@deathhero61 Great post, I'll try to follow suit. Also, once again please ignore any typos or mistakes scans you might come across, because I typed a majority of this entire post from a phone and it took about 5-6 hours. But, the show must go on..
Final Round: Nail in the Coffin
"I understand it all now! The true reason for my wrath! I could not stand it! There is always some fool who wants to rule the world! Always forcing others to do what they cannot do for themselves! That's why I pray to no one! Nor will I be prayed to! But above all else I will never forgive you for making my daughter cry! This is your end!!"--To Chakravartin
General Counters
He spammed a large sequence of punches at massively hypersonic to light speeds, even a guess of a hundred punches with the style of animation we are looking at isn't unfair at all.
That is fair, but not what you originally proposed.. there's a massive difference between "a hundred" and "thousands". I think it's better to simply admit your assumption was off than to back track and change it to save face.
And I can compare it to Frieza's because its not only in form significantly weaker than(and I mean significantly, like Final Form Frieza even at that point would actually need to transform into his golden form in order to deal with SSJ2 level opponents, that should seriously tell you something.) he was already significantly exhausted and battered. Making the feat more impressive. It doesn't help that feats such as Goku and Beerus's clash exist....the initial clash alone before it started to further spread and become more powerful, was shaking several planets and stars and shattering some as well.
Yes, but that was also Asura's weakest form as well, and he was bruised and injured from repeated battles (heck, all his arms were blown off during the spam against Wyzen) and the version I'm debating is astronomically more powerful the one who completed that feat. As for Goku and Beerus' clash, to my knowledge, it was stated that the shockwaves grew more powerful as they traveled further away from their origin point (for whatever reason), and that feat is shared with Beerus who's monumentally stronger than SSG Goku. So I find it rather fatuous to scale that feat to Goku in order to once again scale to Hit.
Eh? look at the image again, it really isn't that much bigger than the planet.
Would it vaporize the planet if it immediately hit? Definitely, in an instant. But large planet level is planets the size of Uranus and Saturn. There's nothing in that blast that suggest its that powerful unless you are referring to its potency.
I mean, twice as large before fully expanding? And that's disregarding the volume and width..
I agree that it's not quantifiably near the size of gas giants in our solar system, but by large planet lvl I simply meant far larger than the planet, not marginally.
Also regarding knocking away Ki blasts, Ki blasts have a large degree of concussive force before they even explode in the first place. For instance, when Gohan was fighting Super Buu, he threw out a desperate, but very basic Ki Blast at him, and Buu knocked it back at him, the blast going straight through the planet like Augus' sword without exploding at all. This could simply be Buu's own physical strength, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the case. There are other examples, better ones actually, but this is the only one that comes to mind right now.
It's painfully obvious even in that gif that it's due to Buu's physical strength.. he hit the ki ball back at Gohan with enough force to send him through the planet. Simple as that.
Not to be nitpicky, but this is usually when he brings down an opponent, and they are completely vulnerable, he MOSTLY goes for punches and kicks and what not and when an opening presents itself he goes for a grab. My headcanon for this is that in martial arts or fighting in general, grabs beats guards, guards beat punches and kicks, and punckes and kicks beats grabs, if an opening presents itself like here for example when he fought Wyzen, as soon as he was down he went for the opportunity while he was dazed to rush him and grab him.
11:16-11:40, stuns him with his own missiles, than rushes in for the grab.
Tackles grunt to the floor, the grunt leaving himself open for him to do so, after quite the number of blows and seemingly dazed, Asura grabs him then does the classic Asura drag on the floor treatment.
16:21-16:44
Your point being? Read the debate again, the only thing you're doing is proving me right. You initially said that Asura's lifting strength advantage is useless because he isn't much of a "grappler", then I responded by saying it was completely wrong, as Asura is a fan of picking of and flinging his opponents-- and provided on-screen evidence of that with the gif of Wyzen. Then you rebutted by linking two videos showing Asura doing just that, as well as tackling, wrangling, and dragging his opponents across the floor; your only semblance of disagreement being the hesitation that he'd use it against Hit due to your admitted "headcanon" of martial arts.. And just for the record, here's yet another example of Asura using moves in which lifting strength would be necessary:
At this point it's very easy to recognize that you're running out of ideas and counters here and are just droning on, as there are two counter statements you made that I was forced to ignore since you said they "didn't matter" or were "not relevant"... Case in point:
Asura has no feats in his standard non-destructor forms, that are above what his berserker form has shown in terms of energy projection, at least based off what you showed me. That's part of the reason why I brought it up. But that's not relevant.
Also, I can argue Destructor feats feats here because he's composite, so it doesn't matter whether his non-destructor forms have that level of energy projection.
No matter, I have no reason to not continue this CAV, there's still stuff to be discussed, and things that I have questions about anyway, so this is still a learning experience regardless. I apologize for not checking with you on this. When I asked for composite feats, I mostly meant anime/manga feats for Hit. But this is fine, I can still debate against the odds even with composite feats. In fact I'll start using them as well to make things interesting.
Apology accepted. I appreciate your humbleness. And being able to adapt to unforeseen situations and still be resilient with your counters is a sign of an excellent debater, so kudos to you.
Pretty faulty conclusion, in the first gif, all he's doing is abusing his teleportation abilities or his time manipulation abilities, maybe even both, in order to completely outmaneuver Asura. There's no blizing going on, implying that they are equal instead of one being severely inferior to the other. Also I think you have that fight of context game mechanic wise, the very same gifs you showed happen multiple times throughout the fight regardless of whether its the beginning of the fight or near the end.(Except the third gif which actually happened near the end)
You're simply assuming Chakravartin used time manipulation and teleportation in those scenarios without any proof. He could just as well have been using pure speed when he moved FTE to Asura. Even if you think that those instances don't constitute a blitz (despite uncompromising scans), I'll just post several gifs of Chakra going brutal in h2h with Asura, to prove he has combat speed superior to Asura's reactions [which I proved to be tens of billions of times FTL] without need for blitzing. For example, this instance where he simply lunges forward and clocks him with a mean one to the face:
Or where he swivels, knees, and kicks him meters away, then landed two vicious blows, and finally where they barrel rolled across the ground taking turns to hammer each other over and over:
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You have to admit that Chakravrtin is capable of tagging Asura in combat. I mean, how could you not? This indisputably places Chakravartins combat speed at 31 billionx FTL (since YOU yourself agreed the feat where Asura weaves through Vartin's lasers give him that level of reactions), and Asura was incapable of evading those strikes, meaning Chakravartin can land blows that fast.
When you think about it, it's already consistent for him, since in his Golden form (which was weaker) he could send projections at those speeds. Asura adapted to him and grew fast and powerful enough to overwhelm Vartin in CQC, making Asura 31 billion times FTL in combat as well, seeing here where he and Chakravartin lept at each other at the same time, and he edges him out in speed by managing to land his blow first:
This makes for yet another piece irrefutable evidence that corroborates my claims on Asura's speed. At this point, Asura's speed advantage is incontestable. He was able to casually and seamlessly dance his way past Chakra's mantra beams in Destructor form, and these energy beams were fast enough to shoot from the center of the Milky Way all the way to Earth's location in a matter of seconds, making them tens of billions of times FTL (31 billionx to be exact) and Asura retains this level of movement in reaction speed as he ascends to higher forms. Creator Vartin was capable of tagging EOS Asura consistently throughout their fight, putting his combat speed above Asura's reactions, and Asura adapted and surpassed him in all stats by the conclusion of their battle.
He can and he will blitz Hit, the second the battle commences.
Huh? Chakravatin basically allowed him entry in order to negotiate him being his heir to the universe, and even if he didn't, can you even explain how Asura himself did it? This doesn't seem much different from the times Superman and Hulk do similarly absurd things. Asura didn't even intend to do this "dimension shattering" let alone travel to the dimension Chakravatin was in. So it not only makes me question whether or not Asura had anything to do with it, it also made me question if he could even replicate it in the first place. Hit's abilities work differently for the most part anyway.
You're sorely mistaken... either that or you're simply confused. This is Chakravartin's pocket dimension, Event Horizon (also referred to as the Blue Dimension):
Asura transported himself there by destroying the Golden Chakravartin construct in outer space, using a punch that was strong enough to simultaneously shatter the dimensional barrier:
Following this clip, there was a fade to white and a cut scene before we see Asura appear in Event Horizon, now with a disarmed Destructor form as he's downgraded to Mantra.
We know Chakravartin wasn't the one who willingly sent him to Event Horizon because he was testing Asura's abilities by spamming suns and planets as projectiles, and was surprised when he arrived. In fact, the very first things Chakravartin says to Asura when he shows up was "you have exceeded my expectations", followed by "I praise you"..
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..This implies that Chakravartin was impressed by Asura's abilities, and didn't expect him to defeat his Golden Form and wind up in his personal pocket dimension. It wouldn't make sense for Chakravartin to willingly teleport Asura to Event Horizon yet be surprised when he got there. And it was only after Asura broke into that dimension that he decided that Asura was his rightful heir and returned Mithra to him in exchange for his assistance:
This proves that Asura was able to shatter a dimensional barrier while pursuing an enemy because his own ability, not outside interference. And obviously he intended to do it, since he was chasing after Chakravartin to receive his daughter back and end his destructive regime. And the question of whether or not he can replicate that feat is negated by the fact we literally see him replicate it, as several minutes later he performed it again,making his dimension shattering both legit and consistent. Here Chakravartin BFR's Asura by dimension dumping him to what appears to be a post-apocalyptic Naraka. He does so by hitting the ground of Event Horizon and shattering the dimensional wall with his power:
After he was sent there, he battled with an apparition of Golden Chakravartin. We know this isn't the real Golden Vartin because that form was much larger and it was already previously destroyed. This is also not Chakra's real body because his real body is human sized and remained in Event Horizon, which we see when Asura returns. Asura managed to escape this pocket dimension by, once again, shattering the dimensional wall and crossing from Naraka into Event Horizon:
This shows Asura has ability to counter things like dimensional BFR, but most importantly, it allows him to do thinks like chase opponents who hide their real bodies in separate dimensions..
Hit's phasing/intangibiliy and what not is all based around his time manipulation. Its not the same thing regardless of how you cut it. So I'm not even sure if he could just randomly do it and stop Hit from using his abilities.
True, however even in the video you linked where Vados explains time skip, it all boils down to the fact that Hit creates a parallel world (or separate dimension) with the time he stored. Asura has the ability to freely travel to and fro alternate/parallel dimensions in a similar manner to Vartin after he gained his mantra boost. If Asura punches Hit, instead of his hand passing through his body like in the case with Goku, Asura will crack the barrier and shift into his dimension before proceeding to beat him up.
And if so how does it work? Hit being intangible is simply him being somewhere else while at the same time being in the general area. Its not as if Asura is going to break himself into an entirely new dimension.
That's exactly what's going to happen. At this point, refuting Asura being able to break his way into Hit's dimension brazenly contradicts the fact we see him do just that on-screen more than once, and is nothing more than you simply refusing to believe it because you don't like it.
Its a space created from stored time, its not something he can just destroy, even if he does break through the ability, Hit won't be there when he does. Meaning Hit can still either create distance or launch another assault Asura wouldn't see coming because he would be too busy attacking the phantom which has nothing to do with Hit.
Asura is faster than Hit and can go back and forth between the dimensions, so if Hit wants to play a game of tag like you're insinuating, he's sure to lose. I remind you that if Asura manages to make physical contact with Hit's body once he'll simply explode, as Hit has zero durability feats to suggest he can tank attacks of this caliber without a 12-page essay's worth of scaling:
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Is these gifs we see Asura casually destroy dozens of planets and stars, ranging from yellow Suns to Blue Hypergiants
Didn't stop him from freezing Goku who was previously immune to his time manipulation, Hit improved and froze Goku while using his time skip, essentially adding another layer of timeskip(similar to certain characters in toriko spamming a bunch of back channels)
Yeah, this is all under the assumption that Asura hasn't already blitzed and oneshotted him by this point. He won't get the leisurely time time adapt his abilities to Asura and improve his time skip to fit his advantages. This battle won't last very long and I only need to touch you one time to win. I only need to land one attack to kill you. Whether it be a punch or a kick or a blast. And with my speed advantage, I'll be able to accomplish that long before you manage to alter time in your favor.
That's the perk of Hit's time manipulation abilities, he can further improve them and hone them regardless of the powerlevels, meaning Asura's power level doesn't mean jack shit here regardless of that manga scan you pulled. And you say a few seconds? That's absolutely awful. Remember, Hit's time skip used to last only 0.1 seconds.....if Asura can't even break out in a second, then that means Hit could immediately end the fight the first chance he gets.....
This isn't likely at all. You're not seeing the bigger here. You're focusing on small aspects and feeble advantages Hit has and trying to exploit them to swing the battle in your favor, but at the same time this makes you delirious to other key factors that have to be set in place in order for things like this to be possible in the first place. In case you haven't noticed, Asura is 31 billion times faster than the speed of light, in a much weaker form before adapting. He can also bust solar systems with single blasts and consume living souls to charge mantra. I mean, this is a guy who dives head first into multi-planet busting+ laser beams moving at massively FTL speeds in base, only thinking to transform after they've made contact:
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So it brings me to this one question... what's time stop supposed to do? What advantage could immobilizing Asura possibly give Hit, especially when Asura doesn't need movement or even consciousness for abilities like draining souls with the Mantra Reactor? Even if he couldn't, how is Hit supposed to harm him? With what, phasing? Asura's pain tolerance enables him to continue fighting despite the loss of limbs and internal organs (or should I say machinery), so what's one or two internal attacks supposed to do to him? And by raw feats, his external durability is too great to be breached by Hit, so the absolute best outcome that could result from abusing time-skip is a possible stalemate. But that won't happen here because Asura can adapt and resist it once it's been used on him (like how he adapted to Chakravartin's advantages) and since he's already familiar with time manipulation he'd have an easier time doing so.
Eh? To be fair, Hit did sit through one of Goku's full powered Kamehamehas like it was nothing while having an additional fight(what you saw with Goku charging hit and Hit improving his Time-Skip above? That happened while they were both inside a explosion caused by a SSB KKX10 Kamehameha....)Cell boasted solar system level destruction(although we cannot prove it wasn't hyperbole) Buu cracked dimensions with his screams and his energy output and transcended space itself(similar to how Asura did so against Chakravartin) I already showed a Android Saga Goku destroying the freaking sun with a kamehameha..... in fact since It seems we are both using composite feats, since we are this far anyway, Cell actually destroyed the solar system in one of the games.....
Goku is far beyond that yet him and hit sat in his kamehameha like it was nothing.
Also in addition, Asura normally starts off with physical attacks even while bloodlusted.
Well, the last sentence you made in that statement voids the importance of the preceding paragraph. You said "Asura normally starts off with physical attacks.." to imply that Asura's physical attacks aren't as potent as his energy projection which you think Hit can accommodate. But contrary to popular belief, Asura's best DC feat is actually a striking one, and that would be busting the Golden Chakravartin construct with the punch:
That punch sent him into the Blue Dimension (Event Horizon) but it also completely destroyed Golden Chakravartin's body, who was so large he had dozens of entire galaxies orbiting his body:
And here are several other perspective shots to solidify this:
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And even before you mention that the size scaling can sometimes be inconsistent (trust me, I know---> 1,2) I have a fall back that counters it. Golden Chakra was stated to be gravitating the milky way by sucking it toward himself at incredible speeds.
So Asura's feat of one-shotting it greatly shifts his striking power into the galactic class, for being able to destroy something so dense it's gravitational pull was moving the milky and keeping miniature distant galaxies in orbit of itself. In other words, his physical attacks are his most powerful and his raw DC jumps from solar system+ to small galaxy lvl.
If he manages to land a single blow on Hit (which he will), Hit dies. That's not really up for debate.
Already addressed Asura's speed. So I'm not sure about that.
You addressed this by saying that his speed only applies to travel, movement and reactions, and that he was only capable of doing it in Desctructor form which was a temporary amp. I thoroughly debunked this by reminding you that-
Asura is composite, so he's allow to use feats across all forms. And EOS Asura is superior to Desctructor anyway, so the notion a Asura can't replicate Desctructor feats or here or doesn't retain his stats is nonsense.
I elaborated on how Asura's gains combat speed from that feat. Chakravartin surpassed his reactions by tagging him many times, and by the end of their fight Asura adapted and became faster than him
Eh? I would think his most important body part, the mantra core would be a lot more of a pressing issue....
He wouldn't know where the mantra core is stored. Hit would attempt to phase his heart and gain nothing from it.
He was still severely slowed down. I recall him losing a fight against Yasha, his equal throughout most of the story when his arms got ripped off. I can only imagine what would happen if he lost something way more important than his arms, such as bodily functions that allow him to move around in the first place.
Well yeah, because if you're a brick and your arms are gone you have limited attack options in battle lol. But that doesn't matter, as I do recall posting a video in my opener that showed Asura not having arms doesn't slow him down at all:
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In fact, if you watched the video from beginning to end (which I'm hoping some of you will do, it's freakin' awesome) you'll see he created new arc made of energy and continued to wreak havoc. In fact he raised hell. And the instance with Augus clearly showed his pain tolerance allows him to ignore significant internal injuries.
So he gets punched in the face afterward? During? I highly doubt he's still going to punch Hit while its happening, he's going to flinch, he's going to actually feel it, he won't tank something like that....
So you're telling me you saw him "flinch" when he got his inner bowels destroyed by several thousand kilometer sword moving at MHS+ speeds? Yeah right. Asura's body parts get destroyed all the time and he NEVER winces or shows any sign of pain. No reason for him start now just because you said so.
The reason Asura won't be able to deflect it is because the ki blasts are invisible....so how is he going to deflect attacks he cannot see in the first place????
Asura can see souls as they leave bodies, as he's witnessed several people getting soul ripped before:
This means his sight is not limited to the physical plane but includes the astral plane as well. That and the fact he can see past dimensional walls allows me to reach the logical conclusion that Hit's ki blasts might be invisible to the naked eye, but someone who can see past the material plane should be more than capable of at least noticing them or realizes where they are.
Jiren is significantly above Hit, Goku and the like....and honestly, if we were debating Jiren vs Asura that would be another debate entirely, especially with Jiren's feat of outright tanking the Final Flash from SSB Vegeta?
It doesn't help the fact that Jiren has been unfortunately(I sincerely mean this btw) confirmed to be GoD level. And I don't think I need to tell you how powerful that is. Jiren blocking Hit's attack is a feat for Jiren in itself.
Fair enough.
Phew.... if that's all you got that doesn't really debunk my claim that Hit is more skilled. I mean Hit's skill as an assassin is known across the universes...that alone kind of speaks for itself. That and keeping up with Goku in hand to hand combat.
Well you should be happy, because if this turns into a h2h brawl at any point in time, Asura's stats tower above his which would result in Hit's demise. And he's shown adaptation before, like during the battle with Vartin where see a phenomenon that can only be described as an increase in strength:
Unless there's some statement or part of that fight I didn't analyze correctly, there is legit no way or reason for Asura to be capable of replicating the "feat". Asura didn't even seem to realize what was going when he traveled to the dimension in the first place.
Now you're just making stuff up. He casually strutted into Event Horizon looking for Chakravartin. And the only reason why he was chasing him in the first place was to get his daughter back, so it's obvious that it was intentional. I mean, this doesn't look intentional to you?
You're saying you actually don't see Asura charging up mantra in his fist before lunging towards Golden Vartin with the clear purpose of hitting it? Yeah, he totally "didn't realize" what was going on when he broke Vartin and shattered the dimensional wall. As for whether he can replicate it, the fact he already did it twice in different forms you should silence that argument completely.
And even if Asura can "shatter dimensional walls" what's the method? How does he do it? How will he approach Hit when he does it? Will he immediately think "I can stop this" and do it? Will he know what he's dealing with? I just don't think its an ability you would be able to reliably debate for.
He didn't stop to think when he did it both times I showed you him doing it. You're in denial. It's so simply, there were no cheap parlor tricks or hidden messages to the gifs I posted several times already. When he attacks hit and throws a punch, instead of his arm passing through his intangible body, he'll shatter the dimensional wall revealing Hit's true body in the parallel time-skip dimension, and proceed to attack and kill him.
Asura has none of those benefits or any similar benefits, or any feats that would suggest he could replicate any of the above in some other way or shape.
Even if Asura can't resist time skip (which you managed to put up a good case for, bravo) I fail to see any advantages Hit gains from it. At the end of the day, he still has no way to hurt him (phasing was addressed, plus he doesn't have the required DC to harm him externally), and Asura can just blitz him before he activates it. Asura can move faster than Hit can perceive so arguing that he blitzes before he literally thinks to use it as actually a solid argument. And we all know how the battle will end if Asura manages to touch Jiren even once...
Goku failed to do so, and Jiren struggled to break out of it. And he didn't resist his timeskip, he adapted to it. Watch the video I posted above related to Jiren.
It's my fault that I compared Asura to them; he doesn't have their level of power of skill and different people react to situations differently. I can accept that. But I still believe Asura has ways of dealing with time-skip and a clear path to victory despite it.
Jiren was significantly faster than Hit, like it wasn't even a contest, but what Hit did is constantly attempt to attack him and memorized the level of speed he used to counter his attacks and did his best to find a strategy best suited to landing an attack. That is what Hit can do here. And I addressed the that fight already.
Asura is significantly faster than Hit as well, but the difference between him and Jiren is that Asura will make sure to kill him the instant the fight starts with a single punch, and not give Hit a chance to adapt to his speed. Even in the case when Dyspo blitzed Hit, Hit managed to adapt right? Well he only was capable of that because Dyspo didn't have any oneshot moves to employ while he still had his speed advantage. While on the other hand, Asura can kill him with a single blow, and will blitz him and perform just that, so his speed advantage is lethal.
You must not have been watching either fight, because Hit himself noted that Jiren wasn't stopping his timeskip blitzes because of resistance he was stopping them because he adapted to them. Goku at first before using Kaioken to stop the timeskip was adapting as well.
And you say these things as if I haven't shown repeatedly that Asura's power rises with his anger and that he adapted to Chakravartin's advantages in battle, only to grow stronger, faster, and more powerful by the end... do you not see the problem here? It's almost as if you only accept a hax ability for the DB character but when someone demonstrates the same or similar ability it's all of a sudden invalid.. I don't see how it's fair for you to hold a double standard. Jiren and Goku adapted to Hit's powers, but yet Asura's adaptation isn't good enough? For what reason? Is there an extra detail you're leaving out? If not I don't see need for the refutation of clear feats.
To be fair, like I said before, Asura even while bloodlusted usually starts with physical attacks. And honestly, he is usually always bloodlusted in a fight. Asura vs Wyzen, rushed in with a punch to shut him up. Asura vs Augus, rushed in with a punch to shut HIM up. Kalrow, he attempted to punch him first even though he wasn't physically there. Asura vs Yasha, started out hand to hand.
Yes, and unlucky for you, you made this statement without knowing that Asura's most powerful attacks are his physical ones like punches, so your point is naught.
Meh. I won't try to argue otherwise, especially with all the scaling I would have to do to refute that claim, but i'll just put this out there while I can, Fused Zamasu threatened to destroy the entire galaxy.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but that only puts him on Composite Asura's level. So we're back to where we started.
all I'll say is with physical attacks, Asura isn't one shotting IMO, and thats what he's going to start with bloodlusted or not allowing Hit to decide what to do from there before Asura gets the chance to end it with energy projection(which can be avoided by dimension hopping anyway)
Oh really? Scans of Hit tanking repeated Galaxy lvl punches at a rate of 31 billionx FTL?
and thats what he's going to start with bloodlusted or not allowing Hit to decide what to do from there before Asura gets the chance to end it with energy projection(which can be avoided by dimension hopping anyway)
An ability which, last I checked, is completely useless here as Asura can cross dimensions as well.
Timeskip was countered by skilled combatants who had their own training, skills and special abilities necessary to adapt to Hit's timeskip. And last I checked, Hit basically won his first fight with Goku.....via timeskip....Goku couldn't even continue fighting. And the anime contradicts the manga by giving Hit the ability to improve his time manipulation without needing to alter his power level.(The manga also gives him a similar ability but it comes full force in the anime version of Hit's fight with Goku)
You have no way to hurt me even if you do skip time, while on the other hand I can blitz and oneshot you before you think to use it. It's simple really, I just don't see you having a path to victory with it, at least not the way it's been portrayed.
Dimension Hopping being countered isn't a guarantee because there is no surefire way to prove that Asura could replicate crossing dimensions like that or whether he had anything to do with it.
Debunked multiple times.
For all we know Chakravatin ended the fight and maybe even reverted Asura to the form he was when he entered the dimension so he could negotiate with Asura instead of continuing the fight.(we have no idea if Asura has control over the Destructor form or not, the ability just happened) Chakravatin is powerful deity that operates on a large scale.
Lol yeah, Vartin totally interfered:
Saying Vartin brought him to that dimension (despite not expecting him to make it there, hence "exceeded" his expectations) is the equivalent to a teacher giving a student all the answers to a test but being shocked when they get an A..
Conclusion & Summary
Almost there guys, just 3 more counters to go before I conclude this post:
But why would the Mantra Reactor rip souls passively if it needs souls to be inputted manually by the gods in the first place? Nothing in your explanation really told me that its function was to soul rip passively. In fact in I believe it was episode 8 of Asura's Wrath, after his second revival I believe? He interfered with the Seven Deities plans to asborb the souls of a village. They brought special machines and everything and had to kill each of the villagers THEN extract their souls so they can be transferred.
Yeah but the problem with this comparison is that those machines aren't the Mantra Reactor, so you're grasping for straws. As for the explanation of how the mantra reactor does this passively, I'll explain it momentarily.
Nothing in your explanation, or what I looked up on the wiki, shows anything that you described, I even watched all the episodes all over again(part of the reason why it took me so long to make this post.) Hopefully you could point it out for me?
Also if the Mantra Reactor is already filled with millions of souls, and its job is to store them, why would it continuously drain souls if it has that many to fulfill the job in the first place? Mantra is an energy source and the reactor is like a battery.
Ok so, here's the additional explanation for while I think that react allows him to soul rip passively. Like I said in my previous post, Mantra comes in two forms-
1. Prayer from a priestess
2. Human Sacrificial souls
This was confirmed by Chakravartin:
So essentially, they're pretty much equivalent in terms of how to acquire it, as Mantra is spirituality from someone. It can come as souls or come as prayers from the religious, but they're both closely connected. Asura in episode 1 displayed the ability to passively absorb Mantra from Mithra's prayers, which allowed him to garner enough energy to power up and defeat Gohma Vlitra:
As you can clearly see, Asura was KO'd and knocked unconscious when Vlitra's beams exploded on him, but when Mithra prayed for him and Yasha he powered up and grew extra arms, meaning he didn't need awareness or consciousness to absorb the mantra generated from her prayers when Mithra prayed for him. So we can use the fact he can passively absorb Mantra from prayers and conclude him being able to passively absorb souls once he gains the Mantra reactor, because the Mantra reactor has several soul sucking feats and stored trillions of them over a long period of time.
I simply just think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence backing up Asura being able to soul rip whether passively or not. Fodder Seven Deity members like Wyzen and Kalrow can do it, and even Gohma can do it. Asura surpassed Chakravartin by the end of the series, and Chakravartin is the spinner of all Mantra in the AW verse, as stated multiple times:
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So when you add up all of these factors, and the instance that he passively absorb Mantra in a much weaker form than post-reactor, implying he actually can't use soul manipulation (whether passive or not) is actually kind of a stretch.
Edit: Isn't this no different from Reiatsu Crushing or Conqueror's Haki and similar passive abilities? There's no guarantee it would work on characters outside of the respective verses.
Possibly, but this is speculation on your part, and I'm pretty sure regular humans were the ones who had their souls ripped out, so it's not like genjutsu in which people argue it doesn't work on those w/o chakra (in this case chakra would be replaced with mantra). It would work on beings who possess souls.
Now... time to round this up. I'll just restate my advantages here and explain why I think Asura wins
Asura is faster than Hit. People with speed advantages over Hit tend to have openings for attack
Once there's an opening for Asura to attack Hit he'll take it, and whatever attack he dishes out will kill him, since it's most likely going to be a punch
Asura can break dimensional walls and will do so to counter Hit's dimension hopping and resulting intang from switching dimensions
Asura can blitz and attack Hit before he uses time-skip and possibly adapt to it since he' shown adaptation, and that seems to be a solid way to counter time-skip even one can't completely overcome it.
Asura can turn Hit's soul into Mantra
Asura is far stronger than Hit physically
Asura requires much less scaling for his feats to be impressive
Asura is a really stacked character overall. While Hit was impressive and a formidable opponent, I feel like Asura's advantages will be the underdog here and award him a comfortable victory.
And now I just want to say thank you to Deathhero for giving me one of the most challenging and enjoyable debates I've had since I stepped foot on this site. I salute to him and I thank everyone who took their time to read this incredibly long post of mine. I wish you guys the best, and hope to run into you in the future.
It's late, but I couldn't wait to get things rolling. Just a head's up though, Deathhero and I agreed on some new requirements for voting
- No users with under 500 posts can vote (we may allow exceptions if there should be)
- All votes are required to have 1 paragraph to be counted. That's minimum 3 decent length sentences
And then the basic ones like no voting twice, changing votes, etc. But other than that go nuts, but don't procrastinate. We'll only keep this open for 2 weeks or if there's a gap (which I doubt will happen).
@deathhero61: Rebuttals or questions? If they're rebuttals I won't be able to answer immediately since I'm super worn right now. I'll try to respond to questions quickly though.
And you say these things as if I haven't shown repeatedly that Asura's power rises with his anger and that he adapted to Chakravartin's advantages in battle, only to grow stronger, faster, and more powerful by the end... do you not see the problem here? It's almost as if you only accept a hax ability for the DB character but when someone demonstrates the same or similar ability it's all of a sudden invalid.. I don't see how it's fair for you to hold a double standard. Jiren and Goku adapted to Hit's powers, but yet Asura's adaptation isn't good enough? For what reason? Is there an extra detail you're leaving out? If not I don't see need for the refutation of clear feats.
I'll use dragon ball examples to give you an idea of why your definition of adaptation is different from mine. From what I can tell from the feats you shown, your definition of adaptation is basically a zenkai boost. My definition of adaptation is memorizing the timing of attacks, reading someone's muscle movements and using that slight twitch to predict what your opponent is going to do next.
Growing faster and stronger(for example, Asura suddenly keeping up with Vartin) is not the same thing as finding a way to adjust to someone faster than you naturally without actually having to be as fast.(Hit memorizing the timing of Jiren's counters) Asura has literally no skill or analytical feats on the level of precision of Goku reading a slight twitch(allowing him to predict EXACTLY where Hit would appear, then proceeding to react and predict several attacks and moves in a high speed battle)
So essentially, they're pretty much equivalent in terms of how to acquire it, as Mantra is spirituality from someone. It can come as souls or come as prayers from the religious, but they're both closely connected. Asura in episode 1 displayed the ability to passively absorb Mantra from Mithra's prayers, which allowed him to garner enough energy to power up and defeat Gohma Vlitra:
As you can clearly see, Asura was KO'd and knocked unconscious when Vlitra's beams exploded on him, but when Mithra prayed for him and Yasha he powered up and grew extra arms, meaning he didn't need awareness or consciousness to absorb the mantra generated from her prayers when Mithra prayed for him. So we can use the fact he can passively absorb Mantra from prayers and conclude him being able to passively absorb souls once he gains the Mantra reactor, because the Mantra reactor has several soul sucking feats and stored trillions of them over a long period of time.
Uh it seems like the souls were transferred to his body directly? How exactly does it prove anything? Sure we see the mantra flowing through his body, but I don't think that's enough to say he'd automatically rip Hit's soul. Is there any other lore or evidence backing him ripping souls passively or absorbing them passively?
I simply just think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence backing up Asura being able to soul rip whether passively or not
Him ripping souls isn't the issue,(because I don't think he'd do it in character anyway) the issue is him doing it passively.
@deathhero61: Are those the only things you had a problem with? If so, I can counter in our pm and we can compromise until we manage to agree on something, rather than clog the thread. No hassle at all.
He basically proved Hit has no advantage. None. Asura can counter time skip, phasing, has a MASSIVE speed advantage, can potentially one shot Hit, could take any punishment hit can dish out, etc. Death hero also seemed to give up at the third post. Vulcan's skill in debating and abusing any advantages he had (which were almost all of them) gets him a vote.
Off topic, but did anyone else hear Vulcan as a brute and Death hero as a scientist while reading through the debate?
Okay so after reading through this several times I believe that God_Vulcan takes this. Coming out of it I think he established three major factors that convinced me that Asura would win this:
He is much more powerful in terms of physical stats and characteristics
He has the means to counter most of Hit's Arsenal and Asura has the endurance and wherewithal to withstand Hits versatile abilities.
also the mindset to attack hit with everything he has from the very start of the battle.
That 3rd point was the most important to me. Because from what I have seen from Dragon Ball characters they tend to hold back at the beginning of fights and not really go all out. Not saying this about Hit himself, but most, if not all of the opponents he has been shown to go up against have. And God_Vulcan, perhaps channeling Asura himself went all out from the very start, pressing the fact that Asura does not mess around. But honestly near the end of it, this felt like a bit of an unfair matchup given the amount of clear-cut and quantifiable feats from both characters.
But that is besides that point. Both of you did an amazing job with what you had. When it came to the meat of the debate itself, it felt as if DeathHero suffered from some misunderstood context and knowledge about the series and Asura's feats, which ended up hurting some of his arguments. However that didn't stop him from pushing GV's own arguments and claims and forcing him to bring out everything to prove his points. Something I felt was brought up but DH could have pushed a bit more were adapting and Hit's spatial attacks. I understand you argued for them, but I feel that maybe if you pressed Hit being an assassin and having knowledge of bodily composition could have adapted a strategy for hitting with Hit's spatial abilities on Asura's nerves and or crucial body parts that he needs to survive or at the very least move.(Don't jump on me for this though I know nothing about Asura and everything I have stemmed from this debate) IMHO if that was pressed upon that would have swayed my opinion more to Hit's side and forced GV on the defensive.
As for God_Vulcan I was sold on pretty much everything you put out aside from the Soul manipulation. DH pointed out that it doesn't seem like something he would do in a normal in-character fight, and unless I missed something you didn't show much of Asura actively using Soul Manipulation himself. However that was beside the overall point as Asura still overall won the battle for me due to his insane physicality and energy projection. I do feel you could have taken more of an aggressive approach on skill however by expanding upon his fight with Akuma and how Asura incorporates his strength with his attacks and how he seemingly hits vital areas when fighting his opponents. But like I said this was a very great debate and each area was very close to me when it came down to it. At the end of it all though I have to give my vote to God_Vulcan in an awesome and entertaining CAV
@god_vulcan: @deathhero61: First of all, great CaV. I've read many different, but IMO this was one of the best.
Going for the result though, I give my vote to God_Vulcan.
Whilst Hit has very specialized abilities, Asura has every physical advantage over him. That stacks the cards already against him, since it is hard to nearly impossible to hurt someone over your own paygrade, whilst Asura can end it with a few hits. Normally the time skip would be a big ace in the hole, but as God_Vulcan proved, Hit is not fighting a brick, but a fast, tanky and and for this instances hax-countering brick. Now with Asura being faster,stronger and having the possibility to hardcounter everything that is thrown his way, it is impossible for Hit to win.
All in all, a great discussion/representation of your respective characters.
Voting for @god_vulcan, he proved without a doubt Asura's vastly superior physicals and the biggest takeaway for me from here, Asura's hax resistance which counters many of Hit's main abilities. This was a side of Asura I knew nothing about, so props for showing this side of the character to the community at large. @deathhero61 never really got off the defensive and he seemed to be clearly struggling towards the end to prove Hit can actually do any serious damage to Asura. Great job on arguing time skip and why Asura is not as equipped as the likes of Goku and Dyspo to deal with it though. I feel DH would have had a chance if he focused more on things like nerve attacks, etc to counter Asura's ridiculous raw durability.
Great job both of yoy, I think this was the first full fledged CaV featuring either of these characters, and honestly its one of the best teambuster level CaV's I've read here in a while. Hoping to see both of these characters in more CaV's in the future.
@god_vulcan: No problem. The entire time after reading this CaV I've been trying to think of cool matchups for Asura. You should totally do more with him in the near future.
@shirso: Asura is mainly a brick bar soul manipulation that he never uses (similar to Toriko in that regard) but he has a plethora of feats to use. If you want to find a good matchup for him, it would be dependent on the version.
Vajra Asura through Beserker are planet lvl and around LS, so high tier or low herald. Mantra Asura is Large Planet lvl and decently FTL so I'd place him at upper herald lvl to low teambuster. Destructor Asura is a casual multi-star system buster who's tens of billions of times FTL with hax resistance, so at that point he'd wreck most teambusters easily and thus should be low skyfather. EOS Asura is even stronger considering he has all of that in addition to broken NLF Adaptive Evolution.
@shirso: Nah, many people think Beerus stomps Dark Schneider. There's too much controversy surrounding DBS top tiers to make civil battles threads with them. The only reason why I even accepted this CaV in particular was because it's against Deathhero, and he's one of the last remaining Veteran viners who's opinions on DB I trust and respect enough to debate. The other ones that come to mind are guys like EmperorThanos and MajinBlackheart.
Hit vs Asura was SOMEWHAT debatable.(I kind of wish I used Goku now, considering the numerous amount of feats he now has for himself along with having more options.) Beerus vs Asura IMO would be him arguing against annoying energy projection that's far superior to his along with Hakai. Speed would still be cancer if it was Composite Asura but it wouldn't be an argument of majorly blitzing. I think Beerus wins that comfortably like he would against Current Goku or characters of his tier. There's a reason why he's paired up against Thanos and Odin.
@deathhero61: Composite Asura by feats shown honestly would wreck Thanos, unless we use the TP argument. But yeah, Beerus would be a lot more monotonous, due to the similar power sets of the characters.
@deathhero61: Composite Asura by feats shown honestly would wreck Thanos, unless we use the TP argument. But yeah, Beerus would be a lot more monotonous, due to the similar power sets of the characters.
@god_vulcan: I'll vote later, but could you link me some of your other CaVs? I'd like to have a read, to reflect on what I could do better in the future. Thanks.
@god_vulcan: I'll vote later, but could you link me some of your other CaVs? I'd like to have a read, to reflect on what I could do better in the future. Thanks.
Rather than say who my vote was at the end like I normally do, I'll cut to the chase then give my reasons. My vote goes to @god_vulcan despite a commendable performance from @deathhero61. Vulcan proved Asura had vastly superior physicals, speed and raw power over Hit which would make a close quarters confrontation fight dangerous for Hit. And since that's his main fighting style, Hit should be way outclassed in the stats department. DH had the right idea focusing his argument around Hit's hax and versatility and provided a solid argument for Hit's Time Skip and dimension hopping. Which I thought was the right way to debate a character like Hit in this matchup. However, when it came to countering opposition points, Vulcan had the upper hand most of the time compared to DH's counter posts. His knowledge of both DBS and Asura's Wrath made for stronger rebuttals on Asura's hax resistance to time manipulation and pointing out how raw power can overcome the Time Skip whereas DH occasionally had faulty responses in his counters. Still, I would say DH convinced me that Vulcan's passive soul mantra argument wasn't a factor in battle more than Vulcan claimed it would be, as well as point out that Time Skip would work initially on Asura. Unfortunately, he was unable to compensate for the raw power gap between the two characters. A pretty good debate from both sides.
@lvenger: Sorry for the late response, I'm just now seeing this for the first time. Thank you so much for the vote and the explanation. Also, you're the second person to mention my soul argument:
I would say DH convinced me that Vulcan's passive soul mantra argument wasn't a factor in battle more than Vulcan claimed it would be
Were my statements concerning the soul manipulation not convincing? I tried to paragraph/scan dump both times I brought it up, but DH managed to undermine that with well placed and critical questions. Do you think my rebuttal for it wasn't strong enough?
- No users with under 500 posts can vote (we may allow exceptions if there should be)
- All votes are required to have 1 paragraph to be counted. That's minimum 3 decent length sentences
And then the basic ones like no voting twice, changing votes, etc. But other than that go nuts, but don't procrastinate. We'll only keep this open for 2 weeks or if there's a gap (which I doubt will happen).
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