Netflix' Frank Castle will be taking on CW Oliver Queen. Who will emerge victorious?
Rules:
This is a CaV, please don't interrupt the debate. You can ask to be tagged for voting after this is over or after every post.
Please vote for the debater you feel conveyed their points better, not the character you think would win.
Please don't post feats for the characters or anything that could be relevant to the battle.
Have fun reading
Battle rules:
This is an unarmed fight between the characters
Both of them are in-character but are taking the fight seriously
They are wearing their standard outfits for the fight
Takes place in an empty dojo
We are both very busy human beings, preoccupied with life and education, meaning this CaV could take a few months to finish. We will reply and post when we have time, no rushing it. Looking forward to a good debate.
@the_wspanialy: I like how you come here and tag me saying that after I call you out on being disrespectful on another cav..... very mature. Please delete your comments
Your continous delusion of having a moral high ground is certainly amusing.
Please focus on the CaV instead of trying to pick a fight. You'll have your hands full once @thesuperor starts, I assure you.
Don't bother responding, I won't reply. Wouldn't want to interrupt CaV yet again.
@thesuperor apologies for interruption. This won't happen again.
"One batch, two batch. Penny and dime" - Frank Castle
Bio:
Frank Castle is a violent vigilante and former member of the United States Marine Corps, who had joined Cerberus squad while he was serving in Afghanistan. Fearing he was slowly losing his honor under the command of Agent Orange, Castle returned to his family, only to lose them all during a brutal shooting right in front of him. This caused the birth of the Punisher, as he aimed to clean up New York City of all crime by any means necessary.
Damage Soak
One of his most defining factors in the comics and live action and the Netflix adapted it quite well.
One of the most defining factors of the character, Frank in a bulletproof vest tanked machine gun fire in his back and kept going like it was nothing.
More feats:
In this next scene here, we see frank getting a drill straight through his leg, and shortly after fighting his way out with Daredevil.
In this next scene it shows Frank getting tortured by Agent Orange. Frank is tortured so bad he is given adrenaline to keep him suffering, and amazingly he gets the zip ties off and kills agent orange, as well as that obviously.. he lives.
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Fighting Skill
Franks fighting skill is often underrated:
His fighting style is extremely lethal with various martial arts techniques and fighting styles for hand-to-hand combat. During his time in the United States Marine Corps, Frank had Infantry training, and Force Reconnaissance. He also received training from the Airborne School, and Navy Seal training, he went through the USMC's and Sniper Schools. As well as U.S. Navy Underwater Demolition Team training, becoming qualified as a Navy Seal. He also uses the MCMAP while fighting (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program).
Like I said, Franks h2h is nothing to be overlooked as he has been able to keep up with the likes of Daredevil for a little while, who is equal to if not better than Green Arrows skill, because of being trained from a younger age, knowing more martial art combat forms, and as well as being a faster and more fluid fighter than Oliver.
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In this scene Frank fights his way through 10+ armed prisoners with no weapon in a confined hallway.
Here Franks shows enough skill and speed to disarm Daredevil from his billy club. And gets a good shot in at Matt after. Mind you, its a pretty amazing feat to tag daredevil period.
Strength
Frank disarms a police officer and knocks him out with an elbow, all in a matter of seconds
In this scene, Frank gets shot in the arm minutes before. And Frank still goes on to lift daredevil with one arm (the arm that got shot), and continues to throw him through a window causing him to fall to the next floor.
Frank headbutts Daredevil hard enough to visibly hurt him, not only that but keep in mind Daredevils helmet is stated by Melvin Potter (who made it) to be bullet proof.
Conclusion
Along with that, Frank has the durability/damage soak to take any hit Ollie will throw at him. As well as enough skill and feats to finish the job. I believe Ollie will be taken off guard by how relentless and well-versed Frank is with his movements and h2h combat (as he has fought and kept up with more skilled and faster opponents such as daredevil), and that will eventually lead to Olivers downfall.
"My name is Oliver Queen. For five years, I was stranded on an island with only one goal-- Survive. Now I will fulfill my father's dying wish-- to use the list of names he left me and bring down those who are poisoning my city. To do this, I must become someone else. I must become something else."
After being lost at sea and stranded on an Island in the north China sea, Oliver had to transform himself into a human weapon to survive. Oliver has 5 years of training and experience under extreme conditions on an hellish island, which most people can't even imagine. He has now currently been the vigilante and protector of Star City for seven years, and has faced dangers most people can't even fathom. Oliver has proved himself to be one of the absolute greatest marital artist in a universe of a lot of incredible fighters. I would like to take a deeper dive into Oliver's training, as I believe this is a crucial point in a fight such as this.
Training
Oliver has gone through a bunch of different mentors, with different abilities, fighting styles and things to teach him. This makes Oliver a very versatile, unpredictable and dangerous opponent for anyone to face. Oliver's first real mentor was Slade Wilson, a member of an elite division of the Austrailian Secret Intelligence Service. Slade laid the foundation of Oliver's abilities as a combatant, teaching him the martial arts he had self been thought in the army, this means that Oliver should have a vast understanding of Frank's fighting styles, as Frank is military trained. At the end of Slade's training, Oliver proved himself to be a very competent fighter in the traditional military fighting styles. Oliver's next significant mentor was Maseo, who was an Argus operative. Maseo helped to form Oliver as a fighter with the knowledge of martial arts training he picked up as an operative. Maseo proved himself to be somewhat different from a regular operative, as Maseo was a master in performing the unpredictable in combat situations. Maseo was capable of performing 360 degrees kicks in combat was adapt in multiple styles of kung fu. It is obvious that Oliver picked up a lot of Maseo's tricks and skills already in his time in Hong Kong, Oliver transitioned from a more physical style of fighting which he was taught by Slade, to a quicker and more skilled based style which he was thought by Maseo. We can also see hints of Maseo's training in the current day, as Oliver performs the same 360 degree kick as Maseo performed in Hong Kong. Oliver was also thought the way of the League of Assassins by both Talia and Ra's al ghul. I will focus on his training by Ra's al ghul because Ra's is more established as a fighter, and might in fact be the best martial artist in the world. Under his training with Ra's, Oliver saw drastic improvements, he was now able to deal easily with opposition he had previously struggled with. The League bases their fighting styles in very athletic fighting styles and involves a lot of kicks, and is way more skill oriented than the training both Frank and Oliver has undergone with the military.
Just to put into context just what level the League operates on, I have this nice quote by Sara from Arrow season 2
Dig, you may be a three-tour Special Forces specialist, but the people who trained me make Special Forces look like a kindergarten class, so step aside, or get put down
Being trained by so many teachers, in so many different fighting styles gives Oliver an significant edge in the skill departement, which we will come back to later on.
Now, it's difficult the pinpoint exactly what Oliver's greatest asset is, as he is extremely skilled in combat, incredibly strong and quick, with near superhuman durability. I will start off by making this statement: Oliver has the advantage over Frank in every single aspect as far as combat in concerned. And this is why:
Skill/Combat ability
Oliver is as mentioned an extremely skilled fighter, who has undergone a lot of varied training in extreme conditions. I will lay down Oliver's basis as a fighter by first presenting some extraordinary feats against fodder.
In the video below we have s1 Oliver slicing his way through 19 hired mercenaries, without getting tagged even once. Oliver did use his bow to take out a couple of them, but approaches most of them in close quarters combat. Just because Oliver carries his bow, does not discredit this as a feat.
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Similarly Oliver fights his way through 18 gires mercs in his mission to save Thea. This is again without getting tagged even once, he is at times occupied with 4 opponents at once, and does not get tagged.
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This next is an unarmed feat for Oliver, where he and Talia fights their way through an army of armed and armored prison guards. Oliver handles them with ease, and again without getting tagged. Oliver approached 9 guards all in all and deals with them with no effort what so ever.
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The 3 feats I have presented so far should lay a good foundation of Oliver's ability as a combatant.
Here are a couple of shorter gif's showcasing Oliver's ability to plow through a smaller amount of fodder unarmed. Oliver is completely surrounded by opponents on every side and still manages to defeat them with utter ease.
Feats against established opposition.
Oliver has beat some of the finest combatants in the Arrowverse, including Merlyn, Prometheus, Ra's al ghul, Damien Darhk and so on. Oliver has even gone against multiple high tier characters at once. The fights I will like to draw out are his showings against the combined efforts of Cupid and China White and his fight against Diggle, Sara and Thea, where he manages to hold off all of them simultaneously. Just to further highlight how much improvement he went through under his training with Ra's al ghul, I would like to use his showings against Ra's himself, China White and Merlyn to prove that.
First off, Ra's al ghul. Oliver went from being absolutely slaughtered by Ra's al ghul, to the extent where Oliver didn't stand a single chance against him, to being able to fight him on equal footing and eventually kill him. These were both sword fights but really does highlight the changes he went through.
Secondly I would like to use his showing against China White in season 1, where they were pretty much equal and compare that to their encounters in season 5, where Oliver ended her in a couple of seconds. In their season 1 encounter she really presented a challenge but in season 5 she isn't really perceived as a threat. He also, as mentioned, fights off both China White and Cupid simultaneously.
Oliver went from being an already great martial artist to being the best there is, period.
Here are some of his skill showings against established opposition. He is able to outskill Prometheus, who was specifically trained to be a counter to Oliver by their former mentor. This goes to show that Oliver isn't just a one trick pony and that he draw on varied combat training to overcome opposition.
Gallery
Here is Oliver going toe to toe with, and eventually defeating a superhuman opponent in Stardust
I think I have laid the groundwork to prove how Oliver and Frank does not operate in the same tier as far as skill is concerned.
Strength
By his training Oliver has achieved peak human physical condition and is massively superhuman compared to real life standards.
Oliver is easily capable of rag dolling grown men.
Oliver also hits incredibly hard. He is able to stagger superhuman mirakuru users and punch clean through stone statues.
Oliver has on multiple occasions shown himself capable of staggering and hurting superhuman opposition and can punch clean through stone and even snap metal chains and cuffs with his bare hands.
Durability
Oliver has proven himself ridiculously durable and has insane endurance. I don't think I have to take a deep dive into all of Oliver's durabiliy feats, I'd rather just present the basis on which he operates on.
Oliver has been tossed through a concrete wall and taken a shot to the head that sent him flying, while fighting Gold. He got up completely fine and went on to win the fight.
Gallery
Oliver has tanked a hit from a Dominator that launched him off a building and walked it of like it was nothing.
Oliver has even tanked a punch from Overgirl, who is the equal to Supergirl. He got knocked down, spit out some blood, got up and continued fighting.
Once again, they do not operate on the same level in this category either.
One might argue that Frank's greatest quality is his endurance but even there he is completely outmatched.
I'd like to use the example of Arrow 7x7 Slabside Redemption as a whole to showcase Oliver's endurance. Oliver goes through the follwoing during the course of the episode:
He is electrocuted by tasers
He fights his way through 8-10 prison staff and about 20 prisoners
He is peppersprayed and beaten by Brick and Sampson
He is drugged by Stanley
He fights superhuman Diaz where he is sliced 4 times with the knife
He takes a 30 ft. fall
Stabbed through the shoulder
Takes a kick taht sends him flying 10 ft. into a concrete wall
And he walks out of the prison victorious at the end of the episode.
Speed
I could present examples of Oliver's amazing reflexes but I would rather focus on his combat speed as I feel that is more relevant for this fight. This is a great display of Oliver's combat speed, where he manages to keep up with, and tagg Flash in action.
This isn't the greatest choreo the show has ever had but it's the intention of the scene that matters. This scene sees Ollie take out 6 mercs in about 6 seconds.
These 2 feats showcased are completely out of the realm of Frank.
Rebuttals
One of his most defining factors in the comics and live action and the Netflix adapted it quite well.
One of the most defining factors of the character, Frank in a bulletproof vest tanked machine gun fire in his back and kept going like it was nothing.
His damage soak is his most defining factors and even here he falls short. I believe that the feats I have presented of Oliver tanking hits from superhumans and his incredible endurance showing from 7x7 puts him at a significant advantage over Frank.
His fighting style is extremely lethal with various martial arts techniques and fighting styles for hand-to-hand combat.
I have to disagree with this point. Sure Frank is lethal but not with various martial arts techniques. This is where their training background come into play. As you mention, Frank goes through a lot of training but very little of that training is relevant to a h2h encounter.
And this is Frank's downfall. Frank is not a grappeler and has never displayed any sort of skill as far as grappeling, trapping or locking is concerned. Neither is Frank skilled enough to take this fight to the ground, where Oliver makes his living. Oliver can complement different submission techniques evident in his showings against Brick, Kovar and Sampson, where he takes the fight to the ground and puts them in arm bars and knee bars. Frank does not want to take this fight to the ground.
Frank is also very one sided when it comes to his martial arts, he is limited to punching and blocking. Frank never performs acrobatic movements of kicks in combat. Kicks are a very significant part of combat and since Frank does not possess the ability to throw a spinning hook kick og a round house kick to catch Oliver off guard, means that this is one less thing Oliver has to worry about. Oliver would exclusively have to worry about his punches. Frank offers very little variety in this departement. Oliver on the other hand is the complete opposite, he regularly implements all sorts of kicks into his fighting. Frank could be completely caught off guard by an acrobatic kick such as this.
Frank would have to deal with not only an amazing striker, but also an amazing grappeler, ground fighter and kicker.
Like I said, Franks h2h is nothing to be overlooked as he has been able to keep up with the likes of Daredevil for a little while, who is equal to if not better than Green Arrows skill, because of being trained from a younger age, knowing more martial art combat forms, and as well as being a faster and more fluid fighter than Oliver.
I don't support a single word you just wrote there. Frank was able to keep up with early s2 Daredevil before he had to draw a gun on him. Daredevil improves significantly during his encounters with the hand and towards the end of the season Daredevil handles him easily.
I don't want to go into a Green Arrow vs Daredevil comparison unless you want to use that as a means of scaling. I don't find the comparison very useful as it's evident that Matt is superior to Frank by the end of the season.
In this scene Frank fights his way through 10+ armed prisoners with no weapon in a confined hallway.
That is hardly impressive compared to the feats I have presented of s1 Ollie. Frank consistently gets tagged and takes heavy damage in his fights. Oliver can fight his way through over a dozen without getting hit once.
Here Franks shows enough skill and speed to disarm Daredevil from his billy club. And gets a good shot in at Matt after. Mind you, its a pretty amazing feat to tag daredevil period.
That feat sounds more impressive than it actually is. What you fail to mention is that Daredevil always gets tagged in his fights. Daredevil relies on his endurance to beat the odds. Daredevil gets tagged in his s1 hallway fight, so many times. He gets tagged by the Dogs of Hell, so many times. He gets tagged against the human traffickers at the docks in s1. He gets tagged by Fisk, Melvin, Stick and so on. I think you would have to provide me with a fight where he doesn't get tagged.
Frank headbutts Daredevil hard enough to visibly hurt him, not only that but keep in mind Daredevils helmet is stated by Melvin Potter (who made it) to be bullet proof.
Being bulletproof and feeling a headbutt isn't really a comparison. A bulletproof best is bulletproof, you would still feel a punch. Two completely different things.
Conclusion
Along with that, Frank has the durability/damage soak to take any hit Ollie will throw at him
Frank's damage soak will only prolong the fight and not by an extensive margin. He has never been up against an opponent that hits as hard as Oliver.
I believe Ollie will be taken off guard by how relentless and well-versed Frank is with his movements and h2h combat
Oliver is rarely ever caught off guard. And certainly won't be against an opponent that has yet to hang with characters of Oliver's caliber. Oliver on the other hand faces thugs like Frank every monday night.
(as he has fought and kept up with more skilled and faster opponents such as daredevil)
Except he hasn't. He was clearly inferior to end of s2 Daredevil and there is very little to suggest that Daredevil in his prime is superior to Oliver in any extent of the word.
The Fight
This is my two cents on the fight.
Frank constantly allows himself to get tagged, something he quite simply can't afford in this fight. You might have noticed that I have had a strong emphasis on Oliver not getting tagged in his fights, cause he rarely ever does, even against more skilled opponents than Frank. Frank is also limited to fighting Oliver traditionally, where he relies on punching alone, whereas Oliver can take the fight to the ground, he can start out grappeling Frank and throw acrobatic kicks into the mix. Frank has a non existent guard and will allow himself to get tagged. And Oliver will certainly land the first hit due to massively superior combat speed. Oliver's guard is so good that it would be a struggle for Frank to breach it, and even if he were to breach it, he quite simply does not possess the strength to take Oliver down.
Compared to Oliver, Frank is a one trick pony. Oliver will be able to read him easily and adapt to anything Frank can throw at him. Oliver would catch Frank off guard by implementing kicks and his sheer variety when it comes to martial arts. Frank is limited to the military combat form he learnt in the military whereas Oliver can draw from different martial arts backgrounds.
I see no outcome where Frank walks out victorious.
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