CaV: JacenSolo77 (Kyle Katarn) vs Meatpants (Qui-Gon Jinn)

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ArkhamAsylum3

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#1  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3
No Caption Provided

CaV Debate Rules:

  • As per usual the debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron which shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone.
  • You cannot start any flame wars of your own. The debate is between JS77 and MP.
  • Do not interfere with the debate.
  • The winner of the debate will be decided by a public vote.
  • Vote for who you think debated better not which character you think would win.

Actual Fight Rules:

  • Both combatants are in their respective primes.
  • Both are fighting to the death.
  • Win by death, incap or KO.
  • No prep or prior knowledge for either.

Location:

  • The Emperor's Throne Room in ROTJ.

@meatpants and @jacensolo77 does this look alright?

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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Nice.

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RealistBigotry

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Interesting.

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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RedHeathen

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Thx for the tag.

T4V

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TheVivas

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#6  Edited By TheVivas

Huh. Looks like a one-sided fight but curious to see how this is debated.

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CuckedCurry

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Qui-Gon dies

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deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be

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Can’t wait to see this @jacensolo77 is an excellent debater.

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be

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@jacensolo77: I really liked your argument in favour of caedus in the “darth maul and count dooku vs caedus” thread.

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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@mastercilghal: Thanks bro, that's probably my finest debating post to date.

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deactivated-5d1a45e3e76be

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@jacensolo77: agreed. Btw, I’m working on a respect thread for cilghal at the moment , I’ll let you know as soon as it’s ready. Good luck with the debate.

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xolthol

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Interresting fight. TAEP and T4V

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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In-sidiousvader

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@arkhamasylum3: Bruh, all jokes and bias aside. The Emperors throne room lol? like thats a small arena and we know how Qui-gon fairs in Small arenas LMFAO

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ArkhamAsylum3

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#17  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3

@in-sidiousvader: If either contestant wants the arena changed I'm open to do so. Until then it's not my place to change the arena and both contestants have agreed to it.

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In-sidiousvader

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@arkhamasylum3: Fair enough, I just felt like it would hinder jinn, but if no one else feels this way, then my apologies

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jt_gh

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@arkhamasylum3: Bruh, all jokes and bias aside. The Emperors throne room lol? like thats a small arena and we know how Qui-gon fairs in Small arenas LMFAO

I think, (admittedly not knowing this for certain), that the 'throne room' encompasses the whole area of the fight in ROTJ. So the catwalk Luke hopped up on, the steps area, the place near where the Emperor got shafted. It's a relatively 'open' space compared to the final area of Jinn vs Maul.

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Meatpants

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Jinn being weaker in confined spaces is a misconception, probably thrown around a lot by Youtube debaters honestly. I see no evidence of it.

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Greysentinel365

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#21  Edited By Greysentinel365

@meatpants:The misconception comes from here

Beyond the gates was the incredibly deep generator core, where waste products from the refining process were destroyed by high energy particle coils.

The relatively confined area would favour Maul's fighting style, making it incredibly difficult for the Jedi to counter him.

Credit: The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #21

For some reason people took this as Jinn being weak in confined areas. When it states the opposite, Qui-Gon and Kenobi were fighting Maul at a disadvantage.

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Meatpants

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@greysentinel365

Thanks, I wasn't aware that quote existed. On that point though, we kind of have a contradiction from a higher source of canon, the novelisation:

With quick, hard strokes of his [Qui-Gon's] lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear.

--TPM Novelisation

Thoughts?

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Greysentinel365

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@meatpants: That quote says nothing about the space. It just says Qui-Gon engaged him at close range. Which he can do in any space.

There's no contradiction.

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Meatpants

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#24  Edited By Meatpants

@greysentinel365: It's a lot easier to engage in close-quarters combat when you're in a confined area; and I seriously doubt at least Qui-Gon was only using this tactic during the last part of the fight. Anyway, these are semantics, the main point is that Qui-Gon's style is pretty deadly, and there's no reason to believe that he'd be hard shackled in confined areas, despite being a master of Makashi (and probably most other forms) and one of the best pure swordsmen in the Order's history.

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CuckedCurry

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@meatpants: where do you get all this nonsense from??? master of Makashi?

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Meatpants

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@cuckedcurry:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Duh. Plus he's sparred with Dooku thousands of times.

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CuckedCurry

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Meatpants

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CuckedCurry

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@meatpants: ROTS novel where Dooku talks about Ataru. Do you think Dooku would slate talk Qui-Gon if he had Mastered Makashi?

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Meatpants

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#30  Edited By Meatpants

@cuckedcurry:

Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics.

How is that slating Qui-Gon? Anyway, this doesn't prove that Jinn didn't master/have knowledge of other forms, it just notes that Jinn's primary style was built on Ataru.

Enough trolling please.

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CuckedCurry

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@meatpants: It doesn’t disprove that Qui-Gon knows multiple fighting disciplines, but it does disprove that Qui-Gon mastered Makashi because if he had, Dooku would have made note of his prowess with the Form. Qui-Gon might know elements of the Form, but nothing indicates that he mastered it like you claim. Jinn is sub Fisto for a reason my child

Next

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Meatpants

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#32  Edited By Meatpants

@cuckedcurry: he's saying he knows all the weaknesses of Ataru because Jinn's primary style was Ataru. The other OOU quote still holds. Oh, plus the fact that Jinn barely/doesn't use acrobatics in his duels. So yah.

Heck, it could be talking about young Qui-Gon. You're just arguing bullcrap.

Cya.

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CuckedCurry

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#33  Edited By CuckedCurry

@meatpants: Boi Qui-Gon didn’t use acrobatics because he was getting old, not because he was using Makashi in sync with Ataru :/ if he was using a Makashi/Ataru hybrid how would Dooku know every weakness of the Ataru form exclusively? Jinn has not mastered Makashi at all because if he did every piece of text that has him in would make note that he did. Jinn is sub Fisto for a reason

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Meatpants

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@cuckedcurry: i expected a way better argument from a troll honestly, bye.

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CuckedCurry

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Meatpants

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@meatpants: It doesn’t disprove that Qui-Gon knows multiple fighting disciplines, but it does disprove that Qui-Gon mastered Makashi because if he had, Dooku would have made note of his prowess with the Form. Qui-Gon might know elements of the Form, but nothing indicates that he mastered it like you claim. Jinn is sub Fisto for a reason my child

Next

Okay, so, your argument is that because Dooku doesn't note that Jinn mastered Makashi when he's reflecting on the weaknesses of Ataru, it means Qui-Gon didn't master Makashi? LOL

@meatpants: Boi Qui-Gon didn’t use acrobatics because he was getting old, not because he was using Makashi in sync with Ataru :/ if he was using a Makashi/Ataru hybrid how would Dooku know every weakness of the Ataru form exclusively? Jinn has not mastered Makashi at all because if he did every piece of text that has him in would make note that he did. Jinn is sub Fisto for a reason

Next

Do you have any evidence that Jinn didn't use acrobatics because he was getting old? Or is that an inference?

Dooku's talking about Ataru, that's it. If you spar someone who's primary form is Ataru thousands of times, you're gonna end up learning pretty much everything about Ataru, just like how Qui-Gon would have learned quite a lot about Makashi.

Jinn's style is based on Ataru, therefore one would say his form is Ataru. That doesn't mean he's using pure Ataru. Dooku wasn't using pure Makashi, Yoda wasn't using pure Ataru, Anakin wasn't using pure Djem So etc. So what if Jinn doesn't use a lot of Makashi in his style? That doesn't mean he never mastered it lol.

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ComicGirl21

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Kyle seems a bit too much. Defeating VotJ amped Desann who wrecked post RotJ Luke puts him above RotJ Vader level. Even if we lowball and argue thats not the case its still clearly the same tier. Qui Gon is out of his league here.

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Meatpants

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CuckedCurry

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Holy guacamole that’s some Aurra Sing level of bitter. Speaking of Aurra Sing, Jinn’s mastery of Makashi didn’t fare too well against her :(

Anayway, yes I’m using that as my argument, because your argument is that Jinn has m a s t e r e d Makashi. How do you know he’s mastered Makashi? The OOU source you provided is an inaccurate source seeing how there’s n o mention of Jinn ever mastering Makashi in universe. All evidence suggests that he had mastered Ataru exclusively. Legit, if he had mastered Makashi as well as Ataru how come he’s sub Fisto, who’s a Shii-Cho master??

Boi are u being serious?? Of course Jinn didn’t use acrobatics because of his age. His stamina’s an issue at the best of times nevermind if he were to do acrobatics.

You see, we know that Dooku, Anakin and Yoda aren’t pure to their forms, because there’s evidence supporting that. There’s nothing supporting Jinn uses anything other than pure Ataru. TPM Kenobi never makes note of Makashi, like I’m pretty sure there’s a source stating that he’d never seen Makashi before facing Dooku in AOTC

Step up wakanda

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Meatpants

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#40  Edited By Meatpants

@cuckedcurry said:

Holy guacamole that’s some Aurra Sing level of bitter. Speaking of Aurra Sing, Jinn’s mastery of Makashi didn’t fare too well against her :(

Anayway, yes I’m using that as my argument, because your argument is that Jinn has m a s t e r e d Makashi. How do you know he’s mastered Makashi? The OOU source you provided is an inaccurate source seeing how there’s n o mention of Jinn ever mastering Makashi in universe. All evidence suggests that he had mastered Ataru exclusively. Legit, if he had mastered Makashi as well as Ataru how come he’s sub Fisto, who’s a Shii-Cho master??

Boi are u being serious?? Of course Jinn didn’t use acrobatics because of his age. His stamina’s an issue at the best of times nevermind if he were to do acrobatics.

You see, we know that Dooku, Anakin and Yoda aren’t pure to their forms, because there’s evidence supporting that. There’s nothing supporting Jinn uses anything other than pure Ataru. TPM Kenobi never makes note of Makashi, like I’m pretty sure there’s a source stating that he’d never seen Makashi before facing Dooku in AOTC

Step up wakanda

Referencing non-canon fights is pretty useless, nice try. Even then, Sing runs with her tail between her legs after Jinn joins the fight.

Huh? This source is wrong because no other source mentions it, yet no source contradicts it? LOL

Ah, so then Dooku must be thinking of a young Qui-Gon, i.e. not the one we see in TPM. Again, we have an OOU source telling us he mastered Makashi, and there's no contradictions to this. Qui-Gon must be dam good at pure Ataru to be recognised as one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order.

Kenobi would obviously have seen Makashi because all Jedi are introduced to the very basics of every form lol. Nice try.

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CuckedCurry

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Later my child

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Meatpants

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CuckedCurry

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?

Bulging eyes emoji

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Meatpants

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Love you daddy

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Meatpants

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No Caption Provided

Plagueis came to an abrupt halt. "Worse news yet. I have met Qui-Gon, and he is nothing like some of the others Dooku trained."

--Darth Plagueis

The case for Qui-Gon is a difficult one, though not entirely impossible to articulate. His status in the SW debating community ranges wildly; from being below mid-range Jedi like Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos to slightly above the B-team. It is however my aim in this debate to establish Qui-Gon Jinn as a duelist well above the likes of Ki-Adi Mundi or the B-team; in fact, he is approaching parity with the likes of Darth Maul and RotS Kenobi. Jinn’s duels against Maul in TPM establish the main scaling from which other lines of evidence can be used to bolster and reinforce the position that Jinn is not so far off Maul as is generally believed in the debating community. Jinn is approaching Darth Maul’s power in the Force, and his technical skill was almost unparalleled in the Jedi Order, known as one of the best pure swordsmen in its history, apprenticed to Dooku himself. In short, Qui-Gon’s power in the Force and technical skill would be too much for Kyle Katarn. Although a master swordsman in his own right, Katarn has never demonstrated command of the Force or skill on par with that of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Qui-Gon and Maul: A small analysis

It is perhaps ironic that the greatest source of feats for Jinn has conversely been used to lowball him incredibly. It has usually been the practice of the debating community to lean more on the second duel on Naboo to gauge the performance dynamic of these two individuals. This is, I believe, the incorrect approach. The duel on Tatooine serves as the best example of how a fight on neutral ground between the two would occur, and thus that duel will serve as the primary area of study, not the other way around.

In the movie, Qui-Gon engages Darth Maul for close to 40 seconds. For most of that time, the two were fighting on equal terms, which is confirmed across a variety of sources. Reflecting on the fight, Maul notes:

“Then, just when Qui-Gon’s stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul’s favor, the incomprehensible had occurred: Qui-Gon had fled.”

--End Game

This infers that the fight had been going evenly until Qui-Gon’s stamina flagged in the last moments of the fight. The fact that Jinn matched Maul for most of the duel is corroborated further in both End Game; Episode I Journal: Darth Maul and Wrath of Darth Maul:

“He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own.”

--End Game

“He meets my ferocity with his own.”

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul drew from the dark side of the Force and began to move faster, increasing the speed of his lunges along with his footwork. The Jedi kept up with Maul […]

--Wrath of Darth Maul

This is further evidenced in the TPM Novelisation:

The combatants surged back and forth across the flats […]

--TPM Novelisation

So far, we can conclude that:

(1) The fight tipped in Maul’s favor only as Jinn began to fatigue, meaning Jinn was fighting on equal terms with Maul for most of the fight;

(2) Qui-Gon is described as “matching” Maul and “meeting” his ferocity;

(3) Despite Maul increasing his speed and footwork, Jinn “kept up with Maul”;

(4) The combatants “surged back and forth” indicating that Jinn was pressuring Maul and further supporting the notion that they were fighting evenly.

Thus, it is quite clear that for the duration of the duel, Jinn fought evenly against Maul. As Maul himself notes in End Game, the fight was only tipping in Maul’s favor when Qui-Gon managed to jump onto the ship. Therefore Qui-Gon was matching Maul for almost 40 seconds. Other factors from the duel also need to be considered.

I. STRENGTH

Jinn’s matches Maul’s strength during the duel:

“He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own.”

--End Game

And in Episode I Journal: Darth Maul:

“Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength.”

And even after Jinn’s stamina starts flagging, Maul still finds his strength impressive:

Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

This means that Jinn is capable of augmenting his strength to that of Maul’s level. In fact, we’re told that by the time of TPM, Jinn’s strength wasn’t as it once was:

Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish.

--TPM Novelisation

This could mean that, in years past, Jinn’s strength was potentially greater than Maul’s, another indication that Jinn was comparable to Maul in Force power; remembering that Jinn matched Maul’s strength until his stamina began to flag due to age.

II. MAUL’S LEG INJURY

It’s necessary to preemptively nip this response in the bud. A common rebuttal is that Maul’s leg injury was a hindrance. I see no real evidence that the injury was significant, and the sources even confirm that Maul draws off the pain from his wound to amp himself:

It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.

This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

This is directly confirmed in Wrath of Darth Maul as well:

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi.

--Wrath of Darth Maul

Furthermore, despite the wound, Maul believes his footwork has never been better:

I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Yet despite this, Jinn matches it:

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike.

--Ibid.

I see no evidence that the leg injury really did hinder Darth Maul, and in fact it could be argued that it increased his combative ability, as he’s directly confirmed to draw from it.

III. FORCE POWER

Jinn was a powerful Force user, almost as powerful as Darth Maul in fact.

No Caption Provided

--Fact Files #35

Qui-Gon had an “extremely high” midi-chlorian rate. This was evidently shown when Dooku watched a young initiate Qui-Gon come first place in a dueling tournament among his peers and selected him as his apprentice. There’s no indication in the sources that Jinn is noticeably less powerful than Maul, and this is best showcased through the very starting section of the duel on Tatooine. Despite Maul’s attempt at a surprise attack, Qui-Gon senses and blocks it just in time. Maul’s reaction is quite revealing:

The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

As the boy ran for the Queen's ship. Maul lashed out at the Jedi again and again, but the Jedi blocked each blow. Maul was suddenly aware that the Jedi seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew.

--Wrath of Darth Maul

Qui-Gon’s shrewd readiness had almost taken Maul off his guard.

--End Game

Jinn was anticipating Maul’s attacks before Maul even knew what they were. We can surmise that only someone relatively close to Maul in the Force would be capable of doing this for up to 40 seconds, matching him equally. Someone who was noticeably weaker in the Force would not be capable of replicating such a feat, much less predicting Maul’s movements before Maul even knew them. On top of that, in the Darth Maul Journal, Sidious himself calls Qui-Gon a “powerful warrior”, and even Plagueis was able to sense Jinn’s power. After meeting him, he later finds out that Jinn had been sent to deal with the Trade Federation blockade on Naboo:

Plagueis came to an abrupt halt. "Worse news yet. I have met Qui-Gon, and he is nothing like some of the others Dooku trained."

--Darth Plagueis

Note that Plagueis halts “abruptly” after hearing Qui-Gon’s name. After Sidious explains that Jinn and Kenobi would be no match for thousands of battle droids, Plagueis replies:

"Qui-Gon will evade detection by the droids and wreak slow but inevitable havoc on the flagship."

--Darth Plagueis

Plagueis implies that Jinn alone would be capable of single-handedly crippling the federation flagship. Note that he has only met Qui-Gon once, and only briefly, yet had that much an effect on him. From just meeting Jinn, he could sense that Jinn was powerful enough to contend with thousands of battle droids virtually by himself.

The fact that Jinn can predict an all-out Maul’s movements before Maul even knows them for over half a minute whilst fighting equally with him, along with being considered “powerful” by Sidious and a singular threat to thousands of battle droids by Plagueis paints the picture that if Jinn was weaker in the Force than Maul, it wasn’t by very much.

IV. OTHER FACTORS

An important factor that is usually ignored is that Qui-Gon was ambushed and dropped into the fight cold. He had no way of knowing that he would be engaging in a no-quarters duel with the first Sith seen in 1000 years. Maul even admits that he planned his surprise attack to gain every advantage:

Intent on availing himself of every advantage, Maul had waited for Qui-Gon to set out on foot for the gleaming ship before launching his surprise attack. Qui-Gon and a human slave boy had hurried across the oven-like wastes while Maul watched from the padded comfort of the speeder’s seat.

--End Game

In a neutral setting, Jinn would have more time to mentally prepare, and wouldn’t be thrown into a fight cold against an all-out, mentally prepared opponent.

Maul was also bleeding in his mouth at the end of the duel:

I feel something trickle into my mouth: blood.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul tasted sand in his mouth. And blood.

--Wrath of Darth Maul

This would mean Jinn delivered at least one physical hit against Maul during the duel that was strong enough to cause bleeding. In addition, Maul himself notes that Jinn’s lightsaber “several times comes closer than I like.” His face was also “streaked in sweat” (TPM Novelisation), and all the evidence, including from Maul’s own POV, indicates that he was giving the fight his all, and not holding back.

Despite Jinn’s flagging stamina near the end of the duel, Maul maintains that his strength is still impressive:

Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Qui-Gon had quieted his mind and brought his imposing might to bear against Maul’s agility.

--End Game

It is true that Qui-Gon was getting old, and his natural fitness was suffering; though this is commonly misinterpreted and applied across any opponent in a theoretical debate. Stamina was only important against Darth Maul because Jinn was fighting someone who forced him to put his skills to the absolute limit. This again reinforces the idea that Jinn is relatively close to Maul in power but tires out quicker because his age requires him to push more Force reserves into physical augmentation. Even then, Darth Sidious remarks that Jinn’s stamina against Maul on Naboo was surprising:

I suspect he surprised Maul with his stamina.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

This is a noteworthy concession from Darth Sidious, and he even gloats about Jinn’s defeat:

This was my victory as much as Lord Maul's, for it was thanks to my teaching, my training, that he was able to defeat the great Qui-Gon Jinn.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Sidious clearly says this as if it’s an achievement and refers to Jinn as “the great Qui-Gon Jinn”.

Even when Maul is reporting to Sidious, he implies that he was going to defeat Jinn because he began to tire, not because he was outright noticeably better:

"You feel you would have defeated this Jedi?" he asks.

"Yes, Master. I felt him tire. I can defeat him."

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

What’s more, when Plagueis hears that Maul had fought Jinn, his immediate thoughts are concern over whether Maul survived:

Despite a brief confrontation with Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi Master and his party had managed a second successful escape. The Zabrak hadn't been killed, as Plagueis had initially feared […]

--Darth Plagueis

Note that Plagueis has met Jinn, and sensed his power, and has also watched Maul train with his saberstaff; yet despite only sensing Jinn’s power, his immediate fear is that Maul was killed in the encounter.

What’s also noteworthy, is Maul’s opinions of Jinn before and after their first encounter. When he reflects on how the fight went, he notes:

Instead, in his eagerness to face off at last with a celebrated Jedi lightsaber Master, he had leapt into action …

--End Game

So either Maul knew of Jinn’s reputation as a swordsman beforehand, or concludes as such after fighting him. Either way, this is noteworthy. Google’s definition of “celebrated” is:

greatly admired; renowned.

What’s more:

After all the droids, assassins, gangsters, and soldiers he had vanquished, finally a worthy opponent.

[…]

Many a being had run from Maul, but never a worthy one.

--End Game

He calls Jinn a worthy opponent on two more occasions in the same source. There’s even more:

But he is graceful, this Jedi.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

I have been surprised at his skill […]

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

He is a large man with impressive strength.

--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

ANALYSIS CONCLUSION

From the above analysis, these conclusions can be made:

1. Qui-Gon fights evenly with Maul (back and forth) for close to 40 seconds, with his stamina beginning to flag only towards the last moments of the duel, when he escapes;

2. Maul is going all-out from the very start (no-quarters);

3. Qui-Gon augments his strength to match Maul’s augmented strength, a notable strength feat;

4. Maul’s leg injury is negligible, and he draws from the pain to amp himself anyway;

5. Qui-Gon is extremely powerful in the Force, enough to be taken on as Dooku’s apprentice; for Sidious to regard him as a “powerful warrior” and as “the great Qui-Gon Jinn.”; for Plagueis to believe he could single-handedly cripple the Trade Federation flagship; and for Jinn to fight evenly with Maul for over half a minute and predict his movements before Maul even knows them (only slowing down in the last moments because of his age);

6. Maul availed himself of maximum advantage for the surprise attack, and Qui-Gon was dropped into the fight cold, whilst Maul was mentally prepared for facing a Jedi in a lightsaber duel;

7. Jinn hit Maul hard enough that Maul was bleeding;

8. Sidious notes that Jinn’s stamina against Maul would have been surprising to his apprentice;

9. Maul praises Jinn heavily, “confessing” him as a “challenge”, a “worthy opponent”, surprised at his skill, having impressive strength etc.

10. Plagueis, having only met Qui-Gon once, fears that Jinn killed Maul in their encounter, despite having watched Maul’s own skills with the saberstaff. This is a huge point and gives credit that both had comparable power in the Force.

From these points, I think it’s safe to conclude that Qui-Gon was almost as powerful in the Force as Darth Maul, and on neutral ground where Jinn isn’t surprise attacked and dropped in cold, he could last well over a minute against Maul before tiring out. I have left out analysis of the Naboo duel for the sake of keeping this post relatively short, but I am more than happy to address it if needed.

PART 2 - SCALING AND TECHNICAL SKILL

In the Outlander comic series, Ki-Adi Mundi is sent by the Jedi Council to track down and potentially confront Sharad Hett, a legendary former Jedi living on Tatooine. In the story, Yoda tells Mundi that "of all living Jedi, have you only the skills to defeat Sharad Hett."

No Caption Provided

What's more, when Mundi finds Sharad Hett, Hett wonders why Qui-Gon Jinn wasn't sent to confront him, "I was wondering why they sent you ... instead of him." This implies that Jinn was more suited to facing down a dark side Hett, and therefore > Mundi; though with Yoda implying that Mundi was > anyone else on the council (except Yoda and Windu obviously) in terms of skill needed to bring down Hett, this implicitly places Jinn as second only to Windu and Yoda. Sharad Hett was one of the greatest living Jedi, and considered legendary on many worlds, and after his exile, he had 18 years of growth. His powers were described as "terrifying", and Jinn therefore receives this accolade as well.

It wouldn't be too far fetched, then, to regard Qui-Gon as second only to Yoda, Windu and Dooku by TPM. Not only is he implied to be more powerful and skilled than Mundi, but there are glimpses elsewhere of his skill. Although he has a plethora of quotes about his swordsmanship, I will highlight the important ones:

Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi Order.

--TPM Novelisation

Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards [...]

--New Essential Guide to Characters

Note that he would be considered a master duelist by anyone's standards. This makes sense, as Sidious seems to regard him unusually high, as did Plagueis. From these, we can infer that he's among the best of the best in dueling. Obi-Wan Kenobi by the time of TPM had defeated Jedi Master Plo Koon in a sparring match, where Koon concedes defeat. This already places Qui-Gon among the upper tiers of the Jedi Council. His lightsaber style is also interesting. Based off Ataru, he is said to have mastered Dooku's classical fighting techniques (Makashi), and his style is only slightly less deadly than Windu's Vaapad:

His [Windu's] fighting style is graceful and precise, albeit a bit deadlier than Qui-Gon.

-Star Wars: Episode 1 Jedi Power Battles : Prima's Official Strategy Guide

This is significant because:

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters.

--Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

What's more, the Prima Guide for the Kenobi game says that Jinn is "the most skilled of the Jedi warriors".

No Caption Provided

Obviously, this can't be taken as literally true, but its yet another indicator that Jinn's technical skill is up there with the best of the best. Jinn also is said to have fenced Dooku "thousands" of times, keeping in mind that Dooku was not only almost on par with Yoda and Windu, but also the most sought after combat instructor in the Order. Jinn's extreme plethora of firsthand experience sparring with Dooku would be invaluable experience that Katarn couldn't possibly match. Combined with the fact that his lightsaber style is almost comparable in deadliness to Windu's Vaapad; that he's regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen in the Order's history; and is implied as being > the only living Jedi (bar Yoda and Windu) capable of defeating Sharad Hett, its safe to imply that by TPM, Jinn was second only to Yoda, Windu and Jedi Dooku in power and skill with the lightsaber. No other Jedi during this time has feats, scaling and accolades to match.

CONCLUSION

Jinn held his own against Maul according to the sources, with the main factor limiting his performance being his age. Aside from that, it can be reasonably inferred that in a neutral setting, he could fight Maul for well over a minute before being killed, which is an impressive feat in of itself. What's more, Jinn is implied to be second only to "the big three" of the TPM era Jedi in power and skill with the lightsaber, an era that is the prime of the Jedi. What does Kyle Katarn have in comparison? Jinn smokes him in technical skill, and there's no indication I can see that Katarn was ever more powerful than someone close to Darth Maul.

The response from DC77 will attempt to show you vague and ambiguous scaling using Katarn's performance against Caedus (which has already been debunked in another thread), or perhaps some other weird and convoluted scaling. What you need to consider, is that Jinn is among the best of the best during the prime of the Jedi. This is a time when the training was at its peak, and where the most powerful Jedi in history lived. Even Sidious was aware of Jinn's power, calling him a "powerful warrior" with "surprising stamina", proud that his training resulted in his apprentice being able to kill "the great Qui-Gon Jinn". Or what about Plagueis? He recognises Jinn's power, and when he hears that Maul confronted Jinn, his initial reaction was fear that Maul had been killed. Jinn is a warrior, a supremely skilled duelist and powerful in the Force. Kyle's history in comparison is being a grizzled combat instructor during a time when the Jedi were re-learning everything, and his best feat is beating a renegade Dark Jedi; where Qui-Gon could hold his own and present himself as a legitimate threat to a Sith Lord trained in the Banite fighting arts and with significant power in the Force.

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Meatpants

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@meatpants: well done. I have a few nitpicks here and there and I overall disagree with your opinion on katarn ( he does have other feats and accolades aside from losing to caedus and beating a “renegade dark Jedi” ,whom has accolades and feats that place him as a contender of Vader) but good job overall. We’ll see what jacen solo 77 has to say.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Solid post.

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The response from DC77 will attempt to show you vague and ambiguous scaling using Katarn's performance against Caedus (which has already been debunked in another thread), or perhaps some other weird and convoluted scaling.

LMAO. That "convoluted scaling" has as much merit as the TPM Maul scaling and no the "debunk" was the most dissatisfying thing I've ever read. And nah, Caedus scaling will probably take up a majority of the post. Just as an aside though, centre your images, it makes formatting much more easy to read and the post much more enjoyable. Given your self admitted lack of knowledge on anything related to NJO though I expect this won't take long. Expect a fast rebuttal.

Good post nonetheless.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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@jacensolo77

Your arrogance blinds you. MP has already won.

;)