CaV: Juubi Madara (God_Vulcan) vs 3 Admirals (Shirso) Voting Open!!!

Can i vote for both, coz i cant choose between them.

@god_vulcan: You definitely crushed this. Shirso didn't have a solid counter until the speed argument, and I personally disagree with Eneru and Nami's lightning being actual lightning speed. He did not convince me to change that. Shirso's biggest problem is that he did have any proof that the Admirals could damage Madara outside of vague scaling and non canon films. You definitly won this one.

My vote goes to @god_vulcan. He made a more reasonable and compelling argument that was understandable. Whereas, @shirso focused a lot on scaling his characters off of others or deflecting the argument. For example, when he stated the admirals can resist Chikabu Tensei since Zoro resisted a gravitational pull and that gives them time to destroy it but he never counter when Vulcan said that Madara would be able to make multiple. Based off of durability feats presented I don't see the Admirals being able to tank the TSB and other attacks Madara can use as stated by Vulcan. It also seemed a lot of other scaling was done off the Strawhats considering he showed their speed as lighting timers and that automatically make the Admirals many times faster.

@larcadedragneel: @flashingsabre: Thank you!!

I was really, really skeptical because I felt some of my arguments were shaky,but I genuinely appreciate the feedback

Vote count:

God_Vulcan - 2

Shirso - 0

@flashingsabre: We already discussed to use composite Admirals feats before the fight starts, as otherwise Kizaru would have very little to work with.

Love how OPM fans love wanking the moon feat and make saitama MFTL. Oh wait that's only you..... funny how things work huh?

@god_vulcan: This was an incredibly one-sided match up, I don't know who won debate wise, but Shirso trying to argue against Naruto LS feats is annoying, there's plenty of evidence backing this feat and proving its consistent, and its annoying that its being brought up here, and the comparison between that feat and Kuma's is stupid. The air itself is being repelled at the speed of light the attack itself isn't light speed.......

This was especially one-sided because Godvulcan showed the large differences in power and showed the many abilities he had, my issue with him was he was trying to hard to establish superiority in areas that don't matter, Madara for one doesn't have the freezing resistance necessary to shrug off Aokoji's attacks at full power, so that's a moot argument, secondly he didn't utilize all of Madara's techniques, third he gave up too easily on the limbo clones

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo:_Border_Jail

They cannot be perceived under normal means, plus Shirso barely showed any showings with Observation Haki regarding the limbo clones.

To be honest, Nami's lightning early on in the series shouldn't be as fast as normal lightning, and Luffy wasn't outright seen reacting to a lightning bolt from the clouds......and considering the level of the characters at the time lightning timing is something that is consistent with the current strawhats and characters like them considering the meteor feat.

IDK, this was honestly a good read because I reeducated myself on both series, but debate wise it wasn't all that.

I'll give this to Godvulcan for now until I see the other votes and look at their analysis. Because overall I wasn't convinced Madara was going down, I wasn't convinced his power could be matched and i wasn't convinced his attacks were being countered.

That was a very interesting CAV I enjoyed reading it.

That's a very hard choice but, basing on what i've read, my vote goes to@god_vulcan. Good work with Madara's feats and good counters against the Admirals. You also proved certain Madara's feats that Admirals can't do anything or almost, such as TSB, immortality and Limbo.
However you could also put some feats to counter Kizaru and H2H fight against the Admirals.

• TSB have also Light and Dark properties not only Katon, Doton, Raiton, Fuuton and Suiton. The 5 natural elements. And i'm pretty sure that Dark property combined with the other 6 elements can counter and injure Kizaru's light body. Or the speed of TSB.
  
  
• To connect TSB Light and Dark property with H2H fight. The Juubi Jin demostrated to create TSB shapes such as Nunoboko sword and shield, Shakujo stick and many other forms (giant TSB hands etc.) all of this can be used in a H2H fight. Demostrated by Juubito and Juudara in several occasions. For example Juudara nullified a point-blank Hirudora and cut away...and nullified...KCM Minato's arm during his teleportation with his Shakujo stick.
  
  
• God: Nativity of a World of Trees. is a technique used to manipulate the roots of the Shinju, spreading them around the entire world.

Mainly good job. I dunno if you could also used Composite feats for Madara just like with Admirals (Madara has a lot of unique and incredible feats thanks to videogames and some anime feats), but still good job.

The first posts of Shirso were focused on Admirals powers and not to much on counter many feats of Madara. The last post was very well done, really, and i appreciated the Composite feats for Kizaru. Nice move.

Tally:

Shirso: 0

God Vulcan: 5

@deathhero61: Just a query, did you think the fight itself is one sided, as in Madara vs the 3 Admirals is a mismatch or did you mean the debate was one sided?

@deathhero61: My fucking goodness! Plenty of evidence to back this "consistent" feat? Hop off narutos dick bro. He did that once. That also means barely reacting to it once. In no way is that feat perfectly established. I remember when i was a lurker here and nearly half the people declared that feat as stupid. Some even went far enough to prove that it was not a piercing attack but infact a slashing attack.

All things aside, even if we deem it to be LS, madara would only have LS reactions. He will never ever have LS combat/travel. Saitama legit has LS combat feats. You need to read webcomic. So yes, shirso should have argued more against that LS feat but sadly he didnt.

Saitama is MFTL via calcs. Hes LS via feats and scaling. That is it. Sometimes some narutards impressive me. "Evidence" and "consistent" i lost it when i read those two words. People somehow have now accepted those feats because naruto was stomping HST and people started using him above HST tiers like hulk and jin mori. Naruto got stomped and with time, it become "common" knowledge that naruto is LS even though people still forget that hes only LS reactions.

god vulcan gets my vote but barely. You re changing your stance once you were countered midway is a big negative. You also should not have gone ham with that LS feat via scaling. Its a poor feat in every regard and madara still had many many ways he could win without that feat.

@sayo786: Actually I did discuss in length why Madara can't be scaled to Naruto, see the speed section of my final post.

Relativistic feats, weaker characters were faster than lightning since part 1, and there's characters like Raikage who have statements regarding their reflexes that make the claims for light speed sound credible overall. Naruto and Sasuke at base crossing from one edge of the Naruto Map to the other in a few seconds. Heck Naruto and Toneri were running across the surface of the moon during their fight in short bursts. There is no legit reason as to why the feat cannot be legit except rampant complaining.

You are so quick to dismiss Naruto feats, but even faster to hype up OPM. Especially Saitama. Don't bother getting involved in any debate involving Naruto if you know you are simply going to antagonize anyone who has a different opinion from yours. At the very least respectfully say you disagree and walk away or formulate your reasoning based off your difference in opinion and walk away, but nooooo you gotta be an ass about it.

The matchup itself was onesided, the debate was relatively even. The funny thing is, most people have profile picks or a specific set of characters to make some type of presence of themselves, you on the otherhand are plain, nothing on your page, no quote, nothing. So seeing you debate is always a surprise for me, because you bring something new to the table when someone wouldn't expect you to.

Not interested in the characters but the debaters intrigue me. Think I'll read this CAV/

I'm giving my vote to shirso.

he proved aokiji could freeze ko madara, Vulcan did provide counters, but the counters are too slow and requires too much focus.

Neither side proved to be faster then the other(except kizaru's travel and energy blast speed).

Vulcan proved plenty of ways to kill the admirals, even proving better dc and even more paths to victory.

however the ease of use for the admirals win condition, makes it way more likely that the match will end with a ice age flash freeze from aokiji, before madara can use his tsb or planetary devastation(controlling them will leave him open to ice age).

@deathhero61: Ah well yes my apologies. I mistook you for some hyper nardo wankers but your simply scaling off stuff. Raikage isnt close to LS. Only naruto in so6p amps dodges a LS attack and he had kyuubi, pre cog, sage awareness to help him aswell. No one in naruto is "consistently" LS. Only naruto himself is a LS REACTION only char. People above him are scaled off him. So yes, he showed one single feat in all 700 mangas about dodging a lightspeed attack. Shirso had perfectly good reason to argue against it since we know sasuke is NOT as good as naruto in stats. Keyword stats. The sage literally gives sasuke hax amps and naruto physique amps. Naruto is SUPPOSED to be stronger, faster and more durable than sasuke. Sasuke makes up for it via rinnegan hax and teleportation.

Juudara and kaguya also have a solid case for me to argue that they simply reacted to naruto via them having insane pre cog. Also naruto himself does not have LS combat speed. He only has LS reaction speed so theres no point in dragging this on. Juudara and kaguya cannot be scaled because naruto never hits at LS. Period.

I vote God_Vulcan.

He countered almost everything and showed the feats to support his claim without too much power scaling.

the numbers advantage was clearly useless against someone with clones and even if haki could help differentiating the clones from the real the number advantage would still be in madara favour.

Also aokiji flash freezing was easily countered by doffy (who is way weaker than madara).

The only thing I think God_Vulcan should have used more were the limbo clones and TSB which the admiral can't counter or defend against.

That said both of you did an amazing job and the CAV was really enjoyable to read.

I'll have to read it again. Was gone for while.

Interesting. May I ask why?

Vote count:

Vulcan - 6

Shirso - 1

Very comprehensive and well written debate on both sides. My vote goes to @god_vulcan. He showed how Madara was faster, more versatile, more powerful and more hax, he made a case for arguing how Madara could affect the Admirals despite their intangibility and he countered most of Shirso's arguments much more compellingly than Shirso managed to deal with his counters. Shriso couldn't really deal with TSB, immortality and Madara's hax. According to what voters who I presume are more familiar with One Piece than I am have said, shirso used non canon movies as sources which don't count as part of the canon.

That didn't come out right. I definitely know Madara so the match up did get my interest, not so much the 3 admirals, but I knew about you and god_vulcan as debaters.

@lvenger: We agreed to use composite feats for the Admirals before starting.

@lvenger: Thank you for the vote as well as the compliment. I look forward to debating you sometime in the future (once you're less busy, because I know you have like a billion ongoing ones right now as well as real world things to worry about)

@shirso: What do you want the votes to be decided by? The first to a certain number or close after a specific date?

@shirso: All right if that was the rule then that rules out that criticism. Probably would have been best to put that in the rules though.

@god_vulcan You did well against a capable opponent so it's more than deserved.

Let's keep it open for another week to allow as many people to vote as possible. Also can you put movie feats for the Admirals (specifically Z movie) in the rules and if possible in the title? This has already cost me at least 2 votes.

@shirso: sounds good to me

and sorry about that

Thanks for the kind words. Just curious, have you read any of my previous CaV's, because I haven't debated with the characters you are known to be interested in (Superman, MMH, etc), at least not yet.

bump

My vote goes to Vulcan.

Debate it was almost even, but Shirso used too much scaling instead of actually countering Vulcan's. Anyway I personally feel that Vulcan could have used limbo more, this could have make this debate weight much more on his side that its now.

Anyway good debate both of you, I enjoy reading through them.

N.B: People who are complaining about non-cannon movie for OP, please read whole thread, they decided to use feats from Z movie. So it shouldn't be a problem.

My vote goes to Vulcan. To be honest this was a very good debate and wasn't in any way one sided, Vulcan ultimately takes the cake due to better representation and counters whereas Shirso scaled one too many times. Props to both debaters though, this was entertaining.

my vote goes to @shirso

Also shirso I don't like the fact u missed A LOT of key points for admirals. It is as if u rushed it.

Good job though...

@eazy2002: Ha ha thanks, but this was done a long time ago when I didn't know many of the OP feats that I do now.

@shirso: ok, the Cav was good though