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#1 Edited by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

Guenhwyvar (Forgotten Realms) vs. Red Sonja (Composite)

Guenhwyvar (@floopay) vs. Red Sonja (@wyldsong)
Guenhwyvar (@floopay) vs. Red Sonja (@wyldsong)

Characters:

  • Comic/Novel Guenhwyvar
  • Composite Red Sonja (Dynamite version for base stats)
    • Standard Armor
    • Sword of Sorrow's Blade
    • Blessed Hyrkanian Blade
    • Standard Backup Weaponry (throwing blades/weapons)
  • Morals On
  • At their best

Conditions

  • 20 Meters apart
  • Can see one another
  • Know the other is their enemy

Battleground:

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Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#2 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Looks good my friend. I'll be able to work on an opener tomorrow.

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#3 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: I see you have a few CaVs, so get to this when you can. I will be dropping my opener in a few hours here. That said, while you and I have discussed this, I want to clarify one thing for the readers real quick...

The last debate that I tried to use Sonja in was against @the_red_viper, and while he and I talked about it via PM, it was a debate in which I ended up throwing in the towel on. It's not that I didn't think my choice couldn't beat his choice in characters...it's that I did not make clear my intentions on my character choice, which lead to a bit of a mess on my part, and would have required a massive undertaking to shine some light on the issue. Basically, I would show feats from my intended main era that was to be my baseline for Sonja, then supplement with feats from older and newer eras of Sonja (which were not the same version but I was debating a composite version of the character), and I was not thinking to clarify that these were different eras of Sonja that I was using. So of course there would be bits and pieces that made it seem like Sonja was weaker or not as proficient as I was claiming her to be. TRV, hell of a debater, and he struck at these flaws and weak points, and rightly so. We were getting close to the end before I fully caught on to my mistake, and the only way for me to correct course would have been a full post or two to clarify the scenes that he called into contention, then another post or two to respond to his massive two-parter...and I just didn't have the energy. Too much was going on in my life at the time, so I gave up and conceded on the match.

One day, he and I will complete a CaV to the point of actually calling for voters=)

So that said, and just so we are clear, there are multiple versions of Red Sonja, written by many people. While I will use feats from many of these versions, my intent is that the original Dynamite Red Sonja that started with Oeming's tales and ran in the 2007-2013 era is to be my absolute baseline for skills and physicals. This is the era that I consider to be the peak for the character, and should be more than capable of performing the feats of all other eras. I will do my best to keep any feats used straight for everyone this time around, and will try to keep the confusion to a minimum=)

Alright, intro post will be incoming shortly.

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#4 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Well hell...I am honestly not sure how to run this intro post. Usually I am debating Sonja against an opponent that has arms, legs, weapons, and so on...so this will be quite different. Pitting her physicals, skills, and knowledge, against a non-human opponent, with physicals, skills, and knowledge of a different sort. She has fought intelligent beasties and monstrosities, so it's not like I don't have a solid precedent to draw from...it will just be a different feel debating wise for me overall. I guess to make this simple, and to get us a quick start on this, I will re-purpose a previous intro, and then we will see just where this debate leads us...

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The Origin:

Red Sonja, the Mistress of Blades, the Red Storm, the She-Devil with a Sword...she is known by many names. While there have been a few different backgrounds for Sonja, I am sticking with one of my favorites from the legendary Oeming/Reed run...

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Sonja as a young child watched her family get cut down, and then she was raped by the bandits and left for dead. Hearing Sonja's cries for vengeance, the goddess, Scathach, appears to young Sonja in the woods, and offered to bestow upon her unparalleled skill in battle on the condition that she would never lie with a man unless he defeated her in fair combat. Sonja accepts, and over time, grows to become a legendary warrior. It is later in this run, that we find out that Sonja has actually been reborn a multitude of times over the course of history as an agent of Scathach.

As stated previously, for my debate, I am discussing a composite Sonja. Red Sonja from the 2007-2013 Dynamite era will be my absolute baseline for skills and physicals, with supplemental feats coming from the other eras. I have a theory that overall, all of the versions of Sonja are still connected, thanks to the past life bit, and thanks to the time travel theories added in the current Sonja/Tarzan crossover. Sonja from the 2007-2013 era had some of her most superhuman levels of physicals and feats. To my mind, this would be the end game version of Sonja, where all of her past lives come together in the penultimate version, the version that finally defeats Kulan Gath and breaks the cycle with Scathach. All other versions, fall into her past lives, and as such explain why they are weaker in some areas (physicals, skills, etc) than what I consider to be the main version. They aren't as fully developed skill and physicals wise, being the building blocks upon which the peak version of Sonja was built upon.

There is definitely precedent in the stories for this theory, and as such, it is what I am running with for my debate here.

The Physicals:

Her physicals are definitely in the superhuman ranges. She was given a blessing of "wisdom and war" from her goddess. What does that mean for her? Generally, the people of the Hyborian Age are a cut above the people of most other ages physically, due to it being a harsher time and place, but Sonja is definitely a cut above even that. This has been a fairly consistent fact throughout all of her past lives:

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And yes...Sonja stomps those poor guys. As you can see, she manhandles full grown men, in and out of armor, handling them like they were little better than children. To add to this, and not necessarily presented in this order, but Sonja has the strength to pull a boat to shore through stormy waters pulling it with a rope she is gripping in her teeth, pushes over a massive stone statue, cuts two men in half with a one handed sword strike, breaks heavy chains easily, snaps a wooden pole she is bound to, cuts an armored man in half with a one handed strike, hits a man so hard with an arrow that it blows him straight off of his horse and cracks a stone pillar by kicking an ogre into it:

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There is something that I really need to point out about the strength feats, namely the cutting people in half ones. While they may be well made, Sonja's weapons were normal steel in those scenes. She didn't have adamantium, vibranium, promethium, or any of those other special "-iums" with the swords in those specific scenes. So when she even manages to cut through the thick hide of a shark-man while underwater from groin to head, splitting its upper body in half with an ease akin to cutting butter with a hot knife:

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This should be viewed as a beyond awesome, beyond human, definitively superhuman show of physical strength. And in a majority of her showings, as you have already seen, she is doing things like this one-handed. A quick note, the magic she is thinking about in the above scene is one that allows her to breath underwater. Now, we are going to add a little agility to the mix:

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Yup, she was flipping and making a complete circle around her moving and bucking horse to avoid and then strike down a foe. She has also definitely pulled aerial acrobatics that even Spidey would be proud of:

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For the durability front, Sonja has been smacked into a stone wall, cracking it and jumping back into the fight. As a bonus we'll also add, that while underwater mind you, she was propelled fast enough by a strike from a massive demonic shark to be rocketed through a statue, breaking it completely in half, then recovering quickly and taking out her fishy foe:

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I feel the need to point out in the demonic shark instance, the distance between her and the stone statue. That was a pretty darn short distance, maybe 12-18 feet? She was hit hard enough that in that of a short distance, she had enough initial momentum from the hit, underwater mind you, to break the statue in half and still get propelled a good long distance. That is a stupidly insane amount of force she was hit with to do such. That is a hit/impact that would have killed any normal human and a good number of street levelers...yet Sonja is able to shake it off, pretty insanely quickly, without so much as a broken bone or any signs of injury. And to close out on the durability front, Sonja can fight in a frozen tundra, without signs of discomfort or issue, in her chainmail bikini, plus we can show her leaping from an insanely high wall, and making a landing that would break the bones of anyone else (possibly killing them), without issue:

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In the leaping down from the wall instance, let's note, she is actively looking down on the treetops from an impressive distance. My girl is pretty darn durable. Alright, finally, let's discuss some speed and reflexes. She has feats of FTE burst style movement, often moving faster than her opponents can track her:

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In the scenes where she has the cloak on, what makes that even more impressive, is that she was sick and dying of a plague at the time. As for strict movement speeds...Sonja as a child was able to outrun wolves after being ambushed by them, and as well, outpaced, caught up to and killed a running wolf as an adult. These are creatures that can pull upwards of the 40 mph range, and Sonja, even as a child beat their speeds:

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For a speedy person comparison, Usain Bolt, the world’s fastest man, clocked out at 27.79 mph, and was winded afterwards, something that Sonja was not...this section has gone on long enough, so I am going to close this out with a few scenes involving her awesome reflexes. To start, Sonja and her companion at the time, Valcan, were facing a horde of archers. They both manage to deflect every single arrow that threatened to hit them. As a quick note, the archers were in fact, set and ready for them before they came running out:

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As you can see, that is a veritable swarm of arrows coming from multiple directions, and is basically a feat that is humanly impossible. Not to mention, we have plenty of feats of her reacting to and catching shots fired from behind, like this right here:

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I don't think there is any question that Sonja is indeed, in the very least, a low level superhuman. I will bring up more if needed later on down the road, but I think the point has been made sufficiently for the moment:

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She slices this foes head off exceedingly quickly and proficiently, plus she does it with an axe head that had a broken shaft -- so she wasn't getting a full on swing with it, and the head doesn't fall off until she has a chance to walk a little distance away. Yes, she is a bad arse. Let's talk a little bit about the skill next.

The Skill:

Comparing skill levels to an intelligent, supernatural, dire panther might be tricky. I guess we will just lay out the basics here, and see what else needs to be brought up when the time comes. Of course, Sonja is pretty stupidly skilled. Now, I can show you a ton of scans of her utilizing a variety of weapons, but I hope that this will suffice for the moment:

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She can proficiently use and kill you with all weapons of her various eras. And believe it or not, there is a wide variety of weapons we have seen used over those various eras, from katana to broadswords, and throwing daggers to chakram. It should be noted that she has been reborn numerous times throughout the ages:

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Not only that, she retains her skill and experience, as seen here, when a pampered noble (who was Sonja reborn), first uses a sword in combat, and is proficient in it's use, never having really trained:

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To explain this setup, in case it isn't clear, Sonja hasn't entirely recovered her memories of who she was. She faces a foe, and has a flashback to a past life, and similar situation. Her body knows how to react, and she then takes the head of her foe. So yeah, Sonja has been reborn numerous times throughout the ages, with only a few of these lifetimes being under the Red Sonja moniker. Also, as shown, she maintains the muscle memory and combat skills from her previous lifetimes, although it does take a bit of fighting and sometimes some training to re-awaken these skills. We are obviously discussing Sonja at peak performance here, so the good news is, her skills are fully awakened here. Let it be known, Sonja's first life was in the caveman times, before man had figured out how to even make or use weapons. Want to guess who used the first weapon ever? If you guessed cavewoman Sonja, you would be correct:

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This is why she is so skilled in all weapons of the Hyborean Age...because she was the one who originated the use of weapons in combat and killing in the first place. This is why she has faced off against some of the world's greatest warriors, and beaten the vast majority of her foes. This idea should hold a lot of weight. This isn't a vague sort of statement, and it is pretty cut and dry. Sonja is the Blood Dynasty...she has the blood of Scathach and Kulan Gath, two immortal god sorcerers, running through her veins. She was created by Scathach to face down and defeat Kulan Gath every time he is reborn throughout the ages. Sonja has been fighting evil for a very, very long time...so it should be no surprise that she can turn just about anything into a weapon, from meat cleavers, to rabbit roasting sticks, to even gauntlets:

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That gauntlet feat really deserves a closer look. She tosses it with the strength and accuracy needed to one shot the guy, then makes it across the room in time to catch the gauntlet before it hits the ground. Pretty darn good speed feat there. Another note on that feat, that was from the Marvel era of Sonja. While she had decent senses, her senses in that era were not as enhanced as the more current eras, hence her friend sneaking up on her in the scene. We'll talk more about her senses as needed, just wanted that clarified before we move on. As well, while in mid combat, she figures out how to work an Atlantean tank (she has never seen these prior to this fight mind you), firing it to destroy another tank. I bring this up, because it shows how quickly Sonja can pick up on working with new and alien weapons/devices:

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Also, Sonja isn't just about weapons. She is also more than proficient in hand to hand combat styles:

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And is more than proficient in mixing in some martial arts with her blade/bow/crossbow work:

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Just feel the need to point out...she shot a guy in the head with a crossbow bolt that she wasn't even looking at while jump kicking other people...it goes without saying, Sonja's past life experience, combat skill, and her superhuman stats gives her the ability to do what she does, and compete in the superhuman arena against immortals, gods, demons, and the upper tiers of street levelers. Finally, let's talk a little more about her ranged game. Sonja has a ton of feats in the ranged arena, and while I opted to not use a bow for this battle, we did allow for an assortment of bladed weaponry that can be thrown. While later on in the debate, I may still use a few bow feats to show off her aim, I will try to mainly stick with the thrown weapon feats overall. Keeping this in mind, Sonja was once facing off against a shapeshifter, who was taking on several forms to try and confound her. One of the forms, was a mosquito/dragonfly looking bug. To take it down, she tosses a dagger and clips it's wings:

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That is a small, speedy, erratic target...and she clipped its wings with a thrown dagger. Let me repeat, she clipped a bugs wings with a thrown dagger, at night, by flickering campfire light...I am pretty sure Guenhwyvar will prove to be a speedy and agile target. Just let it be known that Guen will not be facing an average marksman in this battle. As a matter of fact, I am having a hard time remembering any instance where Sonja has actually missed with a thrown blade...let's see if she get's a chance to throw some blades in this debate=)

The Gear:

So, there is nothing really overtly special about her backup weaponry. It is just an assortment of thrown blades and such that she generally seems to be able produce when needed. All such items would be more or less, regular steel weaponry, and the same can be said for her armor. As for her two specific blades, the blessed Hyrkanian blade is made of an element called "hyrkanium", which is said to be the answer to the riddle of steel:

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Except for it's ability to harm and kill powerful beings that mortal weapons generally can't, there is nothing overtly special about it. Like any other blade, it has to be able to hit a foe and cut it to kill it. No energy projection, no stat amping, and no slicing through anything and everything like a pair of adamantium claws. Cutting wise, there is honestly nothing she can do with it that she hasn't already done with her regular blades. That said, it is not a flimsy weapon and not to be taken lightly. As well, she will also have her ebony blade, which was one of the three main Sword's of Sorrow from the series of the same name:

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Each of the three main and most powerful blades from this series was crafted for a specific wielder, with lesser blades being crafted for other characters in the series. Much like her blessed Hyrkanian blade, the ebony blade can harm and kill foes that normal weapons cannot. Overall, the two blades are similar in function and ability. And to make sure this is 100% clarified, we aren't talking about blades that can simply cut through anything and everything here. Their ability to cut seems to about be on par with Sonja's normal weaponry.

More details on these will be provided as needed.

The Plan:

At this point, it's hard to really lay out a plan of action without more intel on Guenhwyvar. I don't know who the faster of the two is here, and I don't know if Guen is more likely to spring out and attack, closing ground as quickly as she can to rend Sonja limb from limb, or to dive out of sight and try for a stealth kill. I know Guen is far more massive than a regular panther (more like dire panther size from D&D if I remember correctly), and while Sonja has tons of experience killing massive beasties and isn't likely to underestimate Guen (having plenty of experience with more or less sentient beasts and monsters), it's hard to say just how this would go without more information.

While Sonja's blunt force durability is pretty bad arse, she will need to watch out for the teeth and claws. Those will prove to be exceedingly deadly, and she has no special resistances there. For the moment, Sonja would probably start with blades in hand, guarded stance, ready to act as she tries to gauge her foe. I will work out the rest when I hear what Guen's initial approach to combat would likely be. If we were talking strictly thugs and the like, Sonja might very well wade in, slaughtering them before they knew what hit them. Against the more dangerous foes, she is likely to be more thoughtful and calculating in her approach. I think a massive, supernatural panther would qualify for the more thoughtful and calculating approach here=)

In Closing:

Just bear in mind, as I am sure you are already aware, except for a few feats here and there, I am starting on the low end. I will get to the good stuff when and where needed. This should give you enough to work with, and at least give you a fairly solid idea as to Sonja's overall capabilities. I have wanted to debate you for awhile my friend, and I am glad that this opportunity came up. I look forward to your response.

As always, the obligatory Sonja hawtness to close out on. Sorry to do it, but it has become kind of a tradition when I debate with one of my indie ladies. I will keep it to one Sonja cosplay per post though=)

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Onto you my friend!

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#5 Posted by Jacthripper (14890 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Edited by HigherPower (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Incredible post, T4V.

I really want to enter the ring with Wyld some time.

Online
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#7 Posted by awshucks (479 posts) - - Show Bio

TAG FOR ****ING VOTE

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#8 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: My dance card is starting to fill up, about to start another one, but I am working on a fresh new batch of characters I want to debate with. Drop me a PM, and we can discuss it, as long as you don't mind a slow rolling CaV=)

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#10 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#11 Posted by vsw (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

Jesus, that was an amazingly Post. Please Tag after every post.

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#12 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: =)

@vsw said:

Jesus, that was an amazingly Post. Please Tag after every post.

Thank you my friend, and will do.

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#13 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @wyldsong:

Love the opener. I did agree to composite Sonja and am looking forward to debating against her. Just so everyone is aware that this was agreed upon prior to the debate. I am also kind of using a composite (though, not really). The comics and novels in Forgotten Realms are canon with one another, at least in the Drizzt series. However, Guen is portrayed as being a lot smaller in the comics than she is in the books. I'll get a bit more into detail on this later; but even in book covers she's shown to be about the size of a normal panther. But evidence from the books contradicts this depiction. Again, I'll explain more later; but just keep in mind that her comic size is smaller than her novel size; but all feats are canon with each other.

Just a heads up, I haven't finished the Drizzt series. I've read 2/3rds of the side series (War of the Spider Queen, Sellsword Trilogy; but not Cleric Quintet), and I'm just finished the Hunter's Blade trilogy. So I've read about 27/46 books. Don't post any spoilers please for any of the latter books. Also, Guenhwyvar was the victim of some publisher/editor/author conflict on magic items, summoned creatures, and etc. As a result, she was originally referred to as a "he", until Salvatore finally got his way and she was officially confirmed to be female. So sometimes you'll see her referred to as a him.

I gotta be heading to bed soon, so I'll also only be doing a soft opener.

Guenhywvar (Forgotten Realms)

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Guenhwyvar had indeed come to the call of many masters, some goodly, most wicked, in the past millenium, and even beyond that. Some she remembered, some not, but Drizzt... Forever would Guenhwyvar remember the renegade dark elf, whose heart was so good and so strong and whose loyalty was no less than the panther's own. -R.A Salvatore, Siege of Darkness

Description: Her first description comes from The Crystal Shard, where she is described, and I quote, as a "huge panther". However, there are a few dozen times in the series where we learn that he is a 600 pound black panther. To put this in perspective, a Bengal Tiger tops out at about 850 pounds and 11 feet or so in length. I think at about 650 pounds they are close to 9.5 feet in length, so Guen is likely around that length.

Strength/Striking Power

Guen is not to be underestimated in this capacity. She is exceptionally superhuman in regards to her physical prowess.

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In the first scan, Guen is able to leap onto the back of a frost giant, and buries her 2 inch fangs into it's back, and takes it down. In the proceeding scan, she is shown doing similar feats to stone giants. Frost and Stone Giants stand between 12 and 18 feet tall, and weight a ton or more. In the latter scans, she's seen to easily overpower verbeeg and hill giants. Who are 500 to 1000 pounds with strength to match. The final scan is her casually overpowering a Half-Ogre and snapping it's arm like a twig. These things stand seven to eight feet tall, with superhuman strength/durability, and weigh 600-800 pounds.

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She is shown to casually propel herself 20 feet vertically, and 30 feet horizontally on numerous occasions. Considering she weighs 600 pounds, this is a pretty impressive feat of strength.

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In this fight against a Barghest shapeshifted into a giant demon, it is revealed she can deal damage to magical beasts and monsters; because her claws are magical in nature.

Speed/Durability

Guen has been shown to casually outpace her master, Drizzt Do'Urden, on multiple occasions. Many consider Drizzt to be on a level that would put him well above the likes of Bullseye/Daredevil, and even contending with the likes of Spiderman. Especially once he acquired his Bracers of Blinding Strike. However, even after acquiring his bracers, Guenhwyvar remains his superior. This category is going to be expanded on in later arguments; but I'll put some quotes in now.

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In the earlier books, she was shown to easily outpace the drow, and even move fast enough to take them offguard. Drow are superior in speed to humans, naturally. They are more akin to elves in terms of speed; but are oftentimes considered superior. Due to superior training. Shown above, she moves faster than they can keep up with, and pounces on one before he recognizes how close she is. In the second scan, she is able to intercept a short-ranged crossbow bolt after it is fired.

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Above she is able to intercept and tank a lightning bolt. I included a scan of that same lightning bolt blowing an earth elemental to pieces; to show how powerful it can be. She tanks it with minimal damage, and keeps going.

Cunning / Abilities/ Senses

She has a number of supernatural abilities to accommodate her strength, speed, and natural durability.

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Guen's senses are more than capable of detecting any skilled drow agent. This is a big deal; because they are renowned for their keen senses and stealth. Drow can track a single echo through miles of winding tunnels, and can track a scent from similar distances. So their stealth is sufficient enough to hide from beings with that level of senses. Guen's is easily superior to those.

She is also shown capable of detecting the supernatural astral projections of a few mindflayers. She is also shown to be intelligent enough to hijack their own spell, and emerge from her figurine; despite not being called. They also make a remark about her hunt with other astral animals (an elk, in this case), and that it is a dance and ritual she has likely performed a million times over. Though likely not actually a million; Mindflayers have thousands of collective years of experience and knowledge to draw on that would lead one to believe that if they are impressed, it's probably because it's impressive.

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A few other abilities are shown above. In her fight with a helldog, she is able to easily outmaneuver and outsmart the beast. It's keen senses not even kind of being able to track her movements as she blindsides it again, and again.

In the latter scans, we see another abilities of hers. Guen possesses the ability to shift between the material and astral planes. Essentially entering the same plane of existence as ghosts and spirits. She can also brings others with her (forcibly or not). This is shown against a goblin shaman, as well as against the spirit beast of a barbarian tribe.

Plan

Guen likely won't take the fight head on. She run away and attempt to either break away from Sonja entirely, and turn this into a hunting game, or force Sonja to pursue her, and then pounce on her in an ambush. Even in a straight fight, which she has done in numerous occasions, she has fought with people with centuries of practice and experience with numerous weapons. More often than not, she has come out ahead.

Realistically, I believe Guen is the physically superior of the two, and that gives her a huge advantage. She has been shown to easily overpower opponents several times her size, and to outpace people who are on a whole different level from usual Peak Humans. However, her disadvantage is gear. She is not armored, though she does have superhuman durability. She has supernatural striking power; but she does not have any weaponry. In a hand to hand fight, this is a landslide victory in her favor. But this isn't hand to hand. With weaponry, there is no debate here that she can take Sonja in a vast majority. In fact, no matter how this plays out, I don't think either of us can prove a solid majority victory here.

However, I believe Guen has the abilities to close the gap between them, and avoid major damage, while causing greater damage against her opponent. She has supernatural senses, abilities and etc. to keep her alive and win this.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#14 Posted by vsw (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

Another good post. This is looking really good.

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#15 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Looking good my friend. It will be a few days, but I will get a response up as soon as I can.

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#16 Posted by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio

Ohh this looks amazing love Drizzt and his amazing feline and Sonya. Mm I will be watching this one closely. T4V

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#17 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Great opener my friend. While I will touch upon elements of your debate and overall plan/assessment, let me just open this up by responding to this one comment below...

In fact, no matter how this plays out, I don't think either of us can prove a solid majority victory here.

That is the kind of thing that makes for a truly good debate, when one side does not hold a solid majority over the other. Now don't get me wrong, I am going to try and paint the picture about why I believe Sonja can truly take the win here, but it makes things far more interesting overall when it isn't a one sided kind of affair. One last thing before I start, I just want to clarify a bit of terminology that I will be using throughout this debate. If I mention "prime Sonja" or "Sonja prime", I am talking about the peak version of Sonja as discussed in my opener. Any other versions, I will refer to as just Sonja or at least try to mention about the version being one of Sonja's other lives. So let's get into this...

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"We thought we were in the eye of the storm, but the winds had shifted and the eye was gone! The moment of calm had passed and now there was only the wind, the Red Storm, the Red Rain...Red Sonja. She saw what we were, and she judged us. Oh God, she judged us. And there was no mercy in her..."

The Stealth/Senses:

Alright, I am going to start by tackling the stealth and senses aspect of things, because with the plans you laid out, this is probably going to be one of the most important topics to handle in this debate. It's important to point out, that Sonja prime is a hunter. She was born and raised in the woods, having had to survive there on her own after her family had been slaughtered:

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This kind of environment, is like home to Sonja. Sneaking, stalking, hunting, and so on through wooded areas...this is Sonja's bread and butter. This is evident through a few of her lifetimes, and a good example of this comes from another lifetime when she was again, just a child - not a young adult, but a child who had not even seen her teens. Sonja had tracked down and stalked a group of hardened mercenaries/warriors/murderers through the woods, where she kills and decapitates their leader, then manages to ambush the group, killing all 20 of them from the trees with a bow:

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Again, this was when she was a kid. She outsmarted and killed 20+ seasoned warriors and bandits all on her own. Let's understand, she stayed in the trees. It took 4 hours, these guys scattered when she first attacked, so she had to track them from the trees, doing the tree running/jumping thing, and took them out...even as a child, Sonja was scary in her level of ability. The other thing to point out, this would have been prior to Sonja being fully awakened with her skills and abilities. With this in mind, let's go ahead and talk about Sonja's senses as an adult. You see, it is difficult to actually get the drop on Sonja, and her senses are top notch. This kind of thing is evident in most of her various lifetimes, such as when she narrowly dodges a surprise arrow by moving her head back slightly:

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Her senses and her awareness, gives her an almost kind of "danger sense". Of course, for the Sonja prime, it gets even better. Such as when a full town sets out to kill her. They spent time feeding her alcohol, getting her beyond drunk, and managed to spirit her weapons away throughout the night. When she was beyond passed out on the table, they set up their archers and so on around her, ready to attack...and again it should be noted, that Sonja was exceedingly drunk and was passed out at the time. Her combat senses kick in when they are about to launch their attack, and she then proceeds to destroy the townsfolk in combat:

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There was more to that fight, but let it be known, the whole town had set out to ambush and kill Sonja. They did everything they could to make sure she was beyond intoxicated and three sheets to the wind before they attacked her. She took them all down, and that quote I used at the start of this post below the opening pic, was from the lone survivor of the incident that Sonja let live. Beyond a form of danger/combat sense, Sonja prime's senses are top notch. While standing on a parapet, far above the city, she is able to spot and snipe foes far below on the street with deadly accuracy:

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Note, multiple story homes and large buildings are far below her in the scan, and she is tagging foes on the streets from her height with deadly accurate kill shots. As well, in the middle of a heavy storm, with rain pattering on buildings and stone streets, wind blowing, she is able to hear the pull of a bow string, instantly noting the location of the hidden sniper, dissuading them with a look:

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And yes, she ignored the person scratching a knife on a post. They weren't poised to attack and did not look to pose any immediate threat. As for her sense of smell...while looking down on a valley filled with hundreds of soldiers, she is able to locate the scent of her foe deep in a cave on the other side of the army...yes, that is darn impressive:

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Her senses are highly acute, and superhuman. If we need more proof of such, let's look at a scene from the Simone run, which would be what I classify as one of Sonja's past lives. Sonja, while wholly and totally blind, stricken with a plague that was killing her, tracks a group of foes through the woods, by sound and smell, sneaking around them faster than they could track her, and was capable of tagging them with perfect head/kill shots:

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That's an awesome archery, stealth, and enhanced senses showing, all in one there...AND...it is also a fantastic tracking feat, since she had to track them through the woods while blind to find them so she could rescue her young wards. This bears repeating, she was sick and dying of a plague. She nor her senses where at their physical best, and she was stricken blind, completely and totally there. For the regular stealth stuff, I really don't feel there is anything for Sonja to worry about. Should Guen choose to try and sneak around, and launch a surprise attack on Sonja, her senses should be superhuman enough to pick up on it, especially if while sick and dying of plague, she can sense and track foes through the woods based on smell and sound, plus can manage to land perfect kill shots on those same foes with a bow while blind. The hard part for Sonja here is Guen's ability to shift between the planes...her senses don't break past dimensional barriers.

That said, it looks much like the description of the mist for Guen's plane shifting in the literary passage, that seems to also be the case in the comics, as when Drizzt and Guen first enter and then return from the astral, there is a black cloud/mist that they are stepping out of. Good news for me, this doesn't seem to be some sort of instantaneous affair like a true blue teleporter, and there is at least some sort of warning sign beforehand. While this is still an awesome boon in Guen's corner and will make her harder to actually track on the field of battle, a dark mist appearing out of thin air gives Sonja a vital visual cue. The question is, is Guen fast enough to capitalize on her plane shift before Sonja can note the mist and/or react to an attack from such? Let me get a little bit of discussion done on Sonja's actual stealth abilities, then we will dive into the speed/reflexes portion of things, and see if we can answer that question.

So...let us talk about deer...they see about 5 times better than a human, and have a much wider field of vision than we do, at least 250 to 270 degrees. Deer also hear higher frequencies than we do, their ears being like tiny satellite dishes that tip back and forth and roll around to pick up, sort out and lock onto various sounds in the woods. Their sense of smell, 500 to 1000 times more acute than a humans, with some sources claiming they can smell you from half a mile away, with thousands of sensitive receptors in their nostrils, which they can use to sort out up to six smells at one time. Sonja was sneaking up on these things as a child, only getting noticed when it was a bit late for the deer to actually do anything about it:

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She was taking them out, up close and personal:

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That is a feat that not many could pull off. Of course, those were scenes prior to a fully awakened Sonja. Still, Guen's senses are a bit beyond that of a deer from what you have presented. Which means I need talk about someone with truly superhuman senses. Someone like, Conan the Barbarian:

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His senses of hearing, smell, sight, and even touch, are all enhanced. He has near perfect vision in the dark:

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Plus there is his insane sense of smell, like when he smelled water that was underground:

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He could feel the vibration on the sand of riders that were long out of their field of vision. These same riders took at least 2-3 days to actually catch up to Conan and his partner:

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He can also tag invisible foes with a thrown sword, and of course, it is nearly impossible to sneak up on him, even when he is sleeping:

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Conan is insanely bad arse. And for a lot of the above feats, he was full on blind in the storyline. Sneaking up on him is pretty much an impossible feat, as is running and hiding from him. One of the few people capable of moving stealthily enough to avoid his enhanced senses, at least until she is actively trying to wake him up, Sonja:

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Appearing suddenly in an open street to aid Conan, and he had no clue she was around until she dropped his foe. Plus, she is also able to avoid detection by Conan, and pull a disappearing act:

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Avoiding Conan's stupidly enhanced senses...no small feat there. The smells of the city helped her to avoid his olfactory senses, but Conan has other enhanced senses as you have seen. Now, I can show you numerous instances of her out-stealthing the senses of regular humans, and pulling some pretty good feats of sneaking around, replete with stealth kills and more...but to be honest, it would do little for my case against the likes of her opponent in this scenario. Now being able to stealth around Conan in one of her weaker past lives, speaks a lot about her stealth capabilities, and I think gives her some solid ground to stand on in the stealth game against Guen.

Guen's senses are more than capable of detecting any skilled drow agent. This is a big deal; because they are renowned for their keen senses and stealth. Drow can track a single echo through miles of winding tunnels, and can track a scent from similar distances. So their stealth is sufficient enough to hide from beings with that level of senses. Guen's is easily superior to those.

Drow's senses are pretty good if this is the case. Question is, are they good enough to blind fight as proficiently and easily as Conan, smell water that is buried beneath a desert floor, sense the vibrations of an army that is days away from their current location, and tag invisible foes with a thrown sword? Sonja is damn good at sneaking around, and with credentials against guys like Conan, I am not sure that it will be a simple task for Guen to detect and track her. We'll see what your response is, and go from there...as for this:

She is also shown capable of detecting the supernatural astral projections of a few mindflayers. She is also shown to be intelligent enough to hijack their own spell, and emerge from her figurine; despite not being called. They also make a remark about her hunt with other astral animals (an elk, in this case), and that it is a dance and ritual she has likely performed a million times over. Though likely not actually a million; Mindflayers have thousands of collective years of experience and knowledge to draw on that would lead one to believe that if they are impressed, it's probably because it's impressive.

I agree it's impressive, though I am not sure how it would work in the context of this battle. Being able to sense astral forms from a Prime Material plane is pretty cool, but I am not sure about it's ability to aid Guen in this particular fight. So for now, let's move on to the speed and reflexes portion of things...

The Speed/Reflexes:

As for speed, with Guen's wall run, I think at least her overall travel speed might be faster than that of Sonja. I honestly never came into this thinking that wouldn't be the case. Although, her combat and overall speed aren't anything insurmountable for Sonja based on the evidence provided so far. I think for the moment, I will have to wait and see your expanded arguments on this section, because I cannot base much around the idea of her being faster than Drizzt or blitzing Drow without the feats from such. I mean, I could probably dig up my old D&D books, look up the stats for Drizzt, Drow and the bracers...but I am not quite sure the game stats line up with the actual feats. So for now, let's talk about comparisons with the crossbow bolts and magical lightning attacks.

I think we get the idea that Sonja is an exceedingly casual arrow and crossbow bolt timer. We already saw such in the first post, with her catching bolts fired at her from behind, dodging arrows fired from unseen archers at the last second, and deflecting arrows fired from a literal horde of archers, coming at her from every which way. So I think her reflexes are already a match for Guen, at least in comparison to the panther's own crossbow bolt feat, if not superior. Moving on to the magical lightning blast. From the scans shown, it is really hard to tell where Guen was in relation to the lightning blast. It's still a good feat, but the level of impressiveness reflex and speed wise is kind of hard to gauge. Durability wise, very impressive though=)

Let's take a quick look at some magical lighting and other various magic attacks that Sonja has dealt with. Sonja has plenty of feats of her dodging area attacks, like weaving around magical lightning, deflecting magical blasts, dodging magical blasts and so on:

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A lot of these are more less at point blank ranges, and she can be seen dodging around magical lighting type effects in a Spider-Man-like fashion. Some of that is from the Sonja prime era, and some of that is from other lifetimes, but all of it I find to be fairly impressive. Below, she faces off against Thulsa Doom, who fires off a laser like blast. It is a beam that he can reflect/redirect, split, and fire off from multiple fingers at once. It is also something she managed to dodge in point blank ranges, while dancing around Thulsa, with only two slight burns from the attack, and he isn't able to take her down or stop her with it. At best, he singed her twice with a multi-pronged, multi-directional, point blank attack:

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**Note: The very next panel, he stops firing, getting ready to set up some big attack when Sonja takes him down.

With this in mind, I don't see any issues with Sonja being able react to Guen's speed, at least based on what we have seen thus far. She has insane reflexes against arrows and crossbow bolts, and then can dodge, deflect, and avoid point blank and area of effect magical lightning and other type attacks, even ones where the effect can be redirected and holds up like a field of lasers. As a quick side note before moving on, while I cannot show you Sonja tanking a magical lightning blast, since she generally avoids such attacks, I can show you her dealing with electricity directly. A regular size electric eel can shock with up to 860 volts, which means this much larger eel, is probably putting out quite a bit more:

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And there is also the time she took a shock from electricity powering a massive machine, which was shown to be enough to flat out kill a human a few pages later:

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While not an electrical attack, in the new Red Sonja series, she drives a diesel truck into a drug lab, causing a massive explosion, that kills all of the bikers/drug dealers in the lab. You'll note, that she didn't jump out of the truck:

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And this is her in a scene that happened right after. She was a little scuffed up, but otherwise, none the worse for wear:

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While I find these to be awesome feats of durability, neither character will be performing electrical attacks against one another, nor will they be blowing each other up, at least not that I am currently aware of. What they will have to deal with is blunt force trauma, and cutting, slashing, stabbing and so on. So, let's move on to a more pertinent topic in this little discussion, and let us also move on from my obvious attempt to show off feats that are neither here nor there for this particular battle=)

The Strength/Striking:

Realistically, I believe Guen is the physically superior of the two, and that gives her a huge advantage. She has been shown to easily overpower opponents several times her size, and to outpace people who are on a whole different level from usual Peak Humans.

I do believe that Guen is physically imposing, and will make for a great match...I just don't know that I believe she is completely physically superior. Not when Sonja has feats like, crushing a skull to powder in her two hands, deflecting blows from the massive Thunderbull, and pulling the massive and fiery Roc down after she had netted it:

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I mean couple that with the feats shown in my previous post, and we have a character that is at least, a low level tonner. Not to mention, her level of skill coupled with her physical stats, allows her to successfully and effectively fight characters that are far stronger than she is. Take for instance, Thor:

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This guy is definitely not low level on the tonner scale. Yet Sonja manages to take him down through superior skill, speed and well placed sword strikes:

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Although if taking down massive giants and other large beasts would feel more appropriate, well we have tons of that on hand:

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Again, note the ease that her sword strikes slice off the body parts of her massive foes. From the latest run, she was trying to reawaken a trolls true nature, and it was a long story, but his newfound passiveness was causing harm to the town because he was letting too many people cross the bridge into the small town, and these travelers were using up their resources. This troll was strong enough to crack the ground with a hit and yank trees out of the ground to use as weapons. Sonja was able to rock this foe with a staff, even at points causing the ground to break up a bit beneath the troll thanks to the hits she was landing. Even knocking rocks loose on the ledge near them, seemingly from the force of the impact:

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I can't show anymore of the fight here, but she gets him to snap, wherein he cracks the ground with a strike, then yanks a tree out of the ground to use as a club. They end up coming to an understanding, and the troll ends up helping the town again. As a bonus, we'll add one of my favorites, when she slices and dices the massive Surtr, a titan that was capable of cutting a small mountain in half, and towered over the city he was threatening:

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Let it be noted, she did need help to finally finish off the god killer, Surtr, but she did do the bulk of the work on her own. Now these feats differ from Guen's feats of taking down giants and such, but Sonja is no less experienced at taking down larger and far more powerful foes than herself. While her strength levels do place her in the low level tonner ranges, she is very effective in how she uses her speed, skill, and agility coupled with her strength.

And because I can...Sonja rocking a great white shark with a punch...

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Let's move onto the plan and some rebuttals then close this thing out...

The Rebuttals/Plans:

Guen likely won't take the fight head on. She run away and attempt to either break away from Sonja entirely, and turn this into a hunting game, or force Sonja to pursue her, and then pounce on her in an ambush.

Sonja isn't likely to give in to a blind chase, and if this turns into a hunting game, I think I have laid out enough to show that this is a game Sonja can play fairly well. Sonja has the speed and reflexes to casually deal with crossbow bolts, arrows, magical lightning and so on, plus the speed to pull FTE bursts, outrun four legged creatures on foot, and more...so at the moment, I don't see Guen's speed as being insurmountable. Guen may take it in travel speed, but as previously stated, I would need to see your expanded arguments to see if her combat speed truly poses a threat. Depending on your responses, I have more to discuss and bring up on this front, but at the moment, I am of the belief that Sonja has the superior combat speed and reflexes.

The stealth aspect, I don't believe Guen is going to be sneaking up on Sonja, at least not without the aid of her plane shifting. Sonja's senses and combat awareness are just too good. Couple that with her reflexes and speed, even if Guen did manage to ambush Sonja, she is more than quick enough to respond with her deadly blades. To add to this, with her strength, she could also definitely rock a 600 lb panther with a surprise punch or kick, which I think should be fairly evident from the feats presented. It honestly won't take Sonja long to put two and two together with the mist and Guen's disappearing and reappearing act...she has dealt with magical beasts, wizards and gods. That blackish mist will most definitely stand out.

She has been shown to easily overpower opponents several times her size, and to outpace people who are on a whole different level from usual Peak Humans.

Same thing can be said for Sonja. She has fought and defeated immortals, gods, superhumans, a variety monsters large and small and more.

However, her disadvantage is gear. She is not armored, though she does have superhuman durability. She has supernatural striking power; but she does not have any weaponry.

Guen has other advantages and I am sure more will be laid out as this debate progresses. Her teeth and claws are more than sufficient to do some damage, and coupled with her strength and speed, it makes for a dangerous combination. Sonja's armor, honestly isn't much protection. She has superhuman durability, plus her skill, speed and reflexes, which is what tends to get her through a fight. While in this post, I am simply making observations based on the information presented thus far, it still remains to be seen if Sonja's abilities coupled with her blades are actually enough to take down a foe of Guen's caliber.

In a hand to hand fight, this is a landslide victory in her favor.

Well, Sonja is a low level tonner that rocked a great white with a punch. Without weapons it would be more in Guen's favor, but I wouldn't call it a landslide victory=)

With weaponry, there is no debate here that she can take Sonja in a vast majority. In fact, no matter how this plays out, I don't think either of us can prove a solid majority victory here.

That is what we aim to find out, and if this ends up being the case, it will be a hell of debate=)

However, I believe Guen has the abilities to close the gap between them, and avoid major damage, while causing greater damage against her opponent. She has supernatural senses, abilities and etc. to keep her alive and win this.

All I can do is base my assessment on what I have seen thus far. With new information, this is very likely to change. Neither of us have presented the full brunt of our cases, so I expect that the landscape will change. That said, the way I see it currently, Guen tries to break off to do the sneaking thing, and before she can make cover, Sonja let's loose with thrown blades, either ending the fight right there, or slowing Guen enough to force a confrontation. As a reminder, Sonja is very accurate and very dangerous with a thrown blade, even swords. A good example of this, Sonja is standing on the deck of one ship. An archer on another ship, is on the mast (crow's nest), sniping people on Sonja's ship. The ships aren't particularly close, waves are rocking them around, wind is blowing hard enough to billow the sails and propel the ships, and Sonja, doesn't have a bow, just her large, non-aerodynamic sword. Sonja pulls an inhuman, and impossible feat (I know, imagine that). She throws her sword from the deck of her rocking and swaying ship, and buries it through the chest of the sniper way up high on the mast of the opposing rocking and swaying ship, wind blowing and all that, with her thrown blade ending the threat:

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And that isn't even the prime version of Sonja. She has insane aim and accuracy. In a direct confrontation, a wounded Guen won't last long, and Sonja's ranged game makes it likely that Guen will take some damage before she can close the distance, or break off to try and sneak around. In a game of cat and mouse, on the off chance that Guen can make it to cover before taking some damage, Guen will have a hard time tracking Sonja. She is more than proficient at stealth and sneaking around. With plane shifting though, it will make it hard for Sonja to track Guen. So it is only a matter of time until one finds the other, and the fight starts in earnest. I will maintain for the moment that between Sonja's skill, senses, speed and reflexes, that she is more than fast enough to respond to a sneak attack from the crafty and wily Guen...we shall see, though=)

In Closing:

Well, there we are, my second entry into this debate. I cannot wait to see what comes next, and I am looking forward to continuing this conversation with you my friend. Of course, I have more Sonja cosplay to close out with...

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Onto you my friend.

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@wyldsong:@jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @destinyman75:

Drizzt/Drow

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A lot of feats scale off of the drow and Drizzt Do'Urden. So I'm going to do a little bit on these before I continue to talk about Guenhwyvar.

Average Drow

The drow are raised in the Underdark. They have developed the ability to see heat through the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums. However, seeing as they live in a world of absolute darkness, their other senses have developed far beyond where their sight has, and has given skilled drow hearing and scent nearly on the level of Matt Murdock (comic Matt).

Fighting Skill

I can pull this up later if you'd like; but it is mentioned several times that the average drow fighter is more skilled than most elite fighters of the other races. This is a comparison made from the perspective of humans, elves, goblinoids, and dwarves alike. I can provide dozens to hundred of examples of this throughout the books if needed.

Tracking/Senses

As shown below, all drow are taught to track their targets via sound more than hearing. It is an ability ALL drow possess. They are so skilled they can track a single echo through miles of winding tunnels with absolutely ZERO light. They live in absolute darkness.

The clacking resounded clearly, but, echoing off the stone walls of the tunnels, it provided a confusing beacon for the hunting drow. Hatch’net let Drizzt steer their course and was impressed by the way the student soon discerned the pattern of the echo riddle. -R.A Salvatore, Homeland

This is further explained in another passage. Even Drizzt Do'Urden, one of the most skilled stealth fighters in fictional history, fears that his light footfalls can be tracked by the drow.

The drow ranger cringed with every step, fearing that echoes were resounding along the blank stone walls hundreds of yards away. This was the Underdark, a place negotiated less by sight than by hearing and the sense of smell. -Starless Night, R.A. Salvatore

This is further confirmed when Catti-Brie takes extra precautions to keep her scent as bland as possible, after recalling advice given to her by Drizzt Do'Urden in the past:

Drizzt had told her that the dark elves could track enemies by their scent for miles through the Underdark's twisting caverns, and it seemed silly to Catti-brie to bath in aromatic oils and possibly aid her enemies. -R.A. Salvatore

~End Section~

Drizzt Do'Urden

When I say Guen is faster than Drizzt, I don't just mean footspeed. I also mean reflexes and etc. I'll provide a couple feats of his speed below, and a respect thread. But to say the least, he's one of fantasy's greatest fighters for a reason.

Below (sorry for the poor quality) is Drizzt reacting to a Quickling. It IS faster than him, and can tag/outpace him. However, he shows on multiple occasions to be able to tag and react to it. This thing is fast enough to speed down a mountainside while doing laps around every tree it comes across in seconds. It is massively FTE.

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The next scene is Drizzt before he received any training. His father throws ten coins at him, randomly, and tells him to grab all of them before they touch the ground. These things fly across all his flanks, and back. In a whirl of motion, he is able to grab all 10 before they touch the ground.

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There are several instance showing that in combat, Drizzt can reach the FTE level against opponents.

Drizzt Respect Thread

Guenhwyvar

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Speed/Reaction

Here is an example of Guen moving FTE against a giant, and too fast for Drizzt to recognize that she'd even moved or lept.

Guenhwyvar wove between a giant's legs as it turned and launched itself as high and far as its sleek muscles could take it. Just as the verbeeg standing over Drizzt started to swing its club at the prone elf, Drizzt saw a shade of black cross in front of its face. A jagged tear lined the giant's cheek. Drizzt understood what had happened when he heard Guenhwyvar's padded paws set down on the table and propel the cat further across the room.

-R.A Salvatore, The Crystal Shard

This is a longer passage. Guen easily gains ground on a Verbeeg. While they are considered heavy footed, it should also be noted that they are still faster than humans. With every 1 of their strides equaling 2-3 of ours. She then sets up a cunning ambush far up the road. This is a good showing that she is cunning, and capable of laying traps.

The great panther loped along over the broken stones, easily gaining on the heavy-footed giant. Soon Guenhwyvar could hear the verbeeg's labored breathing as the creature struggled with every leap and climb. The giant was making for Daledrop and the open tundra beyond. But so frenzied was its flight that it didn't move off the face of Kelvin's Cairn to the easier ground of the valley. It sought a straighter route, believing it to be the quicker path to safety. Guenhwyvar knew the areas of the mountain as well as its master, knew where every creature on the mountain laired. The cat had already discerned where it wanted the giant to go. Like a shepherd's dog, it closed the remaining distance and scratched at the giant's flanks, veering it into the direction of a deep mountain pool. The terrified verbeeg, certain that the deadly warhammer or darting scimitar weren't far behind, didn't dare stop and engage the panther. It surged blindly along the path Guenhwyvar had chosen.

A short time later, Guenhwyvar broke away from the giant and raced ahead. When the cat reached the edge of the cold water, it tilted its head and concentrated its keen senses, hoping to spy something that could help it complete the task. Then Guenhwyvar noticed a tiny shimmer of movement under the sparkles of the first light on the water. Its sharp eyes sorted out the long shape lying deathly still. Satisfied that the trap was set, Guenhwyvar moved back behind a nearby ledge to wait.

The giant lumbered up to the pool, breathing heavily. It leaned against a boulder for a moment, despite its terror. Things seemed safe enough for the moment. As soon as it had caught its breath, the giant looked around quickly for signs of pursuit, then started forward again. There was only one path across the pool, a fallen log that spanned the center, and all of the alternative routes around the pool, though the water wasn't very wide, weaved around sheer drops and jutting rockfaces and promised to be slow going. The verbeeg tested the log. It seemed sturdy, so the monster cautiously started across. The cat waited for the giant to get close to the center of the pool, then charged from its hiding place and launched itself into the air at the verbeeg.

The cat landed heavily into the surprised giant, planting its paws in the monster's chest and rebounding back toward the safety of the shore. Guenhwyvar splashed into the icy pool, but scrambled quickly out of the perilous water. The giant, though, swung its arms wildly for a moment, trying to hold its precarious balance, then toppled in with a splash. The water rushed up to suck it down. Desperately, the giant lunged for a nearby floating log, the shape that Guenhwyvar had recognized earlier. But as the verbeeg's hands came down, the form it had thought to be a log exploded into movement as the fifty-foot water constrictor threw itself around its prey with dizzying speed.

The unrelenting coils quickly pinned the giant's arms to its side and began their merciless squeeze. Guenhwyvar shook the freezing water from its glistening black coat and looked back to the pool. As yet another length of the monstrous snake locked under the verbeeg's chin and pulled the helpless monster under the surface, the panther was satisfied that the mission was complete. With a long, loud roar proclaiming victory, Guenhwyvar bounded off toward the lair. -R.A Salvatore, The Crystal Shard

~End Section~

Stealth

Here are two quotes. The first is Drizzt looking for where Guen was waiting in ambush. Despite all his knowledge, tracking, senses, experience, and time with Guen, he is unable to spot her. Later, she leaps into battle and almost collides with him. Showing that she was basically within striking distance of him, and completely undetected.

Drizzt looked all around for Guenhwyvar, but the panther was nowhere to be seen. He had instructed the cat to hold back until the main fighting started and trusted that Guenhwyvar would do as told.

-R.A. Salvatore, The Silent Blade

And he nearly collided in midair with another soaring, dark form. Guenhwyvar, leaping strong, crossed by the descending drow and crashed into yet another bush atop a shadowy goblin form.

-R.A. Salvatore, The Silent Blade

In the following scene, Guen sprints down a hallway to catch a patrol of drow. They are actively aware of how close Drizzt and Guen are; but they still are unable to detect Drizzt. Drizzt doesn't approach for fear of being detected, yet Guen is able to sprint off, catch them, scout, and go back. This is in the Underdark; where they can see her heat and there is nothing even remotely resembling a panther living in the area that wouldn't put them on high alert.

“Go, Guenhwyvar,” he whispered to the cat. “View our guests and return to me.” The panther sped away through the shadows circumventing the large cavern. Drizzt sank low into the rubble, listened, and waited. Guenhwyvar returned to him only a minute later, though it seemed an eternity to Drizzt.

-Exile, R.A Salvatore

This is probably the BEST stealth feat of Guen's. Prior to this scene, Drizzt had failed to sneak into the Frost Giant's base. They were all on high alert, in an area that is designed to prevent stealth based ambushes. There are mirrored walls/ceilings and they are bright white (the place is called Shining White). Yet later, Drizzt finds himself alone and surrounded in the princess's chambers after being chased there. He all but resigns to his defeat; until Guen reveals that she is behind the princess, ready to strike.

This is a ridiculous feat of stealth. Not only did she navigate undetected; but she made it into the princess's chambers, through dozens and dozens of alert guards. Again, not even Drizzt realized she was even present.

Drizzt eyed her hatefully, and thought to do as she asked. Before he could begin to calculate his chances of getting the blade and quick-stepping ahead to at least score a hit or two upon Gerti's pretty face, however, a low and feral growl from the side of the giantess caught his, and her attention.

Gerti turned and Drizzt leveled his gaze, and every giant in the chamber followed suit, to see Guenhwyvar perched on a ledge barely fifteen feet from Gerti, level with her pretty face.

The giantess didn't blink and didn't move. Drizzt could see her tightening her grip on the white stone arms of her great throne. She knew the panther could get to her before she could even raise her hands in defense. She knew Guenhwyvar's claws would tear at her blue and tender skin.

-R.A. Salvatore, The Two Swords

~End Section~

Strength/Durability

She has been shown to easily overpower opponents several times her size, and to outpace people who are on a whole different level from usual Peak Humans.

Same thing can be said for Sonja. She has fought and defeated immortals, gods, superhumans, a variety monsters large and small and more.

I have no doubts Sonja is strong. I also have no doubts that she has handled many opponents as strong, and several times stronger than Guen throughout the years. But I am not talking about defeating monsters. I am talking about overpowering.

In The Hunter's Blades trilogy, Frost Giants were shown to casually throw rocks that were a few hundred pounds several hundred meters at their targets....accurately. Now then, Guen never overpowered a Frost Giant; but she was able to stagger one, and they struggled to overpower her enough to easily tear her off of them (scans already posted, I believe).

In the Paths of Darkness, she casually overpowered Half-Ogres, who are low tonner levels of strength. In those books, they were casually shattering stone, knocking down trees with one swing, ragdolling human warriors, and the likes. Guen is able to casually overpower them (scan posted).

Below we have Guen using her momentum, size, and strength to wrestle a Stone Giant off a ledge. I have already posted a scan prior of her doing a similar feat; but this particular one comes from the Paths of Darkness trilogy, which takes place later. Just a showing of consistency in her strength.

Stone Giants are almost as large as Frost Giants. The primary difference between the two being location and intelligence. They weigh close to a ton, and have strength to match. Guen takes one off a ledge, and in full momentum gets slammed into the cliff nearby. Later she is shown hurt, and clawing her way back to safety; but she is fine. Later in the chapter she's running around tackling Stone Giants again, so she does brush it off.

Guenhwyvar soared down thirty feet from her perch to slam the bending behemoth on the shoulders, a six-hundred-pound missile of slashing claws and biting teeth. Caught by surprise and off balance, the giant toppled over the stone wall and out into the air, taking Guenhwyvar with it.

Drizzt, dodging yet another stubborn kick, cried out for the cat, but had to turn away, had to focus on the remaining, kicking giant. As the plummeting giant rolled over Guenhwyvar sprang again, flying out wide and far, back toward the cliff where Wulfgar stood battling his mental demons.

The cat slammed hard against a ledge, far below the barbarian, and there she desperately clung, battered and shaking, while the giant continued its bouncing descent. Down, down the giant fell, a hundred feet and more before it settled, battered and groaning, upon a rocky outcropping.

-The Silent Blade, R.A. Salvatore

I've already shown she can casually leap 30 feet horizontally, or 20 feet vertically from a standing position. With zero effort. However, it is later revealed that with a short run, she can easily clear 50 feet or more by Drizzt. This is from the deck of one ship to another, so this isn't quite the full extent of her abilities.

"I will bring in Guenhwyvar soon," he explained to Regis and Bruenor. Captain Vaines came up again, a nervous expression stamped on his face-one that told the drow that, despite his many years at sea, Vaines had not seen much battle. "With a proper run the panther can leap fifty feet or more to gain the deck of our enemies' ship. Once there she will make more than a few call for a retreat."

-The Silent Blade, R.A. Salvatore

In Passage to Dawn, they confront the most successful pirate campaign in the series. At their home base, Guen launches herself into an archers nest, tanking several arrows with no regard and with no real showing of being damaged. She easily overpowers all the men in the nest.

There, above her, mighty Guenhwyvar charged the archers' nest, taking arrow after stinging arrow, but never veering and never slowing. The archers were standing then, and so the woman wasted no time in putting an arrow into the side of one's head, then taking down another. She took aim for a third, but held the shot, for Guenhwyvar leaped in among the nest then, scattering the band. One man tried to scramble up the back side, farther up the mountain, but a great black paw caught him in the back of his leg and tore him back down.

-R.A Salvatore, Sea of Swords

I will provide more on this feat later; but here Guen easily tackles and overpowers a drow riding lizard. These things have a main body between 10-12 feet long, and a tail of equal length; for a total of 20-24 feet.

Dantrag was just turning his mount about for a fifth pass when Guenhwyvar barreled in. Over went the lizard, with Dantrag strapped in for the ride. The weapon master managed to somehow get loose of his bindings as the beasts continued to roll, and he came up, quite shaken, facing the ranger.

"Now the fight is fair," Drizzt declared.

-R.A. Salvatore, Starless Night

~End Section~

Skills and Abilities

This is the one that's new to both of us. Debating with or against something that has no arms, armor, weapons, or h2h. But simply, a monsterous beast with legs, claws, and fangs. But I believe Guen has shown her ability more often than she is given credit. Being able to fight against many of the most skilled race in Forgotten Realms.

In the scan below, she casually overpowers a host of experienced pirates and sailors. They had taken down several well trained sailing crews, and were tracked down by Drizzt and the crew. They basically surrender moments after the giant cat appears into their ship and confronts them. They are all armed and ready, and they have little to no chance, even with arms and armor, of handling Guen. She is shown to easily overpower any soldier in her path.

interrupted in wild battle. The confusion on the caravel's bow was no less as Guenhwyvar, all teeth and claws she seemed, slashed and tore through the mass of men who wanted nothing more than to be away from this mighty beast. Many were pulled down under those powerful claws, and several others simply turned to the side and leaped overboard, ready to take their chances with the sharks

-R.A. Salvatore, Passage to Dawn

Below we see Guen casually out-reacting seasoned drow warriors in Starless Night. She doesn't kill anyone; but your average drow is still significantly more trained than even a seasoned human fighter, and a well-trained drow is considered to be greater than elite warriors of most other races (even the elves, on fortified ground, doubted they could take a drow army of equal or comparable size).

She fired again, nailing a drow to one of the side doors in the circular room. Entreri's dagger bit hard into a drow heart; Drizzt's scimitars crossed up an opponent's attack routine, then countered, one over the other in opposing, diagonal, downward swipes, drawing a neat X on the draw's throat. But this was Guenhwyvar's show. Inside the crowded room, nothing in all the world could have created more general havoc and panic than six hundred pounds of snarling, clawing fury. Guenhwyvar dashed this way and that, swiping one drow on the backside, tripping up another with a bite to the ankle. The cat actually killed no dark elves in that wild rush through the room and into the corridor, but left many wounded, and many more fleeing, terrified, in its wake.

-R.A. Salvatore, Starless Night

Drow patrol members are among the more seasoned of drow fighters. They ride lizards who can climb on walls and ceilings as easily as they run along flat ground. Here, Guen leaps 25 feet into the air and easily takes one down.

They climbed a walkway ringing another stalactite, going to the highest worked levels of the cavern. Still there were drow above them, they knew, hiding in the shadows, on their lizard mounts, carefully picking their shots. Guenhwyvar stopped suddenly and sprang straight up, disappearing into a cluster of hanging stones fully twenty-five feet above the walkway. Back down came the mighty panther, raking and gouging the lizard it brought along. The two crashed to the stone wall.

-R.A. Salvatore, Starless Night

Here is a continuation on a previously shown feat. Guen kills this lizard before being killed herself (Guen can't actually be killed in the Prime Material Plane; but she gets wounded enough to be dismissed). As you can see, she easily overpowers and slaughters something twice her size. A multi-ton creature in terms of strength and carrying capacity, and one of the fiercest things one could hope to encounter in the underdark (there are more dangerous things; but they are super uncommon). She gets blindsided and cut with a weapon that cuts through stone and steel like paper called Cutter.

They were no more than a tumbling ball of fur and scales, Guenhwyvar and the subterranean lizard locked in a raking, biting jumble. With its longer neck, the lizard had its head far to the side, biting at Guenhwyvar's flank, but Guenhwyvar stubbornly kept a firm hold on the base of the lizard's neck. More deadly still, the panther's claws were inside the lizard's reach, affording Guenhwyvar a distinct advantage as they rolled. The panther's front claws kept a tight and steady hold, while Guenhwyvar's rear legs tucked in close and began a vicious kicking rake, tearing at the reptilian beast.

Victory was at hand for the beleaguered panther, but then Guenhwyvar feft a wicked sting in the back, the sting of a sword. The panther whipped its maw about in a frenzy, tearing out a chunk of the lizard's shoulder, but the pain brought blackness, and Guenhwyvar, already battered from the run along the walkways, had to give in, had to melt away into an insubstantial mist and follow the tunnel back to the Astral Plane.

The torn lizard rolled about on the stone, bleeding from its neck and sides, its belly hanging free of its skin. It crept away as swiftly as it could, seeking a hole in which to crawl.

-R.A. Salvatore, Starless Night

Finally, here is a good showing of Guen using her planeshifting abilities. She's fighting and easily overpowering a group of orcs. Guen doesn't typically use this ability when she's trying to protect her companions. However, when her goal is to win a fight, and she no longer has to worry about protecting her friends, she free to no longer use her body as a meat shield. In combat, Guen dissolves her body into mist, and ambushes her opponent from the opposite side.

One orc noted that distinctive feline shape and slashed at the mist, its sword crossing through without finding a hold. The frustrated orc growled and reversed its cut, but the mist became more corporeal and a powerful cat's paw batted the sword aside before it could gain any momentum. Back legs twitching easily, the panther flew into the orc's face, laying it low, and a quick rake left the brute howling and squirming on the field while mighty Guenhwyvar sprang away to find her next victim.

-The Two Swords, R.A Salvatore

~End of Section~

Rebuttal

I'm still going to maintain physical superiority as one of Guen's advantages (Read the full thing before addressing this point).

  • I've shown her going FTE against creatures who are considered not only superior in speed and reflexes to humans and elves; but whose average training puts them above elite warriors of almost any other race. I've even provided instances of her appearing as a blur to the likes of Drizzt (the protagonist of the series) in close combat.
  • Sonja, by your own admission, is a low tonner level of strength. I've provided several examples of Guen overpowering low tonner characters casually, and staggering creatures who are Spiderman level in terms of strength. Can she overpower the latter? Absolutely not; but she is a little above the low tonner level of strength.
  • I've provided examples of her getting hit by crossbow bolts, swords (of superior metals to steel), and arrows. While some of these hurt her and even cause her to bleed, she has shown to definitively have the ability to tank piercing/slashing weapons and keep going. So it'll take a lot to put her down. As for her blunt force durability, she frequently tanks hits from creatures who weigh 1 ton with Spiderman levels of strength and keeps fighting. There are no peak humans who can compete with her in h2h without the use of a weapon, due to her blunt force durability.

Overall, Strength, Speed, and Durability go to Guen. Are these physical abilities significantly above Sonja? I'd say no. They exist; but they aren't indomitably higher than Sonja's physical abilities. It's more like a slight advantage in each category. I have no doubt Sonja has fought SEVERAL opponents who were more enhanced in every category and come out the victor, much the way Guen has. But the advantage definitely is there.

Beyond this, we have Guen's skillset. In this environment, I think Guen is going to be able to use her stealth to her advantage. I've proven that she has the ability to avoid detection against someone who is one of the best trackers in Forgotten Realms. Not only that; but he knows her intimately and has the enhanced sensory advantages of being a drow, and even he holds faith that she is still there, as he can't actually discern her location.

I've also shown her pulling a nigh-impossible covert mission of her own making against the Frost Giants. Showing ingenuity, tactical thinking, and the instincts of a legendary hunter. As provided earlier, the Mind-Flayers assumed she had the hunting sense of something that had repeated the practice a million times over (assuming she hunts daily, she could theoretically have performed hundreds of thousands of hunts, considering her age. It is also revealed that time doesn't pass the same on her plane as on ours, and usually passes faster. So she may have actually performed a million hunts in her lifetime).

Finally, she does have some extra abilities that could give her an advantage. She can planeshift to avoid a strike, and the next instance appear behind her opponent, or above her opponent for an advantage.

Overview

I really do believe the most likely scenario is Guen going on the defensive, and waiting for the most opportune moment to strike. She has hunting experience of something that has lived thousands of years, and has amazing instincts. She is highly intelligent, and understands human and warrior behavior intimately. I have no doubt Sonja possesses the abilities to detect Guen in time to defend herself; but I think more often than not Guen will get the jump on her. As shown earlier, Guen can cross 30-50 feet in an instant. If Guen gets in close, then I think Sonja will be in trouble, especially if caught offguard. Because of this, I put my faith in Guen over Sonja in this environment under these conditions.

I think her greatest advantage, however, is going to be experience. Does Sonja have multiple lifetimes of knowledge and experience? Absolutely, there's no debating her prowess as a comparable fighter to Guenhwyvar. However, most of Guen's feats and experience are against humanoids with instruments of war. She has spent lifetimes fighting armed and armored warriors from all walks of life. Sonja can easily claim the same; but I don't know if she's fought as many monstrous beasts as Guen has fought experienced warriors.

Generally speaking, I really want to make sure it's known that I believe Sonja has it in her to win this fight. Her senses, speed, ability, and equipment is enough that she could catch Guen and turn the fight the other way. She is definitely fast, strong, and durable enough to keep up with Guen and score the hits necessary to defeat her. There's no doubting that. However, despite all this, I believe that under these conditions Guen will take the early advantage more often than not, with all the abilities I've provided, will be able to put Sonja at enough of a disadvantage early on to make this a victory.

If she gains the ambush, she's smart enough not to press her luck, and has no issue retreating and striking against after Sonja has weakened from her early attacks. Making a hit and run a very viable tactic. Especially considering how much quicker her footspeed is. If she doesn't hit and run, it still remains that any grapple from Guen will prove to be lethal within moment. Even if Sonja does get a few good strikes in, Guen will remain the victor, even if heavily injured. Even in a straight fight, Guen has the ability to planeshift and come in from any angle. If Sonja predicts wrong, 600 pounds of black panther will be on top of her and I don't think she has it in her to survive that for long.

Again, I'm not here to argue a vast majority victory. But I believe the slight advantage definitely goes to Guen. At least enough that I believe her to be the victor more often than not.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#21 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Very nice. Tag after every post. You should finish the series. It's pretty good, though I personally find some if the 4e mix ins bs.... neither here nor there. Lmao.

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#22 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Just bump me when you are finished with this post, and I will start working on a response my friend=)

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#23 Posted by ManaMan (153 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag tag tag tag TAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGG

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#24 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:@jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @destinyman75: Full post up and ready to go!

@madscientist224: I'm on "The Orc King", and have also read the Sellsword Trilogy, and the War of the Spider Queen. I'm also working on the Cleric Quintet. I love the series; but I work really long hours, so sometimes it takes awhile to finish a series. I also read most of the early books in a very short span; but had a really hard time getting back into the series after the Paths of Darkness trilogy, which was easily my least favorite.

@manaman Tagged!

@wyldsong: Really loving this debate.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#25 Posted by vsw (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Looking good my friend. Give me a few days, and I will get a response up and running.

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#27 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Just a heads up, will be working on this tomorrow. Basically between the next 2 days, my response will be up. Definitely having fun with this one=)

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#28 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Take your time. I work a lot of hours, so it's not like I have time to read it for a few days anyway. :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#29 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Well, as you can see, the next 2 days thing did not happen. I am working on this right now, as we speak my friend. I will do what I can to get something up ASAP=)

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#30 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I'm picking up an extra shift this week, so no rush.

Looking forward to it, though!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#31 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Alright my friend, we are getting closer to the end of this little discussion, as I do believe I just have my closing post left after this one. I will have a few fairly long segments to discuss here, plus a segment similar to what you did in your discussions about Drizzt and the Drow...so without further adieu, let's do this...

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And because I feel like it for this post...a little mood music from the Viking's series...feels appropriate and moderately in theme...

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Resume Building

This section will be a fairly decent read. It will encompass feats that cover a wide variety of topics. I will reference this section throughout this post, but hopefully it will give a really eye opening look as to Sonja's capabilities in combat against definitively superhuman foes...

Conan the Barbarian

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In the last post, I talked a little bit about Conan. We got a peak at his senses, and of course his skill in blind fighting. Conan is one of those characters that a lot of people know, but not everyone knows a lot about. I think it is fair to say that most people understand that he is stupidly skilled, superhuman, and an all around beyond tough opponent for the majority of street levelers:

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Just a handful of FTE style speed feats, strength, skill and so on. Just enough to say that he is fast, skilled, and strong enough to make a debate for against the likes of Guen. That of course, is just the tip of the iceberg with his feats as he has a ton of history and showings. He has defeated stupidly skilled martial artists from the lands of Khitai to immortal beings and gods with numerous lifetimes of experience to massive monsters, beasts dragons and more, plus has fought and killed hordes of foes all by his lonesome. He would be more than a match for average Drow and of course the more skilled and elite versions, like Drizzt would find him troubling, I am sure.

While the two have never truly had a full out, trying to kill each other kind of battle, Sonja has shown to be more than his equal numerous times. Let's note, this is not Sonja prime:

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Even with his superior strength, she can cross blades with him, plus has managed to lay him on his arse, and can catch a dagger thrown by him...check the scans above, and you will see that he is an excellent marksman, even when throwing axes that normal men could not hope to ever lift. Let's also note, that was all a weaker era/lifetime of Sonja in that she was able to pull off those feats.

Tarzan

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This is another one of those characters that many people know, but not everyone knows a lot about. Much like Conan, he has a plethora of feats that prove him to be fast, skilled, strong, durable, stealthy, and most of all, superhuman:

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Throughout all of his eras, Tarzan has been shown to be superhuman. Master of combat, stealth, nerve strikes, speedy, strong, durable...I don't think anyone can deny that Tarzan would give most street levelers issues in hand to hand...if he can manage to kill a Yautja with a surprise attack and a knife...then I am sure there are plenty of arguments to be had with him against the likes of Drow, Drizzt, and of course Guen. Tarzan's strength, should at least be equal to, if not greater than that of Conan, and his stealth skills in the jungle, are reportedly unparalleled. Sonja from one of those lesser eras, the era of Simone, was not only able to detect Tarzan stalking her in the jungle:

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But she was also more than a match for him in hand to hand. Note, this is a character that she openly admitted was stronger and faster than herself. This fight ends at more or less a stalemate, with her tumbling off of a cliff, and snagging a vine last second. Which gives them each a moment to cool off and actually talk things out. Anyhow, some snippets from that epic fight:

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She can wrestle with, redirect, and take hits from a stronger and faster opponent. Again, this wasn't even Sonja in her prime. Tarzan would be deadly opponent for Drizzt and Guen, and would be more than debatable against either. As if this wasn't enough...we still have a few more characters to discuss....

John Carter, Warlord of Mars

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I have seen the forums place this man against a wide variety of foes, but most seem to know that he is definitively superhuman and a master swordsman. It should be noted, the feats where he is busting through or bending metal, Barsoomian metal far exceeds Earthly metals in hardness and strength. So overall, he is probably stronger than Conan and Tarzan, and can make leaps above an beyond that of even Guen:

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While on Mars, he is probably more superhuman than Conan and Tarzan. Strong, fast, skilled, durable, and has an insane leaping ability. That said, there is a demi-plane of sorts known as Worldscape. What it does, is draw in the best warriors from all known realities thanks to the magic of the Wizard Nex. The magics of Worldscape drew in John, and somehow allowed him to keep his abilities from Mars (not everyone in Worldscape got the same kind benefit, only those from Mars). John had to face the champion of the arena...who was none other than Red Sonja. She had defeated the best warriors from multiple realities that had been thrown at her (more on that in a bit), and had to face Carter. He makes one of his signature leaps at her, moving with such speed and force that he cracks the ground with his jump. Sonja shakes off the impact of the attack, and a good little fight ensues until she gets serious, subsequently stomping him in combat. She is about to deliver the finishing blow when the story dictated an interruption to keep a major character alive...but some snippets from that battle:

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This would also be the same era as the Simone Sonja, not Sonja prime...anyhow, let's talk about some more superhumans, shall we?

Vampirella

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This girl is one of my all time, top ten, favorite comic book bad girls. Vee is FTE to vampires that are FTE to humans, far stronger than anyone I am discussing here, is a bullet timer...and is just a bad arse in general:

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Seriously, I can give you plenty of feats for Vampirella. She is faster and stronger than Guen by a lot...once a mile undergound in a bunker, surrounded by FTE vamps, Vampi let's the villains all know that she set off the missiles and closed the hatches, and that they have 30 seconds before everything goes off:

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She blitzes and moves faster than any of them could perceive, slits the vampire lords throat, then moves again, and escaping with her and two human soldier captives before the missiles explode, all in the span of a short conversation:

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Had to cut out the actual explosion, but Vampi and the soldiers were the only ones to survive...she and Sonja had a quick little tussle (until Dracula stepped in and snagged Sonja from behind -- no shame in that when putting all your effort into trying to take down Vampi), but even with her speed, Vee only managed a glancing blow, and Sonja managed to catch this foe by surprise with her own speed:

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While I am not sure I could argue that Sonja would have killed Vee there (would take more than a sword through her glorious chest to do so), Sonja showed fantastic speed and reaction against a far superior foe, avoiding a deadly strike and catching Vampirella by surprise with her own attack. No too shabby overall. This was Sonja prime by the way=)

Hobgoblin

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I don't think I really need to go through his feats. Kingsley is strong and fast enough to go at with Spidey, with his tech also helping to even out the score. They had a battle in a canon crossover between Sonja prime and Spider-Man that happened just prior to Civil War. They end up having a running battle throughout the city, at one point he gets his hands on her and starts to choke her (where she has a vision of Mary Jane urging her to help Spidey -- Sonja was in MJ's body at the time), then she snaps out of it and wrestles with Kingsley, knocking him off of the glider, and gets ready to kill him, but is interrupted before she can take his head:

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Six page fight overall and she was the clear winner of that little tussle against a Spider-Man level foe=)

Venom

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Again, this fight happened in the Spider-Man crossover. This guy is definitely an exceedingly dangerous foe, and is one that has shown the speed to tag Pete numerous times. Sonja and Pete battled it out with this exceedingly scary and powerful foe, and Venom injures and tosses Pete quite a distance into some water, leaving Sonja to dodge, cut, and then leap into the water to save the wounded Pete. Bear in mind, Sonja has her blessed Hyrkanian blade here, a magic weapon that is capable of harming and drawing blood from even Venom:

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If this doesn't prove that she can hang with some of the top tiers of street levelers, then I don't know what will prove it. Still, let's do one more and close this section out=)

Spider-Man

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Seriously, another guy that really doesn't need much of an introduction. When people think of the top tiers of street levelers, this would about be it. So again, this is a crossover that happened before Civil War, and to give some background for this fight, Kulan Gath begins to warp reality in New York to remake it to his liking. He had tried this once before, way back in a Marvel Team-Up with Spider-Man and Sonja, back when she was a Marvel character. To help take care of Spider-Man, remembering what happened last time, he uses his magic and with the help of Sonja's sword (on display in a museum), transforms Mary Jane into Red Sonja, and manages to pit Sonja against Spider-Man. I think we all know, even a holding back Spider-Man could subdue Mary Jane easily if needed. In fact, he could subdue the majority of foes with ease with his superior speed, webbing, and can avoid attacks like nobody's business thanks to his spider-sense.

So yes, he was holding back on his strikes, but the point of this is not to argue Sonja's durability against Pete's strength/striking force. She has plenty of other durability feats that I have brought up. The point of showing this, is that while Pete was holding back on the offense, he was not holding back on the defense, and even with his speed, strength and webbing (which is arguably faster than a bullet), he could not keep Sonja contained, even in close quarters combat. She was just too fast and skilled for that. She had the right combination of skill, strength and speed to go toe to toe with him for roughly 7 pages, manages to get up first from a fall they both made from fairly high building to the street, and had Pete dead to rights, if not for Mary Jane still being somewhat present in her own body. And yes, Sonja prime manages to tag Pete and harm him several times, knowing how and where to hit for maximum effect.

Anyhow, a few snippets from that battle:

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And there it is. Sonja throughout many of her lifetimes has faced threats that are well into to the top tiers of street levels, and has come out on top. She is a legit threat and definitely a bad arse, with a highly impressive resume as you can see. Again, she has the perfect combination of skill, speed, strength, and durability to allow her to tangle with and take down foes that are superior in any number of physical stats and skill levels. With this done, let's detail out her skills just a tad more...

Skill

But I believe Guen has shown her ability more often than she is given credit. Being able to fight against many of the most skilled race in Forgotten Realms.

Before going any further, I don't doubt that Guen can take on some truly skilled and powerful foes in combat. That said, I am pretty sure you don't doubt that Sonja can do the same. I think I showcased this quite well in the section above, but I figured I may as well go a little deeper into the skill aspect. I am opening with these two scans, just because I love this scene, and it shows what a bound Sonja prime can accomplish against trained soldiers. Sonja was chained to a wall, and facing four armed soldiers. She kills all four of them with ease with just her legs:

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As a side note, she does get out on her own=)

Now, just how do we go about discussing skill? There are many factors to actually consider here: Training, experience, combat showings, so forth and so on. Just above, I talked about quite a few superhuman and skilled foes that people know about, and I have already discussed how Sonja actually originated the use of tools in killing in a past life. Let's discuss a few showings she has had against skilled personages from her own era, that aren't Conan. First up, there is the land of Khitai, which is basically a country which produces some of the Hyborean Ages greatest martial artists and swordsmen. In Khitai, Sonja faced off against one of their greatest masters of the blade, who managed to disarm Sonja. So she whooped him with her bare hands:

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Sonja also faced off against two of Khitai's greatest martial artists. These guys were capable of moving at slight blur speeds, and were highly skilled in hand to hand combat. She fought them, two on one, and took them down in an impressive display:

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I wish I could show this fight in it's entirety, but note, she was able to kill the first warrior with a sai that was stuck in some chains by precisely manipulating and swinging the chain at the right angle to get her target in the neck.

Moving to a lesser version of Sonja (Simone era), I can also point out that Sonja faced off against another of the greatest swordsmen from that particular era/lifetime. In their first match, Sonja was worn out, losing faith in herself and her mission, and was not at top form. In short, she tried to play by his rules (more or less something along the lines of a kind of tournament style match with silly rules), and she lost. She goes, gets herself straightened out (took a few hours), then challenges him again by starting a real fight with him, and then whoops him with ease:

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Sonja has also faced off against one of the greatest swords-women of the early 1900s. Again from the Simone era, this was a weaker version of Sonja and was from the Tarzan crossover. The big bad of the series, Eson Duul, had collected some of the best and most talented warriors throughout time to aid him in his endeavors...which was basically him taking down and hunting legends (like Sonja and Tarzan). Stephanie was one of the best Eson had seen with blade, and took her into his service. She thought she was doing well, until it was discovered a drunk Sonja was simply trying to not spill her wine in the battle:

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It should be noted, the two that were watching their companion face Sonja end up interfering, and it was pointed out that a drunken Sonja was more than her match without even trying. Again, this was not Sonja prime, and was a weaker version from another lifetime. An even better example of her skill and experience, comes when she faces Valcan, aka the Claw (back in the day, he was a prominent DC barbarian type). This was a character that was trained in the realm of the gods (by the gods themselves), and has mastered all known forms of combat. Think of Claw as a more skilled and possibly faster version of Conan. Sonja prime has beaten him in his normal state:

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And in a state where he was amped (faster/stronger):

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Too many scans to show the whole battle, but she ends up slicing off his clawed hand, which ends the fight. I can also point out the time that Sonja faced Raven, who had also received the blessing of Scathach. She had all of the same advantages as Sonja in skill and physicality, though lacked some of Sonja's experience. Of course, Sonja put the beat down on Raven:

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Two snippets from that fight...being four pages...couldn't show them all here. That being said, Sonja is only willing to spare her due to her goddess. Plus there was the time Sonja faced her own doppleganger...basically a copy of herself with all of her skill and memories, but was amped by Kulan Gath's magic to be able to beat Sonja...which failed utterly:

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She has defeated warriors that were the greatest in their lands or the world. She has defeated warriors trained by the gods to be the ultimate warrior in their regular and enhanced states. She has also defeated those that are as skilled as she is, with similar physical stats, and those that were enhanced to be beyond her. It is really hard to think of a time that Sonja in her modern incarnations has ever really lost a fight. She was created to be the ultimate weapon, and is very good at what she does...above I talked about Worldscape, which was basically a dimension that sucked in and trapped the greatest warriors in it from all realities. The champion of the arena from all of these realities? Sonja, of course:

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She is so skilled with a blade, that she makes the spectators and rulers of Worldscape think that her opponents are dead. She skillfully slices and dices them, to the point where most would think they have been removed from this mortal coil and are well beyond recovery, but she has secretly spared their lives, so they could be later healed to fight against their oppressors:

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All over these forums I have harped on the fact that she is a surgeon with a sword, and I say that with good reason. She can gut you, and run you through with a blade, and make it look like you are dead to even experienced warriors, but leave you alive, avoiding any and all vital organs that would kill you immediately. She does this all in the heat of battle..like when she did it to this guy:

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In the scan above this, the one where she is opening the door and you see a guy laying on the table, that was this gentleman that she gutted. Hurt, but more than alive, and was one of the top warriors from the Pathfinder comics. If that isn't insane skill with a blade, then I don't know what is. Unlike an actual surgeon though, she doesn't need a nice, quiet place to concentrate in to do this. She does it all in the midst of battle. I mean heck, she can throw a blade at an opponents head in the thick of battle, but make sure it is only buried deep enough and in the right spot to incapacitate them and keep them alive, so she can set them up for a far worse death:

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The scene is a little disjointed, because there is too much to show, but in a nutshell, he was using dark magic that summoned up evil versions of Sonja, and she turns that magic back on him, making them kill him horribly, as you can see. Also, in the next scans, there was the time that Sonja was firing arrows so rapidly at her foes that they thought they were being attacked by multiple archers surrounding them. She managed to make all kill shots, plus she fires at least two arrows at the same time with many of the shots:

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Let's also point out, she did this while on horseback, going full gallop, at night, in a rainstorm. As well, with a crossbow, far harder to reload than notching an arrow, Sonja can manage the rapid fire of two perfect simultaneous shots at the same time...which is technically impossible with a single shot crossbow, but hey, she does the impossible all the time:

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Finally, if we really want to see how well her particular combination of skill, experience, and physical stats work together, take a look at this massive beast, Leucoth:

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Yes, it towers over a city, and creates tidal waves. Sonja in one of her past lives, with nothing but a sword, fights this thing for days on end. She chops it up, bit by bloody bit, and then retrieves a mystic gem from its stomach, after which it sank to the bottom of the sea until it was resurrected. Subsequently, the battle took its toll on past Sonja and she did die, but not before defeating the beast. When it was eventually resurrected, Sonja prime then beat it again and she beats the superhuman demon/goddess that lived inside of it, and survives the encounter this time. Bits and pieces from each of the aforementioned scenes:

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Between the initial resume building, and seeing all of these feats...I don't think it can be argued that Sonja isn't a stupidly skilled and an exceedingly dangerous foe...but I guess that is enough on the skill for now. Let's see what else we have to discuss...

vs Stealth/Strength/Speed

I have no doubts Sonja is strong. I also have no doubts that she has handled many opponents as strong, and several times stronger than Guen throughout the years. But I am not talking about defeating monsters. I am talking about overpowering.

And if we go back into the resume building section, I have given you feats of her managing to cross swords and wrestle with stronger foes than herself. Foes that did not manage to overpower her, even though they had a clear strength advantage. Her combination of skill, speed and strength allowed her to deal with such foes and come out on top. While I will admit, Guen's ability to overpower the foes that she has is impressive, I am not sure she will manage such against Sonja.

Here is an example of Guen moving FTE against a giant, and too fast for Drizzt to recognize that she'd even moved or lept.

And here, I don't really have any arguments against Guen being speedy. Although, as shown, Sonja can pull FTE speeds as well. We need to put FTE into perspective, in that it is an ability that runs from the peak human levels, like with Batman, all the way through the likes of Wolverine to Spider-Man. Obviously, it is something that less than speedsters can accomplish, and there are arguments made on just how peak humans accomplish it (generally only the fastest and most skilled of this rank can do it), but overall, it is very impressive for characters that can accomplish the feat. It should not be undersold, but it is a skill that peak humans to superhumans have achieved, although for different lengths of time and only in bursts in some cases. That said, I have feats of Sonja casually reacting to swarms of arrows and arrows/bolts fired from behind, multi-directional lightning style attacks, redirect-able laser style attacks, and a plethora of superhumans all the way up to Spidey and Venom both.

I see Guen's speed as worthy and it will keep Sonja on her toes, but with Sonja's speed, skill and reactionary ability, I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle. Sonja has dealt with faster foes. If Spidey couldn't hope to contain Sonja, and she could manage to tag him with his speed and spider-sense in play, then I tend to believe that more often than not, she will successfully be able to react to Guen in this fight without a whole lot of issue. Also, I may as well reiterate, that while Guen may be able to clear a longer distance, Sonja's own leaping ability is fairly considerable:

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She cleared the ground level of one floor through a hole to the floor above, cleared a massive gate, and made a vertical leap onto a speeding train. She has the movement options beyond just running, and can play a pretty gnarly avoidance game if needed. As for the stealth aspect, let's not forget that as a child, she was out-stealthing the senses of deer and other animals, and as an adult, in one of her weaker eras, managed to beat the insane senses of Conan. Avoiding Conan's stupidly enhanced senses...no small feat there. Still, Sonja is a legendary thief as well as warrior, and one of the few that has managed to out-thieve Conan. She was already a proficient thief as a child:

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Stealth is something that she is intimately familiar with. I already showed you that, as a child, she proved stealthy enough to sneak around and ambush a group of experienced warriors and mercenaries. Again, I must point out that she was doing this as a child. There was the time that she was helping her young protege get revenge, and they both attacked a fort with 20 men inside of it, following the plan Sonja laid out. The defenders could not track or find Sonja or her protege, and they thought they were being attacked by an army, not knowing it was simply Sonja and her student, stealthing around and sniping them:

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In a packed theatre, Sonja stealthily takes out General Taerga's guards, and gets the drop on the general herself without being seen until she wanted to be seen:

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Better yet, she kills all the guards of a keep, without a single, solitary one of them being able to raise an alarm, nor anyone inside the keep really being the wiser about what was going on (they were on high alert), and catches her prey:

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As for detecting stealth, I think I went into enough detail. Sure, Drow senses are awesome, but Sonja's senses allowed her to tag foes with perfect head shots while she was blinded and dying of a plague, and she did this through smell and sound. She detected Tarzan in the jungle...someone who arguably should be nearly impossible to detect in the jungle, even by those with superhuman senses. Plus she located the scent of a foe that was on the other side of an army, deep in a cave...that is some Wolverine level scent detection. With all of this in mind, let's move to the rebuttals, and get this bad boy closed out.

Rebuttals

I've shown her going FTE against creatures who are considered not only superior in speed and reflexes to humans and elves; but whose average training puts them above elite warriors of almost any other race. I've even provided instances of her appearing as a blur to the likes of Drizzt (the protagonist of the series) in close combat.

And I have shown Sonja reacting to the likes of Conan, Tarzan, John Carter, Vampirella, Hobgoblin, Venom, and Spider-Man...all characters that could match or flat out beat Guen's best combat speeds. While her speed is admirable and noteworthy, it's not beyond what Sonja has dealt with numerous times over, successfully I might add.

Sonja, by your own admission, is a low tonner level of strength. I've provided several examples of Guen overpowering low tonner characters casually, and staggering creatures who are Spiderman level in terms of strength. Can she overpower the latter? Absolutely not; but she is a little above the low tonner level of strength.

And I have provided plenty of examples of Sonja crossing swords and fighting hand to hand with tonners that broach the 8 to 10+ ton range. Guen may be able to overpower tonners, but she isn't at the level of strength of many of the foes I showed in the resume building section. If even the likes of Spidey couldn't manage to contain and overpower her...I dare say that Guen will fare little better. While I will admit Guen may be the stronger of the two, it's nothing Sonja hasn't faced and overcome before.

I've provided examples of her getting hit by crossbow bolts, swords (of superior metals to steel), and arrows. While some of these hurt her and even cause her to bleed, she has shown to definitively have the ability to tank piercing/slashing weapons and keep going. So it'll take a lot to put her down. As for her blunt force durability, she frequently tanks hits from creatures who weigh 1 ton with Spiderman levels of strength and keeps fighting. There are no peak humans who can compete with her in h2h without the use of a weapon, due to her blunt force durability.

And I have shown Sonja tanking hits from tonners, tanking a hit from the demonic shark, leaping off of a very high wall that towered over a forest and walking off the impact with the ground without ill effect, surviving an explosion that killed all the regular humans with nothing but some scuff marks, and surviving electrical attacks that fry regular humans. Now, I can dig up feats of her surviving and fighting through cutting/piercing attacks and the like, though those feats are moderately few and far between for her, thanks to her avoidance/defensive capabilities. Sonja's sports superhuman durability, make no mistake about that, and I dare say, Guen will have her hands full trying to actually put Sonja down.

Overall, Strength, Speed, and Durability go to Guen.

Not sure I agree. Strength probably goes to Guen, but with Sonja's unique combination of stats and skill, strength is honestly negligible. Speed, well Guen takes this in travel speeds and overal maneuverability. That said, Sonja has FTE speeds, and has kept up with Spider-Man levels of speed in combat. Personally, I feel Sonja takes the slight edge in combat speeds.

Are these physical abilities significantly above Sonja? I'd say no. They exist; but they aren't indomitably higher than Sonja's physical abilities. It's more like a slight advantage in each category. I have no doubt Sonja has fought SEVERAL opponents who were more enhanced in every category and come out the victor, much the way Guen has. But the advantage definitely is there.

Overall, I kind of feel like Sonja has more of an advantage in many of these categories, and the ones where she doesn't, like strength, are made negligible by her unique combination of skill and stats.

Beyond this, we have Guen's skillset. In this environment, I think Guen is going to be able to use her stealth to her advantage. I've proven that she has the ability to avoid detection against someone who is one of the best trackers in Forgotten Realms. Not only that; but he knows her intimately and has the enhanced sensory advantages of being a drow, and even he holds faith that she is still there, as he can't actually discern her location.

Honestly, thanks to plane shifting, in a pure stealth and hiding aspect, Guen takes this category. That said, we have open areas of the map that Sonja can take the battle to. As well, considering that Sonja can smell a foe across an entire army deep in a cave, can tag foes with perfect head shots while blind/sick/dying of a plague, can detect Tarzan stalking her in the jungle, and can react to and tag a speedy precog like Spidey...I tend to think she can make do, and react to Guen, even with planeshifting in effect, in which she still has to materialize with the telltale mist. Sonja isn't without combat speed and ability in this battle. Not to mention, if she can avoid detection by a guy that can track foes several days away by feeling vibrations on the ground, can smell water buried deep beneath the earth, can tag invisible foes with a thrown sword and so on...Guen's senses are considerable, but so are Conan's. I dare say that she actually stands a chance in keeping hidden from even Guen's considerable senses.

I really do believe the most likely scenario is Guen going on the defensive, and waiting for the most opportune moment to strike. She has hunting experience of something that has lived thousands of years, and has amazing instincts. She is highly intelligent, and understands human and warrior behavior intimately. I have no doubt Sonja possesses the abilities to detect Guen in time to defend herself; but I think more often than not Guen will get the jump on her. As shown earlier, Guen can cross 30-50 feet in an instant. If Guen gets in close, then I think Sonja will be in trouble, especially if caught offguard. Because of this, I put my faith in Guen over Sonja in this environment under these conditions.

Well, see my thoughts above. I do believe Guen possesses considerable speed and ability. It's just that an arrow and crossbow bolt can do the same with distance covered in an instant, as well can Vampirella, Spider-Man and so on. If Sonja can detect Guen in time, she can also react in time with her insane skills and abilities, as shown.

I think her greatest advantage, however, is going to be experience. Does Sonja have multiple lifetimes of knowledge and experience? Absolutely, there's no debating her prowess as a comparable fighter to Guenhwyvar. However, most of Guen's feats and experience are against humanoids with instruments of war. She has spent lifetimes fighting armed and armored warriors from all walks of life. Sonja can easily claim the same; but I don't know if she's fought as many monstrous beasts as Guen has fought experienced warriors.

Sonja has been fighting monsters, warriors, gods and more since caveman times. I have already provided an extensive list of all of this and more, though admittedly, a good chunk of it comes from this post. Sonja has faced hordes and armies by her lonesome, and has led hordes and armies as a commander and queen. I honestly don't feel there is anything Guen has faced that Sonja doesn't have a comparable encounter to discuss. She took down a beast that created tidal waves on the city it was threatening, and has faced all sizes all the way down to a shapeshiter taking the shape of a bug. I can give you tons more on the monster slaying front, but I don't think Guen takes the experience angle.

Generally speaking, I really want to make sure it's known that I believe Sonja has it in her to win this fight. Her senses, speed, ability, and equipment is enough that she could catch Guen and turn the fight the other way. She is definitely fast, strong, and durable enough to keep up with Guen and score the hits necessary to defeat her. There's no doubting that. However, despite all this, I believe that under these conditions Guen will take the early advantage more often than not, with all the abilities I've provided, will be able to put Sonja at enough of a disadvantage early on to make this a victory.

I agree with this sentiment my friend, just on the reverse end, with Sonja taking the win over Guen. Even then, even if Guen managed the early advantage....it's not a matter of where you start, but a matter of where you end up. Sonja has overcome overwhelming odds in the face of complete and utter defeat before. Still, with what I have provided here, I don't see Sonja being at any serious disadvantage early on nor late in the game.

If she gains the ambush, she's smart enough not to press her luck, and has no issue retreating and striking against after Sonja has weakened from her early attacks. Making a hit and run a very viable tactic. Especially considering how much quicker her footspeed is. If she doesn't hit and run, it still remains that any grapple from Guen will prove to be lethal within moment. Even if Sonja does get a few good strikes in, Guen will remain the victor, even if heavily injured. Even in a straight fight, Guen has the ability to planeshift and come in from any angle. If Sonja predicts wrong, 600 pounds of black panther will be on top of her and I don't think she has it in her to survive that for long.

The problem on the hit and run...Sonja is deadly at range. I have shown that numerous times, and Guen presents a much larger target than the likes of a bug. She is going to take a lot of damage in the retreat phase, and may take fatal hit if the Sword of Sorrow or blessed Hyrkanian blade are thrown. Grappling...Sonja has grappled with stronger, but I do believe her reactions to be fast enough to avoid such, or to redirect any initial tackle to turn such into a flip and toss of her foe. The planeshift of course leaves telltale signs, and if she can predict and tag a spider-powered precog...I would say her prediction game is on point=)

Again, I'm not here to argue a vast majority victory. But I believe the slight advantage definitely goes to Guen. At least enough that I believe her to be the victor more often than not.

Well, I agree with the sentiment, I just see the overall advantages as being in Sonja's corner=)

In Closing

Well my friend, hopefully the length of the post wasn't too terrible, but I did have a lot of ground to cover. Especially considering the closing post is about all that is left after this one, and I am trying to keep from getting into anything new in that post. So, I look forward to your response my friend. This has been a fun experience overall, and I am glad we decided to do this.

Of course...closing out with my usual...

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Onto you my friend.

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#32 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by HigherPower (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

This turned out amazing

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#34 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: This will be my final rebuttal. I'll put my closer up immediately afterwards, and then you can follow with your closer.

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Strength, Speed, and Durability

Realistically, I don't think Guen is unreachably above Sonja in terms of her stats. But I'm still maintaining they are there. Both via my showings, and your own. You've shown where Sonja is on the strength scale, and the caliber of strength that is above her own, and I've shown that Guen has fought against opponents who are at or above that caliber, and overpowered them with raw strength alone. Similar feats can be shown for speed and durability. Sonja has been cut deeply by standard, steel weaponry. Guen has taken blows from bladed steel weapons from post-human levels of strength with only minor injury. We've also seen Guen reach FTE speeds in combat, against people with superhuman levels of speed, agility, senses, and etc. Which is worth noting.

I have no doubts Sonja is strong. I also have no doubts that she has handled many opponents as strong, and several times stronger than Guen throughout the years. But I am not talking about defeating monsters. I am talking about overpowering.

And if we go back into the resume building section, I have given you feats of her managing to cross swords and wrestle with stronger foes than herself. Foes that did not manage to overpower her, even though they had a clear strength advantage. Her combination of skill, speed and strength allowed her to deal with such foes and come out on top. While I will admit, Guen's ability to overpower the foes that she has is impressive, I am not sure she will manage such against Sonja.

The point isn't that Guen faced off against strong opponents. Both of them have fought against opponents several times stronger than themselves and avoided being overpowered. My point is that Guen is significantly stronger than Sonja. As strong as Sonja is, you have scans of her flat out admitting she isn't as strong as Conan and Tarzan. The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with the caliber of opponents she is facing, it has to do with her actual strength. Tarzan and Conan are shown to fight against gorillas, bears, and even forest elephants. Though the forest elephant he was using tools and etc. to overpower.

My point is that Guen is facing off against creatures who are at or past the low tonner category. Half-Giants and Half-Ogres can throw around 300 pound rocks like they are footballs. Full blooded ogres, verbeeg, and drider can throw double that. Riding lizards, horses, oxen, and some of the mystical creatures she fights can carry several thousand pounds with only mild encumberance. Yet Guen is able to physically outmatch them all with the strength of her muscles.

I have no doubts Sonja could dispatch most of these creatures (probably pretty easily, tbh); but the point has nothing to do with the ability of the opponent; but the strength of them.

And I have provided plenty of examples of Sonja crossing swords and fighting hand to hand with tonners that broach the 8 to 10+ ton range. Guen may be able to overpower tonners, but she isn't at the level of strength of many of the foes I showed in the resume building section. If even the likes of Spidey couldn't manage to contain and overpower her...I dare say that Guen will fare little better. While I will admit Guen may be the stronger of the two, it's nothing Sonja hasn't faced and overcome before.

Again, I have no doubts. Frost and Stone giants are common foes for the likes of Drizzt and Guen. Both of which are renowned not only for their size, and strength; but for their skill. They can throw 500 pound boulders hundreds of yards accurately in the books. They are easily in the 8-10+ ton range. Guen is not only able to defeat them; but she is capable of staggering them, and they have extreme difficulties wrestling with her physically. Granted, they can out-muscle her; but it requires a bit of effort to do so.

And here, I don't really have any arguments against Guen being speedy. Although, as shown, Sonja can pull FTE speeds as well. We need to put FTE into perspective, in that it is an ability that runs from the peak human levels, like with Batman, all the way through the likes of Wolverine to Spider-Man. Obviously, it is something that less than speedsters can accomplish,

The point is moreso the level of opponent Guen can go FTE against. Drow are vastly superhuman in terms of speed, dexterity, and agility. This is due to a combination of factors. First, they have the same physique as most elves; which affords them superhuman/metahuman levels of finesse, senses, and etc. The second, is that all drow spend years of their life training for almost the entirety of their waking hours; earning them the reputation of deadliest race in Faerun. They are revered among mortals and immortals alike (demons, vampires, whatever). So the point of Guen going FTE isn't that she can just go FTE, it's that she can do so against metahuman levels of senses.

Again, I have no doubts Sonja has fought faster, my point is that Guen is incredibly fast not only in terms of travel; but combat speed as well.

Durability

Again, this is something I believe Guen has in strides. If we are talking blunt force durability, both have more than enough feats against the 10+ ton range of opponents that we can almost call this a stalemate. But Guen has significant durability showings against piercing, and slashing. Which I believe to be the most important in this fight.

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This is just one example of her piercing resistance. These spines dig into armor and flesh; but Guen is able to take them (granted, with some damage), the spines and quills are also slashing weapons, and she is able to withstand them.

I've also shown her take axe strikes, bolts, arrows, swords, and other attacks with minimal damage. She's got a fair amount of resistant towards steel, stone, and wooden weaponry. Which I believe will be an asset. It's also a good showing of her pain tolerance. Guen can fight through wounds that would easily kill others. She's fought despite being partially melted from acid, or with several of her bones crushed from a cave-in.

Skill/Senses

Again, Guen has lived for several millenia, and has amassed quite a bit of skill over those years. It can safely be stated that she has performed hundred of thousands of hunts in her lifetime within her own material plane. But her feats don't really end there. She has proven herself against hosts of foes who are consistently categorized well above even the most elite human fighters. Able to dispatch them with ease in much the same way Sonja does.

One of the biggest advantages, is Guen's ability to pretty much sense everything. Guen has a supernatural sense that allows her to discern opponents from a distance. She is said here to be able to track the difference between an elk, a rabbit, and a mindflayer. Not via their smell or sound; but by the aura produced by their being.

The two mind flayers continued observing the panther’s entity. They did not know it, but Guenhwyvar was aware of their presence. In the Astral Plane, where material senses such as smell and taste had no meaning, the panther substituted other subtle senses. Here, Guenhwyvar hunted through a sense that translated the emanations of energy into clear mental images, and the panther could readily distinguish between the aura of an elk and a rabbit without ever seeing the particular creature.

Illithids were not so uncommon on the Astral Plane, and Guenhwyvar recognized their emanations. The panther had not yet decided whether their presence was mere coincidence or was in some way connected to the fact that Drizzt had not called in many days.

The apparent interest the mind flayers showed in Guenhwyvar suggested the latter, a most disturbing notion to the panther. Still, Guenhwyvar did not want to make the ɹrst move against so dangerous an enemy.

-Exile, R.A. Salvatore

Below, Guen is able to easily dodge, and outmaneuver a group of 3 drow. She gets up a 20 foot vertical incline so fast it seems she simply runs up the wall. The drow fail to defeat her and she overpowers and outmuscles them quickly and efficiently. Again, 2 of these warriors are shown to be too much for the likes of Cattie-Brie (who Drizzt heavily regards as near to him in terms of skill), and Guen is able to overpower 3 of them, in full armor and weaponry. It should be noted, Guen has already taken dozens of crossbow bolts in an attempt to shield Drizzt earlier, and took several lashings from a Drider's axe swings, again, to protect her companions.

As the torchlight breached the room, a darting black form cut through, going into the darkness in full flight. Guenhwyvar broke to the right, cut left toward the center of the chamber, then darted right again, toward the back wall.From somewhere ahead there came the sound of firing crossbows, followed by the skip of quarrels hitting the stone, always one step behind the dodging, leaping panther.

Guenhwyvar veered again at the last moment, leaped, and turned sidelong, paws running along the vertical wall for several strides before the panther had to come back to the floor. The cat's target, the high ledge on the right-hand wall was now in sight, and Guenhwyvar ran full out, speeding for it recklessly.At the base, in full stride, and apparently soaring toward a headfirst collision, the panther's muscles subtly shifted. Guenhwyvar's direction change was almost perpendicular, the panther flying, seeming to run, straight up the twenty-foot expanse to the ledge.The three dark elves atop the ledge could not have expected the incredible maneuver. Two fired their crossbows Guenhwyvar's way and fell back into a tunnel; the third, having the misfortune to be directly in the leaping panther's path, could only throw his arms up as the panther fell over him.

-The Legacy, R.A. Salvatore

I'm going to post a few more from the Legacy; but it should be noted how bad Guen is hurt in this book. She has been beaten, stabbed, and shot several dozen times over, and continues to move and fight with complete abandon. Here, it shows that with her wearing her insides as her outsides, she still continues to move at incredible speeds.

Guenhwyvar looked haggard indeed! The panther's muscles drooped, slack from exhaustion, and the black-furred skin of one shoulder hung out, torn, revealing sinew and cordlike tendons underneath.

"Oh, go back'." Catti-brie cried, horrified by the sight. She scooped up the figurine and moved to dismiss the panther.

Guenhwyvar moved faster than either Catti-brie or the dwarf would have believed possible, given the cat's desperate state. A paw slashed up at Catti-brie, batting the figurine to the ground. The panther flattened its ears and issued an angry growl.

-The Legacy, R.A. Salvatore

This feat needs some explaining. These are not only drow warriors; but mercenaries of Jarlaxle D'aerthe. Two of these mercenaries were almost enough to kill Drizzt Do'Urden (nameless fodder troops), and one was able to keep Drizzt's equal at bay for most of a fight (Artemis Entreri). So these are oftentimes considered the best warriors the drow have to offer. Yet none of them detect Guen coming, at full speed, to save the ranger from a lightning bolt. Remember how injured she is, she has not been given any time to recover since the prior statement. Not only does she take a lightning blast full force; but she continues to fight with all her prior injuries.

A pity, Drizzt Do'Urden," the mercenary said. "I would give many lives to own a warrior of your skills." He began to chant in the drow tongue. Drizzt tried to go to the side, but Vierna and the other drowworked him hard, kept him in line.There came a flash, a lightning bolt, beginning just ahead of the ducking Vierna and the drowsoldier. But there came, too, just as the mercenary uttered the triggering words, a flying black form, from behind Drizzt, that clipped the drow ranger's shoulder as it leaped past him and flew through the openingbetween Vierna and her male ally.

Guenhwyvar took the blast full force, absorbed the energy of the lightning bolt before it ever got started. The panther soared through its magical force, slamming into the surprised mercenary and driving him to the stone.The sudden flash, the sudden appearance of the panther, did not distract the veteran Drizzt. Nor did Vierna, so filled with hatred, so obsessed with this kill, turn her attention from the furious battle. The other drow, though, squinted at the sudden flash and turned his head for an instant to look over his shoulder.In that instant, when the drow turned back to the battle, he found Twinkle's deadly point already passing through his armor and reaching for his heart.

-The Legacy, R.A. Salvatore

After this feat, she continues to fight a couple of these mercenaries on even footing. Despite her injuries. Again, she is on a level that is near, rivals, and in some cases proven superior to that of her master, Drizzt Do'Urden.

Overall

Sonja is an amazing opponent. Again, I have no doubt in my mind that she possesses the ability, stats, and skills to defeat someone as powerful as Guenhywvar. However, I still maintain that Guen has it in her to take the slight majority.

I've proven her to be stronger, faster, and more durability. Granted, some of these advantages may not be by much (for example, speed); but they do exist. She also has the stealth and speed to distance herself from Sonja and turn this into a hunt. A type of battle where her advantages can outweight her disadvantages. In addition to her ability to close distance, is her incredibly high pain tolerance and ability to fight at full strength despite dozens of would-be fatal injuries. This can also be topped with her ability to avoid damage by slipping into another plane of existence. Whether it be to gain a position advantage, or to simply avoid damage or detection when sneaking it or running away.

In terms of skill, there is no doubt Guen is facing an equal in that department. Both often find themselves against opponents who are stronger, faster, more durable, smarter, and have a reputation for great skill or ability. However, in almost all instances, these characters come out on top; despite their disadvantages. The biggest advantage to Sonja comes from her equipment in combination with her skill. She has the short, mid, and long ranged advantage. However, I believe Guen has superior striking power and CQC weaponry. Her entire body is a weapon, and she has more mass behind her blows than most skilled fighters can boast. Even Conan and Tarzan are nowhere near the mass of a 600 pound panther, and don't carry magical weaponry and defenses in their natural body. Which is why I feel Guen has it in her to take the majority, however slight it may be.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#35 Posted by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: @jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @destinyman75:

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Closing Argument

Both of these characters have phenomenal showings. There is no real argument to be had on either side that would prove a landslide or even a solid majority playing out in their character's favor. That's pretty much why I feel this is one of the debates I've had the most fun having over my years on this sight. Plus, I imagine arguing with a feline characters is about as fun and challenging for me to do as it has been for you to argue against. Instead of arguing with parries, hand to hand capability, and typical martial prowess, I instead have to show the level opponent she's up against, and show paw swipes, bites, tackles, rakes, and pounces done in such a fashion that they render even the most skilled martial opponent or physical behemoth helpless. Nonetheless, I believe the case has been made.

Both characters have showings against monsters, humanoids, and beings who can easily be said to be their superior. Whether that is in the hands of some physically enhanced humanoid, a giant of one sort or the other, or a well-skilled humanoid with a well-defined reputation in their own world. Despite coming against these indomitable beings, both our characters almost always find themselves as the winners.

However, my argument still stands that one of Guen's greatest advantages comes from her natural stats and abilities. Guen's senses are unparalleled. We have beings who can track an echo of leather boots against mud through winding, chaotic tunnels; with Guen outright being stated to be vastly superior. Beings who can track a sent from miles away still unable to grasp where Guen is detecting one for or the other. And finally, the ability to track creatures supernaturally by an intangible aura they produce, and to mentally create an image of the creature based solely on this aura. Above all this, we also have other abilities granted simply by the nature of her being. This includes magically empowered claws, hide, and teeth. Capable of scratching past mithril armor, biting through steel, and harming creatures who would otherwise be considered immune to physical attacks. Capable of taking steel weapons swung by post-human beings with minimal injury, and a physiology capable of fighting despite being burned, melted, eviscerated, or altogether mortally wounded. Finally, we have her ability to planeshift. This allows her to make short distance travels and fight in much the same way a teleporter would, and also allows her to walk and operate through the astral plane for extended periods of time. This does, however, take a split second to exit the plane. Meaning that while she's there, she cannot cause any harm to beings outside of the astral plane.

But beyond the supernatural abilities afforded to her by the nature of her being, are the enhancements that come with that, and by the sheer size of her. Guen is capable of overpowering low ton level creatures, and crushing the skulls of superhumans beneath her powerful jaws. She can stagger and contend with the musculature of creatures who are four times her mass, and can overpower creatures who throw humans around like ragdolls, and casually shatter brick and reinforced doors like cardboard. She operates at a level of speed where superhuman sight compiled with superhuman speed are barely enough to comprehend that a 600 pound blur crossed their field of vision. But even in standard combat, she is easily outpacing, dodging, and swatting away strikes from Drider, Drow, Elf, Demon, Fiend, and the likes. Finally comes her durability. Not only can she take a dozen arrows from a dozen archers; but they barely do more than superficial damage to the magical hide of her. This is compiled with a pain tolerance, fortitude, and will power that lets her continue to operate at optimal levels through even the gravest of injuries.

Finally comes her skill. I don't believe her to be Sonja's superior in this regard. The two have an almost incomparable skillset, that I can't even begin to try to formulate much beyond her ability to avoid strikes, deflect them, and close distances. I do believe that the skills she does have can be shown as capable of countering Sonja's skills. Guen has some of the best stealth feats I've seen in fiction. Hiding from Drizzt, and sneaking through fortresses with dozens of defenses designed to render stealth all but impossible. But Guen has overcome them all. Add to that her ability to cross fifty feet in less than the blink of an eye, at speeds almost equal to that of record breaking arrow shots; and we have someone who can eliminate the advantage of range in a heartbeat. To top it off, she can turn and change her directory on a dime, and unpredictably while in full sprint (which she's been shown to do multiple times throughout the debate).

As a result, I would put Guen as the champion of this particular battle, under these particular conditions. Guen has thousands of years experience hunting in an environment like this one. It is where she is at her best, and I believe that is enough of an edge to give her the slight majority against an opponent who is, no doubt, more than up for the challenge.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#36 Posted by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio

Joygasim this was a real debate and I'm going to have to go back and read read Soo much Information. Both did quite well I must say I'm glad I got to read this kudos to both for all the work you obviously out into this. And literally these are my two favs. I've read all of Guess appearances with her partner in crime Drizzt have all those books..Love me some Salvatore.. On the other side Red Sonya has always been special to me and have followed her in comics, movies, and even in the old Hypoborian war game through the snail mail.(yeah I'm old).. so this one truly is tough...ok off to read then will render my vote...

Wulfgar vs Conan mmmmmm???(hint) cough ahem reading now...

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#37 Edited by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok this again so hard to decide. Niether Of you did anytt wrong in way shape or form from formation to ending. So I had to decide soley due to best overall. Who made me Believe one could defeat the other most?... I will do as both of you have done and break it down as you yourselves did in category....

senses-. Wyldsong did well to show even as a child Sonya was adapt at hunting and even toying with her prey so to speak. -Wyldsong/Sonya -you showed this clearly and brings to light if she can do this as a child, then as an Adult she must be downright insane Indeed. -Flooplay/Guen-. You showed that Guen can track not just normally but magically enchanced as well. Tracking drow and other magical creaters and even tracking with nothing more then a heartbeat. This said this category goes to-Guen/Flooplay....As good as Sonya is, (and she's top notch). Guen is better still. She in fact is better then possibly anyone I know of in this, so nod to Guen here...

Speed-. This one was the toughest and I think closest of the battles of skill sets. Both are incredibly fast.

Wyldsong/Sonya-. Showing Sonya against many foes from superhumans like Conan, Goblin, venom, and Spiderman, as well as vamprella. As well as arrows and other weapons.

Flooplay/Guen-. Likewise showing feats vs various foes such as drow (who are Insanely fast) FTE speeds indeed..While they are very close here the deciding factor for as the vamprella showing. I believe Vamprella who makes other fast foes like vampires look like slowmotion statues, is faster then Guen to me. And Sonya being able to go with her makes me believe she's just a tad faster so By a hair Vote Sonya/Wyldsong.

Durability-. This one was less hard.

Wyldsong/Sonya-. Sonya obviously had taken much damage and kept on going with her superhuman stats tough as nails...

Flooplay/Guen-. Flooplay you showed that Guen isn't just tough physically but can go to another plane entirely. While both are tough as they come Guen seems to be more so. Vote- Flooplay/Guen

Strength-. Back to the close ones.

Wyldsong/Sonya-. You brought up her vs Conan vs venom and vamprella etc. Pulling that huge Roc down, and fighting Surtur. Giants etc.

Flooplay/Guen- You likewise showed Guen overpowering stone Giants, Frost Giants (too bad never got to see Guen vs Gerti)..and magical/demons etc..

Vote -Tie-. Niether showed a significant amount of strength over the other.

Skills- This is the battle of battles here.

Wyldsong/Sonya-. You showed a bit of history here. Sonya being brought back to life by the goddess over and over again for thousands of years.. Showed a plethora of her skills over the ages. With any weapons she can fight etc.

Flooplay/Guen-. Those teeth and claws you showed clearly being potent weapons and I fully believe even Sonya will be hard pressed to offset those. And being around a guy Like Drizzt who is one of the end of all time doesn't hurt either..

Experience- Both have thousands of years experience so tie here no need to go further..

Vote-. Tough both fight very similar foes. However as Ace as Guen is she is more limited tooth and claw. While Sonya has a plethora of weapons to choose from and normally carries.

End Game vote...I literally couldn't choose between debaters in anyway so I had to go with what they made me believe the most...

Guen with her Durability advantage with near same speed etc will undoubtedly win a few here. Said that However I believe due to the complete LEVEL of foes Sonya has faced and shown to face, though many are the same a few are well and above. Spiderman, venom, Vamprella (was the deciding factor). Sonya's skills, and speed will give her the majority in a tough fight here..

End Vote by a hair

WYDLSONG/SONYA..

Thanks to both WYDLSONG and FLOOPLAY for my favorite Cav to read yet on any site.....

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#39 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: @destinyman75: Voting is not opened yet. While I offered the closer to my friend and sparring partner, @floopay is of the belief that I should have the closing post. So, I still need to drop my closer, so please, hold off your voting considerations until then my friends=)

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#40 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: My friend, it will be a few more days, but I will drop my closer as soon as I am able, then I will open the floor officially for votes. Since you have dropped your final post and closer, I can go ahead and say, it has been fun and it has been an honor debating with you. Win or lose, it was an outcome that was well earned, either way.

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#41 Posted by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: ooops my bad Lol thought it was open again oops

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#42 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by Floopay (11155 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: My personal belief is that the biggest advantages in a debate come from the first counter and the last post.

So when I do CaVs, I try to make sure whoever posts first doesn't get both disadvantages. That way I don't get big first counter AND last post.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#44 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: @wyldsong: my bad folks. I deleted my voting post. I'll reread after wylds closer and reassess with as much of an open mind as I'm able.

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#45 Edited by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: Just to let you know, I have not forgotten this. Finally finished up a delayed post on my CaV with @vsw, so this will be next on the list so we can wrap this up soonish=)

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#48 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay: First of all my friend, I want to open this with the fact that it has been a pleasure doing this debate with you. For one, you have given me the opportunity to present Sonja as I feel she should fully be presented. In past CaVs, I just don't think I quite got there, either with the debate feeling like a full blown respect thread, or with me failing to truly clarify the versions of Sonja, causing confusion and misunderstandings in the discussion. Again, I do have an overall vision for Sonja, and of course my own theories on how it all connects. While I didn't lay out the sum total of how I feel it all connects, since it wasn't really needed overall, I think I got the point across here.

Now beyond what you have allowed me to do here, we also had what was probably one of the most unique CaVs on these forums to date. Two fairly obscure characters from the realms of fantasy works: A fearsome and magical/supernatural centuries old dire panther fighting a fiery haired goddess blessed warrior with multiple lifetimes dating back to the dawn of man. Seriously, who would have thought of such a match? I think we have each proven quite a bit about our respective choices in this little bout. I have truly loved everything about what we each have accomplished here. Still, all good things must come to an end. So let's work on finishing this.

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As I write this, I have a glass of mead by my side, and am listening to some viking metal bands to feel moderately in theme. Basically, I will drop some responses and closing thoughts to everything we have discussed, and there won't really be anything with new feats...except maybe one or two things to reinforce what I have already talked about. Basically no new ground will be broken here, barring one small thing I meant to bring up but forgot to talk about last post, which is her swords. It should not alter the "landscape" of the discussion, since I have already stated that they are meant to harm and kill magical beings. Of course, nothing new here, but let's start with those wonderful and deadly weapons...

The Blades:

Obviously, Guen can tank a lot of damage from mortal weaponry. Sonja's two main blades though, are not mortal weaponry...I brought these weapons up in my very first post, and I made mention of what they can do. So this is nothing new here, I am just detailing them out, since I forgot to do it in my last post. I don't want consideration for these blades to fall by the wayside, so I am getting it in now. We will start with the Blessed Hyrkanian Blade.

Blessed Hyrkanian Blade

In a crossover with the Witchblade, Sara faced a foe known as Ragniel, a fallen angel that had such power, that even the abstract and adaptable weapon, the Witchblade, could not harm it. I can give you a rundown of the Witchblade's credentials, but overall, it is a living weapon that adapts to it's foes, and has killed monsters, demons, gods and more. What it all came down to was that Sara needed to retrieve Sonja's blade from it's resting place in the modern times to take down Ragniel. Once she was able to retrieve the blade, she faced off against Ragniel, and took her foe down thanks to Sonja's blessed blade:

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Again, this was a foe that the Witchblade, with it's mountain to city busting energies, it's taking down world ending threats credentials, could not even manage to harm. Yet Sonja's blade, defeated this powerful foe. This is a sword that has taken down deific beings, and more. This blade has also displayed energy projection type abilities, but since it is used so very little, I won't bother breaking it down, and ignore that aspect of it for this discussion.

I don't think I need to lay down it's credentials any further, since I want to keep this short...so let's move onto her other blade...

The Sword of Sorrow

There are two forms of a Sword of Sorrow, which would be a lesser and greater sword. Sonja obviously wields a greater version, but the best example of what these blades can do, comes from a Vampirella/Jennifer Blood crossover, in which Jennifer is facing some evil nasties, that she empties her guns on. Which as you can see, doesn't slow these creatures in the slightest:

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Jennifer was gifted with a lesser Sword of Sorrow, and being in a jam, facing foes she couldn't harm with her weapons of choice, uses her blade to take the baddies down:

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Since you did not argue a BFR scenario (which seems like it could be in Guen's capabilities to pull off), then I will leave this next aspect of the blade as more of an interesting side note, not really a piece to argue. The greater blades have shown the ability to allow their bearers to travel through dimensions and time. It's not really something I see Sonja trying to pull in combat, not unless Guen tried to trap her in that realm she travels to...but since you didn't argue it, I won't bother with the examples, as I would have to dig through a few books, and in the end, it would truly be neither here nor there. So let us move on from here...

The Stats:

My point is that Guen is significantly stronger than Sonja. As strong as Sonja is, you have scans of her flat out admitting she isn't as strong as Conan and Tarzan. The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with the caliber of opponents she is facing, it has to do with her actual strength. Tarzan and Conan are shown to fight against gorillas, bears, and even forest elephants.

What I have to point out, is that while Guen may be stronger, those opponents weren't entirely shown for the caliber of their skills, nor their notoriety in the world of fiction. Conan has thrown a ship's mast through the hull of another ship, and Tarzan has snapped a pliosaurus' jaw, among other things. Much like Spider-Man, Hobgoblin, and other foes with superhuman strength, arguably stronger than Guen, they haven't managed to truly overpower and keep her down, even in the hand to hand ranges of combat. To reiterate, it is her unique combination of her own tonner level strength, speed, and skill that allows her to manage such.

Though the forest elephant he was using tools and etc. to overpower.

To be fair, he was using a massive tree trunk or log of sorts to tip the elephant. Superhuman feat of strength no matter how you look at it=)

While I can readily admit that Guen is the stronger of the two, that fact is made negligible by Sonja's showings against other tonners. Plus we have to consider the fact that Guen has to successfully snag Sonja to overpower her. With her combat feats against the likes of Vampirella, Spidey, Conan, and so on, plus the numerous examples of her reactionary ability against arrows, crossbow bolts, magic blasts and more...I tend to think that more often than not, Sonja would successfully react to a blitz from Guen. Take for example the time that Sonja was facing three demonic wolves, all at once. While facing down and killing two of them, the third leaps at her with a blurry kind of speed. Sonja reacts last second, flipping around to the creature's back, and cracking it's jaw open while probably snapping it's neck as well:

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That creature had the element of surprise, since Sonja was busy killing it's two equals. Yet she still manages to react to and counter it's leaping blitz attack and she took the beast down. Sonja is quick and agile, with unbelievable combat senses/awareness. I mean, she is fast and stupidly precise with her blade. Another pretty awesome feat, a swarm of magical slug/leech things came flying at her and her companion. Sonja manages to slice and dice all of them, without one landing on her, and then aids her companion, managing to slice some off of him, without cutting him but removing the leeches:

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She has some scary ability, like the time a superhuman foe was charging her, sword drawn. She let the foe get in close, who was already swinging his blade. He catches her blade as he attempts to cut her down, but before he can finish his strike, she had already pulled his very own dagger, and stabbed him with it:

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That is some scary speed and skill. He was already swinging his blade for a kill shot, and she pulls his own dagger from the sheath on his body and stabs him in the head with it. Yowsa.

Sonja has been cut deeply by standard, steel weaponry. Guen has taken blows from bladed steel weapons from post-human levels of strength with only minor injury

Now on this point, feats of Sonja getting cut and taking such damage, are fewer and further between. Namely because she is just generally flat out better than most of the foes she faces:

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Still, I dug around, and found you some feats of her dealing with piercing damage. I showed you her taking a sai through her hand a few posts up, and she didn't even flinch. From one of Sonja's lesser eras, we have a showing where she was being ambushed, and she knocks her two followers out of the way of the barrage of arrows, taking two to her flank. She rips them out, and proceeds to stomp a mudhole into her foes. Now as a defense for Sonja there on not noticing them until they were set to attack, she was still recovering from a deadly poison that nearly killed her, and was still fairly weakened from the experience. Plus, it wasn't Sonja in her prime=P

Another good showing comes directly from Sonja prime. She walks into a heavily guarded keep, soldiers with drawn bows surrounding her on all sides on the walls that were all around her. There were also soldiers on the ground level with her, and the arrows had ropes attached to them. The archers on the walls were accurate enough to miss their allies on the ground level, and they attempted to tag Sonja. She dodged and deflected the majority of the arrows, taking a few scrapes, with an arrow straight through one of her thighs, with ropes draped over and around her. She manages to cut some of the ropes and not be overpowered by the soldiers holding the remaining ropes, plus she blitzed and sliced and diced them, without slowing down any little bit, regardless of her injuries:

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Now sure, her guts aren't hanging out, and she isn't half melted, but she has tanked damage from piercing and cutting weapons, without slowing down. It's just that her avoidance, is top notch. I have less of those kind of feats, because Sonja manages to avoid a lot of that kind of damage. Guen's claws and teeth could harm her...but Guen has to be able to land those hits.

My point is that Guen is facing off against creatures who are at or past the low tonner category. Half-Giants and Half-Ogres can throw around 300 pound rocks like they are footballs. Full blooded ogres, verbeeg, and drider can throw double that. Riding lizards, horses, oxen, and some of the mystical creatures she fights can carry several thousand pounds with only mild encumberance. Yet Guen is able to physically outmatch them all with the strength of her muscles.

Sonja has faced the same caliber of massive foes, if not larger and stronger. Foes larger than mountains that can cut them in two, and foes that tower over cities, creating tidal waves. She has rocked great white sharks with her punches, cracked the ground smacking tonner trolls with a staff, deflected strikes from the larger than Guen beast, the Thunderbull and evaded leaping and large demonic wolves, cracking their jaws and necks with her bare hands. I have shown all of this. While Sonja isn't physically overpowering all of them, her strength, skill and speed are all at just the right level to deal with these foes. Oftentimes playing a game of avoidance with her reflexes, speed and agility, and then cutting them down.

There is no direct comparison to be had between the two in how they have dealt with their more massive and stronger foes. Each is very stupidly impressive in how they have handled such. My overall point is and has always been, that even with Guen's strength and size advantages, it's all a moot point if 10+ tonners can't manage to contain her, and if she can manage to dodge and redirect Guen's attacks. Which I think we have sufficient enough evidence to say that she can...

Again, I have no doubts Sonja has fought faster, my point is that Guen is incredibly fast not only in terms of travel; but combat speed as well.

And here, I really and truly have no disagreements that Guen is incredibly fast. I think she is fast enough that this won't be an easy battle. Although, like you said, Sonja has faced faster, plus she has managed to tag foes with spider-sense. Guen's own skill/experience, plus her overall size and speed, with the ability to mist out to another plane of existence, makes this a truly unique challenge. It's one that I feel Sonja is up for, and one that I think I have proven that she has the ability to conquer.

Again, this is something I believe Guen has in strides. If we are talking blunt force durability, both have more than enough feats against the 10+ ton range of opponents that we can almost call this a stalemate.

Agreed. I still think Sonja can rock her with a punch though, if she managed to rock a great white shark. I am not going to argue that it would take Guen out, but it could be a good move to knock back a massive foe=)

I've also shown her take axe strikes, bolts, arrows, swords, and other attacks with minimal damage. She's got a fair amount of resistant towards steel, stone, and wooden weaponry. Which I believe will be an asset. It's also a good showing of her pain tolerance. Guen can fight through wounds that would easily kill others. She's fought despite being partially melted from acid, or with several of her bones crushed from a cave-in.

On this front, this is where I have less to bring up on Sonja's part, at least from the receiving end of such attacks. Her blunt force, electrical, and explosive resistance are all pretty darn high. I have shown you where she has tanked some piercing and cutting damage without being slowed down...it's just that she generally manages to avoid such damage. I mean, in a weird showing, she faced a supernatural werewolf like creature that she couldn't harm with conventional weapons, at least on the outside. She maneuvers herself to get swallowed by the creature, then cuts her way out, killing it. So she is pretty hardcore and durable. Still, overall, I have to argue the avoidance game for Guen's claws and teeth.

What has to be said though, regardless of Guen's durability...she is facing a foe that tends to decapitate her enemies, slice off limbs, or even just cut them in half. Which she has done to larger and armored beings than herself. This is all stuff that I have shown. Plus, there is her insane aim. What I am getting from Guen, is that while she has a wicked FTE and blitz game, the overall dodging game seems to be on a lesser level than that of Sonja. Sonja's aim is dangerous. If we review some of the major things:

  • She has managed to clip a bugs wings with a thrown dagger at night by the flickering light of torches
  • Tagged foes with perfect head shots while sick and dying of a plague that made her blind
  • While on the deck of a rocking ship threw a sword to another ship and buried it in her target who was up on the mast
  • Made perfect kill shots in mid combat while not even looking at the foe
  • Made a perfect dagger throw into a foe's skull to paralyze but not kill them and so on

All of which has been seen in previous posts. To add to this, she can pierce metal helmets with a dagger throw, pierce the skull of a massive dragon through the mouth with a sword throw, and can kill two foes with a single sai throw. Her ability to tag foes with perfect and deadly accuracy, coupled with the force of her throws...I daresay that even Guen would have issues, considering Sonja is accurate enough to land straight kill shots, and would be less about areas that a foe could obviously survive. Plus, she is wielding two swords that have the ability to really harm the supernatural. Sonja still has to manage a kill shot, but one of these swords, burying deep into Guen, with a kill shot in mind...I don't think she is fighting through that.

Alright my friend, let me finish up one last segment, and we will get this closed out.

Skills/Senses:

Overall, my point of talking about Sonja's senses, isn't to put them over Guen's. All I am aiming to do, is prove that with her superhuman senses, coupled with her speed, reactions and skill, is enough to counter Guen's stealth and speed.

One of the biggest advantages, is Guen's ability to pretty much sense everything. Guen has a supernatural sense that allows her to discern opponents from a distance. She is said here to be able to track the difference between an elk, a rabbit, and a mindflayer. Not via their smell or sound; but by the aura produced by their being.

Seeing auras, does make it a difficult prospect to hide from Guen. That is something that not even the vaunted Conan can do. I will give you, that hiding from Guen with such senses, probably not going to happen. So, let me hammer home my points about Sonja's senses. You see, Sonja's senses are well above and beyond that of a normal human, I think I already proved that. Her senses don't work like a normal human's though, and are in fact, described as working in a supernatural manner as well:

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While Sonja can't see auras, her senses don't work in like a normal human being. Hearing colors? Seeing sounds and smells? Even Wolverine's senses don't operate like that. Guen has faced superhuman senses, but not senses that operate like Sonja's. So she will be lacking in the experience and knowledge to avoid her senses in the manner that they operate. To add to this, Sonja is a beyond proficient tracker:

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Her senses and skill allows her to know when she is being stalked, even when she can't actually see her foe. She is able to keep track of a supernaturally powered hunter in the woods, without ever laying eyes on him:

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Another good example of this is when she detected the Picts, who are basically the equivalent of woodland ninjas in their stealth and sneakiness while in the forest. She could feel them watching her, noting the silence of the forest, and drew her weapon, ready for the attack before they made it:

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Sonja is acutely aware of her environment, keeping track of even a flock of birds, and noting their direction of flight, and what it meant:

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Let's put all of this together, and tackle some points. Sonja's senses are awesome and top notch.

  • She has managed to instantly react to an attack that happened while she was drunk, snoring and sleeping.
  • She has detected the sound of a bow string that was on the second story of building in the middle of a rainstorm.
  • She has detected the legendary stealth master Tarzan, who was stalking her through the jungle.
  • She has detected supernaturally powered foes that were stalking her in the woods.
  • Detected the ninja like and stealthy Picts in the jungle.
  • She has smelled one single foe that was deep in a cave, while she was on the other side of a valley, with an army between her and the foe in the cave.

Really let that last sink in...she detected one scent across an army (who had fires to keep warm, smoke and all) in a valley, and her target was deep in a winding cave. That is something that outshines simply being able to detect a scent from over a mile. If all of this wasn't enough, she has tracked and tagged a group foes through a forest, taking them out with perfect headshots, while she was sick and dying of a plague that made her blind...

Not to mention her multitude of arrow and crossbow timing feats, many of which were fired from behind, while she was occupied with something else. Plus jumping around and dodging electrical style attacks and more. I am going to maintain, she has the pedigree to detect and react to Guen before she can manage to connect with an attack or manage a deadly leaping style attack. This is a character that has managed to keep up with the legendary Spider-Man in hand to hand and not get webbed up, plus managed to turn a deadly attack from the speedy Vampirella into a glancing blow, and then caught Vampirella herself by surprise. She more than has the combat speed to keep up with and take out Guen, couple that with her own supernatural senses, and I like Sonja's chances here.

Plus we also have to factor in that not every area of the battlegrounds affords for stealth. Sonja could easily move this to one of the open areas.

This feat needs some explaining. These are not only drow warriors; but mercenaries of Jarlaxle D'aerthe. Two of these mercenaries were almost enough to kill Drizzt Do'Urden (nameless fodder troops), and one was able to keep Drizzt's equal at bay for most of a fight (Artemis Entreri). So these are oftentimes considered the best warriors the drow have to offer. Yet none of them detect Guen coming, at full speed, to save the ranger from a lightning bolt. Remember how injured she is, she has not been given any time to recover since the prior statement. Not only does she take a lightning blast full force; but she continues to fight with all her prior injuries.

Worthy feat, but remember, Sonja's blades are exceedingly deadly to the supernatural. As previously stated, she will be more apt to go for kill shots, decapitations, and removal of limbs. She has the aim and pedigree to make her thrown blades and her melee range attacks, really, really hurt. I have given ample examples to prove that she is a master swordswoman, and a surgeon with a sword. Her level of skill and ability, coupled with two magic swords...that just might spell the end of poor Guen.

The rest of your points from your stealth section, I am going to leave be. It's not that they aren't worthy feats, I just feel like I will be treading ground I have already covered in this very post. With that said...let's get to the end of this=)

In Closing:

Alright, before I forget, Iron Maiden for your closer? Nothing but respect my friend. Since I have already used some mood music at one point, I will leave it out of my closing post=)

Alright, here are the overall closing thoughts...this is by far one of the most challenging CaVs I have ever participated in. You brought it up in your closing arguments post, and I fully agree with you on that point. It is a difficult prospect to compare these two, but I think we each made a fantastic go at it. Here is how I am looking at this...

Senses

The ability to see auras, makes it hard for Sonja to hide. Now, does Guen win in this category? As stated, Sonja's senses are supernatural as well. Seeing sounds, hearing colors...plus her Wolverine levels of scent detection. Barring plane shifting, I think each can detect the other's stealth abilities, so I will go with a draw on this one.

Stealth

Drow have awesome senses, but so does Conan. They each have stealthy feats against foes with insane senses and abilities. The main thing that makes Guen the winner in the category, is her plane shifting. Still, with supernatural senses, her combat/environmental awareness, and overall combat/reactionary speed, this becomes a negligible category. I will maintain that even with planeshifting on the field, Sonja more than has the credentials to say that she can react to Guen.

Weapons

Even if she wasn't a magical beast, the teeth and claws of a massive dire panther would be a worry. That said, Sonja has two magic blades, capable of taking down supernatural foes that otherwise couldn't really be harmed by other means. They each have the means to harm and kill the other. Even without magic weaponry, Sonja has managed to pierce thick hide of sharkmen while underwater, cut full grown men in armor in half, slice through the limbs/necks/torsos/heads of giant monsters and more, pierce metal helmets with thrown weapons, pierce numerous creatures from long ranges with thrown swords and more. Magic weapons or not, the ability to harm and kill the other, is about equal. Draw again.

Skill

This is a tough one. The nature of their skills and abilities are so vastly different, it is hard to judge. Each have faced a variety foes, both lesser and superior, and managed to come out on top. Each have shown to be exceedingly talented and versatile in combat. And each have been shown to stomp arse, regardless of their foe's size and skill. Skill and experience is close enough to call another draw.

Durability/Avoidance

I have to couple these together, because they work hand in hand for the case of this debate. Blunt force, explosive, and so on, that is about a tie between the two. Cutting and piercing...the main reason Guen pulls ahead, is that Sonja is just lacking in those feats due to her superior avoidance abilities. When it comes to avoiding damage, Sonja takes the cake between these two. While Guen's pain tolerance and ability to fight through damage that would have felled most foes is commendable, I kind of feel like she takes more hits than Sonja in most combat situations. At least in the scenarios that she isn't able to simply blitz a foe=)

Strength

Guen is stronger. I cannot argue that, although as shown and stated time and time again, Sonja's particular blend of her own tonner strength, skill, speed and reactionary ability, makes this a negligible category. Guen may have more mass than Conan, Tarzan, etc...but Sonja can rock a great white shark with a punch (between 1,500 to 2,400 lbs on average...quite a bit more than Guen), and has managed to deal with larger foes, without getting overpowered. Plus Sonja's striking force with a thrown blade or simply swinging a weapon in her hands...more than makes up for her lesser strength.

Speed

Guen has the faster travel speed. Her combat speed overall, is pretty insane, and will keep Sonja on her toes. Yet as you admitted yourself, Sonja has just plain dealt with faster opponents. She has managed to tag the likes of Spidey (spider-sense and all) and managed to avoid his webbing, which is arguably faster than a bullet. While Guen can cross 50 feet in the blink of an eye, and may rival a speed equal to that of a record breaking arrow shot...Guen is far larger than an arrow, and Sonja has a history of casually reacting to and dealing with arrows, crossbow bolts and more. Fired from behind, in a swarm in front of her, and from all around her. Numerous smaller but equally speedy targets, that are harder to track with the eyes than a 600 lb panther. Sonja takes the cake in combat speed and reactionary ability.

Overall Verdict

I think each has the capability to take the win here, but the overall champion based on everything seen and discussed, I have to stick with Sonja. Guen is a scary foe, and would not go down easy. The problem is, most of her advantages can be nullified.

  • Strength is negligible with her avoidance and her superhuman striking force plus magic weaponry makes up for her lesser strength.
  • Each I think has more than the ability to detect the other with their supernatural senses and awareness...so overall, stealth is negligible as well.
  • Guen has the greater mobility with plane shifting and her travel speed, but Sonja boasts the greater combat speeds and avoidance abilities. She has dealt with faster, and Guen is easier to see than an arrow or crossbow bolt.
  • Plane shifting leaves a telltale dark mist, and the stealth advantages of that can be nullified in an open area, where mist is easily spotted.
  • Their weapons can harm one another, although Sonja has the advantage with her deadly and insane aim, of which she can toss regular weapons with a crazy striking force, and she can throw a magic blade just as well. One throw of either magic weapon, can end this fight.
  • Each are insanely skilled. It is just Sonja's skill coupled with her advantages, is just enough to give her the win, more often than not.

And there it is...

Phew...alright, I think that will about do it for my part in things. Let's close this out with a quadruple threat for my Red Sonja cosplay hawtness, being the last post and all:

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Well...I guess that is it. Kind of sad to see this end...but it is time to open the floor for the voters...

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#49 Edited by Wyldsong (9718 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @higherpower: @awshucks: @the_red_viper: @vsw: @destinyman75: @floopay: @manaman: @madscientist224: I think I got everybody. Hopefully it was worth the read. Regardless of how the vote swings, I think this is a discussion that myself and @floopay can be proud of. Sorry for the wait on this. I probably will come back and correct typos, which I know are there, but I wanted to get this out there. Unless @floopay wants to say or add anything else, overall, this is finished. Sad to see this finished, but it was a fun experience.

I think we can open this for votes, so feel free my friends...

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#50 Posted by destinyman75 (13886 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing Job guys again. What a unique Cav. My vote stands however the closing really didn't change much enjoyed the hell out of this...