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Let the bloodbath begin!
@ghostravage: I'll start simple; but not too simple.
As you are aware, Teth-Adam has incredible levels of strength and power. Possessing The Strength of Amon, he has been capable of going toe-to-toe with the likes of Superman and Captain Marvel. The misconception is that he's equal to Captain Marvel but does not hold back, which is wrong. He's empowered by a different set of gods (Egyptian) and is stronger and more durable than Captain Marvel. Every time he fights, it is asserted that his strength is enough for entire teams to call on, teams which include the likes of Power Girl, Alan Scott, Jay Garrick, Captain Marvel and others to restrain him. During the The Black Reign series of the early 2000's, they tried to stop an enraged Black Adam yet were overwhelmed by his physical strength alone. And yes, they did utilize their power-set yet still failed:
Physically over-powers the JSA, fights Hourman while Alan Scott makes the attempt of stopping him with his constructs:
Breaks his constructs while knocking out Hourman and subsequently proceeds to dismantle the JSA:
Uses his speed to blind-side Power Girl, then braces an incoming blitz from Jay Garrick (who is seen incoming in the first scan) and takes him out:
All of this was done with strength alone, and yet none of them were capable of restraining or taking him down. Whereas other powerhouses may use a wide array of powers (which Adam has done), he was capable of performing the feat with strength alone. By Captain Marvel's own admission, Adam's physical strength is incredible:
JSA #27:
And in his fight with Superman in Action Comics #831 (to which Superman admitted he didn't hold back against Adam), he admits that Adam's punches feel like bombs and that he hits harder than Captain Marvel (which supports the notion of Adam being stronger than Captain Marvel):
It should be noted that one of the reasons Superman didn't hold back supposedly, is because of the writer John Byrne, and he characterized Superman like this...
In JSA #6, he was capable of fighting Jay Garrick at super-speeds, to which everyone in the vicinity was 'frozen': To which both Adam and Jay are vibrating limbs at super-speeds.
@frozen: Alright mate. Let's get down to this.
There isn't much new to say about Hulk these days. He's the epitome of an ideal brick and his powerset makes him able to hang around Superman-esque characters like Teth.
Let's start with Avengers #3 when Hulk harmed Marvel NOW! Hyperion whose durability is exceedingly high...
It took him 1 punch to harm someone who was in the middle of the incursion, say, 2 Marvel Earth's collapsing into each other as well as seemingly surviving without harm the destruction of an entire universe to later be pulled out to Earth-616 in Avengers #4...
No harm at all, what makes this feat even more impressive let alone for Hulk harming him is the fact Hyperion got stronger on Earth because the Troposphere on Earth filters the sun light less than his home planet, ergo, he absorbs more...
But enough about this... By this feat alone Hulk should be more than capable of harming Black Adam. Now, about Hulk's durability, this is where he shines bright like a diamond. Indestructible Hulk is by far Hulk's most durable and toughest incarnation so far, shrugging off with a smile Thanos's punches in Infinity #6... It worths to note Thanos's simple pimp slaps were enough to almost 1 hit KO him in the past...
So Hulk took a punch of that magnitude from Thanos, stood up with a smile on his face and kept charging against him, i feel that's enough to suggest he has the durability off the bat to tank hits from Black Adam. He wasn't even harmed. What makes Hulk's mindset awesome in this scenario is the fact Hulk wont hold back at all, the moment he feels Adam is strong he will definitely not pulling anything off his punches.
Now that Hulk has been introduced, let's address some of your scans...
Physically over-powers the JSA, fights Hourman while Alan Scott makes the attempt of stopping him with his
While the feat might seem impressive, the very obvious fact of Hourman not being anywhere the level of a powerhouse subtracts a lot off the feat, moreover, while Alan Scott is INDEED a powerhouse, he suffers from a very high degree of inconsistency given he tends to lower his own potential most of times and the only moments he manages to exploit his best is against Mordru or when he's flat out bloodlusted which in your instance, there was no indicative he was. This factor becomes even more important when the very existence of Alan Scott is described by Mr. Terrific in JSA #26...
In simple words, i could easily state his constructs were incredibly weak due to Alan making his powers fluctuate. In fact, this assumption becomes even stronger than yours when the obvious hole in the instance is noted... A supposedly angered Adam is fighting Street Levelers like Mr. Terrific and Wildcat, hell, he actually looks struggling while fighting all of them, not a very good feat if you ask me and doesn't show actual evidence Adam could take solidly on powerhouses like Superman and Hulk.
Uses his speed to blind-side Power Girl, then braces an incoming blitz from Jay Garrick (who is seen incoming in the first scan) and takes him out:
How did you get to the conclusion Power Girl was blind sided by Adam, he just seems to be pushing her into the ground, moreover, there's no indicative how strong was that push and going by common indicatives like collateral damage and whatnot, the feat becomes petty, but i'll let it pass and assume it was a "strong" push.
The Jay Garrick fight... I have my quarrels here. For one, Jay Garrick was seriously blitzing Adam until he threw his arm seemingly in a way for it to work within a wide range of effect rather than pin pointing Garrick. That said, one of your scans strengthens my point even more... The last scan with Jay is not "that" good... Black Adam isn't landing a single punch on Jay Garrick and he's getting seriously blitzed... Actually, forwardly in the issue Jay is explicitly shown to blitz Adam, making him recur, to the already mentioned AoE attack...
In other words, Black Adam doesn't handle speed that good... Im even willing to say he's a brawler more often than not, perfect for Hulk.
Lastly, the fact that Hawkman managed to speak full sentences to Adam before Adam reached him makes me think he wasn't going that fast at all. The same can be said about his grip, how strong would that grip be if Hawkman isn't anywhere near Superman-esque characters as far as strength goes. Anyway, the difference between Hulk and Adam in that indole is the fact Hulk was stated on panel to hold back less the stronger the foe is, not the case with Adam specially here since you stated was an angered one.
And in his fight with Superman in Action Comics #831 (to which Superman admitted he didn't hold back against Adam), he admits that Adam's punches feel like bombs and that he hits harder than Captain Marvel (which supports the notion of Adam being stronger than Captain Marvel):
This is a double edge sword mate... While Superman said he wasn't holding back, he also states a very vague and ambiguous compliment. Bombs... What kind of bombs? What size? What reference do we have of how strong a "bomb" can be? There's absolutely no way to measure that feat whereas Hulk on the other hand has been stated and shown on panel to punch as hard a nuclear strikes in one of his weakest incarnations as shown in Incredible Hulk #410...
So what do we have here... We have an ambiguous and vague statement on your behalf whereas i have a solid and provable way to show Hulk's striking force. If anything Black Adam would be dealing with nuke+ damage output off the bat, actually, even greater given Hulk's augmented strength after Pak's run as explained in World War Hulk: Gamma Files... An augmentation he didn't have in the 90s.
Now... To deliver Adam's "bombs" potential to harm Hulk, he's been taking huge "bombs" going from grenades to island sized nukes on average without much harm. In between Aaron's Incredible Hulk #6 and #7 this is visible when he took a nuke right in the face and he didn't even feel it...
So "bombs" are not enough to damage Hulk. For the sake of associating Hulk's mindset in this debate with Indestructible Hulk's feats... He actually took another island sized "bomb" in Indestructible Hulk Annual #1...
And guess what... not only Hulk can punch like a nuke, tank nuke-like attacks but he can also clap like a nuke! As shown in Tales to Astonish #67...
Using the exact same tactic Adam resorted to deal with Jay Garrick's speed, i could fairly easy claim the same for Hulk. Given Adam's obvious speed advantage, the best way to deal with it is with Thunderclaps... Easy to exploit, totally in-character for Hulk to use them on speedsters and highly effective.
So bombs... bombs everywhere, the only difference is i can take "huge bombs" and deliver "huge bombs". :)
To summarize...
You turn mate.
@ghostravage: Good response, now it's my turn. I have to address Hyperion's exceedingly high durability, I do not deny that Hulk isn't powerful but that clearly seems to be major inconsistency on Hyperion's part. He survives the collision of two (not one, but two) universes.
So honestly; where does that put Marvel NOW Hyperion?
People make the argument that Odin is a solid galaxy buster, the latest incarnation of Hyperion survived two colliding universes. That is very comfortably above the higher tier Skyfathers or even Galactus. So how does Hyperion, a being who goes from surviving two colliding universes (which I might add, without a single scratch or cut) to getting blood spurted by Hulk's punch? Because any being that can survive two colliding universes would be able to stomp 10 Hulk's for the matter, beat the likes of Odin and should seemingly have power above Galactus. Either Hulk hurting him is PIS or that's not really Hyperion's consistent level to come.
In regards to Thanos, Hulk certainly gotten stronger but so has Adam and that's in every physical category. Prior to the millennium, he was still powerful but not as powerful --- the latter years of the post-crisis chronology saw his emerging feats, which are of high quality. Take this feat for instance, Black Adam is actually weakened and it's directly confirmed on-panel (forced to share power, which Adam does not appreciate). However, he still powers through a team consisting of powerhouses (JSA members and overpowers them):
And what happens next...
Whenever Adam fights teams, he actually overpowers them. Even if you are to make the case that ''characters weren't using their abilities in WW3'' --- they certainly did during Black Reign, Johns made sure that each character utilized their abilities (as evidenced on-panel) and he overwhelmed them. I would argue that it plays into Adam's favour, physically he can fight off several major powerhouses and beat down Captain Marvel.
In simple words, i could easily state his constructs were incredibly weak due to Alan making his powers fluctuate. In fact, this assumption becomes even stronger than yours when the obvious hole in the instance is noted... A supposedly angered Adam is fighting Street Levelers like Mr. Terrific and Wildcat, hell, he actually looks struggling while fighting all of them, not a very good feat if you ask me and doesn't show actual evidence Adam could take solidly on powerhouses like Superman and Hulk.
I've read the issue. It doesn't suggest what you're implying, he's explaining that Alan's power is based on pure willpower, he doesn't need a ring as he once did, this was because of the years he had used it for, and that the Starheart powers him --- just because Adam breaks his constructs, they were ''weak'' rather than Adam was genuinely strong? (which has been asserted several times during the JSA run). Power Girl has seemingly punched soldiers angrily, does that mean her punches are incredibly weak? Yet she seemingly punches powerhouses angrily and can hurt them? In the context of the Black Reign series, Black Adam was threatening with old world justice, essentially; war. They were all prepared to stop Adam.
Alan can often school other Green Lanterns (Kyle):
And coming back to Black Reign, this was the predicament Adam was in before he dismantled the JSA:
Now make no mistake, Alan at his best (Starheart) can solo DC Earth if he wanted to and can hold apart reality altering rifts, however clearly he does not always fight at such levels, at his standard level he is a solid powerhouse (seen in JSA: Vol 3, he fares well against the team-buster version of Gog, who has outmuscled KC Superman), Alan at standard level has on several occasions struggled with a bloodlusted Black Adam. I do not see how taking on JSA isn't a good feat because it 'looked like he struggled', he's also dealing with a speedster, a kryptonian and perhaps one of the most powerful Green Lanterns.
Adam is fighting Street Levelers like Mr. Terrific and Wildcat
Coming back to this, aside from the instances of other powerhouses fighting or briefly holding off street-levelers or even beings lower than that, it's not often we'll see characters do this:
How did you get to the conclusion Power Girl was blind sided by Adam, he just seems to be pushing her into the ground, moreover, there's no indicative how strong was that push and going by common indicatives like collateral damage and whatnot, the feat becomes petty, but i'll let it pass and assume it was a "strong" push.
There is an indication. A clear one too --- he knocks her out, whether it was a strong push or not, I'd say he blind-sided her because he took her out fast and hard. So it's really not petty, considering the outcome of the feat.
The Jay Garrick fight... I have my quarrels here. For one, Jay Garrick was seriously blitzing Adam until he threw his arm seemingly in a way for it to work within a wide range of effect rather than pin pointing Garrick. That said, one of your scans strengthens my point even more... The last scan with Jay is not "that" good... Black Adam isn't landing a single punch on Jay Garrick and he's getting seriously blitzed... Actually, forwardly in the issue Jay is explicitly shown to blitz Adam, making him recur, to the already mentioned AoE attack...
Right, firstly I'd like to point out that Jay was clearly struggling. ''Have to keep it up...try to wear...him down...'' is a clear inference that he was struggling, that's why he also asserts ''Have a dose of the speed-force'', he was moving the fight alone whereas Adam only lands one punch, however the fight is impressive and I posted it for a reason --- Adam and Jay were fighting at super-speeds, vibrating their limbs at super-speeds and everyone else was perceived to be frozen while they were fighting. Adam landed his thunderclap in superspeed. Though Jay did succeed in hurting Adam, Adam was not frozen like everyone else, he actually had the time to generate a thunderclap in superspeed. Jay is a speedster, and his perceptions are incredibly fast. In fact, here's a scan which details his perceptions of the world. This is rather standard for speedsters, in fact this is probably the lowest a speedster goes:
In other words, Black Adam doesn't handle speed that good... Im even willing to say he's a brawler more often than not, perfect for Hulk.
I will say that brawling works into Adam's favour, surprisingly --- that's how he's been characterized. Superman went toe-to-toe with him and got hurt (to which Superman seriously had to work), the JSA have dog-piled on him yet have better wins via plot and seriously outsmarting him. I'll post the full fight with Superman, contrary to your claim, this fight shows he can definitely go toe-to-toe with Superman.
Action Comics #831:
Lastly, the fact that Hawkman managed to speak full sentences to Adam before Adam reached him makes me think he wasn't going that fast at all. The same can be said about his grip, how strong would that grip be if Hawkman isn't anywhere near Superman-esque characters as far as strength goes. Anyway, the difference between Hulk and Adam in that indole is the fact Hulk was stated on panel to hold back less the stronger the foe is, not the case with Adam specially here since you stated was an angered one.
Where was Hawkman able to speak full sentences to him? The instance from JSA #6 (to which Adam and Jay fight at superspeeds) or Black Reign (to which he dismantles of the JSA)? I assume you mean the latter. Hawkman only started to speak sentences after he had blindsided Power Girl and backhanded Jay.
Adam talks to Hawkman first, clearly he's going to expect a reply. I do not see what that suggests. And Adam is angered, yes but he is actually holding back to an extent. He had been part of the JSA for atleast 30 issues prior to that encounter, the scans of him against Power Girl actually assert on-panel he specifically took her out brutally because he did not like her personality (lack of respect). Adam clearly is a Superman level character, I don't see the discrepancies with that, he's been written like that for years (back into the Pre-Crisis days, when he fought Superman and Captain Marvel at the same time) and into the Post-Crisis years, to which he's even fought Superman (posted the scans, they were shown to be of a similar level). The next panel against Hawkman shows this:
This is a double edge sword mate... While Superman said he wasn't holding back, he also states a very vague and ambiguous compliment. Bombs... What kind of bombs? What size? What reference do we have of how strong a "bomb" can be? There's absolutely no way to measure that feat whereas Hulk on the other hand has been stated and shown on panel to punch as hard a nuclear strikes in one of his weakest incarnations as shown in Incredible Hulk #410...So what do we have here... We have an ambiguous and vague statement on your behalf whereas i have a solid and provable way to show Hulk's striking force. If anything Black Adam would be dealing with nuke+ damage output off the bat, actually, even greater given Hulk's augmented strength after Pak's run as explained in World War Hulk: Gamma Files... An augmentation he didn't have in the 90s.
The type of bomb does not really matter. That is because a bomb wouldn't hurt Superman --- by 2005 (the time the fight was written), neither would a nuke for the matter. It was by Superman's own admission that his punches hurt (to the extent where he admits he hits harder than Captain Marvel, his equal). Coming back to the bomb, bombs would not be of any harm to Superman.
And on another occasion, Superman has shrugged off a multitude of nuclear warheads. The feat is measurable --- by his own admission (not just a vague statement, but an admission of his own abilities and then contrasting his opponents punches to Captain Marvel, a character that has matched Superman on a multitude of occasions to state he hits harder them Marvel) is not vague in the slightest. There have to be certain generalisations when it comes to powerhouses, if a new character comes along and matches an established character (Superman for example), he can take that established character's punches and thus the new character's abilities can be gauged to an extent that is relevant. The writer of Superman and Adam's fight is using the term 'bomb' as a simile to express Adam's power, as a figure of speech. That's also why Superman states he hits harder than Captain Marvel and that Adam is visibly seen hurting Superman and knocking him down with his punches.
And since we're on the subject of ''bombs', if you bring up Hulk taking bombs means Adam's ''bombs'' cannot hurt Hulk (a figure of speech used in that story), then I bring up that Superman took an Island destroying nuke, Superman was also weakened by kryptonite poisoning and fighting multiple enemies for long periods of times:
The scans are below:
And years later when they came to fight, Adam rocked him:
So, as we see, Adam has already hurt characters who have taken a multitude of nukes, and when even angrier, can take on a multitude of powerhouses.
There is also, supposedly a time when Superman tanked a million exploding nukes (or a blast equivalent to it), not too sure on that though.
Using the exact same tactic Adam resorted to deal with Jay Garrick's speed, i could fairly easy claim the same for Hulk. Given Adam's obvious speed advantage, the best way to deal with it is with Thunderclaps... Easy to exploit, totally in-character for Hulk to use them on speedsters and highly effective.
The thing with Adam thunderclapping Jay is that he did it in superspeed (when everyone else was frozen), he didn't just do it at any given time, he did so when Jay was circling him, and as we know, Jay is a notable speedster who can perceive in Nanoseconds. A severley weakened Black Adam, thunderclapped a kryptonian (who seemingly wasn't even holding back, neither was she weakened). Would Hulk honestly be capable of fighting at superspeeds with Jay Garrick? The writer went as far as stating on-panel how fast they fought in comparison to the surroundings, the notion of 'time being frozen' has been displayed with many powerhouses (Superman for example).
Your turn mate.
This debate is already epic beyond epicness!
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