CAV: Genis Vell (CA1) VS Vegeta (P52)

Avatar image for pope052
#1 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

Although we've already started this debate elsewhere in a tournament, we have decided to realocate it to a regular CAV' for the sake of time related convenience and the fact that it's more organized. If for any reason you'd like to see how the original tourney went down (although not much progress has been made in fairness), it can be followed up should it progressively continue and read here.

'The Cosmic Warrior, Insane Genis Vell'

Represented By - cosmicallyaware1;

No Caption Provided

'The Prince of All Saiyans, Vegeta'

Represented By - Pope052:

No Caption Provided

Conditions

  • Standard 616 Genis Vell, Post BOTG Vegeta.
  • No other life is present on Mars, and it's also indestructible.
  • Starting Distance - 150/200 Meters Apart.
  • Both combatants are battling seriously and are highly motivated to win, but will remain in character.
  • No prep time or prior knowledge is going for either side.
  • BFR' and the like can be used as a temporary tactic, but not to actually win the fight.
  • Strict victories by Death or Knock Out only.

Battlefield Locale - Mars

For the sake of debate, we'll assume both characters can handle the environmental condtions.

No Caption Provided

'Challenge A Viner' Rules

This section is to be properly followed, as too many CAV's have been called off due to the following:

  • Don't start illegal arguments, give general opinions, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • It's much appreciated if there's no early judgments are made on the outcome of the battle, one should always wait and witness the debating quality and abilities of everyone involved before jumping to early conclusions.
  • Give at least one reason for a vote, and the scoring will be initially set to ten.
  • Regular posting/commenting/humor on the battle is fine, as long as it's in good taste.
  • As always, may the best man win!

Avatar image for realitywarper
#2 Posted by RealityWarper (12333 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me please

Avatar image for jacthripper
#3 Posted by Jacthripper (15017 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
Avatar image for pope052
#4 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 it's all ready mate, you can go ahead and copy/paste your first original opening post and character intro ;D

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#5 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@cosmicallyaware1 it's all ready mate, you can go ahead and copy/paste your first original opening post and character intro ;D

Absolutely, and the following argument as well?

here's this............

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you:

Genis-Vell: The Insane "Mad God"

No Caption Provided

Biography

Cloned from the DNA of the Kree warrior Mar-Vell, a.k.a Captain Marvel, Genis-Vell was implanted with false memories making him believe he was instead Starfox's son and artificially aged to protect him from Mar-Vell's enemies. Unable to handle the mantle, power and awareness of Captain Marvel, Genis succumbed to madness as he became nearly omnipotent and sought to "fix" the Universe. Tragically, he was killed to save the universe by a self-preserving Baron Zemo. He exhibited high end cosmic abilities putting him at herald level easily, and had fair showings across the board.

Originally, he is able to focus his cosmic awareness, granting him the ability to realize exactly what he needs to know at any particular time. When his powers expand, he is driven mad by the vastness of his cosmic awareness. While insane, he returns from the dead, raises Rick Jones from the dead, controls multiple other dead bodies, creates holograms, empowers an alien serial killer (Karl Coven) and is able to survive a combined assault from the Shiar, The Kree, and the Skrulls massive fleets.

After Baron Helmut Zemo accidentally links him to other sections of time (when he heals him), Genis-Vell absorbs the Nega-Bands and develops teleportation powers that could transport him through both time and space, the degree of his cosmic awareness had matured to a higher degree.

The Radioactive Man, has a theory that he could control the photons of which all things are composed, implying he has large scale reality altering powers

Powers and Abilities:

  • Cosmic Awareness: Genis has exhibited a very strong Cosmic Awareness sense (not quite an Surfer's level with Sensory Perception though...believe it differs as Genis's was not granted by Galactus), and it actually was too much of an overload and drove him "insane". Genis utilized the Cosmic Awareness with varied versatility, even imparting it onto others for brief moments
  • Energy Manipulation/Output:Genis is a high energy Energy projection user, with very potent blasting power. He also used his Energy manipulation capabilities to create shields, matter re-arrangement (although different from Surfer's applications once again)
  • Energy Absorbing
  • Flight / Super Speed
  • Hightened Strength and Durability levels
  • Time Manipulation and Travel

and that should about cover it for me.

@pope052: let's go.

The Battle begins!

Vegeta sees the Mad God, and bull rushes towards him. As Vegeta typically begins a fight with physical confrontation. However the first thing to point out here is Genis's Cosmic Awareness. He already is very aware of The Saiyan's capabilities, and knowledgeable on the Saiyan race in general. At the opening of the battle he opened his perceptions, and specifically honed his focus on his opponents. He has demonstrated this in the past. All that info tends to make him a bit.......unstable mentally.

No Caption Provided

Dealing with Vegeta's Physical Offensive!

Now it's significant to point out here that as vast as Vegeta's physical capabilities are, Genis will be able to keep pace and persevere. Genis although not specifically known for his strength and durability, has significant levels in that realm. He was able to easily keep pace physically with Sentry and King Hyperion respectively (New Thunderbolts arc, issues 13 and 16), so I don't see it being a huge issue dealing with Vegeta's initial physical onslaught.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

As far as some background on Sentry and King Hyperion:

Sentry: especially in his "sane/stabilized mode" he was am upper echelon character in regards to speed, strength, and durability and was easily in the 100 tonner range. Can go into feats and deeper detail later on for comparison levels.

King Hyperion: in his exiles incarnation was shown to be physically unparalleled, and on panel killed a Hulk with his eyebeams. He stated to have killed all powerful versions of his reality's heaviest hitters and held a lifeless Thor in his hands. Since he was brought into the 616 Marvel he seemed a bit depowered, and had a good fight fight with Blue Marvel but fell to him. He was shown as a bit of a jobber in the thunderbolts and had an interesting tussle with a depowered Juggernaut.

So I think it's safe to say that Genis will be able to keep pace with Vegeta.

Now as the battle progressed Vegeta will launch into Energy projection blasting and ranged explosive attacks as he typically does after a physical altercation.

That is where Genis will have no issues do to multipe tactics to handle the situation.

Dealing with Vegeta's Energy Output Offense!

There are multiple ways that Genis will deal with Energy projections, and let me illustrate the ways.

1) Shields.

Genis has the ability to create shields of Photonic Energy which are very respectable in their own right which he employs on a regular basis.

No Caption Provided

2) Teleportation.

either teleporting the blasts away from him, teleporting Vegeta, or teleporting himself, it doesn't matter....

No Caption Provided

3) Energy Absorbing

Genis can just simply absorb the energy or siphon it off and disperse it....

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Genis's turn!!!!

Ah. Up until now, it has been discussed what Genis will do to diffuse Vegeta's attacks. Now it shall by Genis's turn to go on the offense. But I will wait till next post to do so. I will allow you to reply to these points first.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for asmodeus12345
#6 Edited by Asmodeus12345 (801 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for pope052
#7 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: A'ight, here's my brief character intro and opening counter response which'll followed by your second post ;P

'The Prince of all Saiyans, Vegeta!'

No Caption Provided

Being the first born of the original King Vegeta, the prince hails from the unique species known as the Saiyans and stands as one of the most powerful as well as skilled warriors (only later to be eventually surpassed by Goku in both ways) of the elite rank. After being fed lies about the fate of Planet Vegeta by the notorious tyrant Frieza, Vegeta, alongside his two Saiyan companions, worked for the Planet Trade Organization - who's objective is to wipe out planetary populations so the individual planets are eligible to be sold. May sound like a hefty task, but was ultimately all but too easy for Vegeta even at his negligible stage of power during that time period. Throughout the course of the series, Vegeta's power achieved remarkable standards and he also became vastly more experienced, noble, skillful, calculative, honorable, and through great efforts, a pure hearted Saiyan who catered for his family.

Vegeta's abilities in combat were also vastly improved due to exploring the many simple and/or methodical variations of competently doing battle. So it's very needless to say, but you're in for one hell of a surprise if you judge this particular book (or should I say, Saiyan) by it's cover.

With confident vocabulary and a stack of laid out information and feats to gauge Genis' level of power, you've proven how this debate certainly won't be immediately decisive or any easy break for Vegeta i'll admit right off the bat. Nevertheless, I don't believe that Genis ultimately has what it'll take to fell the prideful Saiyan Prince at the end of the day. Of course, in order to determine who's the actual superior of the two it'll boil down to who has the greater, more meaningful and all-round advantages overall - and in which case, i'm firmly supporting Vegeta to eventually pull this one off.

So let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the sight of cosmic blood being spilled by one of the most powerful and pure blood Saiyans to date ;P

No Caption Provided

First of all, Genis' cosmic awareness sounds like quite an obstacle for Vegeta to overcome. However, the severity of it will depend on it's usefulness to Genis in the midst of combat and the variety of options he has in terms of properly utilizing it against his opponents. The fact that he becomes mentally unstable if he uses it heavily will give Vegeta many opportunities to capitalize on any intellect/metality advantage and using the fluidity of his skills to their fullest. Vegeta himself possesses the ability to sense movement energies to a vast extent, and as i'm sure you're aware this is called 'Ki Sensing'.

No Caption Provided

The way it's used by the Z Fighters is by picking up on the slightest atmospheric shifts in order to predict movements of power, and ever since the day it was firstly introduced by Popo it has been used and explored by many characters including Vegeta. I'd consider this an edge that Vegeta has over Genis' cosmic awareness, and the reason being is because it doesn't affect him in the slightest unlike how the cosmic awareness hinders Genis's mental stability.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but so far I see Vegeta's degree of sensory operating better due to it's applicability to battle and lack of handicap.

Now it's significant to point out here that as vast as Vegeta's physical capabilities are, Genis will be able to keep pace and persevere. Genis although not specifically known for his strength and durability, has significant levels in that realm. He was able to easily keep pace physically with Sentry and King Hyperion respectively (New Thunderbolts arc, issues 13 and 16), so I don't see it being a huge issue dealing with Vegeta's initial physical onslaught.

I can widely agree that Genis outmatches Vegeta on a purely strength basis, but the Prince doesn't roll that way. Instead, Vegeta for the most part prefers to focus on applying his striking power upon his foes and concentrating his hits towards their weak/pressure points as much as possible.

It's a far more effective and adept form of physically engaging his opponents rather than relying on sheer muscle force to overpower them. How hard Vegeta can punch and/or kick in general is one thing to take into consideration, but Vegeta is also consistent in applying method, techinque, countering, and brutality expertly into his own martial arts fighting style against decently to incredibly skilled warriors (examples are Yajirobe, Zarbon, Jeice, and more):

  • Lunges straight into the vulnerable spot in Reccome's chest and continuously applies damage to there.
  • After improving his stats by a good margin, Vegeta could now easily catch Zarbon's strikes.
  • Despite being more powerful in general, it's heavily implied that Vegeta's skill was close enough if not equal to Goku's when they first fought.
  • Outmaneuvers Dodoria by putting his arms into a brutal grapple.
  • Swiftly renders Trunks and Goten unconscious by striking their bodily pressure points.
  • Parries a numerous amount of transformed Zarbon's attacks with ease and plunges a hole through his chest.
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

It's not that hand to hand skill is the main factor either, as how martial arts is defined in Dragon Ball is tailored into their ability to manipulate their Ki to such a point where they're able to expel various forms of energy from their bodies all but casually. The Kamehameha for example, is a very complex technique that required the martial arts master Roshi, over fifty years to properly understand and utilize in battle. Even then it was mandatory for him to increase his body's power mass for his Kamehameha to achieve full power, where as Goku was able to replicate it flawlessly simply after seeing it being done once. Considering how we've seen how Vegeta was on equal terms with Goku in the energy projection department, the Prince's level of martial arts is almost unparalleled.

Even if we break it down to Vegeta's showings of pure hand to hand combat, i'd still like to think that i've covered his superiority in that scenario compared to Genis' primal use of physical strength alone. In either case, I see no reason why Vegeta should be very well capable of predicting and parrying most if not all of Genis' physically based attacks as well as generally superseding him wholly as a skilled, diverse, and overly efficient fighter. But regardless of Vegeta's up close and personal advantage, he'll still need to be able to harm Genis in the first place, right?

Luckily for the Prince, he's packing the striking power to put a definitive dent in Genis' blunt durability to say the least:

To get an accurate measuring for Vegeta's pure punching and kicking power, the best way to do so is by turning to one of the series earliest characters who of which is General Blue of the Red Ribbon Army. At first glance Blue doesn't seem particularly powerful or impressive, but it's his substantial feats that can easily speak otherwise. Easily his best durability showing is during his encounter with Arale, to which her strength absolutely catches him off guard, and the result was Blue getting plummeted with a significant amount of force which sent him from Japan all the way to Egypt:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

According to Google, the distance is 9,679 kilometers and Blue was able to endure such a blow with only relatively minor injuries. Furthermore, he crashed his aircraft directly point blank whilst in the midst of air combat with Goku yet Blue still emerged from the debris practically unscathed.

No Caption Provided

I think at this point you'll get the picture as to how durable Blue is, so how exactly is this relevant to Vegeta's striking power at all you ask? Well, we'll get to that soon enough. So after recovering from his injuries and after traveling back to the Red Ribbon headquarters, Blue is greeted by a profoundly competent assassin who goes by the name, Taopaipai. At first, Commander Red and Mr. Black are skeptical about whether or not Taopaipai's capabilities actually live up to the rumours although not too long after killing General Blue with his tongue, their initial lack of confidence absolutely skyrockets.

No Caption Provided

Needless to say, Taopaipai's effortless hits are clearly much harder than Arale's. Even when Kid Goku faced Taopaipai for the first time he was down after a good two or three hits at most. However, being the Saiyan that Goku is, he further strengthened up his abilities by drinking Korin's Sacred Water in order to become vastly more powerful than before, and the gap between the two was so big that Taopaipai's actual punches were laughable to Goku.

No Caption Provided

And finally when we skip ahead to the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta's blows were wrecking Goku to the point where he was very much forced to go straight up to a Kaioken times three. I can't even begin to describe how petty Kid Goku is in comparison to himself as of the Saiyan Saga, at that point of power he wouldn't even bother acknowledging Taopaipai's strikes, so this is a very credible testimony to Saiyan Saga Vegeta's basic standards:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

And when Vegeta eventually transformed into a Saiyan Oozaru Ape, Goku could hardly stand up after receiving Vegeta's hits.

No Caption Provided

All of the above aren't even in the same dimension as Vegeta at his peak power, so bringing Genis both large amounts of pain and additionally to his weaker body spots will surely bring him down by great deals. This is whilst Vegeta can parry practically all and every move Genis can make physically due to Vegeta being able to essentially predict his movements before they happen, parry them accordingly, and conclusively outmatch him in this aspect of battle.

Genis has the ability to create shields of Photonic Energy which are very respectable in their own right which he employs on a regular basis.

They could maybe help against Vegeta's volley blasts, but are they capable of fending off easy planet busting levels of blast power?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

I don't see why that feat could be labelled as false, since he was literally shaking the Earth merely by powering up and Goku's ability to sense energies allows him to determine and confirm that Vegeta's Galick Gun was indeed able to reduce earth-sized planets to nothingness. Since he was topping planetary levels at his least powerful stage of the manga, it says a lot as Vegeta only vastly improves consistent to how the series progresses.

No Caption Provided

The speed of Vegeta's blasts are also fast enough to have Goku barely avoid them and they can escape the atmosphere in seconds.

No Caption Provided

Genis better be able to react to Vegeta's blasts in the first place if he means to activate his shields, but even in that event i'd say he should have difficulty in holding them up against the like of power that the Prince could toss out at his most unimpressive stage of power throughout the entire course of the series as a whole. Now, I concede to the fact that Vegeta has no legitimate counter for getting teleported away and/or having his blasts absorbed, but I will contest that he'll be able to completely outpace Genis to the extent where he is utterly incapable of reacting or utilizing these techniques to begin with.

I'll address Vegeta's speed as well as many other things in my next post, but for now this should probably be sufficient in saying that Vegeta's prowess in the skillful and sensory aspects should permit him to best Genis in the physical scenario without a lot of trouble, as well as his raw energy power possessing both the speed and strength to give Genis and his shields a run for their money. So anyway, the ball is in your court now, and I deeply Iook forward to your reply!

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#8 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: ok my friend, very well done. Fantastic, this will be worthwhile after all!

It's time to visit Counter Town!

first off:

With confident vocabulary and a stack of laid out information and feats to gauge Genis' level of power, you've proven how this debate certainly won't be immediately decisive or any easy break for Vegeta i'll admit right off the bat

well thank you good sir. I'll admit in return that I am well aware that you are equally verbose and articulate so this will be quite the interesting altercation.

Nevertheless, I don't believe that Genis ultimately has what it'll take to fell the prideful Saiyan Prince at the end of the day. Of course, in order to determine who's the actual superior of the two it'll boil down to who has the greater, more meaningful and all-round advantages overall - and in which case, i'm firmly supporting Vegeta to eventually pull this one off

Fair enough, I can respect that. And in my case, I will do the same. Shall be a glorious battle indeed. Though I may warn you......Vegeta will probably fall short, just like he has in the majority of other battles he's fought (ouch! sick burn) (and a little man joke. double whammy lol)

The Details....

No Caption Provided

Now you have presented a vast array of Vegeta's capabilities. And have gone into fair detail of some of Vegeta's fights and the such. Thank you! I see that you have yet to go into the higher levels of SSJ, and are using lower tier status. Interesting, yet I completely see where you are going. you are building the case, and starting at the beginning......which makes complete sense considering DBZ characters. As they grow exponentially in power and abilities.

First of all, Genis' cosmic awareness sounds like quite an obstacle for Vegeta to overcome. However, the severity of it will depend on it's usefulness to Genis in the midst of combat and the variety of options he has in terms of properly utilizing it against his opponents. The fact that he becomes mentally unstable if he uses it heavily will give Vegeta many opportunities to capitalize on any intellect/metality advantage and using the fluidity of his skills to their fullest. Vegeta himself possesses the ability to sense movement energies to a vast extent, and as i'm sure you're aware this is called 'Ki Sensing'.

ahhhh, the cosmic awareness. It can be quite the complicated thing really and a bit "finiky" honestly. it depends on the user, here is a bit of info

This awareness granted him a sort of omnipresent consciousness that enables him to perceive objects, individuals, and cosmic threats or anything of significance to him anywhere, even if they were cloaked by invisibility or illusion.

However, Genis’s newfound cosmic awareness initially proved unreliable, sometimes feeding him distorted or illusory information. Despite a series of meditative techniques, his cosmic awareness drove him insane, although he thus exhibited greater use of this power, using it to see possible futures, definite futures, and alternate universes, and to project his cosmic awareness into others so that they can see their past, present, or future. He had also used it to communicate with the dead.

so it's not like "spidey sense", and operates differently than say Silver Surfer's usage. What it CAN do for Genis though, and in this case, is provide him insight on the Saiyan race. That intimate knowledge will give him a "heads up" basically on Vegeta's capabilities and know what to expect. In that case he will be prepared for the types of attacks that Vegeta will be coming at him with...

It's not that fact if he overtly uses it too much it makes him "insane", it's the fact that at one point......since he had been enlightened to so much in the universe it overloaded his moral compass so to speak. The data from the universe skewed his perceptions on right and wrong, and he became an aloof "judge/jury/executioner" in a sense. He acted on his own mis-guided whims and made him even more dangerous as he was not holding back any of his substantial power levels. That is.....sadly....what you have to face here.

The way it's used by the Z Fighters is by picking up on the slightest atmospheric shifts in order to predict movements of power, and ever since the day it was firstly introduced by Popo it has been used and explored by many characters including Vegeta. I'd consider this an edge that Vegeta has over Genis' cosmic awareness, and the reason being is because it doesn't affect him in the slightest unlike how the cosmic awareness hinders Genis's mental stability

I wouldn't go as far to say that it hindered Genis in regards to mental stability............it made him exponentially more powerful and ruthless. If you consider that a hindrance then so be it. Against a ruthless and bloodthirsty opponent like Vegeta....I would say that it is a bonus. So I would conclude that the edge here goes to Genis after all.

No Caption Provided

Correct me if i'm wrong, but so far I see Vegeta's degree of sensory operating better due to it's applicability to battle and lack of handicap.

As far as an application to battle, I will say that Vegeta's is more attuned to body movements and power level shifts. Yet I fail to see how much it will honestly help him. It will just be another one of those times when he realizes he is hopelessly outclassed. And let it be clear: Genis does not suffer a handicap at all.

No Caption Provided

Physical Comparison Analysis

Now this is an interesting one. As Genis is not predominantly known as a "physical powerhouse", he is no slouch in the department. Wheres on the other hand, Vegeta (and other Saiyans) are specifically known for their physical prowess and fighting skills.

I can widely agree that Genis outmatches Vegeta on a purely strength basis, but the Prince doesn't roll that way. Instead, Vegeta for the most part prefers to focus on applying his striking power upon his foes and concentrating his hits towards their weak/pressure points as much as possible

That could be a plausible concern on my part, however I am not really too worried. Genis has tanked hits and sustained blows from some serious heavy hitters without any substantial injury including the Hulk (and an angry one at that) and Drax the Destroyer with the Power Gem to name a couple.

No Caption Provided

He even has been hit with a blow from Mjolnir throw by Thor when he was in possession of the Odin Force (King Thor incarnation) and immediately was back in action and able to retaliate offensively.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

so I feel that these few examples (of many) should suffice for the time being on that subject matter.

It's not that hand to hand skill is the main factor either, as how martial arts is defined in Dragon Ball is tailored into their ability to manipulate their Ki to such a point where they're able to expel various forms of energy from their bodies all but casually. The Kamehameha for example, is a very complex technique that required the martial arts master Roshi, over fifty years to properly understand and utilize in battle. Even then it was mandatory for him to increase his body's power mass for his Kamehameha to achieve full power, where as Goku was able to replicate it flawlessly simply after seeing it being done once. Considering how we've seen how Vegeta was on equal terms with Goku in the energy projection department, the Prince's level of martial arts is almost unparalleled.

Even if we break it down to Vegeta's showings of pure hand to hand combat, i'd still like to think that i've covered his superiority in that scenario compared to Genis' primal use of physical strength alone. In either case, I see no reason why Vegeta should be very well capable of predicting and parrying most if not all of Genis' physically based attacks as well as generally superseding him wholly as a skilled, diverse, and overly efficient fighter. But regardless of Vegeta's up close and personal advantage, he'll still need to be able to harm Genis in the first place, right?

Basically the point I want to make here is that it's irrelevant. Genis has not been shown to be put down by purely physical means of any kind, regardless on striking power, especially empowered in his "mad god state". A physical altercation of any kind will only delay the inevitable for Vegeta here and Genis may do so just to toy with him. Really if Genis gets his hands on Vegeta I really can see him doing something drastic....such as breaking Vegeta's neck which he has done in the past such as in the case of Burstaar (Blaastar's son from the Negative Zone) who is on par with an individual like Mongul physically.

No Caption Provided

so bringing Genis both large amounts of pain and additionally to his weaker body spots will surely bring him down by great deals. This is whilst Vegeta can parry practically all and every move Genis can make physically due to Vegeta being able to essentially predict his movements before they happen, parry them accordingly, and conclusively outmatch him in this aspect of battle.

I by no means am downplaying Vegeta's skill and striking power, as I acknowledge his abilities. As far as the predicting of his moves..........I highly refute that point. While I understand that is something he has done in the past, in the Z universe, I am not sure how well that will translate to someone of Genis's unique nature and power set. And even though that Vegeta can Ki sense, that still hasn't stopped him from being tagged from a myriad assortment of individuals.So I really don't see it helping his and extraordinary amount in this scenario.

Energy Projection Topic

first off let's discuss shielding.....

They could maybe help against Vegeta's volley blasts, but are they capable of fending off easy planet busting levels of blast power?

No Caption Provided

In all honesty not entirely sure. His shielding capacity has mostly been shown to fend off attacks of much lower levels, however I use this scan example again to demonstrate that a detonation of Atomic/Nuclear proportions (which could be considered planet busting in capacity) has been easily taken care of by Genis. So take that as you will.

Moving on from Shields I have some more realms to dive into on Genis's capabilities that I have been saving, but first....

Genis better be able to react to Vegeta's blasts in the first place if he means to activate his shields, but even in that event i'd say he should have difficulty in holding them up against the like of power that the Prince could toss out at his most unimpressive stage of power throughout the entire course of the series as a whole.

The real problem for here is that Genis is able to manipulate all forms of Energy. This may be a huge problem for Vegeta, as it may completely nullify Vegeta's blasting power!!!

No Caption Provided

I see this as a substantial barrier for Vegeta. Taking away one of his most powerful offensive tools will be crippling to the Saiyan Prince. It matters not how powerful the Saiyan may be. Now let's look at what can happen is Genis employs another offensive tactic in lieu of Energy Manipulation. He can completely negate the energy in Vegeta's body...and say manipulate the energy in a way to render him totally inert. Such as draining all the heat energy from his body, turning him to ice and shattering him with either a blow or a high energy blast.

No Caption Provided

which is a tactic that he has used previously, and I don't really know of any ways that Vegeta will be able to defend from.....

No Caption Provided

He manipulated the ambient energy and destroyed that poor little Skrull..............aww Saiyan Prince, you're toast.

I think it's safe to say here that Vegeta is in trouble. Let's let you mull that over and reply before I move into the next array that I have planned. Back over to you good sir!

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#9 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for pope052
#10 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: bumpity bump bro.....

Yeah man, sorry I still haven't gotten to finishing this yet but I've put a dent in it at least. It's just that I have a final two exams to study for tomorrow and I have quite a bit to do for the remainder of the night, but once tomorrow's over and done with i'll be all free for this.

So I 100% promise a response up by tomorrow man, you have my word ;)

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#11 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

@pope052: bumpity bump bro.....

Yeah man, sorry I still haven't gotten to finishing this yet but I've put a dent in it at least. It's just that I have a final two exams to study for tomorrow and I have quite a bit to do for the remainder of the night, but once tomorrow's over and done with i'll be all free for this.

So I 100% promise a response up by tomorrow man, you have my word ;)

Oh, okay. no worries honestly...take your time. I am in 12 matches and just signed on for like 3 more so....yeah........

Avatar image for pope052
#12 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Forgive me for taking this much time to get my counter up man, as it's due to the fact that I had exams as of the past few days and needed to decently study for them but thankfully I now have plenty of time to dedicate to this. So anyway, kudos to you as that was certainly what I would call an entertaining post it was quite an interesting read and made me very intrigued to respond to all of it. But right now, i'd say it's time to put aside all the sugar coating and get back to business, so by all means let's examine and rebut whatever I can from what you've said for Genis in utmost detail!

No Caption Provided

so it's not like "spidey sense", and operates differently than say Silver Surfer's usage. What it CAN do for Genis though, and in this case, is provide him insight on the Saiyan race. That intimate knowledge will give him a "heads up" basically on Vegeta's capabilities and know what to expect. In that case he will be prepared for the types of attacks that Vegeta will be coming at him with...

Sounds like an effective tactic in theory, but has Genis actually managed to study the background knowledge on his opponent whilst they were engaged with him into the very midst of combat before? I'd imagine that whenever Genis has projected his cosmic awareness over someone it was because he was able to do so efficiently by not having to focus on simultaneously fight them in the first place. Since a battle scenario is the only relevant one, i'd need anything that'd suggest Genis' cosmic awareness operates on such a level that he'll gain info on his foes prior to combating them before we can consider it a factor.

Even if he can, Vegeta's 'Ki Sense' is still more beneficial in regards to combat related scenarios as he'll be predicting what move Genis'll make next through their shifts in atmospheric/energy currents. This is the legitimate method that Mr. Popo taught to Goku about how to analyze his opponent's movements thus counter them accordingly when he was a kid, and as I've shown Vegeta later picked up on it as soon as he noticed Goku being able to do so.

No Caption Provided

As soon as he knew how to do it, Vegeta among the rest of the Z Fighters has constantly applied his sensory aspect to battle. The reason why he either gets consistently tagged and/or outpaced seemingly in pure combat speed by others is because they either possess this very degree of 'Ki Sensing' themselves (examples being Goku, Cell, and Android #18), or else it's simply due to those particular characters lacking the ability to sense yet they are on a vastly more superior power level than Vegeta to begin with. Since Genis is neither faster than nor able to sense akin to Vegeta, there's virtually no reason as to why he'd be capable of even remotely sparring with Vegeta physically in open combat who's extensively more skilled and can practically parry all of his attacks.

I wouldn't go as far to say that it hindered Genis in regards to mental stability............it made him exponentially more powerful and ruthless. If you consider that a hindrance then so be it. Against a ruthless and bloodthirsty opponent like Vegeta....I would say that it is a bonus.

Not if Genis doesn't have the slightest hope of matching Vegeta's well rounded set of attributes (such as his prowess that I've previously shown for him in the aspects such as purely advanced martial arts skill, technicality, tactics, method, battle experience, etc) that encompass him as a warrior. Vegeta may share a personality trait or two with Genis like ruthlessness and brutality, but the Prince executes those rougher aspects better at least tactically.

No Caption Provided

By realizing that Android #19 could draw out energy from his foes to add to his own by using his hands, Vegeta merely tore off his limbs. A similar feat of the usage of simple yet effiective tactics that Vegeta employed by bending Dodoria's arms to the point where if Dodoria had attempted to break free it would have resulted in essentially snapping his own arms. You see, it's these type of feats that make Vegeta's brutal personality more meaningful when applied to battle, and so despite the fact that Genis is insane it won't help him much against the similarly ruthless yet more adept combatant nonetheless.

If you're still not swayed that Vegeta is far too skilled for Genis to consistently if at all keep up with in battle (despite the previous showings of Vegeta's extent of hand to hand being sufficient to inflict as much damage to one's pressure points as possible, parry dozens of attacks at rapid speeds, basically if he didn't completely equal Goku's tier of martial arts skill, and employing simply yet brutal techniques), there's always more citations to further my point:

  • Escapes from Recoome's grasp by staggering him by blasting his excess energy into Recoome's face.
  • Shatters Jeice's armor, and then paralyzes him by applying lethal force into a mere karate chop which was also aimed at his weak spot.
  • Acknowledges how Krillin's Destructo Disk was no ordinary attack, and yells at Nappa to dodge it.
  • He later picks up on replicating the Destructo Disk with utmost ease and uses it to slice off Saiyan Oozaru Gohan's tail (a technique that should be very devastating against Genis since it practically ignores his opponent's durability on top of Vegeta's degree of raw blasting power).
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

I'll argue this till kingdom come, as I can't emphasize it enough. From what I can tell, Genis is no more than a brawler type warrior whenever he's engaged in a pure hand to hand physical scenario, and in the long run against a certainly physically competent warrior such as Vegeta it's a serious disadvantage. The Prince's broad battle and technique skill etiquette is solidly above Genis' in every sense of the word. What'll make matters even worse is when I begin to get into Vegeta's pure combat speed, because when that's added onto his demonstrated skill set, Genis' attacks will be wholly reduced to wasted efforts.

Yet I fail to see how much it will honestly help him. It will just be another one of those times when he realizes he is hopelessly outclassed.

I'd like to think I've made a reasonable case as to how Vegeta's 'Ki Sensing' will aid him significantly, so take it if you will. Anyway, Vegeta being 'hopelessly outclassed' is a giant overstatement based on what has been said up until now. Genis is arguably slightly more versatile, is physically stronger and has more durable in relation to handling mere blunt force trauma. Vegeta on the other hand is easily the far better fighter, is way more intelligent, has the raw power to give Genis large amounts of trouble, has fairly comparable effective versatility, and I have yet to exhibit his excelling combat speed.

So as I said before it's hardly a one sided fight on either case, but i'm still firmly confident that Vegeta's advantages will lead him to prevail eventually.

Genis has tanked hits and sustained blows from some serious heavy hitters without any substantial injury including the Hulk (and an angry one at that) and Drax the Destroyer with the Power Gem to name a couple. He even has been hit with a blow from Mjolnir throw by Thor when he was in possession of the Odin Force (King Thor incarnation) and immediately was back in action and able to retaliate offensively.

Basically the point I want to make here is that it's irrelevant. Genis has not been shown to be put down by purely physical means of any kind, regardless on striking power, especially empowered in his "mad god state".

All of which are very impressive feats, but despite the strength of them both neither the Hulk or Thor come close to being the methodical fighter that Vegeta consistently establishes himself as throughout multiple instances of battles as well as general acknowledgement from other characters. Goku and Piccolo are the ones namely who've noted on Vegeta's genius, which are considerable compliments when coming from two strategic braniacs themselves.

The point there being that although the Prince might not be able to strike with as much force as the Hulk or Thor can, he still brings his foes down by applying his yet respectable raw hitting power to their vulnerable pressure points and that's how he'll manage to get these solid blows in on Genis. So to say Genis is too physically durable to be harmed by Vegeta based off of tanking generally strong blows is understandable, but quite illogical nevertheless as Vegeta tends to focus on both hitting hard and where exactly he's going to place it - and for the majority of the time it ends up very similar to this:

No Caption Provided

And even though I concede to it being no simple task, the basis of Vegeta's striking power is firstly from how I had shown him harming Goku (with his tough durability feats that were provided from his childhood days) with ease when he was at an immeasurably more powerful stage than before. That's certainly at least on par with what characters like Hulk and Thor are capable of dishing out purely on average, and the fun also doesn't stop there either.

Super Vegeta's effortless hits were tossing around the substantially strong Semi-Perfect Cell around like a rag doll:

No Caption Provided

He has shattered henchmen-crafted battle armor, and taken Guldo's head clean off with a single swipe:

No Caption Provided

The mere shock wave generated from the collision of Goku and Vegeta's elbows obliterated an entire canyon into pieces:

No Caption Provided

And in the very same battle, Vegeta's striking was giving Goku mutual amounts of damage as it was to himself:

No Caption Provided

If you'd like me to, I can go into reasonable detail as to why Goku and the rest of the above are of comparable physical durability to Savage Hulk or regular Thor. So until you possibly may request for me to do so, I suppose you'll have to take my word for it now. Regardless, these feats are strong representations as to how strong Vegeta's strikes can get on a fairly regular basis and so he should be able to bring the pain to Genis when he applies this same tier of force in addition to aiming specifically and methodically for Genis' pressure points to achieve the maximal rate of damage within every punch or kick. Genis would need feats that show he can resist these type of physical attacks if you mean to say he won't be harmed by Vegeta's, and that's up to you to demonstrate.

After several of those babies to said body spots, Genis surely won't be able to operate as well as usual and just makes the fight that little bit easier.

A physical altercation of any kind will only delay the inevitable for Vegeta here and Genis may do so just to toy with him. Really if Genis gets his hands on Vegeta I really can see him doing something drastic....such as breaking Vegeta's neck which he has done in the past such as in the case of Burstaar (Blaastar's son from the Negative Zone) who is on par with an individual like Mongul physically.

This brings me to the case of Vegeta's speed, and by the looks of it Genis won't even be laying a finger on Vegeta let alone breaking his neck. Even as of the Saiyan Saga Vegeta was easily on the route of approaching the light speed range as was Goku, and by the time of the Frieza Saga the duo of Saiyans were topping such a speed standard if not going relatively well beyond it at their grade of power at that point. It may sound like a good bit of a stretch just by saying it although based on the context and comparison of the following feats from respective characters, it's a very reasonable gauge honestly:

For starters, Piccolo was able to fire an uncharged blast in the midst of desperation and in the near instant afterwards it directly hit the moon. Now, for the sake of equity we won't label it 'instantaneous speed' but instead it's more than fair enough to leave it at just one second. As for the beam to close such a vast distance to our moon from the point where Piccolo was at the time it'd be traveling at a speed of X1.49 FTL to be exact. I could provide the maths and explanation in my next post if you'd like, but 1.49 is the exact speed you'll get to two decimal places to my knowledge:

No Caption Provided

Later in the tactic struggle against Nappa, a slightly more powerful Piccolo's energy beam in a more hopeless situation was still too slow to tag Nappa. If it doesn't count as a light speed feat for whatever the reason, Nappa's speed is at a respectable fraction of that of light at least. I wouldn't see any reason as to why it'd be so false or unreliable though, he literally out sped the blast at point blank and we've seen how fast Piccolo's are when he was weaker:

No Caption Provided

Then when Nappa was first to encounter and battle Goku, he couldn't even perceive his movements properly yet Vegeta could:

No Caption Provided

And when Goku finall amplified his strength with a Kaioken times two, Vegeta was still much faster than Goku:

No Caption Provided

I have more in stock to provide further support to Vegeta's speed as well, so I figure this'll be sufficient for now and as I briefly noted on before this adds onto Vegeta's edges greatly in battle skill as well as the ability to determine Genis' movements before he makes them. So when you consider how slow beings like Thor and the Hulk are in comparison to Vegeta, then Genis has no essential basis to say he is anything but a frozen statue to the Prince.

In all honesty not entirely sure. His shielding capacity has mostly been shown to fend off attacks of much lower levels, however I use this scan example again to demonstrate that a detonation of Atomic/Nuclear proportions (which could be considered planet busting in capacity) has been easily taken care of by Genis. So take that as you will.Moving on from Shields I have some more realms to dive into on Genis's capabilities that I have been saving, but first....

I fail to see how the absolutely strongest Tsar Bomba could equate to planetary proportions at all, and if that's the best Genis has accomplished with the use of his shields then i'm compelled to suggest that even a Namek Saga Vegeta's mere volley blasts would utterly disable them with simplicity. Hell, Vegeta was able to output blasts from his breath as an Oozaru that were comparable if not directly equal to the radius of a nuclear/atomic bomb.

No Caption Provided

And before commencing battle with Goku he laughably projected a beam that incinerated Nappa once it touched him. A considerable feat, seeing as Nappa was able to handle what was Piccolo's single most powerful energy attack (which is at moon busting level if not anything above) he could produce at the time with only a rough grazing on his back, therefore even Vegeta's excess amount of power is still well above Genis' pay grade.

No Caption Provided

So by the looks of it, Genis' shields will by immediately bypassed by so much as Vegeta's infant energy blasts.

The real problem for here is that Genis is able to manipulate all forms of Energy.

This may be a huge problem for Vegeta, as it may completely nullify Vegeta's blasting power!!! I see this as a substantial barrier for Vegeta. Taking away one of his most powerful offensive tools will be crippling to the Saiyan Prince. It matters not how powerful the Saiyan may be.

By that logic, Vegeta should've been able to effectively manipulate Goku's Kamehameha by himself instead of countering it with the Galick Gun. Being able to manipulate energy isn't quite sufficient to label Genis immune to or capable of absorbing Vegeta's blasts unless they're substantially below him in terms of pure power. However, as the scans will tell you above, Vegeta seems to be operating on a safe level of power so his energy is capable of taking effect.

Even if i'm wrong and Genis can render Vegeta's blasting power redundant, he'd need to be able to react to what's being fired in the first place.

Now let's look at what can happen is Genis employs another offensive tactic in lieu of Energy Manipulation. He can completely negate the energy in Vegeta's body...and say manipulate the energy in a way to render him totally inert. Such as draining all the heat energy from his body, turning him to ice and shattering him with either a blow or a high energy blast. which is a tactic that he has used previously, and I don't really know of any ways that Vegeta will be able to defend from..... He manipulated the ambient energy and destroyed that poor little Skrull..............aww Saiyan Prince, you're toast.

Good thing Vegeta's bodily energy doesn't encompass heat, as it's all revolved around latent 'Ki Energy' over anything else. To which even if such an ability was capable of performing well on Vegeta, I have provided more than enough for the Prince to say that he's too skillful, quick, intelligent, methodical and of above all he's seemingly more powerful at least up until this point - so from what I can see, things aren't looking too great for Genis ;P

Ah, well finally I got it all finished and i'll again look forward to what else you'll say in your counter, your move Cosmically.

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#13 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#14 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: ah bro, you didn't take that long at all. Nicely done my man! Turnin up the heat huh? cool. I will work on a response, will get it up in the next couple days. I have soooo many responses that I have to do.....I got stop entering so many matches....but, the HOF will not elude me again!!! Gotta put work in!!!!

Avatar image for pope052
#15 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: ah bro, you didn't take that long at all. Nicely done my man! Turnin up the heat huh? cool. I will work on a response, will get it up in the next couple days. I have soooo many responses that I have to do.....I got stop entering so many matches....but, the HOF will not elude me again!!! Gotta put work in!!!!

I thank you good sir, and I am certain you'll respond with a great post yourself! Take all of the time you need to get a reply up, i'm not at all in a rush to get this done quickly especially since it's been such a fun and entertaining debate to take part in throughout :)

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#16 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: my man, I haven't forgotten. I got sidetracked with the holidays. Let me finish replies in 3 other threads, then this gets my full attention for reply. I'm building one, and it's fairly long, I just need to wrap it up. couple days or so.....

Avatar image for lvenger
#17 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio

Screw it, tag me for votes here too Cos. This is the second CAV of yours I'm bookmarking. Speaking of which, you have yet to respond to my inquiries in your own long limbo tournament.

Avatar image for micah007123
#18 Posted by micah007123 (10836 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes. I love to see a DBZ fan accurately use one of their warriors in a debate. You rock @pope052

Avatar image for pope052
#19 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

@pope052: my man, I haven't forgotten. I got sidetracked with the holidays. Let me finish replies in 3 other threads, then this gets my full attention for reply. I'm building one, and it's fairly long, I just need to wrap it up. couple days or so.....

Completely fine man, i'll patiently be awaiting your response :)

@micah said:

Tag me for votes. I love to see a DBZ fan accurately use one of their warriors in a debate. You rock @pope052

Well thank you very much good sir, and I most certainly will tag you and @lvenger for votes.

Avatar image for blade_r
#20 Posted by Blade_R (6470 posts) - - Show Bio

Please tag for votes. This has been really good so far, cant wait to read the rest!

Avatar image for johnfrank120
#21 Posted by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please, looks awesome so far.

Avatar image for terry2012
#22 Posted by terry2012 (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please, looks awesome so far.

This. And @pope052 Tag me in of your CAV please.

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#23 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: In all honesty i completely forgot about this my friend. I deeply apologize and with renewed focus and vigor will have the next installment up as soon as possible. My bad. You should have nudged me! This is too epic to let dwindle out, we will see this one through......don't forget, we need to put work in for the HOF. So this shall not be the only debate we get in before next inductions. I would like to see us participate in at least 4 matches between now and then!

@lvenger said:

Screw it, tag me for votes here too Cos. This is the second CAV of yours I'm bookmarking. Speaking of which, you have yet to respond to my inquiries in your own long limbo tournament.

good lord mate, I forgot about all that. Pm me and we'll get that done! You bookmarked two of my CaV's? Bloody hell am I honored! I better perform then..........

Avatar image for pope052
#24 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: No worries man, I forgot all about my CAV's as well since none of the other ones were active either. By all means, take your time to be comfortable with what you're posting and i'm busy enough outside of the vine so there's no hassle whatsoever :)

Avatar image for kingant27
#25 Posted by Kingant27 (16927 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting, this looks good.

Avatar image for frisky4
#26 Posted by Frisky4 (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for pope052
#27 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#29 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: will finally have that response up by the end of the night tonight my man.....almost done

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#30 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: alright my man, I apologize for the delay. Let's continue this shall we? Here is my projected outline for the upcoming posts. I will be back in to edit and add all the information, I just wanted to show you that I am actively back to working on this!

Round 3. Let's turn up the heat........

But right now, i'd say it's time to put aside all the sugar coating and get back to business,

well put, absolutely.

Rebuttals, Counters, and Disarmament....

Topic 1. Senses

Topic 2. Battle Skills // Combat abilities

Topic 3. Physical Statistics // part 1; Strength and Striking power

Topic 3. Physical Statistics // part 2; Speed

Topic 4. Energy: a discussion. // Projection, Manipulation, and Absorbing

Topic 5. Unique Attributes

Avatar image for monmouth
#31 Posted by Monmouth (207 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#32 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't under stand how Cosmicallyaware uses feats from literally every version of Genis except Insane/Mad God...

Not to mention why he'd bring such low end feats to this debate.

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#33 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: hush you. I've yet to really begin this debate, it got...pushed off. I've been away for a few years lol

Avatar image for tjd2814
#34 Posted by TJD2814 (521 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: I just discovered this and I'm hooked lol can't wait for further continuation

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#35 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Hehe...

Since your using composite Genis were are you capping the feats off?