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#1 Edited by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Gather 'round ladies and gents, and place your bets! The match is about to begin!

@higorm will be debating for Azrael (feats for multiple variations of his armor will apply, due to general lack of showings)

I, Kaang, will be debating for Cardiac (armed with power staff, but no flight attachment)

Let's say Azrael starts at A, Cardiac start at B. All the cars are still on the road but civilians have scattered. Win by KO, death, submission, etc. Both of them are in character. Random encounter, no prep.
Let's say Azrael starts at A, Cardiac start at B. All the cars are still on the road but civilians have scattered. Win by KO, death, submission, etc. Both of them are in character. Random encounter, no prep.

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#2 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Since I made the OP, I'll wait for @higorm to agree on whether or not it's balanced, and he can make the opening post.

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#3 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: In character, random encounter, no prep, etc..

Other than that it's fine.

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#4 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: just a quick character presentation..

Azrael

[ Origin ]

Jean Paul Valley was a university graduate student of computer science in Gotham City, living unaware that he is the latest in a line of a legacy-type agent for the Order of Saint Dumas. For most of his life, he has been brainwashed with The System, a deep level of psychological conditioning. Valley only learns of this upon the death of his father, who was also his predecessor, at which time his conditioning is activated and he is called upon to take up the mantle of Azrael. So Jean Paul Valley was trained to become Azrael, the executor of a secret society, coached to believe he is the Biblical angel of vengeance as was his father before him.

[ Physical Stats ]

JPV is a test tube baby, whose genes were combined with animal ones, to ensure better skills. Moreover, his extraordinary abilities come from severe amounts of subconscious training and conditioning he was put through during his youth. So as a result of genetic engineering, he has greater physical stats than a normal peak level human.

Strength

Jean-Paul has enhanced physical strength, superior to that of a peak human as Batman, and comparable to Deathstroke. Jean-Paul has been seen training with a one-handed 600 pound bench press; additionally, he is known to hurl large stones, steel altars, and other heavy objects estimated to weigh one or two tons. Right at the end of his solo series, his strength, speed and reflexes went into meta human levels and he no longer needed his costume to access "The System." At this time, he is able to lift tree trunks and large boulders weighing an estimated 7-8 tons.

Durability

Using his suit, Azrael already manage to take and survive to bullets and explosions. Also survived 100 foot falls from cliffs into the water. Most of his adversaries in his series were regularly people packing super human strength, so he is a character who is used to take great amounts of punishment.

[ Skills ]

Speed, reflexes, dexterity, agility.

The skills granted to him by "The System" are considerable, giving him access to acrobatic and martial arts skill rare for the most seasoned athlete. This makes him a highly skilled combatant. In addition to these talents, his skills were honed by training with Bruce Wayne and thus possibly as skilled as Batman, although his lack of experience and finesse would make him technically the weaker of the two.

[ Gear / Equipment ]

Flaming sword, gauntlets, retractable flame daggers and armor.

Azrael owned a flaming sword, but his usual weapon of choice are the retractable flaming Bundi Daggers, which are housed in the forearms of his gauntlets. Independantly fueled and made from high tech alloys of the Orders invention, they are sharp and immune to ordinary wear.

The costume Azrael wears was designed by Nomoz after his failed first tussel with Batman. Incorporating the advanced Order technology that created the silent hovercraft, the universal solvent, and the Azraels themselves, Nomoz crafted a fireproof and bulletproof fabric that resembles a weave of Kevlar and Nomex materials.

[ Fighting Skill ]

As stated before, Azrael is a very capable fighter. His extensive training over the Order of Saint Dumas and Batman, along with his superior stats and gear makes him a very dangerous enemy. With this he was able to defeat the likes of Bane and Batman, and take on Deathstroke.

In resume:

I believe JPV possess what it takes in physicals, skill and gear to not only stand up for his enemy but actually win this fight, considering everything I've just pointed above.

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#7 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet. I'll have a post for Cardiac up later tonight.

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#8 Edited by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

Cardiac

Bio/powers:
I see no point in typing out a paragraph when I can just show his handbook page instead.

No Caption Provided

I also have a pretty large folder full of Cardiac scans. I'll select a few of them to showcase his capabilities.

Strength

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1: Hits hard enough to hurt Spider-Man. 2: Gets in a power struggle with Spider-Man over his staff. The staff breaks. 3: Spider-Man tries to use a web to rip his staff out of his grip. He can't.

For the record, his handbook description, like many handbook descriptions, is inaccurate. I really wouldn't put him at the 15 ton level. Spider-Man is a 10 tonner when he's not pissed off, and I don't think Cardiac is quite on Spidey's level. Based on his feats, I'd place his strength somewhere between 5 or 10 tons.

Speed/agility

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1: Dodges close range gunfire. 2: Cool pole-vault over a car. 3: Dodges a webshot from Spider-Man.

Durability

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1: Small caliber bullets bounce off his armor. 2: Still conscious after being blindsided by Rhino. Granted, he wasn't in good shape for the rest of the scene, but the fact that he was still able to function after that hit is a pretty good feat. 3: Spider-Man slams him into a wall hard enough to leave an impression, and expects him to be too dazed to be able to strike back immediately. He's wrong.

Power staff

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1: Shoots through a brick wall. 2-3: One blast from the staff makes Scorpion's tail go haywire. Side note: Scorpion's jobber aura is over 9000 lol. 4-5: Powerful enough to break through the bottom of a ship if given some time to charge up.

Additional notes

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1: Skilled enough to take down Chance in mid-air by throwing his staff. 2: Quick enough to trip up Rhino by hooking the staff between his legs. 3: He can also release his energy blasts from his hands if he doesn't have his staff. However, he has admitted that his blasts are less powerful without his staff.

In summary:

Cardiac's main advantages are his strength, durability, and long-range attacks. Azrael is around the 2-5 ton level, while Cardiac is more of a 5-10 tonner, and has managed to trade a few blows with guys like Spider-Man and Scorpion.
I don't know a lot about Azrael, but I'm anticipating having to admit that he has the advantage in speed/agility and fighting skill. Cardiac isn't a martial artist at all, and his best speed and agility feats only put him around Olympic level.
So what this really comes down to is speed vs strength. Jean-Paul is much more skilled, and is likely faster and more agile. Elias is a bit stronger, is very durable, and can deal out more damage long-range.

I'm really curious about the capabilities of Azrael's armor and weapons. How durable does his armor make him, and how good are the flaming sword and bundi daggers?

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#9 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: Just a clarification, about Azrael's strength, as you said:

Azrael is around the 2-5 ton level, while Cardiac is more of a 5-10 tonner

Strength

Right at the end of his solo series, his strength went into meta human levels and he no longer needed his costume to access "The System." At this time, he is able to lift tree trunks and large boulders weighing an estimated 7-8 tons.

Feats:

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So, while I agree with Cardiac's strength superiority, Azrael is also known for his physicals, and considering those feats, he shouldn't be that far behind his enemy here, not enough gap to place Elias in a comfortable advantage.

I'm really curious about the capabilities of Azrael's armor and weapons. How durable does his armor make him, and how good are the flaming sword and bundi daggers?

Durability

Using his suit, Azrael already manage to take and survive to bullets and explosions. Also survived 100 foot falls from cliffs into the water. Most of his adversaries in his series were regularly people packing super human strength, so he is a character who is used to take great amounts of punishment.

Feats:

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Gear

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#10 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

All right, so it would seem that our characters are rather similar in several ways, but there are definitely some advantages to be made note of.

Strength

Those were some good feats for Azrael. Cardiac still has a strength advantage, but it is not huge.

Durability

Despite the impressiveness of some of Azrael's feats, I'm still inclined to give this advantage to Cardiac. He's been hit with some pretty serious stuff by Spider-Man, Rhino, and Scorpion (all of whom are stronger than him, and two of whom have no reason to ever hold back) without being taken down. He's really good at taking hits and still going strong.

Speed/agility

I'd say they're roughly equal in this area, with Azrael maybe getting a small majority just because he tends to actually utilize his agility a bit more often in his fighting style.

Skill

This is one area where I'll have to admit that Jean-Paul has the advantage. He was, after all, a temporary Batman.

Long range attacks

Major advantage to Cardiac here. Azrael's only ranged attack seems to be launching one of those flaming knives in his forearms. To be fair, it was powerful enough to slice through a tree, but that showing is still small beans compared to Cardiac's power blasts. And if Cardiac can avoid bullets (which I've shown he can) I don't think he has much to worry from a projectile blade.

Close range weapons

Flaming knives vs bo staff. Small advantage to Azrael. Spider-Man was able to break Cardiac's staff, so it seems reasonable that a knife that can cut a tree could also cut the staff if given a good chance to apply pressure.

So in the end, it really boils down to strength/durability and long range attacks vs skill and close range weapons.
If Azrael is to beat Cardiac, he'll have two challenges to overcome. 1: close the gap between them without getting tagged by energy blasts. And 2: land enough hits in close range to beat a guy who is stronger and more durable than himself.

From Cardiac's perspective, he has to either blast his opponent away before he can close the gap,.or land enough hits in close range to beat a guy with more skill than himself.

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In the case of the first scenario, these scans showcase Cardiac's accuracy with his staff.
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In the case of the second scenario, these scans showcase Cardiac's ability to slug it out in close range. Both Spider-Man and Scorpion are, due to powers, much faster than he is, and Spider-Man is more skilled and experienced.
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#11 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher:

Strength

Those were some good feats for Azrael. Cardiac still has a strength advantage, but it is not huge.

Agreed.

Durability

Despite the impressiveness of some of Azrael's feats, I'm still inclined to give this advantage to Cardiac. He's been hit with some pretty serious stuff by Spider-Man, Rhino, and Scorpion (all of whom are stronger than him, and two of whom have no reason to ever hold back) without being taken down. He's really good at taking hits and still going strong.

Once again I can't really argue against it. It's pretty clear that Cardiac's armor is superior to Azrael's in terms of durability, especially considering his Vibranium Mesh Skin. Although I must say that Jean Paul doesn't rely on his suit as much as Elias IMHO. Not to mention that blunt force damage isn't a way Azrael would choose to put him down, he's smart enough to realize that, the flaming blade combined with his strength should be enough to pierce through his durability.

Speed/agility

I'd say they're roughly equal in this area, with Azrael maybe getting a small majority just because he tends to actually utilize his agility a bit more often in his fighting style.

Ok, moving on..

Skill

This is one area where I'll have to admit that Jean-Paul has the advantage. He was, after all, a temporary Batman.

Once again, there is nothing to discuss here.

Long range attacks

Major advantage to Cardiac here. Azrael's only ranged attack seems to be launching one of those flaming knives in his forearms. To be fair, it was powerful enough to slice through a tree, but that showing is still small beans compared to Cardiac's power blasts. And if Cardiac can avoid bullets (which I've shown he can) I don't think he has much to worry from a projectile blade.

Well, yes, the advantage is quite clear, but nothing abyssal, I mean, since I'm using composite feats, it's time to present you a capability of Azrael gauntles, which consist in long range attack. It's called "Angel's wrath", which consists in a blast he projects from his gauntlets that are able to disrupt human's central nervous system through a magnetic mechanism. Check this out:

.

No Caption Provided

So, JPV can use this to neutralize the strike coming from his enemy or as a surprise attack since it's a random encounter and Cardiac has no clue of it's capabilities.

Close range weapons

Flaming knives vs bo-staff. Small advantage to Azrael. Spider-Man was able to break Cardiac's staff, so it seems reasonable that a knife that can cut a tree could also cut the staff if given a good chance to apply pressure.

Yeah, I believe this would be a major problem for Cardiac if Azrael manage to close the gap to cut his staff. From this point I don't think he'd have many options avaiable to keep standing up to JPV fighting prowess. I guess this will be a key factor to determinate the winner.

So in the end, it really boils down to strength/durability and long range attacks vs skill and close range weapons.

That's for sure.

Azrael's Challenges

If Azrael is to beat Cardiac, he'll have two challenges to overcome. 1: close the gap between them without getting tagged by energy blasts. And 2: land enough hits in close range to beat a guy who is stronger and more durable than himself.

From Cardiac's perspective, he has to either blast his opponent away before he can close the gap,.or land enough hits in close range to beat a guy with more skill than himself.

  1. Closing the gap:

I accept the fact that he is fast enough, agile and etc but I don't see he being that much fast, not enough to put him above Azrael. Even if he was close, it's not by much, considering Azrael is a guy who is often seen fighting quite fast and agile enemies as well, like Batman for example. Dealing with that kind of threats isn't new for him, it's something he is used to. As said before, he is a bullet-timer, being able to dodge gunfire, block and even catch projectiles from respected marksman characters such as Huntress. Next scans proves what I've just said:

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2. Close range hits

I'd say that once in close range, the fight would turn to Azrael's favor, no matter how durable Cardiac is. Being more skilled by a considerable margin, I doubt he could manage to tag JPV unless he wants to. This is a guy who beat the batman and stalemated Deathstroke, I mean, this is more than enough to corroborate my statement. It would be just a matter of time really..

His fight against Bane can illustrate what I'm trying to say here. Keep im mind that he wasn't using his blades against him, so you could imagine that fight not lasting that longer. Also note how much pain he manage to take, including falling from a cliff to quickly emerge afterwards.

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Now that brings me to some questions, like Cardiac's Weakness. I'd like to hear from you about this:

  • Reactor/Heart Failure: Elias' heart requires regular recharging to sustain his life. Over taxing the reactor, or going for long periods of time without recharging it, can prove fatal. (from marvel

Since Azrael can provide him a good and long hard fight, also considering both of them are durable enough and can take a large amount of damage, it wouldn't be a matter of time until Cardiac start to over taxing and consequently losing the battle?

One last issue I'd like to bring to the table is:

Stealth

Honestly, this isn't an aspect Cardiac can rely on. Azrael has a clear advantage and will be able to successfully use said skill over him. Azrael received training from Batman, so it's safe to say he is pretty much covered in this department. Not to mention he was The Batman himself back in the Knightfall story arc. He is more than capable of disappear right in front of his eyes.

scan:

No Caption Provided

Elias has any sort of stealth feats? Either by avoiding it or using it to his advantage?

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#12 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Not to mention that blunt force damage isn't a way Azrael would choose to put him down, he's smart enough to realize that, the flaming blade combined with his strength should be enough to pierce through his durability.

From what little I've seen of him though, he seems to use his fists more often than he uses the flaming blades. It seems like a reasonable assumption to me that he would start out with his fists and move on to the blades only when he discovers that his opponent is even stronger and more durable than himself (after all, he starts out with no knowledge at all about Cardiac, and it doesn't seem altogether often that he meets an opponent whose strength and durability are too much for him to take with fists alone).

So, JPV can use this to neutralize the strike coming from his enemy or as a surprise attack since it's a random encounter and Cardiac has no clue of it's capabilities.

Neutralize the strike? IDK dude... I mean yeah, it seems like a decently powerful energy weapon and all, stunning non-powered humans. But if that's as powerful as it gets, then Cardiac's energy blasts outclass him significantly. The dude can shatter brick walls or punch through the hull of a boat if he gets a few seconds to charge up. I don't think the Angel's Wrath is powerful enough to stop Cardiac's beta blasts. Unless the Angel's Wrath has better feats than that, I'm still giving Cardiac a significant ranged advantage.
Also, the "surprise attack since it's a random encounter" argument cuts both ways. Just like Cardiac has no way of knowing Azrael can shoot energy blasts out of his hands, Azrael has no way of knowing Cardiac can shoot energy blasts out of his staff and hands.

Yeah, I believe this would be a major problem for Cardiac if Azrael manage to close the gap to cut his staff. From this point I don't think he'd have many options avaiable to keep standing up to JPV fighting prowess. I guess this will be a key factor to determinate the winner.

Don't get the idea that the staff is a weak little stick though. It was apparently sturdy enough to be wedged between Rhino's legs and trip him up mid-charge. I think the flaming blades may be capable of breaking it, but only in a direct clash with a lot of force being applied from both parties. A quick, glancing blow ain't gonna do it.
Also, in the event that Azrael does break his staff, it's very likely that Azrael will then assume that he's rid his opponent of both his staff and his energy blasts. I mean, it's just an energy blasting staff, kinda like Deathstroke's, right? Wrong. It's an energy-blasting guy who likes to use the staff to better channel the energy. I can totally see Azrael breaking the staff, then backing off a few feet, confident that his enemy can no longer touch him from a distance. Then he gets blindsided by an energy blast he didn't think was still possible.

Even if he was close, it's not by much, considering Azrael is a guy who is often seen fighting quite fast and agile enemies as well, like Batman for example. Dealing with that kind of threats isn't new for him, it's something he is used to.

If we're judging speed and agility by our characters' enemies, don't forget that Cardiac's most common opponents are Spider-Man and Scorpion, both of whom are superhuman in speed and agility.

Being more skilled by a considerable margin, I doubt he could manage to tag JPV unless he wants to. This is a guy who beat the batman and stalemated Deathstroke,

And Cardiac is a guy who beat Scorpion and stalemated Spider-Man.

If Cardiac can hit freaking Spider-Man in close range (which he has), he can hit Azrael.

  • Reactor/Heart Failure: Elias' heart requires regular recharging to sustain his life. Over taxing the reactor, or going for long periods of time without recharging it, can prove fatal. (from marvel

I don't want you to think I'm glossing over this issue entirely. I'm taking it into account. But I've never seen this become a factor in any of his fights. The Cardiac image folder I have contains probably like half of the on-panel fight scenes Cardiac has ever had (courtesy of @k4tzm4n for his delightful Cardiac respect thread), and none of these scenes give any mention to Cardiac's power levels dropping dangerously low.

Azrael received training from Batman, so it's safe to say he is pretty much covered in this department.

Disappearing from in front of a couple of cannon fodder dolts when there are deep shadows in the room is a decent stealth feat, but not exactly an insta-win against the guy who keeps pace with Spider-Man on a regular basis.

Furthermore, you've already showcased Azrael's long-range attacks and said he can use them to try to block Cardiac's beta blasts and tag Cardiac from a distance. But he can't fire off long-range energy blasts and be super-duper stealthy at the same time, so which is it? Would he try to go all gunslinger and trade energy blasts with Cardiac, or would he try to go all ninja and somehow close the gap without being spotted? He can't do both.

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#13 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by TheDandyMan (5175 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting please.

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#15 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttals

1.Fight Mode. Yes, that's correct. But the things is that he won't need much time to realize Cardiac's main attack, which is blasting his enemies with the staff. Like I said, he's smart enough to realize that Elias is quite dependent on his staff so it's a matter of time for him to neutralize it. Also, it's more likely for Azrael to surprise his enemy than the opposite, given that JPV doesn't depend only on his blades.

2.Ranged Strike. I didn't mean he would dispute which blast is the best, I meant he'd use said weapon to neutralize a possible strike coming from Cardiac. I'm aware that Cardiac's blast is the superior weapon, the thing is Azrael is fast enough to dodge it since he's a bullet timer and all. JPV won't use this tactic as the main resource, but only an option among others.

3. Surprise Attack. About the surprise attack, I agree it work both ways, but the advantage still goes to Azrael, since Cardiac doesn't have much options if he loses the staff, the same can't be said about his enemy. Azrael can use either his blades, fists, flame sword, etc..

4. Staff durability. No I didn't, I was more aiming for the lack of versatility from Cardiac's part. Since both fighters are quite a hard warriors, at some point Azrael would end up cutting his staff or neutralizing it some how. From this point forward, the fight would more likely favor him. Now considering Azrael break the weapon, the chance of him acting the way you mentioned is possible but I don't see it happening. I mean, JPV isn't the backing off type, he most likely would keep attacking him with everything he got. Not to mention that one blast from him won't be enough to put Azrael down for good, especially when we are talking about someone who survives explosions.

5.Agility/Speed. I'm aware of that. But, Azrael is not only agile but also skilled, much more skilled than Cardiac, and that makes a huge difference when it comes to battle situations.

If Cardiac can hit freaking Spider-Man in close range (which he has), he can hit Azrael.

Well, that it true but we also need to remember and consider his morals. Peter Parker, most of the time is portrayed holding on instead of going all out showing and giving everything he got. I don't know much about Scorpion but he doesn't seem to be skilled, not enough to place him on the same level of most of Azrael's foes.

6. Cardiac Weakness. Alright, fair enough, I'll take your word on this one.

7. Stealth. I was expecting an answer like this. That's why I can bring a major stealth feat from him, against none other than the master in the art of disappearance, the goddam Batman!

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"Where is he?" "He could be anywhere" - Not only Batman but also Nightwing and Robin were there and couldn't tell or see him disappearing either. Can you reall say he cannot do the same thing in this scenario?

Furthermore, you've already showcased Azrael's long-range attacks and said he can use them to try to block Cardiac's beta blasts and tag Cardiac from a distance. But he can't fire off long-range energy blasts and be super-duper stealthy at the same time, so which is it? Would he try to go all gunslinger and trade energy blasts with Cardiac, or would he try to go all ninja and somehow close the gap without being spotted? He can't do both.

No, Azrael's long-range attacks would only be used as an possible option, to neutralize his blats, not the ultimate answer for him. It would be a way to close the distance, where JPV is superior at H2H combat. He could use it to distract him and then use his stealth prowess to strike his enemy from the shadows for example. He would never trade blasts with him, that would be a stupid way of acting, and he packs no stupidity among his skill set.

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#16 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Yes, that's correct. But the things is that he won't need much time to realize Cardiac's main attack, which is blasting his enemies with the staff. Like I said, he's smart enough to realize that Elias is quite dependent on his staff so it's a matter of time for him to neutralize it. Also, it's more likely for Azrael to surprise his enemy than the opposite, given that JPV doesn't depend only on his blades.

And that's exactly where Azrael is going to get surprised too. Cardiac does indeed use his staff more than he uses other attack methods, but he is not at all dependent on it. And assuming that he is will leave Azrael open to being blasted when he thinks his enemy is helpless.

I didn't mean he would dispute which blast is the best, I meant he'd use said weapon to neutralize a possible strike coming from Cardiac. I'm aware that Cardiac's blast is the superior weapon, the thing is Azrael is fast enough to dodge it since he's a bullet timer and all. JPV won't use this tactic as the main resource, but only an option among others.

I guess we're on different pages about what "neutralize the strike" means then. Because it sounds like you're saying that Azrael could use his own energy blasts to stop Cardiac's blasts in mid-air if necessary. But, TBH, I don't see that as possible at all. To be able to stop Cardiac's blast, Azrael's blast would have to be somewhere close to a comparable power level, and I really don't think that it is.
And yes, Azrael is a bullet-timer, but so are Spider-Man and Scorpion (to an even greater degree) and Cardiac has handled them just fine.

About the surprise attack, I agree it work both ways, but the advantage still goes to Azrael, since Cardiac doesn't have much options if he loses the staff, the same can't be said about his enemy. Azrael can use either his blades, fists, flame sword, etc..

The only option that Cardiac loses is his ability to use a melee weapon. He still has his fists and his energy blasts. You're seeming to say that Azrael will have a lot more options that Cardiac will have if the surprise attack works, but the only difference at all between then will be that Azrael will have close range weapons and Cardiac won't. That is as far as the differences in their options go.

No I didn't, I was more aiming for the lack of versatility from Cardiac's part. Since both fighters are quite a hard warriors, at some point Azrael would end up cutting his staff or neutralizing it some how. From this point forward, the fight would more likely favor him. Now considering Azrael break the weapon, the chance of him acting the way you mentioned is possible but I don't see it happening. I mean, JPV isn't the backing off type, he most likely would keep attacking him with everything he got. Not to mention that one blast from him won't be enough to put Azrael down for good, especially when we are talking about someone who survives explosions.

Okay, so now we're saying that Azrael will break the staff.
I still don't see it that way though.
The only thing we've seen break the staff so far is Spider-Man's strength, and he's a casual 10-15 tonner. And if we want to look at durability feats for the staff, I've already pointed out it was capable of being wedged between the Rhino's legs (an 80+ tonner who can run 100+ mph) in mid-charge without being damaged at all.
You're also seeming to assume that in the event that Azrael is using his blades and Cardiac no longer has his staff, Cardiac will be vastly outmatched in melee combat. Don't forget that he's just as fast, he's stronger and more durable, and he consistently keeps pace with Spider-Man (a bullet-timer who makes other bullet-timers look slow). So even if Azrael doesn't back off willingly, it wouldn't be totally hard to believe that Cardiac could do something himself to put a few feet between them. Knockback kick, grab-and-throw, etc. At that point, Azrael, being an intelligent fighter, would hesitate for a moment. Why rush back in to close the gap as fast as he can? He's completely safe at a distance now. He can control the fight as he desires and doesn't have to get back in close before he's good and ready. Then BAM. Cardiac lets loose with a sucker-punch energy blast. And, true, one blast isn't powerful enough to put Azrael down. But taking him off-balance with a blast he doesn't see coming will give Cardiac openings to hit him more.

Well, that it true but we also need to remember and consider his morals. Peter Parker, most of the time is portrayed holding on instead of going all out showing and giving everything he got. I don't know much about Scorpion but he doesn't seem to be skilled, not enough to place him on the same level of most of Azrael's foes.

Yes, he does. Which is exactly why he tends to hold back his strength while using his speed and agility to their fullest potential. Spider-Man likes to be the guy who dances around the room untouched and then hits his enemies at his leisure. So since he tends to use his speed and agility to the max, its very impressive for someone else to be able to keep pace with him in combat.
Scorpion is not skilled at all, but his strength and speed surpass even Spider-Man's, and he doesn't hold back for any reason.

"Where is he?" "He could be anywhere" - Not only Batman but also Nightwing and Robin were there and couldn't tell or see him disappearing either. Can you reall say he cannot do the same thing in this scenario?

The only reason he was able to disappear so effectively is because he threw a giant distraction in their face. He threw a giant hunk of scrap metal, and Batman and Nightwing were forced to turn their attention to it to avoid being crushed. But if Azrael tries the same thing here, it won't be nearly as effective. Cardiac owns the game when it comes to long range here. If Azrael shoots an energy blast to try to distract Cardiac, Cardiac will just sidestep it and shoot a bigger one right back. If Azrael throws a motorcyle or something at Cardiac, Cardiac won't have to shift his focus to make sure he gets out of the way. He'll just swat it out of the air without batting an eye. There's nothing Azrael can throw at him from long range that will take all of Cardiac's attention.

Also, cars explode. So, even if Azrael does manage to hide, Cardiac always has the option of turning all the available cover into explosives. That usually works pretty well at drawing people out.

No, Azrael's long-range attacks would only be used as an possible option, to neutralize his blats, not the ultimate answer for him. It would be a way to close the distance, where JPV is superior at H2H combat. He could use it to distract him and then use his stealth prowess to strike his enemy from the shadows for example.

Yeah, but they'll make a terrible distraction if he's trying to use stealth too. Shooting an energy blast will just tell Cardiac exactly where he is.
Also, there's not a whole heck of a lot of shadows for Azrael to hide in this environment. Is he going to slip into an alley, hide behind a dumpster, and just wait for Cardiac to come to him?

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#17 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: No rush dude. I've got a kinda busy week myself.

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#19 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: Glad to hear that, gonna leave it for tomorrow then. Kinda of busy at the moment.

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#20 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher:

And that's exactly where Azrael is going to get surprised too. Cardiac does indeed use his staff more than he uses other attack methods, but he is not at all dependent on it. And assuming that he is will leave Azrael open to being blasted when he thinks his enemy is helpless.

That's true but, I still don't see Cardiac being able to do much without his staff. As you said, Elias has recognized that the hand blasts are not as powerfull as when he uses the staff, so for someone like Azrael with enough durabilty to sustain an explosion, even if he got hit, that won't mean much for him. So Cardiac will be the most affected by the surprise between the two, since JPV can either dodge, neutalize a less powerfull blast or even sustain it and keep fighting up close where he is far superior at close combat.

I guess we're on different pages about what "neutralize the strike" means then. Because it sounds like you're saying that Azrael could use his own energy blasts to stop Cardiac's blasts in mid-air if necessary. But, TBH, I don't see that as possible at all. To be able to stop Cardiac's blast, Azrael's blast would have to be somewhere close to a comparable power level, and I really don't think that it is.

And yes, Azrael is a bullet-timer, but so are Spider-Man and Scorpion (to an even greater degree) and Cardiac has handled them just fine.

Like I said, that would be one of the possible ways to neutralize him. Azrael has many other options. For exemple, throw heavy stuff on him, considering this scenario greatly favors this kind of tactic. Or he could use his sword to compromise it, just like he did before in one instance. The main goal would be close the distance between them, and considering his agility/speed that would not be too hard.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

He is strong and skilled enough to sucessfully perform those feats here against Cardiac.

The only option that Cardiac loses is his ability to use a melee weapon. He still has his fists and his energy blasts. You're seeming to say that Azrael will have a lot more options that Cardiac will have if the surprise attack works, but the only difference at all between then will be that Azrael will have close range weapons and Cardiac won't. That is as far as the differences in their options go.

Yes but, once unable to use his blast, the alternative will be fists, which according to you and Elias, less powerfull version in comparison to the staff. Azrael also has ranged attacks avaiable, not as standard but still possible, considering what the scenario provides to him, I can see him throwing something heavy but at the same time capable of flying at high speeds, like a manhole cover for example. I know that Cardiac can blast it off or dodge it like he did before against Spidey webs, but the purpose isn't hit him but distract for a aproximation. Azrael will still have the sword and blades at disposal.

scan:

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Okay, so now we're saying that Azrael will break the staff.

I still don't see it that way though.

The only thing we've seen break the staff so far is Spider-Man's strength, and he's a casual 10-15 tonner. And if we want to look at durability feats for the staff, I've already pointed out it was capable of being wedged between the Rhino's legs (an 80+ tonner who can run 100+ mph) in mid-charge without being damaged at all.

You're also seeming to assume that in the event that Azrael is using his blades and Cardiac no longer has his staff, Cardiac will be vastly outmatched in melee combat. Don't forget that he's just as fast, he's stronger and more durable, and he consistently keeps pace with Spider-Man (a bullet-timer who makes other bullet-timers look slow). So even if Azrael doesn't back off willingly, it wouldn't be totally hard to believe that Cardiac could do something himself to put a few feet between them. Knockback kick, grab-and-throw, etc. At that point, Azrael, being an intelligent fighter, would hesitate for a moment. Why rush back in to close the gap as fast as he can? He's completely safe at a distance now. He can control the fight as he desires and doesn't have to get back in close before he's good and ready. Then BAM. Cardiac lets loose with a sucker-punch energy blast. And, true, one blast isn't powerful enough to put Azrael down. But taking him off-balance with a blast he doesn't see coming will give Cardiac openings to hit him more.

Well, it's certainly possible. Azrael's blades are pretty effective, for example, he was able to easily cut a concrete bridge in two slices. See scan:

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No Caption Provided

When you have a combination of superhuman strength, at least 8 tons, with a bladed weapon, it's cutting capacity grows exponentially, especially when you have a skilled character using it.

I said that Cardiac will be vastly outmatched in melee combat because there's a clear skill gap between then. I agree with the other statements, comparable agility and speed, with he being stronger and more durable, and all that, but in the end of the day, what really decides the fight is skill. That's what's going to make the difference. As far as I'm concerned, Cardiac has never dealt with such skilled martial artists, who packs almost as much durability as he packs, at the same time being equally agile while using edged weapons, capable of easily slicing through big trees and concretes. When you add the skill factor, it's more likely to believe that Azrael will connect more hits, and not just that, he will connect the ones that really matters. The fatal ones.. Elias will be able to take and deliver some but he won't last standing in the end, he will fall eventually.

Yes, he does. Which is exactly why he tends to hold back his strength while using his speed and agility to their fullest potential. Spider-Man likes to be the guy who dances around the room untouched and then hits his enemies at his leisure. So since he tends to use his speed and agility to the max, its very impressive for someone else to be able to keep pace with him in combat.

I don't see that way. He holds everything, not just strength. Of course he tries to make sure to avoid most attacks, but saying he uses his full potential is too much, not in character. Also, I can see that in one of their fights, Peter wasn't aware of Cardiac's full capacity, when he said that he underestimate him..

The only reason he was able to disappear so effectively is because he threw a giant distraction in their face. He threw a giant hunk of scrap metal, and Batman and Nightwing were forced to turn their attention to it to avoid being crushed. But if Azrael tries the same thing here, it won't be nearly as effective. Cardiac owns the game when it comes to long range here. If Azrael shoots an energy blast to try to distract Cardiac, Cardiac will just sidestep it and shoot a bigger one right back. If Azrael throws a motorcyle or something at Cardiac, Cardiac won't have to shift his focus to make sure he gets out of the way. He'll just swat it out of the air without batting an eye. There's nothing Azrael can throw at him from long range that will take all of Cardiac's attention.

Also, cars explode. So, even if Azrael does manage to hide, Cardiac always has the option of turning all the available cover into explosives. That usually works pretty well at drawing people out.

Don't forget we are talking about Batman here, not a random foe. That's what makes a great stealth feat. There was 3 of them and just Azrael. He still manage to disappear right in front of them, inside the goddam Batcave!

If Batman wasn't able to detect JPV vanishing, what makes you think Cardiac would do any better? If Azrael throws a heavy object against him, he will have to deal with that, either by blasting it, or dodging it, doesn't matter, for a brief moment he'd have to draw his attention to it, he can't keep his always in two spots at the same time. A brief moment is all he needs to disappear. Once he does that, Cardiac will be in disadvantage. Considering he doesn't pack superhuman senses, there's no way he can assure the course of the battle. From ther it's all Azrael game to play.

Cars explode indeed, but there are not only cars avaiable for hiding, it's a fair large map with many options. If Elias start to explode everything, the way I see it, will only benefit JPV. He will be busy and distracted by the noise and everything while Azrael keeps track on him from distance, waiting for the perfect moment to strike him unnoticed.

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#21 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm Whoops. Sorry dude. I never got a notification for that post.

I'll try to reply later today.

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#22 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

That's true but, I still don't see Cardiac being able to do much without his staff. As you said, Elias has recognized that the hand blasts are not as powerfull as when he uses the staff, so for someone like Azrael with enough durabilty to sustain an explosion, even if he got hit, that won't mean much for him. So Cardiac will be the most affected by the surprise between the two, since JPV can either dodge, neutalize a less powerfull blast or even sustain it and keep fighting up close where he is far superior at close combat.

This is sort of a lot of conjecture here. The only reason we can know for sure that Cardiac's hand blasts are less powerful than his staff blasts is because he uses the staff on a very regular basis. We can assume there is a power difference, but we don't know to what degree. We do know (from a scan I've already provided) that his hand blasts are powerful enough to shatter a brick chimney. That's not much less powerful than regular showings from his staff. I'd be willing to wager that the power difference between his staff and hands is small at best.
And in terms of durability, surviving an explosion isn't even that impressive in the comic book world. There are tons of characters with no superhuman durability at all with similar feats. Surviving a nearby explosion and tanking a direct energy blast without being phased are two different things.

Like I said, that would be one of the possible ways to neutralize him.

...Not really.
I spent like a whole paragraph describing how I don't think that blocking blasts with other blasts would work for Azrael at all. I'm not going to agree that it's a possible way to neutralize him just because you've ignored where I said it won't work.
It's a somewhat minor part of the debate, to be fair, but I'm not about to give ground where it hasn't been earned.

Azrael has many other options. For exemple, throw heavy stuff on him, considering this scenario greatly favors this kind of tactic.

Yes, it does. And don't forget that Cardiac has the edge in both strength and durability. The "throwing heavy stuff" game isn't something Azrael wants to start.

Or he could use his sword to compromise it, just like he did before in one instance.

Azrael has used his sword to block energy strikes before? All I see is the one scan of him throwing his sword into the barrel of an energy-cannon-thing from a few feet away.

The main goal would be close the distance between them, and considering his agility/speed that would not be too hard.

He is a man of human speed and agility trying to close the distance between himself and a man who has tagged Scorpion (superhuman speed) and Spider-Man (superhuman speed, unparalelled agility, and a spider-sense).
It's going to be hard.

Yes but, once unable to use his blast, the alternative will be fists, which according to you and Elias, less powerfull version in comparison to the staff.

The best feats that Azrael's blades have, that I've seen, are cutting through a tree and a bridge. Even if the blades are made of a slightly better material, that really, really doesn't mean they're going to end up cutting through the staff.
To explain this, I'll use some real-world materials for reference. Let's say one fighter has a staff made out of stone and the other guy has a well-forged steel katana (capable, in tests, of breaking through concrete and small amounts of stone). Will the katana guy cut the staff guy's staff every time they fight? Absolutely not. A majority of the time? Still no.
For a blade to cut through something of a slightly inferior material would require one of those rare and unrealistic Star Wars moments where both fighters put every bit of their strength into one swing and they clash together and hold it while the music crescendos in the background and stuff. Those moves rarely happen outside of Star Wars, if at all. Real weapons fighting focuses more on hitting and blocking at angles to protect the integrity of one's own weapon rather than clashing head on with full force direct strikes. Honestly, since Azrael doesn't even know how strong Cardiac's staff is (and it's of a weaker material by only a slight margin, if anything) he'll be putting his own weapons at risk if he tries for full-force contact like that.

but in the end of the day, what really decides the fight is skill. That's what's going to make the difference.

Because you say so.

As far as I'm concerned, Cardiac has never dealt with such skilled martial artists,

Okay, and I've yet to see Azrael deal with anyone who even comes close to his own strength and durability levels, much less surpasses them.
Cardiac doesn't deal with martial artists, but Azrael doesn't deal with people who are stronger than he is.

When you add the skill factor, it's more likely to believe that Azrael will connect more hits, and not just that, he will connect the ones that really matters

I'm reminded of something Aquaman said to Gorilla Grodd in a recent fight. "I don't hit a hundred times a second like the Flash does. I just hit once... REALLY HARD!"
Azrael, due to his skill, may be capable of landing more hits, but he's fighting someone out of his weight class. Cardiac got blindsided by Rhino and didn't go down, and he hits hard enough to knock Spider-Man for a loop and keep the Scorpion on his toes.

I don't see that way. He holds everything, not just strength. Of course he tries to make sure to avoid most attacks, but saying he uses his full potential is too much, not in character.

Why the heck would Spider-Man hold back on speed and agility? That doesn't even make sense. He holds back his strength because he doesn't like to hurt people as much as is is able to. But his holds back his speed and agility... why? Because he likes getting hit sometimes? Why on earth would he not use his full potential in trying to avoid attacks?? The only people I can think of who don't do that are Moon Knight (with David Finch's crappy writing) and berserker healers like Wolverine.

Also, I can see that in one of their fights, Peter wasn't aware of Cardiac's full capacity, when he said that he underestimate him..

That was their first fight. But it wasn't the last time that Cardiac tagged him...

If Batman wasn't able to detect JPV vanishing, what makes you think Cardiac would do any better? If Azrael throws a heavy object against him, he will have to deal with that, either by blasting it, or dodging it, doesn't matter, for a brief moment he'd have to draw his attention to it, he can't keep his always in two spots at the same time. A brief moment is all he needs to disappear. Once he does that, Cardiac will be in disadvantage. Considering he doesn't pack superhuman senses, there's no way he can assure the course of the battle. From ther it's all Azrael game to play.

Cars explode indeed, but there are not only cars avaiable for hiding, it's a fair large map with many options. If Elias start to explode everything, the way I see it, will only benefit JPV. He will be busy and distracted by the noise and everything while Azrael keeps track on him from distance, waiting for the perfect moment to strike him unnoticed.

Okay, so Azrael has the potential to distract Cardiac for a split second and go stealthy (unless he goes with your other proposed options of trying to block energy blasts with his own energy blasts or throwing heavy objects, both of which would totally negate stealth and neither of which would end well for him). But what is he going to do then? Wait in one little secluded area and hope that Cardiac is an idiot who will just wander by sooner or later? That's why blowing up nearby cars would be a good idea for Cardiac. He's not about to get 'distracted' by his own explosions, but they will be pretty good at forcing Azrael to either face Cardiac or move somewhere else. Or is Azrael going to go on the move and try to slip from cover to cover without ever being seen and close the gap like a ninja? Because few people short of friggin Batman himself could pull that off in broad daylight against an opponent who isn't an idiot.

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#24 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: I Believe some valid points were presented from both parts. I don't really have anything new to address so if you agree we can call votes..

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#25 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@kaang_the_watcher: I Believe some valid points were presented from both parts. I don't really have anything new to address so if you agree we can call votes..

I'm fine with that

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#26 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: Feel free to edit the title to voting and call some people. I'll call some later..

It was a great debate, thanks for the opportunity :)

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#27 Posted by colliderz (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#28 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@kaang_the_watcher: Feel free to edit the title to voting and call some people. I'll call some later..

It was a great debate, thanks for the opportunity :)

Yeah dude. I had fun with this one. Great debate.

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#30 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't realize thread titles could be edited now...

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#33 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by TheDandyMan (5175 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, first vote of the match. Both of you had advantages over each other, I felt @higorm had better presentation and made good use of scans while @kaang_the_watcher was better in countering points. At the end of the day, I'll give it to higorm but, for someone with under 1000 posts, your argument was very good and, with more experience, you've got lots of potential kaang.

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#35 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how we bumped the thread, changed the title to include voting, tagged like 15 people, made announcements in two major PMs, and got 1 vote out of it.

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#36 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Kaang_the_Watcher (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I thought at least some people from our battle PMs would have cared enough to read. But I guess not.

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#38 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @kaang_the_watcher: sorry for the delay gentlemen. I have re-read and settled on a vote. I have to give this one to @higorm. Both contestants presented their case very well, and I was impressed by kaang. For a relatively new debater he did an exceptionally good job especially up against a veteran like higor. However, that veteran status really showed here on higor's behalf. His argument was overall more structurally sound, and his counterpoints were of a higher caliber. he convinced me that Azrael had the edge in multiple categories, especially durability. The balance of mass and significance was properly laid out with scan placement and the overall aesthetic of his posting structure was easier to follow and made the flow of his presentation much more convincing. Excellent job to both, well done....and extra kudos for using characters that are not highlighted every other battle.

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#39 Posted by senglord (2773 posts) - - Show Bio

Just chiming in with a vote for @higorm due to his better use of scans and arguments.

Kaang made the choice to lay out the advantages that each character had early in the CAV. This made @higorm able to focus mainly on Azrael's advantages with his scans, while making his advantages the turning points. It helped that he could establish Azrael as an enhanced bullet timer against a medium trained energy projector. The result was that Kaang had to establish either high level accuracy or high level speed and skill fears for Cardiac, which were far less plentiful.

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#40 Edited by Nathaniel_Adam (3703 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaang_the_watcher: @higorm: First of all You guys did a good job especially Kang as the new viner of you too @kaang_the_watcher brought some good points but relied on a few arguments in the battle which higorm countered very well and showed that they probably won't work or (not guarantee that Cardiac wins) and showed a logical way for Azrael to beat Cardiac @higorm gets my vote

I respect you for debating "unpopular chracters in the vine"

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#41 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @kaang_the_watcher: I am going to go against the grain here and vote for Kaang. Ultimately, this comes down to putting Cardiac down. His durability makes him difficult at best for Azrael to put down. Cardiac is not the greatest of fighters but he is competent enough to keep Azrael from scoring too many direct hits.