Alright, this CaV has been a long time in the planning, and it is probably one of the few rare times I will debate with a mainstream character in a CaV. In this corner, we have:
The Immortal Iron Fist defended by Wyldsong:
Versus:
The Savage Wolverine defended by Wolverine08:
Location
The fight will be taking place in the abandoned ruins of a city:
Conditions
Morals Off, No holds barred
Random encounter, no prep
Win by Incapacitation, KO or Death
Starting distance of 300 feet
Wolverine has his healing factor and adamantium
Iron Fist's chi is functioning as per normal
Challenge a Viner Rules:
For your vote to be counted at least one reason must be provided and it must not be based off the character, only the debater.
Regular posting, or making comments is perfectly fine. However, you are not permitted to interfere in the debate, post scans, nor start any separate debates with another user.
If you must correct either of us on a point or ask us a question regarding the debate, it would be appreciated if you would resort to asking us in a P.M.
As always, may the best debater win.
@wolverine08: Let me know if anything needs to be changed, other than that, I will get my intro up in a bit, but feel free to start if you get bored of waiting on me. Oh, and as promised, Round 1, fight!
I don't think I have ever made a bad choice with the women picks, at least you have not complained so far=)
I am working up my intro post, so expect it between tonight and tomorrow. This will be a slow roll on the CaV, because I want to make sure we do this one right, and put on one hell of a show.
I don't think I have ever made a bad choice with the women picks, at least you have not complained so far=)
I am working up my intro post, so expect it between tonight and tomorrow. This will be a slow roll on the CaV, because I want to make sure we do this one right, and put on one hell of a show.
I don't think I have ever made a bad choice with the women picks, at least you have not complained so far=)
I am working up my intro post, so expect it between tonight and tomorrow. This will be a slow roll on the CaV, because I want to make sure we do this one right, and put on one hell of a show.
Danny Rand. I am not really sure he needs much of an introduction here. Undoubtedly he is probably Marvel's premiere martial artist, and has undeniable skill, power, and ability. So the question we are setting out to answer in this little debate: Does the Immortal Iron Fist have what it takes to put down the Savage Wolverine in a no holds barred, morals off battle? Most definitely.
Now let's take a look at a few things, and see just how and why this can and will happen=)
Skill:
Danny was pretty much raised and trained in the mystic city of K'un-Lun, and he has mastered all of K'un-Luns martial arts and many of those from Earth as well:
Gallery
Beating the dragon with his bare hands, he gained the powers of the Iron Fist:
Gallery
His training has enhanced his awareness and capabilities to superhuman levels:
He can sense Sue Richards invisible bo staff by feeling the barest shift in air currents:
And he can even enter a death like state through meditation:
He is also skilled in blindfighting (by the way, this was old school Sabretooth, back when he could give Wolvie a good fight):
Gallery
He has learned healing techniques:
Gallery
The hypnotic fist technique:
He has also learned energy absorption techniques:
Techniques to free himself from mental control:
Even mind melding techniques:
Is skilled enough to track and time a teleporting and attacking Nightcrawler to lay him out (he didn't have the luxury that Wolvie has had with studying and knowing Nightcrawler):
He has martial arts styles and moves for all types of occasions:
Gallery
And has even fought demonic forces while in a deep meditative state:
As can be seen, he has mastered many fighting arts, abilities and chi based techniques. Let's delve a bit deeper though, and see what else we can dig up...
Speed, Agility, Reflexes:
Thanks to a few outdated wikis and such, there is a horrible misconception on Danny's speed, which I will try and correct, since matching someone who is capable of the kinds of combat speeds Wolvie is will be important for my debate. It is erroneously believed that Danny quite simply achieves peak human levels of speed with his chi use. Well, sorry to break it to you gang, but that just is not true. Based on his feats, he is most definitely superhuman.
Now before I go much further, I want to make one distinction between chi and the powers of the Iron Fist. Chi is something that is used by a few Marvel martial artists, and of course has it's basis in various real world martial arts. Martial artists like Shang Chi have quite often achieved awesome feats of speed and striking power with the use the chi, which of course comes from their training. Even without the use of the Iron Fist powers, Danny does have access to chi, which allows him to pull off feats like this:
Chi is basically the go to explanation for a lot of the supernatural or superhuman feats attributed to martial artists of legends, fiction and many comics. Danny is able to amp his stats through the use of chi, but the use of chi doesn't necessarily equate to his Iron Fist powers, which are powered by chi. With that out of the way, let's get to the speed/reaction/agility feats.
He is fast enough to catch a thrown knife and toss it back before the attacker can react:
Pre-Immortal Iron Fist upgrades, he was still fast enough in reflexes/speed to take down a speedster:
Danny has plenty of bullet dodging feats, but we will keep the scan fest down on that point to few choice showings:
He is fast enough to catch a sniper bullet:
He deflects gunfire, chi amps the bullets, and reflects them back on his opponent (this was a training simulation, he did not kill the real Wolvie and Cap there):
Dodges gunfire from the Punisher (who has been capable of tagging a speedster and other superhumans with bullets):
Dodging bullets by a mere fraction of an inch:
He beat a gang of martial artists in a little less than half a dozen heart beats:
How about a microsecond reaction feat:
A speed blitz attack against a kinetic energy absorbing demon and then cutting it down (this was a weakened and hurt IF):
Gallery
And to add to his combat speed showings, he can match speed with, and fight evenly with Spidey himself:
Gallery
He also shows the ability to roll with a punch, and nerve strike/pressure point proficiency...
And he has the speed to match Gorgon fairly evenly in combat (Gorgon was in a Wolvie costume at the time):
Finally, from the new Living Weapon series, speed, agility, and combat on the outside of a building while dodging automatic gunfire:
Gallery
There should be no question on this aspect. Danny is definitely playing in the superhuman arena when it comes to speed, agility, and reflexes.
Durability:
There is this ever pervasive idea that Iron Fist is a glass canon. That while he can dish it out, he would be dropped pretty easily if a hit could connect. Alright, let's work on that. Danny has actually taken some good shots from some heavy hitters and kept on trucking. Now while this won't help him much against a claw in the gut, it should show that he can tank some kicks, elbows and so on.
Now, prior to what I am about to show, Danny had been showered with a corrosive acid, and was being run through the ringer, yet this scan shows that he has trained his mind and body to deal with and deaden the pain:
He can also roll with a punch to lessen damage from a hit, as shown when Man-Mountain Marko got a lucky on Danny (and as an FYI, Marko was strong enough to floor Luke Cage with a punch and wrestle with Spidey evenly):
While weakened after using the Iron Fist technique a few times and having previously fought the Wrecking Crew, he is able to tank some hits from Cap (not a bad showing for someone who was weakened and holding back):
Gallery
He get's hit with a weapon that strikes with the force of a howitzer shell and doesn't miss a step:
Gallery
How about tanking some hits from Iron Man while we are at it:
Gallery
And here he tanks a sneak attack from Sabretooth meant to drop him, he plays possum, and pulls the win:
Gallery
While his damage soak may not be on the level of Wolverine, he can take him hits, though most often, he just avoids them=)
Wolverine and Iron Fist:
So, now, I am going to clear up two major misconceptions for both sides of the fence, just to be fair. Let's take a look at this scene here:
Gallery
If one saw just that scene, one might think that Danny could easily dance around Wolvie, and take him down with ease. So, to be fair to Wolverine, let's point out that at that period in time, his past and skill had not been fully fleshed out. The Wolverine of that era bears little resemblance to the Wolverine of modern times, who enjoys a fairly extensive and fleshed out history, which includes an enhancement to his skill levels. Now, for the flip side, let's check this scene here:
Gallery
People like to bring this scene up to show why Wolvie would beat Danny, but let's dig a little deeper into this. Iron Fist was handicapped a bit this fight, as Wolverine still has enhanced strength, and more importantly adamantium laced bones to put the hurt on, whereas while Danny may be able to break steel without the Iron Fist, a punch without the right kind of enhancement won't really do much to someone who tanks hits from the Hulk. Still, all in all, the fight does show that he can match speed with Wolvie, and that Danny can take a few hits. But a friendly sparring match really doesn't say much about how a real fight would go down between these two. And whether it was meant to be funny or truth, you still have Danny stating he was holding back far more than Wolverine in that match. Let's also point out, that some of what Bendis wrote there needs to be taken with a grain of salt...I won't break out the Squirrel Girl fighting Wolvie scans...
Striking Power:
And so it all comes down to this. Just how exactly do you hurt someone who has tanked hits from the Hulk, and has insane healing ability? Well, a little of this doesn't hurt:
Gallery
Nor does this:
Or the ability to do this:
Gallery
He could try a little of this:
Gallery
And this one is always a nice touch:
Gallery
It is more than possible to overload Wolverine's healing factor, it just isn't easy, but there are plenty of instances of it happening. I don't think anyone will deny that Iron Fist does have the power do it. He more than has the power and ability to put the hurt on Wolvie, and take him out to end this fight. And to get this out there, but I am positive that my opponent knows this: Danny no longer get's weakened after using his Iron Fist techniques too much.
The question is, does Wolvie have what it takes to actually get those claws in a vital spot to take Danny down before Danny puts him down for the count?
Two A-Class debaters having at it, and a fantastic opener kicked things off too definitely with one to follow. If you wouldn't mind, tag me for votes :)
@wyldsong: Time to draw first blood! The best there is knows what time it is:
In this corner, we have the very best there is, Wolverine.
Martial Skill:
The first thing I will be touching on in a small amount in this CaV is Wolverine's fighting skill. As most now, Wolverine has regularly had his martial talent lauded as being one of the best around Marvel Earth. If there is one that won't be an edge for Danny throughout this fight, it's not going to martial talent. I will cover most of the background information like training and overall amounts of knowledge with Wolverine's martial skill.
In terms of pure knowledge, Wolverine has been regularly noted to have mastered every martial art that exists on the planet Earth along with a 7/7 fighting skill rating(Meaning you have mastered everything there is) to boot.
Another reference to his knowledge spanning every martial discipline there is:
During Manifest Destiny, Wolverine's Kung Fu teacher Master Po noted that in just in the single martial art of Kung Fu alone, Wolverine has mastered 18 different forms.
In another instance from Manifest Destiny, Wolverine noted how he had managed to take his martial mastery to the point where he had mastered alien martial arts from some of the most lauded combat priests of Shi"ar temples. He even as a showing of technical knowledge that backs up this statement that I will showcase later.
"From the seediest cutthroats in the back alleys of Madripoor to the most exalted combat priests of the Shi'ar throneworld. I've learned from them all." -Wolverine
In another showcasing of his vast knowledge, Kid Omega recently read Wolverine's mind in order to learn how to fly a ket, and just through a short scan of Wolverine's mind, he came back out with knowing 57 different ways to kill a man.
Just like with all other high end martial artists like Iron and Batman, Wolverine has a thoroughly expounded on training history that explains the source of his vast knowledge.
He's undergone training sessions with Master Po, a vaunted Kung Fu master:
Gallery
He has also trained under Silver Samurai:
This is a man skilled enough with the blade to slice bullets in half after they have been fired:
Gallery
He also improved so greatly while training under Shang Chi during Origins in his younger days that by time they had finished, Shang was referring to Wolverine as the master:
This was a monumental step up from Wolverine first trained under Shang Chi in his younger years and was getting succinctly owned:
Gallery
He subsequently came back a few years later continuity wise and completely handed Shang his arse.
Gallery
And another tidbit in regards to Wolverine's martial talent, his martial exploits during Manifest Destiny were great enough to earn him the title of "The Fist of Legend":
That's all I'm going to get into right now in regards to Wolverine's martial skill for now. Just to let you know, all this post really went into was the scope of Wolverine's knowledge and the credentials of the people whom have trained him. I still haven't touched on his technical showings nor his fights against fellow Marvel A listers, but this can be readily done if that is what you please. From here on out in the rest of this post, I'll just counter your showings of speed, striking power, and damage soak.
Speed:
Pre-Immortal Iron Fist upgrades, he was still fast enough in reflexes/speed to take down a speedster:
Wolverine is no stranger to speedsters himself. He's backhanded the speedster Speedball while he was both disoriented and not even looking at the kid to boot:
Back during Enemy of the State, a Wolverine whom was mind controlled by the Hand and essentially morals off easily tagged and killed the speedster Northstar:
He deflects gunfire (this was a training simulation, he did not kill the real Wolvie and Cap there):
Wolverine has blocked bullets with his claws himself:
Dodges gunfire from the Punisher (who has been capable of tagging a speedster and other superhumans with bullets):
If we want to talk avoiding top tier marksmen, Wolverine has evaded a few himself throughout his career. Cyclops is one such example. Scott's accuracy with his optic blasts has let him pop off feats like shoot coins out of the air, defuse a bomb by shooting the millimeter wide detonator on it, has shoot multiple missiles out of the air, he's tagged the speedsters Northstar and Quicksilver, uses ricochet shots with extreme precision(Has launched 5+ ricochets to hit targets, has ricocheted shots off walls to hit people he couldn't see, etc.) yet Wolverine has managed to dodge his optic blasts before:
and again:
I'd also add in the fact that this feat is more impressive in light of the fact that Scott has studied Wolverine(And every other X-Man) extensively so as to know their patterns, etc.
Dodging bullets by a mere fraction of an inch:
Wolverine's managed to avoid point blank gunfire to his face as well, from an automatic Uzi no less.
He beat a gang of martial artists in a little less than half a dozen heart beats:
I'd say that Wolverine has matched this feat with this little incident right here:
Gallery
A group of ninja whom were purportedly fast enough to attack in the spaces between spaces were attacked so fast that not only did they not have time to react to Logan's attack, but they subsequently died so fast that they didn't even notice that they had died.
And to add to his combat speed showings, he can match speed with, and fight evenly with Spidey himself:
Wolverine himself has slapped fistcuffs with Peter combat speed wise and has garnered comparisons and compliments regarding his speed from Parker. Like their first fight in Spider-Man verus Wolverine #1:
Gallery
Wolverine not only managed to dance around Parker(And almost hit him), but even got Peter to wonder if he could be possibly be faster than him.
"He's fast... faster than me?"
This next feat is a bit off hand, but while Spider-Man was fighting Wolverine's son Daken back during Dark Reign, he made mention to the fact while he was struggling with Daken's speed that Daken was just as fast as his dad:
Gallery
"Dang, he's as fast as his dad."
I'd also add in that Wolverine doesn't need phernomes to pull off his combat speed feats against Spider-Man.
And he has the speed to match Gorgon fairly evenly in combat (Gorgon was in a Wolvie costume at the time):
While this feat is indeed impressive on the outside view, I do think one thing needs to be factored into this instance, Gorgon's arrogance. Tomi is somewhat notorious for playing around his food so to say during fights, and it's cost him before like in his final fight with Wolverine during Enemy of State when he played around too much with Wolverine and was subsequently was tricked into using his stone stare on himself. If you want verification as to Tomi falling back towards his old habit, just look at his words while fighting Danny:
"I'm saving my fight for Logan. You are just an obstacle."
Not only was Tomi saving himself because he wanted to be 100% when he encountered Wolverine again, he didn't even seem to be taking Danny all that seriously considering that he thought of Rand just being an obstacle towards his ultimate goal. There are other instances of Tomi playing around resulting in his opponents do better than they should. Recently in Tomi fought Shang Chi for 13 pages, and throughout the fight, Tomi played around a bit, which allowed Shang to subsequently get good hits in like these:
Gallery
But when Gorgon stopped toying around(As indicated by his facial expressions), he ended up blitzing and dispatching in a single page:
So to conclude, while the feat is all bad, I would say that had Gorgon been putting his all into that little skirmish, Iron Fist most likely wouldn't have done as well as he did.
There is this ever pervasive idea that Iron Fist is a glass canon. That while he can dish it out, he would be dropped pretty easily if a hit could connect. Alright, let's work on that. Danny has actually taken some good shots from some heavy hitters and kept on trucking. Now while this won't help him much against a claw in the gut, it should show that he can tank some kicks, elbows and so on.
Damage Output:
There is this ever pervasive idea that Iron Fist is a glass canon. That while he can dish it out, he would be dropped pretty easily if a hit could connect. Alright, let's work on that. Danny has actually taken some good shots from some heavy hitters and kept on trucking. Now while this won't help him much against a claw in the gut, it should show that he can tank some kicks, elbows and so on.
Well, you did already outline the underlying problem with the durability feats you posted for Danny, they won't save him from claw stabs. A morals off Wolverine isn't going to be throwing out elbows, kicks, etc. He'll just stab him. How dangerous are the claws that Wolverine is throwing at Danny? So dangerous that they've cut people like World War Hulk:
or one shotted the Thing:
Let's just ask Sabretooth, someone whom has tanked hits from people like bricks like Wendigo and running with a top tier healing factor just how much damage Wolverine can do in just a few strikes:
Let's just say, these claws throw out an obscene amount of damage. They aren't just knives, they're 12 inch plot devices and while Danny is running with chi healing as an ace in the hole to try deal with Wolverine's damage output, has he ever been able to deal with piercing damage in the same league as that of Wolverine's claws?
While his damage soak may not be on the level of Wolverine, he can take him hits, though most often, he just avoids them=)
Problem is, Wolverine is in the same league as Danny both martially and speed wise, he's easily working with the capacity to tag him, and his damage output is obscenely lethal. Danny's going to have to either severely weaken Wolverine or risk getting injured by a fairly fresh Wolverine whom can keep the damage coming.
Wolverine vs Iron Fist:
I agree with your analysis of Wolverine and Iron Fist's first fight, so I'm just going to leave that alone.
Now, for the flip side, let's check this scene here:
People like to bring this scene up to show why Wolvie would beat Danny, but let's dig a little deeper into this. Iron Fist was handicapped a bit this fight, as Wolverine still has enhanced strength, and more importantly adamantium laced bones to put the hurt on, whereas while Danny may be able to break steel without the Iron Fist, a punch without the right kind of enhancement won't really do much to someone who tanks hits from the Hulk. Still, all in all, the fight does show that he can match speed with Wolvie, and that Danny can take a few hits. But a friendly sparring match really doesn't say much about how a real fight would go down between these two. And whether it was meant to be funny or truth, you still have Danny stating he was holding back far more than Wolverine in that match. Let's also point out, that some of what Bendis wrote there needs to be taken with a grain of salt...I won't break out the Squirrel Girl fighting Wolvie scans...
In regards to Wolverine and Iron Fist's short sparring match in New Avengers #15, and it is one of the misunderstood fights around street land that is thrown around a lot on here. Wolverine still had his superhuman strength, I'll give you that, but the adamantium skeleton doesn't add up to much in the scheme of things because the fight wasn't set up in a fashion that it would become a big edge for him. Danny wasn't tasked with knocking James unconscious, he simply had to knock him on his back. Whether or not Danny would really affect James due to the skeleton doesn't matter because Wolverine can still be moved like a normal human, and if he had fallen on his back, he would have lost. Adamantium laced fists would have helped in striking power, but Wolverine used technical knowledge(Submission hold) to end that fight. That's pure skill right there. And while Danny did say he was trying less(Which could have been him just saving face), no one tries to loss a fight, even a sparring match. I also take issue with trying to discredit the fight via name dropping Bendis. For one, that works both ways. The infamous Helacarrier feat that is thrown around to demonstrate Danny's striking power? That was written my Mr. Bendis. Luke Cage fast ball specialing Danny? There goes Bendis again. Are we going to throw those feats out as well? IMO, if you have doubts about the situations a writer creates, one should just look at what the character has consistently done, and Wolverine has done enough to say that him defeating Iron Fist in a sparring match isn't all that odd. This is the guy whom has stomped Captain America while running with a healing factor that was barely weakened, was exhausted, and holding back along with a massive history of outperforming A list Marvel street levelers. It's not like he had no martial history up until that point and just walked in and dropped an A lister like Rand. I wouldn't mind if you brought up Squirrel Girl beating Wolverine either because I can bring scans of Squirrel Girl beating Thanos and Doctor Doom. The character has been established as someone whom just doesn't take Ls. Put Danny in a fight with Squirrel Girl in a Marvel comic, and he'd get slapped around as well.
Damage Soak:
Just how exactly do you hurt someone who has tanked hits from the Hulk, and has insane healing ability?
Damn right Wolverine has tanked hits from Hulk. Even amped versions of the green guy have had problems putting him down solely through blunt force. Just ask World War Hulk:
It took not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six consecutive bangs to Logan's noggin for Hulk to put him out for good, and Wolverine was subsequently up a few pages later. Albeit with brain damage to go along.
He's taken class 100 hits while not even seeing them coming and has come out only a little dazed for a page before getting back in the action.
Gallery
That is but just an appetizer of Wolverine's history of taking blows from people whom hit harder than Danny like Wonder Man, Sasquatch, the Thing, Namor, etc. While I do agree with you that Danny does present the damage output to stop Wolverine, he's not going to be one shotting Wolverine, and I think the real question here is can Danny avoid getting hit but once by Wolverine's damage output while subsequently taxing his healing factor through his own damage output. I don't think he can for a majority.
Well, that's it from me for now. I await your next post. Best there is. Out!
@wyldsong: Time to draw first blood! The best there is knows what time it is:
In this corner, we have the very best there is, Wolverine.
Martial Skill:
The first thing I will be touching on in a small amount in this CaV is Wolverine's fighting skill. As most now, Wolverine has regularly had his martial talent lauded as being one of the best around Marvel Earth. If there is one that won't be an edge for Danny throughout this fight, it's not going to martial talent. I will cover most of the background information like training and overall amounts of knowledge with Wolverine's martial skill.
In terms of pure knowledge, Wolverine has been regularly noted to have mastered every martial art that exists on the planet Earth along with a 7/7 fighting skill rating(Meaning you have mastered everything there is) to boot.
Another reference to his knowledge spanning every martial discipline there is:
During Manifest Destiny, Wolverine's Kung Fu teacher Master Po noted that in just in the single martial art of Kung Fu alone, Wolverine has mastered 18 different forms.
He's also in the Japanese fighting form of sticks, or budo, and has mastered Jewish martial arts known only to Israel's secret security, the Mossad:
In another instance from Manifest Destiny, Wolverine noted how he had managed to take his martial mastery to the point where he had mastered alien martial arts from some of the most lauded combat priests of Shi"ar temples. He even as a showing of technical knowledge that backs up this statement that I will showcase later.
"From the seediest cutthroats in the back alleys of Madripoor to the most exalted combat priests of the Shi'ar throneworld. I've learned from them all." -Wolverine
In another showcasing of his vast knowledge, Kid Omega recently read Wolverine's mind in order to learn how to fly a ket, and just through a short scan of Wolverine's mind, he came back out with knowing 57 different ways to kill a man.
Just like with all other high end martial artists like Iron and Batman, Wolverine has a thoroughly expounded on training history that explains the source of his vast knowledge.
He's undergone training sessions with Master Po, a vaunted Kung Fu master:
Gallery
He has also trained under Silver Samurai:
This is a man skilled enough with the blade to slice bullets in half after they have been fired:
Gallery
He also improved so greatly while training under Shang Chi during Origins in his younger days that by time they had finished, Shang was referring to Wolverine as the master:
This was a monumental step up from Wolverine first trained under Shang Chi in his younger years and was getting succinctly owned:
Gallery
He subsequently came back a few years later continuity wise and completely handed Shang his arse.
Gallery
And another tidbit in regards to Wolverine's martial talent, his martial exploits during Manifest Destiny were great enough to earn him the title of "The Fist of Legend":
That's all I'm going to get into right now in regards to Wolverine's martial skill for now. Just to let you know, all this post really went into was the scope of Wolverine's knowledge and the credentials of the people whom have trained him. I still haven't touched on his technical showings nor his fights against fellow Marvel A listers, but this can be readily done if that is what you please. From here on out in the rest of this post, I'll just counter your showings of speed, striking power, and damage soak.
Speed:
Pre-Immortal Iron Fist upgrades, he was still fast enough in reflexes/speed to take down a speedster:
Wolverine is no stranger to speedsters himself. He's backhanded the speedster Speedball while he was both disoriented and not even looking at the kid to boot:
Back during Enemy of the State, a Wolverine whom was mind controlled by the Hand and essentially morals off easily tagged and killed the speedster Northstar:
He deflects gunfire (this was a training simulation, he did not kill the real Wolvie and Cap there):
Wolverine has blocked bullets with his claws himself:
Dodges gunfire from the Punisher (who has been capable of tagging a speedster and other superhumans with bullets):
If we want to talk avoiding top tier marksmen, Wolverine has evaded a few himself throughout his career. Cyclops is one such example. Scott's accuracy with his optic blasts has let him pop off feats like shoot coins out of the air, defuse a bomb by shooting the millimeter wide detonator on it, has shoot multiple missiles out of the air, he's tagged the speedsters Northstar and Quicksilver, uses ricochet shots with extreme precision(Has launched 5+ ricochets to hit targets, has ricocheted shots off walls to hit people he couldn't see, etc.) yet Wolverine has managed to dodge his optic blasts before:
and again:
I'd also add in the fact that this feat is more impressive in light of the fact that Scott has studied Wolverine(And every other X-Man) extensively so as to know their patterns, etc.
Dodging bullets by a mere fraction of an inch:
Wolverine's managed to avoid point blank gunfire to his face as well, from an automatic Uzi no less.
He beat a gang of martial artists in a little less than half a dozen heart beats:
I'd say that Wolverine has matched this feat with this little incident right here:
Gallery
A group of ninja whom were purportedly fast enough to attack in the spaces between spaces were attacked so fast that not only did they not have time to react to Logan's attack, but they subsequently died so fast that they didn't even notice that they had died.
A speed blitz attack against a kinetic energy absorbing demon and then cutting it down (this was a weakened and hurt IF):
I think I can supersede this. How about Wolverine being fast enough that Psylocke, a legit bullet timer:
is unable to track his movements as he moves like a blur along with Sabretooth.
And to add to his combat speed showings, he can match speed with, and fight evenly with Spidey himself:
Wolverine himself has slapped fistcuffs with Peter combat speed wise and has garnered comparisons and compliments regarding his speed from Parker. Like their first fight in Spider-Man verus Wolverine #1:
Gallery
Wolverine not only managed to dance around Parker(And almost hit him), but even got Peter to wonder if he could be possibly be faster than him.
"He's fast... faster than me?"
This next feat is a bit off hand, but while Spider-Man was fighting Wolverine's son Daken back during Dark Reign, he made mention to the fact while he was struggling with Daken's speed that Daken was just as fast as his dad:
Gallery
"Dang, he's as fast as his dad."
I'd also add in that Wolverine doesn't need phernomes to pull off his combat speed feats against Spider-Man.
And he has the speed to match Gorgon fairly evenly in combat (Gorgon was in a Wolvie costume at the time):
While this feat is indeed impressive on the outside view, I do think one thing needs to be factored into this instance, Gorgon's arrogance. Tomi is somewhat notorious for playing around his food so to say during fights, and it's cost him before like in his final fight with Wolverine during Enemy of State when he played around too much with Wolverine and was subsequently was tricked into using his stone stare on himself. If you want verification as to Tomi falling back towards his old habit, just look at his words while fighting Danny:
"I'm saving my fight for Logan. You are just an obstacle."
Not only was Tomi saving himself because he wanted to be 100% when he encountered Wolverine again, he didn't even seem to be taking Danny all that seriously considering that he thought of Rand just being an obstacle towards his ultimate goal. There are other instances of Tomi playing around resulting in his opponents do better than they should. Recently in Tomi fought Shang Chi for 13 pages, and throughout the fight, Tomi played around a bit, which allowed Shang to subsequently get good hits in like these:
Gallery
But when Gorgon stopped toying around(As indicated by his facial expressions), he ended up blitzing and dispatching in a single page:
So to conclude, while the feat is all bad, I would say that had Gorgon been putting his all into that little skirmish, Iron Fist most likely wouldn't have done as well as he did.
There is this ever pervasive idea that Iron Fist is a glass canon. That while he can dish it out, he would be dropped pretty easily if a hit could connect. Alright, let's work on that. Danny has actually taken some good shots from some heavy hitters and kept on trucking. Now while this won't help him much against a claw in the gut, it should show that he can tank some kicks, elbows and so on.
Damage Output:
There is this ever pervasive idea that Iron Fist is a glass canon. That while he can dish it out, he would be dropped pretty easily if a hit could connect. Alright, let's work on that. Danny has actually taken some good shots from some heavy hitters and kept on trucking. Now while this won't help him much against a claw in the gut, it should show that he can tank some kicks, elbows and so on.
Well, you did already outline the underlying problem with the durability feats you posted for Danny, they won't save him from claw stabs. A morals off Wolverine isn't going to be throwing out elbows, kicks, etc. He'll just stab him. How dangerous are the claws that Wolverine is throwing at Danny? So dangerous that they've cut people like World War Hulk:
or one shotted the Thing:
or the claws that were recently able to cut apart a mystical tree that was strong enough to render Thor unable to move in only a few slashes?
Gallery
Let's just ask Sabretooth, someone whom has tanked hits from people like bricks like Wendigo and running with a top tier healing factor just how much damage Wolverine can do in just a few strikes:
Let's just say, these claws throw out an obscene amount of damage. They aren't just knives, they're 12 inch plot devices and while Danny is running with chi healing as an ace in the hole to try deal with Wolverine's damage output, has he ever been able to deal with piercing damage in the same league as that of Wolverine's claws?
While his damage soak may not be on the level of Wolverine, he can take him hits, though most often, he just avoids them=)
Problem is, Wolverine is in the same league as Danny both martially and speed wise, he's easily working with the capacity to tag him, and his damage output is obscenely lethal. Danny's going to have to either severely weaken Wolverine or risk getting injured by a fairly fresh Wolverine whom can keep the damage coming.
Wolverine vs Iron Fist:
I agree with your analysis of Wolverine and Iron Fist's first fight, so I'm just going to leave that alone.
Now, for the flip side, let's check this scene here:
People like to bring this scene up to show why Wolvie would beat Danny, but let's dig a little deeper into this. Iron Fist was handicapped a bit this fight, as Wolverine still has enhanced strength, and more importantly adamantium laced bones to put the hurt on, whereas while Danny may be able to break steel without the Iron Fist, a punch without the right kind of enhancement won't really do much to someone who tanks hits from the Hulk. Still, all in all, the fight does show that he can match speed with Wolvie, and that Danny can take a few hits. But a friendly sparring match really doesn't say much about how a real fight would go down between these two. And whether it was meant to be funny or truth, you still have Danny stating he was holding back far more than Wolverine in that match. Let's also point out, that some of what Bendis wrote there needs to be taken with a grain of salt...I won't break out the Squirrel Girl fighting Wolvie scans...
In regards to Wolverine and Iron Fist's short sparring match in New Avengers #15, and it is one of the misunderstood fights around street land that is thrown around a lot on here. Wolverine still had his superhuman strength, I'll give you that, but the adamantium skeleton doesn't add up to much in the scheme of things because the fight wasn't set up in a fashion that it would become a big edge for him. Danny wasn't tasked with knocking James unconscious, he simply had to knock him on his back. Whether or not Danny would really affect James due to the skeleton doesn't matter because Wolverine can still be moved like a normal human, and if he had fallen on his back, he would have lost. Adamantium laced fists would have helped in striking power, but Wolverine used technical knowledge(Submission hold) to end that fight. That's pure skill right there. And while Danny did say he was trying less(Which could have been him just saving face), no one tries to loss a fight, even a sparring match. I also take issue with trying to discredit the fight via name dropping Bendis. For one, that works both ways. The infamous Helacarrier feat that is thrown around to demonstrate Danny's striking power? That was written my Mr. Bendis. Luke Cage fast ball specialing Danny? There goes Bendis again. Are we going to throw those feats out as well? IMO, if you have doubts about the situations a writer creates, one should just look at what the character has consistently done, and Wolverine has done enough to say that him defeating Iron Fist in a sparring match isn't all that odd. This is the guy whom has stomped Captain America while running with a healing factor that was barely weakened, was exhausted, and holding back along with a massive history of outperforming A list Marvel street levelers. It's not like he had no martial history up until that point and just walked in and dropped an A lister like Rand. I wouldn't mind if you brought up Squirrel Girl beating Wolverine either because I can bring scans of Squirrel Girl beating Thanos and Doctor Doom. The character has been established as someone whom just doesn't take Ls. Put Danny in a fight with Squirrel Girl in a Marvel comic, and he'd get slapped around as well.
Damage Soak:
Just how exactly do you hurt someone who has tanked hits from the Hulk, and has insane healing ability?
Damn right Wolverine has tanked hits from Hulk. Even amped versions of the green guy have had problems putting him down solely through blunt force. Just ask World War Hulk:
It took not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six consecutive bangs to Logan's noggin for Hulk to put him out for good, and Wolverine was subsequently up a few pages later. Albeit with brain damage to go along. This is a man whom in weaker incarnations like Grey Hulk has blown up asteroids with his striking power:
Gallery
He's taken class 100 hits while not even seeing them coming and has come out only a little dazed for a page before getting back in the action.
Gallery
That is but just an appetizer of Wolverine's history of taking blows from people whom hit harder than Danny like Wonder Man, Sasquatch, the Thing, Namor, etc. While I do agree with you that Danny does present the damage output to stop Wolverine, he's not going to be one shotting Wolverine, and I think the real question here is can Danny avoid getting hit but once by Wolverine's damage output while subsequently taxing his healing factor through his own damage output. I don't think he can for a majority.
Well, that's it from me for now. I await your next post. Best there is. Out!
@wolverine08: Lol...you are only doing this to see what I have lined up ring girl wise, aren't you? Admit it, you don't care if you win or lose, as long as I bring the ring girls...
@wolverine08: If you're not keen on Wolverine vs Cyclops anymore, wanna organize for a different CAV where it won't just come down to long range vs short range?
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