CaV: Jashro44 (Spidey, Black Panther) Sirfizzwhizz (Morbius, WBN, Scarecrow, Blackout) (VOTING OPEN)

  • 70 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for jashro44
#51 Edited by jashro44 (54798 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#52 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Alright I'm actually done.

YES! This was a fun CaV and glad we finish one after so many years my old friend. Happy Halloween.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#53 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#54 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Great. Didn't think this would actually finish. Lol. I will read through this later.

Avatar image for jashro44
#55 Edited by jashro44 (54798 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Alright I'm actually done.

YES! This was a fun CaV and glad we finish one after so many years my old friend. Happy Halloween.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#56 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:
@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Alright I'm actually done.

YES! This was a fun CaV and glad we finish one after so many years my old friend. Happy Halloween.

Glad you enjoyed it.

We haven't CaV in forever, this was fun.

Avatar image for vertigo-
#58 Posted by Vertigo- (17904 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, this actually finished? I'll read through this later

Avatar image for cable_extreme
#59 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16831 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow... I finally read it all..... Both of yall are better debaters than I so my input may not be all that important.

After reading the SirFizzWhizz intro, I was worried about Blackout specifically fighting agaisn't Black Panther as I felt it was a pretty strong opponent. However in Jashro's opener I really like how he started with the point of their teamwork as well as fighting ghost in the dark that they could not see. This is actually a great point by Jashro that really hit a chord with me. I think both of yall did a good job providing feats and backing up your arguments however I felt SirFizzWhizz was on the defensive most of the time. Jashro was good at questioning the scans provided by SirFizzWhizz inciting doubt in many of your points for me, like Morbius's speed dodging Spider-man's webbing in the dark. That sort of doubt played a role in the debate at least for me when reading it.

Jashro did a great job overall countering points, my favorite point is SirFizzWhizz bringing up immortality of WBN and Jashro's counter was that he could still be KO'd and brought up examples. It is really hard and the first half I was leaning towards SirFizzWhizz, but I felt @jashro44 did a better job in the debate as he effectively put SirfFIzzWhizz on the defensive and not questioning Jashro's scans as much as trying to reprove his own. Great job though from both of you. It was an honor to read.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#60 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Thanks for voting. Though I dont see how I was on the defensive. I seen and agree with all the scans Jash showed. Meanwhile my characters are obscure to him and he wanted to know more. Hardly me on the defensive. Thanks for voting though.

Avatar image for jashro44
#61 Posted by jashro44 (54798 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for cable_extreme
#62 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16831 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Thanks for voting. Though I dont see how I was on the defensive. I seen and agree with all the scans Jash showed. Meanwhile my characters are obscure to him and he wanted to know more. Hardly me on the defensive. Thanks for voting though.

Well, if this is any consolidation, you debated way better than I could, your CaV prowess is among the best I have seen.

Defensive portion is the whole Morbius's speed. You spent a good portion of the CaV providing feats for Morbius which proved he was around Spider-man's speed but I felt you spent waay too much time on the subject than you should have. ALso the Morbius's web dodging feat. Jashro was hardly ever defensive since you accepted most of his feats and points besides his criticism of your feats which you spent a lot of time on.

Either way, your knowledge of these guys is expert level, it was an informative read for sure.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#63 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@cable_extreme: Thanks for voting. Though I dont see how I was on the defensive. I seen and agree with all the scans Jash showed. Meanwhile my characters are obscure to him and he wanted to know more. Hardly me on the defensive. Thanks for voting though.

Well, if this is any consolidation, you debated way better than I could, your CaV prowess is among the best I have seen.

Defensive portion is the whole Morbius's speed. You spent a good portion of the CaV providing feats for Morbius which proved he was around Spider-man's speed but I felt you spent waay too much time on the subject than you should have. ALso the Morbius's web dodging feat. Jashro was hardly ever defensive since you accepted most of his feats and points besides his criticism of your feats which you spent a lot of time on.

Either way, your knowledge of these guys is expert level, it was an informative read for sure.

Ok, that I can see.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#64 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'll vote for @sirfizzwhizz as the winner. While both debaters were really good, I felt jashro kept repeating the fact that Spider-Man's armor increases his strength but he only showed the one statement and feat against Superior Ock, who himself is pretty much featless. And while sirfizzwhizz's argument that Morbius and WBN could slash through the armor was also not convincing, jashro didn't really provide any feats for the armor increasing Peter's durability until the last post (tbh, jashro waited till the last post to bring up a lot of Peter's tech, which I thought was kind of unfair since it could have all played a significant role in this fight, especially if sirfizzwhizz had a better chance to counter it), and even that one wasn't the best to use since Spider-Man used up a lot of webbing. The web spam strategy was really good, but I wasn't convinced Peter would do it in character (since all the scans jashro showed were of battles when he was under duress - the Marvel Knights one, the Iron Man one, the Daily Bugle one, etc.) so I kinda discounted that. Finally, although sirfizzwhizz only barely touched on this, I didn't see jashro countering the fact that Scarecrow's pheromones would incapacitate Peter (actually, the armor has mask filters but jashro didn't bring it up).

However, I think jashro did show why Panther should beat Scarecrow and Blackout pretty well IMO, with the chemical gate filters, and how he can use the darkness to his advantage (I didn't like that jashro used those scans of Panther's speed from the Spidey mini-series, which is non-canon, though). The Black Panther debate was clearly towards jashro's favor IMO.

Overall, I think sirfizzwhizz showed that either of his 2 characters could give Spidey a good fight, so together they should win more easily, while jashro didn't show Panther winning quite as easily against Blackout and Scarecrow. Which is why I think that he overall just clinched this debate. It was a great read though, so congrats to both of you! Happy Halloween everyone!

Avatar image for jashro44
#65 Posted by jashro44 (54798 posts) - - Show Bio

However, I think jashro did show why Panther should beat Scarecrow and Blackout pretty well IMO, with the chemical gate filters, and how he can use the darkness to his advantage (I didn't like that jashro used those scans of Panther's speed from the Spidey mini-series, which is non-canon, though). The Black Panther debate was clearly towards jashro's favor IMO.

Just in regards to this but as far as I know marvel has promoted spidey as canon (I know there is stuff in that series that doesn't make sense like the redesigns). Robbie Thompson was asked directly how he feels doing a canonical retelling of spider-mans high school years and he said this:

We’re not seeking to re-tell any stories per se, or do direct adaptations, but rather capture the tone and feeling of the original Lee/Ditko comics. Our goal is to make a fun book, a hopeful book, that someone coming off, say a Marvel movie with Spider-Man in it, can understand very easily. I’ve got an inside track to what Dan Slott has planned in Amazing Spider-Man (and it’s incredible) but the CEO of Parker Industries globe-trotting and such is a far cry from lowly high-school student Peter Parker.

I’m paraphrasing here, but I think Axel Alonso put it best at the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends panel at SDCC -- everyone has a FIRST Spider-Man comic book. And there are a lot of people who know Spider-Man from the movies, or the animated show or video games -- but not all of those folks have tapped into the source code of the character: the comics. Our hope is Spidey can be a gateway to new readers, inspiring them to dig through the endless Spider-Man comic lore -- whether it’s the classic stories of Lee and Ditko, or the epic world hopping stories to come in the pages of Dan Slott's Amazing Spider-Man. And we also hope to bring in lifelong fans with a trip down memory lane, harkening back to the types of stories those of us who grew up reading Spider-Man remember.

http://comicbook.com/2015/07/24/marvel-announces-high-school-era-spidey-series/

Likewise marvel promoted it as "a return to spider-mans high school years". Robbie Thompson also talked about how spider-man wasn't tied to "any longer stories or history just yet". The way he talked and the way marvel promoted it on there website makes me think its canon but marvel has no idea what there doing.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#66 Edited by blackspidey2099 (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah, to be honest I'm quite sure someone at Marvel did say it was canon (but that was before the series came out, so it could have been marketing talk), but either way I felt you should have at least made a note of the dubious nature of those scans. Either way, that wasn't a really big factor, since you convinced me Panther could win there either way.

But great job to both of you!

Avatar image for jashro44
#67 Posted by jashro44 (54798 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah, to be honest I'm quite sure someone at Marvel did say it was canon (but that was before the series came out, so it could have been marketing talk), but either way I felt you should have at least made a note of the dubious nature of those scans. Either way, that wasn't a really big factor, since you convinced me Panther could win there either way.

But great job to both of you!

Fair enough. Thanks for the feed back and the read.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#68 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#69 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Well, considering it is a huge retcon, and even the interviews don't directly say the series will be canon, but rather an adaptation of the original comics. That's why I think it's doubtful at best that it's canon, at least worthy of a disclaimer.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#70 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: Why is Spidey non-canon? The writers said repeatedly that it was stroies from Peter's past.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#71 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: well, they made major retcons, such as having Gwen be Peter’s love interest in high school (though they originally met in college), and making Sajani be an academic rival to Peter in high school (though they originally met at Horizon Labs). I know what the writers said, but to me it seems more like marketing speak than anything else. Tbh, it’s because of those interviews that I didn’t think it was too much of a big deal (otherwise I think posting a non-canon scan like that, without explicitly saying so, is an automatic lose for CaVs), but it would have been nice to see jashro just acknowledge the dubious nature of the scan.

Avatar image for thewatcherking
#72 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: well, they made major retcons, such as having Gwen be Peter’s love interest in high school (though they originally met in college), and making Sajani be an academic rival to Peter in high school (though they originally met at Horizon Labs). I know what the writers said, but to me it seems more like marketing speak than anything else. Tbh, it’s because of those interviews that I didn’t think it was too much of a big deal (otherwise I think posting a non-canon scan like that, without explicitly saying so, is an automatic lose for CaVs), but it would have been nice to see jashro just acknowledge the dubious nature of the scan.

tbh, if it is a recton then it can still be canon, it just changes how things originally happened.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#73 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: except that issues of Amazing Spider-Man (which came out AFTER the whole Spidey series finished) ignore the events of Spidey. For example, Spidey established that Gwen met Peter for the first time when they were both in high school, which is a huge retcon. However, ASM v4 23 has Gwen talking about meeting Peter for the first time when they were both at ESU. Clearly, ASM is the more trustworthy source regarding the 616 canon, and it also came out after Spidey. So there is no way Spidey can be canon to 616. The gray area is only because Marvel insinuated it would be canon before the series was released, which is why some people may think its canon if they haven’t really followed Spidey too much, and that’s fine.

Avatar image for thewatcherking
#74 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#75 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: except that issues of Amazing Spider-Man (which came out AFTER the whole Spidey series finished) ignore the events of Spidey. For example, Spidey established that Gwen met Peter for the first time when they were both in high school, which is a huge retcon. However, ASM v4 23 has Gwen talking about meeting Peter for the first time when they were both at ESU. Clearly, ASM is the more trustworthy source regarding the 616 canon, and it also came out after Spidey. So there is no way Spidey can be canon to 616. The gray area is only because Marvel insinuated it would be canon before the series was released, which is why some people may think its canon if they haven’t really followed Spidey too much, and that’s fine.

Wow, that is the nail in the coffin.

Avatar image for nortonek
#76 Posted by NortonEk (329 posts) - - Show Bio

up