CaV: Gildarts Clive (Woodward) VS Gerard Valkyrie (LichVanAstrea)

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LichVanAstrea

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#1  Edited By LichVanAstrea
Gildarts Clive, backed up by Woodward
Gildarts Clive, backed up by Woodward
No Caption Provided
Gerard Valkyrie, backed up by LichVanAstrea
Gerard Valkyrie, backed up by LichVanAstrea

Rules

  • Morals off, bloodlust on
  • No prior knowledge, random encounter
  • Canon feats only
  • Win by any means necessary

CaV Rules

  • This is a CaV, so as always, do not post your opinions regarding the battle itself.
  • If you want to vote and view every post made, leave a T4V/TAEP tag.
  • Remain calm and civilized. Let's not be hostile to others.
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LichVanAstrea

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@shirso Tagging you cause you wanted to be here for TAEP.

@woodward Alright, I'm still in class, but I have enough time to set up the post. I'll also give us both all the time we need to do research, prepare and stuff because I'm sure you and I have more important things to deal with in life. Are there any rules you want me to change or you're ok with this?

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Woodward

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@lichvanastrea: All looks good. Since you're in class, does that mean I start the intro or you?

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TOPAZZZ

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lol, TAEP

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Undeckedlion395

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LichVanAstrea

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@woodward: I’m actually heading home right now but yeah, you start.

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Chronicplane

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#7  Edited By Chronicplane

T4V.

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FaradaySloth

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Woodward should do a gauntlet of Bleach Debaters lel.

T4V and TAEP

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AnimeFreak1

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Gildarts is an unholy stomp.

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VarricPatermann

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T4V and TAEP

Gildarts is an unholy stomp.

Dude, that isn´t a regular debate, that is a CaV. Let them debate and vote later for one side.

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AnimeFreak1

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Saxz

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#12  Edited By Saxz  Online

First Hades vs Yhwach then Galan vs Hokage Naruto.I don't think My heart can take another.

Lol TAEP

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El_directo_

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Woodward

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#14  Edited By Woodward

@lichvanastrea

Apologies for the delay, I had personal things to take care of. Anyways, my opener should be finished by today

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MrViking

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T4V & TAEP please.

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LichVanAstrea

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@woodward: It's cool. Like I said, both you and I have all the time in the world so feel free to use as much time you need.

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Woodward

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I wish my opponent a good luck.

---------------------------

Firstly, I would start of by stating Crush would negate The Miracle, because latter's ability works by converting physical damage to increase Gerard's own stats. Unfortunately for Gerard, Crush is a magic-based ability (completely foreign concept to Bleach's Reiryoku, so Gerard doesn't have any magic resistance feats to say he can regenerate from getting turned into small cubes.

Secondly, Gildarts completely outclasses Gerard in destructive capacity and stats.

Gildarts by merely flexing his passive power can level an entire city. We know this because Magnolia had restructured the city with technological mechanisms every time Gildarts visited the city, because he accidently destroyed it. When not holding back, Gildarts can easily level the entire landscape as shown below:

-He casually destroys a mountain indirectly, with nothing but sheer physicals.

-He obliterates a battlefield casually.

Gildarts also scales massively above the likes of Erza in both destructive capacity and physical strength (Erza is a physical fighter), who had done 2 island-level feats; one being she ploughed a hole through the cubic island and the other being she destroyed a meteor, which upon entering the planet's atmosphere created this shockwave. By comparison, Gerard's high-end feats were only skyscraper level at best, and those were only accomplished because he was getting boost from the Miracle; such boost won't exist in this matchup for stated reasons above.

Gildarts's other feats of strength include being completely unfazed by Bluenote's gravity, which was doing this and a black hole stated to have infinite gravity. His strength feats also include the ones above, being the mountain and battlefield. So by actual showings, Gildart's DC and strength feats are visually above Gerard's, and if you wanna go into the road of scaling, then this also holds true.

In terms of speed, although Gildarts doesn't rely on speed himself, his portrayal-standing in the manga as Fairy Tail's strongest wizard means he scales massively above his guild members in speed.

-Several FT members in BOS (1st time-skip was 7 years and 2nd time skip was a year) have displayed lightning speed (Mach 300) feats, being done by Gajeel, Natsu, Laxus etc.

-Other speed feats include Jellal's meteor speed and Erza outspeeding Irene's Deus Sema, which was at least sub-relativistic, considering the meteor was travelling planets worth of distance.

By comparison, lightning speed doesn't exist in Bleach (only if you accept the DB hyperbole) and Gin's Mach 500 (later proven false) is considered to be fast, so Gerard's speed would be around that range even though he has no concrete feats, while Gildarts logically scales above that.

Summing things up: Gildart's Crush Magic would negate the properties of The Miracle, due to Gerard's non-existence resistance to magic, and Gildart's stats by showings is superior to Gerard's.

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RikuYamaha

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very good intro post. i can tell this is gonna be spicy.

T4V and TAEP

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Undeckedlion395

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LichVanAstrea

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#22  Edited By LichVanAstrea

Alright. Before I give my feedback, let me introduce who this blonde Thor boy is.

No Caption Provided

Introduction

Gerard Valkyrie is a Quincy that serves Yhwach's empire, the Wandereich. He is one of the four elite Sternritter and is given the designated schrift, "M", the Miracle. Gerard is very unique among not just the Sternritter but the Quincy also, because the source of his power was not something given to him from Yhwach's Auswählen but rather it was something he was always born with. That is because Gerard, according to legends, is actually the heart of the Soul King himself.

Powers and Abilities

The Miracle

The main thing to go over here is Gerard's main power, the Miracle. By manifesting the hopeful thoughts and desires of himself and the fears of his opponents being unable to kill him, the Miracle renders any physical damage done to Gerard useless. Not only will Gerard regenerate from these attacks, but his size and strength will increase to a tremendous level.

Quincy: Vollständig

By using a Quincy Zeichen with his blood, Gerard is able to transform himself into a more powerful form. Most of this will be covered in the Strength/Attack Potency.

Strength/Attack Potency

In base form, Gerard does not have much to offer but pulls off some good feats. A single strike from his sword was able to blow a hole through the Vestibule Road to the Soul King's royal palace and later, another swing from his sword was able to do significant damage to the Tree of Life. A tree that sustains itself by feeding off of Reiatsu.

When he's initially killed by Byakuya, his size increases, along with his strength. The Miracle of course plays a role in this. This is the form he assumes; his Godly Size.

No Caption Provided

In this form, he becomes a mountain sized giant. He becomes strong enough to snap a skyscraper like a toothpick and fling it back with ease. Here, he tries to kill Shinji with his hand, destroying the battlefield around him. He continues destroying more buildings with a backhand and a blow of wind. As the Gotei 13 receive more help from the likes of Toshiro and Kenpachi, Gerard backhands Kenpachi into a pile of buildings at a fast rate.Twice.

Eventually, Gerard is defeated by Kenpachi when he goes into his Bankai state and slices him in half...but this leads Gerard to his next transformation, Quincy Vollständig.

No Caption Provided

In this form, Gerard is capable of shooting out energy beams that are powerful enough to destroy the entire battlefield around him once more, but at a larger scale:

Toshiro later in his Bankai keeps him frozen with a flash freeze. But Gerard manages to break free with no effort.

With the combined forces of Toshiro, Kenpachi and Byakuya once more, they're able to defeat Gerard. However, Gerard once again resurrects in a more powerful form.

No Caption Provided

This form doesn't have any significant feats as Gerard's power was shortly taken away after by Yhwach, but according to Toshiro, his previous forms were nothing compared to this and that calling him a monster would be an understatement.

Speed

Gerard in his base form doesn't have any significant speed feats, but in his later forms, he is able to consistently tag with Kenpachi, Byakuya and Toshiro. Kenpachi in particular prior had reacted to a falling meteor that was going to destroy Seireitei shortly, who Byakuya can keep up with. In addition to this, Ichigo (a character that Kenpachi also keeps up with) was able to react to lightning falling down from the clouds. So overall, Gerard should easily scale to massively hypersonic speed.

Durability

In his first giant form, he was able to block Byakuya's Senbonzakura, a technique of metal shards. Later in the battle, the Visored attempt to blow him up with their combined forces. But Gerard manages to survive that with no scratches/damage done to him.

Wings

No Caption Provided

During his battle with Kenpachi, Gerard was able to generate wings and thus, he has the ability to take flight. He later grows a larger pair in Quincy: Vollständig.

Heilig Bogen

No Caption Provided

By absorbing the spiritual energy that surrounds the atmosphere, Gerard can use it to create weapons made out of Reishi. One of these is the Heilig Bogen, a bow and arrow that he can summon by clapping his hands together.

Weapons and Equipment

Spirit Weapon: Hoffnung

No Caption Provided

Gerard's main weapon, his sword, the Hoffnung. It is a sword sheathed in his hope by the Miracle, meaning that no matter how much damage it receives, it cannot be broken.

If the sword were to receive even a small chip done to it, the person that damaged it would receive a large slash in return.

Shield

Gerard carries a shield with him that can block physical attacks. It is capable of withstanding Kenpachi's swings in his regular state.

Cape

Gerard's got that cape that surprisingly acts as a barrier. Neat.

Alright, now with that stuff out of the way, let's see what you have to say here.

Thoughts

@woodward said:

Firstly, I would start of by stating Crush would negate The Miracle, because latter's ability works by converting physical damage to increase Gerard's own stats. Unfortunately for Gerard, Crush is a magic-based ability (completely foreign concept to Bleach's Reiryoku, so Gerard doesn't have any magic resistance feats to say he can regenerate from getting turned into small cubes.

I don't see how that would negate the Miracle. The only thing that would do is reduce Gerard to an army of miniature versions of himself, which only proceed to dogpile on Gildarts. So there are two things that will happen here; either Gildarts get overwhelmed by the army and forces the magic to wear off or Gerard waits for it to wear off, as Gildarts stated it himself.

Secondly, Gildarts completely outclasses Gerard in destructive capacity and stats.

Gildarts by merely flexing his passive power can level an entire city. We know this because Magnolia had restructured the city with technological mechanisms every time Gildarts visited the city, because he accidently destroyed it. When not holding back, Gildarts can easily level the entire landscape as shown below:

-He casually destroys a mountain indirectly, with nothing but sheer physicals.

-He obliterates a battlefield casually.

This is all nice, but I'm not seeing anything here that surpasses Gerard's destructive capabilities. I've shown that Gerard was destroying the battlefield around him constantly.

Gildarts also scales massively above the likes of Erza in both destructive capacity and physical strength (Erza is a physical fighter), who had done 2 island-level feats; one being she ploughed a hole through the cubic island and the other being she destroyed a meteor, which upon entering the planet's atmosphere created this shockwave.

Again, nothing here suggests he surpasses Gerard. He was matching with Kenpachi, someone who destroyed a meteor that was going to destroy Seireitei, which has been caluclated to be the size of a large island (or small country if you want to stretch), so if anything, Gerard is way above Gildarts here.

By comparison, Gerard's high-end feats were only skyscraper level at best, and those were only accomplished because he was getting boost from the Miracle; such boost won't exist in this matchup for stated reasons above.

Destroying most of the city around him is only skyscraper level? Come on now.

Gildarts's other feats of strength include being completely unfazed by Bluenote's gravity, which was doing this and a black hole stated to have infinite gravity. His strength feats also include the ones above, being the mountain and battlefield. So by actual showings, Gildart's DC and strength feats are visually above Gerard's, and if you wanna go into the road of scaling, then this also holds true.

Black holes in fiction tend to not be consistent with how black holes actually work in real life. If that black hole functioned exactly like one in real life, it would have instantly suck everything up, especially seeing how Bluenote claims its gravity is said to be infinite.

By comparison, lightning speed doesn't exist in Bleach (only if you accept the DB hyperbole)

Yes it does. I've proven this by showing Ichigo reacting and reflecting back lightning being struck down from the clouds. And if the statement from the databook you're referring to is from the first databook, you're gonna have to prove how that's hyperbolic, because nothing in Bleach has contradicted that statement.

and Gin's Mach 500 (later proven false) is considered to be fast, so Gerard's speed would be around that range even though he has no concrete feats, while Gildarts logically scales above that.

Where was this proven false? Gin only lied to Aizen about it but we don't know what exact measurements he told to him in comparison to what he told him to Ichigo. Not only does Gin have no reason to lie to Ichigo about it, but the latest databook reaffirms the info that Gin's bankai does travel at the speed that he told Ichigo to;

No Caption Provided

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LichVanAstrea

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#23  Edited By LichVanAstrea
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FaradaySloth

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Lightning speed doesn't exist in Bleach?

What the...

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LichVanAstrea

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@el_directo_: I recommend you do. I will delete mine in return.

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El_directo_

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the_alchemist01

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Woodward has some balls tbh.

Anyway TAEP and T4V that's if you're still doing the CaV.

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universeichigo1

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Lol TAEP and T4V

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LichVanAstrea

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Bumping this in case some miss out here.

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There is one fundamental issue here: The feats you posted for Gerard were only accomplished after he was getting beaten constantly by multiple people (the captains), and then The Miracle started to take effect. You can't use those feats for several reasons:

1). I'm pretty sure this matchup starts with Base Gerard.

2). Gerard is facing one person here, and this person uses magic that does not deal physical-based attack.

3). Those feats aren't part of Gerard's direct abilities, they're only achieved after certain time and beating. Similar to something like prep time. You can't use those like they're part of his direct showing, when they're not.

All that being said, a lot of the things you said wouldn't apply here, even though it honestly doesn't matter but I wanted to point that out.

@woodward said:

I don't see how that would negate the Miracle. The only thing that would do is reduce Gerard to an army of miniature versions of himself, which only proceed to dogpile on Gildarts. So there are two things that will happen here; either Gildarts get overwhelmed by the army and forces the magic to wear off or Gerard waits for it to wear off, as Gildarts stated it himself.

It would negate it for the fact Gerard isn't regenerating from it. Also, realize Crush is not a physical type damage, right? Meaning Gerard isn't getting any boost here. Once he turns into mini-version of himself, he gets ploughed pretty easily.

This is all nice, but I'm not seeing anything here that surpasses Gerard's destructive capabilities. I've shown that Gerard was destroying the battlefield around him constantly.

I think we can all agree that indirectly obliterating a mountain with one punch is far more impressive than busting blocks of skyscrapers. We're talking about multitude of million tons of rock getting flattened, and it was done indirectly considering Gildarts didn't even actually touch the mountain, the shockwave of his punch as result of hitting the monster is what did. And also, those Gerard's feats were after length of time of getting boosted by The Miracle, it's not his actual casual showing.

Again, nothing here suggests he surpasses Gerard. He was matching with Kenpachi, someone who destroyed a meteor that was going to destroy Seireitei, which has been caluclated to be the size of a large island (or small country if you want to stretch), so if anything, Gerard is way above Gildarts here.

Yeah no. The Seireitei was always in every single time depicted to be nothing but a large city and don't start about the gate day statement. And Gremmy's meteor was about 1/3 of it. Let's also not resort to fan calcs here. Whereas Irene's Deus Sema iis superior to Gremmy's meteor by virtue it's natural firstly (Gremmy's wasn't), and it has superior speed which ultimately gives it superior kinetic energy. And above all, it should be superior to Irene's base magic spells, which were reshaping a continent.

Destroying most of the city around him is only skyscraper level? Come on now.

I could have sworn the Seireitei wasn't destroyed. Only blocks of it were. And mountain busting is superior to city-busting, even though Gildart's other feats and his portrayal-standing put him above that.

Black holes in fiction tend to not be consistent with how black holes actually work in real life. If that black hole functioned exactly like one in real life, it would have instantly suck everything up, especially seeing how Bluenote claims its gravity is said to be infinite.

Even if you don't buy into the infinite statement, the black hole spell is substantially stronger than Bluenote's other gravity spells, which were restraining Natsu casually and even first chapter Natsu was displaying town-level physicals and in the Tower of Heaven Arc Natsu obliterated a skyscraper and several area of the island with his physicals. Those two feats were several arcs before Tenrou island arc, and we know it's typical for Shonen protagonist to get stronger with every arc. Either way, the black hole feat coupled with Gildarts's other feats of strength quantifiably put him above Gerard's showings.

Yes it does. I've proven this by showing Ichigo reacting and reflecting back lightning being struck down from the clouds. And if the statement from the databook you're referring to is from the first databook, you're gonna have to prove how that's hyperbolic, because nothing in Bleach has contradicted that statement.

I mean, it only happens in the last arc and by Ichigo, who I recall is not Gerard and latter doesn't scale to him in speed whatsoever. Whereas lightning speed was done in BOS FT by people, who are utter fodders to Gildarts.

Where was this proven false? Gin only lied to Aizen about it but we don't know what exact measurements he told to him in comparison to what he told him to Ichigo. Not only does Gin have no reason to lie to Ichigo about it, but the latest databook reaffirms the info that Gin's bankai does travel at the speed that he told Ichigo to;

Firstly, the image you posted isn't the databook.

Secondly, Gin flat out states his Zanpkuto doesn't move as fast as he originally said. That by default puts it below Mach 500, and what exact speed doesn't matter. That coupled with Gin's entire character as a snake and a liar.

-Lightning speed is only 58% of his Shikai, which we know is not Mach 500 because he admitted he lied about its speed.

>Gin has the fastest Zanpakuto among the captains.

-BOS pre-first time skip FT were both lightning and meteor speed.

>Only by EOS Natsu surpasses Gildarts, while other FT members are fodders to him. And Erza has minimum sub-relativistic feat of outspeeding Deus Sema, which traversed planets worth of distance in moments. This is coupled with consistent speed feats like fodder dragons traversed a continent in seconds, and only Acnologia and Igeenl surpass Gildarts in combat. And many more. So Gildarts is quantifiably much faster than Gerard.

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shirso

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Hmm, interesting.

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@woodward said:

1). I'm pretty sure this matchup starts with Base Gerard.

I never specified that in the OP. You're assuming this to be the case.

2). Gerard is facing one person here, and this person uses magic that does not deal physical-based attack.

Actually, it does. His only energy-based attack with Crush is All Crush. But everything else such as Crushing Evil, Spreading the Truth: Empyrean and Absolute Heaven are all physical-based attacks.

3). Those feats aren't part of Gerard's direct abilities, they're only achieved after certain time and beating. Similar to something like prep time. You can't use those like they're part of his direct showing, when they're not.

What are you talking about? Just because he pulled off those feats after evolving at a certain stage doesn't mean those feats can't be used. Again, I didn't restrict Gerard to his base form. As a matter of fact, if you were to take the versions depicted in the OP into consideration, the picture in the OP actually depicts him in his Quincy Vollständig form.

@lichvanastrea said:
@woodward said:

It would negate it for the fact Gerard isn't regenerating from it. Also, realize Crush is not a physical type damage, right? Meaning Gerard isn't getting any boost here. Once he turns into mini-version of himself, he gets ploughed pretty easily.

Again, Gildarts' only energy-based attack is All Crush and as long as the Miracle is activated, Gerard is regenerating from it. He regenerated from having his body being frozen from Toshiro's ice, which freezes all forms of matter and negates the functions of the frozen object, and had his body broken down by Byakuya. This isn't just regular physical damage, this is damage done to him at a molecular level.

But suppose that wasn't the case, how exactly is he gonna get ploughed? If a miniature army of Natsu overwhelmed and forced Gildarts to turn off the effects of his magic, he's certainly not going to blow through an army of Gerard with ease.

Either way, you know what's gonna happen if Gildarts attempts to kill him. The Miracle happens.

I think we can all agree that indirectly obliterating a mountain with one punch is far more impressive than busting blocks of skyscrapers. We're talking about multitude of million tons of rock getting flattened, and it was done indirectly considering Gildarts didn't even actually touch the mountain, the shockwave of his punch as result of hitting the monster is what did. And also, those Gerard's feats were after length of time of getting boosted by The Miracle, it's not his actual casual showing.

And yet you have Gerard who scales with Kenpachi, someone who destroyed a meteor that was going to destroy all of Seireitei. A far superior attack potency than busting some mountain.

Yeah no. The Seireitei was always in every single time depicted to be nothing but a large city and don't start about the gate day statement. And Gremmy's meteor was about 1/3 of it. Let's also not resort to fan calcs here. Whereas Irene's Deus Sema iis superior to Gremmy's meteor by virtue it's natural firstly (Gremmy's wasn't), and it has superior speed which ultimately gives it superior kinetic energy. And above all, it should be superior to Irene's base magic spells, which were reshaping a continent.

First off, the scan you used to show Irene's Deus Sama comes from the anime, even though I specifically stated we're using canon feats only here. Therefore, you should be using the manga version of that feat, which seems to not depict the same exaggerated shockwave that covers the atmosphere.

Second, what do you mean don't start with the gate day statement? They tell you that to establish how long it takes to go from one gate to the next, it's a 40 day round walk overall. I'm not gonna bring in fan calcs (at least not yet), but that should give you an idea of how big Seireitei actually is. It's certainly not just a large city.

I could have sworn the Seireitei wasn't destroyed. Only blocks of it were. And mountain busting is superior to city-busting, even though Gildart's other feats and his portrayal-standing put him above that.

That wasn't Seireitei he was destroying, that was one of the royal guards cities he was destroying and you can clearly see he destroyed a large portion of it with the whole area collapsing, not just some blocks of it. And considering how huge Gerard is and how he scales with Kenpachi, he can definitely bust more than that mountain Gildarts destroyed.

Even if you don't buy into the infinite statement, the black hole spell is substantially stronger than Bluenote's other gravity spells, which were restraining Natsu casually and even first chapter Natsu was displaying town-level physicals and in the Tower of Heaven Arc Natsu obliterated a skyscraper and several area of the island with his physicals. Those two feats were several arcs before Tenrou island arc, and we know it's typical for Shonen protagonist to get stronger with every arc. Either way, the black hole feat coupled with Gildarts's other feats of strength quantifiably put him above Gerard's showings.

Yeah, but none of those feats are above anything compared to what Gerard's done. Yeah, that black hole is a stronger move but it isn't quantifiable, no matter how you look at it. Your only quantifiable strength feats here are that mountain and battlefield busting.

I mean, it only happens in the last arc and by Ichigo, who I recall is not Gerard and latter doesn't scale to him in speed whatsoever. Whereas lightning speed was done in BOS FT by people, who are utter fodders to Gildarts.

It's still a lightning speed feat either way and you're ignoring the fact that characters like Byakuya and Kenpachi scale on par with Ichigo in terms of speed, who Gerard was keeping up with. Furthermore, he shouldn't be any slower than Candice, who Ichigo was making look like fodder.

If you're gonna throw scaling out of the window, I can go ahead and easily say Gildarts doesn't have any impressive speed feats whatsoever.

Firstly, the image you posted isn't the databook.

No, it's not. It's a post by a Reddit user who translated the databook.

Secondly, Gin flat out states his Zanpkuto doesn't move as fast as he originally said. That by default puts it below Mach 500, and what exact speed doesn't matter. That coupled with Gin's entire character as a snake and a liar.

And I told you that he only lied to Aizen regarding his Zanpakuto. You can't tell me he lied to Ichigo when one, we don't even know what he told to Aizen compared to he told to Ichigo and two, the databook reaffirms the fact that it travels at the speed he told Ichigo to. Saying otherwise is just denying official statements at this point.

-BOS pre-first time skip FT were both lightning and meteor speed.

>Only by EOS Natsu surpasses Gildarts, while other FT members are fodders to him. And Erza has minimum sub-relativistic feat of outspeeding Deus Sema, which traversed planets worth of distance in moments. This is coupled with consistent speed feats like fodder dragons traversed a continent in seconds, and only Acnologia and Igeenl surpass Gildarts in combat. And many more. So Gildarts is quantifiably much faster than Gerard.

So are you saying Gildarts is sub relativistic because he scales above Erza? If that's the case, then idk where or how you are getting sub relativistic speeds from that meteor. Everyone saw that meteor coming down and were able to converse before the thing could even reach to the ground. A meteor moving at that speed would fly past everyone's eyes and would hit the ground before someone could even say a word.

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#42 Sup3rn0va  Online

Shanks vs Gerard? Interesting