(If you choose you can decide to represent for example 2/3 character, and if still have space for a 3rd space, can have someone else represent the other character).
Standard Morals/In-Character (unless specified)
Standard gear (unless specified)
No prep (unless specified)
Win by KO, Death, Incapacitation
BFR is allowed, as a means of splitting up opponents, but not any way that would count as an Auto-Win.
Shared (Multiverse), powers can work from their respected universes, battle takes place on an (uninhabited Earth), but the battles can move from the location, if they choose an option that selects it etc.
No Soul manipulation
No Speed Stealing.
No reality warping.
No Time Manipulation.
All prep takes place on the battlefield unless otherwise specified
Cloning is limited to 5, and the clones have to be below the user itself.
Summons limit is 100. All summons working together should be able to hinder, but not easily defeat the opposing team. They cannot be amped either.
Characters cannot be amped beyond a 8 pointer
Nothing above the limits can be done with prep.
Anime/Manga characters are allowed composite feats
Auto Disqualification after 2 weeks.
Open to perk suggestions
Each character will be assessed before entering them, to make sure they are within the guide lines for a fair tourney.
Destructive Capacity (DC) Jupiter busting max
No Character in Thanos/Darkseid/Odin tier or above.
The character tier has to be below Skyfather, but meets the requirements.
Lifting Strength characters planetary+ tops, will be assessed case by case.
Striking power Large planet level
TK Limited to lifting and striking power.
NO HAX.
Speed limit is Picoseconds, anyone using a slight time ability has to fall within that range.
Durability Jupiter busting must KO
Energy manipulation is limited to Star level/nothing above PEAK Herald level, again case by case we can assess.
BFR is only allowed against clones and summons
Telepathy Limits are roughly Despero, J'onn, Nate Grey, again case by case.
Magic characters/powersets will be judged on a case by case basis.
Any additional perks you can think of, or adjustments don't feel shy to ask:
3 CHARACTERS MAX, LESS IF YOU DESIRE, IF YOU CHOOSE UNDER 3 CHARACTERS.
PERKS CANNOT CARRY OVER TO EACH SECTION
SECTION 1:
(Team) Perks Limit is 12:
Mind Link (2)
Choose Battlefield (3)
Technopathy immunity. (4)
Basic Knowledge (5)
Perfect team work (5)
3 Extra character points (5)
Speed Equalized (6)
Matter Manipulation Immunity (8)
Mind Attack/TP Immunity (8)
Magic resistance (8)
Morals Off (8)
Full Knowledge (8)
1 Hour of prep (8)
1 hour of prep anywhere (10)
Fusion of 2 characters. (12)
1 day of prep (12)
SECTION 2:
Your Team of up to 3 has a limit of 8 points.
FOR Single Character's Perk MAX limit is 8.
However if you have 2 Character's, the Maximum on 1 Character would be 8, with 6 other points, for the other Character - (POINTS DO NOT GET AWARDED TO THE WHOLE TEAM ONLY INDIVIDUALLY):
(Team) Perks limit 8:
Spider sense (1)
light saber (1)
Captain America's shield (1)
Flight Mach 5 (1)
Batman Martial arts (1)
Adamantium Skeleton (2)
Invisibility (2)
Mystique's Shape Shifting (2)
Night Crawler's Teleportation (3)
Shadowcat's Air Walking (4)
4 Senzu Beans (4)
Thing/Ben Grim coated Skin (4)
Reed's Stretching ability (5).
Wolverine' Healing (5)
Silver Surfer's Cosmic Awareness (6)
Reed Richard's Brain Power (6)
Pym Particles Permanent. (7)
Ironman's Extremis Armour (7)
Martian Manhunter's phasing ability(allowing his feats for your character) (7)
Sue Storm's Force Fields/manipulations of it. (7)
Telekenesis up to planetary - e.g. Jean/Exodus. (7)
Lightspeed(Superman level- travel, combat and reaction speed) (7)
1 injustice pill- Permanent. (8)
Ronan's Hammer's/Universal Weapon (8)
1 Lantern Ring on the Emotional Spectrum(herald limit) (8)
Be worthy of/wield Mjolnir (8)
IF YOU WANT TO FUSE 3 CHARACTERS WITHIN THE LIMIT, NO TEAM/PREP PERKS ALLOWED
Characters
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World Breaker Hulk
Kurse
America Chavez
Section 1 Perks:
Choose Battlefield. (3)
Full Knowledge. (8)
Round 2 perks:
Adamantium Skeletons for BOTH Kurse and America Chavez. (4)
Since I have the choose the battlefield perk I choose The Kryptonite room in the batcave.
Vegeta
I won’t really address Namek Vegeta since I think most people here will agree he’s completely outclassed in terms of power and speed. Nonetheless the team has full knowledge so they know he can’t breathe in space so they can easily either throw him into space or America can fly him there and get rid of him very easily.
Area
Since the Kryptonite Room contains Golden Kryptonite exposure to it should automatically cause H’el to lose his powers and Hank to lose his Kryptonian powers. While H’el does have an immunity to regular green kryptonite he got this immunity by being stabbed with a piece of it and then adapting to it.
He doesn’t have immunity to golden kryptonite and will never have the opportunity to develop it as the golden kryptonite will permanently remove his powers. So he will be turned into a normal human and will become irrelevant. Hank too will lose his kryptonian powers though he will still have his cyborg powers and the power of his lantern ring. But the green kryptonite will start weakening him and eventually kill him. Furthermore since the team has full knowledge they will attack him and stab him with the green kryptonite. The room is absolutely chock full of kryptonite so the team will have a lot to attack him with.
Yes Batman’s cave has a lot of technology so Hank could use this to attack the team but they have full knowledge so they should know to destroy nearby technology parts so Hank can’t use them against the team. Hulk as it is causes a lot of collateral damage so the bat cave will almost certainly be destroyed very quickly.
If not the entire planet.
The team also has full knowledge so they will easily know to destroy satellites and other things Hank can use against them.
How strong is the team
Each member of the team should be right at the absolute limit of power that is allowed in the tourney. All of them should scale to Quicksilver who has Picosecond reactions
and Gladiator who crossed several galaxies in the time it took Heimdall to blink
and had a full fight with Hyperion in a nanosecond.
So they should all be at the absolute maximum level of speed allowed in this tourney.
In terms of strength- WB Hulk scales far above regular hulk. Kurse is canonically 4 times as strong as Thor. America on the other hand was able to hold her own with though was ultimately defeated by Thanos- https://m.imgur.com/a/z7t3cSo So she should somewhat scale to him. Thus all 3 characters should be at the absolute limit of strength allowed in this tourney being very high end heralds if not low end teambusters. All 3 are also very skilled h2h fighters. So a nerfed Hank will have to singlehandedly fight off 3 characters who are at least as strong and fast as he is and are very skilled h2h fighters. And will have to do so under the effect of Kryptonite.
Universal weapon
Hank has a universal weapon. But Ronan’s weapon is pretty useless here. Thanos easily no-sold a surprise attack from it and broke it like a twig.
Compare that to the team who have all either fought Thanos or scale above characters who have.
Miscellaneous factors
But this is not all. Hulk as we know is almost impossible to kill being immortal. He can regenerate from decapitation or even being turned into a skeleton. The only way to really kill him is total annihilation. America also can use spatial portals to bfr people or cut them, ignoring durability. While Kurse doesn’t have the hax that others do he can sense and track people so the team will always know where Hank is.
America and Kurse also have adamantium skeletons which should greatly enhance their durability. And Captain America’s shield. Adamantium is simply too durable to be damaged by characters on the herald level- only characters far beyond the maximum allowed power of the tourney can damage adamantium.
And the last and perhaps most dangerous adavantage the team has- lightsabers. Lightsabers have been able to cut beings like the Ones and Abeloth. The battle between the son and the daughter threatened to destroy the entire galaxy. Since lightsabers have no mass being blades of plasma that means it isn’t the strength or energy of lightsaber wielder that damaged them but the pure cutting power of the lightsaber blade. Thus lightsabers should have no problem cutting through herald level characters or should I say herald level character since I think it would be very generous to call Namek Vegeta herald level and H’el will get turned into a normal human the instant the fight begins.
Conclusion
2 of my opponents characters are pretty much useless. The 3rd will be nerfed, at a massive disadvantage and up against 3 extremely skilled, powerful, haxed characters who’s stats are at the absolute limit allowed by the tourney (and arguably above that due to their adamantium skeletons and Hulk’s reactive power level) who know everything about him and how to counter his powers
"Life is an endless cycle of betrayal and murder and pain. I ended that hideous thing called life for so many when I destroyed Coast City."
Hank Henshaw: Cyborg Superman
Hank Henshaw, better known as Cyborg Superman, is a major DC villain who has faced Superman and the Green Lanterns on several occasions. Due a space experiment gone wrong Hank Henshaw and his fellow crew including his wife began to mutate and slowly deteriorate. To survive he saved his own conscious, put himself into a kryptonian birthing matrix and created a new body in the image of Superman. Hank blamed Superman for what happened to him and sought to kill him. Over the years Henshaw has possessed a major threat to Earth and the rest of the universe. He played a big part in the destruction of Coast City and also joined the Sinestro Corps during their war the Green Lanterns.
Cyborg Superman's abilities mostly stem from his body and the fact that he can essentially exist as an energy conscious without needing a body. This allows him to basically possess technology and become one with them and makes him almost impossible to kill. Physically he has been stated to be equal to Superman but he on top of that he has the added ability to control all tech.
"I was nearly killed on Earth.. But I wasn't, and so I grew stronger that I had ever dreamed!! That's why they call saiyans the warriors of the universe!!"
Vegeta The Prince of All Saiyans
Vegeta is the prince of all saiyans and Goku's eternal rival. Vegeta was originally a villain who came to Earth alongside Nappa in search of the dragon balls. After losing to the Z Fighters, he would go to Namek with the same goal in mind. However with the presence of Frieza and his army, Vegeta eventually decided to team up with Z Fighters, taking on the Ginyu Force and Frieza himself. While he died on Namek, he was eventually revived and came to Earth. He had child with Bulma and eventually married her.
Vegeta has since dedicated his life to becoming the strongest in the universe and surpassing Goku. But as he did that he would also protect his new home and family. He joined the Z Fighters and helped protect the universe against some of its greatest threats, such as Cell, Buu and most recently Moro. Vegeta's power is constantly growing and while he may never be the strongest in the DB universe you know he won't be too far behind.
"Do not attempt to escape or resist. Compared to me, you are a grain of sand challenging the raging sea."
H'el
H'el was a new Kryptonian villain introduced into the new 52. . He came to Earth 27 years after the destruction of Krypton in hopes to restore it on Earth. Because of this goal he came into battle against Superman and other heroes of the planet. H'el proved to be quite powerful, easily beating the man of steel and several others heroes. However Supergirl managed to hurt him by stabbing him with kryptonite.
After that H'el returned to the past where it is revealed to him that he infact is not a real kryptonian but an artificial being created out of many capsules with different things from Krypton. This knowledge changed H'el, making him angry and causing him to take over Krypton in the past. Causing him to once again come into contact with the Superman family who traveled back in time and successfully managed to beat him
Initial Counters
I won’t really address Namek Vegeta since I think most people here will agree he’s completely outclassed in terms of power and speed. Nonetheless the team has full knowledge so they know he can’t breathe in space so they can easily either throw him into space or America can fly him there and get rid of him very easily.
Hardly true, Vegeta's raw DC is basically at the limits with both scaling and feats. WBH's best DC feat is casually matched by a weaker Vegeta. But I'd first like to address your strat on dealing with him.
For starters, that is by definition BFR, which was stated in the rules is not allowed to be used as an auto win. As the battlefield is Batmans kryptonite room, you can't take him out of there and into space to win.
But more importantly, space won't kill the version of Vegeta I'm using. Because again in the rules it states anime/manga characters are composite. Meaning I get Vegeta with anime and other feats. And Anime Vegeta has had no issue surviving in space. As you can see in the below video, Vegeta has no issue being in space and flying across Celestial bodies. So taking him into space will do nothing.
Since the Kryptonite Room contains Golden Kryptonite exposure to it should automatically cause H’el to lose his powers and Hank to lose his Kryptonian powers. While H’el does have an immunity to regular green kryptonite he got this immunity by being stabbed with a piece of it and then adapting to it.
He doesn’t have immunity to golden kryptonite and will never have the opportunity to develop it as the golden kryptonite will permanently remove his powers. So he will be turned into a normal human and will become irrelevant. Hank too will lose his kryptonian powers though he will still have his cyborg powers and the power of his lantern ring. But the green kryptonite will start weakening him and eventually kill him. Furthermore since the team has full knowledge they will attack him and stab him with the green kryptonite. The room is absolutely chock full of kryptonite so the team will have a lot to attack him with.
The Kryptonite room is a good plan but also has flaws. H'el didn't adapt to anything. He simply isn't vulnerable to Kryptonite. It is revealed in the past when tests are done on him in Superman 23.3. It is specifically stated that all that the stabbing did was scar him. He was hurt by being stabbed but the Kryptonite itself didn't affect him since his body is full of radiation from his travels in space. See H'el is a real Kryptonite. He was created in space through radiation. He was originally just bunch of capsules with different things from Krypton's history. This is also why despite being on Krypton, H'el was still able to use his powers as he is not affected by the Red Sun as well as why he has so many powers that Kryptonians do not have. Jor-el explains everything in the scans below, and we can see H'el using his power on Krypton
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So really it doesn't matter what Kryptonite you have. H'el would be fine. While Henshaw's kryptonian powers would be affected, he still has his tech abilities and a bunch of lantern rings. So the affect on him won't be too bad given all the plethora of powers he would have in his possession.
Yes Batman’s cave has a lot of technology so Hank could use this to attack the team but they have full knowledge so they should know to destroy nearby technology parts so Hank can’t use them against the team. Hulk as it is causes a lot of collateral damage so the bat cave will almost certainly be destroyed very quickly.
I'm glad brought this up. Destroying everything in the lab is something my team could do too, including the kryptonite that would affect Hank. Hulk busting a planet is pretty good. But Vegeta has done that too, with significantly more ease. Here Vegeta casually busts a planet and its moon without even breaking a sweat. Also notice that he does in space again showing that in the anime he can survive in it. This Vegeta is also a good bit weaker than Vegeta in Namek. This is also a good speed feat for Vegeta's blast as it's able to quickly reach the planet forms seemingly beyond the moon, making it an FTL feat for the Saiyan and a casual one at that.
So they should all be at the absolute maximum level of speed allowed in this tourney.
So this is not how things work. You dont post three feats of two random characters and then say yeah my whole team is this fast. I'm all for scaling as long as you explain it. This is just random feats. Might work with someone who has never read a comic but that doesn't fly here on comicvine. You are going to have to go indepth and explain exactly how all your characters are exactly equal in speed to what is essentially the speedster of the universe. Even within that Storyline, Quicksilver seems to move too fast for Hulk to react or stop. Clearly showing they aren't on the same level. This is prior to quicksilver going all out and performing the picosecond feat.
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The Gladiator feats means nothing. He has good travel speed feats but his combat speed is grossly inconsistent. Yes he does that Nanosecond speed feat, but he also been caught by street levellers like Wolverine and Gambit. He clearly doesn't operate on that level of speed consistently. Simply put Gladiator is horrible character to scale off. When he only has one Nanosecond combat speed feat and several thats contradict it. One example being in Uncanny X-Men #277 where he considers Gambit to beat fast and gets tagged by his cards.
Furthermore with the first feat, Quicksilver only recently became picosecond. It was his first feat on this level for years. And he is a speedster of Marvel Earth. To suggest all your characters are equal to him is big claim to make since he only recently reached this level of speed. Especially given the fact that your characters have feats that suggest the contrary.
For example America Chavez was moving in slow motion to Monica Rambeau at Light Speed in Ultimates #2. Which clearly indicates that she is not even lightspeed. Oddly enough this seems to be her best combat speed feat. Its a clear indication of her speed which isn't even nanosecond timing. And From what I see she has never even interacted with Gladiator or Quicksilver.
As for the rest of your team, Hulk has never been fast, there are plenty of instances to show that. He has no great speed of his own and there quite examples of Hulk being slower than characters who are normally just bullet timers. The idea that he is even nanosecond speed is quite ridiculous. That applies to Thor the same, who has on panel been stated to be slower than someone like Spiderman or Wolverine. Probably the reason why you had to resort to using speed feats for completely unrelated characters despite Hulk himself having more appearances than my entire team combined. Hulk's speed is usually just blur speed or something around there. I figured I would provide atleast one example of him struggling against someone slower than Quicksilver in speed. In World War Hulk #1, Iron Man was able to blitz him. Now this is a weaker version of Hulk but given your scaling and the fact that WBH isn't any faster feat wise, it is reasonable. And not this is the same writer responsible for WBH. Clearly WBH's creator doesn't consider him to be fast.
In terms of strength- WB Hulk scales far above regular hulk. Kurse is canonically 4 times as strong as Thor. America on the other hand was able to hold her own with though was ultimately defeated by Thanos- https://m.imgur.com/a/z7t3cSo So she should somewhat scale to him. Thus all 3 characters should be at the absolute limit of strength allowed in this tourney being very high end heralds if not low end teambusters. All 3 are also very skilled h2h fighters. So a nerfed Hank will have to singlehandedly fight off 3 characters who are at least as strong and fast as he is and are very skilled h2h fighters. And will have to do so under the effect of Kryptonite.
This just like your speed section. You can't just say your characters are at the limits and leave it at that. This is a debate, you actually need to prove it. The only actual strength feat you have shown is WBH busting a planet. Which is his best feat. Your America feat makes no sense. She hits Thanos and then gets one shotted. What exactly is the feat here? She does no damage to him. You can't scale her of someone she does no damage to, that makes 0 sense. Thanos himself is at the Jupiter Busting level that this tourney is limited to. So being weaker than him doesn't make her close. You haven't even provided anything for Kurse. Your one Hulk feat is good but Vegeta's energy manip is honestly better. H'el himself has raw strength comparable to Hulk.
In Superman #17 Superman flies down after being knocked into orbit. He gathers momentum and then strikes H'el with enough force that the planet shook to it's core and could even be felt out in space in the JL tower. Note that the scientist lady specifically points out that he is outputting more power than previous recorded. H'el immediately after tanking such a strike hits Superman so hard that Superboy said he had never seen anyone hit so hard before. Meaning H'el hit Superman harder than Superman hit him.
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As seen the scans above the female scientist points out Superman outputted more than perviously recorded. Here is what she was referring to, in Superman #13, Superman benched press what was the equivalent of the Earth's entire weight for 5 days straight and only end up with single drop of sweat after it. So Superman's punch was outputting more power than when he was lifting here. And H'el punch was even stronger than that.
H'el is easily in the planet plus range in both striking strength as well as durability. While Vegeta doesn't have as good strength, his raw DC makes up for it. I already show him casually busting a planet and its moon. Another great feat he has is of firing an energy blast at Frieza capable of destroying Namek. Now Frieza manages to kick this away but we see how big the explosion of the blast is, dwarfing planet Namek. Frieza kicks it away simply due to being that strong but your characters are going to need feats to suggest they can do the same.
In terms of just durability Vegeta as child survived being inside a planet busting attack fired by his father. This is an insane durability feat for Vegeta and he did it as a child. More importantly adult Vegeta would be capable of similar raw power as he had explicitly surpassed his Father. Vegeta's raw DC is easily in the multi planet/Large planet busting range given feats and scaling. And his durability should be similar.
Henshaw has regularly displayed strength on the level of Superman and with the rings he is actually even stronger than him. Managing to go blow to blow with the Man of Steel and taking him out quite quickly in Tales of the Sinestro Crops: Cyborg Superman.(Scans are in reverse sorry.)
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Universal weapon. But Ronan’s weapon is pretty useless here. Thanos easily no-sold a surprise attack from it and broke it like a twig.
Compare that to the team who have all either fought Thanos or scale above characters who have.
This is well completely irrelevant. Hank isn't going to get a piece of tech and then throw it at someone. This Hank Henshaw, he is going to assimilate the tech into his own body, getting all the abilities it offers him. The durability of the weapon doesn't matter since Henshaw's durability is much greater and he is just taking the powers it offers.
And Henshaw himself is very durable. He tanked a blast hotter than the sun from Hal in Green Lantern #13. That blast was also capable of cracking the hull of a highmaster which in that very same issue is explicitly used to to survive a planet busting explosion.
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He also has regen. During Superman/Batman #5, he fought Doomsday for a bit and for the most part seemed to be able to tank this hits and when some damage was done to him he simply regenerated it back.
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In terms of what that gives him. Here is just a handful of abilities that the Universal Weapon comes with. One is matter manip. In Annihilation Ronan #1 we see Ronan use matter manip on an opponent's hand and turn into bomb. He was also able to this with ease and from a distance away.
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Another is gravity manipulation In fantastic four Vol 1 issue 54 we see him specifically increase the gravity on the thing to keep him. Thing describes this has the force of an entire planet crushing his back. Ronan did this casually too.
The matter manip is basically an insta kill. He can turn your characters into bombs and kill them. Unless of course they have matter manip resistances that you can provide. But even if one does, the others being turned into bombs could still hurt those who can resist it.
My Team
Since you started off with speed, I shall do the same. First off Vegeta. The earlier Light speed feat is when Piccolo was able to send a blast to the moon almost instantly. It takes about 1.3 seconds for light to reach the moon and Piccolo's blast seems to go there almost instantly. This is LS or around it for sure and this was just a normal blast. Raditz was able to dodge his charged special beam canon which surprised Piccolo so much that he even states that Raditz is faster than the speed of light. Which makes sense given the speed of his casual blasts. This shows both the speed and the power of people fodder to Namek Vegeta.
DBZ characters further exhibit faster light speed feats on Namek. First of all at this stage, characters moved fast enough to the point were sight simply wasn't good enough. Either you have scouters or can sense energy. Well here is an example of the Z fighters sensing beings moving at FTL speeds through space.
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Now this might not necessarily be light speed tracking since they just sensed them. However Vegeta who was stronger than rest was actually able to sense and keep track of these spaceships moving at high speeds to the point when he knew exactly when they landed on to the planet. This requires him to be able to keep track of FTL objects through sensing.
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Ki sensing is essentially how most fighters in Z track their opponents. tracking the energy allows them to keep track of them in combat. We see in the Saiyan saga that even fodder characters such as saibamen and Yamcha are able to move so fast that the only way to actually see them is by tracking their energy signatures. Ofcourse they still use their eyes as seen with the androids but this gives them an extra sense that is used more often. So much so that Gero points that out.
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H'el is extremely fast. One example is from Superman #14 where he was able to go and get Superboy from a distance away faster than Superman could even keep track off. Meaning H'el went got Superboy who was in the Atlantic ocean and back before Superman could even react to. This is far from the the only time we see H'el blitz Superman as you will see in later sections.
Anyway the reason being faster than Superman is so impressive is due Supermans impressive reaction/processing speed. In Superman #30 it was stated he could examine people's DNA in a nanosecond. Which he proceeded to do as it was quicker than being told what happened. So Superman can operate in nanoseconds.
Another reaction/procession speed that is atleast on this level comes in Action Comics #14. Here Superman was able to compile and calculate data that would take a supercomputer years to do. To take into account how impressive this is. The fastest super computer in the world which is the US Department of Energy Summit supercomputer can perform a trillion calculations in a second.
Cyborg Superman has shown speeds similar to Hal Jordan and Superman. Having no issue fighting either of them in the past. For example in Green Lantern #13 he managed to bull rush the Green Lantern after being blasted.
Under the same writer Hal Jordan has displayed FTL speed. In Green Lantern Rebirth #5 when Hal had a fight with Sinestro. The two of them fought across the moon all the way to Saturn in a couple of panels. It takes light a couple of minutes to cross that distance while they two of them fought all the way there in a couple of seconds at most. You can qutie clearly they are fighting on their way there, firing blasts and dodging attacks. Pretty clear cut FTL+ combat speed feat, which is where Henshaw's speed should be.
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Strategy
So this is just going to be inresponse to your plan. The basics of which is use the kryptonite on H'el and Henshaw while BFRing Vegeta. And I have gone into detail already on why that plan simply will not work against my characters for numerous reasons.
My plan involves a few steps. This first of which is having Henshaw absorb the Universal weapon into him, granting him all the abilities that come with it. Now given your battlefield choice, we can go a step further. Henshaw will take over the entire Batcave, giving him the abilities of all the tech present there. As seen in Superman/Batman #5, Henshaw can quickly take over an entire base.
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While he is doing this H'el and Vegeta will be more focused on your team. H'el can make things easier for Henshaw by simply holding your team together with TK. H'el was capable of telekinetically restraining Superman, WonderWoman a Superboy all at the same time in Superman #17. Superman himself has planetary strength in terms of lifting and so being able to restrain him alone is impresssive but he is restraining to other powerhouses as well. And he is doing with just one hand whilst talking to Kara.
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Superman's lifting strength has been shown above but another example of his great lifting comes in Action Comics #34 where he and Martian Manhunter lifted Braniac's spaceship which as you can see is dwarfing Earth. Yet he still wasn't strong enough to break out of H'els restraints.
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H'el's speed is honestly enough to do this. He just has to move his hands and can quickly do this. Your team isn't on his level speed wise but even if they were, they all need to come close to him before he can simply tk them right there.
The simplest method of taking the theme out once this is done, is Vegeta just using a powerful energy blast against your whole team while they are immobilized by H'el. I have shown a couple of feats to give you an idea of what Vegeta's raw power is. And he is not opposed to doing things like this as seen with Nappa.
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Now you team would have to tank a focused multi planet busting attack. I honestly don't think your team can but thats for you to prove. If you somehow do. Whoever in your team survives will now have to deal with Vegeta, H'el plus Henshaw who has overtaken the entire batcave that you placed him in.
And this team has plethora of hax to take them out with, when raw power fails. I already showed Henshaw's newly gained abilities from the Universal weapon. With matter manip he can turn your team in bombs and kill them like that. But Henshaw can also do something else, he can turn your team against each other by using Nanobots to control them. He showed this against Hal in Green Lantern #12, and while's Hal's abilities allowed him to destroy them, your team doesn't have that kind of preciseness. Regular TP manip also shouldn't really work as this is more technopathy.
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H'el and Vegeta can use TK to bypass their durability.. Vegeta did this against the Saibaman when he blew one up from the insides. Its a simple gesture that Vegeta does but it is very deadly.
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H'el can also use Telekenisis on a molecular level. This was seen in Superboy #14 where he first beat Superboy in a TK battle and then proceeded to rip him apart on a molecular level using telekinesis alone. This shows his precision with TK considering he can use at such a small level and how deadly his skill with it as he easily beats a TK user.
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And thats it. There's an initial strategy and should fail against even one of your characters, there is back up plan with Henshaw taking over their mind or either one of Vegeta and H'el taking them out with TK. This works mainly because my team has options from range that they can employ instantly. My team can match yours physically and in raw power but they also have a plethora of abilities on top of that to help them win this fight. They are all certainly faster than the Hulk. And should be faster than others given America was slow mo to someone looking at Light speed, and all you have said about Kurse is that he fights Thor. Who is historically one of the slowest characters in the Marvel universe.
Your kryptonite plan was good in theory but we have been told and shown that it doesn't work on H'el. And by bringing Henshaw to the Batcave, you have ended up giving him a whole lot of abilities that will compensate for his kryptonian abilities being weakened.
All the characters in my team are very high level as Marvel superheroes go. Even relatively weak Marvel characters have planet-level feats.
Look at Magneto and Cyclops, two characters who are considered quite weak in Marvel's power hierarchy- https://i.imgur.com/KqqCy5A.jpg https://i.imgur.com/m5Bb1TY.jpg https://imgur.com/a/W40zd#0
Characters like Magneto and Cyclops are weaker than characters like Iron Man and Captain Marvel let alone characters like Thor and Hulk.
Hulk was easily able to no-sell an attack from Cyclops
Magneto is no match for Thor who Kurse was stated to be 4 times as strong as
Kurse was also able to curbstomp Beta Ray Bill using only 50% of his full power
Beta Ray Bill can easily pulverize planets
no-sell the vaporisation of a planet
He even survives being rammed into a planet hard enough to vaporize it
He has even tanked a powerful blast from Galactus
A full power attack from BRB did no damage to Thanos whatsoever yet the same Thanos was vomitting Blood from one punch from America Chavez. That shows punches from America Chavez are on a completely different level to BRB. We already know that Kurse is on a completely different level to BRB. And BRB can effortlessly pulverize planets and no-sell planet-vaping attacks. Heck even a fodder like Cyclops can bust planets who isn't even a nuisance for Hulk, planet-busting is no big deal.
Heck even the silver surfer has never damaged Thanos as severely as America and he has fought Thanos several times and has several casual high end planet level showings- https://imgur.com/a/vajWTqj https://i.imgur.com/F2iAedg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7VV9jCO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gn5pgjd.jpg https://imgur.com/a/qlSKSWK https://i.imgur.com/8d05lvY.jpg https://imgur.com/a/SamIz2u https://i.imgur.com/55BxYcT.jpg
A weaker version of Hulk than WB Hulk has defeated the Silver Surfer so he scales far above this casual planet buster.
Even the so-called slowdinson Thor could react to quicksilver with his picosecond reactions
Kurse stomped Thor. Hulk has fought Thor many times and reacted to Thanos who has reacted to thor.
Heck Hulk has reacted to Quicksilver hismelf, grey hulk that too
The whole Blue Marvel incident was an attempt at hyping up America's speed by a writer who didn't understand Marvel powerscaling, it's similar to Galactus being said to punch with the force of a trillion supernovas when we know he's actually much more powerful than that.
Gladiator saw Heimdall galaxies away and then flew galaxy-lengths, it is a reaction/perception speed feat.
Beta Ray Bill and SS themselves can fight and react at MFTL speeds- Kurse has beaten BRB, Hulk has beaten SS and America has fought Thanos who scales FAR above them both and made him bleed.
Even Grey Hulk easily destroyed a meteor which was twice the size of Earth who WB Hulk scales far above. Base Hulk was also wrecked by Thanos multiple times who America was able to damage.
Captain Marvel was able to beat Grey Hulk but freely admits she's fodder to regular green hulk let alone Worldbreaker.
If Grey Hulk can do stuff like this imagine what my team can do.
Kurse has tanked mjolnir blows with no damage- Mjolnir blows can pulverize planets.
Mjolnir can fly around the galaxy in seconds and Thanos has reacted to it who America scales to.
They also all scale to Quicksilver with his picosecond reactions. Hulk directly, the rest indirectly.
Vegeta may be low level ftl and be able to destroy planets but even relatively weak marvel characters who can do that who my team scale way beyond. Mere planet level feats my cut it when fighting Cyclops and Mags but not my team ! He'll be a statue to my team.
Hax
Hax is banned in this tourney so I don't know why you're bringing this up. Nevermind that Hulk will be able to regen from pretty much all of your strategies. Adamantium cannot be damaged via AP, at least the amounts your team has so physical strikes are pretty much useless.
Batcave
The collateral damage created by Hulk's blows will destroy pretty much all of Gotham before Hank will be able to assimilate any of the tech. As you correctly said H'el was weakened by the kryptonite, he was affected by it but managed to adapt. He will not be able to adapt to golden kryptonite. You have yet to provide any pico-second level reaction feats for your team.
@drax5343: @emperorthanos-: Last round make it count, also @SirKaboom15: has forfeited so you won’t be facing Team Ultron, Super Skrull and Iceman; for whoever advances.
So the Bulk of your post is just explaining your full marvel scaling. You don't really address my arguments. But I will get into this scaling.
Part 1: Over the limits
Alright for this section I'm tagging @kingant27. Why because your scaling chain makes your characters above the limits. This is your scaling. Not mine. This is based of what you have been arguing.
And regardless of this ruling, this also shows just how flawed your scaling is. You can't say Miss America scales above Surfer for making Thanos bleed, while also ignoring what else failed to make him bleed. So unless you also believe she is above Odin, it is clear Miss America's Thanos showing just doesn't make sense to use here. Something is clearly inconsistent.
Miss America and Thanos
First is Miss America making Thanos bleed while Surfer and BRB didn't. Thus she is stonger than them. Well lets look at what else didn't make Thanos bleed.
First Thanos survives the explosion of a gas giant that was caused by the Fallen one. Note while his clothes are torn, Thanos himself is fine. A gas giant for those unware is planets like Saturn and Jupiter.
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But Miss America made him bleed thus by your own logic she is above Large Planet busting.
Infact lets take it a step further and show how Thanos took repeated blasts from Odin himself. Someone clearly stated to be above the limits, Thanos took multiple blasts from Odin and was not bleeding.
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By my opponents own scaling, Miss America would be above large planet level striking limit by virtue of making Thanos bleed while the large planet explosion didn't. And would above Odin himself.
Meaning at the level Miss America is being argued here she is above the limits. And thus should not be allowed.
Galaxy crossing speed
OK so you bring up two galaxy crossing speed. Well since we are going this route. Lets actually look at how fast crossing a galaxy is. The feat is basically crossing galaxy or galaxies in a few seconds. Going just by the size of our own galaxy you are looking at a feat thats about 3 trillion times faster than light. Note Galdiators feat is supposed to more than one galaxy I believe. For reference the rules of this tourney is just picosecond time. Which is around 3300 times faster than light.
So to make it clear, the speed limit is 3300 x FTL. My opponent is using feats that are 3,000,000,000,000 x FTL.
This is just a basic speed calculation. The numbers are rough but there is clear difference in whats being argued. Thus again my character has gone over the limits in speed too. Which actually makes all his characters over the limits.
I will now proceed with the debate. But I want this to be made clear. He brought up the Thanos feat, he brought up the galaxy speed feats. Now more than likely you were simply unware how fast and strong you were arguing your characters and thats fine. I made a similar mistake by bringing up hax that I shouldn't have. But for this debate to go on and follow the rules of the tourney, these kind of arguments cannot be allowed or let through. Because they very clearly above the limits and he has quite obviously scaled and argued his characters with and to these feats. I will leave it to @kingant27 to make a decision.
Now I will continue this because personally I don't actually agree with anything you have said.
Part 2: Analyzing the Scaling
All the characters in my team are very high level as Marvel superheroes go. Even relatively weak Marvel characters have planet-level feats.
You are going to have to prove that. I can agree with that statement for say Hulk. But Miss America clearly isn't that high up there.
Look at Magneto and Cyclops, two characters who are considered quite weak in Marvel's power hierarchy-
Hulk was easily able to no-sell an attack from Cyclops
Magneto is no match for Thor who Kurse was stated to be 4 times as strong as
OK lets start of with this. First of all thats not Magneto in that scan. Its Juggernaut. I'm not at all sure how Magneto relates to that scan. On to the Cyclops aspect. Thats just a random statement that suggests Cyclops can rip a small planet in half. Thats not even as good as small planet busting. And Small planet busting is about as good as moon busting or even less.
Furthermore your forget the big issue with this. Cyclops was going all out here and its the only time in the characters history where he has suggested this level of power. Cyclops has been in publication for years and he hasn't done nothing more than bust mountains most of the time. At best this is a feat he utilizes in his max and we have no reason to believe that he uses that consistently against everyone, so suggesting that he used the same power against Hulk is baseless. We don't know how much power he used in that attack.
Its also worse than what actual fodder in the DB universe can do. Like Roshi for example who is more than a thousand times weaker than Vegeta was able to bust a moon with his full power attack. This is an on panel feat, no doubt on it. And its consistent given later characters can destoy moons with ease.
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Kurse was also able to curbstomp Beta Ray Bill using only 50% of his full power
Now for his part. BRB is consistently planetary. I will not dispute that as he has actual feats of performing such attacks and is not inconsistent with it.
But you haven't actually shown the fight between Kurse and BRB. I'd like to see exactly what happened before you can make claims like this. Without posting the feats there is no proof of the fight. The least you can do is provide the scans that actually involve your character.
A full power attack from BRB did no damage to Thanos whatsoever yet the same Thanos was vomitting Blood from one punch from America Chavez. That shows punches from America Chavez are on a completely different level to BRB. We already know that Kurse is on a completely different level to BRB. And BRB can effortlessly pulverize planets and no-sell planet-vaping attacks. Heck even a fodder like Cyclops can bust planets who isn't even a nuisance for Hulk, planet-busting is no big deal.
Heck even the silver surfer has never damaged Thanos as severely as America and he has fought Thanos several times and has several casual high end planet level showings-
So lots of things wrong here. So I have already addressed that Cyclops own statement puts him below small planet busting. So at best Hulk tanks an attack that is worse than small planet busting. And thats if we go by the assumption that Cyclops consistently operates at that level which is clearly not the case.
On to BRB. He never hits Thanos once in that entire fight. The scan you showed is of him busting Thanos's chair, not hitting Thanos at all. Further more this was done with a hammer throw. BRB busted the planet with a hammer strike. Two very different things.
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Also addressed the Kurse statement, until your actually show the fight, I'm not just taking your word for anything.
As for the Surfer scaling. There is yet another issue with that. First and foremost Surfer uses energy attacks. Thats how he planet busts. Miss America uses physical attacks. Two very different things. All you have proven is A) Thanos has much better energy durability feats, or B) comics are wildly inconsistent as by your logic, Miss America hits harder than Odin's blast. As Thanos tanked a few of those without bleeding. Which in turn makes her way above the limits.
Truth is its both, which is what the problem with your scaling is.
A weaker version of Hulk than WB Hulk has defeated the Silver Surfer so he scales far above this casual planet buster.
This is just false. Not only does it ignore the fact that Surfer uses energy attacks vs WBH's physical attacks. The last fight Surfer had with Hulk prior to him becoming WBH was in Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #95. Here Surfer was actually being enslaved and weakened, yet he was still able to knock away Hulk and even over power him. Surfer also casually dealt with Korg. Hulk needs help from others to destroy what was controlling Surfer. Then while Surfer is thanking, Hulk cheap shots him and beats him down. Surfer was weakened in this fight, not able to fully utilizes his powers and yet still when he was actually fighting he was winning. Only when he stops does Hulk get the advantage. What this means is that Hulk couldn't fairly beat a Surfer who couldn't access his power cosmic.
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All in all none of this puts your characters above just planet busting. Which Vegeta's one feat is already better than since he busts a planet and a moon simultaneously. But since we are scaling, I will also bring up the fact that King Vegeta, someone who Vegeta surpassed was able to bust multiple planets with a single way of his hand. You will also notice that kid Vegeta is actually present for this and survives the whole attack too. King Vegeta is actual fodder for late Namek characters. And yet he is capable of multi planet busting.
So while your characters scale above planet busters. Vegeta scales above Multi Planet busters. Thats a massive difference.
Even the so-called slowdinson Thor could react to quicksilver with his picosecond reactions
Kurse stomped Thor. Hulk has fought Thor many times and reacted to Thanos who has reacted to thor.
OK since we are going the scaling route. I can go the opposite of this. But before I do, I will mention that neither of these go against one of my biggest points with Quicksilver. Which is that he only performed his feat very recently. Until then he had no feats on this level and thus either its an outlier or Quicksilver only now became this fast. In either case neither Thor nor Hulk, nor Miss America scale off this feat unless they have shown to be his equal in speed after he reached this level.
I'd also like to point that the feat is just him looking up quickly. He doesn't run that fast, he doesn't fight that fast. Its at best a feat for his reactions. Which neither of your feats really involve. Meaning they still don't scale to his picosecond feat.
But lets go into these feats provided. First Thors. Your feat to me makes it clear Thor is slower than Quicksilver. Thor wasn't able to him to so he resorts to hitting the ground causing Quicksilver to lose his footing. Like he clearly isn't fast enough to tag Quicksilver so he resorts to an aoe attack to stop him from moving.
Now this is actually a tactic that Thor has used in the past against people faster than. Like Wolverine. Thor outright admits Wolverine is faster than him so he resorts to striking the ground to get him. This almost a carbon copy of what he had to do against Quicksilver. Its consistent to say this is how he deals with faster characters. And that he is clearly not on their level of speed.
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Of course this is a tactic that Thor utilizes. Not your characters. And it wouldn't work against people who can fly. Now unless you honestly believe Wolverine is faster than picosecond this should make it obvious why this scaling of yours doesn't work.
Heck Hulk has reacted to Quicksilver hismelf, grey hulk that too
This Hulk feat is even worse. Hulk tags Quicksilver with a thunder clap. Which essentially means he tagged him with an attack moving at the speed of sound. Quicksilver is quite clearly not moving at anywhere near LS in that scan for that to be the case. And this serves to further prove my point. Quicksilver's feat is a one off he only produced last year. Either he is only now this fast or it is simply not his consistent level of speed. In either case it means none of your characters would scale to it at all.
So even with out getting into the anti feats neither of your feats actually prove Thor and Hulk are picosecond or even light speed. Like Slowdinson might be a meme but there is a very real reason for it. He has barely any actual LS showings of his own. I think combat related he has one where he swings his hammer. And thats it.
The fact of the matter is Thor and Hulk have mostly low showings and no actual LS combat speed feats of their own. You never actually see them fight at high speeds that you consistently see with DB characters from very early one.
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Or even the kind we see from Superman quite often. Utilizing his speed to to actually blitz characters. clear displays of super speed. Not talking about bullrushes which is simply travel related but actually fighting at such speeds.
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Beta Ray Bill and SS themselves can fight and react at MFTL speeds- Kurse has beaten BRB, Hulk has beaten SS and America has fought Thanos who scales FAR above them both and made him bleed.
Again you haven't provided any actual showings of Kurse doing anything at all. You cant just say something and expect me to accept it and move. Post feats. Its not that hard in a debate. You can post so many feats for so many random characters but you can provide me one Kurse scan? Seriously? Why did you even pick him.
Also not sure about this feat. They are on the a ship that is travelling at high speeds, and they fight on it. I guess its a solid feat for Surfer to catch up but from there on the feat is a bit tricky.
Gladiator saw Heimdall galaxies away and then flew galaxy-lengths, it is a reaction/perception speed feat.
How is it a speed feat? It shows how far he can see. Not at all a perception speed feat, just a range feat.
Kurse has tanked mjolnir blows with no damage- Mjolnir blows can pulverize planets.
Mjolnir can fly around the galaxy in seconds and Thanos has reacted to it who America scales to.
Show me an actually example of Thor busting a pulverizing a planet.
So first I explained above, this feat is actually much faster than Picoseconds and would make America over the limit. But I don't think this works as a feat because Thor's hammer through doesn't necessarily have a fixed speed and I'm pretty sure you are comparing Thor flying with hammer vs him throwing it. More over I already showed an on panel example of Miss America being slower than light. All you have is random scaling. I think on panel showings take clear precedence.
Even Grey Hulk easily destroyed a meteor which was twice the size of Earth who WB Hulk scales far above.
The scans clearly say he has help. He sent out of the planet at FTL speeds to destroy the meteor. The speed combined with his mass and strength helped him destroy it. Sure its a good feat, and it wouldn't have worked if it was someone else but his durability and the speed he was propelled at helps too. Hulk can't actually bullrush people like this in a fight.
Part 3: Counters to the team
Hax is banned in this tourney so I don't know why you're bringing this up. Nevermind that Hulk will be able to regen from pretty much all of your strategies. Adamantium cannot be damaged via AP, at least the amounts your team has so physical strikes are pretty much useless
OK I probably went a little overboard with the hax. I will happily admin that some of the stuff I mentioned is against the rules. But the main plan is still allowed. H'el is just using TK to lift and restrain you mid air. Which is allowed. After that Vegeta would simply use an energy attack.
Yeah adamantium needs to have feats of surviving multiple planet busting attacks concentrated on it for you to make that claim. Otherwise its just an no limits falacy. You need to prove it. Besides you just have a skeleton, so your characters still get erased. Hulk can regen back true. But no when he is totally annihilated till there is nothing left. He also has no way of getting out of the TK so he is still incapped which is a win condition.
The collateral damage created by Hulk's blows will destroy pretty much all of Gotham before Hank will be able to assimilate any of the tech. As you correctly said H'el was weakened by the kryptonite, he was affected by it but managed to adapt. He will not be able to adapt to golden kryptonite. You have yet to provide any pico-second level reaction feats for your team.
OK what? Either Hulk destroys Gotham which includes the kryptonite or he doesn't. If he does then Kryptonite is irrelevant. If he doesn't, the Henshaw has a lab to takeover. You need to make up your mind because you can't have it both ways.
Also did you not read my post? I said he was weakened by being stabbed. Kryptonite doesn't affect him. The scans clearly state that there is no sign of radiation. It minorly affects Henshaw, who still has his technopathy to take over a whole arsenal of tech.
Part 4: Contradictions
Your strategy completely contradicts itself. You can't have Hulk use an aoe attack to destroy everything whilst simultaneously trying to use something in the area he is destroying. I said this in my first post and you still didn't address it here. You need to make up your mind on that.
Regardless Kryptonite only has an effect on one of my characters. And while he loses Kryptonian powers are weaken he gets so much more from the Universal Hammer plus the tech provided to him with the Batcave.
Aside from Hulk both your character seem to have 0 feats. Its just multiple layers of scaling. A did this to b who tanked this from c who beat d. Its nonsensical because you ignore so much context in the scans. Plus if you actually follow this scaling, your characters would actually be above the limits.
Part 5: The Strategy
My plan remains the same. Your entire plan no matter what requires your team in the end to engage mine in H2H. Mine doesn't. H'el can restrain them with TK from afar. And Vegeta blasts them with a concentrated multi planet busting attack to large planet busting attack. Killing them all.
You are scaling above planet busting characters. Vegeta scales above a multi planet busting character and has a casual planet and moon busting feat of his own. This is still within Jupiter busting as Jupiter being Gas Giant is much large than multiple planets combined. Still is vastly above any durability feats your have provided even with all the wonky scaling you have had to resort to.
While he is doing this H'el and Vegeta will be more focused on your team. H'el can make things easier for Henshaw by simply holding your team together with TK. H'el was capable of telekinetically restraining Superman, WonderWoman a Superboy all at the same time in Superman #17. Superman himself has planetary strength in terms of lifting and so being able to restrain him alone is impresssive but he is restraining to other powerhouses as well. And he is doing with just one hand whilst talking to Kara.
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The simplest method of taking the theme out once this is done, is Vegeta just using a powerful energy blast against your whole team while they are immobilized by H'el.
Here Vegeta casually busts a planet and its moon without even breaking a sweat. Also notice that he does in space again showing that in the anime he can survive in it. This Vegeta is also a good bit weaker than Vegeta in Namek. This is also a good speed feat for Vegeta's blast as it's able to quickly reach the planet forms seemingly beyond the moon, making it an FTL feat for the Saiyan and a casual one at that.
Simply put, your characters aren't actually anywhere near as strong as fast as you think they are when you actually read the vast majority of scans provided. A bit above planet busting with poor speed. And well if we take your scaling at its word, your characters are above the limits. Either way my team wins.
@drax5343: @emperorthanos-: I agree with your general consensus, however while I do not want to generally place my thought etc, those feats can be nullified or shown as scaling to not being above the OP, also I will allow a slight leniency; due to a late reply and slightly breaking the rules beforehand.
Please keep within the OP guys/girls, as of next time points will be awarded against you, winner will qualify.
@drax5343: @emperorthanos-: I agree with your general consensus, however while I do not want to generally place my thought etc, those feats can be nullified or shown as scaling to not being above the OP, also I will allow a slight leniency; due to a late reply and slightly breaking the rules beforehand.
Please keep within the OP guys/girls, as of next time points will be awarded against you, winner will qualify.
Well that would be ok with Thanos scaling I guess. But the galaxy speed feats are still outright over the limits when actually looked into.
There are scans of Magneto there, re-read my post.
Thanos vs Odin
Odin was clearly not even remotely serious and was holding back severely against Thanos. Odin is universally portaryed as being on a completely different level to someone like Thanos. He could probably vaporize Thanos with a gesture. Saying Thanos tanked his attacks is like saying Tien tanked Beerus' attacks and using that to say Nappa is above Beerus. It's even more extreme in fact since the power difference between Tien and Beerus is much smaller than the one between Thanos and Odin. And Thanos is immortal, for all we know he was getting completely vaporized by Odin's blasts and regenerating instantly (albeit this is unlikely). If Odin wasn't holding back then this whole fight is a massive outlier as Odin is several weight classes above someone like Thanos.
Kurse
Kurse is outright stated to be 4 times as strong as Thor so he should scale to 4 times all of Thor's feats. But nonetheless here are some feats of him-
No sells a hammer strike from amped Thor-
No sells a hammer throw
I can't find any scans of the Kurse vs BRB fight since it is a very old comic but here's a scan of BRB talking about his defeat at Kurse's hands-
Not only does Bill admit total inferiority to Kurse, Thor even says he isn't surprised Bill lost. Bill was completely roflstomped by Kurse using only 50% of his full power.
Speed
Thor and Hulk's feats against Quicksilver's feats are picosecond reaction feats. As you correctly said QS has picosecond reactions which is why he could look up in a picosecond. Thor's was standing in front of QS, he hit his hammer on the ground to create a shockwave too fast for QS to react and jump out of the way. This means he did this in the space of a picosecond. The same with Hulk's feat. QS has picosecond reactions so he should have been able to react to or dodge Hulk's attack.
I don't understand why you bring up QS's feat being recent ? Isn't a common argument that people bring up that Marvel isn't as strong as it used to be (IIRC even you sometimes bring this up ?) Now Marvel is stronger than it used to be ?
That is a scan of Mjolnir's flight speed not Thor flying with mjolnir. Please look at the actual scans.
Hulk's durability
Also grey hulk no-sold being thrown into that meteor so it is an immense durability feat. Also Cyclops outright says he is at maximum power against the Hulk and that fight happened after the Juggernaut feat. Not to mention Hulk's immense regen which you have failed to address at all.
Strategy
As I have shown my team has picosecond reactions and full knowledge. Kurse and America can easily pick up pieces of Kryptonite before your team members can react and before Hulk causes AOE destruction to the lab. They have the physical durability (especially with their adamantium skeletons) to shield the kryptonite from damage. Not to mention they could stick your teammates with Kryptonite very quickly into the fight and the golden kryptonite will work instantaneously, the very instant the fight begins. Even femtosecond reactions won't save your krytonians from being nerfed.
Why would a powerful kryptonian be weakened by a stab ? They have better endurance than that. It was obviously the effects of the kryptonite that was weakening H'el. Golden Kryptonite is a different mineral entirely that H'el has not built up an immunity too so he will automatically be turned into a normal human.
Gas Giants vary in size, America scaling above the gas giant explosion doesn't make her above large planet level. It puts her at the very top of gas giant level. (Though it also means that Vegeta's blasts are unlikely to do much damage since Vegeta only scales above destroying a few small planets while America has tanked attacks from Thanos himself- someone who could no-sell an exploding gas giant. And I said in my first post that her adamantium skeleton likely puts America slightly above the limits for this tourney, which is fine, that is what perks are for, amping characters. Hulk and Kurse too are very duarble and have immense endurance so they are unlikely to be much affected as well, Hulk has charged through much more powerful blasts to punch the people firing them as I've shown in scans.)
Conclusion
1. You have not given sufficient reason for the golden kryptonite not nerfing H'el.
2. You have given insufficient speed and power feats or scaling that make either Henshaw or Vegeta anwhere near comparable to my team. Even if you have given some power feats, you haven't demonstrated anything anywhere near picosecond reactions- statues unfortunately can't fight. Your main wincons seem to be hax that is outside of the limits of the tourney and your team is too slow to use this hax anyway. Ronan's hammer will likely be destroyed before Hank can assimilate it because of the massively superior reactions + full knowledge of my team.
3. You have not given any counter to Hulk's regeneration or the adamantium skeletons.
4. Lightsabers are insta-kill weapons which can damage characters FAAAR above the limits of this tourney such as Abeloth and the Son (who are both in the galaxy-busting range), this combined with my character's superior reactions means your team will be sliced up and/or incinerated before they even realize where they are.
I'm not bringing up anything new. Just reposting arguments and scans
Final Post
So yeah I did miss the Magneto part. Sorry about that, but you need to format your links better than just post the three right next to each other.
Anyway they don't change much. The first is just him cutting Earth's Electromagnetic field. Honestly not sure how impressive that is, but magnetic field itself wouldn't be as hard to split as the planet I assume. The second just seems to be Magneto bringing a bullet in space to Earth. I'm not really sure what the planetary feat there is supposed to be.
Odin Vs Thanos
Odin was clearly not even remotely serious and was holding back severely against Thanos. Odin is universally portaryed as being on a completely different level to someone like Thanos. He could probably vaporize Thanos with a gesture. Saying Thanos tanked his attacks is like saying Tien tanked Beerus' attacks and using that to say Nappa is above Beerus. It's even more extreme in fact since the power difference between Tien and Beerus is much smaller than the one between Thanos and Odin. And Thanos is immortal, for all we know he was getting completely vaporized by Odin's blasts and regenerating instantly (albeit this is unlikely). If Odin wasn't holding back then this whole fight is a massive outlier as Odin is several weight classes above someone like Thanos.
Well well. I hope you realize how hypocritical this is. Everything you said here applies to Thanos and Miss America. The power gap, the fact that it would be a massive outlier, holding back, could have easily vaporized is they wanted. Odin was quite blatantly going all out in that fight by the way. There is 0 proof otherwise. He was under the impressive Thanos had attacked his son, and he had one shotted Surfer earlier. And the Beerus comparison doesn't work. Beerus one shotted a Tien that was much stronger than Nappa at that point.
But you have essentially explained yourself what the problem with such scaling is. What you said here can apply to every bit of scaling. Thanos is universally portrayed being completely above avengers like Miss America, Quicksilver is universally portrayed as being faster than any one on Earth.
You can't make such a claim about Odin yet still keep all the scaling arguments you have made.
Kurse
There isn't much to say here really. You didn't even provide me the actual showing of BRB losing to Kurse. You were doing a decent amount of scaling there but it is quire relevant to see how he beat BRB to get a better idea of how they compare. I can agree he is stronger than Thor and BRB I suppose and I have addressed their feats. But that would simple make Kurse stronger than planet busters. While Vegeta casually planet busted himself and scales above a multi planet buster.
Speed
Thor and Hulk's feats against Quicksilver's feats are picosecond reaction feats. As you correctly said QS has picosecond reactions which is why he could look up in a picosecond. Thor's was standing in front of QS, he hit his hammer on the ground to create a shockwave too fast for QS to react and jump out of the way. This means he did this in the space of a picosecond. The same with Hulk's feat. QS has picosecond reactions so he should have been able to react to or dodge Hulk's attack.
OK did you read what I said in regards to Hulk? Hulk uses a Thunderclap to tag him. For Quicksilver to be hit a by thunderclap, a sound attack. He couldn't be moving at FTL speeds. He doesn't outright tag Quicksilver in the fight.
In regards with Thor I brought up how a street leveler like Wolverine was stated to be faster than Thor by Thor himself and thus Thor utilizes the hitting the ground to put them off footing. Thor using this technique essentially shows that his infact slower than quicksilver, he can't tag him and thus needs to resort to striking the ground.
If you want to make a point that the shockwave is faster than picosecond sure. But that wouldn't matter to Thors own speed. And if anyone has infact reacted and avoided his shockwave then they would simply be over the limits. There is no scenario here that works in your favor
I don't understand why you bring up QS's feat being recent ? Isn't a common argument that people bring up that Marvel isn't as strong as it used to be (IIRC even you sometimes bring this up ?) Now Marvel is stronger than it used to be ?
Who cares what others bring up? That is totally irrelevant.
What matters is the arguments made in this debate right here. And the argument is clear. QS only recently became Picosecond in speed. He has never reached that level of speed before. Which clearly means he is faster than now than before. So prior instances of tagging him don't scale to a feat performed decades later.
As I have shown my team has picosecond reactions and full knowledge. Kurse and America can easily pick up pieces of Kryptonite before your team members can react and before Hulk causes AOE destruction to the lab. They have the physical durability (especially with their adamantium skeletons) to shield the kryptonite from damage. Not to mention they could stick your teammates with Kryptonite very quickly into the fight and the golden kryptonite will work instantaneously, the very instant the fight begins. Even femtosecond reactions won't save your krytonians from being nerfed.
OK just a lot of things wrong here. Lets start with the first sentence. Picosecond reactions means one can react in a picosecond. Not that they can suddenly move at fast speeds and grab things all in the span of a picosecond. Quicksilver himself can't do that. Similar to how people who can react to a bullet don't move at the speed of a bullet.
Secondly physical durability is unrelated to radiation. Having an adamantium skeleton doesn't some how negate the affects of radiation on their bodies. I'm not sure where you got that.
Femtosecond reactions? I'm not sure why that was brought up but you do realize that a Femtosecond is a smaller time frame than a Picosecond. If someone had Femtosecond reactions they would be much faster than someone with Picosecond timing. This is not even relevant to the debate since there has been no mention of femtosecond right now but I just wanted to make that clear.
To Conclude
None of your characters actually have any speed feats. This whole thing seems to revolve scaling over a single statement and some travel speed feats.
As I said from the start. You can scale, but it must be logical. Two of your characters have never interacted with Quicksilver or Gladiator. Instead on Kurse relies on scaling of Thor. Who as I have explained doesn't even actually scale to Quicksilvers speed and is stated to be slower than a Wolverine a street leveler. That was just one example but its more clear on his speed than the feat your provided and didn't address it at all.
And Miss America seems to need to go through like 4 different layers of scaling to get her to speed you are arguing her at. And it directly contradicts the speed feats she actually has. Such as being slow mo to someone who was just at Light speed.
Even in that very storyline we see how Quicksilver is faster than Hulk. This is prior to quicksilver going all out and performing the picosecond feat.
Gallery
Your characters simply aren't portrayed as fast as you believe them to be.
On my end, you already admitted to Vegeta being FTL and you didn't dispute any of the speed feats provided for H'el or Henshaw. Who should both be FTL. Although honestly even if they are just like faster than lightning they are more than fast enough for the fight here.
Durability
Also grey hulk no-sold being thrown into that meteor so it is an immense durability feat. Also Cyclops outright says he is at maximum power against the Hulk and that fight happened after the Juggernaut feat. Not to mention Hulk's immense regen which you have failed to address at all.
Ok so you first showed the feat as a strength and speed feat for Hulk. Now its a durability feat. Pick one. Either he destroyed it with his physical strength or he was just rammed into it. Its still not enough to suggest he can tank a blast from King Vegeta who was busting 3 planets.
Cyclops can say whatever he wants. He has used his "full power" many times. That doesn't mean he uses small planet splitting power in every attack. Its still not even a good feat. Roshi vaporizing an entire moon is better than splitting a small planet. And Roshi is fodder to the Fodder of Vegeta's Fodder.
You haven't provided a feat of Hulk being regenerated from being completely erased.
Gas Giants vary in size, America scaling above the gas giant explosion doesn't make her above large planet level. It puts her at the very top of gas giant level. (Though it also means that Vegeta's blasts are unlikely to do much damage since Vegeta only scales above destroying a few small planets while America has tanked attacks from Thanos himself- someone who could no-sell an exploding gas giant. And I said in my first post that her adamantium skeleton likely puts America slightly above the limits for this tourney, which is fine, that is what perks are for, amping characters. Hulk and Kurse too are very duarble and have immense endurance so they are unlikely to be much affected as well, Hulk has charged through much more powerful blasts to punch the people firing them as I've shown in scans.)
what?
How does Miss America tanking a hit from Thanos, means she scales to his durability. That makes 0 sense. If you want to go the Gas Giant vary in size then your Vegeta point is moot. He scales above someone who casually destroys three planets with a wave of his hand. Thanos tanked the blast of a single planet.
You haven't actually provided any feats for adamantium. This is an NLF. You need to back up claims, something I have kept repeating this debate. Neither Hulk nor Kurse have a feat of tanking a multiple planet blast. Not a single feat you have provided matches that.
To Conclude
Even going to the best feat you have provided, the best you can get your characters to is planet busting.
Strategy
Why would a powerful kryptonian be weakened by a stab ? They have better endurance than that. It was obviously the effects of the kryptonite that was weakening H'el. Golden Kryptonite is a different mineral entirely that H'el has not built up an immunity too so he will automatically be turned into a normal human.
Because he ws still stabbed by a superhuman through the heart. Someone of Supergirls strength stabbing anything through H'el heart would do significant damage. Whether it was Kryptonite or anything else. Which is why he still has a scar. However there is tumor or anything despite having a chunk of Kryptonite put into him. Because he isn't affected by its radioactive properties.
A human isn't inherently made weak by steel but if another human stabbed them in the hear with a steel knife they would still die.
Your plan doesn't really go beyond using Kryptonite and the AOE destroying the whole area. But as the actual evidence shows, Kryptonite will only partially work on one of my characters.
You have then proceeded to show 0 feats of your characters or their skeletons coming back from a multi planet busting blast, nor showing they have the raw lifting strength to get out of H'els TK.
You have harped on picosecond reactions with incredibly faulty scaling that makes 0 sense. I don't understand how you can make your whole Odin explanation and not see how that logic applies to everything you have been doing so far. You clear understand whats wrong with such scaling but you have kept with it throughout this debate simply because it is convenient for you. At the end of the day your characters actual speed feats don't match to what you claim them to be.
My Strat
My Strategy remains the same. You have not argued against it at all. H'el easiler restricts all three of your characters, the same way he did to Superman, WW and Superboy. Particularly because Superman's lifting and raw strength is simply better than anything you have shown for your characters.
Gallery
To make this clear in that very story line. Superman benched press what was the equivalent of the Earth's entire weight for 5 days straight and only end up with single drop of sweat after it. That wasn't even enough for him, he was asking for more. Yet couldm't break out of the TK.
From there Vegeta simply vaporizes the three of your characters with a blast that would be easily above planet busting. Scaling would put him at multi planet busting. Given his father did it with the wave of his hand. Plus a weaker Vegeta easily busted a planet and its moon.
So this debate was all focused on your characters, with the side debate in regards to H'el and his weakness. I assume that given your lack of arguing against anything else, you agree with the level I have placed my characters. Which of course is fine since the feats are there and the scaling is quite clear.
Which I cannot say about the scaling that you have resorted to. I have already stated where your scaling goes wrong and why it is so faulty. Really the only thing that matters here is the speed aspect, because all the other scaling really isn't even enough to suggest the survive or take down Vegeta. And even then the speed feat is reactionary, that is a bit different from actual combat speed and while it may help them react to attacks, it wont suddenly allow them to move at such speeds. So my plan actually still works.
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