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#1 Edited by Amendment50 (15480 posts) - - Show Bio
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Guts (lukespeedblitz) - Berserk


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The Chosen Undead (Amendment50) - Dark Souls


Guts is pre-Berserker armor.

Chosen Undead is composite, as they appear at the end of the game.

Victory by death only.

Speed is equalized (to normal human speed).

Both are in-character. The fight is a random encounter.

Both have all available equipment.

Starting distance is 20 ft.


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#2 Posted by Amendment50 (15480 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Vertigo- (17823 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Amendment50 (15480 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: As in composite of possible builds. Capable of using sorcery, pyromancy, bows, melee.

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#5 Edited by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Looks all good to me. I'll have a short post up sometime in the near future.

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#6 Posted by Vertigo- (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: ah. gotcha. should make for an interesting debate then


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#7 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio


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#8 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet. Tag.

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#9 Posted by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

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Guts was a mercenary that had fought through many battles to earn a pretty penny. A lone wolf that that worked and fought for and by himself until he meets Griffith. The leader of the famed Band of The Hawk, Griffith ends up defeating him in armed combat and therefore belongs to him. Fighting side by side through a myriad of battles Guts becomes a prestigious captain within the band. Guts ends up leaving the Band of The Hawk and courtesy of your local demons, obtains a sacrificial brand on his neck. Now day and night he fights demonic creatures that will stop at nothing to kill him.


I'm going to highlight a bit of equipment because I believe it will be integral to his victory here.

Guts wears incredibly durable armor, not as durable as his berserker armor but still quite formidable.

In Berserk #166 Guts gets slammed through a stone pillar by a disciple of Lord Mozgus and he simply gets back up.

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And yet again in Berserk #130, Guts falls from a hundred yards up and picks himself up off the ground. It should be noted that Guts had been poisoned previous to this fight, had a number of wounds, and hadn't slept for days.

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The Crossbow

Guts wears a crossbow on his left arm that is capable of firing a veritable barrage of crossbow bolts that pack a serious punch.

In Berserk #1, Guts uses his wrist crossbow to take down several armored thugs in a bar.

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The Cannon

When Guts first encounters demons under an eclipse he had the misfortune of having his left arm torn off. Later on he would meet a weapons smith that was able to replace his arm with a mechanical arm. A nice twist is that this arm housed a small cannon which is powerful enough to blow tree's in half and demolish incredibly durable demons.

In Berserk #129, Guts uses his cannon arm to blow a hole through a demonic elf. It should be noted her demonic body was durable to tank supersonic flight. On top of this she flew through a number of trees at supersonic speed without a scratch on her body. Suffice to say if the Chosen Undead gets struck with a cannon ball he won't be surviving the encounter.

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Knives and Bombs Oh My!

When he was a mercenary fighting with the Band of The Hawk Guts was trained how to throw knives with deadly accuracy. Part of his standard gear is several small throwing knives that he can toss in a heartbeat. He's accurate enough to throw them into a combatants eye in the heat of a duel and always targets weak points, i.e. an unarmored neck, the eye, between plates of armor etc. Against the chosen undead he could easily use the knives to distract his opponent or maim him, though I don't think he'll require them for the victory.

I would like to highlight the small bombs he carry's on his person. Although they appear to be no bigger than a large marble, they nevertheless pack a deadly punch.

We see from Berserk #159, a single small bomb of his is enough to ravage a demon.

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Suffice to say the Chosen Undead will have problems with getting tagged by a bomblet. Any unarmored areas will be destroyed and the force should knock him off balance or be enough for a fatal distraction considering he won't see it coming.

The Physicals

I'll just touch quickly upon this subject and go more in depth later as it will be integral for a victory. Guts, although human, is incredibly powerful. He's able to swing his sword Dragonslayer, a sword that weight several hundred pounds, as if it were no more than a paperweight. His incredible strength has allowed him to cleave through armored horses and their riders in one blow, cleave through pillars, and you can see in Berserk #111, he cleaves a demonic oak in half.

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So essentially the Chosen Undead will be parrying strikes that have cut through pillars as if they were tissue paper. You'll have to prove that the Chosen Undead can even withstand a number of those blows without dying.

That's just a short post for now. I'll go more in depth with his physicals, tactics, and skill in my next post.

@amendment50 You're up.

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#10 Edited by Amendment50 (15480 posts) - - Show Bio

The Chosen Undead

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At the dawn of the Age of Fire, the Lord of Sunlight Gwyn took it upon himself to link the First Flame upon which all his power was born. Doing this created the curse of the Darksign, a sigil which brands the living and causes them to be reborn after death as an Undead. The Undead were considered cursed and diseased, and corralled to the Undead Asylum in the north. But according to an ancient legend, one Undead would travel from the Undead Asylum to the land of Lords and succeed Gwyn, either linking the First Flame again and continuing the Age of Fire, or abandoning it, becoming a new Lord and bringing on the Age of Dark.

I present to you the Chosen Undead, the most powerful single being in the entire Dark Souls verse as far as we know, and (incidentally) the main protagonist of the original Dark Souls game. Being customized to the player's liking, the Chosen Undead has a huge amount of versatility in the form of ranged weapons and magic, in addition to great strength. But first things first, let's establish the facts. I'll quickly go over some gear, in reference to Guts's opener, and establish a baseline for the Chosen Undead's strength.

Story time:

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Before we get into any scaling or comparisons, let's start with some information in mind.

The land of Dark Souls used to be ruled by the Ancient Dragons, whose power was unchallenged until a few key figures found Lord Souls from the First Flame. The Lord Souls are objects of extremely great power, and with it a small number of otherwise lesser beings gained the power to exterminate all the Ancient Dragons from the world.

These figures are:

Gravelord Nito, who used his Lord Soul to essentially become the Dark Souls verse's (nowhere near cosmic entity level) version of the cosmic entity Death, and manipulated death itself to kill Dragons.


The Witch of Izalith and her daughters, Quelaag, Quelaag's sister (unnamed) and Quelanna, who used the Witch's Lord Soul to empower their magic. All three of these daughters appear in-game, as does the Witch of Izalith in the form of the Bed of Chaos.


Seath the Scaleless, who did not have a Lord Soul at the time (part of one was later bequeathed to him by Gwyn).

"Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon the dragons, and for this he was awarded Dukedom, embraced by the royalty, and given a fragment of a great soul." -Bequeathed Lord Soul Shard description

Meaning that Seath did not have a Lord Soul at the time of the War of Fire that eliminated the Ancient Dragons.

However, Seath participated in the war as well and is shown in the opening cinematic to have killed other Dragons by himself by turning on them, meaning he does (as one of the Ancient Dragons himself) possess power equal to them.


And Gwyn and his Knights, whose Lord Soul (clearly implied to be the most powerful of them) granted them enough power to challenge Dragons themselves. Gwyn himself had bolts that could kill Dragons on his own. Many of his Knights were capable of this as well; I'll get back to that.


All four of these extremely powerful beings are bosses in Dark Souls and are killed by the Chosen Undead.


And one more thing, to be clear: the Ancient Dragons are indeed quite powerful. Dragons are frequently shown to be essentially fantasy-style dragons as you would expect them, with great destructive power. I'll give a few examples of Dragons' power, then move on from this.


The Hellkite Dragon, which is actually a Drake (evidently considered to be weaker than Dragons in general, but certainly weaker than the Ancient Dragons), easily releases bursts of fire that cover an entire bridge. It is also mandatory to be hit by one of its attacks so we know it is possible for the Chosen Undead to survive its attacks, and this is near the beginning of the game when the Chosen Undead is much, much weaker than he is at the end of the game.


Description of Yorgh's Ring from Dark Souls 2 which details the power of the Dragon Sinh:

"Ring of Sir Yorgh, who sought the blood of a dragon and invaded Shulva. Can deflect spells. When Sir Yorgh faced Sinh, the slumbering dragon, he drew blood with a flash of his steel, but Sinh responded by spewing forth the poison that had long brewed within him, blanketing the city in a miasmic cloud."

A city-wide blast of poison from a long-slumbering Dragon.


The Black Dragon Kalameet, an actual boss from Dark Souls which the Chosen Undead killed (with the help of Gough, who grounded it purely so that it could not fly out of reach), had enough power to fill a ravine with dark flame. Kalameet was also one of the Ancient Dragons; the last one according to lore.


Seath, while bestowed with a fragment of Gwyn's Lord Soul (a buff that he still had when fighting the Chosen Undead), covered his entire library archives and filled an entire, massive cavern with crystal from his crystal breath. This is the exact same power he wielded when fighting the Chosen Undead.


And finally, according to Hawkeye Gough, one of Gwyn's most elite who personally hunted Dragons and downed Kalameet with a single Greatarrow, Gwyn's ordinary Knights, while they helped Gwyn fight Dragons, were not any match for them, and it took dozens and dozens of Knights to kill even a single Dragon. But it only takes one Chosen Undead.


While Guts has a good amount of gear at his disposal, he has nothing that the Chosen Undead doesn't have, too, with the exception of the cannon (whose power can almost certainly be replicated anyway).

Though there are countless possible weapons that the Chosen Undead could use, I'll start with parallels to Guts's, for good measure.

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Black Knight Greatsword:

"Greatsword of the black knights who wander Lordran. Used to face chaos demons. The large motion that puts the weight of the body into the attack reflects the great size of their adversaries long ago."

A massive greatsword used by Black Knights, the Knights of Gwyn who helped to slay Ancient Dragons. It's not even the heaviest melee weapon the Chosen Undead can wield, and as with all of them it is possible to wield it single-handedly alongside a shield with sufficient strength.

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Havel's Set:

"Armor worn by Havel the Rock's warriors. Carved from solid rock, its tremendous weight is matched only by the defense it provides.

Havel's warriors never flinched nor retreated from battle. Those unfortunate enough to face them were inevitably beaten to a pulp."

"Greatshield of the legendary Havel the Rock. Cut straight from a great slab of stone. This greatshield is imbued with the magic of Havel, provides strong defense, and is incredibly heavy. A true divine heirloom on par with the Dragon Tooth."

Havel's Armor, alongside Havel's Greatshield, is easily some of the best armor in Dark Souls, and while it is hard to specifically gauge how effective the Chosen Undead's best armor is due to game stats being basically irrelevant, I can provide general feats of durability later which are survivable for the Chosen Undead even with inferior armor.

Rest assured, there is no attack in the game which is intended to only be a one-hit kill regardless of defenses, and so with the best armor available the Chosen Undead can most certainly block it, especially with the aid of an extraordinary Greatshield.

And for the record, the Dragon Tooth, which Havel's Greatshield is directly stated to be on par with, is another weapon of the Chosen Undead's. This is its description:

"Created from an everlasting dragon tooth. Legendary great hammer of Havel the Rock. The dragon tooth will never break as it is harder than stone, and it grants its wielder resistance to magic and flame."

While "never break" is of course not meant literally, it is directly stated to be harder than stone and is obviously extremely durable.

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Heavy Crossbow:

"Powerful large crossbow. While bows require both hands, a crossbow is held in one, but arming each bolt takes time."

A giant crossbow meant to be wielded with one hand.

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"Repeating crossbow cherished by the weapon craftsman Eidas. Its elaborate design makes it closer to a work of art than a weapon. Intricate mechanism makes heavy damage possible through triple-shot firing of bolts, but in fact each bolt inflects less damage."

For rapid fire similar to Guts, Avelyn fires multiple bolts at once but can still be loaded nearly as quickly as a regular crossbow. (Demonstration)

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Gough's Greatbow:

"Greatbow used by Hawkeye Gough, of Lord Gwyn's Four Knights, for dragon slaying. This bow is larger than those used by the famed Dragonslayers. Only their leader, Gough, had the strength to handle it."

The famous Greatbow of Gough, seen above downing Kalameet in a single shot, is also wield-able by the Chosen Undead. Even Gough himself doubts that he could wield it, but alas it is possible as well, and he sells arrows specifically made for it. Considering it has the power to down a Dragon in one shot, I think it has quite comparable damage output to Guts's cannon.

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Black Firebombs and Throwing Knives:

"Black bisque urn filled with black powder. Explodes, inflicting fire damage. Powerful ranged weapon, especially in situations calling for fire damage. A very precious item at low levels. Black Firebombs are especially destructive."

"Throwing knife. Coated with poison. Throwing knives have limited range and accuracy compared to arrows, but offer a quick-and-easy ranged attack. When a foe is poisoned, it will continually take damage over a period of time."

The Chosen Undead has weapons like these at his disposal as well, which are moderately powerful and are quick ranged weapons.

The Firebombs are also powerful enough to hurt demons, capable of doing great damage to the giant Asylum demon, a lesser demon from the Undead Asylum.

Throwing knives inflict poison which does damage over time, and only require a few hits in order to do so.

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Magic- Sorcery, Pyromancy and Miracles:

An area in which Guts has no equivalent, the different schools of magic give the Chosen Undead a huge versatility advantage in this fight. There are a ton of possible spells, so I'll gloss over the more useful ones.

Soul Spears:

"Sorcery developed by Big Hat Logan. Fire piercing soul spear. A symbol of Logan's strength, the soul spear is referenced repeatedly in the legends, and is said to be on par with Lord Gwyn's lightning."

"Sorcery boosted by the knowledge, Logan acquired at the Regal Archives. Fire piercing crystal soul spear. These pale magic spears, sharpened through crystallization. are on par with the armaments of the ancient lords."

There are many variations of this spell, but they essentially fire large magical projectiles. Said to be on par with Gwyn's bolts that peeled through the scales of Dragons, so very powerful indeed and very likely damaging to armor.

Magic Weapon Enchantments:

"Sorcery boosted by the knowledge Logan acquired at the Regal Archives. High magic + crystallization: right weapon. Logan's trials were successful, and the crystal medium facilitated a stronger bond between weapon and soul."

Right-hand weapons can be enchanted to increase power with magic in the same vein as Soul Spears.

Homing Soulmass and Pursuers:

"Sorcery developed by Big Hat Logan. Fire homing soulmass. Life originates in the soul; no wonder the soulmass draws toward it. This sorcery is a window into seeker Logan's methods."

"Sorcery of Manus, Father of the Abyss. Grant a fleeting will to the Dark of humanity, and volley the result. The will feels envy, or perhaps love, and despite the inevitably trite and tragic ending, the will sees no alternative, and is driven madly toward its target."

Enchantments similar to the magic projectile Soul Spears (the former being developed by the same Sorcerer), but which automatically home in on the target (since Guts is a human, he is totally vulnerable to the homing effects of these spells). The latter move more slowly but home even more aggressively, so that they won't stop until they hit their target. If Guts is distracted, they will serve as a better alternative.

Black Flame:

"A pyromancy discovered from the Dark of the Abyss by a pyromancer who wandered Oolacile. Conjure a great black flame in one's palm. Black flames are weighty, and inflict physical damage, enough to smack away the mightiest of the shields."

A pyromancy that breaks guards- meant to break away shield's guards, meaning that a block from a greatsword only will be even more vulnerable to this, and should give the Chosen Undead an advantage in sheer swordplay.

Chaos Storm and Fire Tempest:

"Art of the Flame of Chaos, which engulfed the Witch of Izalith and her daughters. Erects localized chaos fire pillars. The Witch of Izalith, in an ambitious attempt to copy the First Flame, created instead the Flame of Chaos, a twisted bed of life."

"Primal pyromancy of Quelana of Izalith. Erect giant fire pillars in vicinity. The tempestuous raging flames resemble those summoned by the Daughters of Chaos when they challenged the ancient dragons and scorched the very earth."

The former erects pillars of flame surrounding the caster which briefly leave behind pools of lava imprinted in the ground. The latter, one of the "great firestorms" weaved by one the Witch of Izalith's daughters, and therefore some of the magic that killed many Dragons on its own.

Toxic Mist:

"Unique pyromancy crafted by Eingyi, considered a heretic even at the Great Swamp. Create intense poison mist. Why was Eingyi driven from the Great Swamp? One only need cast this pyromancy, a perverse diversion from the art of fire, to find out."

A fog of poisonous mist that, when inhaled, does severe damage internally over time.

Wrath of the Gods:

"Primal form of Force. Create powerful shockwave. Wrath of the Gods was an epic tale that tattered over time and devolved into the modern Force. This primal form of Force emits a shockwave that also inflicts damage."

A very quickly-cast Miracle which emits a powerful shockwave all over the caster's body and does damage, allowing the Chosen Undead to easily space out Guts and damage him at the same time.

Gravelord Greatsword Dance:

"Miracle known only by the servants of the first dead, Gravelord Nito. Giant Gravelord swords jut out in vicinity. Many have died, and many eyes were claimed to realize the Greatsword Dance, a Gravelord ritual known only by his closest servants."

A miracle that summons the cursed swords of Nito the Gravelord, which are powerful enough to launch people into the air when they jut out.

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Great Heal and Replenishment:

"Great miracle cast by advanced clerics. Restores high HP. Great Heal is a long tale, only learned by a select few. No caster will be disappointed by the bountiful life that it yields."

"Common miracle amongst cleric knights. Gradual HP restoration. Beware of the cleric knight blessed by Replenishment, for he shall not fall easily."

One heals very serious wounds instantly so long as it is cast, while the other heals damage over time. Healing abilities grant the Chosen Undead much more longevity in the fight than Guts, as even if he sustains great damage he can recover from it.

It's also worth noting, on the subject of healing, that the Chosen Undead has a flask full of Estus, which also greatly heals injury, and even if it were stolen by Guts it would not heal him, due to it only working on Undead.

Physicals and Gameplan:

Having fought and survived the blasts of the Hellkite Drake, Black Dragon Kalameet and (most impressively) Lord Soul-boosted Seath, all of whom I've demonstrated have extraordinary power in the first section, I think it is very clear that with his best armor, the Chosen Undead's durability is very strong even in comparison to Guts's.

For further proof, taking attacks from enemies that can smash through pillars is child's play to the Chosen Undead, who could do it at his absolute weakest point, in the Undead Asylum.

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Later bosses, like Ornstein and Smough, are shown to be capable of doing this to much larger pillars with even greater ease and power.

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So essentially the Chosen Undead will be parrying strikes that have cut through pillars as if they were tissue paper. You'll have to prove that the Chosen Undead can even withstand a number of those blows without dying.

Both of these fights take place at points where the Chosen Undead is considerably weaker than he is at the end of the game, and these enemies really do have striking power just that strong. Tanking blows on par with Guts's is completely feasible and nothing new to the Chosen Undead at all. The attacks from Dragons that the Chosen Undead can survive display even greater durability than this.

And his ability to kill Ancient Dragons even despite their own durability (Kalameet and Seath, both Ancient Dragons) also demonstrates that he can output damage on this level as well.

All in all, the Chosen Undead can absolutely compete and match Guts in physical strength and durability, as well as easily match him in terms of having powerful gear. His very numerous sorceries and pyromancies give him a huge edge in versatility, allowing him to keep spacing exactly as he wants it throughout the battle, and he is capable of sustaining much, much more damage overall due to his numerous options to heal damage.

This fight should be very favorable for him overall.

(PS: I feel the need to clarify one more point, before I get called out for relying on "game mechanics": The RPG progression system of Dark Souls, lore-wise, is very different from your average RPG- specifically, the character really is growing more physically powerful throughout the entire game as they gain levels. This is because, rather than your average RPG, leveling up is performed by collecting souls from enemies, rather than amassing "exp points" or the like. In other words, by absorbing the souls of others, the Chosen Undead becomes stronger himself. This is emphasized many times throughout the series and is in fact one of its most major motifs.)

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@lukespeedblitz: That's all for my opener. I realize it's a little long but I felt the need to go in-depth in order to justify claims about strength, durability and gear.

Good luck, man!

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#11 Posted by Redzkz (3715 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice I'll probably have a post up tomorrow, I need to create a post for a tourney I'm in.

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#18 Posted by Amendment50 (15480 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: I'm currently on break. If you're willing to continue I can see about posting a rebuttal?