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#1 Edited by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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Gintoki (Primez0ne)

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Jessica Jones (Amendment50)

Rules:

Victory by incap, KO or death.

Both are in-character. The fight is a random encounter.

Gintoki has standard gear. Jessica is unarmed.

Starting distance is 20 ft, starting across from each other on the road.

Location:

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#2 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

use mcu jessica so i can post the plank gif

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#6 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by nobunaga101 (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#10 Posted by OldKaiser (2988 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#11 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by SMXLR8 (6746 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#14 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Sorry but I had more work than I thought I did. I may take a day or two to finish it.

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#15 Posted by MiracleComeBack (2141 posts) - - Show Bio

Big props for gin tama related thread

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#16 Posted by nobunaga101 (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

tag 4 vote

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#17 Edited by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50:Note to you and all of the voters: I will only be using anime feats as I have only watched the anime and I don't feel it's necessary to go back to the manga as the anime is pretty loyal as it is. I'll be sure to hang myself after finishing this CAV.

Gintoki Sakata

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Bio

The earliest time we see of Gintoki Sakata is when he was scavenging battlefields as a kid known as the "corpse-eating demon". During this time he met his future teacher, Yoshida Shouyou, who later adopted young Gintoki into his school to learn the way of the Samurai and other things. After some time the Amanto(aliens) invaded Japan and established a new government that began to purge all dissidents. Gin's teacher was taken and their school was burned down. He joined up with several of his friends to take part in the Joui Wars where samurai tried to revolt against the Amanto backed Bafuku(government). Gintoki ends up having to kill his teacher to protect his friends which earns him the ire of Takasagi, a fellow student of Yoshida. A few years later Gintoki is now the founder of Yorozuya, a business where the employees would do anything for a price.

Combat Prowess

Going from here I'll be using several of his fights to demonstrate his strength, skill, and pain tolerance.

Strength/Striking Power

First I'll show some parts of his fight with Hosen, the former ruler of Yoshiwara. Hosen was a Yato. The Yato are vampire-like Amanto that have superhuman physicals, and even among the superhuman Yato Hosen was considered the strongest. On several occasions in their fight Gintoki has shown that he could stand up to Hosen's monstrous strength and even tank some of his blows.

Near the beginning of the fight Gintoki blocks a strike from Hosen which had been able to decimate the wooden bridge beneath Gintoki. This is even more impressive as you can see that Gintoki had to do so while his own footing was destroyed and he fell down at least a dozen feet.

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Later in the same fight Gintoki is also able to hit Hosen enough to cough up blood.

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Hosen has been able to tank a punch to the face by Kamui, a fellow Yato, who has shown that he can punch through other Yatos.

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And finally he was able to push Hosen hard enough to crater the wall.

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With this much it should be evident that Gintoki can draw blood from Jessica as the fight goes on and KO her.

Pain Tolerance/Endurance

After receiving a beating the night before and having his hand stabbed through, Gintoki has to face a group of Amanto assassins with the help of Jirocho. Then at the end of the fight Jirocho and Gintoki have one final showdown. They do this having multiple injuries before the fight began and never slow down after receiving even more injuries. Needless to say but the MC wins.

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I'm sorry for having to subject you to a horrible AMV. I suggest muting it.

The below feat alone shows the immense amount of pain tolerance that Gintoki has that easily surpasses any other street-leveler in any medium.

Gintoki break-dances after having his testicles ripped off and while they are being used in a battle between two opposing sorcerers.

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Agility/Speed

Although Gintoki is very willing to take damage to win a fight, he is capable of avoiding attacks or faster opponents. In the below video Gintoki and Katsura( a friend, ally in the Joui, and fellow student of Yoshida) battle a group of Amanto pirates. Throughout this fight Gintoki improvises by using different weapons and is able to go through the entire fight without taking a hit. In the process he also dodges multiple thrown projectiles.

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While injured Gintoki can catch Kunai out of the air. Admittedly he has been hit with Kunai on multiple occassions but he has either dodged or deflected them just as many times.

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Special Attacks

Joke section if you can't tell.

Like any good anime/manga character Gintoki possesses a multitude of unique powerful techniques capable of ending any given fight.

Firstly an attack that destroy an entire spaceship in one blow.

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Next one is his signature "Turtle Destruction Wave" technique. This is an attack that is capable of harming even the likes of Goku.

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And finally his most powerful attack:

Kicking a can

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By simple scaling this would be at least a continental level attack but using calcs this has been agreed to be at least an universal+ attack.

Initial Considerations

  • Gintoki is a skilled sword fighter that has experience with strong skilled fighters like Jessica Jones.
  • He can take a hit if necessary and is hard to slow down even with injuries.
  • I'm going to assume that Jessica Jones is far less skilled than Gintoki considering he has fought in a war using only a sword and has plenty of experience.
  • Gintoki may hold back on a random woman he just met but will get more serious once he can see what she can do.
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#18 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@miraclecomeback said:

Big props for gin tama related thread

Do you want a tag once this is done?

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#19 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1830 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#20 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne: Looks good. I'll get my opener up ASAP.

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#21 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: I really wanted to edit my post but it seems like I cannot. I wasn't going to add much other than another feat and fix some grammar problems so it's no problem if you finish your post before I edit.

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#22 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne: That's alright, I don't know how soon I can get a response up. I'm pretty sure you should have time to make edits

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#23 Edited by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica Jones:

Okay, let me start off by putting a language warning over the whole CaV. Jessica likes to use four letter words in her early appearances so keep that in mind as you proceed.

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Biography:

Jessica Jones, wife of Luke Cage and mother of Danielle, is a private investigator, former superhero and member of the New Avengers. Following the car accident that killed her family, Jessica developed superpowers that gave her strength, speed and stamina well above any average person. While in her early appearances she was severely out of practice and out of shape, at her best Jessica has shown to have strength on the level of super soldiers and has a number of standout feats that allow her to compensate for a general lack of skill.

Overall, Jessica's real foe has never really been the forces of evil- more like the forces of shitty New York life in a world full of crazy-ass superheroes. Jessica has never really been the hero type and tends to shy away from fights, but more recently her experiences alongside her husband Luke Cage have given her a lot more experience and training at using her superpowers, bringing her physicals back to her peak and giving her control over her ability to fly again.

Jessica has threatened Wolverine to his face, bitch-slapped Spiderman and constantly intimidates the hell out of Luke Cage. All in all she is one tough lady and she will certainly not go down without a fight.

Strength:

Raw strength is Jessica's best asset and the one area where she almost certainly outclasses Gintoki. It is true that she has had some difficulty even with ordinary humans but that is mostly from her lowest point both mentally and physically and she has improved a lot since then.

And even then, from Alias, which has her lowest showings:

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Jessica easily punks a hitman who got the drop on her.

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Tears through a chain-link fence with her bare hands.

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And one-shots Spider-woman (Jessica Drew).

Her feats have only gotten better with time, and she is especially dangerous with bloodlust. While this fight is in-character, fighting someone who is fast and skilled like Gintoki will make her feel threatened, which as seen above is what gets Jess to tease out her power in the first place.

Some of Jessica's more recent showings of strength:

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Puts her fist through the hood of a car with a casual punch.

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Casually tears through thin steel.

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Fucks up a Doombot that was endangering Luke Cage.

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Hurts Kang with a kick and disarms him.

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Hurts a giant with a punch, and tosses another one to the ground.

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Smashes up the side of a truck and incaps a Skrull at the same time.

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Knocks back an enhanced Luke Cage with a punch.

It is also worth noting that this increased level of strength seen at the time of New Avengers isn't just the PIS Bendis-force at work. Alias made it very clear that Jessica was at a low point for her powers during that story which can clearly be seen by her superior feats shown in flashbacks during that book.

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After just discovering her powers Jessica was strong enough to push over a tree and casually lift a bicycle with one hand.

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Not long afterward she one-shot Scorpion who has fought Spiderman and given him trouble.

As Jewel she was even better, and demonstrated a scary level of strength and resilience when bloodlusted via Purple Man.

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Picks up and throws a whole police car.

This is the level of what she's capable when really pushed. I believe her level of strength will be too much for Gintoki to overpower over the course of this fight.

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Overpowers a group of demons that in numbers were overwhelming Luke Cage and even the Thing.

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A full-strength punch created a large shockwave that one-shot a number of them and saved Luke's life.

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Had Green Goblin at her mercy until he was rescued by his glider. Even Spiderman was impressed by that.

I think these scans are more than enough to prove that Jessica is capable of strength and striking power on par with high tier street levelers. While Gintoki's blocking of Hosen's attack, and subsequent scaling, is certainly impressive, it should be clear that Jessica is capable of putting out quite a bit more damage than that when pushed so Gintoki is going to have to rely on his other assets, as he cannot overpower Jess.

Durability:

Jessica is honestly a bit of a wuss when it comes to durability; her strength is certainly her more impressive trait. That said Jessica has herself stated that she has superhuman durability and she can certainly survive attacks that would kill an ordinary person.

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She's tougher than she looks.

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During her brief, edgy, emotionally-charged stint as Knightress (still inexperienced here) she tanked a knife in the back and fought right through it.

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She tanked a blast that knocked back Captain America and Iron Man and was only scratched up.

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She survived an indirect blast that blew the top half of a building to smithereens and critically injured Luke Cage.

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Also tanked another indirect blast that blew out an apartment building.

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She took a punch from a man hopped up on MGH (mutant growth hormone- gives ordinary people superpowers) without any lasting injury (while not at her prime).

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She can drop the height of a building with no issue.

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She even took a fall into the water from the NYC skyline without any injury at all.

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Tanked having a pile of rubble thrown on her by a giant that could tear through the Avengers mansion with his bare hands.

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Said attack she was also there for, and not injured during.

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She tanked a punch from a magic-amped Luke Cage that knocked her dozens of feet away, and returned without injury.

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Said Luke's strength was giving Captain Marvel, the Thing, Iron Fist and Wolverine all trouble at the same time, so needless to say he was hitting really hard at the time.

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She took both a blast from Iron Man's repulsors and an enragedpunch from Vision (she had just clocked Scarlet Witch in the face), one after the other, and survived.

Because Jess hasn't been in a lot of lasting fights on her own, she is a bit deficient in durability feats, however I think she has enough impressive showings against beings with heavy super strength to prove that she can hold her own against blows from the significantly weaker Gintoki.

Speed/Mobility:

First off, Jessica can fly, and currently has pretty much total control of this ability, which gives her a big advantage when it comes to mobility. While she doesn't regularly dodge kunai or anything of that sort, if Gintoki goes for a rush with his speed or something of that nature, Jessica can still clear the area with flight and attack from a different angle. Her flight speed is also faster than her ground speed, and doubtless Gintoki would have trouble contending with a bullrush from the air.

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Some casual and precise flight even while out of practice.

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Jessica is fast enough even on the ground to casually catch up to a man with a 20-foot lead who is already at full sprint.

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Fast and evasive enough to briefly evade gunfire from a robber.

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Casually creates a blur-streak behind her while in flight around the city.

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Tags Green Goblin out of midair fast enough to steal his glider.

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Narrowly dodges a blow from Thor Slowdinson.

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Bullrushes and clocks Scarlet Witch in the face before she can react.

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Hits Spider-Woman before she can react.

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Wallops Ock-Spiderman in the face before he can react even with his spider-sense. It's practically stated on-panel here that she outsped the spider-sense considering he bragged about it literally one sentence earlier, so this one's hard to argue against. (This also is a pretty good strength feat btw.)

While Jessica isn't the fastest superhuman around she does have increased reaction speed that should allow her to at least contend with Gintoki. She has not had trouble tagging opponents faster than him in the past so I see no reason why he should be too much for her in that regard. Aside from that, her ability to fly gives her much more control of this fight which should be a much larger advantage than Gintoki's agility.

Gameplan:

Gintoki will be a fight for Jessica, but she has too many advantages where it counts. Her raw strength is significantly greater and her durability and speed are enough to last long enough to beat him down. He may have pain tolerance but that only goes so far against someone whose striking power can hurt foes well out of his durability paygrade. Her flight will also mitigate his ability to control the fight with speed, and her ability to bullrush using it means that once Jessica gets pissed and really pushes herself his options are extremely limited against her.

Sooner or later this fight will come down to a match of strength above all else. And in the words of my old MCU Jessica CaV, once it does, Jessica will beat the crap out of him.

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@primez0ne: Okey doke, that's all for my opener on Jessica. Sorry it took me so long to get this up, bit of a busy week and I had a closer for my other CaV to make. I'm looking forward to getting into this and I'm excited to have an opponent that is a fair fight for Miss Jones. Hopefully this debate can give both our characters some nice time in the limelight.

Good luck moving forward!

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#24 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Using less gifs since I had trouble posting last time.

Strength

I think these scans are more than enough to prove that Jessica is capable of strength and striking power on par with high tier street levelers. While Gintoki's blocking of Hosen's attack, and subsequent scaling, is certainly impressive, it should be clear that Jessica is capable of putting out quite a bit more damage than that when pushed so Gintoki is going to have to rely on his other assets, as he cannot overpower Jess.

Jess can definitely throw a punch, but this is nothing he has not seen before. Gintoki has battled Obi Wan Kenobi Obi One Kenofi, a skilled swordsman. Obi was essentially a Star Wars parody character with a pseudo lightsaber beam saber and a metal arm capable of projecting a laser sword and shooting powerful lasers. Despite holding back against this powerful warrior in an attempt not to kill him Gintoki was still able to tank multiple hits from him.

Obi blasted him with a laser capable of partially destroying a large bridge earlier and, a wall(2:00) and lighting up their entire floor. He even blocked it at one point but had trouble doing so because of the crumpling floors(2:19).

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As you can see in the video Kenofi also later blasted him through a stone pillar(2:45). He then gets run through with the beam saber. Despite all of this Gintoki was still conscious at the end to deliver a finishing blow to Obi. This amount of pain tolerance/durability should show that he can tank a direct hit should it become necessary. Most likely Gintoki should be able to block one of Jessica's punches with his sword or simply dodge. Gintoki with his sword, Lake Toya, has even deflected a powerful laser beam from Dark Vader that could disarm a gundam of its gun and shield. Gintoki does not have to use his strength to overpower Jessica and has often used his skill and speed to win fights as shown against Hosen and his battle against the pirates.

Durability

Because Jess hasn't been in a lot of lasting fights on her own, she is a bit deficient in durability feats, however I think she has enough impressive showings against beings with heavy super strength to prove that she can hold her own against blows from the significantly weaker Gintoki.

Although Gintoki can't hit as hard as several of the people Jess has taken hits from he has the benefit of having a sustained fight with her and looser morals. I don't feel Gintoki would begin the fight this way but he has shown on numerous occasions that he is capable of stabbing someone even with the blunt wooden sword he uses.

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This is not something that Gin would do unless he was serious, but as the fight goes on and he sees how much of a threat Jessica is I'm sure he would eventually go for a more lethal approach.

Also Gintoki has quite a bit of striking power himself as he's able to bust a giant hole in a metal wall in one-shot(1:33 of the first video).

Gintoki does not have to possess greater striking power than Iron Man or Luke Cage if he can consistently hit her while dancing around her attacks with his superior skill, speed, and range. Even if it's only a small advantage Gin can attack from a farther distance due to using a sword while Jessica is struck with mostly using her fists and maybe the occasional thrown projectile. As the fight wears on Gin will become more and more likely to use piercing attacks which would cause Jess to eventually slow down and die from blood lost.

Speed/Mobility

While Jessica isn't the fastest superhuman around she does have increased reaction speed that should allow her to at least contend with Gintoki. She has not had trouble tagging opponents faster than him in the past so I see no reason why he should be too much for her in that regard. Aside from that, her ability to fly gives her much more control of this fight which should be a much larger advantage than Gintoki's agility.

Jessica's flight might serve to let her gain a bit more mobility in the battle but her only significant means of doing harm is through her fists. This greatly limits her effective combat range as she will have to get extremely close to Gin to hurt him; therefore, her flight becomes limited as well.

Gin has faced down multiple fast moving opponents before. One of which is Hattori Zenzou, one of the top assassins in the country. During the fight you can see him move FTE several times. Despite this Zenzou never manages to properly tag Gin and Gin actually scores a solid hit on him.

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Gintoki was also able to react to the very fast Jiraia who often was depicted as being able move FTE too and even Gin had trouble following his movements. Although Gin could deflect rapid fire kunai coming his way and dodge others he did ultimately lose. This was particularily due to Gin having no idea how he moved in mid air.

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Once Gintoki knew how to fight Jiraia, Gin was able to tag him multiple times and even use his environment to his advantage to win the fight.

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To further hone in on Gintoki's skill and his use of the environment to his advantage I'll showcase his skills. Sorry for another AMV but at least this one isn't bad.

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There's a lot in here in terms of feats for Gin so I'll use bullet points. You should watch the whole video though.

  • 0:16 Gin breaks a metal sword simply by biting it. He then craters the wall simply by stabbing into it.
  • 0:30 He dodges multiple needles.
  • 0:55 While sliding down some stairs he uses his sword to change his position, KOs one monk, takes his weapon, and takes out the other two. Even though he started in a disadvantageous situation and got himself out of it very quickly.
  • Right after Gintoki uses two of the Monk's bodies as a distraction to hide behind them and hit Oboro when he couldn't see him coming.
  • 2:07 Hits Oboro hard enough to send him flying into a wall which begins to crumble from the force of Gin's strike. This rematch happened on the same night so Gintoki had all of the same injuries as before. The only difference is that he got the antidote for the poison from the darts that hit him before. Next Gin deflects several thrown needles and even uses Oboro's own technique to attack the pressure points after only seeing it once.
  • 2:55 Gintoki and Oboro break each other's swords in a midair fall. Gintoki then throws down his broken sword into the ground to then impale Oboro on it.

From this alone you can see how exceptional Gin's ability to adapt from the opponent and the environment to gain an advantage. As shown in his fights you can also see his vast amount of skill as he easily uses whatever weapon he has on hand and even takes those of his opponents to use on them. He can, for example, use the nearby trees to further limit Jessica's flight capabilities while outmaneuvering her in the trees.

Re:Gameplan

Gintoki will be a fight for Jessica, but she has too many advantages where it counts. Her raw strength is significantly greater and her durability and speed are enough to last long enough to beat him down. He may have pain tolerance but that only goes so far against someone whose striking power can hurt foes well out of his durability paygrade. Her flight will also mitigate his ability to control the fight with speed, and her ability to bullrush using it means that once Jessica gets pissed and really pushes herself his options are extremely limited against her.

Gintoki in general has faced a wide assortment of powerful enemies with many of them having better skills or weapons than she possesses. She will have trouble fighting a opponent that is much more skilled than her and can start developing tactics to counter Jessica's abilities. He is also able to pierce people with his sword, so if he finds that hitting her with his sword is less than effective, he can sill stab her multiple times. While her flight will give her added mobility, she can only attack within arms reach which would give Gin added range in a CQC fight. If Jessica bullrushes Gin he can always dodge, block for some time, or even using the environment to trick her. Gintoki can definitely tank a punch or two.

Sooner or later this fight will come down to a match of strength above all else. And in the words of my old MCU Jessica CaV, once it does, Jessica will beat the crap out of him

Gin has experience facing those that are stronger than him. His ability to hurt Jessica, better skills, and better control over the battle could very well allow him to win in this scenario.

Most importantly Gintoki has feats fighting women in parks.

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#27 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne: I'm writing up a response to this. Sorry I've taken so long, this debate genuinely completely slipped my mind up until now.

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#28 Posted by CaptainGanon (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: I don't understand the nature of this thread...

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#29 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne: I realize I never came back to this, I really apologize for that. As I've read more and Jessica has gotten more feats I don't really think this fight is fair anymore. However I'm interested in using Jessica in another debate; it only seems fair to give you a heads up for that. In case you want to debate her with a different character, I wanted to ask you first.

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#30 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Do you think Songbird is a fair match now? You can look again at the Songbird pm we had if you still have it.

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#31 Edited by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne said:

@amendment50: Do you think Songbird is a fair match now? You can look again at the Songbird pm we had if you still have it.

three weeks later :P

Yeah actually I think Songbird is a solid match, if you're interested.

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#32 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: I would be interested, but I would need to gather some feats. Do you want to start now?

I'm currently hosting a scenario, so I may be a little late on posting. I can definitely finish though.

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#33 Posted by Amendment50 (15454 posts) - - Show Bio

@primez0ne: I can make the OP now, but if you don't mind I'd really rather you make the opening post so I can get a more full gauge of Songbird. Don't worry about time though.

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#34 Posted by Primez0ne (9955 posts) - - Show Bio