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#52 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: lol. gotcha, just givin ya a hard time, enjoy man..........have fun

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#55 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: ok brother, weekends over lol. just tryin to wrap some threads up, I've got a lot of stuff in the works that need to be started

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#56 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 Okay, making the post now. Can we only have 3 counters instead of 4 to save time? But anyway here I go:

Round 3

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Counters

ok then. lotsa ground to cover here. It would be audacious to say that Danny's IF isn't powerful. It is very, very respectable there is no doubt about that.

And it is very plausible to say that Danny is goin through the vast majority of Betsy's shields (she really doesn't use traditional shielding much anyways).

That's not to say that her TK is not substantial however......and can use it a multitude of different ways against Danny. Aside from simple defensive shielding, Betsy has exhibited TK usage such as: intensive waves of concussive force to throw opponents offbalance, enhancing her martial arts strikes, making sure her opponents strikes not land (which will come in very effective against Danny here. How will he hit/KO something he can't touch?), and lifting/pushing objects that weigh tons.

Okay, first of glad that you agree with me that the Iron Fist punch can go through her shields. I didn't want to have to bring up this:

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Secondly, I want to say that I fully understand how powerful Betsy's TK is and how getting past it will be a major challenge. Her tactile TK is pretty insane. I won't underestimate it here but while her TK is ridiculous, so is Danny's chi. In fact I believe Danny can augument his chi more powerfully than Betsy can, making him more powerful overall.

Next Up

Psylocke is an extremely skilled martial artist, but the fighting art that she uses has never been revealed. Her skills and technique in martial arts is shown to be even more advanced that an average Hand ninja, a Crimson Dawn Undercloak and even surpasses that of a ninja master. Psylocke has also received additional training from the Age of Apocalypse version of Sabretooth and an alternative reality version of Ogun that vastly developed her skills in this area.

As a psychic, Psylocke possess the ability to counter attack as she is able to read the thoughts of her opponents minutes before they make a move (which she is not doing here but may get a pre-cog flash. doubtful that it will help though....). She can also make her presence undetectable from humans and mutants, and is even able to hide herself from Wolverine's super sense and any form of telepathy or mind detection. Psylocke can also cast illusions to distract her opponents. She can use her telekinesis abilities to increase her speed and strength and make her fighting skills far stronger and is even shown to be able to out match people with super-strength like Sabretooth or Juggernaut.

Yes, she is also a very skilled and fast character but I can gamble that Iron Fist takes the slight edge on both of those categories. The edge I see more leaning to Danny's side is definently speed. Don't get me wrong, I believe Psylocke is a extremely fast character but I firmly think Danny is faster. Here some feats that just bring him over the edge speed-wise

Pretty f*cking impressive
Pretty f*cking impressive

Here is Iron Fist going so fast as a blitz that the person doesn't even know he attacked. All he knows is that he's on the ground. This shows that Danny can move at a rate in which it will be even harder for Betsy to land her psychic knife on Mr. Rand

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This is a visual representation of what the Iron Fist can do to Psylocke if she either slips up or he gets in close. He can and has blitzed and demolished people with his insane chi. The only difference between this and Psylocke will be that Betsy won't have something protecting her like T'Challa has with his Vibranium armor.

Skill

Now the next argument we could have is over who has more fighting skill. I have to say that we are pretty damn even in skill but I believe Danny should walk away with a very slight edge. Danny has been training for man, many, many years for fighting as has Betsy. But based on feats Danny has a advantage. I don't want to take anything away from Betsy, as if Danny slips up she could be on him like peanut butter on jelly. But the point I'm traying to make is that Betsy will slip up more times than Danny. I've been saving up this scan but here is one of Iron Fist's most impressive displays of skill, and it's against the X-Men

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As you see here Danny is able to take on: Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Banshee all while previously weakened before Storm comes in and makes Danny fall into Colossus's hands. This obviously impressive that he was able to take on the superhuman speeding wolverine, knock away Colossus, and manage to hurt Nightcrawler as he teleports all around the place. With this and being able to fight evenly with Gorgon in mind(don't forget how easily Gorgon beat Wolverine) I'd say Danny gains a SLIGHT advantage over Betsy.

Summary

With Danny's slight speed and skill advantage, his one shotting Iron FIst, and his enormously enhanced physicals he should be able to overcome Psylocke and get a finishing move before she does to him. While it will not be easy, I know Danny will advance to the next round of this tournament :)

Sidenote

I doubt Danny will be too distracted by Betsy. He knows if he wins he can come home to this:

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#57 Posted by ForneverStar (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@iragexcudder: I know I can't wait to see what happens. Even tho I'm rooting for iron fist

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#58 Posted by Iragexcudder (9464 posts) - - Show Bio
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#59 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: nice! badass post bro....I will try and get my up tonight, if not then I'll get it up tomorrow (workin on round 2 building of my tourney...)

and,

Can we only have 3 counters instead of 4 to save time?

sure, that actually works........don't see having much more to say here anyway....

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#60 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: nice! badass post bro....I will try and get my up tonight, if not then I'll get it up tomorrow (workin on round 2 building of my tourney...)

and,

Can we only have 3 counters instead of 4 to save time?

sure, that actually works........don't see having much more to say here anyway....

Sweet, do you mind if you vote in the Hell in a Cell match too please :)

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#61 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911:

Sweet, do you mind if you vote in the Hell in a Cell match too please :)

lmao...........I have it open in another tab window and was planning on doing that next. gimme a lil bit to re-read and work on detailed response for ya guys ok?

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#62 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911:

Sweet, do you mind if you vote in the Hell in a Cell match too please :)

lmao...........I have it open in another tab window and was planning on doing that next. gimme a lil bit to re-read and work on detailed response for ya guys ok?

Sounds cool

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#63 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: ahhhh..........i'm gettin sidetracked with stuff (vine and real life). I won't be able to dedicate time fully to final post until Sunday. Kosher?

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#64 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: ahhhh..........i'm gettin sidetracked with stuff (vine and real life). I won't be able to dedicate time fully to final post until Sunday. Kosher?

Fine by me

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#65 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: cool. think we made quite the interesting read thus far don't you?

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#66 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: alright let's finish this thing shall we?

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the Closing Argument!!!!

alright man. there has been excellent discussion here on Chi VS. Tk, and fighting ability all of which make an excellent case for each and thus far have been great showcases of skill.

The main points of contention here are as follows:

  1. IF Chi strike Vs. Betsy's TK abilities
  2. martial arts prowress.
  3. speed (striking, dodging, and reactionary skills)
  4. who lands what on whom?

understandable enough. let me break this down into each category (and sub-categories as well under each) and then do a quick closing statement.

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1.) IF Chi strike Vs. Betsy's TK abilities

Okay, first of glad that you agree with me that the Iron Fist punch can go through her shields

yes, agreed.

Secondly, I want to say that I fully understand how powerful Betsy's TK is and how getting past it will be a major challenge. Her tactile TK is pretty insane. I won't underestimate it here but while her TK is ridiculous, so is Danny's chi. In fact I believe Danny can augument his chi more powerfully than Betsy can, making him more powerful overall

The real main point I want to illustrate her is Betsy using her TK to keep Danny off balanced enough where he will not be able to effectively render his speed and martial art abilities. Betsy is very versatile in using her TK abilities and as I've shown previously can utilize TK similar to "Force Abilities" in the Star Wars Universe such as "Force Push".

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as to keep Danny away from her if need be. Betsy if familiar with the IF and Danny (enough to know that if he lands.....she's toast), so I see her using her TK abilities to the fullest and in every possible way to her advantage. Also, any good Ninja is going to use a weapon to it's fullest.

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what may be used to hold in place and protect...........may also be used to push away and off balance

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which leads into my next point...................

2.) martial arts prowress.

undoubtedly Danny Rand is one of the upper echelon of Martial Artists in the Marvel Universe. And I'm not as audacious to say that Betsy is his equal, she falls a bit below that. Also considering that Danny has a longer history as a renowned Martial Artist than Betsy.

That is not taking away Betsy's abilities and skills however. I feel that her skills are comparable enough to compensate with Sabertooth and Wolverine savagery speed and ability (numerous times each). Betsy has considerable blocking, dodging/reactionary, and striking feats against the both. That is considerable taking into factor Danny's showing against Sabertooth and Logan respectively.

Let's also take into this main factor. Betsy is a Ninja, expertly trained. Danny is an exceptional Martial artist, however there is a distinct

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difference between the two. And that is a Ninja will rely on stealth, subterfuge/diversionary tactics, and playing off the environment that Danny may not necessarily employ (more along the lines of straight forward confidence) . There was a reason Betsy was a part of Uncanny X-Force espionage team. That along speaks highly of her credibilities to be included amongst the likes of:

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so in conjunction with the terrain (remember the dinosaurs and such?), I can see Betsy using TK and diversionary tactics with whatever's at her disposal to play "hit and run" techniques to off balance the IF.

3.) speed (striking, dodging, and reactionary skills)

The edge I see more leaning to Danny's side is definently speed. Don't get me wrong, I believe Psylocke is a extremely fast character but I firmly think Danny is faster. Here some feats that just bring him over the edge speed-wise

one of the main points I want to bring up here is her showings on a consistent basis to match speed and skill with Logan, Sabertooth, and the likes of Daredevil (shown below)

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Psylocke also has fair consistent showings of reactionary times and landing hits on opponents with significantly higher speed skills

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and that really says a lot due to feral bloodlusted wolverine.

Considering this was logan and Danny sparring..............

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4.) who lands what on whom?

yes, if Danny lands the IF Betsy is done. However so id Danny if Betsy lands her Knife attack. And considering the argument I've made for Besty's use of TK, Ninja skills, Terrain advantage, and simple skill......i say she lands it on Danny. Case closed, it's a wrap.

The Psychic Knife seals the deal.

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In Conclusion

fantastic debate. I think this is a real close one. It was an honor to debate with ya cdiddy, and hop to do another in the future, Regardless whomever wins this, I had a great time and thoroughly enjoyed myself!!!

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*Sidenote

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ending on..............no more seduction. straight bad ass!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#68 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: all done brother!!!!!!!

let's do shout outs and i'm changing the title to voting!!!!!!!

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#69 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: all done brother!!!!!!!

let's do shout outs and i'm changing the title to voting!!!!!!!

Sure thing. I want to thank you for the entertaining and excellent debate

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#70 Posted by Iragexcudder (9464 posts) - - Show Bio
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#71 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#73 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump! Votes!

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#74 Posted by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

the picture of psylocke in the OP makes her look like a man....

one area in particular i question what she's really packing.

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#76 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Edited by RIKR2 (21273 posts) - - Show Bio
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#78 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: @cdiddyman911: Alright just finished reading this prop to you guys for such an awesome Cav. While I have seen Cav more competitive than this I have never seen a Cav (specially one where cosmically isn't involved ) that is so down to earth.

Utmost respect to the both of you.

I will have to give this to cosmically but it was too dawn close.

Props to cosmically for using seduction as a technique and props to cdiddy for actually using the f - word as a scan caption.

Massive respect to both of you but sorry had to pick one. My respect to both of you as debaters have just gone up massively. Kudos mate.

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#79 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36455 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Trying to avoid reading anyone else's comments so they don't influence me. I'm reading.

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#80 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: @cdiddyman911: Alright just finished reading this prop to you guys for such an awesome Cav. While I have seen Cav more competitive than this I have never seen a Cav (specially one where cosmically isn't involved ) that is so down to earth.

Utmost respect to the both of you.

I will have to give this to cosmically but it was too dawn close.

Props to cosmically for using seduction as a technique and props to cdiddy for actually using the f - word as a scan caption.

Massive respect to both of you but sorry had to pick one. My respect to both of you as debaters have just gone up massively. Kudos mate.

Thank you man, I like to be down to earth with CAV's like this. Any reason why he wins? Not trying to sound pushy just curious. I want to improve :)

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#81 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: no worries man respect given where respect due and you massively earned it. Trust me I don't hand out random compliments (I did outright say I have seen more competitive cav).

It's the versatility he brought up that made me lean towards him. Stuffs like Betsy using her tk to actually need hid ability.

Honestly at the end of the day it was more like taking a random pick from a hat. My long time friendship with cosmically might have affected that a bit but i tried my level best not to be based

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#82 Posted by Frozen (21112 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: You get my vote Cosmic, amazing job. But huge props to Cdiddy, an admirable debate.

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#83 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: no worries man respect given where respect due and you massively earned it. Trust me I don't hand out random compliments (I did outright say I have seen more competitive cav).

It's the versatility he brought up that made me lean towards him. Stuffs like Betsy using her tk to actually need hid ability.

Honestly at the end of the day it was more like taking a random pick from a hat. My long time friendship with cosmically might have affected that a bit but i tried my level best not to be based

Cool! Thank you for Voting dude

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#84 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: no worries man. Do let me know when you have other Cavs please.

I will be honest I haven't seen you debate before this is like the first time I am reading your debate and honestly I am massively impresses. I would love to read more of your arguments specially given my knowledge of street level guys is downright terrible.

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#85 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: wow, i really surprised thus far. I will say that this has been one of the more challenging debates that I've been in awhile. You know your stuff and really know how to present quite the argument. Once again, it was an honor to have participated in this with you!!!

So the vote count as it stands (i like doing a tally thing to keep track):

cosmicallyaware1: 2

cdiddyman: 0

@killemall: dude, you honor me. I am humbled by your vote man, I have the utmost respect for you as a wealth of knowledge and a debator.

Massive respect to both of you but sorry had to pick one. My respect to both of you as debaters have just gone up massively. Kudos mate

hell yeah. That's impressive.

@frozen said:

@cosmicallyaware1: You get my vote Cosmic, amazing job. But huge props to Cdiddy, an admirable debate.

right on man, much appreciated.

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#86 Posted by Iragexcudder (9464 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: @cosmicallyaware1: this was one of the closest matches I have ever read.. although I do believe that Iron Fist would dodge a lot that Betsy would throw at her, the TK and psyknife is honestly the dealbreaker imo. Cos, you get my vote.

Diddy, you are becoming phenomenal at debating dude, props to you man

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#87 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15208 posts) - - Show Bio
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#88 Posted by Wyldsong (9635 posts) - - Show Bio

I will give this a read tomorrow guys=)

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#89 Posted by beatboks1 (9812 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guy's I'll refrain from voting. Too much of an IF fanboy to give an unbiased vote. Cos did amazingly but I just can't buy Betsy taking Danny.

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#90 Posted by Wyldsong (9635 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guy's I'll refrain from voting. Too much of an IF fanboy to give an unbiased vote. Cos did amazingly but I just can't buy Betsy taking Danny.

I agree...so it will be hard, but I am going to see if I can try and swallow my fanboyism on this one=)

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#91 Posted by Wyldsong (9635 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1@cdiddyman911:

Alright, I hate to have to pick between the two of you, and I'll be honest with my IF bias, as I really do feel Danny would take the fight, but I am going to try and put that bias aside, and judge this on the merits of the debate, and who I felt made the stronger case. Guys, you both put on a hell of a show here. There is no doubting that, but surprisingly, no matter my personal views and bias, cosmic sold me by barest of margins on his argument.

cdiddy, I wish I could put my finger on where your side fell short for me, but I can't pinpoint it, as you did a phenomenal job against someone who has been around the block quite a few times in these CaVs. All I can I say is keep up with what you are doing bro, as you definitely have some skills my friend.

Sorry cosmic, I am not stroking your ego, so get over it=P

I kid, I kid=)

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#92 Posted by Funsiized (3882 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Gets my vote. The Tk used to upset Danny's superior striking strength and speed is a great argument, combined with Betsy's own physical abilities convinced me. Great points from both sides and a great debate.

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#93 Posted by Lvenger (36262 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll spend some time reading this debate through and come back to vote on it later :)

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#94 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: @cdiddyman911:

This is a great match up, not only for the two users involved but also the characters. Frankly, at first I couldn't recognize a clear winner, so taking a second read, I must say that CA1 was a little bit superior with his arguments. But nice job for boths, one tip, if I may, would focus more on arguments than scans, to improve your debating..

keep up the good work gentlemen.

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#95 Posted by Lvenger (36262 posts) - - Show Bio

An amazing job from both debaters and Cdidyman gave an impressive account of Iron Fist's capabilities. His use of evidence was provided quite well. But he lacked sufficient force in countering Cosmicallyaware's superb rebuttals. His knowledge of Betty's abilities and skills coupled with relevant applications to Iron Fist's abilities were brilliantly played in the debate and employed at the most effective times to rebuke his opponent's points. This happened throughout the debate and CA's treatment of Psyclocke was overall more impressive than Cdiddy's presentation of Iron Fist's feats. Thus, I give my vote to @cosmicallyaware1 for this CAV.

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#96 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (4461 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1:

This would be a great fight based on the arguments you two have made. I'm amazed that Marvel never had these two tangle up before. Joe Quesada bothers me...

Anyhoo, TK is a tough hurdle to overcome. It's difficult to combat someone who can defeat you from across the room (or even from across the street) without throwing a single punch, so count me as 1 vote for @cosmicallyaware1. But to your credit @cdiddyman911, you represented in this CaV. Props to you both!

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#97 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

But he lacked sufficient force in countering Cosmicallyaware's superb rebuttals. His knowledge of Betty's abilities and skills coupled with relevant applications to Iron Fist's abilities were brilliantly played in the debate and employed at the most effective times to rebuke his opponent's points. This happened throughout the debate and CA's treatment of Psyclocke was overall more impressive than Cdiddy's presentation of Iron Fist's feats

wow. I am honored by your kind words, coming from you that means a lot!

@higorm:

one tip, if I may, would focus more on arguments than scans, to improve your debating.

thank you sir, you are correct as always. I will work on that. Thank you for your input! greatly appreciated!!

@oceanmaster21: @iragexcudder: thanks for the votes guys!!!

@cdiddyman911: dude, awesome responses here.

So the vote count as it stands (i like doing a tally thing to keep track):

cosmicallyaware1: 9

cdiddyman: 0

Hey guy's I'll refrain from voting. Too much of an IF fanboy to give an unbiased vote. Cos did amazingly but I just can't buy Betsy taking Danny.

understood my man, thanks!

@wyldsong said:

@cosmicallyaware1@cdiddyman911:

Alright, I hate to have to pick between the two of you, and I'll be honest with my IF bias, as I really do feel Danny would take the fight, but I am going to try and put that bias aside, and judge this on the merits of the debate, and who I felt made the stronger case. Guys, you both put on a hell of a show here. There is no doubting that, but surprisingly, no matter my personal views and bias, cosmic sold me by barest of margins on his argument.

cdiddy, I wish I could put my finger on where your side fell short for me, but I can't pinpoint it, as you did a phenomenal job against someone who has been around the block quite a few times in these CaVs. All I can I say is keep up with what you are doing bro, as you definitely have some skills my friend.

Sorry cosmic, I am not stroking your ego, so get over it=P

I kid, I kid=)

much appreciated my , man. Your comments mean a lot.........honored by the breakdown. Comin from a member of the HOF that means a lot. I gotta make sure that I'm puttin in substantial work for next year's nominations right?

@cosmicallyaware1: Gets my vote. The Tk used to upset Danny's superior striking strength and speed is a great argument, combined with Betsy's own physical abilities convinced me. Great points from both sides and a great debate.

In all honesty that was my main (and only) counter against the IF here.......thanks man. vote from you means a lot as well.....