is only confirmed in his spine, skull and fists). It's something that many people tend to overlook. While Bullseye has some pretty solid pain tolerance feats, he doesn't have anything to prove that Bane would have difficulty knocking him out or incapacitating him given the opportunity. Despite the lacing, Daredevil has still been able to drop Lester (countless times, sadly) with nothing more than his fists and feet. At the 2 ton strength range, Bane will have no issue at all harming Lester. The lacing on the fists does indeed mean he hits harder than before, but this hasn't proven to be


enough to justify Bane being significantly fazed by them, especially since Daredevil withstood it.

I wasn't trying to say that this would automatically mean he could take what Bane could dish out (which of course) he can't. What I was getting at is that whereas a backslap from ol Bane might break some bones on a normal guy he would have to land a square blow which might be a tad difficult with Lester's agility and knives flying round the place. I was simply trying to show that while a full on blow would not be good for Lester, with his reaction speed, agility and raw speed he might be able to limit Bane to more glancing ones than full on whoppers! Which he could potentially recover from. I'm also not saying that Lester could hurt him very much in hand to hand what I was getting at is that the conjunction of both his skills and slightly enhanced durability may let him dish out a little more than what Bane would be expecting.

@k4tzm4n said:

Again, I'll cite back to Nightwing for this one. That match was written by Chuck Dixon too, the man who wrote Nightwing's earlier run, so it's not like he lacks knowledge on the character. Wait a tick, just realized I didn't provide those scans, so here ya go in case you've never seen 'em. Again, off venom:

These are some good showings from Bane but I can't help but point out a few things. Grayson ran to engage Bane in h2h and he was unarmed. Bullseye does fight in h2h when he has I won't try to deny that but as I said (^up there somewhere^) he prefers close quarter fighting which ofc is not the same as h2h. It tends to involve him using projectiles, running in to try and get a lucky blow, breaking away and using his projectiles then rinse and repeat. Unlike Grayson he won't initially seek to engage Bane in h2h. Another thing is that Grayson does not use penetrative weapons which Bullseye does.

If Bane did manage to get up close and personal there is a good chance that Bullseye would turn those throwing knives into slashing weapons. While he can't beat Bane in h2h he would probably be able to keep him at bay with stabbing attacks. Lester certainly has the reflexes to cut Bane:

(Sorry these two are big. For some reason whenever I made them small they only wanted to appear like half-way up the page)

@k4tzm4n said:

But in this case, it could be far too late for him (similar to the situation with Crossbones, if you will... except Bane has no reason to try to slowly kill Lester). If Bane gets his hands on him (similarly to above), it could spell certain doom for Bullseye. And frankly, that's not a feat I view as impossible. Difficult? Sure and that's why I think this is a solid match, but absolutely possible and hopefully my scans have proved this (his underestimated speed, agility, skill and absurd pain tolerance).

Granted it would not be good for Bullseye if Bane got his large mits on him however as I attempted to cover in the last point Grayson does not use penetrative damage and even with Bane's pain tolerance he couldn't take a wound to certain areas without consequence. If Bane did get hold of Lester, Bullseye would most likely do whatever was necessary to get free (he pulled his own denture thing out to get Crossbones off him) so its not inconceivable that he would try to slash at Bane's neck or other such areas. Bane isn't stupid and wouldn't want to take that kind of damage that means Lester does have a chance to push Bane into the defensive allowing him to get away from Bane's grasp radius.

@k4tzm4n said:

To summarize, this is an incredibly close match. Lester's accuracy is sure to tag Bane, but Bane has dozens of feats proving he's more than durable enough and has the pain tolerance required to take a wealthy amount of damage before dropping. This environment combined with his underestimated speed, agility and combat intellect means he'll be able to close the gap (albeit taking some hits) and engage Lester in close range. Here, his superior skill and strength combined with Lester's arrogance will likely be key for victory.

As I said in the other few posts Bane's agility is good and his h2h is very good I have a feeling however that despite these things Lester's use of penetrative weapons could be Bane's downfall. Not to mention his unpredictably and adaptability which imo is what swings it towards Lester.

@k4tzm4n said:

Again, I only see this battle as a stalemate to a minor edge (5-6/10). I honestly think saying either combatant takes more than that would showcase a lack of knowledge on both combatants.

I can't disagree with this it would be a very close and bloodly match.

And you still have no counter for the paper plane of doom!

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#24  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
I suppose the card bouncing around is pretty off. However you said it yourself that Gambit was stabbed before the fight so if that is the case how is it so inconceivable that someone who has fought and killed Elektra and fought DareDevil to a stalemate couldn't take on an injured Gambit? I grant you the cards not exploding is off but that is the only real thing I can see wrong with it. We know Lester should be fast enough to dodge them (he dodged Cyclops's blasts pretty easily and i'm pretty sure they are faster than cards) and despite Remy's physical superiority in a fight where he is injured I don't see anything wrong with the fact that Lester could beat him. If Remy was at 100% it would probably be a different story.

The point was talking about how the powers were written in that fight, not necessarily a focus on A-B-C logic. It's convenient for Bullseye, because otherwise those cards would have made short work of him. But to go into that: why would Gambit admit Lester's better then hold his own so well against Daredevil? Seems quite contradictory, wouldn't you agree? Bullseye certainly is "better" than Gambit, but like you said, at 100%, Remy's going to take that fight.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was getting at. In that post I was trying to Bullseye's speed not whether he should or shouldn't have beat Elektra. What I was saying was that he kicked her off the roof and he then managed to get to the bottom of the building first despite the fact that Elektra was freefalling through the air. I was using it as a speed feat not a combat one to show he can navigate areas very quickly.

I didn't miss the point, I was merely providing much required context for the fight itself because you cited Lester calling Eletkra "slow." There was a key reason for that: she was already exhausted.

Although this is true and I said Daken wasn't expecting the attack. We have seen how fast Daken can move so tagging him is a pretty good feat of reflexes. If we take the other scenario that Daken simply decided not to dodge (its impossible to prove either way as he may have just not been expecting the attack and got taken by surprise or he could have just tanked it for tuh lolz) is it really inconceivable that Lester couldn't have made the shot had Daken decided to dodge? We've already seen Lester tag Spider-man (albeit a worn out Spider-man but has a spider-sense and superhuman speed none the less). I personally think its the first scenario but thats a different debate and i'm not even sure why i'm trying to prove it either way as the Spider-man one is better and more comprehensible lol.

The point wasn't to say that "Bullseye can't tag Daken," (he's obviously capable of doing so) it was to point out that the example you used really doesn't benefit Bullseye in this case. It would be like me posting the scan of Bane one-shotting Bruce Wayne with a sucker punch and then trying to apply it here. We know Bane has the strength to do that and it's obvious, but that specific example is laced with factors and doesn't mean it translates here. Batman wasn't combat ready, so me citing that is pointless in my eyes and only repeating the obvious, but using a bad example to justify it. Context is always key, and Bullseye tagging Daken while they were in a meeting isn't a feat that I'd ever think of even citing to support Lester's reflexes/accuracy, especially because it's laced with a gazillion factors surrounding Daken's plot.

Also if anything, Lester's history with Daken doesn't help your case, because he was foolish enough to attempt to go toe-to-toe with Daken. As expected, he needed to be saved from that encounter.

What I do question how ever is his resistance to penetrative attacks which given the scans you've provided me of JVP doesn't seem very far beyond average.

Strongly disagree. The guy took batarangs to the wrist and kept fighting. He took a batarang to the thigh and kept jumping around. He's been stabbed through the hand and then used said impaled weapon as a weapon. He's been shot in the shoulder then used that same arm to break another man's wrist. Bane's pain tolerance is insane for street levelers. The attacks hurt him, but they don't hinder him.

Let me blow those images up here as a reminder instead of placing them in links ;)

Wrist guards are for chumps:

Projectile in the thigh? No worries, can still fight just fine.

Stab me in the hand, Bullseye. I dare you.

Want to use the already impaled dagger and drag/thrust it into Bane's thigh even further, then slash him across the chest? You'll just get a pimp smack to the face and he'll be perfectly fine.

Shot in the shoulder? No biggy, still uses that SAME ARM to snap a man's wrist.

I see what your saying in a way. What I was getting at was that yes normally it would be easy however here Bane is going to be bombarded by projectiles.

Indeed he will be. But the environment provides him with a more than ample cover for approach options that he can easily navigate with single leaps and even if he does get hit (perfectly likely), he has a wealthy history proving he can take it just fine.

In a purely h2h confrontation I have no doubt Bane would win but I don't think that Bane making it into close combat will instantly spell the end for Lester.

It wouldn't instantly spell the end, but it puts the odds highly in Bane's favor. Bane's stronger, bigger, more skilled and has the physicals in regards to speed/agility to keep pace.

Although Bane is physically superior this is not uncommon ground for Lester and as I said at the end of my last post I believe unpredictability is Bullseye's key to winning. We've seen the sort of things he comes up with on the fly. For example when he fought Crossbones a guy who has superhuman strength and has given Cap trouble in the past:
  1. Crossbones is peak human. He doesn't have superhuman strength.
  2. Dialogue is key. Note when Brock has his hands around Bullseye's throat he says he could kill him in a second, but chooses not to because he wants him to suffer. Crossbones is under the impression Bullseye just killed his boss (was actually a robot) and wants revenge. Bane has no such motivate or reason to prolong Bullseye's suffering. He'll go for defeating Bullseye, not making him suffer.
  3. Bullseye's ability to use weapons in close range is indeed a factor and that's precisely why this match is so close. However, I feel Bane's superior stats, skill and crazy pain tolerance are key.
I'll admit that was bad wording on my part what I meant was that despite that fact he does fight the enemy in close quarters he tends to use his agility to move in and out of combat to better use his projectile weapons. The fight I posted with those fake Bullseyes is a prime example.

The fight with fodder dressed as Bullseye isn't exactly translatable because he's vastly outnumbered. When it comes to 1v1s, he only tends to resort to those tactics if other factors apply (his target is already killed *vs Spider-Man*, or a character he knows he probably can't beat *Captain America*). This doesn't hold true for Bane, seeing as it's a random encounter and he knows nothing of him. Is it possible? Sure, but likely to happen for a majority? History isn't on his side for that one.

True but the object of that post was to show that Lester doesn't just throw his projectiles around he does aim for weak spots. As he did with Elektra (her neck) and as he did by spitting his tooth into Crossbone's eye. Just out of interest i'd be interested to see the scan with Bullseye talking about headshotting DD. So post it if you can :)

Sure, I can do that later today.

LOL.

land a square blow which might be a tad difficult with Lester's agility and knives flying round the place.

I hate using ABC logic, but sadly since this is a crossover, it must be done. If Bane can hang with the likes of more skilled characters in close range (Nightwing, JPV, Batman), he should have no problem landing clean hits on Bullseye. Lester certainly has better reflex feats than that list, but he is not more skilled when it comes to close range combat.

These are some good showings from Bane but I can't help but point out a few things. Grayson ran to engage Bane in h2h and he was unarmed.

Yup, but I've proven that Bane's pain tolerance can easily compensate for weapon damage, especially because he's on venom. Besides, the point of vs Nightwing is to prove that he had no issue dismantling a character equally if not more agile than Bullseye in close range. As for the icing on the cake, Nightwing is disputably more skilled in close combat than Lester, yet Bane was able to (seemingly effortlessly) counter his strikes. Once he gets in close, Bullseye's agility won't save him for a majority.

If Bane did manage to get up close and personal there is a good chance that Bullseye would turn those throwing knives into slashing weapons. While he can't beat Bane in h2h he would probably be able to keep him at bay with stabbing attacks. Lester certainly has the reflexes to cut Bane:

And provided are examples of Bane withstanding both slashing and stabbing attacks. Even after them, he was still combat effective and his mobility was not hindered. Also, on the previous page I provided scans of Bane dodging sword slashes from Ubu and he has also dodged JPV's flaming gauntlet sword.

As I said in the other few posts Bane's agility is good and his h2h is very good I have a feeling however that despite these things Lester's use of penetrative weapons could be Bane's downfall. Not to mention his unpredictably and adaptability which imo is what swings it towards Lester.

Could be his downfall, and I absolutely agree. Those are the advantages Lester brings to the table and once again, it's a close match because of this.

However, Bane advantages, in my eyes, allow him to at the very least, warrant a stalemate or trivial majority:

  • More skilled and effective at close range combat.
  • Physically superior, even more-so now thanks to being on venom.
  • Has a more than competent degree of agility and speed to keep pace and easily navigate the environment.
  • Has an environment packed with cover.
  • Has an absurd amount of pain tolerance, proving over the years he'll be able to take stabbing/slashing attacks and still remain combat effective.
  • Bane isn't one that often toys around. Bullseye's arrogance, unfortunately for him, is often a factor.
And you still have no counter for the paper plane of doom!

Punisher beat up Bullseye in that same comic.

GAME. SET. MATCH. :P

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#25  Edited By nickzambuto

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

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#26  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or a balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

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#27  Edited By laflux

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

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#28  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Yup.

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#29  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky @god_spawn will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Redfield would stomp Bane.
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#30  Edited By laflux

@k4tzm4n said:

@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Yup.

Oh- Nick would have to have some crazy debating skills to pull that one off.

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JamesKM716

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#31  Edited By JamesKM716

@k4tzm4n: I for one am glad you accepted this, as it is great entertainment.

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#32  Edited By laflux

@Vance Astro said:

@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky @god_spawn will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Redfield would stomp Bane.

how so ?

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#33  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@JamesKM716: Thanks. Truth be told I only accepted because:

  • Bullseye vs Bane is a legitimately awesome and balanced match under these conditions.
  • Strider wanted to learn about Bane. Seeing as Strider's super nice, I'm more than happy to help out :D
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#34  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@laflux said:

how so ?

his power is maximum.
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#35  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@laflux: @Vance Astro said:

@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky @god_spawn will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Redfield would stomp Bane.

You're still dead to me and dead wrong.

Anyway, please take the conversation about that fight to the link below. I don't want things to get too cluttered here until Strider and I agree the debate is over. Thanks.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/chris-redfield-vs-bane/687324/

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#36  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Vance Astro said:

@laflux said:

how so ?

his power is maximum.

LMAO!

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#37  Edited By JamesKM716

@k4tzm4n:

  • In all honesty, i think Bullseye would win. Once he takes the fight seriously he should be able to put something in Bane's skull.
  • Also, Hey I'm nice! When i get curious about someone, i'll ask you about them.
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#38  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@JamesKM716 said:

No Caption Provided

@k4tzm4n:

  • In all honesty, i think Bullseye would win. Once he takes the fight seriously he should be able to put something in Bane's skull.

HEY! No outside opinions until we're done :P

LOL that's awesome! If that had "k4tz" at the bottom I think I'd use it as my wallpaper.

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#39  Edited By JamesKM716

@k4tzm4n: Oh fine :p I'll wait. And ask you later.

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#40  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92:

Just out of interest i'd be interested to see the scan with Bullseye talking about headshotting DD. So post it if you can :)
"Sure, I can do that later today."

Follow-up for ya:

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#41  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@JamesKM716 said:

@k4tzm4n: Oh fine :p I'll wait. And ask you later.

That was just in regards to you saying Bullseye wins (STOP GANGING UP ON ME BEFORE I CALL THE WAHHHMBULANCE!) You're always welcome to ask about characters. If I feel I'm qualified, I'll do what I can.

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#42  Edited By JamesKM716

@k4tzm4n: I think i might just go do that... haha

No Caption Provided

Like this?

@k4tzm4n said:

@JamesKM716 said:

@k4tzm4n: Oh fine :p I'll wait. And ask you later.

That was just in regards to you saying Bullseye wins (STOP GANGING UP ON ME BEFORE I CALL THE WAHHHMBULANCE!) You're always welcome to ask about characters. If I feel I'm qualified, I'll do what I can.

Oh i know that was just in regards to the fight.

And cool, maybe i'll actually ask you about that sometime.

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#43  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n said:

Strongly disagree. The guy took batarangs to the wrist and kept fighting. He took a batarang to the thigh and kept jumping around. He's been stabbed through the hand and then used said impaled weapon as a weapon. He's been shot in the shoulder then used that same arm to break another man's wrist. Bane's pain tolerance is insane for street levelers. The attacks hurt him, but they don't hinder him.

Let me blow those images up here as a reminder instead of placing them in links ;)

Again this is probably me wording myself wrong. What I was trying to say was that although is extremely resistant pain his durability to stabbing damage seems normal (IE: knives cut him and don't bounce of his skin). So That if Bane did get Lester into a h2h situation he is still as vulnerable as anyone in areas like the throat, eyes etc.... and Bullseye does tend to aim for vulnerable areas. Granted he never normally tries to outright kill but if Bane puts him in that position in close quarters I doubt Bullseye would hesitate to aim for the more damaging areas. Those scans do show his resilience to pain but he doesn't take any deep hits to the chest. They all seem to be on the arms, legs and other non-fatal areas. I'm pretty sure a stab to chest would effect him as much as it would a normal person (granted he may not show it but a possible stab to the liver or lungs would be bad) so it would be in his interest to avoid that kind of damage.

@k4tzm4n said:

I didn't miss the point, I was merely providing much required context for the fight itself because you cited Lester calling Eletkra "slow." There was a key reason for that: she was already exhausted.

That was my fault. I shouldn't have quoted that as it wasn't the feat I was aiming for.

@k4tzm4n said:

It wouldn't instantly spell the end, but it puts the odds highly in Bane's favor. Bane's stronger, bigger, more skilled and has the physicals in regards to speed/agility to keep pace.

Due to Bullseye's fighting style i'm doubtful this would come to a grappling scenario (it could but I have my doubts) and as you said while Bane does have the speed and agility to keep pace he is slightly behind Lester in agility and given the two reactions feats I provided in my last post Bullseye seems to have a good lead there as well.

@k4tzm4n said:

Yup, but I've proven that Bane's pain tolerance can easily compensate for weapon damage, especially because he's on venom. Besides, the point of vs Nightwing is to prove that he had no issue dismantling a character equally if not more agile than Bullseye in close range. As for the icing on the cake, Nightwing is disputably more skilled in close combat than Lester, yet Bane was able to (seemingly effortlessly) counter his strikes. Once he gets in close, Bullseye's agility won't save him for a majority.

This is basically the what I said in the first post. Although Bane's tolerance to pain is high his actual durability to stabbing attacks is normal so a stab to the lung region, chest, neck, etc..... wouldn't be something Bane would want to take and although he is far more skilled than Lester in h2h it is always harder to fight someone who's armed when you're unarmed and its not like Lester knows nothing about using knives. This is the reason I don't see it going the same way as the fight with Grayson as Bane would have to be defensive about how he approaches Bullseye. Bullseye's agility may not save him on its own but in conjunction with those blades its enough to keep Bane on his toes.

@k4tzm4n said:

  1. Crossbones is peak human. He doesn't have superhuman strength.
  2. Dialogue is key. Note when Brock has his hands around Bullseye's throat he says he could kill him in a second, but chooses not to because he wants him to suffer. Crossbones is under the impression Bullseye just killed his boss (was actually a robot) and wants revenge. Bane has no such motivate or reason to prolong Bullseye's suffering. He'll go for defeating Bullseye, not making him suffer.
  3. Bullseye's ability to use weapons in close range is indeed a factor and that's precisely why this match is so close. However, I feel Bane's superior stats, skill and crazy pain tolerance are key.

Really? Has Crossbone's ever been superhuman? I was sure he was higher than peak. I don't doubt that, that scenario wouldn't end well for Bullseye if Cross hadn't wanted to make him hurt. However how often has Bane outright killed someone of Bullseye's talents? I even remember seeing a scan of Bane talking to his enemy before he killed him (which he did by tearing the guys arms off and clubbing him with them lol). Bullseye hasn't made Bane angry (yet) so its highly unlikely Bane would just kill him. From what I can make out he seems to like to beat his opponents up pretty bad. Anyway that scan was mainly to highlight Lester's ability to think on his feet.

@k4tzm4n said:

However, Bane advantages, in my eyes, allow him to at the very least, warrant a stalemate or trivial majority:

  • More skilled and effective at close range combat.
  • Physically superior, even more-so now thanks to being on venom.
  • Has a more than competent degree of agility and speed to keep pace and easily navigate the environment.
  • Has an environment packed with cover.
  • Has an absurd amount of pain tolerance, proving over the years he'll be able to take stabbing/slashing attacks and still remain combat effective.
  • Bane isn't one that often toys around. Bullseye's arrogance, unfortunately for him, is often a factor.

Can't argue with them. The advantages to Bullseye in my eyes seem to be:

  • Initial fight advantage (might not seem like much but some times the initial advantage can shift the scales which Lester has due to the starting at a range)
  • Unpredictability (trickshots, adaptability etc..)
  • Reaction speed
  • Agility
  • Has penetrative weapons in h2h

If you want to keep going we can but I get the feeling that we might just be repeating ourselves from here on out.

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#44  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92: I'm out doing errands for a bit and then I've gotta write Rants & Raves. After that, I'll check this out.

Not sure if you saw but I made a scan of the DD/headshot remark on the other page too!

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#45  Edited By nickzambuto

@laflux said:

@Vance Astro said:

@laflux said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@nickzambuto said:

I'm officially pissed at k4t for accepting this.

Your offer (Chris vs Bane) wasn't an interesting or balanced match in my eyes. Bullseye vs Bane is. Anyway, maybe if you're lucky @god_spawn will show you why Bane wins that match ;)

as in Chris Renfield ?

Redfield would stomp Bane.

how so ?

Stronger, faster, far more acrobatic, better reaction time, superior endurance, maybe even superior skill, vastly superior gear, you get the point ;)

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#46  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92:

Again this is probably me wording myself wrong. What I was trying to say was that although is extremely resistant pain his durability to stabbing damage seems normal (IE: knives cut him and don't bounce of his skin). So That if Bane did get Lester into a h2h situation he is still as vulnerable as anyone in areas like the throat, eyes etc.... and Bullseye does tend to aim for vulnerable areas. Granted he never normally tries to outright kill but if Bane puts him in that position in close quarters I doubt Bullseye would hesitate to aim for the more damaging areas. Those scans do show his resilience to pain but he doesn't take any deep hits to the chest. They all seem to be on the arms, legs and other non-fatal areas. I'm pretty sure a stab to chest would effect him as much as it would a normal person (granted he may not show it but a possible stab to the liver or lungs would be bad) so it would be in his interest to avoid that kind of damage.

No worries. Sure, Bane doesn't have superhuman durability or anything. He's not bullet proof, but what sets him apart is his pain tolerance. We've seen him withstand damage time and time again that would make a vast majority of street levelers lose focus. Being on venom also increases his muscle mass, so that also makes penetrating wounds in most areas less damaging than usual.

Due to Bullseye's fighting style i'm doubtful this would come to a grappling scenario (it could but I have my doubts)

It's not Nightwing's fighting style either but you saw what happened ;)

He has superior skill and capable reflexes, so countering in close combat isn't an issue for him.

Really? Has Crossbone's ever been superhuman? I was sure he was higher than peak.

Nope, however he did briefly have heat vision in THUNDERBOLTS.

However how often has Bane outright killed someone of Bullseye's talents?

One doesn't need to kill to end a fight quickly. Knock outs or destroying limbs will suffice just fine ;)

If you want to keep going we can but I get the feeling that we might just be repeating ourselves from here on out.

I'm okay with either option. I know this was really just to help you learn about Bane, so hopefully I provided an ample amount of information for you and you can now effectively talk about him in battles :D

For those too lazy to read, here are what we view as the key advantages:

Bane:

  • More skilled and effective at close range combat.
  • Physically superior, even more-so now thanks to being on venom.
  • Has a more than competent degree of agility and speed to keep pace and easily navigate the environment.
  • Has an environment packed with cover.
  • Has an absurd amount of pain tolerance, proving over the years he'll be able to take stabbing/slashing attacks and still remain combat effective.
  • Bane isn't one that often toys around. Bullseye's arrogance, unfortunately for him, is often a factor.

Bullseye:

  • Initial fight advantage (might not seem like much but some times the initial advantage can shift the scales which Lester has due to the starting at a range)
  • Unpredictability (trickshots, adaptability etc..)
  • Reaction speed
  • Agility
  • Has penetrative weapons in h2h

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#47  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@JamesKM716 said:

@k4tzm4n: I think i might just go do that... haha

No Caption Provided

Like this?

@k4tzm4n said:

@JamesKM716 said:

@k4tzm4n: Oh fine :p I'll wait. And ask you later.

That was just in regards to you saying Bullseye wins (STOP GANGING UP ON ME BEFORE I CALL THE WAHHHMBULANCE!) You're always welcome to ask about characters. If I feel I'm qualified, I'll do what I can.

Oh i know that was just in regards to the fight.

And cool, maybe i'll actually ask you about that sometime.

Hah, awesome!

Sure, feel free.

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#48  Edited By Strider1992

@k4tzm4n said:

I'm okay with either option. I know this was really just to help you learn about Bane, so hopefully I provided an ample amount of information for you and you can now effectively talk about him in battles :D

That you did. I came out of here finally knowing sometime about him! Thanks for educating me and thanks for the debate. I had to think quite a lot in this one!

And yeah I saw the scan with DD. A part of me almost wishes villains didn't job.....but then again we'd have a lot less heroes if they didn't.

Let the voting begin!!!!! Can't be bothered to call people. If nothing happens in 24hours i'll motivate myself to call people.

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#49  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Strider92:

That you did. I came out of here finally knowing sometime about him! Thanks for educating me and thanks for the debate. I had to think quite a lot in this one!

Very happy to hear it and pleased I could help. This was fun, I haven't had a lengthy debate in quite some time. Thanks :D

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#50  Edited By JamesKM716

@k4tzm4n: @Strider92: *undisclosed