Alright before you saying anything. This is saiyan saga Piccolo against Monster Garou. I felt this was a pretty close battle though I may be going into this match as the underdog. However lopsided cavs have become a trend off late so this shouldn't be too bad. Me and God_Vulcan had another cav but we agreed that that one wasn't too fair and so we canceled that to do this.
Rules
Saiyan Saga Piccolo post 1 year training.
Monster Garou from the manga and Webcomic.
Both combatants are in character but willing to kill.
Fight to the death
No prior knowledge,
No prep
Standard gear
Battle takes place on an indestructible plane the size of of Jupiter
Combatants start a mile away from each other.
Voters:
Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won.
Tag me so I can read each response. I won't vote but I wanna see the debate. God_Vulcan(even though I'm gonna hate typing this) put up a very good first post imo.
Piccolo is the son of King Piccolo. Piccolo was born as his father was about to die, who shot his egg far away as he died. Piccolo would return to avenge his father. Where he would participate in the world martial arts tournament. He was eventually defeated by Goku but left alive. He would eventually team up against Goku against Raditz and help defeat him. Piccolo then mentored Goku's son Gohan and fought the other saiyans together. Piccolo would go on to become a major member of Z figthers and one of the greatest heroes and warriors of Universe 7.
Powers and abilities
Piccolo's power, like every other character in DBZ comes from his ki energy. He can use it to amplify his own abilities or use to as blasts. On top of that Piccolo being a namkeian as a unique physiology.
List of his abilities:
Super Strength
Super Speed
Super Durability
Super Senses
Flight
Telepathy
Telekinesis
Regeneration
Elasticity
Size enhancement
Ki Manipulation
Genius in battle.
Expert Martial artist.
Speed
All right speed is going to be a major factor in this fight. And Piccolo is comparable in this regard. This will be a little long because I will need to establish the speed of inferior to characters so that you can have a better understanding of just how fast Piccolo by the time his saga comes along.
Garou has some bullet timing feats. And while Piccolo himself doesn't characters weaker than him do. For example Master Roshi. He was able to catch all the bullets fired out of a machine gun. This is more impressive than just dodging them since he was able to move just his hands as such a speed.
Now on to more combat speed showing. Here is a fight between Krillin and Roshi that happened in a fraction of a second. Faster than anyone could see. They were able to fight, think of plan and play rock paper scissors faster than anyone could see in the entire audience bar Goku. This all happened in less that a second as you can see it only took them 0.2 seconds to come with a plan while standing still and then they executed
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No this should establish that both Roshi and Krillin posses the ability to think and react in a fraction of a second. Especially if they can come with an entire plan in just 0.2 seconds. Now this important to note because Krillin in the following tournament got even faster than before. However despite this during his fight with Kid Goku, Krillin couldn't see or react to him. To the point where Goku could hit him 8 times. It's also worth nothing that not even Roshi could see Goku's movements when he did this. Goku was literally just moving side to side so fast that he became invisible to most. Not even leaving a single trace.
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As you can see in the scans the only person capable of seeing what Goku was doing is Tien. Tien and Goku were pretty evenly matched in terms of speed at that point. Both are capable of making after images, Goku especially can make several after images at a time.
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The afterimage technique is also impressive Because Goku was able to use it against Korin and move too fast for even Korin to see. Though in their one instance Korin was able to catch him after that. The fact that he was too fast for Korin's eyes for bit is impressive mainly because Korin's eyes can see everything in the globe. Even when his tower. An ability that Kami posses as well which will be important later.
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Later in that fight Tien used his Solar Flare against Goku. However as he was doing it, Goku moved fast enough to take master Roshis glasses and come back before anyone could realize and see. This is enough evidence that was Goku was to fast for even those who are already FTE to see and keep up with.
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Now onto Goku's fight with King Piccolo. Piccolo is superior to his father in pretty much every way you can think off. And king Piccolo even when he was old was faster than this version of Goku. Goku would later drink the special water that increased his stats and allowed him take on a younger King Piccolo evenly.
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Now soon after. Goku would train with Kami and Popo. There Goku was though to strike faster lightening. We first Pop doing it. Moving too fast for for even Goku to see despite having gotten an amp recently. Goku would later learn how to do this himself.
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Soon the 23 Budokai and we see how powerful Piccolo. An impressive speed feat we get early on is during his fight with Kirllin. Here Piccolo was able to dodge a Kamaehame being fired at him at point blank range from Krillin. Who is far stronger than when he performed the first feat I showed.
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Krillin was one of the few people who were actually fast enough to see what was going on between Goku and Tien. The fact that he was able to see their movements should show how much faster he has become. However it is worth nothing that Goku was were weights during this was keeping up with Tien who was a lot faster than before.
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Now unlike Tien, Piccolo was able to keep up with Goku even without his weights. Goku had become to fast for even massively hypersonic to see. However Piccolo was fast enough to not only see Goku but hit him whilst Goku was blitzing around.
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In fact once he and Goku began fighting at full speed not even Kami was able to see them. Kami is the first god of DBZ unvierse who is able to watch everything that is going on Earth while o top of his tower meaning his God Eyes are far superior to regular ones. Not mention Kami on his own is faster than the likes of Tien, Krillin etc. However just like the others around him he was unable to track their movements.
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Durability
Piccolo has pretty good durability. Both to physical attacks as well as energy attacks. Now Garou is a physical fighter so I won't show any of Piccolo's durability to energy attacks and just stick to his physical durability.
Piccolo was able to no sell an attack from Krillin. He was still holding back most of his power during the fight yet Krillin's attack did nothing him.
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Krillin as a kid was able to punch people hard enough to send them flying away. He manage to once punch one of his old bullies straight through a wall and into the distance. While against Roshi he was able to punch hard enough to send him out of the entire stadium and into the city with a kick.
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Piccolo would later fight Kami inside a human's body. During their fight Kami kicked him hard enough to send him underground and Piccolo just came back up from another side of the ring with no damage received at all.
During his fight Goku he tanked several of his attacks. Both physical and energy based. He no sold almost all of them and at the very least survived the rest.
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Towards the end he took a beat down from Goku despite having almost no ki left. Piccolo also took a full power ki attack after this but was still able to get back up and take down goku. Mind you this was also after the various ki blasts and attack he took prior to this like a superkamehameha from Goku. Piccolo's durability as well as his endurance is above most others and part of that of is due to his namek physiology
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Now on the topic of Namek Physiology Piccolo also posses regen. Now we find out during the Buu Saga when his statue is broken into several piecices by Trunks that Piccolo can regenarate from anything as long as his head is intact. And yes I know I'm only using Saiyan saga Piccolo but that just affect his power. His regen doesn't change considering it is a trait of his species and not a power level thing.
Now I showed a feat of him tanking Goku's punches. Now this a little more impressive when taking into account what Goku has been able to do. As a kid Goku was able casually rbing down choppers. Here is an example of him taking down two of them. One with a kick and another with his pole.
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Goku as a kid was also able to shatter a large boulder with a simple punch.
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Energy manipulation
Piccolo's energy manipulation is the biggest advantage he posses in this fight and it really is something his opponent doesn't have much of an answer to. His father who was weaker than him could casually fire city busting attacks. The gpa between him and his father is pretty big so he should have no problem firing nuke level blasts with the wave of his hand.
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Piccolo himself has some powerful destruction feats. Back during this fight with Goku he fired a blast capable of destroying mountains. The explosion itself created a mushroom cloud that dwarfed several mountains around it. And he also did this pretty easily.
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Later in that fight Piccolo would use a far more powerful attack. Now Piccolo was a lot weaker than before having expended his energy on various attacks against Goku. However despite this Piccolo was still able to fire a large AOE blast that was island level in terms of destruction. At full power he should be able to fire them pretty causally especially considering what he has been capable of after this.
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Finally Piccolo's best DC feat is him busting a moon when Gohan turned great ape. Piccolo fires a blast at it and completely vaporizes the moon almost instantly. He did this early on in his training and prior to getting upgrade after the 1 year of training he did with Gohan. This attack winded him a little but he only needs to use it once in this fight.
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Now aside from just raw power, Piccolo's is able to manipulate his ki in a couple of of ways. One example is that he is able to control the movement of his blast even after it is fired. He was able to do this against Goku were he controlled his blast to make it follow him. Goku managed to trick Piccolo into hitting himself. But Piccolo has gotten smarter since then and I doubt he would fall for it a second time.
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Piccolo is also able to fire blasts out his eyes and mouth. Those blasts are just as potent and deadly. especially his mouth blast which he used to completely incinerate a Saibaman.
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Strength
Piccolo's strength feats are fairly limited and mostly require scaling. He should be capable of replicating all of the feats I showed for Goku in the durability section.
However to start of. Piccolo is clearly superhuman in strength. He is able to one shot trained marital artists with just a finger flick. this was seen during the preliminaries of the 23rd Budokai.
Piccolo's father king Piccolo. Was able to to punch right through people with his striking strength. And it wasn't just any odd person either it was the military leader at the time who was confident on beating a guy who was impervious to bullets.
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King Piccolo was also able to strike down Kid Goku and create a large crater as a result. Goku wasn't hurt all to much as he was able to get back up and fire a kamehameha at King Piccolo.
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Piccolo was able take down Krillin with powerful strike in the air. Krillin was unable to stand still after the attack and had to give up the fight because of it.
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Piccolo was constantly matching Goku during the course of their fight in terms of physicals. Even doing harm to him with his physical strikes. In both his giant form and in his regular sized form. Here is just example of him doing this.
Piccolo was also harming Goku in his giant form. enough damage to keep down for bit and make Tien feel the need to step in to help Goku.
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He was also capable of breaking Goku's bones whilst pretty much completely drained of energy. Goku was several weakened as well however he hadn't wasted has much power as Piccolo had due Piccolo firing a Island level attack just before.
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It's also worth noting that Piccolo can amp his strikes by surrounding his fists with Ki. He did this against Krillin during their fight. Krillin did manage to survive the attack however Piccolo was still holding back during their fight.
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Other abilities
Piccolo's also posses several other abilities due being a Namekian. I have already shown that one of these abilities include regeneration.
Aside from that Piccolo can stretch his body. We first see him use this against Krillin where he stretched his arm to grab Krillin and bring him towards Piccolo
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Piccolo can use this for every body part. Against Goku made himself gigantic. He became huge and I should point out that according to Roshi that despite this his speed remained the same as before. His strength however had increased quite a bit.
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Piccolo also possess low level telepathy. He can use this to read people's minds as well as communicate with them. Kami also states that Piccolo has improved quite bit in comparison to King Piccolo.
Mini counters
Now for speed feats for his fight against Saitama, the fastest character in the series. By this time he is sub-relativistic, as seeing how he can dodge all of his Saitama's punches, something that Meteroric Boros could not do. And Boros kicked Saitama to the moon and was liquefying his ship into molten steel from sheer speed alone
Why exactly is punching someone at a certain speed make you equal to the speed their traveling. This is the second time I'm seeing this argument being used by an OPM debater. That feat was a clear striking feat for Boros. There is really nothing to prove he was moving at the exact same speed as Saitama was after he got kicked. especially since the speed at which an object has been kicked also relies on the strength behind the kick as well as the weight of the object being kicked. Not to mention we aren't given an exact time frame . On top of that no one before or after that even shows anything close to relativistic combat speed especially Garou. Your entire speed argument seems to hinge on this and TBH I could also argue that Piccolo is FTL. There are more relativistic feats for him to scale on than Garou. So if we are really going by that route Piccolo is faster. And without that Piccolo is still atleast faster than lightening considering he was keeping up with GOku who was taught to be that fast and he moved to fast for even Kami, a being capable of viewing everything on the planet from his sanctuary, to see.
Aside from that Boros burning molten steel was an anime feat and I don't recall it being present in the manga. On top of that Boros even prior to meteor base was actually trading blows with Saitama and was temporarily overwhelming infact Saitama didn't even dodge Boros's kick when they fought.
Garou's advantages are obvious, and I'm going to exploit them as much as I possibly can. The first major one is speed, and he is undeniably and quantifiably faster than Piccolo at this time. Between his relativistic combat speed and precognition, He's not getting tagged. Ever. And Piccolo has no speed feats to suggest he'd react to a blitz, nor the durability feats to tank his blows, while Garou can no-sold about 90% of his arsenal (and dodge the ones that give him trouble) while getting stronger due to reactive evolution.
Relatavistic combat speed? Common seriously. He doesn't have a single feat on that level. Your entire argument for him being on that level is because Boros kicked Saitama to the moon. which as I discussed above isn't a speed feat but a striking feat. You actually quantify his feats and none are above what Piccolo can do. His best feat is when he fought light speed flash in 2 Centiseconds. Which is fast but ins't above Piccolo considering that Roshi and Krillin very early on could think and come up with plans in centiseconds. Though their feat is slower than Garou's, they are also basically fodder to Piccolo in every way. If you are wondering where the centiseconds come from, it's because the webcomic uses stopwatch notation. You will notice that both the picture I linked and the webcomic use the same apostrophes. For those unaware it goes hours:minutes'seconds"centiseconds.
As for no selling his attack. You haven't proved a single energy durability feat, not one. Meaning a single casually ki blast would kill Garou based on actual feats. And this Piccolo has no problem opening a fight with a powerful Ki blast. He did this with Raditz the first time he saw him as well as resorting to vaporizing Saibamen.
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By feats, the stat gap is too large, and there's no way to argue against that w/o speculation and fan theories. This is a simple mismatch
Except it isn't. Garou has no speed feats above Piccolo's. It's ironic that your bring fan theories and specualtion when your speed argument largely revolves around stretching a clear striking feat into a speed feat somehow. On the other hand there is little speculation involved with what I have presented for Piccolo. He kept up with Goku who was explicitly taught to be faster than lightening and moved to fast for even Kami. And considering you have shown 0 energy durability feats for Garou. He get's one shotted at the start of the fight by a casual blast by Piccolo.(If i'm not mistaken Garou has almost no energy durability feats at all. This is seriously going to be a problem for him.) Piccolo can fire light speed blasts, AOE blasts and blasts that folllow you around so Garou dodging them is not really an option. Piccolo on the other hand does possses physical durability showings and hoenstly the speed the just fire a blast before Garou gets near him.
Half of Piccolo's "speed feats" was through a series of meticulous and overly complex scaling. With that alone, I rest my case
Lol really after your entire argument hinges on scaling of Boros? Don't you see how hypocritical you are being. You look t their respective speed speed feats without scaling at all and I would say Piccolo is fast.
TBH you can ignore half of the stuff posted if you want. Piccolo keeping up with post Kami Goku and moving too fast for Kami's eyes is enough. However you ignore that Boros feats and suddenly Garou is no where near as fast.
It was both. Force = mas x acceleration, so the amount of energy generated from his moon kick is split evenly between the speed he was moving and the amount of strength he could produce
You assume the speed was exactly the same though. Yes there is speed involved but what exactly makes the speed exactly the same? Can you actually prove that the speed was the same
You're completely ignoring momentum. Boros' moon kick wasn't pure 100% strength, that's not even possible. Boros' striking power is dependent on how fast he was striking. An object moving at the speed of sound can't generate the same amount of power as an object moving at the speed of lighteven if they had the same power. The one that would generate more force would be the one that was moving faster. And objects moving at relativistic speeds (close to light) gain an increase in mass.
Note that I say "also" I never said there was no speed at all what so ever. But as I said before the speed is not equal to the object fired. I mean you can punch someone at relativistic speeds and they won't move at half the speed if you have no strength. Like wise you can punch someone at speed of sound but with enough strength send them flying to the moon. For example when Skaar sent Juggernaugt into space at FTL speeds(You can see Juggs near another planet). That was pure strength, Skaar isn't FTL. Now I'm not saying those two feats are the same and there is a level of speed Boros was moving when he performed the kick. However saying it is the exact level of speed of the person he kicked is flawed. Especially when you take into account other factors for such as his strength. And when you take into account no one actually showed that level of speed before and after the feat(Saitama jumping isn't a combat showing). It really doesn't make sense to assume he was moving at the speed you claim him to. It's speculation that he kicked at the same speed. And TBH you can't actually ever tell how fast he was moving. You can't accurately say what part of that feat of strength and what was speed. There is so much speculation(Which is ironic consdierng to speculation comment). I mean if Boros had kick say a much larger object like Godzilla or somene less durable. The speed would have been different. Would that make the speed at which Boros moved any slower?
And if speed is enough then why didn't Garou every punch someone to the moon or punch anyone to light speed speed? I mean if he is moving at a certain speed he should generate that level of force as you claimed however we never see it happen. All he does break is some bedrock which is a really poor feat.
There's no timeframe in the manga, but going off the one in the anime Saitama reached the moon in approximately 2 seconds. That's easily relativistic (close to lightspeed), which means Saitama gained an increase in mass, which means Boros' leg was also moving along the lines of sub-relativistic to relativistic for sending him there.
Why are you going off the anime. I go of the anime and Piccolo is FTL considering he was faster than Raditz post 1 year training who was explicitly stated to be FTL. The anime really doesn't affect the manga.
Yes we did. It took one panel for him to get their, and in the anime it took 2 seconds (either way it's low end relativistic)
That is not a time frame. A time frame would be if the actually specified the time like they did in that light speed flash feat. And again why bring up the anime. We already dicussed in the pm about no anime feats.
Except for when Saitama jumed back from the moon at low-relativistic speeds, then blitzed Boros, who is established to be sub-relativistic at bare minimum. And Garou can keep up with casual Saitama, so he's sub-relativistic to relativistic also. And that's without factoring in his precog, which allowed him to dodge all of Saitama's attacks ahead of time and counter attack the instant before Saitama's blow lands:
As I said combat speed. Jumping from one place to another is not a combat speed showing. And how is Boros sub-relatavistic? because he kicked someone to the moon. There is so much speculation involved here. You ignore the fact that the strength and weight of the object also play the part on how fast it is.
Pay attention to that specific panel that says "dodging before you've attacked". Yeah, Piccolo isn't tagging him at all, and absolutely NONE of your speed feats for Piccolo would suggest otherwise. Going off of your opener, Piccolo is massively hypersonic, and saying Garou is anything less than relativistic is blatant denial.
How is it denial when Garou has no relativistic speed feats of his own. Garou only has scaling. Only scaling to put him at relativistic speed feats. A relativistic feat would be him actually having a feat of moving at such speed instead of scaling off. You know Piccolo has a relativistic feat of blowing up the moon.
...Your point? Lightning is massively hypersonic+....
The speed lightening differs for a stepped leader and dart leader. The former is just the initial strike while the latter is all the strikes after. The dart leader is around Mach 5830 while the stepped leader is Mach 437.Source. The return stroke is actually what is most commonly seen from what I read which is around 320,000,000 Feet per Second.(Source) That is close to around 1/3rd the speed of light. Now I will play it safe and go in the middle with the Dart Stroke speed. Which is still above MHS imo. And Goku achieved that level of speed as kid and was much faster when he fought Piccolo.
I'd like to see those
What? You can't just say Piccolo has better scaling and call it a day. The people who Garou is scaled off of (Saitama and Boros) are tiers faster than any Saiyan Saga character. Garou is as well
All right since you asked so kindly. Now I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing Piccolo is FTL. However Neither is Boros that said there are certain feats that could be interpreted as FTL feats.
I showed this feat earlier. But this actually a FTL when you actually look at it. Goku moves fast enough that at the moment the solar flare is fired Goku goes to pick up Roshi's glasses and put them one before the light reaches him. He clearly did this the moment the attack is fired because you scan see that Tien is look directly at him the entire time. Goku could have only moved at the moment it was fired.
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Now another feat I presented earlier. Where Piccolo was able to blast the moon away in a single panel.
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This faster than the previous moon blast which was around relatavistic speed. The feats I'm referring to is Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha which took 2-3 panels to destroy the moon.
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Now should establish that the more powerful you are the faster your blasts. When Piccolo used his most powerful attack the light of death(Special beam cannon) Raditz was fast enough to side step the blast. Now considering he casual blasts are FTL, Raditz should be too. Infact since we are now bringing up the anime, Piccolo stated that Raditz is faster than the speed of light.
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As to why this is relevant to Piccolo. Well he was fast enough to catch a Saibamen and kill them with it being able to do anything. And single Saibamen is equal to Raditz.
Boros at no point overwhelmed Saitama in a trade of blows; Saitama took all of his attacks head on. And Saitama casually blitzed the hell out of him after jumping back from the moon, blowing him apart with consecutive normal punches before Boros could react
As I said. He traded blows with Saitama in his regular base form. Matching his speed and even getting a blow on him whilst they were trading attack
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And again here trading blows with him.
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And I said temporarily overwhelming him. Which he did here.
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I don't if you just don't remember those or if it's something else. But as I said he did managed to trade blows and temporarily overwhelm him.
When Saitama actually go serious
No. Garou is faster than casual Saitama, and I proved that in my opener. It was only after Saitama got serious that Garou lost the speed advantage. Saitama jumped back from the moon at low-relativistic speeds (landed back on the ship before Boros could complete a thought) and blitzed Boros. Garou scales to both of them quite easily
I never said he wasn't faster than a casual Saitama. Nor did I say he doesn't scale to them. It's just they don't have relativistic combat feats. Jumping from one place is still a travel speed feat.
Also one more thing. Boros too was keeping up with a Casual Saitama and blitzing him as well. However began losing once he got serious. Saitama only started blitzing Boros once he got serious to the point where he used the most strength he has used in series to date. So if a serious Saitama is still faster than Garou then why exactly are you scaling of Saitama.
Huh? Do you not realize that physically can generate energy? Like how some strikes are calced based off their TNT yield, and in the OPM verse energy attacks are susceptible to blunt force that can cause greater destructive power.
Yes and KI energy blasts have blunt force with them your point? there is a clear difference between physical and energy durability and you have been on vine long enough to know that. Because split durability works both ways. Garou best strikcing feats are shattering bedrock. Piccolo casual blasts are city level. So that is not happening.
It's shared by both speed and striking
True. So the speed that Saitama was sent flying at was also due to Boros's strength. So to say Boros can kick at the same speed as that is pure speculation. And again I'm not syaing there is no speed involved there just isn't proof that it is the exact same speed.
Except literally every single one of them, which can be found in my opener
OK which one of those feats are better than Piccolo moving to fast even Kami to see,. Because the only "feat" potentially is, is him blitzing Saitama. And only if Boros's kicked Saitama to the moon at relativistic speed. That "feat" requires a degree of scaling for it to be actually quantifiable faster. However take that out and Garou really has nothing above Piccolo.
For the energy durability thing, Garou doesn't have any, but he can dodge Piccolo's attacks which most definitely aren't lightspeed. And fire a blast before Garou gets near? Blitzing is Garou's favorite thing, to do, and Piccolo has no reaction speed feats to suggest he'd dodge a blow from Garou that wrecks his muscles (after analyzing his body to find it's weakness)
And why aren't they lightspeed. Piccolo fired a blast to moon practically instantly that would be light speed. And no scaling from someone else needed here it's his own feat and Garou has no feats of reacting to such an attack. If Garou is going to try analyze muscles he gets blasted to bits at the start of the fight and it ends there.
Garou has a majority, if not every single advantage here except DC. In speed, Piccolo brings nothing to the table. He can react to him, can't tag him, and can't keep up with him.
Garou doesn't have speed advantage. He doesn't have a durability advantage considering he can literally be oneshotted. And look you can keep saying he faster but that doesn't make it anymore true. Piccolo can literally one shot him with a simple ki blast. Garou isn't dodging a AOE blast. Piccolo can jsut do this and end it. Garou doesn't have flight like Tien and even he can jump high he leaves himself vulnerable in the air.
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And since one off showings are now good enough, Piccolo's ki blast can also move at light speeds. He has a feat of doing so. All he has to do is fire a single blast and the fight ends then and there.
And emperorthanos forgot one key ability of Garou: Reactive Evolution. He gains stronger and faster in accordance to how powerful his opponent is, gaining additional powers and abilities in reaction to how his opponent affects him. An example of this is gaining wings for flight in his final form, or gaining precognition on the fly when he fought Saitama, or how he gets faster and stronger in every single fight.
So what exactly is he going to do. Are you now going to speculate how he will improve during the fight(That comment keeps coming back doesn't it.)
Another thing completely ignored was his ever-growing durability. He tanked numerous blows from Saitama (some serious) and got back up to keep fighting. He's one of the most durable characters in OPM, and unlike Boros and Evil Natural who can tank Saitama's blows due to intangibility and regen Garou actually had the durability to withstand the onslaughts and only lost the battle due to broken morale.
Yup that's great and all but he doesn't have a single energy durability feat. Like not one. So while he has great physical durability he has no feats against energy attacks. And we can't assume he will just evolve when he has never done so before. He get's vaporized by a casual blast.
Conclusion.
As I said before your entire argument for Garou winning revolves on the assumption that when Boros kicked Saitama he was moving at relativistic speeds because Saitama was sent to the moon at relativistic speeds. It involves a degree of speculation as there is no actual way of proving he was moving that fast, or that it wasn't mainly due to strength. When you take into account that combat showings prior and post that feat do not reach that level it makes more than likely that he wasn't moving at said level. On top of that Piccolo has shown to fire blasts at relativistic speeds. He has a feat of it, so no scaling or speculation required here. The argument often used against that feat is that it is inconsistent but I can say the same for Garou who himself has never displayed anything close to relatavistic speed and can only scale from one dubious speed feat. So even we are to to assume Garou is as fast as you claim Piccolo can still tag him with an energy blast. Or he can fire an AOE blast where Garou's speed is going to help much. And Since Garou has 0 energy durability showings a single blast is all it takes for him to end Garou. While on the other hand Garou's best stricking feats are breaking some bedrock and that is at his strongest. He certainly wouldn't start with his most powerful punches in character and it would take more than a single hit of that caliber to take Piccolo while the same can't be said for Garou.
Short debate, but based off what was presented I would go with @emperorthanos.He proved to me that piccolo has the means to win given that Garou has shown no energy based durability feats.
He explained how Piccolo would deal the situation showing the feats to support his claims even without too much scaling, especially regarding the speed part, I wasn't convinced that Garou is relativistic just by scaling from boros kick.
EmperorThanos countered every point and proved how Piccolo could end Garou thanks to his energy attacks.
@emperorthanos: My vote goes to him. He proved why Piccolo would oneshot Garou and countered most if not all of Vulcan's arguments with a good, strong counter argument. While Vulcan's argument relied on scaling to Boros, someone who managed to stand toe to toe with Saitama due to his stats and regen, while Garou managed too because Saitama wasn't trying to kill him and his Martial Arts and Evolution. Great debate though to both sides.
@emperorthanos: unlike your opponent you made sound accusations for physicals unlike the typical nonsense we see in OPM threads. I'm really not trying to insult or sound biased but This one isn't even mildly debatable. Anyone who got past your opener can clearly see that.
@cosmic_lantern: I find that last comment to be unnecessarily rude and condescending
In reality, Garou has very little to work with, and going off of pure feats he would be city block lvl without scaling to Saitama or Boros. The feedback I've gotten from people here and Thanos himself in the pm convinced me that I relied to much on scaling here. Same thing happened in all my other CaVs, whether I won or lost (it's a matter of character choice).
Anyways if you want to continue our old CaV or make a new thread I'm all for it, but I'd rather you stop with the insults. You get heated quickly
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