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#1 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44

VS
VS

@super_soldierxii

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Rules

  • Morals are off
  • Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
  • Random Encounter
  • Black Panther is pre doom war
  • Wolverine has his healing factor
  • Standard gear

Location

  • Begin visible
  • Begin 30 feet apart
  • Fight takes place here:
No Caption Provided

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#2 Edited by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooooo :O

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#3 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio

Rooting for Panther :P

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#5 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii I will and get an opening post up soon because you said you won't likely be able to respond until after the new year all though read through the OP and if you want any changes let me know.

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#6 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

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#8 Edited by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

I was thinking of using classic black panther with the heart shaped herb, vibranium suit, energy daggers, and anti-metal claws.

All though current black panther has a suit that is insulated (probably not the vibranium suit), energy daggers, a teleporter, and a cloaking device all though I don't really want to use king of the dead black panther because his power level is pretty vague at the moment.

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#9 Edited by RenaissanceMan (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm rooting for Panther too :P

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#10 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

I was thinking of using classic black panther with the heart shaped herb, vibranium suit, energy daggers, and anti-metal claws.

All though current black panther has a suit that is insulated (probably not the vibranium suit), energy daggers, a teleporter, and a cloaking device all though I don't really want to use king of the dead black panther because his power level is pretty vague at the moment.

I'm good with that.

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#11 Posted by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

This CAV...(undercover brother voice)solid.This will be one to watch :)

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#12 Posted by BringnIt (3875 posts) - - Show Bio

Two of my favorite members on this site.

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#13 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@bringnit said:

Two of my favorite members on this site.

:P

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#14 Posted by dondave (41747 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet

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#15 Posted by RenaissanceMan (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

I was thinking of using classic black panther with the heart shaped herb, vibranium suit, energy daggers, and anti-metal claws.

All though current black panther has a suit that is insulated (probably not the vibranium suit), energy daggers, a teleporter, and a cloaking device all though I don't really want to use king of the dead black panther because his power level is pretty vague at the moment.

Just wanted to let you know that Hickman confirmed that current Panther does still wear a Vibranium suit.

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#16 Edited by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@renaissanceman said:

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

I was thinking of using classic black panther with the heart shaped herb, vibranium suit, energy daggers, and anti-metal claws.

All though current black panther has a suit that is insulated (probably not the vibranium suit), energy daggers, a teleporter, and a cloaking device all though I don't really want to use king of the dead black panther because his power level is pretty vague at the moment.

Just wanted to let you know that Hickman confirmed that current Panther does still wear a Vibranium suit.

Can you post a link as to where this was confirmed?

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#17 Posted by RenaissanceMan (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@renaissanceman said:

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Looks good.

However, be so kind as to let me know what you consider as standard gear for Black Panther these days. Please and thank you.

I was thinking of using classic black panther with the heart shaped herb, vibranium suit, energy daggers, and anti-metal claws.

All though current black panther has a suit that is insulated (probably not the vibranium suit), energy daggers, a teleporter, and a cloaking device all though I don't really want to use king of the dead black panther because his power level is pretty vague at the moment.

Just wanted to let you know that Hickman confirmed that current Panther does still wear a Vibranium suit.

Can you post a link as to where this was confirmed?

I'll see if I can find it.

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#18 Posted by RenaissanceMan (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

I asked the poster on comicbookresources.com that confirmed it, to post a link. Could take a while.

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#19 Edited by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

All right I guess to open up I will start going over why I think Black Panther can take this.

Skill

This is part of my argument may seem like I am downplaying wolverines skills admittedly, so I will say right now thats not what I am intending to do here. There is no denying that wolverine is one of the best fighters in the marvel universe. I think when it comes to training and knowledge wolverine has shown a little bit more then black panther has. However with wolverine the issue is that he doesn't always use his skill to the levels he should. Wolverine does sometimes put his skills to use however sometimes he also does not, and there are certain points in his career where wolverine has needed to have refresher courses. I will explain why that is relevant later all though first I will talk about some of the instances where Logan shows a lack of discipline.

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The above scans are from savage wolverine #7 and here wolverine talks a little bit about his skills. We see wolverine and elektra jump into a swarm of hand ninjas and we see elektra is handling them with ease where as Logan is actually having a bit of trouble. I am not uploading this because Logan is having trouble but its more so because of what wolverine says:

"Me, it takes a while to get warmed up. Truth is I Ain't much good in a fight. Not at first. Then i start taking a few hits and something' in me starts waken' up."

Basically it would seem based on these scans that wolverine relies on his healing factor when he fights. Moving on to another instance...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Now admittedly the above scans are from killable so you can argue that wolverines fear of death is playing a role in why the fight went the way it did, and this is also king of the dead T'challa a version that is not being used in this thread. With that said I am not uploading this fight because elf the way it went but because of what was said:

"Your fighting style is based on your ability to take damage. You can't win this."

Wolverine later tells bat roc that he has gotten lazy and has "forgotten some of his skills" (I won't upload the bat roc fight because I think this fight gets the point across), all though that confirms what black panther says is true.

Now the typical argument for wolverine (That I have seen) is that he chooses not to use skill on fodder because he doesn't have to so my first example might not be enough. And my second example it can be argued that the loss of healing factor and fear of death is affecting wolverines skill. However my next example wolverine has his healing factor and he is fighting a group of highly skilled fighters.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Now from the first kick we see Logan comment on the skills of these guys referring to the one as "thing with a 9th degree black belt". These guys were doing crazy things with there skills like punching wolverine in the soul and what not. However despite that we see Logan gets punched around still. And this is his response:

"you boys ain't got nothing my healing factor can't handle."

Despite fighting a group of super human, and incredibly skilled fighters, Wolverine states that he is still using his healing factor to fight these guys.

And the thing is...We know wolverine has what it takes to beat these guys if he uses his skill because he does do that later...After having a refresher course that is. Which brings me back to my point. If logan were to use his skill so frequently why would he need these refresher courses? There have been other instances besides the moments I posted (all though I think these are the best examples) such as origins as well.

My reasoning for wolverine needing refresher courses would be this:

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-muscle-memory.htm

This is one of the reasons that with many activities that involve the body’s muscles, like playing an instrument, learning appropriate technique is always stressed. You want your muscle memory to reflect the correct way to do things, not the incorrect way. Your muscle memory can actually play against you if you’ve constantly been practicing something the wrong way.

The part I quoted is the important part of the article. Just like how if a musician practices the wrong notes resulting in bad music, if a martial artist doesn't practice how to do something incorrectly they won't do it correctly and it will be harder for them to do it correctly in a fight. Wolverine doesn't always dodge attacks because he is capable of handling 90% of the stuff he faces. So I think whenever wolverine runs through gun fire and arrows and such he is practicing not dodging attacks. And sometimes this comes into his fights with other martial artists. And this is why wolverine needs his refresher courses IMO. Because he practices the incorrect types of movements and therefore needs help to fix those mistakes.

Black Panther on the other hand is always dodging attacks. Even when he had the vibranium suit he still was dodging bullets even though he didn't have to. This is he's trained his body to react that way. My thoughts on who has the advantage in skill is that I think wolverine is "more skilled" because he has better training and has more showings of knowledge however Black Panther is the "better fighter". To clarify my point isn't that wolverine doesn't know how to fight but its that his lack of discipline has made it harder for him to utilize that skill. I think Black Panther is better at using what he knows.

That part talked a lot about wolverine so I will try to talk more about black panther. I am willing to post some feats for T'challa if you want but I think you have seen a lot of them.

Defensive and offensive abilities

Wolverines adamantium claws and skeleton in combination with his healing factor give him an extremely high offence and defines which makes him such a tough street leveller to deal with. However i think the tools black panther is bringing into this fight give him a better offence and some decent defence. Wolverines claws have cut through almost everything in the marvel universe and there are very few things they can't cut through. However I believe that the vibranium suit can handle some stabs from wolverine given its unique properties:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Right to left

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As the above scan explains vibranium robs things of momentum. Wolverines claws are sharp and they may not require a lot of force to stab into things but they still require some force and all of that force will be gone when wolverine tries to stab the vibranium suit. This is why wolverines claws cannot cut through caps shield because of these vibranium properties.

With that said wolverine can cut the suit by slashing along the grain so the vibranium suit isn't full proof.

All though in this fight wolverines healing factor and adamantium skeleton aren't full proof either, at least not to black panther.

black Panthers energy daggers are intangible and pass through this ultron clones skull to disrupt the electrons within him.
black Panthers energy daggers are intangible and pass through this ultron clones skull to disrupt the electrons within him.

black Panther can do similar to wolverine. His adamantium skeleton maybe indestructible but black panthers energy daggers can phase through wolverines skull and cut his vital organs up (heart, brain, etc) which will incapacitate him. Another advantage of the energy daggers would be this:

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They can be used as range weapons

I realize 30 feet is distance wolverine can easily close but black panther himself is actually pretty fast and is probably accurate enough to his wolverines heart or brain from that distance considering he has enough accuracy to hit a propane tank with a sword causing a car to explode.

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Thrown in with the fact that wolverine doesn't always dodge attacks Black Panther could do some damage from distance before this gets into melee.

The other offensive weapon that black panther has here are his anti-metal claws:

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As the scan above states it breaks down all metals...Anti-metal has even been used to break down adamantium:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Black Panther is also a very skilled fighter who knows lots of different ways to hurt people. He knows sleep inducing pressure points, pressure points which some what affect luke cage, etc. So Black Panther will be striking wolverine in sensitive areas. I all ready explained how black panther would use energy daggers, but I think there are lots of ways he can use his energy daggers as well. Like he could potentially use his energy daggers to destroy wolverines own claws if he strikes him there. With his offence gone wolverine can't deal with black panthers defence. He can also cut areas like the cervical spine, various joints (IIRC joint bones are usually weaker then other bones), etc.

So black panther does have a few ways of putting wolverine down.

Physicals

Gonna be honest but this post is becoming a little bit long so I will just say that I think speed is the most relevant physical and I think the 2 are fairly even. However I think Black Panther is more flexible/agile. I think this scan speaks for speed...

No Caption Provided

Conclusion

I think Black Panther takes a majority because he uses his speed and skill better then wolverine does. Wolverine doesn't use his speed and skill to the best levels he can in character which also has led in the past to him needing refresher courses. And Black Panther absolutely has the means to put him down. Whether it is by using energy daggers to cut wolverines heart in half like Kaine did. Or he can cut some of wolverines smaller bones with his anti-metal claws which can do some serious damage to wolverine and can tax his healing factor. Wolverine doesn't normally have to regenerate so many broken bones.

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#20 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

OK. Here we go. First, as you specify in the OP "with healing factor" I'm assuming I'm working with a Wolverine who is still psychologically sound and unhampered by the tampering of Dr. Rot and whatnot. Otherwise, this battle is borderline unfair. Some of your comments seem to assume otherwise so I want to be sure we're clear on this.

Working on that assumption, that Wolverine is 100% whole and at his best, then without further ado;

This is part of my argument may seem like I am downplaying wolverines skills admittedly, so I will say right now thats not what I am intending to do here. There is no denying that wolverine is one of the best fighters in the marvel universe. I think when it comes to training and knowledge wolverine has shown a little bit more then black panther has. However with wolverine the issue is that he doesn't always use his skill to the levels he should. Wolverine does sometimes put his skills to use however sometimes he also does not, and there are certain points in his career where wolverine has needed to have refresher courses. I will explain why that is relevant later all though first I will talk about some of the instances where Logan shows a lack of discipline.

The whole "Wolverine relies on his healing factor in a fight" schtick are forwarded by Cornell's most recent story arc and, to a lesser degree (different twist), Wells' one story arc over in Savage. Far from being established across the board.

Regardless, looking at the whole first half of your post, I really don't see what the issue is, whether one wants to refute this as so or not, as Wolverine has his healing factor in this fight. Basically, yes, Logan is uber at fighting with his healing factor to back him, whether or not he's grown accustomed to using it as part of his fighting technique over the decades to expedite the butt whooping, or not. Good thing he can continue to do so here.

I'm OK with that. Changes nothing.

The above scans are from savage wolverine #7 and here wolverine talks a little bit about his skills. We see wolverine and elektra jump into a swarm of hand ninjas and we see elektra is handling them with ease where as Logan is actually having a bit of trouble. I am not uploading this because Logan is having trouble but its more so because of what wolverine says:

"Me, it takes a while to get warmed up. Truth is I Ain't much good in a fight. Not at first. Then i start taking a few hits and something' in me starts waken' up."

Basically it would seem based on these scans that wolverine relies on his healing factor when he fights.

Sure. And again, he has his healing factor in this fight. It's like saying the Silver Samurai relies on his sword to be effective in his fighting style. Sure. OK. Now, if he has his sword, where's the problem?

With his healing factor, in the Savage Wolverine arc you're citing, Wolverine soaked copious amounts of damage because he could (please mark those words), and took down a mystical Hulk-like near unstoppable killing machine (i.e. Shikaru, a being who b!tch slapped Elektra with ease despite all her vaunted skill) when blood lusted and with morals off - meaning he wasn't messing around (as he won't be herein).

(I just post the fight cuz I love Joe Mad's art).

I'd say his "healing factor" dependent fighting style is murderously effective. Fact is, he's a beast with ferocity, durability and skill rolled into a nice adamantium laced package.

Now admittedly the above scans are from killable so you can argue that wolverines fear of death is playing a role in why the fight went the way it did, and this is also king of the dead T'challa a version that is not being used in this thread. With that said I am not uploading this fight because elf the way it went but because of what was said:

Yes, the scans you posted are from Unkillable. An arc where Wolverine is so psychologically off kilter, that even Batroc gives him troubles (along with freaken hand ninjas). An arc where Sabretooth manhandles him (after Wolverine's absolutely decimated Creed in the last 6 of their encounters). Not sure I'd be using that as a yard stick. Obviously this is a Wolverine who's not playing with a full deck. Which is NOT the case herein.

And yes, I get what you're saying. The argument is that Wolverine's fighting style has incorporated his healing factor for numerous decades, to the point where it's become part and parcel to his fighting style. And again, even if we all want to adhere to that, it's a good thing he has said healing factor herein. There is no question as to just how effective Wolverine is at what he does with his mutant powers unhindered. You know the scan orgy I can evidence to back this as fact. But I would not take this to mean Wolverine will just let Panther hit him at will - he's not stupid and he's not going to take a blow with anti metal claws and / or energy daggers to parts of his body that might drop him.

Wolverine later tells bat roc that he has gotten lazy and has "forgotten some of his skills" (I won't upload the bat roc fight because I think this fight gets the point across), all though that confirms what black panther says is true.

OK. So another argument you're making is Wolverine needs "refresher" courses. And this fact ultimately messes with his mojo because he uses bad technique for so long, his muscle memory gets all out of wack. Nonsense. That article you posted is not relevant here. I think the idea that this makes him ultimately less of a fighter rather silly. Especially considering these 'refresher' courses not only corrected, but allowed to him to surpass. Let's look at a few of these refresher courses then.

He's had one with Shang Chi in Origins with ended thus;

Shang referring to Wolverine as "The Master". Further compounded by the beating he gave him in later years;

Not so sure Wolverine is as flawed in his technique as you make him out to be there Jash. Looks to me like the "refresher course" paid dividends. I have no problem with a warrior who's been around for over a century, and who's had his memory tampered with numerous times (and most lately by Dr. Rot) requiring these periodic "refresher courses". Fact is, the results they've evidence speak for themselves and work entirely in my favor.
He's also seen the Silver Samurai to have one of these "refresher" courses;
Which likewise ended in the student schooling the Master.
I'm not even going to address Manifest Destinty and Master Po quite yet. Pending which tangent you take, I might get to it later.
Now, again, I see where you're going with all this. You want to say that A) Wolverine relies too heavily on his healing factor when he fights, and so won't really be worrying about dodging Black Panther's attacks and B) Black Panther has energy daggers and anti-metal claws - all of which can cause considerable damage to Wolverine. As Wolverine doesn't dodge, and as Wolverine can be hurt by what Panther dishes out, Wolverine will lose this fight.
I call foul and chastise you (bad, bad Jashro!!) for over simplifying. Fact is, Wolverine has a TON of showings wherein he doesn't take damage unnecessarily. ESPECIALLY when he knows he can be dropped by said damage. Point in case, Wolverine: Japan's most wanted;
Point is, Wolverine will block or avoid shots he knows can drop him. Like he does here. Taking an energy sword through the core does not mean he'll let one pass through his head just because "he's lazy" (which is bad writing and a load of hogwash). Here's another take on how Wolverine reacts in a fight;
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6093/berserkerragedg2.jpg
And I quote; "Emotional response pattern of a berserker killer ape ... but retains highly sophisticated combat skills and is capable of complex strategic decisions within a compressed time frame. The equivalent of an Olympic gymnast doing a gold medal routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head."
But yeah, he's lazy and mostly fights with his face. Sure. Still not convinced? Here's Xavier astounded at how Logan operates, with his "muscles and mind working in perfect harmony... senses picking up every sight, every sound.”
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skill/UncannyX-Men36908Skill.jpg
So I think Wolverine's abilities need to be properly respected. For every low end comment you can post, I can find one to contradict. Along with a series of feats to back em. Cornell's arc is leading up to something. Probably trying to reconcile the brawler with the martial artist in his own way - trying to tie in the inconsistencies. But I wouldn't go type casting that arc as though it erases dozens upon dozens of other stories and showings touting Wolverine as, well, the best there is at what he does.
To conclude, Wolverine using his healing factor to his advantage means he might take a sword through his core, cuz he can;
and because it means his can disarm (literally) Silver Samurai and thus end the fight that much quicker;
What it doesn't mean he's going to let an attack that could drop him, and lose him the fight, land (like, say, energy daggers to the head) because "he's lazy" or grown sloppy and over reliant on his healing factor. And heck, given the speed with which Wolverine has recovered from head trauma, I'm not even sure energy daggers through the head would immediately drop him.
Black Panther on the other hand is always dodging attacks. Even when he had the vibranium suit he still was dodging bullets even though he didn't have to. This is he's trained his body to react that way.
No he does not "always" dodge attacks. I'm going to call you on that one big time. Didn't dodge this one;
Even though the suite would have absorbed hit, he still got tagged. Let's face it, Black Panther has thousands upon thousands of less showings than Wolverine. So consistency will definitely play in his favor. But let's not pretend the likes of Daredevil didn't punch him in the face at will;
Or Killmonger defeating him (at least twice that I know of);
Hasn't looked incredibly stellar against Sabretooth either;
Heck, even Storm got her licks in (and no, Panther was not interested in hurting her, I readily admit. However, nor could he prevent her from hurting him!);
And where did Storm learn her mad skills? Why, Wolverine of course;
Admittedly, some of these are slightly out of context. However, I'm just posting a few scans of Panther catching blows that would kill him were Wolverine to land them with adamantium claws extended. The point is, Panther is far, far from safe here, is very hittable, and this fight can easily end with one well placed clawed punch to the noggin. Neither Killmonger nor Daredevil are more skilled nor are they faster than Logan - yet both managed multiple blows to the face.
I just need to deflate the "Panther is just so untouchable" bent your post seems to over promote.
Outside of Wolverine jobbing, outside of writer induced stupidity or character preservation, Black Panther is very touchable by the likes of Wolverine. And despite the vibranium, a punch to the head can kill - and more than likely will (again, outside of plot induced stupidity).
Heck, their last and only "real" run in ended with Wolverine having Panther pinned claws to face. While Wolverine was more serious minded, and while Panther was treating it more as sport, it was nevertheless a contest that both Panther and Wolverine were aiming to win (no one fights to lose). The fact is, they were both testing one another. Problem being, Panther would have had a face full of claws if Wolverine were morals off and hadn't been distracted;
Yes the fight is inconclusive. And yes, Panther managed to dodge Wolverine rather impressively a few times. Panther's speed and skill are top tier. No doubt. But so are Wolverine's and the fact is, this fight ended with him on top. I'm betting on the bloke who soaks Hulk like blows and recovers in a single panel from having his brains completely scrambled, I'm counting on that bloke soaking what damage Panther lays down more than long enough to land that one right hook across the grain that will take Panther's face clean off.
In any case, there are a few more points I haven't addressed in full. But I'm tired and need to hit the sack. Good opening volley Jashro. Look forward to another round.
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#25 Posted by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: great way to open.This will be a CAV to watch especially by you two :)

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#26 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice openers boyz.

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#27 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

OK. Here we go. First, as you specify in the OP "with healing factor" I'm assuming I'm working with a Wolverine who is still psychologically sound and unhampered by the tampering of Dr. Rot and whatnot. Otherwise, this battle is borderline unfair. Some of your comments seem to assume otherwise so I want to be sure we're clear on this.

Working on that assumption, that Wolverine is 100% whole and at his best, then without further ado

I didn't even know the doctor rot tampering with his brain was an issue. Around the time that story line was happening wolverine was having lots of good feats like his fight with cap, his fights with sabre tooth, etc (at least thats when I heard about the dr. rot brain tampering). If the dr. rot brain tampering has made wolverine less skilled then this is pre rot wolverine.

The whole "Wolverine relies on his healing factor in a fight" schtick are forwarded by Cornell's most recent story arc and, to a lesser degree (different twist), Wells' one story arc over in Savage. Far from being established across the board.

I wouldn't say that. This is from the goodbye china town story line which takes place before the dr. rot story line:

No Caption Provided

. Despite logan being trained in 18 different styles of kung-fu he still runs through gun fire.

Regardless, looking at the whole first half of your post, I really don't see what the issue is, whether one wants to refute this as so or not, as Wolverine has his healing factor in this fight. Basically, yes, Logan is uber at fighting with his healing factor to back him, whether or not he's grown accustomed to using it as part of his fighting technique over the decades to expedite the butt whooping, or not. Good thing he can continue to do so here.

I'm OK with that. Changes nothing.

Thing is black panther can hurt wolverine in ways I don't believe he's ever been hurt before. Logan never has to worry about bones breaking because his bones are unbreakable. Anti-metal breaks down any metal instantly even adamantium. And then there are the energy daggers which can also be a problem. Wolverine tanking damage from black panther is a bad idea.

Sure. And again, he has his healing factor in this fight. It's like saying the Silver Samurai relies on his sword to be effective in his fighting style. Sure. OK. Now, if he has his sword, where's the problem?

With his healing factor, in the Savage Wolverine arc you're citing, Wolverine soaked copious amounts of damage because he could (please mark those words), and took down a mystical Hulk-like near unstoppable killing machine (i.e. Shikaru, a being who b!tch slapped Elektra with ease despite all her vaunted skill) when blood lusted and with morals off - meaning he wasn't messing around (as he won't be herein).

Wolverine lost the first fight to the shikaru.

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All though yea wolverine did soak a few hits he was still taking damage. And he actually looks like he is enjoying it (which is why he is smiling IMO), and because he tanked hits he lost this fight. Yea he wrecked him in round 2 but he still lost round one because he decided to soak hits instead and it costed him.

(I just post the fight cuz I love Joe Mad's art).

Agreed. Logans getting all the good artists recently...

I'd say his "healing factor" dependent fighting style is murderously effective. Fact is, he's a beast with ferocity, durability and skill rolled into a nice adamantium laced package.

Against some enemies it is very effective. However if he is put against someone who can do lots of damage to logan such as Black Panther is is less effective IMO.

Yes, the scans you posted are from Unkillable. An arc where Wolverine is so psychologically off kilter, that even Batroc gives him troubles (along with freaken hand ninjas). An arc where Sabretooth manhandles him (after Wolverine's absolutely decimated Creed in the last 6 of their encounters). Not sure I'd be using that as a yard stick. Obviously this is a Wolverine who's not playing with a full deck. Which is NOT the case herein.

And yes, I get what you're saying. The argument is that Wolverine's fighting style has incorporated his healing factor for numerous decades, to the point where it's become part and parcel to his fighting style. And again, even if we all want to adhere to that, it's a good thing he has said healing factor herein. There is no question as to just how effective Wolverine is at what he does with his mutant powers unhindered. You know the scan orgy I can evidence to back this as fact. But I would not take this to mean Wolverine will just let Panther hit him at will - he's not stupid and he's not going to take a blow with anti metal claws and / or energy daggers to parts of his body that might drop him.

I agree Logan isn't at his best physiologically in killable but the point is you have wolverine and other characters commenting that wolverine utilizes his healing factor as a crutch. Cornells wolverine run isn't very good but I think that part is at least consistent with Logans other showings and some of his other arcs.

I am not saying that wolverine cannot fight back. I just feel his preferred fighting style and the way he fights puts him at a disadvantage. He won't really know where black panther hits him until he gets hit though. He is fighting someone who is about equal in terms of speed and is a highly skilled fighter. He can tell himself to dodge but then he won't really be acting automatically which will put a delay in some of his dodges. This goes back to what I said about muscle memory earlier.

OK. So another argument you're making is Wolverine needs "refresher" courses. And this fact ultimately messes with his mojo because he uses bad technique for so long, his muscle memory gets all out of wack. Nonsense. That article you posted is not relevant here. I think the idea that this makes him ultimately less of a fighter rather silly. Especially considering these 'refresher' courses not only corrected, but allowed to him to surpass. Let's look at a few of these refresher courses then.

He's had one with Shang Chi in Origins with ended thus;

Shang referring to Wolverine as "The Master". Further compounded by the beating he gave him in later years;

Not so sure Wolverine is as flawed in his technique as you make him out to be there Jash. Looks to me like the "refresher course" paid dividends. I have no problem with a warrior who's been around for over a century, and who's had his memory tampered with numerous times (and most lately by Dr. Rot) requiring these periodic "refresher courses". Fact is, the results they've evidence speak for themselves and work entirely in my favor.He's also seen the Silver Samurai to have one of these "refresher" courses;Which likewise ended in the student schooling the Master.

I am not saying the refresher courses mess with his mojo. I am saying that because wolverine does use his healing factor so much he repeats this mistake so much that when he does face a threat where using his healing factor isn't enough he needs help to refresh his skill.

For example IIRC in origins wasn't that the story line where Kitty got kidnapped by sabre tooth and logan went to shang chi in order to refresh his skills and then he ended up curb stomping sabre tooth. Shang chi didn't really teach him much. They only really had one fight and shang chi won. So why would having a refresher course from someone who wolverine a better fighter then all of a sudden allow him to curb stomp sabre tooth? The way I interpret it wolverine always had what it took to beat sabre tooth all along he just wasn't using it because he was letting his rage get the better of him. Shang chi didn't really teach logan anything new. I think Logan was always a better fighter then shang he was just fighting like a berserker at that point in time IIRC.

As for him beating shang chi with bone claws at the time logans mutation was being sped up as a result of losing his adamantium. IIRC it was revealed that because Logans healing factor was fighting his adamantium all the time this meant that it was also slowing down his mutation. And a side effect of logan evolving was that he was becoming more animalistic and uncontrollable. So in wolverine 103 wolverine went to elektra for a refresher course so he wouldn't become "the beast" because it was believed that if wolverine focused on his skill he wouldn't lose himself. At the time Logan was practicing his skills and he had to use them or at else he would become more feral. I think the only difference when wolverine fought shang chi with his bone claw and when he fought him in origins was just that wolverine wasn't using his skill in origins and he was using it when he was bone claw.

Admittedly Logan had another reason to go to elektra for a refresher course rather then he forgot his skills. So for the record i am not using that as a showing of wolverine being sloppy. Just explaining why I believe wolverine was able to defeat shang chi when he was bone claw but lose in origins. In origins shang chi was fighting a wolverine who wasn't using skill but in there bone claw encounter he was fighting a wolverine who had to use his skill.

I haven't really read the issue where he needed to be trained by Harda but the scan has Logan stating "show me how to use this thing." I don't know what Harda really taught Loagn but it looks like Wolverine forgot how to use a sword. Logan was a samurai and a sword fighter before his training with Harda.

Manifest destiny was the same thing. Logan lost and then he retrained himself with master Po. But the thing is logan and Po mostly were relearning the basics rather then learning a lot of new stuff:

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"All he's really doing is reminding me of the simplest of fighting principles. Like how to balance, how to see, how to listen, and how sometimes the best way to strike someone...is to simply get out of the way."

My issue is that it seems Logan needs these refresher courses a lot and he seems to be mostly going over the basics for the most part. Why does he keep forgetting the basics if he uses them in character to the absolute best of his abilities all the time?

Which likewise ended in the student schooling the Master.I'm not even going to address Manifest Destinty and Master Po quite yet. Pending which tangent you take, I might get to it later.Now, again, I see where you're going with all this. You want to say that A) Wolverine relies too heavily on his healing factor when he fights, and so won't really be worrying about dodging Black Panther's attacks and B) Black Panther has energy daggers and anti-metal claws - all of which can cause considerable damage to Wolverine. As Wolverine doesn't dodge, and as Wolverine can be hurt by what Panther dishes out, Wolverine will lose this fight.I call foul and chastise you (bad, bad Jashro!!) for over simplifying. Fact is, Wolverine has a TON of showings wherein he doesn't take damage unnecessarily. ESPECIALLY when he knows he can be dropped by said damage. Point in case, Wolverine: Japan's most wanted;

He also has a few showings where he lost due to tanking unnecessary damage as I mentioned in this post and my last one.

Also if he tries to block black panthers anti-metal claws with his claws like he did to Hardas son he will lose his claws. If he tries to block energy daggers they will pass through his adamantium bones and hit his insides like they did against the ultron above. So Black panther also has an offensive advantage here.

Point is, Wolverine will block or avoid shots he knows can drop him. Like he does here. Taking an energy sword through the core does not mean he'll let one pass through his head just because "he's lazy" (which is bad writing and a load of hogwash). Here's another take on how Wolverine reacts in a fight;And I quote; "Emotional response pattern of a berserker killer ape ... but retains highly sophisticated combat skills and is capable of complex strategic decisions within a compressed time frame. The equivalent of an Olympic gymnast doing a gold medal routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head."

But yeah, he's lazy and mostly fights with his face. Sure. Still not convinced? Here's Xavier astounded at how Logan operates, with his "muscles and mind working in perfect harmony... senses picking up every sight, every sound.”So I think Wolverine's abilities need to be properly respected. For every low end comment you can post, I can find one to contradict.

pretty impressive. All though I am not saying logan is dumb. He's not. I am just saying the preferred fighting style logan likes to use won't be effective against black panther. And because he doesn't always dodge as much as Black Panther does this increases black panthers chances of landing a serious blow.

Cornell's arc is leading up to something. Probably trying to reconcile the brawler with the martial artist in his own way - trying to tie in the inconsistencies. But I wouldn't go type casting that arc as though it erases dozens upon dozens of other stories and showings touting Wolverine as, well, the best there is at what he does.To conclude, Wolverine using his healing factor to his advantage means he might take a sword through his core, cuz he can;and because it means his can disarm (literally) Silver Samurai and thus end the fight that much quicker;What it doesn't mean he's going to let an attack that could drop him, and lose him the fight, land (like, say, energy daggers to the head) because "he's lazy" or grown sloppy and over reliant on his healing factor. And heck, given the speed with which Wolverine has recovered from head trauma, I'm not even sure energy daggers through the head would immediately drop him.

I agree Conrells arc is probably leading up to something. I am not using that showing alone though to really support what I am saying. its just in this fight Logans damage soak isn't something that he can rely on nearly as much as other fights.

No he does not "always" dodge attacks. I'm going to call you on that one big time. Didn't dodge this one;

I don't think Black Panther tanked this attack willingly. I think he just told killmonger why his knife wouldn't stab him. I think Black Panther legitimacy couldn't dodge that attack. Killmonger has studied the way black panther fights so he has always had a good track record against black panther. If it were in character for black panther to tank attacks why would he be criticizing wolverine in killable for tanking attacks?

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Despite the fact that he doesn't need to dodge white wolfs attacks he is still dodging bullets despite the fact the vibranium suit is bullet proof. He doesn't even feel the impact of bullets in the suit yet he is still dodging. This isn't the only time he's done it either. He dodges a lot more then he tanks.

Even though the suite would have absorbed hit, he still got tagged. Let's face it, Black Panther has thousands upon thousands of less showings than Wolverine. So consistency will definitely play in his favor. But let's not pretend the likes of Daredevil didn't punch him in the face at will;

SO YOU REALLY WANT 2 BRING IN DAREDEVIL IN2 DIS DO U?!?!?

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All though in all seriousness I don't see why black panthers fight with daredevil is a low showing. Daredevil isn't that far behind either black panther or daredevil skill wise so its not impossible for him to do well against them. And that was black panther before he had all of his tech so it was straight up hand to hand combat. Additionally there have been arguments that black panther could have been holding back. Some people argue that Black Panther was just trying to talk daredevil down and at the end of the fight when daredevil asks what black panther will do he states "Are you going to stop me" rather then "are you going to try and stop me."

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And additionally this isn't the only fight the 2 have had. There is another fight where black panther was under mind masters control and they were both holding back. Black Panther is saying "of course i am holding back why do you think you are still alive", and then you see daredevil think to himself that fighting black panther is a lot like fighting namer where raw power isn't the answer.

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And Garth Ennis aside daredevil has done pretty well against wolverine too in enemy of the state. If you limited wolverine and black panther to pure skill daredevil would put up a good fight against either and he would take a few wins as well. Neither would have an easy time with daredevil.

Or Killmonger defeating him (at least twice that I know of);

Killmonger has studied the way black panther fights which gives him an advantage when they fight. So Black Panther losing to killmonger isn't a big deal.

Hasn't looked incredibly stellar against Sabretooth either;

The first scan isn't sabre tooth but a life model decoy and black panther won that fight:

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The second set of scans are from house of M and once again black panther won:

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They had another fight in Leobs run where sabre tooth had the upper hand admittedly all though it was inconclusive and black panther told wolverine he never needed help.

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My point is that fight wasn't conclusive and Black panther said it wasn't necessary. Iron man had black panther in the exact same position sabre tooth did and Black panther managed to escape. Its possible he could have escaped without wolverines interference.

Heck, even Storm got her licks in (and no, Panther was not interested in hurting her, I readily admit. However, nor could he prevent her from hurting him!);

This is a low showing all though Black Panther won't be holding back against wolverine like he was against storm.

And where did Storm learn her mad skills? Why, Wolverine of course;

She has also learned from black panther as well....

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Admittedly, some of these are slightly out of context. However, I'm just posting a few scans of Panther catching blows that would kill him were Wolverine to land them with adamantium claws extended. The point is, Panther is far, far from safe here, is very hittable, and this fight can easily end with one well placed clawed punch to the noggin. Neither Killmonger nor Daredevil are more skilled nor are they faster than Logan - yet both managed multiple blows to the face.I just need to deflate the "Panther is just so untouchable" bent your post seems to over promote.

i never said black panther was untouchable. I just feel like Wolverines preferred fighting style makes him more touchable then Black Panther. Killmonger as I mentioned has studied black panthers fighting style which is why he can fight Black Panther so effectively. And daredevil being slower then wolverine is debatable. I haven't seen wolverine deflect bullet in the same manner as daredevil:

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Not saying its impossible that wolverine can tag black panther but I don't think black panther getting tagged by those guys really proves that wolverine can also do it.

The underlined part isn't true. one punch to the noggin isn't going to end this fight due to the vibranium suit. As I mentioned earlier its unique properties allow it to absorb momentum. Logan isn't going to have the necessary force required to cut the suit due to its properties. I don't believe wolverine has cut through vibranium where as we have seen caps shield rob Logans claws of its momentum as well. If Lofgan wants to hurt black panther he has to slash him across the grain.

Outside of Wolverine jobbing, outside of writer induced stupidity or character preservation, Black Panther is very touchable by the likes of Wolverine. And despite the vibranium, a punch to the head can kill - and more than likely will (again, outside of plot induced stupidity).Heck, their last and only "real" run in ended with Wolverine having Panther pinned claws to face. While Wolverine was more serious minded, and while Panther was treating it more as sport, it was nevertheless a contest that both Panther and Wolverine were aiming to win (no one fights to lose). The fact is, they were both testing one another. Problem being, Panther would have had a face full of claws if Wolverine were morals off and hadn't been distracted;

This was also decades ago before black panther had his energy daggers, vibranium suit, and anti-metal claws. He had no way of really fighting wolverine back then. If Black Panther didn't have his energy daggers or anti-metal claws he will lose to wolverine. But he has them here.

Yes the fight is inconclusive. And yes, Panther managed to dodge Wolverine rather impressively a few times. Panther's speed and skill are top tier. No doubt. But so are Wolverine's and the fact is, this fight ended with him on top. I'm betting on the bloke who soaks Hulk like blows and recovers in a single panel from having his brains completely scrambled, I'm counting on that bloke soaking what damage Panther lays down more than long enough to land that one right hook across the grain that will take Panther's face clean off.In any case, there are a few more points I haven't addressed in full. But I'm tired and need to hit the sack. Good opening volley Jashro. Look forward to another round.

Hulk deals a different form of damage then black panther and I question how much damage he can regenerate from Black Panther. Its not even just the energy daggers cutting his organs apart but also the anti-metal claws cutting his bones. Logan can and has been incapacitated by brain damage in the past (thats how world war hulk knocked him out IIRC), granted yea hulk is a million times stronger then black panther but hulk doesn't have the means to do a direct attack on the brain unlike black panther. Has wolverine ever regenerated from having his brain cut in half? Even if he has he will also be regenerating from broken bones as well. That amount of damage will tax wolverines healing factor. Black Panther can not only do severe damage but he will also be making his hits count.

Also I also want to bring up concerning the energy daggers even if wolverine does decide to dodge them it won't be easy if Black Panther fires them in a spray like has been posted. That is like 20 projectiles wolverine will have to dodge at one time from someone of about equal speed (meaning it will be harder for wolverine to keep track of the aim). So dodging the energy daggers won't be simple.

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#28 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been a sweet debate so far. Great job guys.

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#29 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been a sweet debate so far. Great job guys.

SO YOU REALLY WANT 2 BRING IN DAREDEVIL IN2 DIS DO U?!?!?................... :DDD

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#31 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@wolverine08 said:

This has been a sweet debate so far. Great job guys.

SO YOU REALLY WANT 2 BRING IN DAREDEVIL IN2 DIS DO U?!?!?................... :DDD

NEVER!

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#32 Edited by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@wolverine08 said:

This has been a sweet debate so far. Great job guys.

SO YOU REALLY WANT 2 BRING IN DAREDEVIL IN2 DIS DO U?!?!?................... :DDD

NEVER!

I would honestly expect such sementatics from @god_spawn or myself tbh. Seem jashro44 is pulling out all the stops on this :)

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#33 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

^lol

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#38 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Call me "bub"... You still Jobbing.

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Yeah, I think this scan is an accurate depiction of what happened between Monsterstomp and Wolverine08........

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#39 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Sorry for the delay. Gone better part of the week and all weekend. Will try to get a response up tomorrow night.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Sorry for the delay. Gone better part of the week and all weekend. Will try to get a response up tomorrow night.

No problem and take your time there is no rush. I will be starting school tomorrow and I have a few projects I have to work on so I probably wont be able to respond for some time.

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#41 Posted by RenaissanceMan (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Sorry for the delay. Gone better part of the week and all weekend. Will try to get a response up tomorrow night.

No problem and take your time there is no rush. I will be starting school tomorrow and I have a few projects I have to work on so I probably wont be able to respond for some time.

I'm still tracking the kid down who has the link that says BP still wears vibranium but he's taking forever. He did mention that Hickman won't do too much in revealing that he still wears it because it provides him more flexibility when writing the character. *shrugs*

I'll let you know if I get it.

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#42 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii: Are you still interested?

Yeah ... I just burned out a little on the comic debating thang lately. Started a new job, takes a lot of energy and time (working 50-60hrs a week for now). I'll get back to it once the workload cools off a bit. Give me another month or so(ish).

Sorry for the delay.

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#45 Edited by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii: Are you still interested?

Yeah ... I just burned out a little on the comic debating thang lately. Started a new job, takes a lot of energy and time (working 50-60hrs a week for now). I'll get back to it once the workload cools off a bit. Give me another month or so(ish).

Sorry for the delay.

All right no problem. I was just checking. Also best of luck on the new job.

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#46 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii: Are you still interested?

Yeah ... I just burned out a little on the comic debating thang lately. Started a new job, takes a lot of energy and time (working 50-60hrs a week for now). I'll get back to it once the workload cools off a bit. Give me another month or so(ish).

Sorry for the delay.

All right no problem. I was just checking. Also best of luck on the new job.

Thanks

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#47 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Whirlwind_33 (1618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@whirlwind_33: Thanks all though I don't think we will be finishing this.

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#50 Posted by Whirlwind_33 (1618 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Ah Damn! It was getting so good too. I understand why though. It was great while it lasted, so I'll give it another read. Again, great job from the both of you.