CaV: Hit-Girl vs. Sam Fisher

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#1 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

Hit-Girl

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Sam Fisher

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Rules

  • In character

Hit-Girl's equipment::

  1. M16A1 (Machine Gun)
  2. 2 clips for reloading
  3. 2 Glock 23's with Silencers
  4. 2 clips for reloading.
  5. 1 Strobe attachment
  6. Double Sided Detachable Sword
  7. 1 Nun-Chuck
  8. 1 Rope Knife
  9. 2 butterfly knives
  10. An assortment of throwing stars and knives
  11. Small grappling hook
  12. Brass knuckles
  13. Smoke bombs
  14. Night vision goggles

Sam Fisher's equipment::

  1. M416 (Machine gun)
  2. Five-Seven (Handgun)
  3. Karambit (small knife)
  4. Mark V Tactical Operations Suit

Win via kill or knock out

Location

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Hit-Girl (Purple)

Sam Fisher (Green)

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#2 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks good, you can start.

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#3 Edited by reaverlation (25941 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for this especially with Fisher in this!Good luck to both y'all!

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#4 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman He goes nothing.

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Who is Sam Fisher?

Sam Fisher made his first appearance in the Splinter Cell: Stealth Action Redefined video game. It introduces Sam into the Splinter Cell program, which is a division within a top secret sub-branch of the NSA known as Third Echelon. The idea of the Splinter Cell program was to turn field operatives into USAs ultimate weapon to counter terrorism. These agents operate in areas that are deemed too dangerous, even for special force squads.

Sam Fisher, as a former Navy SEAL operative, has received extensive training in advanced tactical warfare, weapons handling, hand-to-hand, combat and espionage. Sam was in military school when we still believed in the Tooth Fairy.

Without further ado, lets get to some feats!

Strength

Sam Fisher is realistically peak human. Not comic peak human who can bench 800 pounds for training, but realistic enough to the point of succeeding training offered by special forces and then some.

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In this instance (7:37), Sam Fisher breaks through ice and you can see how thick the ice actually is when Sam emerges from the hole. Granted Sam used the knife to weaken it, but its noteworthy to say the least.

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Here we have Sam Fisher interrogating Dmitri Gramkos for information about his daughter. As shown, Sam easily busted a door down sending Dmitri flying into some tiles that broke on impact. Sam's strikes shatter porcelain (which is what the toilets and sinks are made of). I would have thought Sam's physical strength with the backing of Navy training would be enough, but these feats should put him above that level.

Pain Tolerance

Might as well get this out of the way. I know Hit-Girl is rather tolerant of pain herself, in any case I'm not trying to best it. However, Sam is extremely tolerant of pain, and should be considering field agents get captured and interrogated. Here is a scene from Splinter Cell: Conviction, where previously Sam allowed himself to get captured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJgKYYcDJe0

Just to screen shot the in-game statements to save space. Grim (red head) says "He's been trained to resist interrogation".

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Funny how Reed brings up a point of "I'm authorizing you to use whatever persuasions you need. Chemical or otherwise.". Sam has resisted VX nerve agent in Blacklist for a prolonged amount of time. At least until Briggs gave him a shot of atropine.

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Sam resists the effects for over 10 minutes, possibly more considering he was knocked unconscious.

I found an interesting 7m documentary on VX nerve agent too. As seen it is a very potent toxin which makes the feat all the more powerful.

Agility

Sam is very agile. He practices in modern day parkour. With feats like these he should reach point A to point B in this fight fairly fluidly.

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He's also been able to scale cliffs without the aid of a safety harness.

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The Fight

This is how I see it panning out. As shown, Sam is fully capable of navigating from point A to point B (I'll get into stealth a little later when I have something to counter) fairly easily. Navigating over and under any obstacles thrown his way. Unless Hit-Girl is immortal, it only takes a bullet to the head to secure the victory. I'm not going to lie, seeing a little girl may test Sam's judgement, but after receiving a few shots or knife wounds, he's not going to hold back. He has slapped Grim (refer to the YouTube link) almost taking her out (he was holding back). So Sam is fairly loose on morals when fighting someone who means to kill.

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#5 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by reaverlation (25941 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Nice!Sam Fisher Rocks! (Or just Ubisoft in general lol)

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#8 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: That was a nice read man, I'll have mine up in a little bit.

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#9 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by reaverlation (25941 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: The Assassins,Fisher,Vaas,etc.Love Ubisoft ^_^

Bioware can compete with Ubisoft in characters though

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#11 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by tomlikesfries (5341 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: I'll be keeping an eye on this. Thanks for tagging me.

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#13 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Training:

Mindy doesn't have the formal military training like Sam does, that's an honest fact. But she has been trained by her dad both comic book collector and top police officer in New York City since birth and they took training very seriously. They still travelled the world learning different ways to kill.

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  • Scan 1 they were living in southeast asia.
  • Scans 2 and 3, she gets shot 11 times.
  • Scan 4, Says she eats lambs heart for breakfast, Chops for lunch, and a big plate of liver for dinner every night, Shows her kicking a bag real hard.
  • Scans 5, 6, 7 and 8, that she knows gun knowledge and action movie knowledge, can use things in the room as weapons, that she can easily break bones, and that she can maneuver around a bar real easy in a fight.
  • Scans 9 and 10, shows that she can make smoke bombs
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  • Scan 1 and 2, Says she has a meat smoothie and does 100 chins up in the morning, and that afternoons were filled with knife throwing, fingerprint analysis, or CIA torture techniques, showing of her learning escapology from Big Daddy
  • Scan 3, has rohypnol to put parents to sleep, hacks into Marcus' police files.
  • Scan 4, says she can blind a man with her thumbs, build a bomb with the contents of a kitchen cabinet, and skin a wolf with her bare hands, says she drowned a guy
  • Scan 5, daddy taught her how to cripple criminal empires cash flow
  • Scan 6, says her and big daddy filled a bedtime story book with different ways to kill people
  • Scan 7 ,Says she has over 100 kills under her belt, and this is Pre-Kick-Ass 2

Strength/Striking power:

Sam Fisher is realistically peak human. Not comic peak human who can bench 800 pounds for training, but realistic enough to the point of succeeding training offered by special forces and then some. In this instance (7:37), Sam Fisher breaks through ice and you can see how thick the ice actually is when Sam emerges from the hole. Granted Sam used the knife to weaken it, but its noteworthy to say the least.

This is very even IMHO, him breaking that thick of ice from underwater is a very nice feat.

Here we have Sam Fisher interrogating Dmitri Gramkos for information about his daughter. As shown, Sam easily busted a door down sending Dmitri flying into some tiles that broke on impact. Sam's strikes shatter porcelain (which is what the toilets and sinks are made of). I would have thought Sam's physical strength with the backing of Navy training would be enough, but these feats should put him above that level.

Also some good feats, I could almost call this a stalemate based on these, but I have a few for Hit-Girl that I think could top these.

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  1. Kicks a guy across a room.
  2. Easily breaks legs.
  3. Kicks a guy so hard he goes flying into a car and breaks through a windshield.

Durability:

Might as well get this out of the way. I know Hit-Girl is rather tolerant of pain herself, in any case I'm not trying to best it. However, Sam is extremely tolerant of pain, and should be considering field agents get captured and interrogated.

I have no doubt that Sam can take some pain, but Hit-Girl tanks damage like a champ. She's been shot 8 times, been unphased by kicks that send her 15+ feet, and takes an explosion that sends her flying into a statue without injury:

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Just to screenshot the in-game statements to save space. Grim (red head) says "He's been trained to resist interrogation".

I'll be honest Mindy has no feats to say she couldn't be interrogated. But she has been trained to interrogate. Not trying to lowball, but the fourth scan even states that they say not to get messy this time. Hit-Girl's interrogation is messy, from ripping off fingernails to making a guy eat is own dick.

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Agility:

Sam is very agile. He practices in modern day parkour. With feats like these he should reach point A to point B in this fight fairly fluidly.

Nice, Hit-Girl has shown comparable to better agility though. Gives Frank a difficult time even tagging her, runs up walls, jumps rooftops, and can jump down buildings.

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The Fight:

Unless Hit-Girl is immortal, it only takes a bullet to the head to secure the victory.

Turns out she is immortal, jk. But the same can be said for your character. And its harder to land a headshot on Mindy than you'd think:

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I'm not going to lie, seeing a little girl may test Sam's judgement, but after receiving a few shots or knife wounds, he's not going to hold back.

I would assume that it would throw him through a bit of a loop, but I'll try to do this CaV without resorting to the "He's gonna hold back" stuff.

I will be honest though from this starting distance Mindy is at a disadvantage, she has great accuracy feats up close, but she technically has no sniping feats whatsoever.

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#14 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by reaverlation (25941 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: Sweet opener bro.I'll hold back my Fisher favoritism as much as I can :).

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#16 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman Impressive counter. Lets see what I can muster up.

Training and Skill

You did a very good job of displaying Hit-Girl's training and skill. Just note, my covering of this section isn't really so much a counter, just an acknowledgement of Sam Fisher's training and the skill he has displayed in game. The following video is a 13m documentary on Navy SEAL training, what Sam was put through.

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Sam Fisher succeeded Navy SEAL training and was specially selected by Irving Lambert (director of Third Echelon) to be the first recruited Splinter Cell agent. Lets get into a little more of Sam's skill here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI192EugbsA <- This is a link to Sam's refresher course. Now the game is out dated, so the fluidity of his movements are a little iffy. Basically Sam is required to navigate through a course, sneak up on agents and interrogate them, use excessive force, utilize his environment, and other stealth objectives.

Sam is a fantastic hand-to-hand and weapons combatant. Mostly utilizing Krav Maga which was well portrayed in Splinter Cell: Conviction.

As seen in my opener, Sam utilizes Krav Maga against Dmitri. As Dmitri draws, Sam quickly reacts and easily disarms him. In the following video shows Sam going at it with Andre Kobin. Kobin swings a flag pole at Sam (unexpectedly) and Sam reacts and easily turns the tide.

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Lets go back to Sam and Kobin's first encounter. Sam drops Kobin in a with a throat grab, yet Kobin survives. If you remember back with Dmitri, Sam kills him with that same throat grab. This suggests that Sam has great control and knowledge base on how to kill (not like he didn't already).

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There are plenty of these feats going around, but to avoid all the video spamming, I'll post one more just to highlight his skill furthermore. In the next video, Sam fights Sadiq displaying good grappling technique to counter Sadiq.

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Sam counters Sadiq's hold and slices at his tendons with the karambit, neutralizing Sadiq in the process. That should do for now. To summarize this section: Sam's physicality is above and beyond the optimum requirement for the Navy SEALs program. To add to his physicality, he's rocking pretty impressive skill and has displayed it against Sadiq who is another military veteran.

Scan 4, Says she eats lambs heart for breakfast, Chops for lunch, and a big plate of liver for dinner every night.

All eatable last I checked, lol.

Scan 1 and 2, Says she has a meat smoothie and does 100 chins up in the morning, and that afternoons were filled with knife throwing, fingerprint analysis, or CIA torture techniques, showing of her learning escapology from Big Daddy.

Very impressive for a little girl to do 100 chin ups. However, Navy SEALs has its soldiers killing there entire body all day long.

Scan 7 ,Says she has over 100 kills under her belt, and this is Pre-Kick-Ass 2

She's ruthless, no doubt. But Sam is in his 40s operating at peak performance. I think its safe to say he's got a lot more kills under his belt.

The Fight

You've given some solid points for Mindy's durability, and agility. My main point with agility was to confirm that Sam can overcome pretty much any obstacle in his way to get to where Mindy is.

Not trying to lowball, but the fourth scan even states that they say not to get messy this time.

This could mean anything. To me, they may have messed up with the previous person pretty bad. But if the use of chemical substances isn't messy, I don't know what is.

Turns out she is immortal, jk. But the same can be said for your character. And its harder to land a headshot on Mindy than you'd think.

I know she's a bullet timer :P

However its a little harder to dodge a bullet that she isn't expecting.

Stealth

This is where Sam shines. He is fully capable of sneaking up on top CIA operatives and has even stealthed through a quiet room containing mics and broken glass on the floor. This was a refresher course he did and impressed Irving Lambert.

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He is a rather sneaky cat. As a stealth based game, I'm not going to put up the numerous videos of Sam infiltrating high security places, but just to name a few: Sam has infiltrated The White House (guarded by other Splinter Cell agents), he has escaped Guantanamo Bay, he has infiltrated Third Echelon HQ, navigating around lasers, and he has infiltrated CIA HQ. Just to name a few. If you want those videos, I can provide.

Moreover, Sam is a fairly accurate shooter with a high rate of fire. The following video is a flashback of three burglars trying to mess with Sam and his daughter's home. Sam disarms one and kills him and pops a bullet in the other two before they even jump to react. Skip to 6:28

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Overall, I believe Sam's combined physicality and skill makes him a scary combatant to kill in a hand to hand fight. Sam has displayed a great knowledge base on how to kill and has legitimate showings against other trained killers. Sam is a very stealthy operative also, its pretty much an absolute requirement in his field of work.

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#19 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman

Cool, I have something that goes along with this. Remember when Frank grabs Mindy by the neck and she smashes that vase into his head? Or when Mother Russia, who can snap grown men's necks, had a lot more trouble trying to break Mindy's? I think she can take a throat grab pretty well.

The throat grab thing was just to showcase Sam's martial skill. But I'm not entirely sure Frank or Mother Russia were trying to crush Hit-Girl's wind pipe.

Also when Hit-Girl is training Dave she tries training him like Big-Daddy trained her, but he's a wimp and she took it easy on him.

Nice and all, but in the film Dave still got owned by thugs afterwards. Suggesting that Mindy doesn't really know how to train someone. Dave may have not adapted to her style of training, but if Mindy was skilled enough she would have worked with Dave's problems.

Kills a bad girl (1), Bedtime story book full of different ways to kill (2), Sledgehammers a guys face inside out, he was begging for mercy (3), shows her skills in killing tons of guys in absurd manners (4-5), Being badass (6), Kills guys with "tranquilizers" (7-9), Had to be moved to a more secure part of jail for the other inmates safety, keep in mind she's already in a real high security prison. Somehow kills the guy in the next room over. , Shows that she runs the prison, and somehow she steals the guys cigarettes. She says she can come and go as she pleases. Runs the prison through fear, enough for the inmates to kill for her, bring her hello kitty cards, whiskey, and weekly comics (10-13).

To be honest, most of those kills don't portray skill. She dismembers a lot of people in a lot of graphical ways, but it doesn't take much skill to kill someone anyway. I can settle for both combatants containing the knowledge base on how to kill.

Now before you say its cause of prep, this is Ryker's island, the biggest prison in NYC which is literally its own island, 11,000 + inmates with 1500+ guards, no way did she knock out gas them all, there was some stealth definitely involved (7-10).

Probably the best feat in the entire paragraph. She is pretty stealthy and shouldn't be underestimated, but I still think Sam beats her here. Sam has escaped a prison before. Getting in was part of the plan but getting out is the challenge considering Guantanamo Bay is a military prison.

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The next video showcases the White House infiltration. The new director, Tom Reed, had a ton of soldiers and other Splinter Cell agents guarding the area. Agents that had Sam's level of tech.

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One more noteworthy feat is disappearing from a group of soldiers. Granted Grim gave him the window of opportunity and doesn't seem like a good feat from Sam's PoV, but from the soldier's perspective, Sam disappears before the backup generators kick in.

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I think Mindy's got him beat here. She takes out 3 guys with headshots before they can react, takes out 4 guys with headshot, headshot, heart-shot, and headshot instantly, not to mention this was the first time she ever killed anyone, she was 5, grabs a knife and stabs 2 guys before they can react, easily disarms Frank.

She's good, but I don't think Sam is entirely beat here. In the first scan or scene, she's shooting with a silenced weapon. In the video I put up, Sam uses a much louder weapon but pops to thugs in the head before they can react. Heck they barely even jump from the loud unexpected noise. Both are impressive. Here is another feat for Sam. In the following instance, Sam moves faster than Reed can react and pop the trained agents on the left flank. Sam did this after being shot by Grim (red head).

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Mindy also has another advantage, if Sam is wearing his Night Vision when they meet, and Hit-Girl uses her strobe

Except, Sam isn't those untrained gangbangers. It'll work, but Big Daddy basically yelled out to her to switch to kryptonite! Lol. Sure only used it once.

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#20 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Sam has resisted VX nerve agent in Blacklist for a prolonged amount of time. At least until Briggs gave him a shot of atropine. Sam resists the effects for over 10 minutes, possibly more considering he was knocked unconscious. I found an interesting 7m documentary on VX nerve agent too. As seen it is a very potent toxin which makes the feat all the more powerful.

Thanks to Kick-Ass 3 issue 7 that just came out I have a fairly good feat to counter this with. Chris and some guys are breaking Mindy out of prison so they can kill her in front of a bunch of other mob bosses (long story). She ends up getting drug with Midazolam (highly effective, but low toxicity used to put people to sleep for surgery), She ends up getting a huge dose of 10 milligrams at 1 time, normally for kids the initial dose is .025–.05 milligrams, even adults can only handle 2 – 2.5 milligrams. While it ends up that Red Mist actually saves her, but he gets shot causing him to drive the van off a bridge. Mindy while being drugged, in a straight jacket, and underwater, she was able to free herself and save Chris.

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Also a very nice feat of the effectiveness of Big-Daddy's training.

The throat grab thing was just to showcase Sam's martial skill. But I'm not entirely sure Frank or Mother Russia were trying to crush Hit-Girl's windpipe.

Well Frank was choking her, he threw her up against a wall by her neck and Mother Russia had capable of snapping spines so she was probably putting pressure on the windpipe as well.

Nice and all, but in the film Dave still got owned by thugs afterwards. Suggesting that Mindy doesn't really know how to train someone. Dave may have not adapted to her style of training, but if Mindy was skilled enough she would have worked with Dave's problems.

Dont mistake Hit-Girl's sympathy for Dave for her to have a lack of skill. It should be said that Mindy training Dave in the comic was better and more drawn out, and it proves a point because comic Dave is a lot better than movie Dave. Mindy's training was legit, she had been doing crazy stuff like this since the age of 4.

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To be honest, most of those kills don't portray skill. She dismembers a lot of people in a lot of graphical ways, but it doesn't take much skill to kill someone anyway. I can settle for both combatants containing the knowledge base on how to kill.

Ah, but I left out her best feat, look where she is aiming....all the major blood veins.

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Neck, chest, low belly, and inner legs.

Probably the best feat in the entire paragraph. She is pretty stealthy and shouldn't be underestimated, but I still think Sam beats her here. Sam has escaped a prison before. Getting in was part of the plan but getting out is the challenge considering Guantanamo Bay is a military prison.

It undoubtedly her best feat, Sam does have the stealth edge, I must admit. But is Guantanamo really that secure? I mean Harold and Kumar easily escaped.

She's good, but I don't think Sam is entirely beat here. In the first scan or scene, she's shooting with a silenced weapon. In the video I put up, Sam uses a much louder weapon but pops to thugs in the head before they can react. Heck they barely even jump from the loud unexpected noise. Both are impressive. Here is another feat for Sam. In the following instance, Sam moves faster than Reed can react and pop the trained agents on the left flank. Sam did this after being shot by Grim (red head).

Yeah she is shooting with a silencer, but she also has obstructed view cause the gun is in a guys mouth and she kills 3 instead of 2, they are farther spread out and the last guy doesn't even have time to reach the alarm.

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And all that video shows is Sam dieing.....

Except, Sam isn't those untrained gangbangers. It'll work, but Big Daddy basically yelled out to her to switch to kryptonite! Lol. Sure only used it once.

Yeah Damian told her what to do, but anybody who has basic information on nightvision knows its sensitive to light. She is older and smarter now as well, it's very possible she could use it. And like the comics have said before she has been trained to prepare for every possibility:

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  • Nice feats as she keeps track of a bunch of prisons and everything.

I know that stealth is a factor in battles and that Sam definitely has that edge, but there's a lot of other things to consider as well. Like all that edges Mindy holds: speed (1), accuracy (2), agility (3), striking power (4), durability (6), deadlier weapons (6), her ability to improvise (7) and that she knows exactly where to land a lethal strike (8 and 9).

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To close I will show you hard it truly is to put her down, she tried to break out of prison but failed.

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She punched out 3 dogs, hospitalized 11 guards, completely totaled the entire south wing, took 2 slugs to the thigh, took a big fall from the roof, broke 2 guards legs and burned a mans face with pepper spray. Also those are highly secure prisoners in a high security prison that are scared crapless of her.

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#21 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so I've been away for like a month. Glad you've agreed to continue this and I hope you're ready for my come back! Just so people know and don't get confused, I'm not exactly returning to the Vine and its complicated.

Thanks to Kick-Ass 3 issue 7 that just came out I have a fairly good feat to counter this with. Chris and some guys are breaking Mindy out of prison so they can kill her in front of a bunch of other mob bosses (long story). She ends up getting drug with Midazolam (highly effective, but low toxicity used to put people to sleep for surgery), She ends up getting a huge dose of 10 milligrams at 1 time, normally for kids the initial dose is .025–.05 milligrams, even adults can only handle 2 – 2.5 milligrams. While it ends up that Red Mist actually saves her, but he gets shot causing him to drive the van off a bridge. Mindy while being drugged, in a straight jacket, and underwater, she was able to free herself and save Chris.

I don't think its as impressive as Sam Fisher's VX feat, but it is certainly notable. The reason I brought it up was to show that Sam has the will to function well under extreme pain. He's literally forcing his body to the point of negating internal symptoms that should have taken effect seconds after his exposure. Instead, he lasts several minutes and gets knocked out for an unknown amount of time (should be furthermore noted as remarkable considering he has no conscious control over the toxin) before Briggs comes to shoot him up with Atropine.

She took 10 milligrams of a sedative. It only takes 30 micrograms of VX exposure to kill. Actually, being in a straight jacket and underwater makes her feat a little better!

Well Frank was choking her, he threw her up against a wall by her neck and Mother Russia had capable of snapping spines so she was probably putting pressure on the windpipe as well.

Possibly. However the comparison with Dmitri getting a crushed windpipe and Kobin just getting downed from Sam crushing his windpipe shows good control over whether he wants his enemy to live or die. I'm not entirely convinced Mindy can survive a serious throat crush from a man who rips apart large chunks of ice as shown in my first post.

Dont mistake Hit-Girl's sympathy for Dave for her to have a lack of skill. It should be said that Mindy training Dave in the comic was better and more drawn out, and it proves a point because comic Dave is a lot better than movie Dave. Mindy's training was legit, she had been doing crazy stuff like this since the age of 4.

Fair enough. I can live with this.

It undoubtedly her best feat, Sam does have the stealth edge, I must admit. But is Guantanamo really that secure? I mean Harold and Kumar easily escaped.

I laughed. Though I'm sure you aren't using that as a lowball :P

And all that video shows is Sam dieing.....

Sorry, Sam dying is obviously non-canon (as there is another game after) heh. Hell, I didn't even know you could avoid the interactive cinematic. The following video shows the actual scene. However, I'm still unsure of who gets to kill Reed. Doesn't matter, Sam was still capable of reacting faster than Reed and shoot the agents on the left before they could react to the situation while wounded from a gunshot. I'd put money on a trained agent having better instincts and reflexes than the henchmen Mindy shot in that sequence.

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I guess we'll leave it up to the voters to decide which feat is more impressive since I still think Sam's feat is still more impressive.

Yeah Damian told her what to do, but anybody who has basic information on nightvision knows its sensitive to light. She is older and smarter now as well, it's very possible she could use it. And like the comics have said before she has been trained to prepare for every possibility.

Still doesn't escape the fact that she only used it once when she was fighting a group and was more used as a decoy.

Sam is also always prepared. Although, admittedly, I doubt he wouldn't plan for a little girl, and I doubt she would plan for NSA's finest. But I actually like the scans you posted. I'd post videos, but there are hundreds of pre-mission briefs in the games.

I know that stealth is a factor in battles and that Sam definitely has that edge, but there's a lot of other things to consider as well. Like all that edges Mindy holds: speed (1), accuracy (2), agility (3), striking power (4), durability (6), deadlier weapons (6), her ability to improvise (7) and that she knows exactly where to land a lethal strike (8 and 9).

Mindy holds better reflexes. She has dodged bullets. I'm not going to argue against that. However, from a guy who can move faster on the draw than any other agent can react and shoot with uncanny accuracy, even while physically degraded, I think a bullet will be much harder to dodge. She has dodged bullets, but that doesn't necessarily mean Sam wouldn't be capable of besting her in close quarters either considering Frank and Mother Russia have given her trouble. I forgot to show another fairly cool feat I guess. In the following video, Sam jumps on the pipe above and pops a drone with a gun with his non-dominate hand. Difficult position + left hand.

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Accuracy - I'm going to have to disagree or we're going to have to agree to disagree with each other. I still think Sam is more accurate. I've shown him owning three burgglers in his house before anyone flinches. He's been able to shoot the two agents on his left before they could react. He's been able to alternate with his hands and shoot from difficult positions.

Agility - Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Its hard to beat urban parkour and cliff climbing without a harness. Sam has better agility in the sense of navigating through urban terrain. Which, in this scenario edges Mindy, in my opinion.

Striking power - I'm not sure if that feat alone covers her superiority in striking power over Sam. If you refer to my first post in his fight with Dmitri, Sam shatters a wooden door and sends Dmitri flying and shatters a few more wall tiles. Then Sam is strong enough to shatter porcelain and as I've mentioned, that's the stuff bathroom sinks and toilets are commonly made of.

Durability - In the Iraq video, the last video of this post, Sam is knocked out by a mine explosion. Though it could be argued that his teammate tanked most of the force. I could see Mindy being a tad more durable but with Sam's VX pain tolerance showing... I'm a little iffy.

Deadlier weapons. Not sure how much deadlier you can get than a gun. Lets say she just has more weapons. I think they're equally deadly. The best weapon each have in this battle is a machine gun. Something Sam has more experience with.

I can't believe I didn't think of improvisation. There are so many feats of Sam improvising. Seriously, a field agent in the field is on his own and he has to improvise accordingly. The missions Sam does for Charlie prove how good Sam is with improvising. Technically, the first five waves is all that is needed to succeed the mission, but when you beat all 20 waves, Grim says something like "All hostiles are clear", like he was meant to stay there. Even still, I think defeating 5 waves of soldiers is impressive even with gameplay aside. He's great at improvising and surviving. The following video is 30+ minutes long, I don't expect you to watch it, its just proof.

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I was going to put up a video of Sam improvising in Iraq, but he just ends up picking up a gun and fighting. Though to be honest, there are four other Charlie missions which involves Sam in capturing and fighting waves of troops.

Lethality - I'd have to give a slight edge to Mindy, due to morals. In this type of situation, I just don't see Sam going all out on Mindy right off the bat. He's no animal. However, when he knows Mindy is actually good at killing and is the real deal, he's not holding back. I mean he was feening to kill Grim because she pissed him off lol.

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#27 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: Only for a little while, sadly. But its good to see no one ditched.

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@monsterstomp: the monststomper is back in the game. Shit about to get real:)

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Tag your it, tag me back when voting starts.

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#37 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: It's about time I finally get around to finishing this. Kick-Ass 3 has finally ended and we'll probably be seeing no more of Hit-Girl. The good thing is that the final issue gave her some amazing feats that she definitely needed to win this cav. Remember nearly seven months ago when I said this?

I will be honest though from this starting distance Mindy is at a disadvantage, she has great accuracy feats up close, but she technically has no sniping feats whatsoever.

Well, not anymore. In KA3 #8 She shoots down 22 heavily armed guys before they can react (while weakened). She even does this quietly and so quickly that she also sets up bombs at the same time. She can practically be called a speedster. :P

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As for proof of this whole "speedster" thing, hears this:

As a 5 year old Mindy was able to run 70+ mile per hour to make it to the bridge. The train is moving 70 mph, and she was able to get aboard, and run to the bridge, even after the train had past it.

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As an 11 year old Mindy was able to steal a cops gun during the confusion of a series of explosions, run and catch up with Dave's kidnappers in a speeding van. You can clearly see she is not on the van when it drives through the gate. Also she is somehow accurately landing head shots without even being able to see her targets.

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The Captain of the New York Police, Vic Gigante, a dirty cop, has her surrounded with over 20 officers and he says she's fast.

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I don't think its as impressive as Sam Fisher's VX feat, but it is certainly notable. The reason I brought it up was to show that Sam has the will to function well under extreme pain.

Hit-Girl can function under pain just as well, for instance I already showed her getting shot 8 times point blank and falling two stories:

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She gets right back to work and saves Kick-Ass from being killed, and takes down Johnny G's penthouse nearly singlehandedly.

Not only can she work through physical pain, she can put off her father's lies and death enough to "finish the job, mourn later".

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I'm not entirely convinced Mindy can survive a serious throat crush from a man who rips apart large chunks of ice as shown in my first post.

Why not? She shrugged off a throat crush from Frank D'Amico, who can demolish thick tables. And from Mother Russia who can punch and kick people 15 feet, ripoff car doors, and snap grown mens necks between her legs.

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I'd put money on a trained agent having better instincts and reflexes than the henchmen Mindy shot in that sequence.

Probably. But they aren't slow by any means. The thugs and supervillians in KA are shown to be able to handle NYPD easy enough. And you know who is NYPD? John McClane. Yeah.

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I respect you for not bring in the whole "Mindy only fights goons while Sam fights soldiers" argument too much. But to put it to rest anyway. Mindy has been stated to be able to solo a SWAT team.

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If you think this is less believable or whatever just because its a back cover...keep in mind she's has taken down over 120 armed guys in one night, terrorists in Paris, kidnappers in Rome, and an entire South American drug cartel with what seems only her swords.

Mindy holds better reflexes. She has dodged bullets. I'm not going to argue against that.

Both comic and movie Mindy are bullet timers:

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I think its fair to say that she has a substantial reaction time advantage over Sam. Especially considering her train catching feat.

However, from a guy who can move faster on the draw than any other agent can react and shoot with uncanny accuracy, even while physically degraded, I think a bullet will be much harder to dodge.

Hit-Girl solo'd 120+ guys while tired and weakened on Midazolam (she took a counter drug though). I am more worried that Sam can't dodge Mindy, then vice versa. Even if Mindy does get hit, which I think is doubtful, she is wearing plenty of kevlar to make up for it.

She has dodged bullets, but that doesn't necessarily mean Sam wouldn't be capable of besting her in close quarters either considering Frank and Mother Russia have given her trouble.

Her speed and agility made it difficult for Frank to tag her:

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And Mother Russia is a huge badass. She is trained in Silat, Judo, Jeet Kun do, and Krav Maga. She is ex KBG and ex Spetnez, she slaughtered the entire security team for the Russian Prime Minister while being drunk. And she even prepped for the fight with Hit-Girl by studying her moves, yet Mindy still beats her by using improvisation and her knowledge on the human body. Heck you could technically call this a speedblitz:

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I forgot to show another fairly cool feat I guess. In the following video, Sam jumps on the pipe above and pops a drone with a gun with his non-dominate hand. Difficult position + left hand.

Thats cool, but Mindy has done similar, she is capable of accurately and easily dual wielding handguns while in motion and there's smoke:

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Accuracy - I'm going to have to disagree or we're going to have to agree to disagree with each other. I still think Sam is more accurate. I've shown him owning three burgglers in his house before anyone flinches. He's been able to shoot the two agents on his left before they could react. He's been able to alternate with his hands and shoot from difficult positions.

How can Sam be more accurate and faster on the draw? Mindy has accurately shot threw smoke, a blinding strobe light, a guys mouth, and a vans roof. She's gunned down 3 guys before the last could react for the alarm, gunned down 4 guys before they could kill Big-Daddy, and gunned down 22 guys with headshots without making a sound.

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Here she saves Kick-Ass by shooting all the guys around him, notice how she was able to sneak into a crowded restaurant while dressed and carrying a machine gun:

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Agility - Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Its hard to beat urban parkour and cliff climbing without a harness. Sam has better agility in the sense of navigating through urban terrain. Which, in this scenario edges Mindy, in my opinion.

I am definitely disagreeing with you here. Agility happens to be Mindy's sh!t:

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Backflip kicks a guy through a table. (1) Cartwheels and accurately throwing knives immediately after. (2). Blocks Mother Russia's attack, scales her and puts her in a hold, that she couldn't bust out off, she resorted to biting. (3). Shows skill with rope knife, jumps on top of guy, and makes a guy shoot himself in the face. (4). Jumps down couple story rooftop and maneuvers through cops to steal a car. (5-6). Easily jumps rooftops. (7-9). Jumps over a chair thrown at her and blocks a bottle with her swords. (10).

And she has even been stated to be able to jump over moving cars in the description of Hit-Girl issue 2:

"Crashing through plate glass unscathed? Child's play. Jumping over moving cars? Whatevs. When Hit-Girl is your mentor, you'd better keep up. Kick-Ass is taking lessons in Advanced Bad Assery from Mindy McCready, and in return, he's teaching her to survive middle school. The question is, can she dispatch the Mean Girls without severing any arteries? Meanwhile, Red Mist gets serious about making his mark in the world of super crime."

Striking power - I'm not sure if that feat alone covers her superiority in striking power over Sam. If you refer to my first post in his fight with Dmitri, Sam shatters a wooden door and sends Dmitri flying and shatters a few more wall tiles. Then Sam is strong enough to shatter porcelain and as I've mentioned, that's the stuff bathroom sinks and toilets are commonly made of.

I'd still say Hit-Girl has him beat. Hit-Girl's striking is awesome, she can kick a man off a van and shatter the next car's windshield:

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Its not just high-end feats either, she casually breaks bones with most of her attacks:

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  1. Breaks a guys leg while barely paying attention to him.
  2. She easily breaks 2 guys legs in the same attack.
  3. Breaks 2 high security prison guards legs while weakened.

A simply angry pound from her fist is enough to bend a metal tray:

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And when she is actually trying, she shatters Vic Gigante's pelvis with one punch. I can't find the scan online, which is rather disappointing, but here are her words:

"Now I may be tired.....and I might be wounded. It really has been a long and bloody night......BALL DESTRUCTOR!(As she punches him in the balls)(Vic drops to the ground holding his now lack of balls)....but the day I can't out smart a retard like you is the day I really do hang up this mask.

"Oh man" - Gigante cries.

"That wasn't just your testicles I annihilated, by the way. That was your entire pelvis so there's no point in trying to crawl away." -Hit-Girl

Sam Fisher does not want to be on the receiving end of Hit-Girl's "Ball Destructor".

And Vic isn't exactly featless either. He is the best Cop in New York, he is their Captain. He is playing both the police and the mobsters.

He easily punched through a door, and made accurate shots:

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Has a rather ridiculous ending, lol.

And he is a fast shot as well:

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Here the Skull and Bones gang, Vic's the leader, gun down 16 guys, if it was done evenly he gunned down 3 or 4 guys himself.

Durability - In the Iraq video, the last video of this post, Sam is knocked out by a mine explosion. Though it could be argued that his teammate tanked most of the force. I could see Mindy being a tad more durable but with Sam's VX pain tolerance showing... I'm a little iffy.

I'd say she definitely has a brunt force durability advantage, Her body vs poison is not something she has really gone up against before though.

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  • Hit-Girl tanks 8 bullets. (1)
  • Hit-Girl tanks being kicked 15 feet. (2)
  • Hit-Girl tanks being punched 15 feet, through a glass window and a counter. (3-4)
  • Hit-Girl tanks 3 hits from Johnny G wielding a meat mallet. (5)
  • Hit-Girl tanks a close range grenade. (6)
  • Hit-Girl tanks a high speed crash that sends her through the cars windshield. (7-9)

Deadlier weapons. Not sure how much deadlier you can get than a gun. Lets say she just has more weapons. I think they're equally deadly. The best weapon each have in this battle is a machine gun. Something Sam has more experience with.

Sure he has more experience, but I think I showed in this last post how formidable she is with her machine gun.

I can't believe I didn't think of improvisation. There are so many feats of Sam improvising.

Same with Hit-Girl, not only does she improvise on the fly, like I showed with her outsmarting goons earlier:

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She also uses random crap very skillfully and lethally:

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Lets be honest, there is really not a better improvisation then effortlessly killing a skilled fighter with his own finger :

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Lethality - I'd have to give a slight edge to Mindy, due to morals. In this type of situation, I just don't see Sam going all out on Mindy right off the bat. He's no animal. However, when he knows Mindy is actually good at killing and is the real deal, he's not holding back. I mean he was feening to kill Grim because she pissed him off lol.

And that could very well be why Hit-Girl takes this. Mindy has no reason to hold back, she rarely does (only the twice for the ending movie fights plot of not using guns). I'll make one more category and than close this thing.

Hand to Hand and Close Quarters Combat Skill

I think Mindy has the edge all around to be honest.

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She's a black belt in some unknown martial art. (I asked Millar about it, but he never replied...disappointing.)(The belt appears brown, but keep in mind this is an offcolor flashback and things that are normally black, ie the M16 also appears brown.) (Scan 1). She has been trained in close combat and knife skills. (2)

She effortlessly took down Kick-Ass (He didn't even land a single hit), even Dave at this time could handle 3 to 4 thugs at once:

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She seems much lighter on her feet, especially in these 2 fights:

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Her agile style of fighting will be off putting to Sam's sorta "keep them at arms length fight style". He'll be confused when she is literally jumping around on top of him.

Her throwing knives, throwing stars, and long swords give her range over Sam's knives (Click her to see her chopping a guy completely in half). Her faster reaction time, better agility and the fact that she's a small target makes her much harder to tag. Her improvisation is great, very great, She will be using anything and everything to put Sam down, from all her gear, to the legs off a bar stool, to her teeth, to his own finger. She's more durable and she strikes harder (BALL DESTRUCTOR!). Sam's punches/kicks won't harm her as much as her attacks harm him.

Her knowledge of the body. She doesn't know anything ridiculous like nerve pinches or pressure points, but she knows how to hurt, how to maim, and how to kill. She has been stated to know over a hundred ways to kill a man. Showed especially in her fight with Mother Russia when she targeted blood lines to kill her. And to reinforce his point she tortures Gigante into telling all the secrets of his corrupt police department. She spend a full night tortureing him, he came out of the experience an "uncomfortable" 60 pounds lighter, but alive. To further this point, in the first appearance of Hit-Girl way back when she saves Kick-Ass in the drug dealers apartment, he says "She handled those knives like a f#cking surgeon"

Now lets bring morals into this. Several times you have stated that you don't think Sam will give it his all at first, which is understandable. But a disadvantage none the less. He may hold his shots, go for some nonlethal strikes, not quite punch his hardest, all this will go to Mindy getting the win.

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#40 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43594 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukas12: Will do. I'm not sure if it's finished or if he wanted to go another round. He hasn't replied back yet.

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#42 Edited by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman This will be my final post, so I'm just going to tie things off in response to your latest post and formulate a conclusion giving relevant insight. Sort of like a TL;DR post, if you will. To all those who probably don't give a damn at this point, I apologize for the 8 month on and off going arguments.

Ready? Go!

It's about time I finally get around to finishing this. Kick-Ass 3 has finally ended and we'll probably be seeing no more of Hit-Girl. The good thing is that the final issue gave her some amazing feats that she definitely needed to win this cav.

Part of the reason why I didn't reply as soon as I did was due to you just finishing another comic and introducing new feats. It changes things. But I think I can still make this work without lowballing or overrating.

Accuracy

You know what? I'm conceding that Mindy is more accurate. That doesn't take anything away from Sam, but Mindy has more feats in the way of difficulty. I also argued that Sam is quicker on the draw, but that was silly on me. However, I think Sam's rate of fire is more impressive though. Just to brush over these feats since its been a while...

Exhibit A

Sam disarms a burglar and shoots him. Before the other burglars could even register what was going on, Sam shoots them also.

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Exhibit B

Sam is actually up against Splinter Cell agents (who have a lot more combat credibility than mere burglars). He performs a similar feat as above, but what makes it vastly impressive is the fact that Sam was shot by Anna prior. Anna shoots him at around the 35 second mark.

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Exhibit C

Sam busts through a room immediately shooting out a couple of lights and before the asset could even get off a shot, Sam shoots him in the shoulder.

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I'm not trying to measure dicks here or prove Sam is more accurate, so there's really no point in me trying to prove so. But his accuracy + rate of fire just proves he isn't totally incompetent in a firefight (IF it came down to it). For all of Mindy's bullet timing feats, she sure takes a lot of shots in the body. Sam is more than capable of putting Mindy down if she lets up for even a second. She has to remember that this isn't some random goon or SWAT officer, she faces on the daily.

Speed/Agility

As a 5 year old Mindy was able to run 70+ mile per hour to make it to the bridge. The train is moving 70 mph, and she was able to get aboard, and run to the bridge, even after the train had past it.

...

As an 11 year old Mindy was able to steal a cops gun during the confusion of a series of explosions, run and catch up with Dave's kidnappers in a speeding van. You can clearly see she is not on the van when it drives through the gate. Also she is somehow accurately landing head shots without even being able to see her targets.

I question these feats for the sheer fact that an older more experienced Mindy hasn't yet shown this speed. Up until this moment in the debate, I was pretty confident that Sam and Mindy were debatable, but then you come in here dropping feats that a cybernetically enhanced Bionic Man can perform is a little sketchy, if not inconsistent. I won't go any further than that, I'll just leave it to you or the voters, because that don't seem right!

Backflip kicks a guy through a table. (1) Cartwheels and accurately throwing knives immediately after. (2). Blocks Mother Russia's attack, scales her and puts her in a hold, that she couldn't bust out off, she resorted to biting. (3). Shows skill with rope knife, jumps on top of guy, and makes a guy shoot himself in the face. (4). Jumps down couple story rooftop and maneuvers through cops to steal a car. (5-6). Easily jumps rooftops. (7-9). Jumps over a chair thrown at her and blocks a bottle with her swords. (10).

We're disagreeing on agility because we're showcasing different forms of agility. I'm showing Sam's proficiency and superiority in parkour/urban terrain acrobatics. You're showing Mindy's acrobatic combat skill. I was more to the point that Sam has the environment and urban terrain to his advantage. The dude can scale buildings, cliffs, pipes, ships, bridges so on and so forth.

Her speed and agility made it difficult for Frank to tag her:

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Eh, Sam's not one to really rush his opponents. So I doubt there will be much time for evasive manoeuvers.

Pain Tolerance

I'm not going to go any further into this. Sam is trained to resist interrogation and has done so by some pretty dangerous people. In fact, his best feat involved him taking a beating from one of Sadiq's men while under the effects of a potent VX nerve agent (which by that point, should have killed a normal man alone), but I've shown that in my opener.

Hit-Girl tanks 8 bullets. (1)

Hit-Girl tanks being kicked 15 feet. (2)

Hit-Girl tanks being punched 15 feet, through a glass window and a counter. (3-4)

Hit-Girl tanks 3 hits from Johnny G wielding a meat mallet. (5)

Hit-Girl tanks a close range grenade. (6)

Hit-Girl tanks a high speed crash that sends her through the cars windshield. (7-9)

I think that's just pain tolerance for the most part. She's still human, she's taken a lot of punishment. But overall, I think its up in the air.

Striking Power

Breaks a guys leg while barely paying attention to him.

She easily breaks 2 guys legs in the same attack.

Breaks 2 high security prison guards legs while weakened.

A simply angry pound from her fist is enough to bend a metal tray

You won't believe how easy it is to break bones, especially at the joint. Also, aren't most canteen trays plastic?

Sam Fisher does not want to be on the receiving end of Hit-Girl's "Ball Destructor".

This, on the other hand, is a worry. Impressive find. However, I think its up in the air. If you've seen Ninja Assassin there's a pretty gruesome scene where Raizo is smashing a guy's head repeatedly into a porcelain urinal until it breaks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Iy3Dg3OK4. In the following video, Sam kicks Dmitri at least 3 meters (or almost 10 feet) hard enough to shatter a few tiles on the wall. Punches his head through a sink. Punches his head through a urinal. Surprised Dmitri even stayed conscious through all that.

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Hand-to-Hand

Why not? She shrugged off a throat crush from Frank D'Amico, who can demolish thick tables. And from Mother Russia who can punch and kick people 15 feet, ripoff car doors, and snap grown mens necks between her legs.

I'd rather not ponder over one hand-to-hand option that Sam may or may not use, but Mindy didn't really hold up well when Frank and Mother Russia did it anyway. She could have died if Frank didn't coincidentally throw her around for no reason, same with Mother Russia. Sam definitely has the feats to kill her with a throat grab. He's already easily dropped full grown men with it, twice.

I think Mindy has the edge all around to be honest.

Blasphemy!

She's a black belt in some unknown martial art. (I asked Millar about it, but he never replied...disappointing.)(The belt appears brown, but keep in mind this is an offcolor flashback and things that are normally black, ie the M16 also appears brown.) (Scan 1). She has been trained in close combat and knife skills. (2)

I don't want to bring in feats from the novels, as it will open too much. But I will post a smidge of information based around Krav Maga.

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Sam is grade 3B, the highest level of competency in the martial art.

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Even Dave at this time could handle 3 to 4 thugs at once.

With how much difficulty?

Her agile style of fighting will be off putting to Sam's sorta "keep them at arms length fight style". He'll be confused when she is literally jumping around on top of him.

Highly doubtful Sam will be confused. She can jump around the room all she likes, but when they actually engage Sam could simply utilize Judo/grappling techniques. Which given his level of physicality of overpowering Sadiq, an equally formidable opponent, will be troublesome for Mindy to counter.

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Conclusion

Lets look at this objectively.

Sam's main play is stealth. That's what he does, that's the main objective in every mission he encounters because if he gets caught, the U.S will deny any involvement they had.

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He goes up against terrorists, CIA agents, special forces, other Splinter Cell operatives etc on the daily. The level he'll be playing at is an all time high. I think its pretty safe to say he'll approach this mission with caution. His proficient environmental navigation will also aid him in tracking Mindy and as shown in the opener, Sam is as quiet as a mouse.

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A soundproof room with hanging chains, and broken glass to hinder Sam's success. Lambert was monitoring a few hidden mics and didn't even know he started the course, let alone finish it. I think Sam has a better shot of spotting Mindy before visa versa which gives him the massive advantage in drawing first blood.

In regard to training, I think Sam's more formal advanced military background is more impressive. He trains as hard as what the situation calls for, and in most cases, the situation is critical.

Morals -- With expectations set so exceedingly high, Sam is going to be thrown off by Mindy's presence, no doubt. In return, Mindy's expectations will fall far lower than her highest expectations could dream to reach. She'll also be thrown off. Hell, in Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Sam went undercover to infiltrate a terrorist organisation. Perhaps he could even convince Mindy through more measurable means that he is not a threat, and then pop her in a sleeper hold when the opportunity presents itself. Overall, I know I brought up morals a few times, but thinking over, it shouldn't really be that much of a hindrance. As soon as Sam takes her seriously, he's going all out.

If the situation turns drastic, I've given proof that Sam is competent enough with firearms. In a firefight he can keep Mindy at bay, might even get a couple of slugs in from behind cover. Utilize his surroundings to outflank her.

In close quarters, Sam has dealt with people utilizing their improvisational prowess. Most notably against Kobin and some military uniformed man in the following video.

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Moreover, I think Sam is technically more skilled due to Krav Maga training.

Done!

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#43 Posted by Frozen (21134 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by MonsterStomp (36982 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp: Are votes open?

We'll see what AllStarSuperman has to say yet, then we'll open it. I just had to get this out of the way. Tried to make my final post a "TL;DR" post because I was just sick of this on my mind.

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#45 Posted by Frozen (21134 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by THORSON (4973 posts) - - Show Bio

Hit girl she just a a lil girl. So her innocents will be her deadly skill