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#101 Posted by DeathHero61 (18826 posts) - - Show Bio

You know what I love? I love how new users actually know and respect the format of a CAV and can properly organize their posts. I freaking love that with all my heart. This just means I can literally have a CAV even with the newer users.

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#102 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio
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#103 Edited by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone get dh61 a good guy of the year trophy immediately.

O/T will vote monetarily since this isn't that long

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#104 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio
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#105 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio
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#106 Posted by Chaos239 (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Erm, you do know I voted for Obito right? Not Jiraiya

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#107 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239: indeed. I was just expressing my gratitude to you for dropping a vote

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#108 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16182 posts) - - Show Bio

R

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#109 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio
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#110 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16182 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Lol. Sorry. With all the spam tags I've been getting, I had to leave myself a placeholder so I could find my way back to the thread.

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#111 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#112 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#113 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#114 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#116 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#117 Posted by Foremostproxy (478 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote is for @streak619, if only because he managed to hoodwink @thenewguysnm1 into giving him Sage Mode to begin with (not stated anywhere in the OP).

Morals off, thenewguysnm1 should have argued hard that Jiraiya would never have the leeway to reach Sage Mode at all. Jiraiya spends an inordinate amount of time pretty much helpless to even summon the Sage Toads. It's hard to argue that Gamaken or any number of toads would be able to defend Jiraiya until he could summon the Sage Toads, imo.

Regardless of whether or not Obito could beat Hybrid Sage Mode, pointing out the difficulty of even obtaining Hybrid Sage Mode would have bolstered thenewguysnm1's argument by a large degree.

It was a good knife fight in terms of a CAV, but big missed opportunities overcome subtle advantages every time.

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#118 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@Foremostproxy: thanks for the vote.

And honestly I was praying he wouldn't use that and he didn't. While I had appropriate strategies and arguments to counter this chalked out, it would have been harder.

Streak: 1

Newguysnm1: 1

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#119 Edited by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: you had somewhat decent counters and presented a logical explanation. However your lack of scans and formatting really hurt you along with some of the claims you made being as equally as nonsensical as your opponents with the biggest one being frog kata not applying to Jiraiya when it's litterally stated to be frog kong fu taught from Fukasu himself.....that and the fact that you basically Stole your entire opener, had no original interpretations of your own, and just basically relied on 'obits stomps' rather than delving into how he actually gets around Jiraiyas power set in the first place. You downplayed the power of his summons to a laughable degree as well even though he in turn highballed them and as a result most of them weren't accounted for properly IMO even with Kamui.

@streak619: you presented a much better argument and tbh you had a much better strategy that sold it more for you. However you aren't without faults, even though your comparisons were logical you highballed the hell out of them and made some utterly obscure statements. However you were adamant about Jiraiya having Frog Kata and you actually provided a more valid reason as to why he would have it which is probably the most pivotal point in this argument. You also lost some major points by downplaying the hell out of other characters though. Specifically Sharingan users in H2H/CQC which is utterly surprising for someone like you when Kakashi/Guy has like the most outstanding overall showings of skill/technique in the series in these areas and Obito was fighting them both dead evenly even whilst outnumbered.

My vote would have to go to streak tbh

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#120 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#121 Posted by HigherPower (12392 posts) - - Show Bio
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#122 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#123 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off, thenewguysnm1 should have argued hard that Jiraiya would never have the leeway to reach Sage Mode at all. Jiraiya s

and finally hasn't actually proven how jirayia will by enough time to transform which is entire flawed argument hinges on

that was literally the last thing i said though ur right i focused to much on sm and should have gone more in depth on how the fight would not last long enough for sm to be a factor

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#124 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#125 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#126 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio
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#127 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: "laughably stronger jutsu and chakra potency" is a blatant highball along with the strength accusations breaking his bones. I mean realistically they would be on the same level with Obito on the lower end (basically equal to Kakashi).

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#128 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern:

Well I did subtantiate it. I showed that a combo b/w the ninjutsu of toads, Naruto and toad oil was enough to drive a tailed beast away.

Senjutsu combos b/w sage Jiraiya and the two great sages should be much superior to even that.

Do you think Obito has the firepower to drive a tailed beast away?

And yeah the breaking bones thing, was pre rinnegan Obito, i brought this up because Obito took some massive damage with a simple rasengan.

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#129 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#130 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Uh....seeing as Obito oneshotted a full Kurama with Genjutsu and controlled the other tailed beasts with chakra chains (albeit the seal was vastly weakened) yea, he could drive any Biju away. Rather easily.

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#131 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern: I'm talking about ninjutsu, not genjutsu. Naruto pushed back and drove away Isobu, a water using bijuu, with firestyle ninjutsu that Jiraiya can massively supersede.

Do you think Obito's Katon can drive a away Isobu?

The chains of the Gedo are six paths haxes, his non rinnegan jutsu don't hold a candle to the paths of the rinnegan. I don't see how you can argue Obito's Katon overpowering Jiraiya's

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#132 Posted by Darthjhawk (5588 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: @thenewguysnm1: Alright after reading through this a couple times, I think I have to give my vote to@streak619. Although I did have some problems with how characters and aspects of the debate were handled. I talk a bit below:

Streak: I think overall you were the better debater in this matchup. The main issue is that your over-reliance on scaling to Sage Naruto. Sage Naruto and Sage Jiraiya have two different functions and uses out of Sage Mode. Naruto is a perfect Sage , whereas Jiraiya is not. This is evident by how Jiriaya needs Ma an Pa toads and Naruto does not. However within the confines of the debate, your opponent could not really disprove this. There was also some pretty blatant lowballing of Obito's physicals and Kamui, and I am not too sure where you were getting the idea that Kawazu Kumite can affect intangibility. However, NewGuy couldn't sufficiently counter this and as such you took the win.

Thenewguysnm1: You should have have a much easier time presenting Obito's feats and abilities, but unfortunately you mainly just talked about Kamui and struggled with countering Streak's points. To be honest, this is the result of copying my posts and not doing your own work. if you truly looked into, you would see that Obito is just as versatile if not more so than Jiraiya and has the means to counter nearly everything he has. You gave up on too many points which led to you losing the debate for me.

So as I said, good job to both of you, and while their could have been improvements and despite my disagreements, it was a good read. Streak gets the win though.

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#133 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: thank you for the vote.

I'l just say one thing, Kamui only teleports certain parts of your body and it is activated by the user.

Since Obito cannot see the invisible strikes, even if he activates it, he doesn't know where the strike will land. If he doesn't know where it will land, he won't know which part of his body to teleport to his dimension. Hence he will get striked.

Also Naruto's sage mode and Jiraiya's sage mode is pretty much the same. Naruto has better profficience and control and a different style is all.

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#134 Edited by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: uh because he has a natural affinity for fire and has shown it on a similar scale......i mean technically speaking if we compare scans Gedo is bigger than gama so we can suggest it's bigger AoE. That ontop of the fact that it matched Madaras fireball ( who already was about to oneshot the 5 Kage with a weaker version) whose superior to Jiraiya by a fair margin should be enough tbh.

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#135 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest, this is the result of copying my posts and not doing your own work.

lol

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#136 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern:

uh because he has a natural affinity for fire and has shown it on a similar scale

As does Jiraiya, and when has Obito shown any impressive firestyle? By Jiraiya's standards? He used it twice or thrice after his identity was exposed. Against Kakashi who countered with a simple Doton. Against Naruto and army once or twice.

That ontop of the fact that it matched Madaras fireball

It did? Hmm...

When was this tho? I kinda vaguely remember him launching a firestyle alongside Madara but I don't remember him matching or equaling it at all. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

i mean technically speaking if we compare scans Gedo is bigger than gama so we can suggest it's bigger AoE

That is a reasonable assertion, but potency is a different matter. Jiraiya's jutsu may appear to be smaller but it has much superior jutsu potency.

Besides Naruto's combo also could be scaled to bijuu AOE and upon further scaling, to what Jiraiya should be capable of, I still don't see how Obito's katon is superior.

Jiraiya has impressive AOE from scaling and by established facts; his jutsu have an innate large potency boost due to sage jutsu chakra >> normal chakra.

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#137 Posted by Darthjhawk (5588 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Frog Kata does not work like some omnidirectional blow. It extends the range of an attack. The best example is when naruto uses it against pain:

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You see where it only extended from his fist right? All Obito has to do is use Kamui and make his upper half intangible and phase through it. You cant throw a punch at someone's head and expect it to hit their leg right? This is that same concept. Besides if it really did work on Kamui then Naruto would have used it to counter Kamui in the War Arc. There was a reason that Kakashi was in the fight. He was the only reason a team of Naruto, Kakashi, Gai and Killer B could inflict any damage on Obito.

Also Naruto's sage mode and Jiraiya's sage mode is pretty much the same. Naruto has better profficience and control and a different style is all.

You're saying they're the same, but you give exact reasons why they aren't. How can you use their feats interchangeably, when you said yourself that Naruto has better mastery, control and an entirely different style? Do you see the contradiction here?

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#138 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: but i stated that he would never be allowed to transform

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#139 Posted by Darthjhawk (5588 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: except you didn’t go into how or why. Details are important. Jiraiya activated his Sage Mode against Pain by using summons and feints to distract them and he isn’t exactly slow. Saying he just does it without how he does it, does not help make a case.

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#141 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

You see where it only extended from his fist right? All Obito has to do is use Kamui and make his upper half intangible and phase through it.

Yeah he can, but he doesn't even know what hit him. He just has general knowledge. Besides, considering that he can't predict where or how much the attack and range can extend to. It is unlikely he would go on fighting erasing massive chunks of his body. But increasing the amount of his body that he teleports is a temporary and an energy draining strategy.

Besides he increases his range of his entire body, so being a foot close to literally any of Jiraiya's limbs will be bad.

Besides if it really did work on Kamui then would have used it to counter Kamui in the War Arc.

WiS, and Naruto didn't know he could combine sage mode and kyuubi chakra back then

You're saying they're the same, but you give exact reasons why they aren't.

I was a bit unclear. They're essentially the same. Their cores and fundamental are the same.

I'm asserting that their physical stats are more or less interchangeable due to the above reason

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#142 Posted by Darthjhawk (5588 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619:

Yeah he can, but he doesn't even know what hit him. He just has general knowledge. Besides, considering that he can't predict where or how much the attack and range can extend to. It is unlikely he would go on fighting erasing massive chunks of his body. But increasing the amount of his body that he teleports is a temporary and an energy draining strategy.

Then can you show me how Naruto or even Jiraiya for that matter uses Frog Kata Omnidirectionally? And he cant predict attacks? That is exactly what the Sharingan does. You should know this, you've debated for Sasuke before. And not spamming Kamui? That is Obito's main strategy dude. From the first time he used after rin died to his fight agaisnt the Shinobi alliance in the War Arc. he does not get drained like Kakashi does. You should also know that as well, I know you have good knowledge on the series.

Besides he increases his range of his entire body, so being a foot close to literally any of Jiraiya's limbs will be bad.

Why? He can casually make his entire body intangible against a TBB, Jiraiya's body wouldn't;t be much of a problem

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WiS, and Naruto didn't know he could combine sage mode and kyuubi chakra back then

How is that WIS? He used Sage Mode when he went up against Roshi, and his KCM is a faster form than SM.

I was a bit unclear. They're essentially the same. Their cores and fundamental are the same.

I'm asserting that their physical stats are more or less interchangeable due to the above reason

Unfortunately that is not the case, Naruto is a perfect Sage, Jiraiya is not. You are using characters who have different baseline stats that get bigger with their respective SM buffs. You even said yourself that Naruto's proficiency, and control is better and he has a different style. You can't just go back on that.

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#143 Edited by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: I'm on mobile so I can't post scans. Gamas Senjutsu made it capable of such power yes, however we clearly see that power is casually matched by someone like Madara (whose rival is the best Sage user in the series). Insinuating because someone has Sage mode thier attacks are automatically more powerful than similar attacks is asinine. You can't quantify the potency of the attack so this stance would automatically be a circular argument.

Not to mention Sage mode is simply the body of a Sage as is the uchiha have the eyes of a Sage. Jiraiya doesn't even have the real body of a Sage and Madara and Obito are the strongest Uchiha in the verse. In no way logically does Jiraiya come out as a superior ninjutsu user. Even the comparison to Kakashi is moot as he just might be the best ninjutsu specialist in the series as well.

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#144 Edited by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

Then can you show me how Naruto or even Jiraiya for that matter uses Frog Kata Omnidirectionally?

When did i say he can use it omnidirectionally?

And he cant predict ? That is exactly what the Sharingan does.

There is no evidence that the Sharingan can predict invisible sage attacks

In a filler, Naruto uses kawazu kumite against Sasuke and he got hit by the attack

How is that WIS? He used Sage Mode when he went up against Roshi, and his KCM is a faster form than SM.

...I'm guessing you mean Obito? How does that disprove WiS? It was bad writing that made Naruto uncharacteristically unresourceful and not use sage mode.

Not to mention, he wasn't aware that he could mix sage mode and kyuubi chakra

Why? He can casually make his entire body intangible against a TBB, Jiraiya's body wouldn't;t be much of a problem

Except he knew the AOE and extent of how much he needs to become intangible

Unfortunately that is not the case, Naruto is a perfect Sage, Jiraiya is not. You are using characters who have different baseline stats that get bigger with their respective SM buffs. You even said yourself that Naruto's proficiency, and control is better and he has a different style. You can't just go back on that.

Listen, Jiraiya has a much stronger base and Naruto has stronger sage mode, this narrows down the gap a lot. I said he should be capable of something similar, which is a logical assertion

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#145 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern:

I'm on mobile so I can't post .

I'm on mobile too tho

however we clearly see that power is casually matched by someone like Madara (whose rival is the best Sage user in the series).

True, though I disagree with Hashi being the best SM user

Insinuating because someone has Sage mode thier attacks are automatically more powerful than similar attacks is asinine.

I have substantiated that, I have shown Jiraiya's senjutsu is capable of far greater than what Obito's firestyle is capable of. Obito's firestyle was stopped by a simple Doton. Jiraiya would laugh at that

Not to mention Sage mode is simply the body of a Sage as is the uchiha have the eyes of a Sage. Jiraiya doesn't even have the real body of a Sage and Madara and Obito are the strongest Uchiha in the verse. In no way logically does Jiraiya come out as a superior ninjutsu user.

Fallacious logic. Being a sharingan user does not grant you the same chakra potency of ninjutsu as a sage. That is what your statements seem to be implying

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#146 Posted by Darthjhawk (5588 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: You are almost making me want to redo the match myself, but I don't want to derail your thread any further so this will be my last post on the subject.

When did i say he can use it omnidirectionally?

Based on the fate that you seem to believe that Frog Kata will hit an intangible Obito who can just phase his entire body through an attack that be aimed for his head or chest. Obito can stay intangible for five minutes straight you know.

There is no evidence that the Sharingan can predict invisible sage attacks

In a filler, Naruto uses kawazu kumite against Sasuke and he got hit by the attack

Aren't fillers non-canon? Since when do we apply those to debates? Can you show me the instance? ANd I never said that they can predict invisible sage attacks just attacks in general and in Obito's case he'll just turn intangible like he did with every instance in his fights.

I'm guessing you mean Obito? How does that disprove WiS? It was bad writing that made Naruto uncharacteristically resourceful and not use sage mode.

Not to mention, he wasn't aware that he could mix sage mode and kyuubi chakra

No, I am talking about this:

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Hell he even used both modes at the same time here so even without mixing them he could have still used them. And are you calling WIS just because you don't like that he didn't do it? He was using a stronger form is what was happening, not being OOC. And BSM has nothing to do with this right now.

Except he knew the AOE and extent of how much he needs to become intangible

But the attack was bigger either way, are you just unwilling to admit that he could phase through especially when he solos and fights dead evenly with characters stronger than Jiraiya all at once?

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Listen, Jiraiya has a much stronger base and Naruto has stronger sage mode, this narrows down the gap a lot. I said he should be capable of something similar, which is a logical assertion

What feats suggest that Jiraiya has a stronger base form than Naruto. And again you state again the characters have different stats and forms yet you still use them interchangeably. Do you see the contradiction?

Besides that I already voted for you either way so there's no need to continue this. I won't derail your thread any longer.

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#147 Posted by ValorKnight (12412 posts) - - Show Bio

Remind me not to debate against thenewguysnm1 again; stealing other user's work because you're to lazy to do it yourself is pathetic.

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#148 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: he took it from his own posts from other CaVs though.

Can you vote btw?

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#149 Edited by ValorKnight (12412 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619 said:

@valor_175: he took it from his own posts from other CaVs though.

Can you vote btw?

DJH said something about him copying his post a few comments up, and he has done the same in a debate that I was participating in.

Maybe later.

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#150 Posted by Streak619 (7742 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern: @darthjhawk: If you don't mind, I would like to continue our debates in PMs, don't wanna divert the topic anymore as darth earlier said