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#1 Edited by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

Good day ladies and gentlemen! Tonight you're in for a show, in one corner, the Super Soviet, the animal of Gotham...KGBeast! In the other corner we have the Savage Leader, the day of the dead fanatic, Crossbones!

KGBeast -@jwalser3

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Crossbones - @comicstooge

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Fight will take place in a random New York street will no bystanders.

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  • No prep
  • No prior knowledge
  • Morals on
  • Starting distance: 20 feet away
  • Win by death
  • KGBeast: Standard gear
  • Crossbones: Standard costume, assorted knives, assault rifle, twin SMGs, a pistol and a collapsible crossbow

Challenge A Viner Rules:

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best debater win.

@comicstooge Everything check out?

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#2 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: I love the OP! :)

Would you mind starting? I'm about to go to bed?

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#3 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Adequate music for reading/debating:

Loading Video...

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#4 Posted by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

The KGBeast

So, Crossbones plans on fighting the might KGBeast uh? Well lets look at what this lil hulk can do.

Who is the KGBeast?

Trained by Hammer, a secret KGB group the KGBeast is a master of over several different fighting styles has enhanced strength. He is also a master of every single weapon on the planet. So not only does he have his cybernetic arm, he can also use weapons he may get from Crossbones if he drops or loses one.

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You can tell because of how he awkwardly holds that pistol
You can tell because of how he awkwardly holds that pistol

Skills

Skill wise, the Beast is up there. Facing people like Batman, Robin, and Huntress. Both of our combatants have several different martial arts mastered, so this is going to be tough. We have to use feats!

Vs. Batman 1

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During his first encounter with the Bat, Beast completely shocked Bruce. Saying how skilled and fast he was, fighting like an animal. He then was able to evade Batman and continue with his mission.

He was also able to defeat Huntress.

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While it is off panel it should count for something I believe.

This is just to give you a idea of the skill KGBeast has.

Fire Power

As I said before, KGBeast could possibly disarm Crossbones and use his own weapons against him. But the beast is packing a good amount of fire power.

His arm is a pocket knife basically. It contains the following

  • Machine Gun
  • Blade
  • Tear Gas
  • Explosive Rounds
  • Possibly a flame thrower(I might have the scan somewhere)

Any way, on with the feats!

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Explosive round capable of blasting through a wall

Tear Gas

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The rest like his machine gun and blade should be explanatory. So not only does he have the chance of picking up a weapon from Crossbones, he has his own on arm army.

He's a beast for a reason!

KGBeast's durability will give him quite the edge in this fight. Thanks to his cybernetics he has enhanced durability. I know Crossbones has punched Cap and such but I dare say KGBeast's durability is higher.

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Falls from a multi-story building and lands on a car, crushing it. Walks away fine.

Crossbones is going to have to work rather hard to put KGBeast in the ground. He can tank gunfire pretty easily as well.

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Tanks a shot gun blasts

So his gunfire, while it will effect him, it won't take him out of the game for good.

In the end

In the end KGBeast has these over Crossbones

  • Weapons
  • Durability

I will say they are both on the same skill level and I will comment on speed when I see some speed feats for Crossbones.

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#6 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (23437 posts) - - Show Bio

The soviet jobber vs Bucky's punching bag? SWEET! Tag me 4 votes guys

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#7 Posted by NighThunder (7725 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me aswell

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#8 Posted by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1:

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Who is Crossbones?

Crossbones was originally a street thug who joined Taskmaster's school for Super Villains, before being hand picked by Red Skull himself:

He excelled so much, he was quickly made an instructor:

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From there, he was chosen by Red Skull:

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And trained by the finest combatants in all of Europe:

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Proficiency with Gear:

Crossbones mightn't be a master with every weapon known to man, but he's good with what he's got:

His accuracy with a crossbow is he good, he could match Cap's shield to it's target. It's also worth noting Cap's shield travels faster than bullets when necessary, yet Rumlow's arrow kept pace with it:

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He's proficient in the use of throwing knives in combat:

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For the record, Rumlow's costume has a hidden blade:

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And he keeps a gas bolt on him, so he's not the only one who can blow smoke:

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And he's got a knife capable of cutting through Spiderman's bulletproof webbing (Well, it was one of the Iron Spiders, but still, it'd be the same formula):

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I'll highlight some showings of accuracy later, but for now, this is what he can do.

Skill:

While KGBeast stalemating Bruce and stomping Huntress are impressive impressive, Rumlow has similar instances under his belt:

Here, he stalemates Cap, showing off some pretty impressive skills in the process:

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He also once slaughtered and killed the skilled villain, Cutthroat, who was another member of Taskmaster's school and very skilled in the use of blades (he's capable of giving Nightcrawler and to a lesser degree, Spiderman a good fight):

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Owns Sin in a page:

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Speed:

You wanted some speed feats? Here ya go:

Prior to his training with Red Skull, he dodged an arrow after it has been fired at pointblank range, and then avoided an ambush from some...giant blob monster thing:

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Casually catches an axe while taking a drink:

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Easily catches a throwing knife:

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Avoided Cap's shield throw:

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Here, he picks up his gun and shoots Wolverine with it (he wanted to be hit), but he does so faster than Daredevil can stop him:

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So, while I'm sure KGBeast is fast himself, I'm gonna wager a guess and say 'Bones has the edge in speed.

Alright, so far...

- Skill between the two seems relatively even, but Bones has a knife that can cut bulletproof material, which will aid him greatly in CQC

- His wide array of gear can match Beast's and he's got the necessary gear to hurt him (repeated gunshot wounds will bring him down)

- He's slightly faster

In my next post, I'll highlight Rumlow's accuracy, agility and pain tolerance, along with any of your points I need to counter.

@jwalser3 alright man, your turn.

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#10 Edited by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Alright alright this is getting good.

My Skill

In terms of h2h I say they seem about equal. Just that KGBeast always has his blade/gun always ready. So he can always pop off shots in h2h. But in actual skill...this might seem like an odd tactic but...NVKDemon.

KGBeast is so skilled he was able to have a prodigy and train him so well that he was able to beat Batman the first time they fought.

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This might seem odd, but it shows that KGBeast is such a skilled fighter that he can actually teach others and have them become just as skilled.

The Tortoise and the Hair

Crossbones is fast, faster then I thought. How ever will KGBeast handle him. Well believe it or not but KGBeast is able to tag and grab very agile characters. such as...

Bltizs a man before he can fire his gun
Bltizs a man before he can fire his gun

Vs. King Snake

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He's been able to hang with the likes of King Snake

Vs. Arsenal

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And has been able to catch people as agile as Arsenal.

So Crossbones speed, while helpful, doesn't make him out of Beast's grasp

Our clocks

Crossbones is no doubtfully good with weapons. But let me show you how well KGB is with what he has.

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He's been able to tag Batman with a throwing knife.

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This is just showing off his range/melee combo. This can come in handle if Corssbone evades a slash or stab.

Your gear, my gear

I wouldn't say he has a wide array. It's just a lot of guns. Guns that he'll have to switch out to use. This can give KGB the edge when he tries reloading or switching to a new weapon. Unlike the Beast, all his weapons are ready to go. So just keep that in mind. And for your gas bolt, the only thing that is different is that it's just smoke, I think Cap jerked back because of the explosion of the bolt. My gas will cause Crossbones to panic and quickly escape the cloud of tear gas.

ecessary gear to hurt him (repeated gunshot wounds will bring him down)

I never said he wouldn't be brought down. Just that he can soak up a little gunfire thanks to cybernetics.

In the end

I still believe KGBeast has

  • Durability
  • Weapons
  • Strength

Over Crossbones. While Crossbones is more agile, KGBeast has caught faster opponents.

KGBeast should be able to handle Crossbones from a good range and when it comes down to h2h, Crossbones just wont make it out alive.

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#11 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2:

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Your skill:

For the record, it wasn't just his skill that allowed NKVDemon to beat Batman, he mentioned Beast pumped him full of drugs (enhancements that KGBeast doesn't seem to have), so while his skill is obviously pretty great, he's not quite at Batman's level.

NKVDemon highlights his enhancements here:

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Rumlow's Skill:

There are a couple more skill feats I wanna law down for Rumlow, before you right him off completely:

He holds his own against a group of young, superhuman heroes from the Initiative and escapes:

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Gave Deadpool a good fight. Their battle was interrupted multiple times before Deadpool delivered a nerve strike to the throat and followed it up with a brutal combo:

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The difference in skill between the two in negligible.

Strength:

I'm not sure how strong KGBeast is...

...but Rumlow can effortlessly snap the neck of a superhuman werewolf creature:

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And in terms of striking power, he can send Red Skull, in his cloned body of Captain America (so he weighed about 240 pounds), flying into a wall with a single punch (while Brock was exhausted):

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Speed:

Brock's got a few more speed feats himself...

He's fast enough to cut Venom, before Thompson could move away:

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He even has the speed to roll out of the way of an attack from Venom later:

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Dodges a lightning bolt:

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While it won't make him untouchable to KGBeast, his speed will at least have an impact on the outcome of the battle.

Pain Tolerance:

Another impressive thing about Brock is his pain tolerance, which I'll highlight now:

He doesn't even react to an arrow in his side:

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Gets gutted by Wolverine and keeps on trucking, before he gets impaled again. It's worth noting he survived the fatal wound long enough for Wolverine to get blasted away by his back up, so he could be healed with a little magic.

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In terms of blunt force trauma, he fructured his skull against Bucky and still took a few punches to his already fractured skull afterwards:

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While he won't be shrugging off explosive rounds or surviving head-shots anytime soon, his crazy pain tolerance means he'll be able to take quite a bit of damage and keep going.

Gunslinging/Accuracy:

KGBeast might be more durable and have that fancy arm of him, but I'd argue that Rumlow has better accuracy when it comes to guns and he's also smarter in a gun fight.

For example, this is his fight in the Raft, against the guards he displays impressive skills with a pistol as he grabs the pistol and headshots the guard in mid air (along with endurance, as he got tazered and kicked around):

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He demonstrates insane accuracy, by tagging a bulletproof woman right in the ear with a tranquilizer, while she was in mid-jump:

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Dodges an uzi blast and mixes firing his crossbow along with a knife:

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He's also not afraid to find cover (he does after avoiding gunfire from Bullseye):

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He also shows his creativity, utilizing a table to protect himself from Bullseye's weapons:

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Uses his crossbow in combat:

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And KGBeast is the only one who uses guns in CQC:

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Overall...

- Brock is faster, which is sure to have an impact

- Brock has better accuracy when it comes to guns

- The skill gap between the two in negligible

- Strength between the two is debatable

- Crossbones impressive pain tolerance will allow him to hang in there if KGBeast gets a bullet in a non-vital area or a slash wound or two. He'll also be difficult to put down via blunt force trauma

- Crossbones is smarter (he's more likely to find cover, attack from a distance, get creative with his offense) while KGBeast's offense is far more straightforward and limited

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#12 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 alright man, the gauntlet has been laid down!

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#13 Edited by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: I am aware of the steroids. But I was simply saying that KGBeast was able to train someone so well that they could go h2h with Batman. KGBeast doesn't need the steroids because of is cybernetics.

I guess a little bit more skill feats

Vs. Robin & Huntress

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Fight is ended when he falls from a multistory building and walks away fine

I don't feel like nickel and diming this anymore. KGBeast and Crossbones share the same level of skill. :P

The Strength of a Soviet

Crossbones seems strong, I don't know about the werewolf feat. They all looked really thin to me. But KGBeast is pretty strong as well.

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  1. Sends a Venom Junkie flying with one kick
  2. Lifts up 500 lbs with ease
  3. Breaks a large stone block pre cybernetics

So he's not really weak.

Speed

KGBeast doesn't have many speed feats. While Crossbones is very fast he is also large. If the Beast can catch the likes of Arsenal, Robin, and King Snake he should be able to catch this large skullface. I mean he's been able to block Robin's attacks and disarm him.

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I'd give a slight edge to Crossbones, but not by a lot.

I am the tougherness!

Crossbones seems like a Terminator. I'm impressed by his pain tolerance. But in the end, he doesn't have enhanced durability. While we both no a shotgun blast won't bring down or hurt KGBeast can we say the same for Crossbones? I mean I already posted two sets of scans

  • Falling from a multistory building
  • Tanking shot gun blasts

There are more.

Steel beam slams right into his chest

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And...

Completely destroying a venom junkie. Showing that he can tank enhanced human punches and that his hits actually hurt some one on venom.

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So lets see:

  • Able to free fall onto a car
  • Tank gunshots easily
  • Have a steel beam swing into your chest
  • Punch and tank a venom induced foe

I give pain tolerance and durability to KGBeast

KGBeast might be more durable and have that fancy arm of him, but I'd argue that Rumlow has better accuracy when it comes to guns and he's also smarter in a gun fight.

The fancy gun arm will play a big roll. Always having all of his weapons ready and not worrying about changing out will help greatly. Plus he is packing the most fire power

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Capable of splitting a truck in half

Hit the target

Alright while the Beast doesn't have that many accuracy feats he as still been able to tag Batman on two separate occasions.

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It's not much. Edge to Crossbones

My final post

This was really fun! I'm pretty much finished with this CaV and want to start voting. But before we do I'll recap as to why I believe KGBeast will emerge the winner....

KGBeastCrossbones
StrengthSpeed
Durability Accuracy
Versatility

I feel that both our boys are equal in skill. I'd say Crossbones is more agile but again, KGBeast has still kept up with fast fighters. But what it will really come down to is stats. KGBeast is just a monster with his cybernetics. Yes bullets will bring him down, but not right off the bat, he can handle a feel shells here and there. I think we both know who's walking away.

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But it's time for the voters to decide! Thanks for the really fun debate.

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#15 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

The Final Round:

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Strength:

Here's another decent strength feat I wanted to point out:

Rumlow rag-dolled the enhanced human Deadpool:

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And if you wanna talk about hurting an enhanced human, Rumlow kicked the crap out of a distracted Captain America, which just goes to show that he can strike with a similar amount of force,given they they can both hurt enhanced humans:

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He also dropped Captain America outright, after knocking him around a little with his heat blast upgrades (hits stats didn't improve, however):

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Speed:

I should also highlight another cool speed feat from my previous scans:

Here, he dances around a group of young superhumans, including the Frog-Man and dodges a blast from Firestar:

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His speed will allow him to avoid KGBeast's reasonably impressive aim.

Getting around durability:

Crossbones is not one to skim on gunfire:

He filled Bucky's suit with more lead than Tupac Shakur:

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As evidenced by his fight against Wolverine, when he knows his opponent can take some gunfire, he'll try to pump them full of lead until they stop moving:

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To summarize:

While your table is in many ways correct, I feel I need to elaborate on a few things:

- While Crossbones does have superior strength and has more versatility, these advanatages are hardly massive. 'Bones comes close in both categories

- Durability is his only massive edge. Even so, Crossbones has the weapons and necessary accuracy to negate this edge eventually

- 'Bones has the edge in intelligence, strategy and creativity. He's far more likely to find cover and attack from a distance, while KGBeast just seems to be a very skilled brute

- Crossbones speed means he'll be able to always be one step ahead of KGBeast, beat him to the draw and otherwise evade him.

- In CQC, Brock can use his considerable striking power, superior speed, bullet-proof material cutting knife and skill, to stun or stop the Beast long enough for him to use weapons to gain the advantage

Overall though, it's a very close fight and I'm now ready for votes @jwalser3

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#16 Edited by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: I guess I'm ready as well. But there is something I'd like to add...

Rumlow rag-dolled the enhanced human Deadpool:

This isn't the same as taking on a venom induced foe. Deadpool isn't heavy and he doesn't have super strength. The feat is equal to him throwing a normal person. Sure he's enhanced, just not in the department were it would even matter.

My chart still stands IMO. I don't see Crossbones having strength over an enhanced human.

Crossbones speed means he'll be able to always be one step ahead of KGBeast, beat him to the draw and otherwise evade him

Tell that to Robin, Huntress, and King Snake.

Ah! But any way, let us open voting!

@killemall@pope052@tparks@lvenger@dondave@god_spawn@neongamewave@ghostravage@limpoyzloan@wolverine08@jashro44@thundergodswrath@nighthunder: @life_without_progress

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#17 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

As I mentioned before, it's a shame this didn't get more traffic. Despite the ambiguity of the combatants, they made for a fair match and were represented impeccably well in this debate by the both of you. I don't know either of them well at all but hopefully I can give a fair vote on this awesome CAV.

Jwalser did a solid job outling KGBeast's physical advantages clearly and concisely as well as displaying some nice counters to Stooge's forceful rebuttals. It's clear he had a grasp of KGB's feats and abilities to say the least. His physical/durability argument does make for a compelling case.

On the other hand, ComicStooge had equal familiarity in the context of the debate with his chosen character of Crossbones. Though Jwalser may have shown KGB had the physical edge, CS did close the gap by highlight Rumlow's comparable physicals to show a purely physical brawl would be close enough. Moreover, I felt CS' counters were slightly stronger and more effective than Jwalser's were in combating their respective problems and dangers in the battle. Not to mention that Crossbones proved to be faster, agile and a more accurate marksman.

Overall, though I do agree with Jwalser's chart of advantages for KGBeast and Crossbones, one thing tips the scales. And that's how CS pointed out that Crossbones will be more likely to pump KGB full of lead or take more lethal measured to permanently put his foe down. That stood out for me. Thus, @comicstooge just about gets my vote in this tightly debated CAV.

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#18 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not entirely sure who to vote for as I feel you both did a good job showing your advantages. Crossbones seems faster, more skilled and more tactical but KGbeast is more durable and has better gear. I guess if I had to pick I might give a slight edge to @jwalser3. KGbeast can use his explosive round which is a pretty big area of effect attack to counter crossbones speed, and his durability will make him harder to kill. Crossbones will probably get more shots in, but KG beast is probably accurate enough to tag crossbones with his explosives considering he tagged batman with a knife.

Good debating to the both of you. I also learned a lot reading this debate.

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#19 Posted by darktiger (4861 posts) - - Show Bio

A good debate but I feel comicstooge was more persuasive in his approach

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#20 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (23437 posts) - - Show Bio

Very solid debate, guys! You guys really made it hard to choose but in the end I'd vote for jwalser3 for points jashro already pointed out

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#21 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate! i'm gonna vote on @jwalser3 because i think that his arguments show that KGBeast, should win here.

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#22 Posted by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Frozen (21098 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 is one of the best current debaters; underrated, whereas @comicstooge is also very good. In terms of voting, I give my vote to @jwalser3. I'll explain later.

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#24 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by jwalser3 (6127 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Oh lol sorry. I'm half asleep.

@frozen said:

@jwalser3 is one of the best current debaters; underrated, whereas @comicstooge is also very good. In terms of voting, I give my vote to @jwalser3. I'll explain later.

Seriously thank you!

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#26 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Thanks, man!

@frozen said:

@jwalser3 is one of the best current debaters; underrated, whereas @comicstooge is also very good. In terms of voting, I give my vote to @jwalser3. I'll explain later.

Thanks for the complement, hombre! :

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#28 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Twas a pleasure to read such an underrated yet thrilling debate mate :)

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#29 Posted by dcandmarvel (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

Well done guys

This cav seems to close to me My vote goes to @comicstooge I think he brought some good arguments which proved Crossbones Would win the match

Too close though

Was A nice Debate

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#30 Posted by TheDandyMan (5175 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a close one and even now I'm unsure of who would win. However, I'm gonna give a small edge to comicstooge as I preferred the way his argument was presented and the detail it showed. Both sides did well though and I have learnt something about each of the characters, well done.

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#31 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42655 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: @jwalser3: Old bump, but im giving this to Jwalser, KGBeast just seems more impressive, I think he'd be too much for Brock in close range fight and as said above he has his explosives for range.