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#1 Edited by Aqualion0 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

Invisible Woman , Susan Storm , Mistress of Force Fields

Represented by UnseenForce/Invisible_Boy
Represented by UnseenForce/Invisible_Boy
No Caption Provided

Marvel Girl , Jean Grey , Telekinetic Goddess

Represented by Aqualion
Represented by Aqualion

Battle Condition and Rules

  • Both combatants are in character , but fully serious , going all out and willing to kill each other.
  • This is battle of 616 Jean (without Phoenix) and 616 Sue Storm , non canon feats aren't allowed.
  • Standart Gear and Equipment.
  • Win by K.O , death or incapacitation.
  • Location - Indestructible Earth , starting 15 feet apart.
  • Comment if you want to get tagged and don't be harsh to us (Both of us are beginner in CaV).
  • Vote for better debater with reasonable arguments , not for character you like and support.

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#2 Posted by Aqualion0 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Widowbite123 (357 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#5 Posted by PyroFN (5626 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, tag. I will see what they bring.

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#6 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15213 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: I will keep an eye on this, sorry our cav didn't work out

Online
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#7 Posted by comic_book_fan (10975 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me this should be fun

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#8 Posted by Trixie (960 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag. Jean looks like a witch in that picture btw.

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#9 Edited by Invisible_boy03 (23 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: Hi I'm back, apparently new accounts on comicvine are being banned because of scammers so that's why this is my 3 account after my other 2 got banned, hopefully this one doesn't but anyhow I'm just here for this CaV

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#10 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15843 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#11 Posted by Invisible_boy03 (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Susan Storm aka The Invisible Woman

No Caption Provided

Introduction:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Opener:

I have a few requests before I start, I would appreciate it if we avoid using scans from alternate universes and scaling from Rachel, Psylocke etc...

Counters:

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In the first scan Sue blocks Tp with a micro layer of force around her head and in the second one Jean is unable to sense Sue via telepathy through her field and Jean's Tk can't pass through Sue's force field (I realize Jean is weakened in the scan but all I'm saying is that Jean's powers can't and won't directly effect Sue.

Defense:

I personally believe that Sue's force fields can tank anything Jean can dish out

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

1) Sue shields a massive spaceship from thousands of beings that literally eats reality

2) Sue blocks a blast from a celestial

3)Sue protects a ship from the Big Bang

4) Sue's force field tanks an explosion that destroys time and space

5)Three celestials (That were able to merge together and oneshotted Galactus) are unable to break Sue's field, momentarily at least

6&7) Sue briefly holds her force field inside an incursion, the same incursion that instantly destroyed the 616 and the ultimate universes and with it most of it's characters

Offense:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

1&2) Sue stomps She Hulk, Thing, Absorbing Man and Titania at the same time (All these are Hulk level characters)

3) Knocks Namor to the ground with one hit (Namor has traded blows with Sentry, Hulk and Hurcules)

4)Oneshots Gamora (Gamora shrugs of re-entry into planets)

5) Sue turns adamantium into dust

6&7) Sends groups of Avengers back with force fields (Hulk, She Hulk, Thor and Luke Cage were in these groups)

8) Punctures Galactus' armour and possibly his force field (Galactus casually tanks the moon colliding into him)

Conclusion:

It's save to say that Jean isn't getting through Sue's force field, so all I need to see is proof that Jean can defend herself from Sue

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#13 Posted by Aqualion0 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15843 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a start.

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#15 Posted by Aqualion0 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey-Summers , Most Powerful Psychic In The World

No Caption Provided

'' I'm always Jean. And I'm always the Phoenix. I died. I scattered in a trillion directions. And then started to pull together again, outside the White Hot Room. But I'm starting to see now. Parts of me... Parts of me never came home.''

A. Omega Level Psi | Introduction

Origin and Powers

Jean Grey is the second child college professor John Grey and his wife Elaine. Growing up with her older sister, Sara, Jean had a happy childhood that abruptly came to an end when her best friend, Annie Richardson, was hit by a car. Barely ten years old, Jean held her dying friend in her arms. In that instant, her mutant power kicked in and she unwittingly read Annie‘s mind, as she slowly slipped away to death. Even though she didn’t understand her telepathy, Jean embraced Annie’s soul and tried to protect it from the darkness that was closing in, but there was nothing she could do. Annie died, and it seemed that a part of Jean died as well. Afterwards, she became a withdrawn, almost haunted child, and none of the specialists that her parents consulted over the next three years were able to get Jean out of her depression. That changed when somebody told them of Professor Charles Xavier. He discovered that the girl was a mutant and not able to cope with her telepathy yet. Therefore, he decided to mentally block her access to it until she was mature enough to properly control it. He also helped Jean to realize her potential as a telekinetic and, while she continued to live with her parents, she would regularly meet with Xavier for training sessions, which technically makes her his first student. From time to time, Xavier would temporarily remove Jean’s mental blocks to see whether she was able to handle her telepathy yet. In one of these occasions, Jean established mental contact with a teenager living in an orphanage several hundred miles away. At the time, neither Jean nor the professor could have known that this boy by the name of Scott Summers would eventually hold a very special place in their hearts. Years later, when the professor had already recruited four other mutants, one of them being Scott Summers aka Cyclops, Jean officially enrolled at Xavier’s school and joined the X-Men under the codename Marvel Girl.

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X-Men Origins : Jean Grey

Jean's psionic powers include telepathic abilities to sense, broadcast and detect thought patterns, alter the physical or mental perceptions of others, manipulate the functions of the human body, cast human minds into the astral plane, and telekinetic abilities to levitate herself or other objects, propel or manipulate them however she wishes, stimulate individual molecules to create heat, and generate concussive force or protective shields. She's been stated to be an omega level mutant , telekinetic and telepath which obviously implies vast potential of her powers.

B. Omega Level Psi | Mind Over Matter

Feats

Since I don't know where to start I'm going to open debating by feat which fits in every category.

Yeah , you guessed it correctly , undoubtedly the best showing of Jean Grey which occurred in X-Men Unlimited #13. Let's have a plain breakdown of scans : Binary (Carol Danvers amped with a lot of energy , it's also very important to mention that she wasn't jobber and mid-tier feminazi during her classic days) tries to stabilize star which was prematurely going to supernova while she is inside of frigging White Hole. For starters , White hole is the reverse of a black hole and can not be entered from the outside. Apparently , Jean flies at MFTL speeds (You ask me : ''How do you know that?''. Well , narration says that she is moving at hyperspace which requires at least FTL perception and movement.) , actually enters White Hole and encases Carol in psionic field to cut off her from energies of star. Unfortunately , Binary somehow has been possessed but Jean handles her using TP. Then Surfer blows up core of engine (this engine was the one affecting star) and Jean alongside with Carol gets backlashed out of it. Shockwave alone was so devastating , it was felt throughout the universe. Both women survived it and in addition of that , none of them had a single scratch due to Jean's TK shield.

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The takeaway from this - Jean has FTL+ speed , is capable of creating psi armor/shield which can withstand star level attacks/pressure/explosion and telepathically manipulated casual planet buster character. At first this seems to be an outlier but after seeing other feats , you are probably gonna change your mind and feat itself becomes more legit

Combined TK & TP Energy

This is one of the most haxy thing Marvel Girl has to offer for Invisible Woman. Even depowered and not able to use TK , she was capable of unleashing psyche firebird - Phoenix (Just a name , not actual one). Phoenix overwhelms superhuman Neo who has telepathic abilities including resistance of it.

Uncanny X-Men #382
Uncanny X-Men #382

She can also use it for restoring purposes, as shown here she carries injured Cyclops for long distance and telekinetically keeps apart Sentinel's nanotech. Not overly impressive but she is obviously affecting Cyke's internal organs.

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X-Men Vol.2 #70

Now let's see how she uses it in actual action , against named characters. Turns into pure energy and blasts away fully charged Iron Man. Tony says that if he takes another hit he is gonna die.

X-Men Vol.2 #65
X-Men Vol.2 #65

This is quite impressive considering fact that armor Tony is wearing is Prometheum/Model CE-1. Keep in mind this version is easily superior to previous ones and has gallery full of trading blows with mid and high tiers.

  • Scan 1/2 : Knocks out Mindless Hulk. Incarnation of Hulk who cracked armor of Onslaught.
  • Scan 3/4 : Fights against The Thing and takes hit from him.
  • Scan 5 : Energyless , survives blow from bloodlusted Ragnarok (Clone of Thor)
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Enraged Jean manifests Phoenix Raptor which represents peak of her telepathic abilities , No shields , natural or magical can withstand assault of it. Then deals damage to attackers on both - physical and psychic plane.

Uncanny X-Men #383
Uncanny X-Men #383

Time-displaced version of Jean could use psychic siphoning to amp her TK and physical characteristics. She drains psi energy from entire planet , Terrax , Galactus and Phoenix. Then successfully hurts and staggers Galactus with single punch. Even big G himself is impressed from this and leaves planet. Staggering someone is not impressive at all , but absorbing energy from planetary level characters and from entire population of planet is indeed high-caliber feat.

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Generations : Phoenix and Jean Grey #1

Furthermore , she's stolen psychic energy from confident Gladiator , blasted him away and survived high-speed collision resulting in double KO.

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Guardians of The Galaxy (2013) #13

Last feat in this section. Poison Queen kills Jean and takes over her dead physical body , making her soulless symbiote. After that Jean is forced to fight against her teammates but instead of that she manages to regain her body and psyche , proceeding to kill every single member of The Hive on global scale. The Hive was full of alternate versions of villains/heroes including Thanos , Dr.Doom , Gladiator and Poison Queen herself.

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Venomized (2018) #5

4th scan is showing how Jean claims that she pulled back her body after it was destroyed which makes this feat worth of mentioning. Basically , she has psionic physiology and considering this poisons were disintegrating their victims I think it's safe to assume that Jean can reconstitute from mere psyche after her physical body dies.

Shields

Greatest thing about Jean is her massively OP telekinetic shields. Let's be honest here , Sue simply doesn't have enough damage potency to slightly crack her shield.

Starting with most casual one , She protects entire X-Men and X-Factor roster from Shadow King's attack using Legion's psyche which effortlesly busted large Island in process.

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Uncanny X-Men #280

Next , Jean's shielded herself from eye beams of pissed off Stranger.

X-Men Forever #6
X-Men Forever #6

Stranger is Galactus level entity and cosmic being with casual planetary level energy projection. You can also see damaged Juggernaut in this scan after Stranger hit him with eye beams.

And most impressive thing about it is that , Jean's TK shield before this issue managed to withstand extreme temperatures generated by Iceman. Why I found this so impressive? Iceman during X-Men Forever storyline was obviously coordinating at his max potential and omega level. Thing he does in first scan is freezing Celestial AI ship called Prosh. Not only he freezes it , but generates enough force to shut down Prosh , stop Stranger's virus and merge with entire ship.

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X-Men Forever #5

Conclusion - Jean's shield withstood temperature probably greater than Abzero and force enough to make planetary level being unconscious.

Here her barrier withstands an attack from serious Black Bolt and immobilizes his hand with TK. This is worth mentioning because Black Bolt was strong enough to trade blows with classic Hulk.

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X-Men : Red annual #1

She's stopped shockwaves created from Hulk smashing the ground.

X-Men First Class Vol.2 #5
X-Men First Class Vol.2 #5

Shield withstands a punch from Abomination , another brick character classifying at Hulk's tier.

Savage Hulk #2
Savage Hulk #2

And finally , aside from pinky shields , she's also capable of making energy weapons and objects. Teen Jean uses this ability to protect Quentin Quire , Emma Frost and other Jeans from Phoenix force. She manifests a psychic sword and shield to deflect its cosmic fire breath. Phoenix's cosmic fire is pretty crazy and I don't think scaling is needed to prove that.

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Jean Grey #10

Honestly, with all of these feats I've showed , I do believe that Jean has solid advantage over Sue's attack potency. Seriously , she's gonna need ton of high showings to deal with Jean's TK shields , let alone rest of her defensive abilities.

Telepathy

Another aspect where Jean shines. Basically , her telepathy is uncounterable for you. I mean , Jean is an omega level mutant , Psionic of highest order and most powerful telepath on earth , outclassing planetary level TPs like Xavier , Emma Frost , Psylocke , etc. This is were we get one of the best and overwhelming feats. As the side effect of her ressurection , Jean was subconsciously creating psychic manifestations around the world in Phoenix Resurrection storyline.

During that time Jean was at moon and OHKO'ed every single character with psionic/psychic power set. It's also worth mentioning , Matthew Rosenberg , writer of this series stated that Jean broke through shell Phoenix created around her.

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Phoenix Resurrection : The Return of Jean Grey #2

Moving on , another planetary level feat. Newly resurrected Jean scans entire planet to gather information about world and their opinion about mutants. She did it casually.

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X-Men : Red #1

Has enough mental pressure to force savage Hulk to turn back into Banner. This is an utterly remarkable feat , if we take on Hulk's TP resistance in bronze age. Even classic Doctor Strange couldn't get into his mind.

Uncanny X-Men #66
Uncanny X-Men #66

Adult Jean's spirit/astral manifestation could cloak herself from Doctor Strange , Scarlet Witch and Emma Frost. In last scan you can see how she takes over White Queen's body right after she controlled Teen Jean. Emma is omega class mutant and has demonstrated planet level TP in various occasions. Despite that fact , Jean always bested her at psionic clash.

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Jean Grey #6-7

Jean tells Rogue how she constantly maintains telepathic shield from millions of people around and after Rogue gets recognized by crowd she wipes out their minds from Rogue's and her presence.

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X-Men Unlimited Vol.1 #31

Notable feat. Jean influences Juggernaut's mind with painful memories and effortlesly KOs him.

In fact , helmet makes Cain almost immune to telepathy , so immune that Xavier and Captain Universe couldn't probe his mind. Jean still managed to TP him though.

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X-Men Unlimited Vol.1 #44

She can also use psychic inhibitors to prevent superpowered people from using their powers.

X-Men Unlimited Vol.1 #27
X-Men Unlimited Vol.1 #27

Momentarily freezes Cyclops in place , stops his powers from functioning via psychic hold and releases Scott from Apocalypse's mental possession

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X-Men The Search for Cylcops Vol.1 #4

Jean turns off mind of MeMe and frees his victims in process. MeMe was mutant with the ability to absorb living things into him and drastically enhance his powers.

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Uncanny X-Men #292

She's very skilled at illusions. Here uses this trick against The Thing and restrains Ben with psionic chains , easily incapacitating him.

Contest of Champions II #4
Contest of Champions II #4

Current Uncanny X-Men run shows how Jean gives Nate Gray psychic pain of people he killed and frees Horsemen of Salvation from his mind control. Nate Gray during this run was amped with Celestial Life Seed , basically making him low-teambuster tier and even Psylocke & Cuckoos admitted his superiority over them.

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Uncanny X-Men Vol.5 #10

All-in-all , I'd place Jean as planetary++ level telepath. She has more than enough TP power to mindrape Sue to death without much effort.

Force of TK

Shortest section and IMO it doesn't need explanation at all. Section where I'm gonna show how Jean throws people and goes omega level TK in their butt.

First scan that comes in my mind is fight against Hulk. Teen Jean quickly levitates Savage Hulk in the air and knocks him back. After 4-5 panels Hulk returns but together with Iceman she replicates feat and throws him away for long distance.

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X-Men First Class Vol.2 #5

Uses her TK to lift and hold up 50 tons of scattered rubble of Genoshan school.

New X-Men Vol. 1 #116
New X-Men Vol. 1 #116

That's not her upper limit. During freshman year in O5 Marvel Girl briefly holded a billion tons of rock back , literally stopping mountain sized avalanche. Despite the fact she did it briefly it's still worth mentioning because her adult and newest incarnations are massively powerful compared to this one.

Uncanny X-Men: First Class Vol.1 #2
Uncanny X-Men: First Class Vol.1 #2

Blasts away super-dense and durable reptile (Seamus Mellencamp) from Mont Saint-Michel island (France) to Pyrenees (border of France and Spain) , possibly knocking him out in process.

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Uncanny X-Men #300

Unconscious Jean vs The Avengers including Captain America , Black Widow , Hercules , Namor and Black Knight. She unleashes Psi blasts and forcefully pushes them back. What's impressive is that Jean was doing this subconsciously , not when she had complete control over powers.

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The Avengers Vol.1 #263

Another option is psychic shout. Jean uses it to knock down giant Kraken and then stabs it with TK empowered Trident. Kraken is sea monster capable of wrestling with Namor.

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Jean Grey Vol.1 #3

In fact this ability is so strong it even hurted Phoenix Emma Frost and sent her flying.

X-Men: Phoenix – Endsong #5
X-Men: Phoenix – Endsong #5

After time displaced Marvel Girl accidentally scans Scarlet Witch , she learns about HoM event and blasts away Rogue, SW and Thor. Then after Thor warns her she sends him flying away.

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All New X-Men Vol. 1 #12

Jean also has superhuman reflexes and combat speed which fluctuates from subsonic to massively hypersonic but since you didn't mention any speed feats for Inv.Woman I'm gonna start countering you.

Addressing Counters

In the first scan Sue blocks Tp with a micro layer of force around her head and in the second one Jean is unable to sense Sue via telepathy through her field and Jean's Tk can't pass through Sue's force field (I realize Jean is weakened in the scan but all I'm saying is that Jean's powers can't and won't directly effect Sue.

You contributed two feats of Sue being able to resist telepathy but main issue is that none of this characters (Jean is indeed weakened and restricted as you stated) are close to planet level. Nowadays , even Captain America has good amount of TP resistance and you literally didn't show anything to suggest that Jean won't be able to affect Inv.Woman directly. Here's what Emma Frost did to her through force field :

No Caption Provided

Sue shields a massive spaceship from thousands of beings that literally eats reality

They didn't ''literally eat'' reality , as opening page stated they were tearing space and time which is most likely hyperbole. Though , even if we take on this seriously feat is still unimpressive because Ben Grimm survived their attacks (They obviously weren't attacking with full power) and Invisible Woman shielded ship for likely 9-10 seconds. Staggering/knocking back these beings is a thing Storm was also capable of doing. Irrelevant feat.

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FF Vol.1 #550

Sue blocks a blast from a celestial

The reason behind of it is Sue's odd connection with hyperspace and as explained by Nathaniel Richards her powers are originating from home of the Celestials. In other words Sue manipulates cosmic substance which makes up Celestials. That doesn't really mean anything.

Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #400
Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #400

Sue protects a ship from the Big Bang

I need context. Did her shield really tanked universal level explosion? Seems to be an outlier.

Sue's force field tanks an explosion that destroys time and space

You should start giving more info about feats or at least drop comic & issue for me to check. Not quite easy as you say. During that time , Reed amped F4's powers to ridiculous levels and she had aid of alternate Susan Storm who was also amped with same machine. Not applicable to our battle.

FF 2013 #16
FF 2013 #16

Three celestials (That were able to merge together and oneshotted Galactus) are unable to break Sue's field, momentarily at least

Already debunked.

Sue briefly holds her force field inside an incursion, the same incursion that instantly destroyed the 616 and the ultimate universes and with it most of it's characters

Probably most reasonable feat you provided against Jean. Still it's not a thing any S-tier character wouldn't be able to do. For instance Hickman's Hyperion replicated holding incursion in Avengers #3 and firepower/hax Jean has is well beyond planetary level.

Sue stomps She Hulk, Thing, Absorbing Man and Titania at the same time (All these are Hulk level characters)

Stomping and dealing with brute isn't game changer here. Jean has many tools like force field , illusions , psi drain , etc. to avoid physically going toe-to-toe with her force fields.

Knocks Namor to the ground with one hit

Completely useless. Namor wasn't ready for that hit and her mere punches aren't enough to bypass Jean's force field which has multiple planetary and star level durability feats.

Oneshots Gamora (Gamora shrugs of re-entry into planets)

When did she one-shot ? Scan only shows how she drops invisible object on Gamora's head while Sue states that she might be controlled. Not to mention that Gamora is frigging mid-tier at her best.

Sue turns adamantium into dust

Proof? Can't see where it says Adamantium.

Sends groups of Avengers back with force fields (Hulk, She Hulk, Thor and Luke Cage were in these groups)

Even teen Jean could do that. Nonetheless , pushing back & throwing around characters doesn't mean she has enough dc potency to harm them.

Punctures Galactus' armour and possibly his force field (Galactus casually tanks the moon colliding into him)

Except it wasn't 616 canon version of Galactus which makes feat mediocre. Unless you show me specifically that version of Galactus tanking moon colliding on him my claim stands.

The Summary

  • Jean has enough damage output and hax to not only harm Susan but literally vaporize her.
  • Sue's force fields can be bypassed and you showed zero evidence which proves otherwise.
  • Jean can use illusions to avoid physical encounter with her.
  • Jean can drain Psi energy and use it against her.
  • Jean can literally mindrape Susan without much effort.
  • Jean can blast through her stomach.
  • Jean can give her experience of painful memories , instantly incaping her.
  • Jean can turn off Sue's powers.
  • Sue simply doesn't have enough attack potency to break through psi shields.
No Caption Provided

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#17 Posted by Toratorn (6295 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#18 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15843 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesomesauce.

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#19 Posted by IntoTheVoid (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, i have a couple of things i want to correct when the debate is over.

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#20 Posted by comic_book_fan (10975 posts) - - Show Bio

@intothevoid:i wonder if its the same stuff i want to point out.

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#21 Posted by IntoTheVoid (1295 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by geekryan (3752 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#23 Posted by JSDoctor (1397 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#24 Posted by Rac95 (4159 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#26 Edited by Invisible_Boy05 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Susan Storm aka The Invisible Woman

No Caption Provided

Wow , You've really outdone yourself, I certainly have my work cut out, You posted Jean'' whole respect thread...lol

#Counters:

Yeah , you guessed it correctly , undoubtedly the best showing of Jean Grey which occurred in X-Men Unlimited #13. Let's have a plain breakdown of scans : Binary (Carol Danvers amped with a lot of energy , it's also very important to mention that she wasn't jobber and mid-tier feminazi during her classic days) tries to stabilize star which was prematurely going to supernova while she is inside of frigging White Hole. For starters , White hole is the reverse of a black hole and can not be entered from the outside. Apparently , Jean flies at MFTL speeds (You ask me : ''How do you know that?''. Well , narration says that she is moving at hyperspace which requires at least FTL perception and movement.) , actually enters White Hole and encases Carol in psionic field to cut off her from energies of star. Unfortunately , Binary somehow has been possessed but Jean handles her using TP. Then Surfer blows up core of engine (this engine was the one affecting star) and Jean alongside with Carol gets backlashed out of it. Shockwave alone was so devastating , it was felt throughout the universe. Both women survived it and in addition of that , none of them had a single scratch due to Jean's TK shield.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The takeaway from this - Jean has FTL+ speed , is capable of creating psi armor/shield which can withstand star level attacks/pressure/explosion and telepathically manipulated casual planet buster character. At first this seems to be an outlier but after seeing other feats , you are probably gonna change your mind and feat itself becomes more legit

Since Jean hasn't demonstrated power or speed on this level ever since, this qualifies as an outlier

She can also use it for restoring purposes, as shown here she carries injured Cyclops for long distance and telekinetically keeps apart Sentinel's nanotech. Not overly impressive but she is obviously affecting Cyke's internal organs.

This is irrelevant to this battle (unless Jean could actually effect Sue's organs)

Now let's see how she uses it in actual action , against named characters. Turns into pure energy and blasts away fully charged Iron Man. Tony says that if he takes another hit he is gonna die.

This is quite impressive considering fact that armor Tony is wearing is Prometheum/Model CE-1. Keep in mind this version is easily superior to previous ones and has gallery full of trading blows with mid and high tiers.

Pretty impressive...

Enraged Jean manifests Phoenix Raptor which represents peak of her telepathic abilities , No shields , natural or magical can withstand assault of it. Then deals damage to attackers on both - physical and psychic plane.

Time-displaced version of Jean could use psychic siphoning to amp her TK and physical characteristics. She drains psi energy from entire planet , Terrax , Galactus and Phoenix. Then successfully hurts and staggers Galactus with single punch. Even big G himself is impressed from this and leaves planet. Staggering someone is not impressive at all , but absorbing energy from planetary level characters and from entire population of planet is indeed high-caliber feat.

I agree, but since Tarrax, Galactus and Phoenix aren't in this battle the feat isn't relivent, and yes Jean could always absorb the earth's psi energy but there's no proof of how much it will amp her or if she'll do this in character

Last feat in this section. Poison Queen kills Jean and takes over her dead physical body , making her soulless symbiote. After that Jean is forced to fight against her teammates but instead of that she manages to regain her body and psyche , proceeding to kill every single member of The Hive on global scale. The Hive was full of alternate versions of villains/heroes including Thanos , Dr.Doom , Gladiator and Poison Queen herself.

4th scan is showing how Jean claims that she pulled back her body after it was destroyed which makes this feat worth of mentioning. Basically , she has psionic physiology and considering this poisons were disintegrating their victims I think it's safe to assume that Jean can reconstitute from mere psyche after her physical body dies.

This is pretty OP, but Sue can render Jean unconscious via KO, suffocation ect. She doesn't necessarily have to destroy her body.

And most impressive thing about it is that , Jean's TK shield before this issue managed to withstand extreme temperatures generated by Iceman. Why I found this so impressive? Iceman during X-Men Forever storyline was obviously coordinating at his max potential and omega level. Thing he does in first scan is freezing Celestial AI ship called Prosh. Not only he freezes it , but generates enough force to shut down Prosh , stop Stranger's virus and merge with entire ship.

This is impressive and all but Jean blocking extreme temperatures has nothing to do with this battle since Sue's powers have nothing to do with temperatures.

As for telepathy

You contributed two feats of Sue being able to resist telepathy but main issue is that none of this characters (Jean is indeed weakened and restricted as you stated) are close to planet level. Nowadays , even Captain America has good amount of TP resistance and you literally didn't show anything to suggest that Jean won't be able to affect Inv.Woman directly. Here's what Emma Frost did to her through force field :

The thing is Sue's fields doesn't give her tp resistance (like Cap having resistance), they block tp, in other words it keeps tp out and the Emma scan can't really be used since Sue didn't even know Emma was present and there is no proof that Sue protected herself and Thing with an enclosed force bubble, since she was putting a wall of force between Wolverine and Thing, she wouldn't surround herself and Ben with a whole bubble for that

No Caption Provided

Even her Marvel.com bio states her force fields prevent tp from effecting her, so Jean's tp is useless in this battle

Jean also has superhuman reflexes and combat speed which fluctuates from subsonic to massively hypersonic but since you didn't mention any speed feats for Inv.Woman I'm gonna start countering you.

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Sue's fields protects her even while unconscious, they can activate automatically and they even protect her while she's asleep so outspeeding Sue isn't really possible

The reason behind of it is Sue's odd connection with hyperspace and as explained by Nathaniel Richards her powers are originating from home of the Celestials. In other words Sue manipulates cosmic substance which makes up Celestials. That doesn't really mean anything.

Nathaniel stated because Sue manipulates energy from Hyperspace she is able to penetrate the armour of a Celestial at full concentration, He never stated that Sue would have an easier time blocking blasts from Celestials.

Probably most reasonable feat you provided against Jean. Still it's not a thing any S-tier character wouldn't be able to do. For instance Hickman's Hyperion replicated holding incursion in Avengers #3 and firepower/hax Jean has is well beyond planetary level.

Tbh I don't think any other S-Tier character would be able to replicate this feat since this incursion basically oneshotted everything and everyone in the 616 and ultimate universes including high-level characters

Stomping and dealing with brute isn't game changer here. Jean has many tools like force field , illusions , psi drain , etc. to avoid physically going toe-to-toe with her force fields.

This feat shows Sue's offensive force that Jean's force fields has to block physically, and Jean needs to have access to Sue's brain to use illusions or psi-drain and since Sue's ffs block telepathic influence so it's not gonna happen

Completely useless. Namor wasn't ready for that hit and her mere punches aren't enough to bypass Jean's force field which has multiple planetary and star level durability feats

Namor doesn't need to activate his durability it's always on and Namor did take hits from more planetary and star level characters than Jean's force field, like Sentry, Hyperion and Thanos

Except it wasn't 616 canon version of Galactus which makes feat mediocre. Unless you show me specifically that version of Galactus tanking moon colliding on him my claim stands

FF#491. I don't know where Galactus collided into the moon but in this same issue this Galactust tanked an all out Silver Surfer's blasts without a scratch and to me that's better than any of Jean's force field feats

  • Jean has enough damage output and hax to not only harm Susan but literally vaporize her.

Maybe without her shield but it's never going to happen if Sue's in her force field

  • Sue's force fields can be bypassed and you showed zero evidence which proves otherwise.

Sue has already blocked Jean tp and tk

  • Jean can use illusions to avoid physical encounter with her.

Jean needs to effect Sue's mind in order for her to create illusions and it's not happening with Sue's force field active

  • Jean can drain Psi energy and use it against her.

Jean is going to need a lot of psi energy to break Sue's force fields and Sue isn't exactly going to sit there wait for Jean to absorb psi-energy

  • Jean can literally mindrape Susan without much effort.

Not happening with Sue's force field active

  • Jean can blast through her stomach

Jean has to break Sue's force field first before she can do that and I doubt she can

  • Jean can give her experience of painful memories , instantly incaping her.

Again not happening with Sue's force field active

  • Jean can turn off Sue's powers.

Sue's force field

  • Sue simply doesn't have enough attack potency to break through psi shields

I agree, sort of... But Jean's force field is going to break long before Jean can break Sue's force field

Here are some more feats to further proof that Jean isn't ever breaking Sue's force fields

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1) Sue momentarily blocks the blast of Doom with the power of a Watcher (Watchers are stated to be capable of destroying solar systems)

2) Envelopes a city with a force field

3) Blocks Ragnarok's (Thor's clone) lightning

4) Restraines a group of Avengers (She Hulk, Captain Marvel, Blue Marvel are in this group)

5) Contains a Gamma bomb (Gamma bombs have enough power to kill Hulk)

6) Sue's force field tanks multiple strikes from WWHulk

7) Sue has contained Johnny's supernova blast (Johnny's Nova blast is asahot asaan exploding star)

8) Blocks an anraged Blackbolt and Namor's punches

9) Blocks Blackheart's blast (Mephisto's son)

10) Casually tanks a blast from Silver Surfer

11) Force field tanks blows from Gladiator (Gladiator has shattered planets with his blows)

*Sorry but I don't know most of the issues of these scans are from

#Conclusion:

I don't see Jean ever breaking Sue's force fields but I can see Sue eventually breaking Jean's force field or Sue could just create a force field around Jean and wait until she passess out via lack of air if Sue isn't able to break Jean's force field, either way Sue isn't loosing this one plus Sue can turn invisible or simply blind Jean and Sue's powers are invisible after all...

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#28 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6742 posts) - - Show Bio

Can I add that Jean didn't have telepathy at all when she got out of the cocoon. Reeds machine damaged it so there was no telepathy for Sue to block. That is a non feat for Sue in regards to telepathy. Jean thought Sue was a robot because she didn't know her telepathy was gone.

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#29 Posted by slickfront53 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

invisible lady win

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#30 Posted by PyroFN (5626 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: @invisible_boy03: Ugh, so much want to join, but I’m here to judge the best debater...I’m only going over counters since it will be a good way to showing how well they shut others down. Also, I may ask for clarification if something doesn’t make snes or is too vague to decipher. I have my own thoughts on who in the battle should win, but that’s not why I’m here according to the rules.

First Aqualions side:

•“You contributed two feats of Sue being able to resist telepathy but main issue is that none of this characters (Jean is indeed weakened and restricted as you stated) are close to planet level. Nowadays , even Captain America has good amount of TP resistance and you literally didn't show anything to suggest that Jean won't be able to affect Inv.Woman directly”

Great debunk. If Emma Frost can get through and none of the telepaths before have been capable of planetary feats, that infers a limit to Invisible Woman’s shields.

•”Staggering/knocking back these beings is a thing Storm was also capable of doing”

So, does that mean Storms attack was effortless and therefore, these things are brittle? Or is it to imply that if Storm can hold these things back, then anyone could?

•”Except it wasn't 616 canon version of Galactus which makes feat mediocre”

You mean this one? Then where is it from?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/81711/1713991-840871_invisiblewoman7_super.jpg

•”For instance Hickman's Hyperion replicated holding incursion in Avengers #3 and firepower/hax Jean has is well beyond planetary level.“

So, are you saying that Jean could replicate either Sues or Hyperions feats?

Now for invisible boy:

•”Since Jean hasn't demonstrated power or speed on this level ever since, this qualifies as an outlier”

So, which part? All of it? Only Jeans shields? Jeans multitasking? Jeans travel speed?

•”unless Jean could actually effect Sue's organs”

That is exactly what they were saying. I’d go further, but again, not what I’m here for.

•”I agree, but since Tarrax, Galactus and Phoenix aren't in this battle the feat isn't relevant”

Great point! Without those factors, Jeans psychic leeching ability is greatly reduced. That said, are you insinuating that there are no telepaths on Earth as these two fight?

•”This is impressive and all but Jean blocking extreme temperatures has nothing to do with this battle since Sue's powers have nothing to do with temperatures.”

Good point, but what about the force of Icemans attack that Aqualion mentioned? Are you insinuating Bobby’s powers solely temperature based? Or that Bobby’s temeperature affect theforce of his abilities? Or are you insinuating Bobby’s attack has less force than his temperature control?

•”the Emma scan can't really be used since Sue didn't even know Emma was present and there is no proof that Sue protected herself and Thing with an enclosed force bubble, since she was putting a wall of force between Wolverine and Thing, she wouldn't surround herself and Ben with a whole bubble for that”

Interesting point. Let’s see how Aqualion deals with this one. I already know what I’d say. Good food for thought.

•”Sue's fields protects her even while unconscious, they can activate automatically and they even protect her while she's asleep so outspeeding Sue isn't really possible”

So, are you saying Sues shields are always on? Are you saying Sues shields are alive and activate subconsciously like Storms does? Or are you saying that a KO isn’t the end of the battle? If you meant the last one, then why mention how Sue doesn’t need to destroy Jeans body, just suffocate her, which would result in a KO?

•”He never stated that Sue would have an easier time blocking blasts from Celestials.”

Oh, good point.

•”Sue has already blocked Jean tp and tk”

When has Jeans tp been blocked? There two encounters that I’m thinking of, and in both cases, Jeans tp was lost. When did this happen?

Keep it up guys. This is getting good.

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#31 Edited by Invisible_Boy05 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

Since Jean hasn't demonstrated power or speed on this level ever since, this qualifies as an outlier”

So, which part? All of it? Only Jeans shields? Jeans multitasking? Jeans travel speed?

Jean's shield and travel speed

unless Jean could actually effect Sue's organs”

That is exactly what they were saying. I’d go further, but again, not what I’m here for.

With Sue's force field Jean isn't going to effect Sue's organs, since Sue already blocked Jean's tk

”I agree, but since Tarrax, Galactus and Phoenix aren't in this battle the feat isn't relevant”

Great point! Without those factors, Jeans psychic leeching ability is greatly reduced. That said, are you insinuating that there are no telepaths on Earth as these two fight?

Yeah pretty much, wouldn't that be considered outside help (If there are other telepaths on the planet where the battle takes place), but tbh I thought Jean could absorb energy from the earth itself

This is impressive and all but Jean blocking extreme temperatures has nothing to do with this battle since Sue's powers have nothing to do with temperatures.”

Good point, but what about the force of Icemans attack that Aqualion mentioned? Are you insinuating Bobby’s powers solely temperature based? Or that Bobby’s temeperature affect theforce of his abilities? Or are you insinuating Bobby’s attack has less force than his temperature control?

I was insinuating that Jean being able to block extremes of temperatures isn't really relevant in this battle but I know Bobby's powers aren't purely temperature based and Jean blocking the force of the attack didn't seem like the main point of the showing

•”Sue's fields protects her even while unconscious, they can activate automatically and they even protect her while she's asleep so outspeeding Sue isn't really possible”

So, are you saying Sues shields are always on? Are you saying Sues shields are alive and activate subconsciously like Storms does? Or are you saying that a KO isn’t the end of the battle? If you meant the last one, then why mention how Sue doesn’t need to destroy Jeans body, just suffocate her, which would result in a KO?

What I meant here was that it was possible that Sue's force field can activate automatically when she's somehow attacked too fast for her to react and here I meant Sue could suffocate Jean or knock her out with brute force without destroying Jean's body (Since aqualion said Jean can basically reform her body if it gets destroyed)

Sue has already blocked Jean tp and tk”

When has Jeans tp been blocked? There two encounters that I’m thinking of, and in both cases, Jeans tp was lost. When did this happen?

My mistake, in the scan that I posted where Sue blocked Jean's tk Jean said she should've sensed Sue sneaking up on her, thus I thought Jean still had her tp

I hope that cleared everything up, I'll try to be more clear next time, Thanks for the feedback though

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#32 Posted by Invisible_Boy05 (7 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by geekryan (3752 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Just saying, no one should be questioning feats/arguments or asking for clarification until the debate is over. It might bias or sway potential voters to one side.

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#34 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12341 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#35 Posted by PyroFN (5626 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Interesting. I guess I could do that.

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#36 Posted by del_torro (3404 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: wait till they finish man.

Though, I should point out that the scan of Jean holding back billions of tons is Phoenix

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#37 Posted by Invisible_Boy05 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: When will you be able to get back to the CaV?