CaV: Hancock (GearSecond659) vs MCU Hulk (Pope052) OPEN FOR VOTES

HANCOCK

HULK

RULES

• Morals On
• Fight to K.O. or Death

Fight Takes Place Here

@pope052 OP is up

This looks like a mismatch but what the hell, T4V.

Awesome, I have to go to work soon enough so would you like to open or wait?

@pope052: I can wait.

Sounds good, I'll get started on my opener now anyway.

bump

@gearsecond659: Works over now and well, it certainly feels good to be back to the Vine, been far too long... :)

Anywho, after seeing Infinity War my urge to partake in a CAV again - specifically with Hulk (despite making an appearance in the film for a only a couple of minutes) oddly enough. Now, I will be referencing some content from Infinity War throughout this debate so just a heads up for anyone who still hasn't seen it, but I'm sure most of us have by now.

You may have Hancock, but I have the Hulk...

This opener will be cut short and sweet, as I prefer to save most of Hulk's material for when you've said your piece for Hancock in order to counter points, etc. Having seen both the Avengers/Incredible Hulk and Hancock movies multiple times, I'm confident in Hulk taking the battle the majority of the time to say the least.

One of the main reasons being is that he has faced multiple beings superior to that of Hancock's foes and generally plays in a bigger ball park in comparison overall. The main advantages I'll give Hancock is maybe speed, and the ability to fly - although I doubt them sufficient to allow him to prevail here. While he is also very powerful in terms of strength, Hulk will be able to tank pretty much anything John can and will throw at him and send it back with more power - as well as anger.

When we get our first look at the Hulk in the Avengers, he causes utmost destruction and ends up battling Thor.

• 0:38 - 0:41 - Effortlessly rips off a flight of metal stairs.
• 1:20 - 1:30 - As he chases Black Widow, Hulk destroys a hallway as if running through thin air.
• 1:34 - 1:40 - Thor spears him through a big metal wall, to which he is unphased.
• 1:48 - 3:18 - Throughout his scrap with Thor, he shrugs off Thor's punches, sends him flying through a load of containers with a measly punch, takes a pretty much full force smack off Mjolnir which only made him angrier and caused him to crush a jet, and ends up overpowering Thor by throwing him around like a ragdoll.
• 3:30 - 4:00 - Firepower from one of S.H.I.E.L.D's jets simply bounches off his skin. Hulk then leaps on top of the jet, tears it apart, catches the pilot the instant he ejects, then takes the explosion head on which sends him falling thousands of feet in the air and he survives with virtually no effect aside from reverting into Banner.

While a few of them showings may seem petty overall, I'm simply analyzing each and every one of Hulk's feats for comparison. The most noteworthy to take from the above scene is tanking a powerful swing of Mjolnir, overpowering Thor, and coming out more or less unscathed after an explosion and falling from the height the hellicarrier was at. Hancock hasn't got the feats to suggest that he hits even close to as hard as Thor w/Mjolnir, so Hulk will be able to comfortably handle his hits without much trouble. Thor is also shown to be more durable than Hancock overall, and Hulk being able to fling him about is enough to say he can inflict damage to John easily.

I am aware that Thor, for the most part, outclasses Hulk as shown in Ragnarock. However, this was partly due to Thor having a very open arena to be able to fight so it was difficult for Hulk to properly get his hands on him. In the Hellicarrier, this was not the case and he was able to give Thor more trouble than he could handle at the time, so here it will be no different.

In regards to speed, I don't even think Hancock truly outmatches Hulk in this, it's more so his ability to fly that he has over Hulk. This is not a big issue however, as Hulk is seen to be very capable of handling flying Chitauri in the battle of New York.

Speaking of that battle, there's plenty of more showings of Hulk's stats over Hancock here.

• 3:30 - 3:45 - The infamous Leviathan feat. It's debatable whether Hulk killed the Leviathan with the punch, but either way it's an excellent showcase of his striking power being able to completely stop it in its tracks and send it overboard to the point where it was basically destroyed.
• 4:04 - 4:20 - Hulk is able to leap great heights and take apart many Chitauri fairly quickly.
• 6:17 - 6:27 - Another example of how quickly he can handle multiple enemies.
• 11:57 - 12:08 - Catches Iron-Man when he was falling at a great speed and although in this video it was skipped, he lands from that building onto his back completely unharmed.

From everything covered now, Hulk will be giving Hancock plenty of problems. I did a runthrough of the Hancock movie earlier on in order to set a comparison and from the original Avengers movie alone, I believe he'll have a comfortable win over John. Hancock's only notable opponent was Mary, and their fight only really consisted of crashing into concrete from great distances and occasional punches - they have several similar feats to Hulk's, however on a much lesser scale when looked at together. An impressive feat of Hancock's is stopping the train with ease, but Hulk managed to mess up a much bigger Leviathan with a punch. As well as this, he took a few moments to get himself out of the train after stopping it, so it'd be doubtful to say he could casually apply this force with each punch.

Aside from that, Hancock faced no one other than powerless thugs and criminals. When he fought in the air he was a bit sloppy, and otherwise didn't make any significant or noticeable use of his speed that would truly give him this advantage over Hulk or create many problems. Other than that, I believe Hulk outclasses him in physical stats and that's not including the more feats to come.

So, in summary...

• Hulk has taken plenty of damage in every form to handle what Hancock can throw at him.
• He has harmed and beaten foes on a level that Hancock isn't too well versed in.
• Although Hancock can fly, Hulk is certainly fast enough to keep up with this and tag him just fine.
• Hulk smash!

This is just a small opener for now man, your move, this should be fun :)

t4v

No problem man

@pope052: Very nice post. My opener should be up tonight.

No problem, look forward to seeing it man, my reply should be tomorrow before work.

T4V

(t4v)

Pope52? WOOOJJHHNNBG DTDTHTEHTNNNENHNMENDMJKKOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! THE LEGEND!

T4V

Woah, Pope52???

T4V for sure

T4V

This looks interesting....T4V.

HANCOCK: THE HEROIC ASSHOLE

CHARACTER THEME

THE HEROIC ASSHOLE I: STRENGTH

Now, in regards to strength, I am going to have to assert that Hancock is physically stronger than the Hulk. And no, I am not talking about striking strength because in that department, there simply aren't enough feats to make that conclusion, but in terms of raw strength, you can't deny Hancock is stronger.

The best feat of Hancock's is when he stopped a speed train with a casual shoulder bash. Now this is impressive because when, there was no momentum behind Hancock's strike and two it was done casually.. This also doubles as a durability feat for Hancock, but I will get into that later.

Now you may discount this feat because it isn't traditional striking strength, but remember, Hancock frequently engages in bullrushes mid combat. Just look at his fight with Mary as an example. So in that context, this strength feat is perfectly valid. And remember, this feat was achieved without momentum. But combined with his insane amount of speed, Hancock can deliver devastating strikes (more on that later)

THE HEROIC ASSHOLE II: SPEED

In terms of speed, I would argue that Hancock stomps the Hulk, to the point that there is really no way for Hulk to react to or even tag Hancock.

As stated before, Hancock frequently engages in bullrushes during combat so Hancock, so I will be taking a look at Hancock's travel speed.

Below, Hancock breaks the sound barrier on multiple occasions.

Gallery

Now if you want evidence of Hancock using this speed during combat, look no further than Hancock bull rushing roberts at FTE speeds. It was likely he was holding back as well as if he was going all out, he would have killed the robbers.

Gallery

Now, let's talk about reaction speed for a second.

If by some miracle Hulk reacts to Hancock (which is very unlikely), in addition to being able to move at speeds surpassing the speed sound, he is also able to react at speeds surpassing the speed of sound.

This was best exemplified when he maneuvered around a plane while moving at high speeds. When considering that Hancock was moving way over the speed of sound at this point, reacting to a plane while flying this fast is very impressive.

Thus, Hulk really has no way of reacting to a potential FTE bullrush from Hancock or a way of tagging Hancock with his supersonic + reaction time.

THE HEROIC ASSHOLE III: DURABILITY

In terms of blunt force durability, Hancock is actually very impressive.

He was no sold flying through a road side at high velocities.

He tanks being smashed with a truck with really no damages at all.

Gallery

Collides with the top of a mountain before crashing onto the street at very high speeds.

Is sent through multiple structures during his fight with Mary and tanks that with ease.

And as said before, he practically no sold being hit by a speed train.

With all of this being said, Hancock is more than capable of tanking hits from the Hulk. I mean he no sold being hit by a speeding train for Christ sake. And again, this is assuming that Hancock is even going to get tagged by the Hulk.

DRUNKEN HEROISM: COUNTERS

CONCLUSION: PUTTING EVERYTHING TOGETHER

Thus, Hancock wins this fight due to his superior speed and strength. Hancock, with a casual shoulder bash, stopped a speed train, severely damaging it. Combine this power with his insane FTE travel/combat speed and you have the bullrush to end all bullrushes that I am not sure Hulk can tank. He maybe, MAYBE able to tank one bullrush from Hancock, but a few more and Hulk is out. In addition, Hulk isn't going to be able to react to Hancock as he was never reacted to FTE enemies and has been blitzed by far slower opponents. And even if Hulk can react to Hancock, Hancock's supersonic + reaction speed ensures that he won't be tagged at all by the Hulk.

@pope052: post is up

@pope052: BTW, mind if we keep this a short CaV and make it 2 post each as Hancock doesn't really have that much feats for this to be a 3 post CaV

T4V

T4V please. Glad i'm not seeing Hancock wank here.

T4v

Hulk doesn't really either honestly, want to even make it 3 posts each and have the last one as counters to what the other person has said or something like that? I just think 2 posts is short, but if you don't want to I'm cool with just doing 2 man.

Anyway, very good reply, should have a counter post up in a while or after work :)

Tag please

T4V please

Very well. Let's do 3 posts each.

When did Pope get back?

T4v

Tag.

@gearsecond659: Alright Prince of Bel Air, round two incoming! This post will be a lengthy reason why Hulk will do the following...

Now, in regards to strength, I am going to have to assert that Hancock is physically stronger than the Hulk. And no, I am not talking about striking strength because in that department, there simply aren't enough feats to make that conclusion, but in terms of raw strength, you can't deny Hancock is stronger.

Hancock is physically strong, but he's no Hulk. He simply doesn't have enough material under his belt for you to back up this claim, and to add to that the only noteworthy material he does have displaying his strength has not been against an actual opponent - not even close to say he surpasses that of of Hulk's caliber in this department, as I'll demonstrate throughout this post. The reason why a degree of strength against someone else should be shown is to determine how well Hancock can put it to use in a fight.

Now you may discount this feat because it isn't traditional striking strength, but remember, Hancock frequently engages in bullrushes mid combat. Just look at his fight with Mary as an example. So in that context, this strength feat is perfectly valid. And remember, this feat was achieved without momentum. But combined with his insane amount of speed, Hancock can deliver devastating strikes (more on that later)

I won't completely discount the feat, as it is a good measure of Hancock's strength and perhaps durability- not striking power by any means. The way Hancock stopped the train was by lunging shoulder first into it, not using his fists, elbows or any other way that may be a good example to gauge the power of his punches. If a door is locked and you throw your whole body weight shoulder first into it, you'll likely be able to bust it open depending on your strength - but by punching/elbowing it? Generally not very plausible.

This is essentially how Hancock stopped the train, by putting his full body weight into it. It's very doubtful him punching it would have completely stopped it as it did, dented perhaps but then again John rarely if even at all throws a punch in the movie. For this reason it's possible his aren't very effective. I could be wrong, however it's practically impossible for you to present a case without speculating.

In regard to the whole bull-rushing tactic, he doesn't really do it as frequent as you're saying as there was literally no instance where John or Mary effectively bull-rushed one another in their tussle. It started with Hancock taking off and Mary catching up to him mid air, then when they fought in the midst of the storm they sprinted at each other on ground with no spectacular speed involved. The whole fight itself had no coordination, it was simply them wrestling/grappling each other while flying and crashing into buildings - neither of them had any display of legitimately rushing the other with the extreme strength, power and speed like you're saying.

The feat of the train itself is still a good showing of his strength, but it's really all Hancock has to show for himself where as Hulk has a good few, consistent showings of strength to put him above John - key difference being in combat scenarios. I know he stopped the train pretty much effortlessly too but this can't used to scale him against a moving target who can handle this force. Hulk actively engages in and has solidly shown capabilities in the departments Hancock is lacking - it's now time for more Hulk action.

I couldn't find any GIF's for his only two feats in this scene, so i'll just post the opening video.

• 0:38 - 0:47 - Catches a burning tank mid air and throws it over his shoulders, and quickly disposes of multiple troops.
• 2:53 - 2:58 - Bull-rushes through a bunker, blowing it up and comes out completely unscathed.

In this next video, he fights Tony piloting the Hulkbuster armor - he loses, but still shows incredible feats.

• 0:22 - 0:28 - Launches a car effortlessly at Tony and then sends him flying to the ground.
• 0:29 - 0:35 - Tony grabs and mangles Hulk into the pavement, which has no effect and Hulk easily boots away.
• 0:37 - 0:52 - Takes punch and blast from Tony that sends him through a building and a truck, is unaffected, instantly comes back to send Tony to the ground again and impales the armor with a lamppost.
• 0:53 - 0:56 - He damages the armor to the point where Tony has to request repairs.
• 0:57 - 1:11 - Tony's fist sends Hulk flying across the block - causes no damage.
• 1:19 - 1:27 - Blocks a full blast from Tony with his hand, then connects blows with him causing a sonic boom.
• 1:29 - 1:56 - Tanks dozens of punches from Tony which inflicts no damage, catches his fist, then Tony locks his arm in the armor and then ragdolls Hulk through buildings - again, soaked by Hulk with no problem.
• 2:18 - 2:36 - Pretty much smirks after being kicked off a building through a punch of stairs, having a whole elevator slammed on top of him and tanks another blow from Tony - resulting in nothing but Hulk continuing the fight.
• 2:36 - 2:48 - A good display of how quickly the Hulk can exchange attacks and counters with Tony posing no issue.
• 3:07 - 4:16 - Tony drops him from skyscraper height and bull rushes him through each story of an entire building and the whole thing collapses on top of Hulk - to no surprise, emerging from the rubble just fine in less than ten seconds. The only reason he stops fighting is because he's distracted by the scared civilians, which Tony acts on and sucker punches him.

From the events of this battle alone there is nothing I can see from Hancock's arsenal that shows his strength is sufficient in matching the Hulk's nor even hurting the Hulk. It'll take a lot more than a standalone, non-combat relevant instance of stopping a train with the force of his body to show he's capable of inflicting the amount of punishment Tony did to him here. John didn't show any significant strength feats in his battle with Mary, a few decent shout outs to his durability yes - but at this point it's fair to say I've already shown that Hulk has easily shrugged off what John has times ten and carried on without any sign of issue.

I would wager Hulk could've won against Tony's Hulkbuster, had it not been for Veronica to back him up for repairs and distractions as well as having to sucker punch him in order to knock him out. Nevertheless, the fact he was able to tear apart Tony's most robust and durable armor to the point he required Veronica is enough to stick Hulk above Hancock in sheer strength and power. Iron-Man's lesser armors have demonstrated the ability to take blows from the likes of Ultron and Thor.

In fact, Iron-Man's Mark 45 took the impact of a city-level explosion from Sokovia head on and wasn't even dented.

There's this and plenty of other showings to take into account, but the main point is that the Hulkbuster skyrockets above these armors and Hulk was able to damage it to the point of Tony needing backup repairs. Among some of his more feats in this movie, he casually tears through Ultron's vibranium armors and at 3:40 in this following video, launches Ultron himself into the air with a punch.

Feel free to watch that video for more of his abilities in that movie, if not, at least I've pointed out the main bits. In Ragnarock, Hulk ends up battling Fenrir, an oversized wolf and he is able to swing it Fenrir by it's tail with ease.

And eventually in order to put an end to Hela, Loki summons Surtur to destroy her. Surtur is a humongous demonic being who wipes out Asgard entirely, and despite being flicked away Hulk was still able knock the demon off balance.

Both Fenrir and Surtur are beings much larger than the train Hancock stopped, as well as being more capable and actual living beings. Hulk's strength was at least enough to stop and swing Fenrir, as well as knocking Surtur back for a few moments. All in all, combined with what I've shown of Hulk ripping apart and beating down on Tony's most durable armor to date, throwing Thor around with ease and everything else shown for him thus far - it's more than safe to say Hulk's strength puts Hancock's to rest. By having better, more consistent physical/striking strength and raw power feats against legitimate opponents - Hulk takes the strength game.

Now, onto the speed department of this battle, which is a factor John arguably has that is outmatched by Hulk's everything else.

In terms of speed, I would argue that Hancock stomps the Hulk, to the point that there is really no way for Hulk to react to or even tag Hancock.

As stated before, Hancock frequently engages in bullrushes during combat so Hancock, so I will be taking a look at Hancock's travel speed.

Yes, Hancock has significant travel speed over Hulk, however I've already refuted the fact that Hancock does not in fact bull-rush his opponents as often as you say. Him and Mary chased and grappled one another then clumsily crashed through buildings, no speed-blitzing/rushing of the sort from what I could see - their fight has nothing on Hulk and Iron-Man's.

Now if you want evidence of Hancock using this speed during combat, look no further than Hancock bull rushing roberts at FTE speeds. It was likely he was holding back as well as if he was going all out, he would have killed the robbers.

This is literally the only instance of him rushing somebody, and it's not even a genuine in-the-midst of combat kind of feat. The thugs weren't even aware of what was going on and so it's inaccurate to say he could do anything like this to a completely aware Hulk. Being able to effectively blitz petty thugs <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< being able to effectively blitz Hulk.

Also, he wasn't faster than the eye, you can see a glimpse of him flying through both times he grabs the thugs, he was just fast enough to make it out the other side before Roberts could properly turn around. Either way, this is not something done in the middle of a fight, it was simply in a hostile scenario against thugs that were unaware of what was going on, there's a big difference.

Now, let's talk about reaction speed for a second.

If by some miracle Hulk reacts to Hancock (which is very unlikely), in addition to being able to move at speeds surpassing the speed sound, he is also able to react at speeds surpassing the speed of sound.

This was best exemplified when he maneuvered around a plane while moving at high speeds. When considering that Hancock was moving way over the speed of sound at this point, reacting to a plane while flying this fast is very impressive.

It's clear that Hancock had seen that plane coming a distance before he was close, not very comparable to Hulk trying to punch him repeatedly multiple times in the face up close. I've shown Hulk's capability of tagging anyone that can fly just fine, and in the fight with the Hulkbuster he was up close with Iron-Man exchanging blows faster than I've seen Hancock throw a punch or the like.

It's at 2:36 - 2:48 in the video I posted, Hulk was nailing Tony with punches until he was thrown through the building but he reacted quick enough to grab onto a ledge and swing himself instantly back to Tony, commencing with blow after blow again. Hancock can fly fast but his fights are completely sloppy as its just him and Mary constantly in a grapple flying through buildings - literally no showings of reacting, throwing punches, kicks or any sort of other attack as fast as Hulk can. Hulk will have no problem getting in his face at all times, he has the reactions and attack speed over John - as well as leaping to stay airborne.

The height Hulk can jump at is immense too, and speaks for it self here honestly (3:07 - 3:18).

The problem with Hancock's speed is the serious lack of it when taken out of the context of him flying, to which even if he uses that in battle here, there's no telling how strong it would be nor would it be even close to say it would put Hulk down. Hulk will tank it head on should John use this but the only way you can argue for it's actual effect on Hulk is based off speculation. He only managed to use it well on powerless criminals, which wasn't even in the middle of a fight - nor a fight with the likes of Hulk.

Thus, Hulk really has no way of reacting to a potential FTE bullrush from Hancock or a way of tagging Hancock with his supersonic + reaction time.

It's not reliable at all to declare him supersonic in the slightest if he saw it from a decent distance away, it's not like he reacted when the plane was almost in contact with his face so this argument is null. I have shown Hulk's reactions and the speed he fights at to be faster than Hancock's, who fights by flying into buildings and being overall badly coordinated - Hulk won't have problems with speed here.

In terms of blunt force durability, Hancock is actually very impressive.

He definitely is, but Hulk has outperformed him already in durability at this point and has the power to put him down.

He was no sold flying through a road side at high velocities.

He tanks being smashed with a truck with really no damages at all.

Collides with the top of a mountain before crashing onto the street at very high speeds.

Is sent through multiple structures during his fight with Mary and tanks that with ease.

I've shown Hulk has went through all of this and worse against Tony's best armor, with literally no effect from any damage apart from taking a few seconds to emerge from the rubble of an entire building and was about to continue to fight. This combined with all other durability feats shown from Hulk puts him above what Hancock has tanked comfortably, Hulk still has more to come momentarily.

And as said before, he practically no sold being hit by a speed train.

Hulk being forced through an entire building after laughing off the previous damage taken a lengthy battle with Tony's best suit alone outshines anything Hancock did in the movie. Even if we exclude those two feats from both sides, the rest of Hancock's durability feats just about match Hulk's as of the the original Avengers movie - but this is not to include the rest of what he has to offer.

• 0:56 - 1:03 - Hulk tanks a lightning charged punch from Thor, which causes a big shock-wave.

For some reason the actual full fight itself is not available, but here's the majority of the rest of it. Throughout their fight in the arena, Hulk tanks very powerful attacks from Thor throughout it and although he won unfairly, the main thing is that he's still left standing after everything Thor dished out on him is what's relevant here - as well as the blows he got on Thor.

And last but certainly not least, despite being KO'd after a few seconds- Hulk manages to tank a few hooks from Thanos. The quality of this GIF isn't great but you can make out what's happening, it's the only one I could find from a thread on this forum.

While he was made short work of no doubt, the fact that Hulk was taking at least a few hits from Thanos w/ the Power Stone is a very impressive feat on it's own. The Power Stone is known to enhance the user's overall stats, abilities, and power. In Guardian's of the Galaxy it had shown the capability of wiping out planets with ease and generally having extreme potential. Thanos is also seen some what shifting a moon or at least influencing it in some way with this stone, and Hulk could at least take few slaps before going down. Before this, he attacked Thanos and although he wasn't hurt - it's credible enough to say Hulk was able to drop him being augmented.

I'm not saying the Power Stone puts Thanos' fists on planetary/moon level either in the slightest, I'm just putting it out there what the stone is capable of so it is clear that it's able to enhance the user's abilities enormously. For Hulk's punches to be able to drop Thanos w/ the stone and last a few seconds in combat with him is still something worth mentioning here.

With all of this being said, Hancock is more than capable of tanking hits from the Hulk. I mean he no sold being hit by a speeding train for Christ sake. And again, this is assuming that Hancock is even going to get tagged by the Hulk.

The problem here is that you're going to base a vast portion of your argument around that train feat, and while it is impressive, there's been plenty more material I've said for Hulk that has proven him easily capable of replicating that feat.

The difference that gives him the advantage here is his feats are based on fighting actual opponents of this size and/or bigger, tanking attacks and damage of this caliber and much more without even being KO'd (plus he continued to fight) - in short, generally having more consistent, reliable, and applicable feats as a combatant. It's hard to keep using the train feat to measure how hard John could hit when he never replicated that strength in battle. This isn't to say the feat shouldn't be used, but it isn't consistently used nor is it enough to become a very comparable feat to what Hulk has going for him is what I'm saying.

Hancock casually stopping a speed train with a shoulder bash plus high speed velocities equals a bullrush equivalent if not superior to an attack from Mjolnir.

A train does not exceed the hammer in impressiveness in any shape or form. Mjolnir is essentially an unstoppable force unless you can wield it. I'm not suggesting it will destroy everything, but it's a challenging obstacle to overcome if you're on the other end of the stick especially when wielded by Thor - here's an idea of the power it has shown to be capable of.

I'm not going to put time stamps on this one, but everything I list is shown in the video below.

• Allows Thor to solo an army of Frost Giants.
• Causes AOE attacks encompassing large areas when powered with lightning.
• Rips straight through a being larger than at least the first carriage of that train.
• Knocks the Destroyer armor on it's back, blocks its building-busting heat blasts with ease and destroys it.
• With combined power, heavily contributes to blowing up Sokovia altogether.

There's more action in that video but those are the goodies, I'd say that's sufficient to suggest it's more impressive taking a full on hit from Mjolnir to the face rather than stop a train - it's at least shown more raw, destructive power and capabilities. A difference here is also the fact that Hancock was completely expecting that train, where as Hulk wasn't exactly ready for a wallop off Thor.

It has also broken through Loki's cell in the helicarrier allowing Thor to escape, which was built to contain Hulk himself.

This logic is very shaky to say the least. The Chitauri weren't breaking sound barriers like Hancock was. I think you are forgetting the speed of Hancock's flight.

That's true, but here's the following factors to take into account for this.

• He hasn't used this speed blitzing technique on anything else but thug fodder.
• Even if he does use it here, we haven't seen it's effectiveness on someone as durable as Hulk, who has more than enough durability feats to suggest he can tank this with ease.
• Once John comes into close contact with Hulk should be perform a bull rush, it's game over. Hulk can take this and has superior up close and personal fighting abilities and combat speed when he's within reach.
• Hancock has no coordination when he fights, it's literally just mindlessly flying fast while crashing through buildings. He has not shown the ability to dodge, counter or even react to anything aside from a plane he saw coming a safe distance beforehand.
• Hulk still has the ability to leap, which can keep up with Hancock's flight should it be necessary.

Ehh no. Hulk dented the metal on the Leviathan's head. That was the only thing accomplished with Hulk's raw striking strength. The rest of the damage was accomplished because of friction from the ground helping Hulk to slow the Leviathan down and causing the Leviathan to curve in on itself.

It was more than simply denting the metal if the whole Leviathan toppled and caused it's armor to start breaking apart. This was only the instant Banner transformed into Hulk as well, not when he was completely up and engaged in battle. This feat is debated often for some reason, but either way, Hancock still hasn't a single striking feat on even this alone.

This is an oversimplification. Hulk was pushed back by the Leviathan while Hancock no sold a speed train. Hulk also only destroyed a portion of the Leviathan's head with his raw striking strength.

The Leviathan was also much bigger than said speeding train, but needless to say, I've provided more than enough material to show that Hulk has outclassed this train feat by now. This is literally one feat in comparison to Hulk's many. It's not your fault since there isn't more material for you to access obviously, but it's just insignificant when faced with feats just as good and better.

LMAO! The only reason it took him a few moments to get out of the trainwas because he was literally stuck inside the train. That was how much damage he caused to the train lol.

Indeed but Hulk toppled a being much larger and more destructive than this train (the Leviathans merely brushing off skyscrapers when passing them was enough to take them apart) - among Hulk's many, many more feats.

Umm, what? We are looking at end of movie Hancock, and in the feat I showed in the speed section, he was able to apply his speed in combat perfectly, moving at FTE speeds and using just enough force to subdue the robbers but not kill them. That isn't sloppy. He may have been sloppy during the beginning of the movie, but by the end of the movie he was a lot more skilled.

He was sloppy when fighting Mary, all they did was fly through buildings and were simply all over the place. I'm not trying to low ball them either, because the majority of the fight was just quite literally them crashing into things. Hulk does crash into things but he's able to bounce back straight away and go for his target very quickly, Hancock is just faster at travelling in a straight line.

Anyway, I've covered how Hulk has more than enough on his plate to counter any possible attack of this sort.

Thus, Hancock wins this fight due to his superior speed and strength. Hancock, with a casual shoulder bash, stopped a speed train, severely damaging it. Combine this power with his insane FTE travel/combat speed and you have the bullrush to end all bullrushes that I am not sure Hulk can tank. He maybe, MAYBE able to tank one bullrush from Hancock, but a few more and Hulk is out. In addition, Hulk isn't going to be able to react to Hancock as he was never reacted to FTE enemies and has been blitzed by far slower opponents. And even if Hulk can react to Hancock, Hancock's supersonic + reaction speed ensures that he won't be tagged at all by the Hulk.

Your argument for Hancock winning is relying on one feat of strength and that's the problem. I'd let that slip if, say, Hancock was shown smashing a planet in two, as I have nothing to show for Hulk that would say he could tank that. The problem is Hulk has several showings of taking attacks that are stronger than said train, from more powerful/bigger/stronger beings than this train, and has dealt this same amount of damage as train would cause multiple times over to these said beings and more.

So, in summary....

• Hulk has much more applicable strength feats to say he is stronger as opposed to Hancock's only notable one.
• Hulk's strength combined with his striking power (creating sonic booms, toppling a Leviathan, launching Ultron into the air, knocking down Thanos, etc) is enough to put down John without taking a lot of time.
• Hulk is a much quicker combatant, John is quicker at travelling in straight lines. His ability to fly is nothing new to Hulk either.
• Hulk's durability is simply far too excessive than the means John has to put him down.
• Hulk literally does what he did to Loki in the opening GIF to Hancock here.

That took a while, phew glad that's done, your move man :)

awesome cav

@pope052: I've changed my mind. Given my other CaVs and how long your post was, I;d prefer if we stick to 2 posts each. Feel free to edit your post if you want it to function more like a closer.

Yeah I'm cool with 2 posts then, i'm fine i'm happy with my post there so you make your last one then we'll call for votes :)

Gear's formatting kinda reminds me if someone else's...

REBUTTAL

VERSUS THE GAMMA-FILLED RAGE MONSTER I: STRENGTH

I am going to start off this section by saying that I concede that Hulk is stronger than Hancock, so seeing who is stronger is not the point of this section. The point of this section is to prove that Hancock is strong enough to hurt the Hulk with his bullrushes.

I won't completely discount the feat, as it is a good measure of Hancock's strength and perhaps durability- not striking power by any means. The way Hancock stopped the train was by lunging shoulder first into it, not using his fists, elbows or any other way that may be a good example to gauge the power of his punches. If a door is locked and you throw your whole body weight shoulder first into it, you'll likely be able to bust it open depending on your strength - but by punching/elbowing it? Generally not very plausible.

Strawman. I never said it was a feat of striking strength, but rather that it was a feat of raw strength that can be applied in a combat setting via bullrush.

In regard to the whole bull-rushing tactic, he doesn't really do it as frequent as you're saying as there was literally no instance where John or Mary effectively bull-rushed one another in their tussle. It started with Hancock taking off and Mary catching up to him mid air, then when they fought in the midst of the storm they sprinted at each other on ground with no spectacular speed involved. The whole fight itself had no coordination, it was simply them wrestling/grappling each other while flying and crashing into buildings - neither of them had any display of legitimately rushing the other with the extreme strength, power and speed like you're saying.

There are two reasons that Hancock was not able to effectively bullrush Mary. One is that there was a tornado sucking everything up, making it very inconvenient to bullrush her and two, Mary is Hancock's physical equal, especially from a speed perspective, which made it even harder to bulrush her given their equal combat and reaction speed. As for how frequent Hancock deploys bull rushing, he attempted to bullrush Mary initially but Mary used the same tactic resulting in their clash.

For examples of effective bull rushes, look at how he took out the criminals during a hostage situation. He bullrushed all of them at supersonic + speeds

Gallery

It is also worth noting that the intense wind pressure caused by the tornado resulted in the fight being uncoordinated, but as we see later on in the film, Hancock is capable of dealing coordinated blows, evident during his fight against the robbers.

From the events of this battle alone there is nothing I can see from Hancock's arsenal that shows his strength is sufficient in matching the Hulk's nor even hurting the Hulk. It'll take a lot more than a standalone, non-combat relevant instance of stopping a train with the force of his body to show he's capable of inflicting the amount of punishment Tony did to him here.

Few things wrong with this statement. For starters, I don't think you understand that the train feat has combat applications via bullrush. And this is perfectly in character for Hancock to do considering the fact he attempted to use it on Mary and effectively used it against the robbers. So Hancock's train feat is a feat that can be applied in combat and can't be dismissed as "non-combat relevant" when you take into account the fact that Hancock has used this strength in combat with his bullrushes. Second, yes, Hulk is durable, but he clearly can't tank too many bullrushes from Hancock considering that after he was bullrushed by Iron Man, he was then oneshotted. Sure he tanked attacks before that but by your own admission, that really didn't do any damage to him at all. This all goes to show that Hancock should be able to deal damage to Hulk with his bullrushes. And let me just say this again, but Hancock's train feat plus supersonic + speeds, and increased momentum equals a bullrush that can deal as much damage as Iron Man's bullrush if not more so. Hell, I'd argue Hulk would be staggered by a shoulder bash from Hancock so a shoulder bash moving several times the speed of sound would deal a lot of damage to the Hulk.

And eventually in order to put an end to Hela, Loki summons Surtur to destroy her. Surtur is a humongous demonic being who wipes out Asgard entirely, and despite being flicked away Hulk was still able knock the demon off balance.

This is a shaky comparison to say the least. One, neither Fenris or Surtur have skin as dense as steel and unlike the train feat, they weren't charging at Hulk like the train was to Hancock. So simply knocking Sutur off balance doesn't equate to Hancock's train feat.

Both Fenrir and Surtur are beings much larger than the train Hancock stopped, as well as being more capable and actual living beings. Hulk's strength was at least enough to stop and swing Fenrir, as well as knocking Surtur back for a few moments. All in all, combined with what I've shown of Hulk ripping apart and beating down on Tony's most durable armor to date, throwing Thor around with ease and everything else shown for him thus far - it's more than safe to say Hulk's strength puts Hancock's to rest. By having better, more consistent physical/striking strength and raw power feats against legitimate opponents - Hulk takes the strength game.

Fenrir is not bigger than the train for one. And two, Fenrir wasn't moving as fast as the speeding train. I concede that Hulk is stronger than Hancock in terms of striking strength, but Hancock is more than capable of hurting the Hulk.

VERSUS THE GAMMA-FILLED RAGE MONSTER II: SPEED

GETTING TO THE POINT

Now I didn't address the durability argument because, tobe honest, Hulk isn't going to react to Hancock at all. Hancock moves at supersonic + speeds and not a single supersonic + speed feat has been shown for Hulk that suggest he can tag Hancock.

Thus, to sum up my points, I will counter the argument that is most problematic for a number of reasons.

• He hasn't used this speed blitzing technique on anything else but thug fodder.
  • He attempted to use it on Mary, and if Hulk was in her place, he would have been tagged.
• Even if he does use it here, we haven't seen it's effectiveness on someone as durable as Hulk, who has more than enough durability feats to suggest he can tank this with ease.
  • Common sense prevails here. A train busting attack moving at supersonic + speeds will at the very least damage the Hulk seeing as how he was staggered by Thor (WITHOUT HIS HAMMER), so if Hancock keeps attacking the Hulk with his bullrushes, the Hulk is going to be knocked out eventually. Hulk is essentially a sitting duck in this fight against Hancock as he lacks the speed feats to really contend with Hancock
• Once John comes into close contact with Hulk should be perform a bull rush, it's game over. Hulk can take this and has superior up close and personal fighting abilities and combat speed when he's within reach.
  • Except Hancock doesn't fight up close and personal like Hulk does. If he did, I would actually have striking strength feats to show you. Hancock uses bullrushes as his main tactic, evident during his fight with Mary and his fight with the robbers. Especially his fight with the robbers.
• Hancock has no coordination when he fights, it's literally just mindlessly flying fast while crashing through buildings. He has not shown the ability to dodge, counter or even react to anything aside from a plane he saw coming a safe distance beforehand.
  • The only reason it was uncoordinated was because of the tornado. You could see how it was messing up their flying capabilities. In addition, Hancock didn't see the plane beforehand, but even if you want to say he did, there is also the fact that Hancock react to attacks from Mary who moves just as fast as Hancock does.
• Hulk still has the ability to leap, which can keep up with Hancock's flight should it be necessary.
  • LMAO. Hulk has never tagged anyone as fast as Hancock in his life and has never tagged anyone with as fast a reaction time as Hancock.

• Hulk has much more applicable strength feats to say he is stronger as opposed to Hancock's only notable one.
  • Sure, I will give Hulk the strength advantage not that it matters seeing as how Hulk can't even tag Hancock.
• Hulk's strength combined with his striking power (creating sonic booms, toppling a Leviathan, launching Ultron into the air, knocking down Thanos, etc) is enough to put down John without taking a lot of time.
  • Is it enough to take Hancock down? Sure, I am not going to argue that. However, you haven't proven to me that Hulk's combat speed is anywhere near supersonic + to react to and tag Hancock.
• Hulk is a much quicker combatant, John is quicker at travelling in straight lines. His ability to fly is nothing new to Hulk either.
  • Hancock can easily blitz Hulk with a bullrush like he did with the robbers over and over again, which is in character for him to do as he used it against the robbers over and over again. And once more, Hulk has never dealt with anyone who can fly as fast as Hancock.
• Hulk's durability is simply far too excessive than the means John has to put him down.
  • Repeated bullrushes should do the trick. There are only so many Hulk can tank.
• Hulk literally does what he did to Loki in the opening GIF to Hancock here.
  • Nope

So to sum up:

• Hancock is more than capable of hurting Hulk
• Hancock is way faster than Hulk and can easily speed blitz him

This has been a fun debate and may the best man win :)

@ryokuma100:@supergoku17@rr79@chronicplane@worldofthunder@kevd4wg@_kingoflatveria@odin619360: @darkpsychiclord_prime: @mrb1p: @doofasa: @the_red_viper: @gateofbabylon: @grinningf0x: @miraclecomeback: @blackpantherisb:

Voting is up. Please vote for the best debater and only go off of points and arguments presented.

@pope052 Closer is up

@gearsecond659: That was quick, I will have to read through it all first. I will vote sometime either later tonight or tomorrow.

@rr79: hey this my first time voting in a CAV do i vote for the character or the debater? Like for instance do i say Luke gets my vote or GrinningF0X gets my vite?

Damn that was quick

The debater

@grinningf0x: You vote for the dude you think argued the best here. Not who would win a fight, just who convinced you the most (and why)

@gearsecond659: Great post, even though I'd love to reply I know there's not enough material to do so - we should have another debate when you're finished your other CAVs :)

Let the voting commence! Everyone tagged?

@gearsecond659: @stalin-is-steel: thanks guys

Gearsecond659 gets my vote because he did more woth less and really swayed me towards hancock

@grinningf0x: Thanks for the vote :)

@pope052

Agreed, we should do another CaV after this because it has been real fun debating you :)

And yes everyone is tagged...