CaV: Hulk (SG) vs Thor (AB) - VOTING OPEN

While Thor might have an initial, however large or small one would decide to let it be, chance at matching the Hulk in physicals, this chance will eventually and undoubtedly be dwarfed to an almost nonexistant amount due to the Hulk's ability of increase in strength. Thor is a natural warrior and would, to his possible disadvantage, begin with a brawl. In a classic battle, the fight would go like this:

In the all-famous battle we've all seen way back in the classic days, like Defenders #10 old, this is how the battle would go. Undeniably though, each has gained multiple more feats from which to drawn on. Below I'll post some of their earliest fights that I can find, with each showing off what they can best do:

Hulk v Thor: Journey Into Mystery #112 - Album

In this here fight Thor shows one of the other main reasons I believe he loses this fight-- he believes too much in his own strength and his pride will get the better of him. As a natural warrior, he will try to solve things with his fists instead of his hammer. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that Thor no longer loses his powers after being away from his hammer, so that might work in his favor. Unfortunately for Thor, there's a lot to draw upon when it comes to a battle between two of the biggest titans in comics.

Hulk v Thor: Thor #385 - Album

Another amazing battle took place in which, again, Thor gave away his hammer. Sure, this time it's due to a hostage situation, but the following event just goes to show that Hulk does have the potential to fight smart. This particular area is full of civilians, and Hulk could yet again take advantage of the situation. Hulk, against Thor, has shown multiple times to fight intelligently, and he knows that Thor is more powerful than him, which is why he draws the fight to a question Mjolnir. On multiple occasions, Hulk has shown this ability against Thor. Moving on:

Hulk v Thor: Savage Hulk #1 - Album

A battle that could unfortunately not continue, Savage Hulk #1 shows Hulk's wits in battle against Thor. By launching a rock at him and appearing behind he, gains what could be seen as a momentary upper hand, and darn you Iron Man this was just heating up!

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In Hulk: Let The Battle Begin #1 we yet again see Thor's unwillingness to use his true power against the Hulk and Hulk's intelligence in battle against the Thunder God. He grabs Thor's arm and uses said arm to beat Thor bloody with Mjolnir still in Thor's hand.

Just ask She-Hulk, Ares, and Thing:

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Now obviously striking power is going to be one of the most important things to this fight, arguably the most important, and I'll get into that in a second. But I also want everyone to remember that in the above scans, the Green Scar was holding back.

Now personally, when it comes to these types of battles, posting durability and striking feats is next to useless. We already know they can damage each other. However, for the sake of this one, I'm going to lay out all my cards: Thor will be incredibly hard-pressed to lay down the permanent hurt on Hulk. Even with Thor's shaking planets with Gorr feats where he's never hit anything harder and felt immense pain which he ignored. So, let's get on with it:

In Tales to Astonish #89 the Stranger hurls "enough force to change a planet's orbit" at Hulk. He resists these for a while, and in the last panel on the first page we see that he was actually fighting against it. So this doubles as both a strength and durability feat.

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In Incredible Hulk #112, Hulk resists for a prolonged period of time the blasts of Galaxy Master, a genuine planet buster. In fact, he resists them for so long that Galaxy Master resorts to different methods to attempt to take down the Hulk. Now, to my knowledge Thor has probably one or two feats on this level. Can't wait to see them. In the meantime, let's look at some Post-Core Breach instances.

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In Incredible Hulk #611, Skaar punches Hulk with a "trillion tons of shifting lithosphere." To put this into perspective, take a look at the map:

This is similar to the event that ended the dinosaurs. It's also not really that high. The two pre-Core Breach were easily more impressive. However, let's continue. In Incredible Hulks #616 Hulk...

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walks through that. That energy was shattering the planet they were on. All he had was a bloody nose. From Earth, that looked like this:

Now, I've layed down all the cards on my table. Durability is definitely a topic I don't want to be touching later on. Thor will struggle to harm the Hulk, given he has few feats of actual planetary destruction. Hulk has multiple resisting them.

This is a section where I'm probably going be saving a few cards till the end. However, let's continue rolling this. I'm going to start off with yet again, a Hulk feat we see in just about every single one of his openers from Incredible Hulk #3.

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In this instance, Hulk created 5.6 earthquakes on the Richter scale which was felt around the world whilst punching some gamma boars at the center of the Earth.

In Avengers vs X-Men #11, Hulk pounds Emma Frost through an entire island into the ocean.

In Hulk Smash Avengers #4, Grey Hulk sends Wonder Man flying. IIRC, in the classic days, Wonder Man was definitely near Thor level. Given that Iron Man is in the Silver Centurion armor, Hulk just did that to a nigh-Thor level foe. Now I will openly admit that for Grey Hulk, that's a bit high-end, but given that I'm allowed feats all the way up to WWH, this feat definitely belongs here.

No, I didn't do this CaV because "I want votes herp derp."

Brony came to me for the debate, so if you want to pull some BS out of you ducks, call him out.

the rules of this debate shown in the OP regarding the combatants demeanor are as follows:

Both combatants are fully aware of each other, fighting seriously and willing to kill but not bloodlusted

this is an extremely important detail that isnt used in most debates. Thor in this cav is not bloodlusted but he is fighting seriously and willing to kill, meaning he is totally focused on taking his opponent down, no fooling around. this mind-set makes a world of difference in debate, let me give you an example from Thor vol. 2 issue 28#:

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the wrecking crew have been enemies of thor for a long while and have taken him on several times, in fact the wrecker was able to fight him pretty well; however in this issue we see just how pathetic they really are compared to thor. After the wrecking crew (who were amped further) mortally wounded hogun thor was furious and promptly stomped them, almost killing them with ease and threatening to kill them if hogun dies.

the above shows the massive difference between a serious thor and thor normally. thor holds back a great deal most of the time even to the point where enemies far inferior to him can put up a good fight, however when serious thor immediately stomps them with absolutely no problems.

with the above shown it is plain to see that your argument based on history instead of feats is very flawed. lets get into it.

Well well, this is a new section isn't it? The truth is, these guys have fought numerous times. I probably can't tell you every single time, but holy ducks there's a ton. I'm going to take the liberty of copy/paste-ing this section I wrote during the BOTW: Hulk vs Thor.

Except... This was a bloody year ago. I didn't know as much as I know now, and one of the things I didn't know was that Hulk already surpassed Thor in some physical areas, hence some of my more outlandish claims "Thor might have an initial... advantage" or something along those lines. Am I missing fights? Probably. I'm not going to back through decades of comic history to find all of them, though.

Now that we've gotten the chunk of it out of the way: Thor and Hulk haven't really had a genuine fight post-Sakaar Core Breach. I haven't kept up much in the last few years (or at all), but I don't recall any genuine one-on-ones. Let me be brief though, these guys have tied a lot but haven't done anything after the Breach. Given that one of them had a great amp and the other one remained relatively the same, there's really only one logical conclusion.

The single most important thing to take away from the history of their fights that I took out from the BOTW section is that all of that was done by Savage Hulk.

i commend you on your finding all those different fights, however when one understands the context it is very clear none of the fights you listed are valid in this debate because:

• Thor was holding back and not serious in any of the fights you have shown. in every single fight he was bragging or trying to engage in a test of honor and strength, not serious and trying to take down hulk by any means necessary.
• Classic hulk by feats is not on thor's level, thus clearly thor was holding back a great deal.

Ive already provided evidence for my first statement though i am happy to provide ample amounts more if you disagree, however i think my second statement is what you will vehemently disagree with the most so let me focus on that.

In classic times Hulk's power level was extremely inconsistent, he had some insane outliers, however overall he was nowhere near the power level fans see him as today. In classic times hulk was rivals with the thing and namor and one of his most powerful enemies was the abomination, the same abomination Thor casually oneshot with his fist in Thor #178:

So, it is very clear we cant go only by their character history, we need to use consistent feats. both Thor and hulk have a nigh-limitless supply of feats to draw from in debate, lets not be lazy and try to shove them all under the rug using a few invalid and out of context showings.

i would also argue, and can easily show, that in most of the fights you listed thor had the upper hand as well, but i wont right now as they arent valid anyways and it would be a waste of time.

The last three fights I linked showed that Hulk is actually smart in his combat, even in his Savage state. Of course for this fight he has access to World War Hulk feats, meaning Thor is dealing with someone who exceeds him in physicals but is also incredibly smart and tactical. Could Thor be tricked into dropping Mjolnir again? Absolutely. We saw him throw a rock at Thor in the fourth fight only to end up behind him. Definitely something that can happen again. One of the instances we see this battle strategy play out is in the latter half of World War Hulk: X-Men. Against Wolverine, he gave him brain damage. Against Juggernaut, the unstoppable incarnate, he presses him down then throws him away. That's just one instance.

Firstly and very importantly, i must strongly disagree with your erroneous claim that hulk will somehow trick thor into dropping mjolnir. in the fights you listed Thor only dropped mjolnir for two reasons, (a) because he wished to prove his metal in a test of pure strength and (b) when hulk had a hostage and would only free her if thor tossed mjolnir away. When serious Thor does not drop mjolnir, he uses it and his other powers to take down his opponents no matter what.

Secondly, while i do agree WWH is a clever opponent i dont see how it will help much at all. Hulk is a brute, its not like he has any esoteric abilities or martial arts skills he can cleverly use to get a leg up, his strategy is to smash until his opponent is KOed or dead. Thor doesnt have any weakness for hulk to take advantage of so hulk's cleverness is pretty much useless.

ON THE OTHER HAND, thor when serious is very clever in how he fights and has the combination of abilities to make things difficult and gain a leg up on his opponents. Lets look at a couple of instances from Rick Remenders avengers that showcase not only thor's intelligence but also his ferocity:

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in Uncanny Avengers 11# Thor fights the death seed empowered sentry. Sentry punches thor with enough power to shake the planet, yet thor is still able to throw mjolnir as a distraction, hit sentry with lightning and then bull rush while his enemy is stunned.

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in Uncanny Avengers 16# a serious Thor fights Uriel, one of the apocalypse twins. Thor easily overpowers him then opens a portal to a realm of flame and burns uriel to ash.

the above are displays of skill, intelligence and versatility that will actually make a difference in this fight. Hulk might be clever but he is still just a brawler, thor has a powerful and varied power-set that he can use to gain an edge over his opponents. Thor has the intelligence and the means to beat hulk with his wit as well as his raw power.

Counters

Now personally, when it comes to these types of battles, posting durability and striking feats is next to useless. We already know they can damage each other. However, for the sake of this one, I'm going to lay out all my cards: Thor will be incredibly hard-pressed to lay down the permanent hurt on Hulk. Even with Thor's shaking planets with Gorr feats where he's never hit anything harder and felt immense pain which he ignored.

I strongly disagree. Characters with planetary durability are hurt by attacks less than planetary level all the time. If you had said thor will have some trouble KOing hulk i would agree (though in the end i think he would) however saying thor will have trouble "hurting" hulk is ludicrous. Thor hits harder than most all characters on his tier, he will have no problem causing hulk a lot of pain and suffering.

In Tales to Astonish #89 the Stranger hurls "enough force to change a planet's orbit" at Hulk. He resists these for a while, and in the last panel on the first page we see that he was actually fighting against it. So this doubles as both a strength and durability feat.

very good feat but i must point out a few things:

• enough force to move a planet is not the same as planet busting. its still an impressive planetary durability feat, however thor is a planet buster thus his striking power exceeds this feat.
• Classic hulk was rivals with the likes of namor, thing and was even overpowered and matched by abomination, all characters thor has oneshot. not trying to lowball, i agree that the hulk in this debate is definitely a planetary level character superior to thor physically, however im very skeptical of these old time feats.

In Incredible Hulk #112, Hulk resists for a prolonged period of time the blasts of Galaxy Master, a genuine planet buster. In fact, he resists them for so long that Galaxy Master resorts to different methods to attempt to take down the Hulk. Now, to my knowledge Thor has probably one or two feats on this level. Can't wait to see them. In the meantime, let's look at some Post-Core Breach instances.

this comic is from 1969, hulk was not consistently anywhere near planet busting levels of durability in classic times, his rogues gallery, rivals and feats show as much. while hulk might be able to withstand that level of power now he couldnt consistently in classic times and thus i cant take this feat all that seriously. please show some modern feats of hulk tanking planetary level power, not outliers from the silver age.

In Incredible Hulk #611, Skaar punches Hulk with a "trillion tons of shifting lithosphere." To put this into perspective, take a look at the map:

This is similar to the event that ended the dinosaurs. It's also not really that high.

Good modern feat, very impressive showing, however Thor has feats surpassing it as i will show in the arguments and you already know.

However, let's continue. In Incredible Hulks #616 Hulk... walks through that. That energy was shattering the planet they were on. All he had was a bloody nose. From Earth, that looked like this:

I will need some clarification on this feat. first you say it was shattering the planet then in the scan you show from earths view the blast does not look anywhere near planet busting. how powerful actually was this blast? for now i will assume its impressive, but not quite planetary in power.

Now, I've layed down all the cards on my table. Durability is definitely a topic I don't want to be touching later on. Thor will struggle to harm the Hulk, given he has few feats of actual planetary destruction. Hulk has multiple resisting them.

actually most of the scans you showed are inferior to the damage that thor can dish out physically and with energy. the only scan where hulk tanked planet busting blasts was against the galaxy master and considering the context and hulk's power level at the time it seems like total PIS. other than that not a single one of those scans showed planet busting power (unless there is context in that incredible hulks 616# scan i didnt see), so your statement that "hulk has multiple feats of resisting planetary destruction" as of right now, just isnt true if we are talking consistently. Thor will have no problem harming hulk, koing will be an issue yes but harming will be easy.

Argument

Hulk is incredibly durable and WWH is even more so, however he is not invulnerable. WWH has been harmed by characters who don't hit as hard as thor consistently.

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now of course none of these characters actually stood a chance, WWH stomped them easily and could have killed them, however all of these characters were able to draw blood with their attacks and they dont hit even close to as hard as thor.

Another showing that should be remembered in this debate is Hulk vs Juggernaut in WWH: x-men 3#. After a depowered juggernaut was humiliated by hulk cyttorak gave him a pep talk and re-empowered him back to his normal levels of power. the hulk and juggy then faced off outside the x-mansion:

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this battle showed juggy and WWH as equals, in fact juggy landed more strikes and smashed hulk into the ground. WWH's only choice was to use juggs unstoppable momentum to BFR him from the fight, otherwise hulk's rampage may have ended right there on the steps of xaviers mansion.

The above show that WWH can still be hurt by beings who dont hit nearly as hard as thor, and when i say not nearly i mean not even close. Thor is the pinnacle of his tier in striking power when wielding mjolnir and is also one of the heaviest hitters with his fists:

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In the above scans Thor effortlessly KO's several high-tier characters in one punch and also punch an amped viking through the earth and out the other side. These feats show that even with just his fists Thor has the power to hurt hulk, however Thor still holds the most powerful weapon in the nine realms as well:

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in the first scan Thor easily oneshots Ulik who at the time was massively amped by the magic and science of diablo and the high evolutionary and in the second scan Thor oneshot kills angrir, a massively amped version of the thing who in classic times rivaled hulk and has casually no sold nukes.

Now the above feats of fist and hammer show Thor's striking is enough to put a world of hurt on the hulk, however i have yet to show Thor's best feats of striking that prove, when serious, he has the power to KO the jade giant:

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in the above scans we see Thor truly unleash his power and destroy planets, in the second scan the narration even says that thor's blows were shattering worlds. This level of striking power is most definitely enough to hurt the hulk and i believe, eventually KO him.

Now you stated in your post supreme:

Thor will struggle to harm the Hulk, given he has few feats of actual planetary destruction.

and you are right. Thor only has two feats of planetary to planetary+ destruction, however this does not mean these are the only times thor has struck with planetary force. collateral damage is not the only way to judge feats, there are also feats of striking against other characters durability and Thor has feats of that nature that show he wields planetary power consistently:

Thor in one powerful strike was able to destroy Phoenix Force Emma's diamond form and at this time Emma had half of the phoenix force. Even characters with only 1/5 of the phoenix were herald level, so thor oneshotting emma with 1/2 of the PF is insanely impressive and easily a planetary level feat if not higher. Thor did end up losing as the phoenix force wouldnt let her die, but this feat shows just how much power thor wields when seriously fighting.

i am saving thor's lightning/energy projection for the next post, however as it stands right now Thor has the power to fight, harm and KO hulk with his physical prowess and the crushing might of mjolnir alone. i know you said you didnt want to debate further about hulk's durability, but you are going to need to.

Counters

In this instance, Hulk created 5.6 earthquakes on the Richter scale which was felt around the world whilst punching some gamma boars at the center of the Earth.

In Avengers vs X-Men #11, Hulk pounds Emma Frost through an entire island into the ocean.

Not much to say here, these feats are good and i agree thor will feel and be hurt by Hulk's attacks, however it will take hulk a long time to down thor and by then it will be too late as i will show in the arguments below.

World War Hulk dropped mid-tiers faster than ever before, and it was obvious: Just ask She-Hulk, Ares, and Thing:

very nice scans, a good way to showcase a characters power is to show how easily they can deal with opponents of lesser tiers. However, in none of those scans did hulk actually oneshot KO or kill those characters, something thor has been capable of doing with fist or hammer since forever. Thor takes attacks consistently from beings on and above his own level such as Beta ray bill and silver surfer, which quite frankly hulk isnt reaching.

In Hulk Smash Avengers #4, Grey Hulk sends Wonder Man flying. IIRC, in the classic days, Wonder Man was definitely near Thor level. Given that Iron Man is in the Silver Centurion armor, Hulk just did that to a nigh-Thor level foe. Now I will openly admit that for Grey Hulk, that's a bit high-end, but given that I'm allowed feats all the way up to WWH, this feat definitely belongs here.

Woah, woah, woah! lets pump the brakes for just a second their man! What proof do you have that wonderman is anywhere near thor level? as i showed in the intro, thor holds back a great deal most of the time even letting opponents nearly beat him , that in no way means they are actually on his level, in fact most of the time thor oneshots them or stomps them later on. you cant just claim WM is nigh thor level without providing feats for him.

this section was pretty light on feats and none of them are close to planetary level strikes so while i agree thor will take some damage none of these actually show hulk can down thor. i'll need to see some more feats of striking from hulk, preferably during the WWH/green scar eras.

Arguments

WWH is a powerhouse and a heavy hitter most definitely, however Thor's blunt force durability is extremely impressive and is definitely enough to survive and withstand a long drawn out slugfest with the hulk. In the last section of this debate i showed you WWH vs juggernaut stalemating one another in WWH: x-men 3#. coincidentally thor has slugged it out with juggy a couple times and easily withstood his blows:

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in this fight Thor was cripplingly weakened by a seizure, yet he was still able to take the full fury of the juggernaut. the juggernaut threw the surrounding environment at thor, punched him and even used mjolnir's momentum to smash into thor with extreme force, yet the weakened thunder god did not yield. this was also classic juggernaut, much more powerful than modern versions of juggernaut and impervious to all harm.

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once again thor fights the juggernaut. using his intelligence thor sends mjolnir flying to create a barrier around the battlefield that cuts juggy off from his forcefield but leaves him at full power physically, so basically in the same state as when he fought WWH. Thor not only tanks juggs attacks, he actually overpowers him, ragdolling him around and is about to KO him until mjolnir returns back to his hand before the sixty minutes are up and he turns back into donald blake.

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Yet again thor faces off with the juggernaut, however this is the massively amped 8th day juggernaut whose strength, in thor's words, "had swelled 100 fold". Despite the juggernauts massive amp thor is still able to tank his attacks and keep fighting, though in the end he is eventually on the losing side. the above showings make it very clear that Thor has the durability to withstand WWH's strikes and keep on fighting for prolonged periods of time. I also have plenty more scans and showings for Thor's durability and pain tolerance that prove it will be extremely hard for hulk to put him down, however i'll save them for next post when you show off more of hulk's striking power.

Hulk definitely has the means of harming Thor, especially with WWH feats.

harm? yes of course, both hulk and thor have the means to harm each other. However when it comes to koing thor i dont see hulk doing that easily at all.