Sidious is traveling to Geonosis to meet Darth Plagueis in secret. Maul and Savage have hired Boba Fett to join them in an attempt to assassinate Palpatine and they meet in the Petranaki arena of Geonosis.
Round 1
TPM Maul
Round 2
TCW Maul
Rules
Victory by death
In character, morals on
Standard equipment
Vote for who you think debated better, not which team you think would win, and don't make random votes without reasons
@i_like_swords Since you made the first post last time, I'll be doing it this time. We'll discuss round 1 first and if we both agree on your team losing, we'll discuss round 2. I'll start with a relatively short post in Silver-style, and expand as the debate continues.
To start, I'll address combative proficiency. Of course, Maul is the more skilled of your team, with Savage lagging behind. As for where Sidious lies, it's difficult to say. We know that Palpatine is already a master of combat by this time, but his actual level of lightsaber proficiency is somewhat dubious. He has no realistic feats to draw upon at this time, but we can still get an impression of his level of combat skill through his limited feats and circumstances surrounding his training. Now, he had only been able to wield a lightsaber a few years before 54BBY, but then, his enormous reserves and potential would have allowed him to master lightsaber combat quickly. With respects to what we do know of his combat, his combat did reach into more esoteric weapons - along with Plagueis, he defeated a Kursid army with not his lightsaber, but with a force pike. This can be interpreted in a number of fashions, but outside of just expressing his mastery with a force pike and other weapons, I think it may be something of an indication that Sidious had already mastered lightsaber combat. We can reinforce this with the fact that he had already sealed away his lightsaber in his neuranium sculpture, which he didn't call upon until RotS. Furthermore, by this period, Sidious had more or less stopped receiving lightsaber training, and his focus was on politics and Force power in the coming years. He began spending more time training others, rather than receiving the training himself. Now, of course, I'm referencing Maul here, who Palpatine trained and later defeated. Now, Sidious defeating Maul took place after 52BBY, but again, Sidious never received any further lightsaber training, at least, any that was revealed to the reader. That feat might be useable for that very reason - but even if not, I would be of the idea that Sidious should be at least slightly more skilled than Maul by this time. Outside of this, Sidious was trained in lightsaber combat by Plagueis, and by any reasonable and logical inference, they should have sparred with one another multiple times, and Sith sparring is not the same as Jedi sparring - it would be ferocious and deadly - the entire principle of the Sith being of the thought that if one died during training, then they were not fit to be Sith Lords. So in general, I think, Sidious should be at least on par with Maul, in my opinion, but probably would have a noticeable edge over Maul. In terms of raw skill, this is not sufficient to overcome both Maul and Savage (and deflecting fire from Boba at once), but then, we can draw upon Sidious's raw strength and brutality, his immense speed, and his monstrous power. I'll reference strength and speed and durability in upcoming posts, but I do want to bring up power.
Regarding power, Sidious should have a noticeable edge over your team, especially with the consideration that this is TPM Maul. To release a number of telekinetic feats on Sidious's part, Palpatine has been able to hurl around his father, contort bulkhead and strangle his mother with the Force, all of which was accomplished before he received any training in the Force.
Cosinga took a step in Palpatine's direction, only to be hurled back against the bulkhead separating the communications room from the main cabin. A female voice from behind the closed hatch asked in distress, "What was that?"
Nursing an injured shoulder, Cosinga looked suddenly like a trapped animal, his eyes wide with surprise and fear. He made a move to strike the handplate and open the hatch, but Palpatine thwarted his effort without raising a finger. Twisting violently around, Cosinga fell over one of the acceleration chairs, bloodying his face as it struck the armrest. A pounding began against the hatch.
"Guards!" Cosinga shouted, but the word had barely left his lips when the bulkhead against which he was slouched buckled inward, heaving him face-first to the floor and driving the breath from him. Palpatine stood rooted in place, his hands trembling in front of him and his face stricken. Something stirred behind his incandescent eyes. He heard the pounding on the hatch and whirled.
...
Once more Sidious allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crimethe event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father's limp and blooded body. The smashed skulls of the bodyguards. His hands clenched around his mother's slender throat—but not really, only in his mind, strangling her with his thoughts. The lifeless forms of his siblings, slumped here and there...
Source: Darth Plagueis
Sidious's raw power after he had spent more than a decade immersed in the dark side, should be well and truly above your team's. He has a few feats such as blowing a door open and collapsing a ceiling effortlessly (it doesn't directly mention the effortlessness, but I'll elucidate on that shortly):
He sprinted up the stairs to the next floor, where he heard a cacophony of human voices muffled by the thick door to a nearby room. Blowing the door inward with a Force push, he took a wide stance in the shattered doorway and positioned the blade of the thrumming lightsaber vertically in front of him.
Source: Darth Plagueis
Now Sidious gave full vent to his ire. Crashing through the doors, he landed in the center of a table covered with plates of grains and grassy plans and surrounded by a herd of grazing Gran, whose boisterous laughs froze in their throats. From the head of the table, Pax Teem gawked at him as if he might be a creature escaped from his most horrifying nightmare. And yet he wouldn't be the first to taste Plagueis's blade but the last; once he had been forced to watch the rest of his party butchered, from hooves to eyestalks; the painted ceiling brought down by Sidious's Force pull; the flames of a gentle gas blaze in the room's fireplace incited to a blistering inferno that Sidious tugged behind him as he soared from the table to the floor and closed on his final victim.
Source: Darth Plagueis
Boba's fire won't prove much of a distraction because Sidious has evinced the ability to utilize telekinesis to lift a pair of men up whilst deflecting blaster fire from roughly a dozen guards simultaneously:
Through the weapon’s glow he saw a dozen or more Santhe guards in uniform seated around a table littered with food and drink containers gape at him in disbelief before reaching for weapons fastened to their hips or scurrying for others buried beneath the rubble of their celebratory meal.
Sidious waded into the room, returning volleys of blaster bolts from those first to fire, then attacked, raising his left hand to levitate two guards into midair before running his blade through each of them.
Source: Darth Plagueis
However, his best feat which places him well beyond your team, is his musing of effortlessly collapsing a restaurant:
How effortless it would be, he thought, as the dark began to rise in him, searing and hungry, yearning to assume control of his body and unleash itself, to break the necks of both of them, to tear their beating hearts from their chests, to hurl and plaster them against the walls, to bring the entire sour-smelling place down on their heads...
But he didn’t. He needed to meet his abductor. He needed to learn the names of all those responsible. He needed to prove to his Master that he was adroit and capable—a true Sith Lord.
Source: Darth Plagueis
To sum up, since I need to go, Sidious can probably win about a 6/10 through sheer brutality and abuse of his raw speed, strength, skill and power. I haven't had the time to quote everything yet and my start is only somewhat reminiscent of Silver's in the other debate, but I'll expand in my next post and elucidate on Sidious's advantages in other areas, including physical ones.
To start, I'll address combative proficiency. Of course, Maul is the more skilled of your team, with Savage lagging behind. As for where Sidious lies, it's difficult to say. We know that Palpatine is already a master of combat by this time, but his actual level of lightsaber proficiency is somewhat dubious. He has no realistic feats to draw upon at this time, but we can still get an impression of his level of combat skill through his limited feats and circumstances surrounding his training. Now, he had only been able to wield a lightsaber a few years before 54BBY, but then, his enormous reserves and potential would have allowed him to master lightsaber combat quickly. With respects to what we do know of his combat, his combat did reach into more esoteric weapons - along with Plagueis, he defeated a Kursid army with not his lightsaber, but with a force pike. This can be interpreted in a number of fashions, but outside of just expressing his mastery with a force pike and other weapons, I think it may be something of an indication that Sidious had already mastered lightsaber combat. We can reinforce this with the fact that he had already sealed away his lightsaber in his neuranium sculpture, which he didn't call upon until RotS. Furthermore, by this period, Sidious had more or less stopped receiving lightsaber training, and his focus was on politics and Force power in the coming years.
I can totally agree with all of this. Absolutely reasonable. Although I do think that all we can really give Sidious is a skill "level". We won't know the ins and outs of how he fights, if he can take advantage of certain fight elements, or how he responds to wildcards. But we can make justified assumptions for giving him a tier of skill, like you've done here.
He began spending more time training others, rather than receiving the training himself. Now, of course, I'm referencing Maul here, who Palpatine trained and later defeated. Now, Sidious defeating Maul took placeafter 52BBY, but again, Sidious never received any further lightsaber training, at least, any that was revealed to the reader. That feat might be useable for that very reason - but even if not, I would be of the idea that Sidious should be at least slightly more skilled than Maul by this time.
Are you referencing Sidious and Maul's fight during his final trial to become a Sith Lord (when he was I think somewhere between the ages of 16-20, closer to 20)? If you are referencing that fight, since I don't know any other, then you are sorely lacking important context when you say Sidious, plainly, defeated Maul.
Before their fight, Sidious had just put Maul through the most brutal Sith Lord trials imaginable, spanning over 42 days straight, which I have documented here:
After Maul's training at the Orsis Academy, he returned to Mustafar with Sidious. He spent the next fourteen days enduring the hardest tests Sidious had ever set out for him. He didn't just pass them - he "destroyed" them.
Sidious and Maul returned to Mustafar. For fourteen days, Sidious put Maul through a series of grueling physical tests. Maul defended himself against lightsaber wielding droids in the training room. Blindfolded, he threw daggers at robotic targets, which threw the daggers back at him. He was blindfolded again before he climbed into a starship flight simulator wired with disciplinary electrodes. He wore a sensory-deprivation suit when he ran through a maze that was lined with razor-edged walls, and also when he was deposited into a previously unexplored Mustafarian cave. In locked chambers, he was exposed to extreme temperatures and deprived of food. For each test, he drew strength from the dark side of the Force.
Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul
However.. despite Maul's success, these tests were just preliminaries to a much harder test.. the actual test for Maul to become a Sith Lord.
When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."
Maul willed his body to remain standing.
"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim," Sidious continued. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain. Desert, swamp and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each is programmed with different strategies. Some will work together. Some will work alone. They are all are programmed to kill."
Maul turned to face his master. Although Maul remained silent, the fire in his eyes betrayed his surprise. And his excitement.
Sidious noticed Maul's reaction. "That is correct. I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win.
Maul nodded. "I understand, my Master."
"You will have to survive for a month," Sidious added. "You will only have a survival pack."
Despite his exhaustion, Maul felt exhilarated. He was determined to prove he was the best apprentice in the history of the Sith.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Needless to say, the trial was extremely difficult.
The assassin droids were relentless. Programmed to fight to the death, they had blasters built into their chests and hands. No matter how hard Maul tried to conceal himself or his desperately improvised camps, the droids found him. They never slept, never allowed Maul to sleep for very long, never hesitated before they pounced. When Maul did manage to rest and recover, he fell asleep knowing he would be awakened by an attack.
The droids drove him into the frozen mountains and across the burning deserts. Maul's survival pack was torn from his back and lost in one battle. And after twenty days, Maul realized he was at risk of losing something else. His mind.
Because the attacks never stopped.
Maul was beyond paranoid. He had reason to believe that every sound, every shape, and every shadow on Hypori was a potential threat.
He grew thin and his strength began to ebb. He foraged for food when he could. Life was scarce on Hypori, but he found a few small animals, killed them, and ate them raw, because he dared not risk building a fire that would attract more droids.
It was when he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages.
The wound festered. The pain was blinding.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul fought Sidious right after this. He had not only sustained a massive amount of fatigue due to constant exercise for 42 days, he had been eating raw animals to sustain himself, was thinning and had lost strength. He also had an untreated blaster wound to the thigh which became infected. He was even stumbling around and hallucinating when he was fighting Sidious. Maul was hardly himself in this fight and this is not a benchmark for how Sidious would do against a fresh version of his former apprentice.
Also, I don't know quite how much I trust your assessment that Sidious was more skilled in lightsaber combat than Maul at this time. Sidious neglected to teach Maul certain aspects of the Dark Side, such as force lightning and some other esoteric powers him and Plageuis were improving on. However, he made an absolute point of it to mould Maul into the ultimate physical weapon, and has even himself described him as "precise" and "elegant".
Could he be "slightly" more skilled? Maybe. But I'm hesitant to give him that advantage because Maul's entire existence was centred around physical combat. Sidious trained Maul for the sole purpose of being able to challenge guys like Mace Windu, Fisto, and Qui Gon, who Maul had been studying for the day he would fight them. He never even sparred with Sidious, and he also learnt a lot of his fighting knowledge at the Orsis academy, so it's not like everything he learnt came from Sidious. He became his own fighter very early on and learnt techniques Sidious would not have known about through sparring him or even watching him train. (Not that he watched him train either, because he was always asking for status reports post-training session).
All in all, I think Sidious may have a higher skill "level" than Maul, but in-fight application of that skill could go to Maul for the reasons listed.
Outside of this, Sidious was trained in lightsaber combat by Plagueis, and by any reasonable and logical inference, they should have sparred with one another multiple times, and Sith sparring is not the same as Jedi sparring - it would be ferocious and deadly - the entire principle of the Sith being of the thought that if one died during training, then they were not fit to be Sith Lords. So in general, I think, Sidious should be at least on par with Maul, in my opinion, but probably would have a noticeable edge over Maul. In terms of raw skill, this is not sufficient to overcome both Maul and Savage (and deflecting fire from Boba at once), but then, we can draw upon Sidious's raw strength and brutality, his immense speed, and his monstrous power. I'll reference strength and speed and durability in upcoming posts, but I do want to bring up power.
This is reasonable. But I do think we need to consider that while Sith sparring is brutal, I don't personally believe it is life threatening. Sidious might say that he's willing to give up what he values most to have the perfect apprentice (referring to the times he's said he's okay with Maul dying if it means he won't have an unsuitable apprentice), but in actuality I don't think he'd give up such an asset. If he could kill Maul in sparring he would stop himself, tell Maul how pathetic he is, and then punish him, like he usually does when Maul doesn't do well. I seriously doubt he would put Maul's life in danger while training. Yes, Maul did fight droids programmed to kill him while training, but these are droids, not Jedi or Sith, and that very statement is touched upon in the novels.
Maul's training, and Sidious's training I assume, was not life threatening, because the Sith value eachother as assets too much to simply kill their apprentice in sparring.
Also, I'm actually wondering if Sidious did spar with Plagueis. Sidious never sparred with Maul during their training, as Maul was always fighting droids instead. Perhaps Sidious picked up such training methods from Plagueis? Is there any source explaining where Sidious picked up any of his lightsaber skill, or is it all just assumed skill? Because if Sidious was also fighting droids during training, then I would make the case that, that was the only lightsaber training type he received, seeing as he never sparred with Maul either.
I think we can call Sidious and Maul even in skill. Sidious did train him, and had largely done most of his lightsaber training by the time he was training Maul. But Maul became his own fighter and stepped out of Sidious' shadow in terms of skill by the time he was a Sith Lord.
Alright.
Regarding power, Sidious should have a noticeable edge over your team, especially with the consideration that this is TPM Maul. To release a number of telekinetic feats on Sidious's part, Palpatine has been able to hurl around his father, contort bulkhead and strangle his mother with the Force, all of which was accomplished before he received any training in the Force.
If you read the quote Sidious didn't actually contort the bulkhead, he threw someone into it. And actually, using raw force power without training isn't something Maul hasn't done himself. When Maul was very young.. about five years old, he picked up a staff using telekinesis during a fight with a droid. Because of this, Sidious took Maul to a special planet where he would begin receiving training.
When he got there, Sidious told Maul to stand on a section of ground bedded with stones. Sidious asks Maul "what do you see". Maul doesn't know what Sidious means and just says "rocks"
Sidious starts torturing/punishing Maul every time he gets the answer wrong, until Maul finally bursts out screaming "Weapons! I see weapons!" and launches a pile of the stones at Sidious. That's the gist of the feat, anyway. I can dig up the quote if you want. The point is using the Force without training isn't something Maul wasn't able to do, and Savage had little to no extensive training before he was sending out powerful force blasts, and only really had been force sensitive for a matter of months, weeks maybe, before he was sending out telekinetic blasts. His time as the transformed Savage Opress only lasted a matter of months and he accomplished a lot.
Sidious's raw power after he had spent more than a decade immersed in the dark side, should be well and truly above your team's. He has a few feats such as blowing a door open and collapsing a ceiling effortlessly (it doesn't directly mention the effortlessness, but I'll elucidate on that shortly):
However, his best feat which places him well beyond your team, is his musing of effortlessly collapsing a restaurant:
Blowing a door open isn't something Savage is incapable of. Maul basically didn't use telekinesis in TPM, but Savage has a lot of very impressive force power feats. This one trumps Sidious blasting a door, collapsing a ceiling, and rivals Sidious' musing of tearing down a restaurant.
That glass? It was made out of Mandalorian Iron. I know this because in the novel Shadow Conspiracy it's stated that Satine's identical prison cell is made from it. Mandalorian Iron is a nigh-indestructible metal that has resisted blows from a lightsaber, and can tank extreme impacts and explosions ranging even past missiles. And this wasn't the infamous force rage enhanced Savage. This was base level Savage.
To sum up, since I need to go, Sidious can probably win about a 6/10 through sheer brutality and abuse of his raw speed, strength, skill and power. I haven't had the time to quote everything yet and my start is only somewhat reminiscent of Silver's in the other debate, but I'll expand in my next post and elucidate on Sidious's advantages in other areas, including physical ones.
Respectfully, I think due to Savage's comparable raw power in the force, and the fact Sidious will be contending with three opponents at once (including one roughly as skilled as him in combat), he will not be able to stomp through force power. We will see how your argument grows when you talk about physical stats, however.
I think right now my team can compensate for Sidious' advantages. Sidious is a good duelist, but Maul is just as skilled overall. Sidious has a lot of raw force power, but Savage is comparable. Sidious has better physical stats, but he has not shown the ability to contend with a wildcard such as Boba Fett. And while all of his individual attributes being compensated for only make this an even fight, there is one advantage I do have that Sidious cannot negate. Numbers. Having to perceive and react to multiple opponents coming from varying directions, all using a myriad of different offensive methods, is something Sidious has not shown the ability to cope with, and even if he had, it is still an inherent advantage for my team nonetheless.
I think right now personally, based off my knowledge of Sidious at this time, my team can win a solid 7/10. What tips the scale in their favor is the fact they have compensated for all of Sidious' advantages individually, but Sidious has not compensated for the numbers and sheer overwhelming versatility my team has over him.
I can totally agree with all of this. Absolutely reasonable. Although I do think that all we can really give Sidious is a skill "level". We won't know the ins and outs of how he fights, if he can take advantage of certain fight elements, or how he responds to wildcards. But we can make justified assumptions for giving him a tier of skill, like you've done here.
Alright.
Are you referencing Sidious and Maul's fight during his final trial to become a Sith Lord (when he was I think somewhere between the ages of 16-20, closer to 20)? If you are referencing that fight, since I don't know any other, then you are sorely lacking important context when you say Sidious, plainly, defeated Maul.
Before their fight, Sidious had just put Maul through the most brutal Sith Lord trials imaginable, spanning over 42 days straight, which I have documented here:
After Maul's training at the Orsis Academy, he returned to Mustafar with Sidious. He spent the next fourteen days enduring the hardest tests Sidious had ever set out for him. He didn't just pass them - he "destroyed" them.
Sidious and Maul returned to Mustafar. For fourteen days, Sidious put Maul through a series of grueling physical tests. Maul defended himself against lightsaber wielding droids in the training room. Blindfolded, he threw daggers at robotic targets, which threw the daggers back at him. He was blindfolded again before he climbed into a starship flight simulator wired with disciplinary electrodes. He wore a sensory-deprivation suit when he ran through a maze that was lined with razor-edged walls, and also when he was deposited into a previously unexplored Mustafarian cave. In locked chambers, he was exposed to extreme temperatures and deprived of food. For each test, he drew strength from the dark side of the Force.
Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul
However.. despite Maul's success, these tests were just preliminaries to a much harder test.. the actual test for Maul to become a Sith Lord.
When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."
Maul willed his body to remain standing.
"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim," Sidious continued. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain. Desert, swamp and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each is programmed with different strategies. Some will work together. Some will work alone. They are all are programmed to kill."
Maul turned to face his master. Although Maul remained silent, the fire in his eyes betrayed his surprise. And his excitement.
Sidious noticed Maul's reaction. "That is correct. I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win.
Maul nodded. "I understand, my Master."
"You will have to survive for a month," Sidious added. "You will only have a survival pack."
Despite his exhaustion, Maul felt exhilarated. He was determined to prove he was the best apprentice in the history of the Sith.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Needless to say, the trial was extremely difficult.
The assassin droids were relentless. Programmed to fight to the death, they had blasters built into their chests and hands. No matter how hard Maul tried to conceal himself or his desperately improvised camps, the droids found him. They never slept, never allowed Maul to sleep for very long, never hesitated before they pounced. When Maul did manage to rest and recover, he fell asleep knowing he would be awakened by an attack.
The droids drove him into the frozen mountains and across the burning deserts. Maul's survival pack was torn from his back and lost in one battle. And after twenty days, Maul realized he was at risk of losing something else. His mind.
Because the attacks never stopped.
Maul was beyond paranoid. He had reason to believe that every sound, every shape, and every shadow on Hypori was a potential threat.
He grew thin and his strength began to ebb. He foraged for food when he could. Life was scarce on Hypori, but he found a few small animals, killed them, and ate them raw, because he dared not risk building a fire that would attract more droids.
It was when he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages.
The wound festered. The pain was blinding.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul fought Sidious right after this. He had not only sustained a massive amount of fatigue due to constant exercise for 42 days, he had been eating raw animals to sustain himself, was thinning and had lost strength. He also had an untreated blaster wound to the thigh which became infected. He was even stumbling around and hallucinating when he was fighting Sidious. Maul was hardly himself in this fight and this is not a benchmark for how Sidious would do against a fresh version of his former apprentice.
You speak as if the circumstances were only against Maul.
His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mouth of the cave.
It was Sidious.
Maul could not believe his eyes. He felt not only relieved to see his Master, but genuinely glad. His Master would help him.
Sidious moved into the cave. He came to a stop near Maul. Smiling as he looked down at his apprentice, he said, "Now it is time for your final battle."
Maul wondered if he had heard correctly. He knew his Master must have been able to see plainly that he was not fit to stand. And yet he also knew his Master never tolerated weakness of any kind. Maul scrabbled at the cave's walls and pulled himself up. His balance was off. Searing pain shot through his leg as he lurched forward. Sidious handed Maul a lightsaber. Maul fumbled with the weapon and activated it. The cave's walls shimmered with light.
Maul did not realize how parched his throat was until he rasped, "Where is the assassin droid, Master?"
Stepping back from Maul, Sidious drew his own lightsaber and ignited its red blade. "I will be your opponent."
Maul stared at his Master with disbelief. And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.
Sidious sneered. "You cannot be as pathetic as you look." He raised his lightsaber and attacked.
Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.
Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."
Maul's anger turned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. He fell against the opposite wall and gasped for breath.
Sidious howled with laughter. "I expected your failure. I saw your weaknesses long ago. Your doubts in your own abilities. Your lack of faith in my teaching. Your inability to embrace the dark side. And that is why, over these long years, I have secretly trained another apprentice."
Maul stared hard at Sidious.
"Oh, poor Maul. All he ever wanted was a friend. Does it please you to know I have another apprentice? Does it make you fell less alone?"
Still trying to catch his breath, Maul said, "More than one apprentice...is against the rules of the Sith."
"You are right," Sidious said with a grin. "A spark of intelligence, at last." He gestured to the mouth of the cave. "My second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He only sustained a flesh wound. He is healthy. He is strong. Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me."
Maul realized his opponent had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.
No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.
Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.
Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"
"Yes," Maul grunted.
"You hate me?"
"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.
Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand. As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivete and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbing Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.
Sidious brought his lightsaber down on Maul. Maul waited for the pain and the shock of death. He was surprised when the lightsaber's blade bounced off his shoulder.
Sidious cackled merrily. He stood and looked at Maul. Then he tossed the lightsaber aside. Maul realized his Master had been using a harmless training lightsaber.
Maul leaned back against the cave wall. The rock bit into his back but he concentrated on the pain while his Master continued to laugh without mercy. When Sidious was done, he faced Maul and said, "Do you feel the hate?"
Maul nodded.
"Good. It is the source of your strength. You will hate me. No matter. Today you have delivered yourself into my hands. I have the power of life or death over you, Maul. Someday you will hold that power over another. It is the honor of the Sith. You will devote yourself to the idea of domination."
"But...what about the other apprentice?"
"There is no other apprentice."
Maul was astonished. He didn't know what to say.
"You have passed the test."
Maul could still taste his Master's blood on his lips, but his rage was rapidly ebbing. He shifted his feet and realized he was standing on his lost lightsaber. He picked it up and shoved it into his belt.
"From this day forward," Sidious said, "you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen a path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."
"Yes, Master."
Sidious smiled proudly. "Your rage. You enjoyed it? You enjoyed wanting to kill me?"
"I took pleasure in it."
Sidious laughed again, but it was not a mocking laughter. "You will do well, Lord Maul."
Maul realized he no longer felt any anger toward Sidious. He felt only...loyalty.
Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul
Having underlined the important elements regarding the fight, you should have known that Maul received a burst of rage unlike any other he had experienced before that amplified his abilities, which more or less eradicated the weakness and feebleness he had. Moreover, Sidious was just using a training saber and hardly ever attacked Maul. He won without even trying. You'll find the same things in the Episode 1 Journal. So yes, I do believe Sidious has a skill advantage.
Also, I don't know quite how much I trust your assessment that Sidious was more skilled in lightsaber combat than Maul at this time. Sidious neglected to teach Maul certain aspects of the Dark Side, such as force lightning and some other esoteric powers him and Plageuis were improving on. However, he made an absolute point of it to mould Maul into the ultimate physical weapon, and has even himself described him as "precise" and "elegant".
Could he be "slightly" more skilled? Maybe. But I'm hesitant to give him that advantage because Maul's entire existence was centred around physical combat. Sidious trained Maul for the sole purpose of being able to challenge guys like Mace Windu, Fisto, and Qui Gon, who Maul had been studying for the day he would fight them. He never even sparred with Sidious, and he also learnt a lot of his fighting knowledge at the Orsis academy, so it's not like everything he learnt came from Sidious. He became his own fighter very early on and learnt techniques Sidious would not have known about through sparring him or even watching him train. (Not that he watched him train either, because he was always asking for status reports post-training session).
All in all, I think Sidious may have a higher skill "level" than Maul, but in-fight application of that skill could go to Maul for the reasons listed.
I don't agree with this. Maul's training and circumstances are irrelevant, in part due to the fact that Sidious had greater potential and wielded greater reserves, and his training was hardly a pushover as well. Sidious's feats before he had any training in the Force entailed seemingly running imperceptibly fast, smashing skulls, tearing limbs off, telekinetically contorting bulkheads and telepathically repulsing scanning attempts from Plagueis. His rage buffeted Plagueis, caused 11-4D to step back, and caused blossoms to recoil. As feats in a wide range of areas, they are comparable to Maul by TPM already. After more than a decade of immersion in the dark side, receiving tutoring from one of the most powerful, wisest and most knowledgeable Sith Lords, I would think his traits all exceed Maul's. Skill should also exceed Maul's, just not by as much as in other areas. Sidious was also the one who trained Maul in a number of martial arts.
In totality, I doubt Sidious would have a respectable edge over Maul, but he should be noticeably superior.
This is reasonable. But I do think we need to consider that while Sith sparring is brutal, I don't personally believe it is life threatening. Sidious might say that he's willing to give up what he values most to have the perfect apprentice (referring to the times he's said he's okay with Maul dying if it means he won't have an unsuitable apprentice), but in actuality I don't think he'd give up such an asset. If he could kill Maul in sparring he would stop himself, tell Maul how pathetic he is, and then punish him, like he usually does when Maul doesn't do well. I seriously doubt he would put Maul's life in danger while training. Yes, Maul did fight droids programmed to kill him while training, but these are droids, not Jedi or Sith, and that very statement is touched upon in the novels.
Maul's training, and Sidious's training I assume, was not life threatening, because the Sith value eachother as assets too much to simply kill their apprentice in sparring.
Also, I'm actually wondering if Sidious did spar with Plagueis. Sidious never sparred with Maul during their training, as Maul was always fighting droids instead. Perhaps Sidious picked up such training methods from Plagueis? Is there any source explaining where Sidious picked up any of his lightsaber skill, or is it all just assumed skill? Because if Sidious was also fighting droids during training, then I would make the case that, that was the only lightsaber training type he received, seeing as he never sparred with Maul either.
I think we can call Sidious and Maul even in skill. Sidious did train him, and had largely done most of his lightsaber training by the time he was training Maul. But Maul became his own fighter and stepped out of Sidious' shadow in terms of skill by the time he was a Sith Lord.
Alright.
Sidious's training was certainly life threatening. In his first weeks of training alone, he was forced to undergo brutal exercises, such as crawling across a tundra, for weeks without food, water and rest, and whilst constantly suffering rashes and burns from Plagueis repeatedly slashing at him with his lightsaber:
Scarcely listening, Sidious moved with utmost care, his hands and knees seeking firm purchase on the stones. For weeks Darth Plagueis had deprived him of sleep, food, and water. Now if only he could reach the Muun, his thirst would be slaked, his hunger sated, his contusions healed.
The Muun’s shadow fell over him. Arms folded across his chest, Plagueis loomed.
“If you’re to succeed in inhabiting both realms, Sidious—the profane world and that of the Force—you need to learn how to use guile to your advantage, and to recognize when others are employing it.” Without extending a hand, Plagueis tugged him to his feet. “If you can survive a few more days without sustenance or rest, I may be inclined to teach you.”
Clawing his way across the tundra, his body rashed with lightsaber burns, Sidious looked up at Plagueis, imploringly.
“How much longer, Master?”
Plagueis deactivated his weapon’s crimson blade and scowled. “Perhaps a moment, perhaps an eternity. Stop thinking of the future, and anchor yourself in the present. A Sith apprentice is the antithesis of a Jedi youngling nurtured in the Temple, battling a floating remote with a training lightsaber. A Sith acquaints himself with pain from the start, and inflicts it, as well. A Sith goes for the throat, just as you did on your family’s starship.”
Sidious continued to gaze at him. “I meant, how much longer will it take me to learn?”
The Muun sized him up with a look. “Hard to tell. Humans are their own worst enemies. Your body isn’t meant to withstand real punishment. It is easily injured and slow to heal. Your olfactory and tactile senses are relatively acute, but your auditory and visual senses are extremely limited.”
“Have I no strengths, Master?”
Plagueis dropped to one knee in front of him. “You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future.”
Sidious swallowed and found his voice. “How long?”
Plagueis stood, reigniting the lightsaber as he did so. “Not a standard day sooner than a decade.”
Source: Darth Plagueis
Eleven years later, he was forced to undergo exercises along with Plagueis such as deflecting blaster fire miniature armies of droids or fighting armies of Kursid warriors, which would be life threatening but of course, Sidious' incredible reserves and speed and the likes would have afforded him the ability to pass these exercises. I'll discuss these in more detail further on.
Regarding Sidious and Maul's training, this is not comparable to Sidious and Plagueis' training at all. Plagueis directly instructed Sidious in lightsaber combat, and they shared a realistic Banite Sith apprentice-master relationship. Maul was intended as an assassin; a tool, not a successor for Palpatine. His training was completely different and he was never intended to succeed Sidious. You cannot use Maul's training to make any implicit or explicit conclusions about Sidious' training. Sidious' training, which came directly from Plagueis, can certainly be implied to have included sparring. He did not train in Maul's fashion at all.
If you read the quote Sidious didn't actually contort the bulkhead, he threw someone into it. And actually, using raw force power without training isn't something Maul hasn't done himself. When Maul was very young.. about five years old, he picked up a staff using telekinesis during a fight with a droid. Because of this, Sidious took Maul to a special planet where he would begin receiving training.
When he got there, Sidious told Maul to stand on a section of ground bedded with stones. Sidious asks Maul "what do you see". Maul doesn't know what Sidious means and just says "rocks"
Sidious starts torturing/punishing Maul every time he gets the answer wrong, until Maul finally bursts out screaming "Weapons! I see weapons!" and launches a pile of the stones at Sidious. That's the gist of the feat, anyway. I can dig up the quote if you want. The point is using the Force without training isn't something Maul wasn't able to do, and Savage had little to no extensive training before he was sending out powerful force blasts, and only really had been force sensitive for a matter of months, weeks maybe, before he was sending out telekinetic blasts. His time as the transformed Savage Opress only lasted a matter of months and he accomplished a lot.
I know about your last paragraph. I read it before.
Regarding Sidious not contorting a bulkhead, he did:
"Guards!" Cosinga shouted, but the word had barely left his lips when the bulkhead against which he was slouched buckled inward, heaving him face-first to the floor and driving the breath from him. Palpatine stood rooted in place, his hands trembling in front of him and his face stricken. Something stirred behind his incandescent eyes. He heard the pounding on the hatch and whirled.
Source: Darth Plagueis
The quote outright states that the bulkhead that Cosinga was leaning on buckled which caused Cosinga to fall to the floor. The bulkhead buckled inward, which is why Cosinga fell.
Blowing a door open isn't something Savage is incapable of. Maul basically didn't use telekinesis in TPM, but Savage has a lot of very impressive force power feats. This one trumps Sidious blasting a door, collapsing a ceiling, and rivals Sidious' musing of tearing down a restaurant.
That glass? It was made out of Mandalorian Iron. I know this because in the novel Shadow Conspiracy it's stated that Satine's identical prison cell is made from it. Mandalorian Iron is a nigh-indestructible metal that has resisted blows from a lightsaber, and can tank extreme impacts and explosions ranging even past missiles. And this wasn't the infamous force rage enhanced Savage. This was base level Savage.
There's a level of misconception here. I never said this is something Savage couldn't replicate, I will simply listing feats for Sidious.
Regarding Savage shattering Beskar, that is certainly not on par with Sidious effortlessly collapsing the Shimmersilk restaurant. Savage had to gather power and seemed to be requiring considerable, if not maximum, effort. Sidious being able to accomplish it so effortlessly (and, logically, instantly considering how it would have been effortless) is particularly speaking - it certainly exceeds Savage's feat.
As a feat, that probably only rivals or slightly exceeds (and I doubt it would be the latter) Sidious effortlessly pulling down a mansion ceiling. I have never seen Savage accomplish feats like this effortlessly. "Base" Savage required moderate effort to knock a 20m ship off a cliff, let alone effortlessly collapsing mansion ceilings. Moreover, an enraged Savage could only lift two obelisks, while Dooku was lifting a dozen with moderate effort. Dooku is not as powerful as Sidious by this point, and I am not accepting the "Savage is not good at lifting objects" argument. I don't recall anything like that ever happening in the history of SW EU, and this was never stated for Savage. Now, Savage may have increased in power, but even if he did, it would not be by such a huge margin. Savage is most certainly not on Palpatine's level in terms of telekinetic potency.
The feat you posted indicates that Savage has voluminous destructive potential, but it is not on par with Sidious. I'm not sure I would actually doubt that Savage could replicate those feats, but he is definitely not replicating them with the effortlessness Sidious did, considering I have never seen Savage accomplish anything even close to this without effort.
Respectfully, I think due to Savage's comparable raw power in the force, and the fact Sidious will be contending with three opponents at once (including one roughly as skilled as him in combat), he will not be able to stomp through force power. We will see how your argument grows when you talk about physical stats, however.
I think right now my team can compensate for Sidious' advantages. Sidious is a good duelist, but Maul is just as skilled overall. Sidious has a lot of raw force power, but Savage is comparable. Sidious has better physical stats, but he has not shown the ability to contend with a wildcard such as Boba Fett.
Neither of us did address Boba Fett. I didn't overlook him, I was just short on time. Regarding Boba, his arsenal would probably be enough for him to have an impact on the fight. Sidious almost certainly has the ability to just speedblitz him, but I'm not sure that would happen for the majority (although it might happen since Boba interferes with their dueling). I'll address the speed issue later. Regarding Boba's weaponry, they would be sufficient to force Sidious to avoid them, although I doubt this would be difficult. Also, pertaining to the most destructive elements of Fett's arsenal - they could actually be detrimental to your team. Not only does Boba have to try and avoid your team, preventing him from fully unleashing a completely environmentally destructive assault, but if he happens to generate fire, that would be advantageous for Sidious. During his assassination of Pax Teem and everybody else in his home, he evinced pyrokinetic abilities:
From the head of the table, Pax Teem gawked at him as if he might be a creature escaped from his most horrifying nightmare. And yet he wouldn't be the first to taste Plagueis's blade but the last; once he had been forced to watch the rest of his party butchered, from hooves to eyestalks; the painted ceiling brought down by Sidious's Force pull; the flames of a gentle gas blaze in the room's fireplace incited to a blistering inferno that Sidious tugged behind him as he soared from the table to the floor and closed on his final victim.
In desperate flight from the Sith and the spreading flames, Pax Teem had backed himself to a tall window framed by floor-to-ceiling curtains. Entreaties of whatever sort tried to thrust themselves through his stricken voice box and past his square teeth, but none succeeded.
Deactivating the lightsaber, Sidious beckoned the flames with his fingers, encouraging them to leap from the table to the curtains. A bleating scream finally emerged from Teem's narrow muzzle of a mouth as the blazing fabric collapsed around him, and Sidious watched him roast to death.
Source: Darth Plagueis
Your team would simply have to endure the fire, but Sidious can outright control it and use it as a weapon. I doubt this would happen very often, if at all, but it is certainly worth mentioning. If this does happen, your team could find themselves in trouble (not necessarily, but it should have some effect). Boba can fly away with his jetpack (although Sidious could potentially just crush it), and while Maul and Savage could leap over the flames, or potentially (key word) briefly part the flames with the Force, they aren't exactly durable enough to endure it roasting their skins.
To be honest, Boba is just there to add pressure on Sidious and support your team. If Sidious manages to scatter the team early with TK, Sidious would logically go for Boba since he interferes with a lightsaber duel, and because he is the easiest person on your team to drop first (I doubt Sidious would fall without dropping anybody). He suffers the threat of being potentially speedblitzed, and Sidious may be able to exercise sufficient precision to crush his internal organs or snap his neck or something of that sort, which probably won't happen for a majority, but I do want to stress the idea that Boba is extremely vulnerable. If Fett is ever caught alone, he would be dropped instantly.
And while all of his individual attributes being compensated for only make this an even fight, there is one advantage I do have that Sidious cannot negate. Numbers. Having to perceive and react to multiple opponents coming from varying directions, all using a myriad of different offensive methods, is something Sidious has not shown the ability to cope with, and even if he had, it is still an inherent advantage for my team nonetheless.
I think right now personally, based off my knowledge of Sidious at this time, my team can win a solid 7/10. What tips the scale in their favor is the fact they have compensated for all of Sidious' advantages individually, but Sidious has not compensated for the numbers and sheer overwhelming versatility my team has over him.
Your team's sheer numbers can pull them a win, although Sidious's raw Force potency may be sufficient to scatter them early with a telekinetic wave, and if this does happen, I think Sidious would be able to pick off individual members of your team and beat them. Sidious could win via sheer brutality and abuse of all of his available assets, including power expenditure, and excessive amount of which can prove dangerous to your team. Savage might have some level of power worth noting, but the other two, especially if alone, could get completely dominated by Sidious's raw telekinetic potency. I doubt Palpatine would unleash perpetual telekinetic assaults, but to be honest, your team, especially in round 1, is prone to being overwhelmed. Savage may not be overwhelmed, but I don't recall him evincing any protective powers that would enable Boba or Maul to not be overwhelmed by the sheer power Sidious possesses. Regarding numbers and strategies such as surrounding Sidious, I think Sidious' colossal running and combat speeds could compensate for this.
I'd like to address a pair of feats in particular:
On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."
Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.
"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.
Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.
When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.
"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."
The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber. The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrending their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.
Source: Darth Plagueis
What we see here is Sidious and Plagueis standing back to back, each taking turns to deflect blaster fire from entire rings of droids that total up to two hundred. For starters, they are deflecting omnidirectional blaster fire, but Plagueis being taller than Sidious also has implications. Sidious would have to run around Plagueis in order to deflect blaster fire from the droids, because otherwise Plagueis would be shot. Now, of course, you might suggest that Plagueis simply deflected that portion of blaster fire, but the text more or less explicitly identifies the duo as (in turns) expressing their skill against the entire ring. Deflecting blaster fire for the other person would never do. So they would have to run around each other, which is supported by the quote "Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley". "Orbiting Sidious" should explicitly support the idea of Plagueis running around Sidious, which would be how the blade could orbit Palpatine in the first place. Sidious, similarly, would have run around Plagueis, deflecting the blaster fire. If you already agree with me that they would have been running around each other, then the last part should be simple - their running speed should have to be superior to the speed of the blaster fire. They would have had to outrun the blaster bolts if they were to deflect blaster fire from the entire ring, which is certainly a decent feat. I'm not sure if I would contend that Maul couldn't replicate this feat, to my memory, he did also outpace blaster bolts, although I don't recall him deflecting blaster fire from this many of them at any point whilst doing so.
The other feat is this one:
"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."
To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.
Source: Darth Plagueis
This carries a number of connotations. First, Sidious and Plagueis were utilizing Force pikes to defeat the Kursid army, which would indicate that Sidious would not be particularly surprised or anything of that sort by Savage's doublesaber. This can also serve as a skill feat, although I don't find it terribly overwhelming. However, it is a very good speed feat. Sidious and Plagueis were able to fight an entire army of the most skilled Kursid warriors, and avoid being hit by any of their axes, spears or arrows. As Silver once noted before, the description "flying among them like wraiths" would indicate they also leapt into the midst of the armies, especially considering the word "among". As a speed feat, this exceeds anything Maul has ever shown. I don't recall anybody on Maul's class defeating an entire army without sustaining a single hit, especially since Sidious was using a Force pike and not a lightsaber, which negates the possibility of deflecting projectiles like arrows. Moreover, Sidious and Plagueis also completely disused their offensive Force powers, so it was more or less them exercising solely speed and agility. They also fought for hours on end, an extremely impressive stamina feat, so this should eliminate any argument about Sidious tiring. As a feat, this outclasses anything your team has ever shown. This also happened two years before 52BBY, so while it might not have much of a difference, Palpatine may have had some slight increase in speed.
To be honest, I think Sidious' speed collectively outweighs your team's. Silver did note that Sidious was collectively faster than Grievous, Ventress and Durge, and that team is faster than yours. Now, you don't necessarily have to agree with Silver, and you can raise an objection if you want, but I would agree. We saw in Witches of the Mist that Dooku was easily capable of dodging many of Savage's strikes, and Sidious is significantly faster, vastly more agile, and infinitely superior in terms of running speed. I severely doubt Savage would ever get a hit, and the same goes for Boba. Maul is probably the only person on your team that I find to be capable of landing physical blows.
Strength and durability don't seem to have a huge bearing our fight right now, so I'll leave it as it is, but if we bring this up, then I will certainly begin providing evidence for Palpatine in those regards. At the moment, I think your team's relative lack of defense against Sidious' sheer power (except for Savage) could prove helpful for Palpatine. I stand by Sidious winning a difficult or potentially brutal 6-7/10 through sheer speed and power expenditure, with the aid of his other physical attributes and combat skill. I'm not sure he would be that strained, though. There's a chance Boba will be a non-factor from the outset, and even excluding that, his value in the actual fight is only worth so much, and Sidious can use him against his team as well. After some revision, I actually think an 8/10 might work. You'll have to convince me that Boba is worth more or else he probably isn't worth much at all.
He needs some non-Force sensitive character to debate with. Savage and Maul alone are not going to cut it, and he agreed on Boba since Fett was his main area of expertise.
You speak as if the circumstances were only against Maul.
They were.
And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.
This isn't important because it was a "trickle" of strength and he would still be hampered.
Maul's anger turned to rage.
Maul has been stated as being in a "rage" in other fights and even general moments of anger. This was my findings from Lockdown alone:
And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.
This statement alone only suggests he's angrier than ever, and does not translate to how he performed.
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
This talks about how Maul feels and what he wants and is not objective of his abilities. He's angrier than ever, and is optimistically contemplating killing his master because he has nothing to lose at this point. Maul has always been determined. But it does not take away from the fact he was in an absolutely horrendous physical state.
Having underlined the important elements regarding the fight, you should have known that Maul received a burst of rage unlike any other he had experienced before that amplified his abilities, which more or less eradicated the weakness and feebleness he had. Moreover, Sidious was just using a training saber and hardly ever attacked Maul. He won without even trying. You'll find the same things in the Episode 1 Journal. So yes, I do believe Sidious has a skill advantage.
Granted, he did receive a temporary boost that at the very least, allowed him to stop staggering around in a limp. But he would not have been at his best and there's no way you can show that he was. Maul has been hampered by relatively minor injuries before, never mind an infected, untreated blaster wound and all the other fatigue and dietary implications he had.
It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
The pain in his leg was exquisite.
Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at this Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.
He will fall heavily, like a monument.
But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.
Maul leaped over the Jedi, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul, despite being better than Qui-Gon overall, was not able to gain the advantage he had over him in their second fight, because he was injured, even after fueling himself with the dark side. He was only really even with Qui-Gon, despite Qui-Gon's inferior stamina which forced him to retreat.
And that was with a minor injury. Nothing compared to Maul being put through 14 straight days of sensory deprivation suits, being deprived of food, fighting lightsaber wielding droids, contending with disciplinary electrodes, being exposed to extreme tempratures and going through razor edged mazes blindfolded. And then going through a month of eating nothing but raw animals on a sparsely populated Hypori, having to live in a desert, swamp and mountains, thinning, losing strength, being completely deprived of sleep and having to constantly wake up to fight groups of Assassin Droids, and even sustaining a blaster injury to his bare thigh, having it go untreated and then becoming infected.
I seriously can not trust your interpretation of the events to the point that Maul was better than ever when he fought Sidious. No level of anger would return Maul his normal levels, never mind better than them. Maul thought and felt he was doing well but he was still staggering into walls even when Sidious had induced a rage (which hasn't helped Maul cope with injuries sufficiently anyway).
Even if Maul had improved significantly when he was angry, the level of which he improved from his horrendous physical state is entirely ambiguous and reasonable thinking leads me to think it wasn't nearly enough to overcome the torment his body had been put through.
So no, Sidious did not beat a fresh Darth Maul.
I don't agree with this. Maul's training and circumstances are irrelevant, in part due to the fact that Sidious had greater potential and wielded greater reserves, and his training was hardly a pushover as well. Sidious's feats before he had any training in the Force entailed seemingly running imperceptibly fast, smashing skulls, tearing limbs off, telekinetically contorting bulkheads and telepathically repulsing scanning attempts from Plagueis. His rage buffeted Plagueis, caused 11-4D to step back, and caused blossoms to recoil. As feats in a wide range of areas, they are comparable to Maul by TPM already.
No, they aren't irrelevant and you're neglecting to counter the point that Sidious trained Maul in physical combat as well as he could. You are only explaining that Maul was no threat to Sidious in physical and Force power areas. You have not accounted for the fact he trained Maul to be as skilled as possible because he could afford to. Sidious training Maul to be as skilled as him in lightsaber combat is backed up by the fact Sidious gave him the best training he could at the Orsis academy, and has stated himself Maul is elegant and precise. Not to mention Maul has gone down as one of the "most skilled" and "most highly trained" Sith duelists in galactic history.
One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.
As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.
There were no holds barred for Sidious when skill was concerned. In that department, he taught Maul all he knew, and more. And he could afford to give Maul this level of skill, because he knew he had far greater Force reserves than him.
After more than a decade of immersion in the dark side, receiving tutoring from one of the most powerful, wisest and most knowledgeable Sith Lords, I would think his traits all exceed Maul's. Skill should also exceed Maul's, just not by as much as in other areas. Sidious was also the one who trained Maul in a number of martial arts.
In totality, I doubt Sidious would have a respectable edge over Maul, but he should be noticeably superior.
And did Sidious himself not match Plagueis in knowledge and wisdom? You've hammered home the point that Sidious' physical and force abilities exceed Maul's, but you can not then use that to apply it to skill level. Because Sidious taught Maul everything he could in terms of lightsaber skill (hence "one of the most highly trained") and Sidious wasn't the only one to teach him a number of martial arts. Maul had mastered a roughly equal amount of different martial arts at the Orsis academy, at the age of thirteen alone. He then went on to maximize what he could learn at the Orsis academy, and began learning from a Mandalorian, all while not being allowed to even utilize all of his force reserves. These are conditions of training Sidious has not been subjected to, because was trained without Force speed at Orsis.
All in all, Sidious taught Maul all he could regarding lightsaber combat, which includes whatever Plagueis would have taught Sidious, and he could afford to do so because he has more Force reserves than Maul. Not to mention Maul has received an extensive amount of master-level combatant training from a source Sidious himself has never been able to learn from.
Sidious, in pure skill, is not exceeding Maul. He's about even. There is no noticeable difference there.
Sidious's training was certainly life threatening. In his first weeks of training alone, he was forced to undergo brutal exercises, such as crawling across a tundra, for weeks without food, water and rest, and whilst constantly suffering rashes and burns from Plagueis repeatedly slashing at him with his lightsaber:
Maul has done better on numerous occasions. Does that mean Sidious was putting him in a position to let him be killed? Of course not. Sidious, and Plagueis, would not put their apprentices into a task that would threaten their life if they did not know they could overcome it. Plagueis and Sidious are both beings ho practiced advanced precognition, and they would know how to maximise their training without killing their apprentices. As for my statement about Maul doing better on numerous occasions:
When Maul was between the ages of 7-10, he was one day knocked out by his training droid, Deenine. When Maul awoke, he was in the middle of nowhere on the inhospitable lava planet - Mustafar. He had been left with no provisions, no weapons.. nothing. His first instinct was to follow a group of Mustafarians, kill them, and take their food and supplies in order to survive. Maul, using these tactics, endured the harshness of Mustafar for 17 days. He only went to sleep twice. And he wasn't even 10 years old at the time.
His survival instincts are completely supernatural even at such a young age. It's also worth mentioning that he had two broken ribs and a snapped left arm prior to and during this time period.
He pushed himself up. He was on a broad slab of rock on Mustafar's surface. The loud roaring sound came from a nearby rocky vent that was spewing lava. He didn't know how long he'd been outside or even how far he was from Sidous's facility. But he knew he had not arrived at this place on his own.
He looked around. He saw no sign of TD-D9 or Sidious, or of any other kind of shelter. Although they had not taken away the clothes and bandages he was wearing, they had not left him with any provisions. But he did have something to his advantage. He had his training.
Maul was not scared. He felt free. He could live or perish on this hostile world without anyone to tell him what to do. And then he realized he was not in any way eager to die. He became resolved to survive. He would do anything and everything necessary to stay alive.
He saw a dark shape move past the lava vent. Crouching low to the ground, ignoring the pain from his ribs and left arm, he watched with wonder as a tall masked Mustafarian rode by on a massive six-legged lava flea. Two more flea-mounted Mustafarians followed.
Maul had no idea where the Mustafarians were headed, whether they were going to a mining camp or back to their remote village. He would track them, find their food, and steal it. If it became necessary to kill them to ensure his own survival, he would gather rocks to strike them dead or strangle them with his own bandages and broken bones. And then he would find his way back to Sidous and prove that he was indeed a strong boy. He would prove that he feared nothing.
He would earn the respect of his Master.
The Three Mustafarians moved off. Maul followed them.
***
"Ah, you have returned," Sidious said to Maul, who stood before him in the tapestry-decorated chamber in the Mustafar facility. Sidious was holding a small container of food pellets, which he had been gently pushing into the hovering watery orb to feed the fish. Maul's head was covered with soot and dirt, and his torso was adorned with ill-fitting, bloodstained Mustafarian armor. Looking at the armor, Sidious smiled. "I see you kept busy during your little outing."
The spider-legged droid TD-D9 stood a short distance behind Maul. The droid's right front leg was missing, and one of it's left legs was mangled. "I found him outside, Master Sidious," TD-D9 said, "not far from the landing pad. He'd set a trap. I walked right into it." Raising one of its pincer arms, the droid held out the shattered remains of its front right leg. "Maul could have destroyed me."
Sidious set aside the fish food and looked at Maul skeptically. "Is this true? You could have destroyed the droid?"
"Yes, Master Sidious," Maul replied.
"Then why didn't you?"
Maul tilted his chin toward the droid, "Because I wanted to bring this thing back to you in pieces."
Sidious smiled again. "Maul, do you know how long you were running around on Mustafar's surface?"
Maul grimaced. "I'm not certain, Master Sidious. I fell asleep twice while I was outside."
"Well, I'll tell you, then. You survived outside for seventeen standard days. I doubt very much that many boys your age - and that includes young Mustafarians - could accomplish such a thing without a wealth of provisions and emergency equipment. I commend you."
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul, near the end of his time training at the Orsis Academy, took part in the "Gora", an infamous challenge in which a cadet is left in inhospitable conditions with nothing more a vibroblade. He is to survive for seven days, while killing a variety of large predators constantly. Not only did Maul survive - he had the time of his life, going as far as to kill these predators for sport.
For Maul, the current exercise was merely a warm-up for a bigger challenge on Orsis, an Academy rite of passage called the Gora. Named after the challenge's location, an immense volcanic crater filled with dense forsts, vast swamps, and bloodthirsty beasts. The Gora required a cadet to traverse the crater for seven days, surviving without food or equipment except for a single vibroblade.
***
The first day of the Gora was beyond intense.
The second day was even more brutal.
The third, fourth, fifth, and sixth days were increasingly bloody. And Maul was having the time of his life.
Countless wild predators kept him constantly occupied as well as sleepless. Except for his heightened senses and physical strength, he did not use the Force in any obvious way. With his vibroblade more often in his hand than in the sheath strapped to his upper leg, he moved like a jungle animal through the forests and grassy swamps that filled the enormous crater, killing some beasts in self-defence, some for food, and others for sheer sport.
Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul
Note* He didn't finish the 7th day because his attempt at the Gora was interrupted by a third party.
Would Sidious have put Maul through all of that if he knew he could die? Of course not. No point in risking killing an apprentice with a task they aren't ready for.
Which reinforces my point that if Sidious and Plagueis did in fact spar, it was not for life and death every time, and Sidious was not by merit of this as skilled as Plageuis at this time. Which is further reinforced by the fact Sidious drugged/made Plagueis drunk and fall asleep in order to kill him.
Sidious is not taking a skill advantage over Maul just because he learnt from Plagueis or sparred with him, because he transferred all of his lightsaber skill over to Maul, and his sparring with Plagueis was not to the death. And Plagueis had to be killed in his sleep by Sidious, going to show he was no match for his master.
Eleven years later, he was forced to undergo exercises along with Plagueis such as deflecting blaster fire miniature armies of droids or fighting armies of Kursid warriors, which would be life threatening but of course, Sidious' incredible reserves and speed and the likes would have afforded him the ability to pass these exercises. I'll discuss these in more detail further on.
Yes. Exactly. In proportion this is the equivalent of Maul defeating a fleet of Assassin Droids under terrible physical and environmental conditions with improvised weapons - no force pike or lightsaber. So I don't see why you think Sidious or Maul were 1. Had any difference in the danger level of their training or 2. Were actually at risk of dying, becoming a waste of years of training for their masters.
Regarding Sidious and Maul's training, this is not comparable to Sidious and Plagueis' training at all. Plagueis directly instructed Sidious in lightsaber combat, and they shared a realistic Banite Sith apprentice-master relationship. Maul was intended as an assassin; a tool, not a successor for Palpatine. His training was completely different and he was never intended to succeed Sidious. You cannot use Maul's training to make any implicit or explicit conclusions about Sidious' training. Sidious' training, which came directly from Plagueis, can certainly be implied to have included sparring. He did not train in Maul's fashion at all.
Sidious directly instructed Maul in lightsaber combat as well, in his private castle overlooking the Orsis academy. Am I now using this to imply life-threatening sparring between Maul and Sidious? No. Because I can't know if they sparred, or how they sparred, just like you can't know if Sidious and his master sparred. And the fact is Sidious was no match for Plagueis anyway so it's really irrelevant how their hypothetical sparring went anyway.
I know about your last paragraph. I read it before.
Regarding Sidious not contorting a bulkhead, he did:
"Guards!" Cosinga shouted, but the word had barely left his lips when the bulkhead against which he was slouched buckled inward, heaving him face-first to the floor and driving the breath from him. Palpatine stood rooted in place, his hands trembling in front of him and his face stricken. Something stirred behind his incandescent eyes. He heard the pounding on the hatch and whirled.
The quote outright states that the bulkhead that Cosinga was leaning on buckled which caused Cosinga to fall to the floor. The bulkhead buckled inward, which is why Cosinga fell.
I overlooked that, as I only read the underlined parts and assumed the first mention of the bulkhead was what you meant. My bad.
There's a level of misconception here. I never said this is something Savage couldn't replicate, I will simply listing feats for Sidious.
Regarding Savage shattering Beskar, that is certainly not on par with Sidious effortlessly collapsing the Shimmersilk restaurant. Savage had to gather power and seemed to be requiring considerable, if not maximum, effort. Sidious being able to accomplish it so effortlessly (and, logically, instantly considering how it would have been effortless) is particularly speaking - it certainly exceeds Savage's feat.
Granted Sidious could rip down the restaurant effortlessly, but the restaurant wasn't made from nigh-indestructible Mandalorian Iron, which Savage was able to crack before he released his actual blast. I think Sidious would also have to extend this level of effort to effort to crack the iron. And the amount of effort exerted in these feats doesn't take precedence over the feats performed themselves. We don't know the upper limits of Sidious' force abilities, only that he could effortlessly collapse this restaurant. And even then, how do we know the ins and outs of such a feat? Would Sidious flat out collapse the entire restaurant all at once? Would he rip it's foundations apart and then let it crumble? Would he deconstruct it in portions? How long would it take? These are questions Sidious' musing cannot answer, and thus to a level, make the feat ambiguous, despite how impressive it is. I'm sure Savage could replicate it just as effortlessly given that their shown feats are quite even, and we don't know how Sidious would go about carrying out his musing specifically.
As a feat, that probably only rivals or slightly exceeds (and I doubt it would be the latter) Sidious effortlessly pulling down a mansion ceiling. I have never seen Savage accomplish feats like this effortlessly. "Base" Savage required moderate effort to knock a 20m ship off a cliff, let alone effortlessly collapsing mansion ceilings. Moreover, an enraged Savage could only lift two obelisks, while Dooku was lifting a dozen with moderate effort. Dooku is not as powerful as Sidious by this point
The misconception with your comparison to Savage pushing a ship, and lifting orbalisks, is that when Sidious pulled down a mansion ceiling he would of had a considerable amount of help from gravity when performing this feat, once the foundations were falling apart in the ceiling.
Is Dooku not? Him lifting all those Orbalisks, as well as blasting, choking and restraining Savage (who has comparable feats to Sidious) effortlessly is definitely an indicator he had exceeded Palpatine at this point.
and I am not accepting the "Savage is not good at lifting objects" argument. I don't recall anything like that ever happening in the history of SW EU, and this was never stated for Savage. Now, Savage may have increased in power, but even if he did, it would not be by such a huge margin. Savage is most certainly not on Palpatine's level in terms of telekinetic potency.
Why not? Maul (during TCW) was blatantly better at lifting things than Savage, and Savage was blatantly better at blasting things than Maul (on a consistent basis). Which makes sense given Savage is just raw power, and Maul has shown refinement in his telekinetics to a level Savage hasn't. Maul pulling a ship off of a cliff is a better feat than Savage pushing one, due to the nature of the act being performed, in case you were going to bring that up, especially since the ship Maul pulled was bigger than the one Savage pushed. Want examples of the difference in their force application?
Savage blasting Jedi during a fight.
Maul, moments after, using a telekinetic pulling feat to escape.
Actually, Maul and Savage have quite comparable blasting feats, but due to the fact Savage is less refined, he is evidently not as good as Maul at lifting things. So I hold by my view that Savage is very proficient at releasing force blasts, but is not refined enough to lift and hold certain objects as easily as he could blast them.
Power =/= Refinement
So in terms of force power, in accordance with how they apply it, Savage and Sidious are quite even.
The feat you posted indicates that Savage has voluminous destructive potential, but it is not on par with Sidious. I'm not sure I would actually doubt that Savage could replicate those feats, but he is definitely not replicating them with the effortlessness Sidious did, considering I have never seen Savage accomplish anything even close to this without effort.
Granted, but you would now be going into the realm of speculation to determine what Sidious' upper limits are, and we don't even know how he would go about "effortlessly" tearing down the restaurant, because it is not explicitly stated. He could of done it in a way Savage could also effortlessly do, like rip down foundations or target specific areas of the restaurant to create a domino effect of destruction. The material of the restaurants build are hardly of similar constitution to a Mandalorian Iron prison cell.
Neither of us did address Boba Fett. I didn't overlook him, I was just short on time. Regarding Boba, his arsenal would probably be enough for him to have an impact on the fight. Sidious almost certainly has the ability to just speedblitz him, but I'm not sure that would happen for the majority (although it might happen since Boba interferes with their dueling). I'll address the speed issue later. Regarding Boba's weaponry, they would be sufficient to force Sidious to avoid them, although I doubt this would be difficult. Also, pertaining to the most destructive elements of Fett's arsenal - they could actually be detrimental to your team. Not only does Boba have to try and avoid your team, preventing him from fully unleashing a completely environmentally destructive assault, but if he happens to generate fire, that would be advantageous for Sidious. During his assassination of Pax Teem and everybody else in his home, he evinced pyrokinetic abilities:
You raise some good issues, which I will go about countering.
For one, Boba will not have to be near Sidious. Sidious will have his hands full with Maul and Savage alone, allowing Boba to do the smart thing and make distance with his jetpack. Boba would more than likely be utilizing his blaster from a safe distance any time he can catch Sidious at a moment of weakness, as is the mind set of a bounty hunter. Boba has a wrist laser and a vaporizing setting for his blaster - both low AoE but high damage weapons that would cause serious damage to Sidious on impact.
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Even a minor wound from one of these would set Sidious back.
Boba would have a less explosive arsenal to utilize, but a potent one nonetheless. Also I'd like to point out that if Sidious does, as you say, abuse his raw force power and separates the group, there could be an opportunity for Boba to let off a mini-concussion rocket if Savage and Maul are out of the way.
I don't think Boba would dare get close enough to use a flamethrower and I don't think there is much to catch fire from his explosions, should he end up using him. Sidious' fire manipulation is noteworthy but largely not an important factor. If Sidious was too close I think Boba would opt for a tactic more akin to using a sonic grenade to disorientate him.
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Your team would simply have to endure the fire, but Sidious can outright control it and use it as a weapon. I doubt this would happen very often, if at all, but it is certainly worth mentioning. If this does happen, your team could find themselves in trouble (not necessarily, but it should have some effect). Boba can fly away with his jetpack (although Sidious could potentially just crush it), and while Maul and Savage could leap over the flames, or potentially (key word) briefly part the flames with the Force, they aren't exactly durable enough to endure it roasting their skins.
I don't think it's a plausible scenario personally, but I'll humor it. They aren't going to be able to endure having their skin roasted? I beg to differ given exactly that has happened to Maul, and he's been able to ignore it and continue escaping an elevator.
He closed his eyes, summoning the power of the dark side, searching the hatch, probing it for structural weakness. It didn’t budge. Blinking back sweat, he rededicated himself to the task at hand. It was growing feverishly hot inside the lift, where Warden Blirr had no doubt intended to roast him alive, or until she broke down whatever rebellious aspect she saw in him, and turned him into … what? Her mascot, her house pet, or something even more servile?
The notion revolted him, and he jammed the metal strip in deeper between the locked hatch and its housing, wiggling it back and forth. Boiling with impatience, he released a concentrated energy field against the hatch, battering it, but it still wouldn’t budge.
Maul cursed, the anger rising up inside him from wherever it lived and toiled endlessly. Tightening his grip on the makeshift tool, he started working again on the hatch, forcing himself to take his time, fighting to ignore the suffocating heat, the baked air that filled his lungs, as if he were drawing breath directly from a blast furnace.
He fixed his gaze straight up. The hatch itself, an unremarkable twelve-by-eighteen-centimeter rectangle, had become his entire world. Twelve by eighteen, and in the end it represented the difference between completing his mission and perishing in shame and obscurity.
Slipher— Radique— the khipus—
He clenched his teeth , the heat very close to him now, pressing in from all sides, clinging to him like a second skin. By now the walls had become scalding steel plates, burning the palm of his hand and the fingers holding him in place. The inside of his mouth felt cool by comparison. A drop of sweat hit the floor and he realized that he could actually hear it sizzle. If the temperature kept going up like this, he guessed that he might have another minute or two before he blacked out from heat prostration, and then—
He kept working. There was an odd, meaty smell rising up around him, and when his blistered palm shifted slightly on the wall, he realized that it was his own flesh beginning to roast. Master. I will not fail.
He breathed in, breathed out. An odd, narcotic dizziness had started to take hold of him , and he reached down deep into whatever remained of his consciousness, forcing himself to focus. He needed to find Eogan Truax. If he could just— All at once, the hatch popped open.
Maul: Lockdown
He was easily in 200+++ degree heats here. His flesh was roasting. He was balancing on the same steel plating that was scalding his palms to a crisp. He could of passed out from heat exhaustion much earlier but he endured all of it and bust open the steel hatch. Absolutely insane pain tolerance.
And I'd argue Savage could as well, based on the fact he is by virtue of his physical build, more durable than Maul, but I'll leave it there. And again, it's not a plausible scenario anyway because it would require a great deal of out-of-character incompetence on Boba's part.
To be honest, Boba is just there to add pressure on Sidious and support your team. If Sidious manages to scatter the team early with TK, Sidious would logically go for Boba since he interferes with a lightsaber duel, and because he is the easiest person on your team to drop first (I doubt Sidious would fall without dropping anybody). He suffers the threat of being potentially speedblitzed, and Sidious may be able to exercise sufficient precision to crush his internal organs or snap his neck or something of that sort, which probably won't happen for a majority, but I do want to stress the idea that Boba is extremely vulnerable. If Fett is ever caught alone, he would be dropped instantly.
I entirely beg to differ. Fett can definitely keep a faster opponents hands full. Not saying Boba is going to bypass Sidious' defences, but all Sidious would logically be doing is defending from Boba's arsenal.
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He was able to prevent Vader from speedblizting him instantly using is myriad of weapons. Am I saying he beat Vader? No. But I am saying he held him back for enough time for, say, Maul and Savage to return to the fight and help him. Which is what he could do here in the scenario the brothers aren't fighting Sidious. And I'll counter why that scenario is also quite implausible later.
Your team's sheer numbers can pull them a win, although Sidious's raw Force potency may be sufficient to scatter them early with a telekinetic wave, and if this does happen, I think Sidious would be able to pick off individual members of your team and beat them. Sidious could win via sheer brutality and abuse of all of his available assets, including power expenditure, and excessive amount of which can prove dangerous to your team. Savage might have some level of power worth noting, but the other two, especially if alone, could get completely dominated by Sidious's raw telekinetic potency. I doubt Palpatine would unleash perpetual telekinetic assaults, but to be honest, your team, especially in round 1, is prone to being overwhelmed. Savage may not be overwhelmed, but I don't recall him evincing any protective powers that would enable Boba or Maul to not be overwhelmed by the sheer power Sidious possesses.
The problem with this argument is that you're under the impression Sidious won't have his hands full dealing with Maul - an incredibly versatile and unpredictable fighter - Savage - someone who rivals him in telekinetic potency -, and Boba - someone who is a complete wildcard for Sidious to cope with, who will have to deal with Fett trying to shoot him in the back constantly as he is dueling. That level of versatility is hard to overcome just by being powerful, and even if he did scatter the group, all he would do is provoke Boba into doing this, which would put the duel back on even footing:
You see what I'm getting at? Numbers and versatility will overwhelm Sidious. He can try to scatter them and pick them off individually but they will always have options readily available to set Sidious back in his efforts, like a Force blast from Savage or a rocket from Boba.
Regarding numbers and strategies such as surrounding Sidious, I think Sidious' colossal running and combat speeds could compensate for this.
I'd like to address a pair of feats in particular:
What we see here is Sidious and Plagueis standing back to back, each taking turns to deflect blaster fire from entire rings of droids that total up to two hundred. For starters, they are deflecting omnidirectional blaster fire, but Plagueis being taller than Sidious also has implications. Sidious would have to run around Plagueis in order to deflect blaster fire from the droids, because otherwise Plagueis would be shot. Now, of course, you might suggest that Plagueis simply deflected that portion of blaster fire, but the text more or less explicitly identifies the duo as (in turns) expressing their skill against the entire ring. Deflecting blaster fire for the other person would never do. So they would have to run around each other, which is supported by the quote "Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley". "Orbiting Sidious" should explicitly support the idea of Plagueis running around Sidious, which would be how the blade could orbit Palpatine in the first place. Sidious, similarly, would have run around Plagueis, deflecting the blaster fire. If you already agree with me that they would have been running around each other, then the last part should be simple - their running speed should have to be superior to the speed of the blaster fire. They would have had to outrun the blaster bolts if they were to deflect blaster fire from the entire ring, which is certainly a decent feat. I'm not sure if I would contend that Maul couldn't replicate this feat, to my memory, he did also outpace blaster bolts, although I don't recall him deflecting blaster fire from this many of them at any point whilst doing so.
This is the other feat:
This carries a number of connotations. First, Sidious and Plagueis were utilizing Force pikes to defeat the Kursid army, which would indicate that Sidious would not be particularly surprised or anything of that sort by Savage's doublesaber. This can also serve as a skill feat, although I don't find it terribly overwhelming. However, it is a very good speed feat. Sidious and Plagueis were able to fight an entire army of the most skilled Kursid warriors, and avoid being hit by any of their axes, spears or arrows. As Silver once noted before, the description "flying among them like wraiths" would indicate they also leapt into the midst of the armies, especially considering the word "among". As a speed feat, this exceeds anything Maul has ever shown. I don't recall anybody on Maul's class defeating an entire army without sustaining a single hit, especially since Sidious was using a Force pike and not a lightsaber, which negates the possibility of deflecting projectiles like arrows. Moreover, Sidious and Plagueis also completely disused their offensive Force powers, so it was more or less them exercising solely speed and agility. They also fought for hours on end, an extremely impressive stamina feat, so this should eliminate any argument about Sidious tiring. As a feat, this outclasses anything your team has ever shown.
I definitely think Maul can approach this level of speed. He's sprinted at about 70mph, dodged a 60mph freight train coming at him where even the best athletes would have been ran over, moved faster than recording equipment can see and moved faster than a droid could pick up. As for replicating the blitzing of an army, while dodging projectiles, Maul has also done this, twice, to quite a similar extent. Once when he speedblitzed 20 meters worth of Gungans while avoiding spears and bombs, and again when he speedblitzed multiple squads (8 each) of battle droids. He's also single handedly killed over 40 armed Black Sun enforcers coming from all directions, using just physical attacks. So I don't think Sidious really has him beat by too much, if I'm being honest.
All feats below:
Maul running five times faster than a human can travel.
But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Dodges a freight train coming at him at over 100km/h (or, over 60mph).
He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Moves so fast that recording equipment needs to be slowed down to see him.
When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.
Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul
Moves faster than a droid can see.
Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. He would of been deflecting dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.
Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.
End Game
Maul clearing through a 20 meter line's worth of Gungan soldiers, decapitating and slicing in half all of them, while dodging their spears and bombs.
Some of the Gungan riders saw him coming and took aim. Maul twisted his body, either evading flights of energy lances and spheres or fending them off with the lightsaber. Letting go of the STAP when he was still twenty meters from Ganne and the general, he called on the Force to send himself tearing through a score of mounted Gungans. It was clear that they had never seen anything like him. But then, who had? What Sith in the past thousand years had been allowed to wield a lightsaber in open battle? Was that in itself not enough to qualify him as atrue Sith?
The rubbery Gungans all but disintegrated at the touch of the twin blades Maul had hoped to reserve for the Jedi. Their billed heads flew in all directions. His slashes halved them down the middle or through the midsection, and they squawked as they died. Their nostrils flared and their eyes bulged from their heads, and the white sand beach grew puddled with their blood. Maul maneuvered closer to Ganne, cutting the legs out from under the Gungans’ mounts or impaling them on his lightsaber. He launched himself into the air when he was still five meters from the Boss and the general. The latter lost his head to one of the blades, and Ganne was knocked from his mount by Maul’s extended left hand.
End Game
Gallery
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As for Savage, he's quite fast, but not as fast as Sidious. His role here in all honesty is to keep Sidious at bay while restricting his Force advantage, just like Maul is here to restrict him speedblitzing anyone with his comparable skill and speed. Boba is icing on the cake, here to prevent Sidious from gaining anything more than a momentary advantage.
To be honest, I think Sidious' speed collectively outweighs your team's. Silver did note that Sidious was collectively faster than Grievous, Ventress and Durge, and that team is faster than yours. Now, you don't necessarily have to agree with Silver, and you can raise an objection if you want, but I would agree. We saw in Witches of the Mist that Dooku was easily capable of dodging many of Savage's strikes, and Sidious is significantly faster, vastly more agile, and infinitely superior in terms of running speed. I severely doubt Savage would ever get a hit, and the same goes for Boba. Maul is probably the only person on your team that I find to be capable of landing physical blows.
I wouldn't say he collectively outweighs my team. I'd say he collectively rivals my teams speed, given that Maul is fast enough himself to avoid being blitzed, and Savage and Boba's presence itself offsets Sidious' ability to fully focus his speed on any one person.
Just a side point: I think people need to stop bringing up Silver in debates. It's happened to me twice in the space of only about 12 hours. Yes, Silver is arguably the best and most knowledgeable Star Wars debater on the site, but the title says "ILS vs Nova", not "ILS vs Nova featuring Silver's ghost". His subjective statements are not infalliable, and while he is reputable, using his opinions to bolster your own argument defeats the point of you debating against me, and isn't really fair in general. Besides, his opinion doesn't have any really weight over what we specifically are discussing. I think people should just avoid mentioning his posts altogether in order to be independent as a debater themselves.
Dooku did that by virtue of being more skilled, not solely because of being faster. It's never been stated anywhere that Savage is embarrassed in such ways because he is slow - that is a myth created by people who think he's a lumbering brute.
Savage will be able to land a Force blast at some point in the fight IMO, and Maul will uphold his responsibility of keeping Sidious at bay with his unarmed mastery (which Sidious hasn't really shown an ability to compensate for IIRC). Boba is there for general harassment, and could maybe provide my team one win out of ten just by catching Sidious off-guard or even blowing him up.
Strength and durability don't seem to have a huge bearing our fight right now, so I'll leave it as it is, but if we bring this up, then I will certainly begin providing evidence for Palpatine in those regards. At the moment, I think your team's relative lack of defense against Sidious' sheer power (except for Savage) could prove helpful for Palpatine. I stand by Sidious winning a difficult or potentially brutal 6-7/10 through sheer speed and power expenditure, with the aid of his other physical attributes and combat skill.
I don't think those are big factors, since really this fight is about who is going to have their defences opened up for a one-hit-kill first.
Their defence against his power is their offence. Sidious has not shown the ability to abuse his Force power (which is only rivalling Savage's if we avoid speculation) against such a high caliber group of opponents. Maul and Savage will already be dividing his efforts in two - now Boba is niggling in the back of his mind because one blaster or laser to the back could spell his end. I think you're overrating Sidious' ability to dominate them individually because they are attacking him collectively with more versatility than a swiss army knife.
Sheer speed won't help because speed blitzing is prevented. Sheer power expenditure is prevented because he is rivaled in this regard. But my numbers and versatility advantage, is not compensated for in your argument, because Sidious has not shown the ability to cope with such a group of opponents.
I'm not sure he would be that strained, though. There's a chance Boba will be a non-factor from the outset, and even excluding that, his value in the actual fight is only worth so much, and Sidious can use him against his team as well. After some revision, I actually think an 8/10 might work. You'll have to convince me that Boba is worth more or else he probably isn't worth much at all.
Well you obviously don't think he's a non-factor considering you suggested I use him in the PM :p.
His value in this fight is worth quite a lot considering how he held Vader at bay, for a sufficient amount of time he could allow Maul and Savage to come back into the fight after being separated. And even then, that's an implausible scenario to put Boba in because your argument is completely reliant on Sidious abusing speed and power - attributes he is rivaled in.
However, my team is not rivaled in versatility or a sheer numbers advantage, and even you have agreed that numbers as a lone factor can grant my team a win out of ten. I think you are beginning to enter the realm of reaching when you say Boba is non-factor and Sidious is winning 8/10 without strain.
And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.
This isn't important because it was a "trickle" of strength and he would still be hampered.
Maul's anger turned to rage.
Maul has been stated as being in a "rage" in other fights and even general moments of anger. This was my findings from Lockdown alone:
And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.
This statement alone only suggests he's angrier than ever, and does not translate to how he performed.
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
This talks about how Maul feels and what he wants and is not objective of his abilities. He's angrier than ever, and is optimistically contemplating killing his master because he has nothing to lose at this point. Maul has always been determined. But it does not take away from the fact he was in an absolutely horrendous physical state.
Having underlined the important elements regarding the fight, you should have known that Maul received a burst of rage unlike any other he had experienced before that amplified his abilities, which more or less eradicated the weakness and feebleness he had. Moreover, Sidious was just using a training saber and hardly ever attacked Maul. He won without even trying. You'll find the same things in the Episode 1 Journal. So yes, I do believe Sidious has a skill advantage.
Granted, he did receive a temporary boost that at the very least, allowed him to stop staggering around in a limp. But he would not have been at his best and there's no way you can show that he was. Maul has been hampered by relatively minor injuries before, never mind an infected, untreated blaster wound and all the other fatigue and dietary implications he had.
It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
The pain in his leg was exquisite.
Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at this Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.
He will fall heavily, like a monument.
But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.
Maul leaped over the Jedi, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul, despite being better than Qui-Gon overall, was not able to gain the advantage he had over him in their second fight, because he was injured, even after fueling himself with the dark side. He was only really even with Qui-Gon, despite Qui-Gon's inferior stamina which forced him to retreat.
And that was with a minor injury. Nothing compared to Maul being put through 14 straight days of sensory deprivation suits, being deprived of food, fighting lightsaber wielding droids, contending with disciplinary electrodes, being exposed to extreme tempratures and going through razor edged mazes blindfolded. And then going through a month of eating nothing but raw animals on a sparsely populated Hypori, having to live in a desert, swamp and mountains, thinning, losing strength, being completely deprived of sleep and having to constantly wake up to fight groups of Assassin Droids, and even sustaining a blaster injury to his bare thigh, having it go untreated and then becoming infected.
I seriously can not trust your interpretation of the events to the point that Maul was better than ever when he fought Sidious. No level of anger would return Maul his normal levels, never mind better than them. Maul thought and felt he was doing well but he was still staggering into walls even when Sidious had induced a rage (which hasn't helped Maul cope with injuries sufficiently anyway).
Even if Maul had improved significantly when he was angry, the level of which he improved from his horrendous physical state is entirely ambiguous and reasonable thinking leads me to think it wasn't nearly enough to overcome the torment his body had been put through.
So no, Sidious did not beat a fresh Darth Maul.
I never said Maul was at a better level than he was. However, he entered a state of Force Rage which amplified his abilities to the point where he felt like he could accomplish anything, which, to me, sounds like it would be enough to return him to a regular fighting stage. I underlined that in the post I made above. His strength evaporated eventually (key word), but his rage served him for most of the fight.
You also neglected the circumstances for Sidious, and you never responded to any of that. Palpatine was faster than Maul could even see at that point (not at this point, but I'm just referencing the circumstances), but he slowed himself down enough so as to let Maul see him, which wouldn't have happened in the first place in a real fighting scenario. Sidious was also only using a training saber, and he hardly ever attacked Maul. Palpatine also never directly attacked Maul with TK, and he only pulled Maul's lightsaber out of his hand. Even if Maul was somewhat out of shape (again, he was also being amped, and at the height of that rage which transcended anything he had ever felt before, it seemed as if he would have been on par with his natural self), Sidious won without even trying. That Sidious is faster than the Sidious in this fight, but the point stands. This Sidious will be fully exercising all of his physical capabilities and power expenditure, will be wielding a real lightsaber, will actually attack Maul, and he will not simply tear the lightsaber from Maul with TK. If he elected to use TK, Maul would be powerless. We can discuss how Savage would factor in against this later on.
Regarding Qui-Gon, Maul was not even with him at all. He was faster and stronger and Qui-Gon was being rapidly driven back:
His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.
Source: The Phantom Menace
Even excluding stamina issues, Qui-Gon was already losing. He never made any sufficient offensive, which was the strong suit of Form IV. He was on the defensive just about the entire time, which is the weakness of Form IV.
No, they aren't irrelevant and you're neglecting to counter the point that Sidious trained Maul in physical combat as well as he could. You are only explaining that Maul was no threat to Sidious in physical and Force power areas. You have not accounted for the fact he trained Maul to be as skilled as possible because he could afford to. Sidious training Maul to be as skilled as him in lightsaber combat is backed up by the fact Sidious gave him the best training he could at the Orsis academy, and has stated himself Maul is elegant and precise. Not to mention Maul has gone down as one of the "most skilled" and "most highly trained" Sith duelists in galactic history.
One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.
As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.
There were no holds barred for Sidious when skill was concerned. In that department, he taught Maul all he knew, and more. And he could afford to give Maul this level of skill, because he knew he had far greater Force reserves than him.
Which source stated Sidious trained Maul everything Sidious knew? Unless you were meaning to say he taught Maul everything Maul knew, which... well, is obvious. Sidious is still definitely more skilled than Maul, which we saw in TCW when he repelled both Maul and Savage at once. This iteration may not be exactly as skilled, but then, the key word is "may". To our knowledge, Sidious had stopped receiving lightsaber training, and he was out of practice for more than a decade during their fight in TCW. He had never even brandished a lightsaber since TPM, to our knowledge, and whether TPM Sidious was more skilled than this iteration can also be argued since Sidious had stopped focusing on lightsaber combat and received no more training in that regard since 54-52 BBY. Sidious' other areas were advanced, but then, he spent his time increasing his Force power, and if his reserves increased, then his other physical attributes may have been also (since if he increased his power, he could also increase his physical amplifications), but nothing indicates his skill increased. A power increase is not translatable to a skill increase, and one might make an argument for Sidious' skill increasing, but one could also make an argument for otherwise, and I don't really see Sidious improving a whole lot since 52BBY, if at all. Between no longer receiving lightsaber training all the way until TPM, and then being out of practice with a lightsaber for more than a decade following TPM, I'm not sure I would portend Sidious' skill increased.
And even following the idea that Sidious' skill did increase, it should only be by a relatively small amount, hence why I believe this iteration of Sidious should be slightly more skilled than Maul.
And did Sidious himself not match Plagueis in knowledge and wisdom? You've hammered home the point that Sidious' physical and force abilities exceed Maul's, but you can not then use that to apply it to skill level. Because Sidious taught Maul everything he could in terms of lightsaber skill (hence "one of the most highly trained") and Sidious wasn't the only one to teach him a number of martial arts. Maul had mastered a roughly equal amount of different martial arts at the Orsis academy, at the age of thirteen alone. He then went on to maximize what he could learn at the Orsis academy, and began learning from a Mandalorian, all while not being allowed to even utilize all of his force reserves. These are conditions of training Sidious has not been subjected to, because was trained without Force speed at Orsis.
All in all, Sidious taught Maul all he could regarding lightsaber combat, which includes whatever Plagueis would have taught Sidious, and he could afford to do so because he has more Force reserves than Maul. Not to mention Maul has received an extensive amount of master-level combatant training from a source Sidious himself has never been able to learn from.
Sidious, in pure skill, is not exceeding Maul. He's about even. There is no noticeable difference there.
Sidious didn't match Plagueis in knowledge or wisdom by this stage. Sidious never imparted to Maul all of his (Sidious') lightsaber skills considering Maul is only a master of several lightsaber forms, not all, which, according to The Clone Wars Episode Guide, Sidious was a master of (although I don't have this source so you'll have to ask Intrepid37 about it).
Also, how do you translate this as Maul knowing what Plagueis taught to Sidious? I don't recall Maul mastering a Force pike or familiarizing himself with countless different types of weapons (he knew many, but I don't recall him knowing as many as Sidious), and the training styles being employed by Plagueis and Sidious are completely different. Maul's training was more focused on physicality than Sidious, but Sidious' reserves and potential exceeded Maul's, which was why his other physical capabilities exceeded Maul's in spite of having less focus on that area. Skill may not be as translatable as in other areas, but even if it would be a relatively weak link, a link could be made. Maul was also trained to the fullest for his other physical attributes such as his endurance and strength, but Sidious, who never had as much focus on these areas (that we know of) as Maul, exceeded him here as well.
Maul has done better on numerous occasions. Does that mean Sidious was putting him in a position to let him be killed? Of course not. Sidious, and Plagueis, would not put their apprentices into a task that would threaten their life if they did not know they could overcome it. Plagueis and Sidious are both beings ho practiced advanced precognition, and they would know how to maximise their training without killing their apprentices. As for my statement about Maul doing better on numerous occasions:
When Maul was between the ages of 7-10, he was one day knocked out by his training droid, Deenine. When Maul awoke, he was in the middle of nowhere on the inhospitable lava planet - Mustafar. He had been left with no provisions, no weapons.. nothing. His first instinct was to follow a group of Mustafarians, kill them, and take their food and supplies in order to survive. Maul, using these tactics, endured the harshness of Mustafar for 17 days. He only went to sleep twice. And he wasn't even 10 years old at the time.
His survival instincts are completely supernatural even at such a young age. It's also worth mentioning that he had two broken ribs and a snapped left arm prior to and during this time period.
He pushed himself up. He was on a broad slab of rock on Mustafar's surface. The loud roaring sound came from a nearby rocky vent that was spewing lava. He didn't know how long he'd been outside or even how far he was from Sidous's facility. But he knew he had not arrived at this place on his own.
He looked around. He saw no sign of TD-D9 or Sidious, or of any other kind of shelter. Although they had not taken away the clothes and bandages he was wearing, they had not left him with any provisions. But he did have something to his advantage. He had his training.
Maul was not scared. He felt free. He could live or perish on this hostile world without anyone to tell him what to do. And then he realized he was not in any way eager to die. He became resolved to survive. He would do anything and everything necessary to stay alive.
He saw a dark shape move past the lava vent. Crouching low to the ground, ignoring the pain from his ribs and left arm, he watched with wonder as a tall masked Mustafarian rode by on a massive six-legged lava flea. Two more flea-mounted Mustafarians followed.
Maul had no idea where the Mustafarians were headed, whether they were going to a mining camp or back to their remote village. He would track them, find their food, and steal it. If it became necessary to kill them to ensure his own survival, he would gather rocks to strike them dead or strangle them with his own bandages and broken bones. And then he would find his way back to Sidous and prove that he was indeed a strong boy. He would prove that he feared nothing.
He would earn the respect of his Master.
The Three Mustafarians moved off. Maul followed them.
***
"Ah, you have returned," Sidious said to Maul, who stood before him in the tapestry-decorated chamber in the Mustafar facility. Sidious was holding a small container of food pellets, which he had been gently pushing into the hovering watery orb to feed the fish. Maul's head was covered with soot and dirt, and his torso was adorned with ill-fitting, bloodstained Mustafarian armor. Looking at the armor, Sidious smiled. "I see you kept busy during your little outing."
The spider-legged droid TD-D9 stood a short distance behind Maul. The droid's right front leg was missing, and one of it's left legs was mangled. "I found him outside, Master Sidious," TD-D9 said, "not far from the landing pad. He'd set a trap. I walked right into it." Raising one of its pincer arms, the droid held out the shattered remains of its front right leg. "Maul could have destroyed me."
Sidious set aside the fish food and looked at Maul skeptically. "Is this true? You could have destroyed the droid?"
"Yes, Master Sidious," Maul replied.
"Then why didn't you?"
Maul tilted his chin toward the droid, "Because I wanted to bring this thing back to you in pieces."
Sidious smiled again. "Maul, do you know how long you were running around on Mustafar's surface?"
Maul grimaced. "I'm not certain, Master Sidious. I fell asleep twice while I was outside."
"Well, I'll tell you, then. You survived outside for seventeen standard days. I doubt very much that many boys your age - and that includes young Mustafarians - could accomplish such a thing without a wealth of provisions and emergency equipment. I commend you."
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul, near the end of his time training at the Orsis Academy, took part in the "Gora", an infamous challenge in which a cadet is left in inhospitable conditions with nothing more a vibroblade. He is to survive for seven days, while killing a variety of large predators constantly. Not only did Maul survive - he had the time of his life, going as far as to kill these predators for sport.
For Maul, the current exercise was merely a warm-up for a bigger challenge on Orsis, an Academy rite of passage called the Gora. Named after the challenge's location, an immense volcanic crater filled with dense forsts, vast swamps, and bloodthirsty beasts. The Gora required a cadet to traverse the crater for seven days, surviving without food or equipment except for a single vibroblade.
***
The first day of the Gora was beyond intense.
The second day was even more brutal.
The third, fourth, fifth, and sixth days were increasingly bloody. And Maul was having the time of his life.
Countless wild predators kept him constantly occupied as well as sleepless. Except for his heightened senses and physical strength, he did not use the Force in any obvious way. With his vibroblade more often in his hand than in the sheath strapped to his upper leg, he moved like a jungle animal through the forests and grassy swamps that filled the enormous crater, killing some beasts in self-defence, some for food, and others for sheer sport.
Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul
Note* He didn't finish the 7th day because his attempt at the Gora was interrupted by a third party.
Would Sidious have put Maul through all of that if he knew he could die? Of course not. No point in risking killing an apprentice with a task they aren't ready for.
Which reinforces my point that if Sidious and Plagueis did in fact spar, it was not for life and death every time, and Sidious was not by merit of this as skilled as Plageuis at this time. Which is further reinforced by the fact Sidious drugged/made Plagueis drunk and fall asleep in order to kill him.
Sidious is not taking a skill advantage over Maul just because he learnt from Plagueis or sparred with him, because he transferred all of his lightsaber skill over to Maul, and his sparring with Plagueis was not to the death. And Plagueis had to be killed in his sleep by Sidious, going to show he was no match for his master.
Practicing advanced precognition is not a suitable argument, especially considering Tenebrous's retrovirus cut off Plagueis' foresight abilities. He could only receive sporadic Force visions which he had no control over, and that happened once when he saw Anakin becoming Darth Vader. The entire idea of Sith training, especially within the Banite Sith Order (and Maul was only semi-Banite Sith), is that if an apprentice was killed during paltry sessions of training, then he was simply unfit to be a Sith Lord. That was taken as common knowledge at every training session. You are still translating Maul's training to Sidious', and that is not even appropriate anyways regarding their different training, and the fact that Maul was not even a true Banite Sith Lord.
Regarding the training - it may not have been for life and death every time, but it should have been some times. Sidious not being more skilled means nothing. There is no shame in him losing.
Again, which source indicates Sidious transferred all of his skills to Maul? Later fights clearly indicate that Sidious is more skilled, and so do feats.
Moreover, if Sidious killing Plagueis is indicative of automatically being inferior, then Plagueis killing Tenebrous while the latter was preoccupied would indicate that Tenebrous couldn't have been killed by Plagueis in a realistic combat situation, and this is simply false. Sidious killed Plagueis after he was intoxicated to assure his chances, not because he would have had no chance in a realistic combat scenario, especially given how most of his traits rival Plagueis' and one of them outright exceeds Plagueis' anyways, and Plagueis, in turn, has two advantages over him. Sidious was not "no match" for Plagueis.
Yes. Exactly. In proportion this is the equivalent of Maul defeating a fleet of Assassin Droids under terrible physical and environmental conditions with improvised weapons - no force pike or lightsaber. So I don't see why you think Sidious or Maul were 1. Had any difference in the danger level of their training or 2. Were actually at risk of dying, becoming a waste of years of training for their masters.
I never made a comparison between Sidious and Maul's danger levels anyways - the entire initial argument was that Sidious' training with Plagueis carried the connotation of sparring with each other, and that would not have been as paltry as Jedi sparring, and the idea of Sith training was that if an apprentice died during training, then they were unworthy to be a Sith Lord. All I was doing was bringing up Sidious' sparring with Plagueis, and I have no idea why you chose to take this as an argument against Maul.
Sidious directly instructed Maul in lightsaber combat as well, in his private castle overlooking the Orsis academy. Am I now using this to imply life-threatening sparring between Maul and Sidious? No. Because I can't know if they sparred, or how they sparred, just like you can't know if Sidious and his master sparred. And the fact is Sidious was no match for Plagueis anyway so it's really irrelevant how their hypothetical sparring went anyway
Your comparisons of Maul and Sidious are not translatable to Sidious and Plagueis because they trained in different manners, for different purposes, and because Maul was not even a full Banite Sith Lord. He was not even intended to succeed Sidious - all he was was a tool, and an assassin, and his uses were already potentially expiring by TPM, when Sidious had plans for recruiting Dooku to the dark side.
I addressed Sidious not being a match for Plagueis above, which is a very weak basis for an argument for a number of factors:
1. Sidious can certainly present a challenge to Plagueis, from feats, and rivals him in a number of areas, and even has the edge in one area.
2. Sidious intoxicating Plagueis before killing him was simply the result of the dark side whispering to him to do so, just as the dark side whispered to Plagueis to kill Tenebrous while the latter was unoccupied. This is not indicative of anything except that the apprentice needed to ensure his chances.
3. Sidious killed Plagueis through power, not skill, and I see no reason for Sidious to not be a match for Plagueis in skill.
I repeat - my initial argument was that Sidious probably did spar with Plagueis under inference from Banite Sith training, which is not at all relevant to Maul's style of training (which was what you brought up as a response), and that Sith sparring is not as paltry or freestyle as Jedi sparring, which is correct. Not all of their spars may have been completely life-threatening, but at least some of them should, which would be a method for hardening the apprentice as a Sith Lord. We're talking far too much about training which is relatively irrelevant at the moment.
Granted Sidious could rip down the restaurant effortlessly, but the restaurant wasn't made from nigh-indestructible Mandalorian Iron, which Savage was able to crack before he released his actual blast. I think Sidious would also have to extend this level of effort to effort to crack the iron. And the amount of effort exerted in these feats doesn't take precedence over the feats performed themselves. We don't know the upper limits of Sidious' force abilities, only that he could effortlessly collapse this restaurant. And even then, how do we know the ins and outs of such a feat? Would Sidious flat out collapse the entire restaurant all at once? Would he rip it's foundations apart and then let it crumble? Would he deconstruct it in portions? How long would it take? These are questions Sidious' musing cannot answer, and thus to a level, make the feat ambiguous, despite how impressive it is. I'm sure Savage could replicate it just as effortlessly given that their shown feats are quite even, and we don't know how Sidious would go about carrying out his musing specifically.
Their shown feats are not even at all. Sidious effortlessly collapsing a mansion ceiling and Savage requiring effort to accomplish just about all of his feats that are comparable to that are telling.
To answer some of your questions - the time taken should be instant or near-instant given that it would have been effortless.
How effortless it would be, he thought, as the dark began to rise in him, searing and hungry, yearning to assume control of his body and unleash itself, to break the necks of both of them, to tear their beating hearts from their chests, to hurl and plaster them against the walls, to bring the entire sour-smelling place down on their heads...
But he didn’t. He needed to meet his abductor. He needed to learn the names of all those responsible. He needed to prove to his Master that he was adroit and capable—a true Sith Lord.
Source: Darth Plagueis
The way it's worded "to bring the entire sour-smelling place down on their heads" would mean that he would have outright collapsed the restaurant.
While I agree that the amount of effort doesn't take precedence over the potency of the feat, it is certainly worth noting and in a number of circumstances is capable of overriding the quality of the actual feat itself.
The misconception with your comparison to Savage pushing a ship, and lifting orbalisks, is that when Sidious pulled down a mansion ceiling he would of had a considerable amount of help from gravity when performing this feat, once the foundations were falling apart in the ceiling.
Is Dooku not? Him lifting all those Orbalisks, as well as blasting, choking and restraining Savage (who has comparable feats to Sidious) effortlessly is definitely an indicator he had exceeded Palpatine at this point.
Granted, but if you take this route, then Savage required at least moderate to considerable effort to push the ship only a few meters, and then it would have slid off the cliff by virtue of gravity alone. On the other hand, Sidious was effortlessly taking down material that encompassed a larger surface area (although, to be fair, the ship was taller and had more internal material, but this is somewhat irrelevant when Savage was only pushing the ship, not supporting it or collapsing it).
Dooku has never effortlessly collapsed restaurants or accomplished anything rivaling this. He would have been close, but not quite on par.
Why not? Maul (during TCW) was blatantly better at lifting things than Savage, and Savage was blatantly better at blasting things than Maul (on a consistent basis). Which makes sense given Savage is just raw power, and Maul has shown refinement in his telekinetics to a level Savage hasn't. Maul pulling a ship off of a cliff is a better feat than Savage pushing one, due to the nature of the act being performed, in case you were going to bring that up, especially since the ship Maul pulled was bigger than the one Savage pushed. Want examples of the difference in their force application?
Savage blasting Jedi during a fight.
Maul, moments after, using a telekinetic pulling feat to escape.
Actually, Maul and Savage have quite comparable blasting feats, but due to the fact Savage is less refined, he is evidently not as good as Maul at lifting things. So I hold by my view that Savage is very proficient at releasing force blasts, but is not refined enough to lift and hold certain objects as easily as he could blast them.
Power =/= Refinement
So in terms of force power, in accordance with how they apply it, Savage and Sidious are quite even.
Lifting things has always been a matter of potency, more so than refinement, and Savage has shown enough refinement and control in utilizing saber throw, stopping knives, etc - and you do not need that level of refinement to lift something as large as an obelisk. Savage having bombastic and environmentally destructive plays has some bearing on his telekinetic potency, and the level of refinement and control he has based off utilizing saber throw and stopping knives is more than enough to lift objects. It was simply a matter of his potency being inferior to Dooku's.
This is still not a suitable argument. Lifting things does not require much refinery at all, especially if you visualize yourself doing it physically. Lifting a heavy box only requires strength, not a level of refinery that is beyond most humans. Telekinesis is somewhat different, but telekinetic strength operates in the same manner as physical strength. So Dooku being able to lift a dozen of them with moderate effort while an enraged Savage lifted two with maximum effort is a perfectly valid argument for my side. Utilizing Maul, an irrelevant third-party member that had no bearing on the obelisk-lifting feat, is reaching considerably. I repeat - Savage has shown a level of "refinery", as you call it, sufficient enough to lift objects, the issue with him struggling to lift objects would have been due to his power, not his lack of refinery which he was able to exercise. I have no idea what Maul's superior level of refinery translates to, because we were never discussing Maul in the first place.
Granted, but you would now be going into the realm of speculation to determine what Sidious' upper limits are, and we don't even know how he would go about "effortlessly" tearing down the restaurant, because it is not explicitly stated. He could of done it in a way Savage could also effortlessly do, like rip down foundations or target specific areas of the restaurant to create a domino effect of destruction. The material of the restaurants build are hardly of similar constitution to a Mandalorian Iron prison cell.
Savage has just about no feats of actually collapsing objects, though. Not that he couldn't, but it's just worth mentioning. But then, I wasn't determining Sidious' upper limits, and even if you translate Savage's feat as almost on par with Sidious', you would be neglecting that Savage required "charge-up time" as well as maximum effort while Sidious' one would have been effortless, so Sidious should be superior in any respect. Savage is not getting outright dominated by TK, but he shouldn't be on Palpatine's level.
You raise some good issues, which I will go about countering.
For one, Boba will not have to be near Sidious. Sidious will have his hands full with Maul and Savage alone, allowing Boba to do the smart thing and make distance with his jetpack. Boba would more than likely be utilizing his blaster from a safe distance any time he can catch Sidious at a moment of weakness, as is the mind set of a bounty hunter. Boba has a wrist laser and a vaporizing setting for his blaster - both low AoE but high damage weapons that would cause serious damage to Sidious on impact.
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Even a minor wound from one of these would set Sidious back.
Boba would have a less explosive arsenal to utilize, but a potent one nonetheless. Also I'd like to point out that if Sidious does, as you say, abuse his raw force power and separates the group, there could be an opportunity for Boba to let off a mini-concussion rocket if Savage and Maul are out of the way.
I don't think Boba would dare get close enough to use a flamethrower and I don't think there is much to catch fire from his explosions, should he end up using him. Sidious' fire manipulation is noteworthy but largely not an important factor. If Sidious was too close I think Boba would opt for a tactic more akin to using a sonic grenade to disorientate him.
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The difference here is that Boba's perceptive and reaction speeds are insufficient to respond to Sidious. I think the most pertinent issue for you is to show me some speed feats for Boba to indicate he could react to Palpatine, who has killed people fast enough to make it look as if they were butchered by a phantom, among other speed feats that are already mentioned. Since Maul and Savage are slower than Sidious, I am somewhat doubting their ability to prevent Sidious from speedblitzng Boba from the onset, or in another appropriate situation. I forgot to list the starting distance, and as per battle forum rules, it would be ten meters of starting distance as a result, and that should be easy for Sidious to get through.
Regarding blaster fire - that would be of nearly no consequence to Palpatine, unless Boba is behind him whilst the brothers are in front of him and Sidious has to combat them all at once. Sidious would have no difficulty deflecting or dodging those blaster bolts, considering he has deflected huge rings of droids' worth of blaster bolts, dodged armies' worth of projectiles and other weapons, outran blaster bolts, etc. Boba cannot keep up. Sidious was able to utilize his telekinetic abilities whilst deflecting blaster fire from a dozen or so men, and Boba is not generating a more rapid level of firepower than that, or even on par with that. Whilst I agree Boba could defeat a dozen regular troops, this is not the same as Fett producing a rivaling or even approachable level of blaster fire. Moreover, Boba has no defense against Sidious' powers, which, if given the chance to operate on a precise scale, could crush Boba's equipment or crush his internal organs, although that probably won't happen for the majority. However, Sidious would be able to ragdoll Boba with a thought which might render his presence nearly useless except to detract from Palpatine's efforts on the brothers, but again, it would only require a thought to ragdoll Fett.
I don't think it's a plausible scenario personally, but I'll humor it. They aren't going to be able to endure having their skin roasted? I beg to differ given exactly that has happened to Maul, and he's been able to ignore it and continue escaping an elevator.
He closed his eyes, summoning the power of the dark side, searching the hatch, probing it for structural weakness. It didn’t budge. Blinking back sweat, he rededicated himself to the task at hand. It was growing feverishly hot inside the lift, where Warden Blirr had no doubt intended to roast him alive, or until she broke down whatever rebellious aspect she saw in him, and turned him into … what? Her mascot, her house pet, or something even more servile?
The notion revolted him, and he jammed the metal strip in deeper between the locked hatch and its housing, wiggling it back and forth. Boiling with impatience, he released a concentrated energy field against the hatch, battering it, but it still wouldn’t budge.
Maul cursed, the anger rising up inside him from wherever it lived and toiled endlessly. Tightening his grip on the makeshift tool, he started working again on the hatch, forcing himself to take his time, fighting to ignore the suffocating heat, the baked air that filled his lungs, as if he were drawing breath directly from a blast furnace.
He fixed his gaze straight up. The hatch itself, an unremarkable twelve-by-eighteen-centimeter rectangle, had become his entire world. Twelve by eighteen, and in the end it represented the difference between completing his mission and perishing in shame and obscurity.
Slipher— Radique— the khipus—
He clenched his teeth , the heat very close to him now, pressing in from all sides, clinging to him like a second skin. By now the walls had become scalding steel plates, burning the palm of his hand and the fingers holding him in place. The inside of his mouth felt cool by comparison. A drop of sweat hit the floor and he realized that he could actually hear it sizzle. If the temperature kept going up like this, he guessed that he might have another minute or two before he blacked out from heat prostration, and then—
He kept working. There was an odd, meaty smell rising up around him, and when his blistered palm shifted slightly on the wall, he realized that it was his own flesh beginning to roast. Master. I will not fail.
He breathed in, breathed out. An odd, narcotic dizziness had started to take hold of him , and he reached down deep into whatever remained of his consciousness, forcing himself to focus. He needed to find Eogan Truax. If he could just— All at once, the hatch popped open.
Maul: Lockdown
He was easily in 200+++ degree heats here. His flesh was roasting. He was balancing on the same steel plating that was scalding his palms to a crisp. He could of passed out from heat exhaustion much earlier but he endured all of it and bust open the steel hatch. Absolutely insane pain tolerance.
And I'd argue Savage could as well, based on the fact he is by virtue of his physical build, more durable than Maul, but I'll leave it there. And again, it's not a plausible scenario anyway because it would require a great deal of out-of-character incompetence on Boba's part.
It's plausible, but it's just unlikely to happen.
Regarding Maul's feat - that is not translatable to this fighting scenario. 200° heat is only so much, and not comparable to realistic fires at all. A candle flame alone is more than 1000°. This is not representative of him having to fight whilst enduring temperatures vastly beyond 200° - and probably well beyond 1000°.
For Savage - his durability mostly relates to physical trauma, although he did resist multiple barrages of Dooku's Lightning, but that did not go unfelt.
I entirely beg to differ. Fett can definitely keep a faster opponents hands full. Not saying Boba is going to bypass Sidious' defences, but all Sidious would logically be doing is defending from Boba's arsenal.
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He was able to prevent Vader from speedblizting him instantly using is myriad of weapons. Am I saying he beat Vader? No. But I am saying he held him back for enough time for, say, Maul and Savage to return to the fight and help him. Which is what he could do here in the scenario the brothers aren't fighting Sidious. And I'll counter why that scenario is also quite implausible later.
Come on, now. This was Vader three years before ANH, in which he was described as a mere shadow of his former self. He didn't improve drastically until TESB. So I would argue that Sidious is certainly more skilled than this iteration of Vader, not to mention vastly faster in terms of speed and agility and infinitely superior in terms of running speed, more powerful, and Boba doesn't have a plot device. This is not translatable to this fight by any stretch of the imagination.
Boba relied on his plot device for the entirety of the fight, and Vader, being completely inferior to Sidious at this level in pretty much all areas, defeated Boba without ever directly attacking him, which is not happening here because Sidious will be directly attacking Fett, not to mention possessing greater speed and reserves and violent brutality than Vader. Boba required a cheap-shot to hit Vader (and this shouldn't have happened considering Vader's senses, precognition and clairvoyance) - this will not be happening to Sidious, and I have no idea why Vader didn't simply Choke Boba from the onset like he did here:
Boba lasted because of PIS. That is as simple as it gets. Between Vader neglecting to simply use his powers on Boba from the onset of the fight, Boba relying on his PIS card to survive and still losing when Vader never even directly attacked him, then getting in a final cheap shot, again due to PIS, this is not a good showing for Boba, and it is not translating to anything in a fight where Boba doesn't have a plot device, and he is facing an opponent who is vastly faster than Vader, especially in running speed where Vader is nil by comparison, as well as an opponent who will not be neglecting to utilize his powers.
Boba's fight with Vader is completely meaningless in this scenario.
The problem with this argument is that you're under the impression Sidious won't have his hands full dealing with Maul - an incredibly versatile and unpredictable fighter - Savage - someone who rivals him in telekinetic potency -, and Boba - someone who is a complete wildcard for Sidious to cope with, who will have to deal with Fett trying to shoot him in the back constantly as he is dueling. That level of versatility is hard to overcome just by being powerful, and even if he did scatter the group, all he would do is provoke Boba into doing this, which would put the duel back on even footing:
You see what I'm getting at? Numbers and versatility will overwhelm Sidious. He can try to scatter them and pick them off individually but they will always have options readily available to set Sidious back in his efforts, like a Force blast from Savage or a rocket from Boba.
You still haven't offered me any legitimate speed feats to suggest that Sidious wouldn't speedblitz Boba from the onset, or that he wouldn't speedblitz Boba as soon he scatters them with TK. Boba will not be able to lock on to a target who is vastly faster than peak human/lowest-tier superhuman or mechanical perceptions can respond. I'm not sure Fett can even react here, so you'll have to give me some real speed feats that don't entail Boba having a plot device against opponents who are vastly inferior to Palpatine in speed.
I definitely think Maul can approach this level of speed. He's sprinted at about 70mph, dodged a 60mph freight train coming at him where even the best athletes would have been ran over, moved faster than recording equipment can see and moved faster than a droid could pick up. As for replicating the blitzing of an army, while dodging projectiles, Maul has also done this, twice, to quite a similar extent. Once when he speedblitzed 20 meters worth of Gungans while avoiding spears and bombs, and again when he speedblitzed multiple squads (8 each) of battle droids. He's also single handedly killed over 40 armed Black Sun enforcers coming from all directions, using just physical attacks. So I don't think Sidious really has him beat by too much, if I'm being honest.
All feats below:
Maul running five times faster than a human can travel.
But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Dodges a freight train coming at him at over 100km/h (or, over 60mph).
He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Moves so fast that recording equipment needs to be slowed down to see him.
When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.
Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul
Moves faster than a droid can see.
Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. He would of been deflecting dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.
Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.
End Game
Maul clearing through a 20 meter line's worth of Gungan soldiers, decapitating and slicing in half all of them, while dodging their spears and bombs.
Some of the Gungan riders saw him coming and took aim. Maul twisted his body, either evading flights of energy lances and spheres or fending them off with the lightsaber. Letting go of the STAP when he was still twenty meters from Ganne and the general, he called on the Force to send himself tearing through a score of mounted Gungans. It was clear that they had never seen anything like him. But then, who had? What Sith in the past thousand years had been allowed to wield a lightsaber in open battle? Was that in itself not enough to qualify him as atrue Sith?
The rubbery Gungans all but disintegrated at the touch of the twin blades Maul had hoped to reserve for the Jedi. Their billed heads flew in all directions. His slashes halved them down the middle or through the midsection, and they squawked as they died. Their nostrils flared and their eyes bulged from their heads, and the white sand beach grew puddled with their blood. Maul maneuvered closer to Ganne, cutting the legs out from under the Gungans’ mounts or impaling them on his lightsaber. He launched himself into the air when he was still five meters from the Boss and the general. The latter lost his head to one of the blades, and Ganne was knocked from his mount by Maul’s extended left hand.
End Game
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As for Savage, he's quite fast, but not as fast as Sidious. His role here in all honesty is to keep Sidious at bay while restricting his Force advantage, just like Maul is here to restrict him speedblitzing anyone with his comparable skill and speed. Boba is icing on the cake, here to prevent Sidious from gaining anything more than a momentary advantage.
Umm... where did it say Maul speedblitzed multiple squads? All it said is that he destroyed them, and it outright stated he deflected blaster bolts back at them, meaning they would have been able to respond because they fired blaster bolts at him. The one squad alone was able to respond, let alone the multiple squads. Maul certainly wasn't speedblitzing them if he had to deflect blaster fire.
Maul is quite fast a runner, but probably not on par with Sidious, who has kept pace with Plagueis:
In mad pursuit of their prey and all but taking flight, the two Sith, Master and apprentice for eleven years now, bounded across the grassy terrain, their short capes snapping behind them, vibroblades clenched in their hands and bare forearms flecked with gore; blood caked in the human's long hair and dried on the Muun's hairless brow. Twisting and swirling around them was a herd of agile, long-necked quadrupeds with brown-and-black fur; identical and moving as if possessed of a single mind, leaping at the same instant, reversing direction, cycloning gregariously over the short-napped savanna.
“This is not a chase,” Plagueis said as he ran, “this is a summoning. You need to get behind the eyes of your target and become the object of its desire. The same holds true when you summon the Force: you must make yourself desirable, fascinating, addictive, and whatever power you need will be at your command.”
Blended into the herd, the animal Sidious had fixed his sight on would have been indistinguishable to normal beings. But Sidious had the animal in his mind and was now looking through its eyes, one with it. Alongside him suddenly, the creature seemed to intuit its end and tipped its head to one side to expose its muscular neck. The moment the vibroblade stuck, the creature’s eyes rolled back and grew opaque; hot blood spurted but quickly ceased to flow—the Force departing, and Sidious drawing its power deep into himself.
Source: Darth Plagueis
And Plagueis is definitely faster than Maul, especially considering this feat:
The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.
Source: Darth Plagueis
Maul has generated residual fans and ran/leapt imperceptibly fast, but nothing has lent credence to the idea that he would be able to run and fight so fast that he would be able to leave simultaneous blurring trails throughout an entire forest understory such that it would appear that lightning was flashing through the forest. This is even more impressive considering Plagueis accomplished this in a forest, which is definitely not a very friendly environment for running. Sidious kept pace with Plagueis a full thirteen years after this event, so Plagueis may have been even faster, and the feat also showed that Sidious could keep pace with Plagueis on neutral ground, not in a forest where Plagueis was already capable of generating countless blurring trails to form the impression of lightning, and then, that iteration of Sidious is also only 54BBY, so 52BBY Sidious may have improved slightly in terms of speed.
I wouldn't say he collectively outweighs my team. I'd say he collectively rivals my teams speed, given that Maul is fast enough himself to avoid being blitzed, and Savage and Boba's presence itself offsets Sidious' ability to fully focus his speed on any one person.
Just a side point: I think people need to stop bringing up Silver in debates. It's happened to me twice in the space of only about 12 hours. Yes, Silver is arguably the best and most knowledgeable Star Wars debater on the site, but the title says "ILS vs Nova", not "ILS vs Nova featuring Silver's ghost". His subjective statements are not infalliable, and while he is reputable, using his opinions to bolster your own argument defeats the point of you debating against me, and isn't really fair in general. Besides, his opinion doesn't have any really weight over what we specifically are discussing. I think people should just avoid mentioning his posts altogether in order to be independent as a debater themselves.
Dooku did that by virtue of being more skilled, not solely because of being faster. It's never been stated anywhere that Savage is embarrassed in such ways because he is slow - that is a myth created by people who think he's a lumbering brute.
Savage will be able to land a Force blast at some point in the fight IMO, and Maul will uphold his responsibility of keeping Sidious at bay with his unarmed mastery (which Sidious hasn't really shown an ability to compensate for IIRC). Boba is there for general harassment, and could maybe provide my team one win out of ten just by catching Sidious off-guard or even blowing him up.
Maul and Savage may be able to prevent themselves from being blitzed, but Boba cannot until you show me feats. And yes, his speed, whether it be combat or running speed, collectively outweighs yours.
It does to a comparative extent, but I did say you could disagree with Silver at your will. But then, we can just ignore this, then.
Is Sidious not more skilled than Savage as well? Your assessment of Tyranus dodging blows from Savage also neglects that Sidious is vastly superior in terms of speed and agility, and especially in running speed, than Dooku. I think Sidious should employ a lot of running speed as he tends to do, so his fighting style should be Juyo. We see that in fights where Sidious isn't environmentally obstructed, that he enjoys employing extensive running speed, such as his duel with the Jedi Masters in RotS, and he should do the same here as well. Boba probably can't even react or see Sidious, whilst Savage can't keep up. The only person on your team who could legitimately keep up with Sidious is Maul, and he cannot prevent Boba from being speedblitzed.
So I do stand by the idea that Savage would never be able to land a single hit on Sidious, especially if a vastly slower opponent who doesn't employ very much running speed (which would be nil by comparison to Sidious' anyways) could dodge plenty of blows from Sidious. Sidious is more skilled than Savage as well, so he should be able to avoid Savage hitting him.
Sidious' speed and agility, and his own mastery of martial arts will prevent Maul from utilizing his martial capacity, in my opinion. Moreover, his vastly greater speed comparative to Savage as well as his martial mastery could allow him to accomplish something like this:
Credit to Silver2467
In Death Sentence, Judd, who is just not on Sidious' level in anything, was able to knock down Savage. Sidious would have more ease in doing so, even if he doesn't replicate the exact same feat.
I don't think those are big factors, since really this fight is about who is going to have their defences opened up for a one-hit-kill first.
Their defence against his power is their offence. Sidious has not shown the ability to abuse his Force power (which is only rivalling Savage's if we avoid speculation) against such a high caliber group of opponents. Maul and Savage will already be dividing his efforts in two - now Boba is niggling in the back of his mind because one blaster or laser to the back could spell his end. I think you're overrating Sidious' ability to dominate them individually because they are attacking him collectively with more versatility than a swiss army knife.
Sheer speed won't help because speed blitzing is prevented. Sheer power expenditure is prevented because he is rivaled in this regard. But my numbers and versatility advantage, is not compensated for in your argument, because Sidious has not shown the ability to cope with such a group of opponents.
Sidious has never been shown to confront anybody in large groups, except for on Hypori and the world with the Kursid warriors, but those were battles were he specifically disused his offensive powers. The closest example we can get otherwise is his assassination of Pax Teem and everybody else in his home, and in that, Sidious was very liberal in his application of powers. His violence was unquestionable, and he certainly unleashed his powers, but to a more effortless extent for obvious reasons. Against the team, I see no reason for him to be fully unleashing his powers.
Speedblitzing is not prevented at all. You still haven't given me sufficient speed feats on Boba Fett's behalf to suggest he could react to Sidious, or perceive him, especially given how Sidious is unlikely to be at any one place for long - he employs considerable running speed and I don't see Boba Fett reacting on time, nor do I see Savage being able to keep up in any manner. The only person on your team who can legitimately keep up with Sidious is Maul, and even then his combat and running speeds are still inferior - not by too much, but by an extent I deem considerable enough for Sidious to be able to speedblitz Boba without much interference. Sidious would logically pick Boba to fall from the onset, and Savage is certainly not protecting Boba from a speedblitz. It depends on the initial positioning of your team, as well, but to be honest, I'm not sure if Maul would even focus on protecting Boba as per his own morals. Now, he does note tactical value, so that might cause him to defend Fett, but even then, I'm not sure he could. In at least three or four of the rounds, Sidious should wreck Boba from the onset with his speed.
On a side note, I'd like to see a few of Savage's running speed feats, which, to my knowledge, he lacks, so, like somebody like Vader or Dooku, Savage is not one to employ considerable running speed, and it would be nil by comparison to Sidious'. So there's that - in terms of running speed, the one person on your team who can keep up is Maul, and he is still not as fast a runner as Sidious (he should be comparably close, but not too close).
Regarding sheer power expenditure, his vastly greater speed than Savage might enable him to unleash his powers unobstructed, which would certainly separate your team and leave any individual member prone to attack. I'm looking at Boba - especially, who has no Force-based defenses against Palpatine's TK and who cannot react to a speedblitz. Moreover, if Savage happens to be the one who is felled first, which may be the case, then your team would lose to sheer power expenditure on Sidious' part because Boba is absolutely indefensible and Maul is nowhere near Sidious in the Force. Savage is your team's only hope, but he focuses more on offensive powers than defensive skills, so his ability to protect your team from getting internally or potentially externally attacked via TK can be contested, especially since he is too slow to respond to Sidious's telekinetic assaults at somebody closer to Palpatine than himself - in other words, Savage would always have to be close to Sidious to repel telekinetic attacks, or else he would be too slow to prevent them from hitting his teammates, and this is not considering the fact that Sidious may opt to utilize internal telekinetic attacks, which probably won't be for a majority but should be noted. I still hold that Sidious is more powerful than Savage as well, but if both Maul and Savage unleash their telekinetic powers at once...maybe they would completely nullify Sidious' powers, but then, the chances of this happening are limited since Maul hardly ever employs his offensive powers, and Savage doesn't always apply them in the first place. Since this is TPM Maul, not TCW Maul, he would have no synergy at all with Savage. Unobstructed power expenditure on Sidious' part would prove extremely dangerous to your team.
With respects to sheer number - that may be Sidious' downfall, but not necessarily. Again, I would like to point out that two members of your team are defenseless (one which is completely indefensible, the other which is pretty much incapable of defending himself) against Palpatine's telekinetics, and I have not seen Savage utilize his powers defensively, not to mention his significantly slower speed, both factors of which will hinder his ability to stop Sidious from simply expending his power to overwhelm the other two members of your team on top of his already sometimes limited focus. If surrounding Sidious is your team's motive, then I must say I doubt this would happen either. Sidious' sheer running speed can come in handy here - with both Savage and Fett on your team having nil running speed by comparison, and the other person, Maul, not being quite as fast, and this could prove advantageous for Sidious. He might not be running circles around everybody, especially not Maul, but he would against Fett and potentially Savage, at least to some extent, in my opinion.
Well you obviously don't think he's a non-factor considering you suggested I use him in the PM :p.
His value in this fight is worth quite a lot considering how he held Vader at bay, for a sufficient amount of time he could allow Maul and Savage to come back into the fight after being separated. And even then, that's an implausible scenario to put Boba in because your argument is completely reliant on Sidious abusing speed and power - attributes he is rivaled in.
However, my team is not rivaled in versatility or a sheer numbers advantage, and even you have agreed that numbers as a lone factor can grant my team a win out of ten. I think you are beginning to enter the realm of reaching when you say Boba is non-factor and Sidious is winning 8/10 without strain.
Yo' move, son.
8/10 might be a stretch, but it wouldn't be without strain. However, it should be about 6-7/10 in my favor, on my side.
The problem with your team's supposed counters to Sidious' is that they are only counters in theory, with a quick glance at attributes, but they aren't counters in practicality. Savage has unleashed his powers before, but never as a defending force against other telekinetic blasts, not to mention his occasional lack of focus and vastly inferior speed which makes me doubt that he would be an efficient counter to Sidious' abuse of power, and if Sidious elected for internal telekinetic assaults like Crush, Grip and Choke, then Savage would be powerless to stop those. He would not be able to stop Sidious' unleashing of his powers every time, and possibly not even for a majority.
Your reference to Maul holding Vader at bay is countered above, but to reiterate, using a far inferior opponent, especially in speed and agility, in a fight where Boba was protected by a plot device that changed his opponent's manner of fighting such that it would not be anything resembling Palpatine's at all, is a very desperate argument to resort to. Sidious is vastly faster and more agile than Vader on top of being more violent and more powerful, as well as infinitely faster in running speed, which he employs more in the first place. Boba's lack of a plot device here, which means Sidious will directly attack Boba and utilize his powers often, only weakens your argument. He is not performing even remotely as well here. That argument alludes to desperation, because it required extremely favorable circumstances for Boba, PIS-weakening circumstances for his enemy (neglecting his senses, not using Choke from the onset, not directly attacking at all, overestimating his circumstances), and the enemy being inherently inferior to Sidious by a significant extent, and none of those elements are present here.
I still stand by at least 6/10 for Sidious, and potentially 7/10.
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