CAV: Firestorm & Red Tornado vs. Sue Storm & Psylocke

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#1  Edited By Hellespont

Challenge-A-Viner

This is a debate where I will be debating against Marveld2 and Scarlet_Wiccan, not a standard battle forum thread. Opinions should be kept to yourself until voting. If you would like to vote (based on the debate and character representation, not your personal opinion), just let me know and you will be tagged. Enjoy!

Team DC: Firestorm & Red Tornado

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Represented by Hellespont.

  • Composite versions (Everything besides Pre-Crisis)
  • Firestorm has composite feats from the various Firestorm's (Ronnie, Jason, etc.)

Team Marvel: Psylocke and Invisible Woman

No Caption Provided

Represented by Marveld2 & Scarlet_Wiccan.

  • Standard 616 versions

The Rules

  • Psylocke is not allowed to attack telepathically.
  • Firestorm is not allowed to use transmutation on Pyslocke or Sue's bodies directly, however he can still affect the environment, etc.
  • Morals on / In character.
  • Battle takes place on a barren, indestructible earth with no civilians.
  • Fight to the death or knockout.

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Team DC: The Elementals

Firestorm

No Caption Provided

One fateful day teenage Ronnie Raymond and physicist Martin Stein found themselves in the middle of an experiment gone wrong. The two were pulled into a what is known as the Firestorm-Matrix and fused into a composite being; the nuclear powered superhero Firestorm! Since then many have dawned the Firestorm mantle and wielded the powers of the Firestorm-Matrix against the forces of evil.- [More information here.]

Power-set:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, and durability
  • Flight
  • Energy manipulation, projection, and absorption
  • Transmutation
  • Temperature manipulation
  • Precognition
  • Intangibility

Among other things.

Red Tornado

No Caption Provided

Upon the merging of the consciousnesses of T.O. Morrow's villainous android and the alien wind spirit "Tornado Champion" , a new cybernetic life form was born. Despite the evil nature of it's components, this being took up earth's struggle against evil under the superhero title of Red Tornado. -[More information here.]

Power-Set:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, and durability
  • Flight
  • Aerokinesis
  • Telepathic resistance

Among other things.

The Debate Begins:

I am going to preface this by stating that my knowledge on your team is minimal (Sue I have read up on a respectable amount, but Psylocke next to nothing). Due to this fact, rather than analyzing the battle itself, I am going to stick to briefly presenting some of my teams key strong suits.

Advantages

A) Firepower

Both Firestorm and Red Tornado have the ability to produce prodigious amounts of destructive force. Which makes sense considering one is nuclear powered and the other controls tornadoes. To support this though, here's some of their showings.

Firestorm's nuclear energy blasts:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Firestorm #20: One-shots a giant Thanagarian warship.
  • Firestorm #2: During Jason's first day as Firestorm (before knowing how to control his powers or utilize his full potential) he levels an entire mountain range.

Red Tornado's wind attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Red Tornado #1: Creates a tornado with a wind speed of a 738mph.
  • Red Tornado #2: Matches his sister's water blast. Earlier in the issue, she was one-shotting fighter jets with the same attack.
  • Red Tornado #6: Barrels through solid rock and out the side of a mountain with his wind.

Overall, I think it is pretty safe to say that if either Firestorm or Red-T land a direct blow on either member of your team, it is game over, considering your teams natural durability (w/o shielding) is negligible.

B) Physicality

While neither of my characters do much brawling, when they do, they're actually rather impressive. Demonstrating some hand to hand skill, elite strength, etc. However, I doubt this battle will go hand-to-hand (unless Psylocke is a brawler and I'm unaware), so I am going to focus on my teams durability.

Firestorm's durability:

No Caption Provided

Fury of Firestorm: The Nuclear Man: Both Jason and Ronnie no-sell an explosion that leveled a large portion of a city and was later revealed to have incinerated 2,000 people.

Red Tornado's durability:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Young Justice #17: No-sells a punch from Superboy.
  • Red Tornado #3: Gets slammed from the sky into a volcano, which then explodes and covers him with lava. He is completely fine and gains the upper hand in the fight on the next page.

It's clear we hold the advantage in natural durability, and can tank the best attacks you have to offer.

C) Super Speed

This point is critical. The speed difference here is immense. While your team is limited to peak human, Red Tornado is hyper-sonic+ and Firestorm is light-speed+.

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  • Red Tornado #2: Red Tornado flies 1,000 miles instantly.
  • Firestorm #6: Firestorm flies from the earth to the moon in one page.

Are they speedsters? No. But by comparison they might as well be. My team will be flying circles around you this entire battle, enabling us to evade more reliably, attack at a higher volume, and potentially even win via speed-blitz.

D) Versatility

Certainly your greatest strong suit in this battle is your hax abilities, but I think I actually trump you here as well. Just look at Firestorm's list of powers above, he is truly a Swiss army knife, and one of the most versatile characters in comics. He alone has more powers and diverse implications than your entire team. Then coupled with Red Tornado's complete control of air.... There's not a whole lot my duo can't do.

Closing Remarks

Simply put, I think you are outmatched on all fronts. Not to discredit Sue and Psylocke, they have noteworthy hax, but they are severely outgunned, out sped, and will be overpowered.

Alright guys! Sorry it's a bit brief, I had a hectic past couple of days.... But the opener is done! Balls in your court now. ;)

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Captain Britain (Psylocke)

Introduction :

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Telekinetic Power

Psylocke definitely has the offence to hurt or stagger both your character quite easily

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She's capable of instantly stomping the First fallen (Someone stated to be one of the most powerful beings in the universe/While also riviling the Phoenix's power) and she's also capable of sending merlyn flying (Also stated to be the keeper of the universe)

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Here she knocks down someone as strong as colossus with zero effort (The same guy who could effortlessly catch She hulk's punch and knock her a side remember she's a causally 100 toner)

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She can also create Telekinetic blades which could pierce Rouge's skin (Which is completely Bulletproof) and it can match Wolverine's Adamantium claws

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Overpowers Rachel grey's Telekinetic raw power (Rachel is capable of sending Thor flying and lifting a whole city)

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Her Telekinetic Katana is capable staggering Ronan (Which is durable enough to no sell a punch form Colossus the same guy who could trade blows with Gladiator, Hulk, Thing, Juggernaut and She hulk)

Here's a few scans of her collapsing multi story buildings with Zero effort :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Telekinetic Shields

She has very powerful shields which is not as great as invisible woman's but still it's a formidable force

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Here she tanks a blast form Merlyn (High class Reality warper)

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She's also capable of shielding a space shuttle and keeps the heat out form a re-entry into earth's atmosphere

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This her most impressive telekinetic feat is when she took the G-Force of that of a planet (Note : She was knocked out afterwards)

Telekinetic Skill :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She can also use it to stop her bleeding and enchance her physical stats to almost the level of rouges (She can also fly at increable speeds)

Speed/Reactions :

Psylocke has enhance reactions to due her training form the hand

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Slices bullets apart at close range (4) and dodges a bunch of lasers (3)
  • Reacts to Silver sabre (Someone who could ran at super sonic speeds) (1)
  • Her Shields reacts instinctively and tanks a explosion (2)

Counters to your Advantages :

Overall, I think it is pretty safe to say that if either Firestorm or Red-T land a direct blow on either member of your team, it is game over, considering your teams natural durability (w/o shielding) is negligible

Sue maybe a class cannon but Psylocke she's capable of enhancing her physicals to the level of classic Rouge (OT : She can tank a few attacks without her shield)

While neither of my characters do much brawling, when they do, they're actually rather impressive. Demonstrating some hand to hand skill, elite strength, etc. However, I doubt this battle will go hand-to-hand (unless Psylocke is a brawler and I'm unaware), so I am going to focus on my teams durability.

Yes Psylocke is a very formidable H2h fighter (She stalemated Wolverine/Daredevil and Sabertooth) I will post the scans later in my second post but She's also capable of attacking at range

Are they speedsters? No. But by comparison they might as well be. My team will be flying circles around you this entire battle, enabling us to evade more reliably, attack at a higher volume, and potentially even win via speed-blitz.

But both of my team shields work of the speed of thought, so I don't think your team will land a blow without breaking their shields first

Conclusion :

Psylocke has very powerful shields and offence that's capable of seriously injuring both of your characters (Especially Red tornado) Considering that Psylocke has zero morals your team will have to deal with a swarm of telekinetic attacks (Blades)

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Wow - this is actually a mighty interestin' CaV. I'll follow.

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Alts unite

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#15 Amendment50  Online

T4V

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TAEP

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#17  Edited By Scarlet_Wiccan

Susan Storm aka The Invisible Woman

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#Bio:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

#The Battle:

- I will only be using capabilities and feats for Sue that I feel will factor into this specific battle

- I will be cropping most of my scans since we're not allowed to post full comic pages, so if something is unclear let me know and I'll see if I can find the issue number

- You are completely correct by noting that Sue and Psylocke are at a large disadvantage when it comes to physical strength and durability but both ladies more than makes up for in terms of psionic power and versatility

*Invisibility

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- Sue can become fully or partially invisible by mentally bending the light waves around her, she can also make anyone or anything in her vicinity invisible.

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- Sue can blind opponents by making their optic nerves invisible

*Force Fields

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- Sue's force field prevents Sersi from directly effecting her with her matter manipulation

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- Sue's force field itself has no true molecular structure thus it can't be effected by matter manipulation

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- Sue's force field renders the intangible Red Ghost tangible

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- Sue can will her force field to prevent air from passing through

Defensive Feats:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

1) Sue blocks a blast from Silver Surfer

2) Sue's force field tanks blows from both Blackbolt and Namor

3) Sue contains a gamma bomb that was meant to kill the group of heroes present which included Hulk, Thing, Hercules, Colossus, ect.

4) Sue casually bloccks Blastaar's full power

5) Sue's force field tanks several blows from a confident Gladiator

6) Sue contains Human Torch's Nova Blast that can be compared to the heat and intensity of a star

7) Sue's force field survives in lava and completely blocks out the heat.

No Caption Provided

- Sue can create multiple force fields at once, so she can protect herself and attack at the same time.

Offensive Feats

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1) Sue creates force field shards that can cut through Blastaar's skin

2) Sue cuts a giant submarine into pieces with casual ease

3) Sue rips Doom's armor apart on a molecular level

Sue stomps Thing, She Hulk, Absorbing Man and Titania (All these characters are around the 100 ton strength class)

- Sue lashes out at a group of Avengers (note. This is also a great showing of Sue's ability to multitask)

http://imgur.com/gallary/91wnZN9

*Reaction Speed

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

- 1) Sue erects a force field before Quicksilver can speedblits her (note. The writer also mentions it's like breathing for Sue to create force fields)

- 2) Sue protects the Avengers from an explosion in less than a mili-second

- 3) Sue reacts to a gamma bomb

#Battle Strategy:

- Think it's save to assume that your characters won't break through the combined force fields of Sue and Psylocke.

- Firestorm also have no way of detecting Sue if she is invisible or to dodge her attacks since they are invisible.

- Sue has no morals when it comes to robots, so she can possibly eliminate Red Tornado instantly by ripping him apart, similar to this

No Caption Provided

As soon as Sue found out that she was fighting a robot she ripped it apart

And since Firestorm is a human Sue will use her go to move by locking him in a force field until he suffocates and if he doesn't need air both ladies can unleash a string of invisible force and telekinetic attacks to eventually KO him.

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@marveld2: @scarlet_wiccan: Just updating you guys, I've finished the first half (roughly) of my response. Expect it completed within the next couple of days.

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#20  Edited By Hellespont

Round One: Counters & Analyses

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Guys, we have an epic debate on our hands! I must say, I am impressed by both of your openers, they are very well crafted... Though not without their flaws, which I will be highlighting here. So that said, watch out, I'm not pulling any punches this round.

I. Psylocke Counters

Sue maybe a class cannon but Psylocke she's capable of enhancing her physicals to the level of classic Rouge (OT : She can tank a few attacks without her shield)

For the voters convenience this is feat that you are using to claim Psylocke is capable of matching Rogue in all physical stats:

No Caption Provided

Yet they don't even make physical contact here... In fact, Psy clearly states she is circumventing Rogue's physical strength with her telekinesis. In no way does this indicate that all of Rogue's stats somehow transfer to Psylocke.

For example, Wolverine has been able to hang with the Hulk, due to his unique power-set. Does this mean that all of Hulk's strength and durability feats transfer to Wolverine? Of course not.

This is terribly poor logic and certainly doesn't demonstrate Psylocke's durability at all.

Yes Psylocke is a very formidable H2h fighter (She stalemated Wolverine/Daredevil and Sabertooth) I will post the scans later in my second post but She's also capable of attacking at range

Nice, but having the skill to stalemate street levelers won't help much against Team D.C.'s heavyweights.

But both of my team shields work of the speed of thought, so I don't think your team will land a blow without breaking their shields first

Hypersonic speeds >>>>>> Speed of thought. In fact, we can do some basic calculations to prove this. To start, here's the approximate speed of thought:

No Caption Provided

One tenth of a second. Let's assume that Psylocke, being a peak human has 10 times the processing speed (which is a gross overestimation, but I am being generous too you in case you doubt my calculations). This means she could activate her shields in a 100th of a second.

Now, at mach 20, you can cover 7,500 yards in a single second, or 75 yards in a 100th of a second. Meaning we can get within striking distance before your mental faculties could respond at all.

No Caption Provided

And this is all assuming we are moving at mach 20. Red Tornado is many times faster and Firestorm can move at light speed, which is mach 874,030........

II. Invisible Woman Counters

- Sue can become fully or partially invisible by mentally bending the light waves around her, she can also make anyone or anything in her vicinity invisible.

Anticipated invisibility of course. See Red Tornado, being an android, has sensors that allow him to detect things beyond his eyesight. These sensors are so precise that he can detect CO2 expelled from a humans lungs 12 meters away, electrical impulses from a heart at 20 meters, etc. Thus he could certainly detect Invisible Woman by the same means:

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And Firestorm has Superman levels of vision (perhaps even superior). He can see into elements, viewing their chemical makeup and molecular structures. He can see into microscopic dimensions. And most relevantly he can see invisible enemies:

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- Sue's force field prevents Sersi from directly effecting her with her matter manipulation

Sue being immune to matter manipulation when inside a force field isn't relevant here since we specified in the rules that Firestorm is not allowed to transmute your team directly anyways.

- Sue's force field itself has no true molecular structure thus it can't be effected by matter manipulation

This would be a solid feat if you weren't going up against a manipulator as proficient as Firestorm... See Firestorm has highly precise control over both matter AND energy. He can convert energy to matter, matter to energy, etc. He can and has used transmutation on radiation, energy, and light. All of which don't have molecular structures. And all of which are the exact components of Invisible Woman's shields:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Turns light into gamma and radiation into water.

And if you have more feats to substantiate your shields can't be manipulated, Firestorm can transmute the air around your force field into titanium, trapping Sue inside and incapacitating her. This tactic has worked against opponents as strong as the new god Orion:

No Caption Provided

Or Red Tornado could attack her via the air inside her force field. As long as air exists, he can create a tornado. His personal sized tornadoes are incredibly powerful, even when created from at a distance. For example, a has formed a tornado around Despero, which momentarily restrained him.

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Remember Despero is a JLA buster with strength in far excess of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. A tornado of this nature spontaneously created inside your shields should easily incapacitate.

- Sue's force field renders the intangible Red Ghost tangible

A bit of a misleading scan. Your scan shows I.W. casting a force field around Red Ghost who is intangible, and once he is inside he becomes tangible. This DOES NOT mean that her force fields can keep out things that are intangible... Such as Firestorm, who can phase:

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It doesn't matter if her shields render him tangible once he's inside... Because the whole point is he's already inside...

- Sue can will her force field to prevent air from passing through

Solid attempt at keeping Red Tornado out, however, Sue can only keep this up for a couple minutes at a time, or else she will obviously suffocate. As soon as she allows air into her shields, she exposes herself to attack.

- 1) Sue erects a force field before Quicksilver can speedblits her (note. The writer also mentions it's like breathing for Sue to create force fields)

- 2) Sue protects the Avengers from an explosion in less than a mili-second

- 3) Sue reacts to a gamma bomb

1. Not very impressive, Sue is capable of seeing Quicksilver coming, see his trajectory, and think multiple sentences before he reaches her. Team D.C. is significantly faster. I have already shown how they are faster than thought.

2. You either misread this scan or are being terribly intellectually dishonest. The scan states the following "could any living being caught in the epicenter of the blast survive for more than a fraction of a millisecond... Almost certainly not." That is the only reference to milliseconds in the image. It is clearly referencing the power of the explosion, that nothing alive could survive for a millisecond. It has nothing at all to do with how quickly Invisible Woman put up her shield. Thus it isn't a speed feat. Here's the scan for the voters sake:

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3. I don't think this can be counted a speed feat considering the part where she actually reacts to the explosion isn't in the scan you posted.

- Sue has no morals when it comes to robots, so she can possibly eliminate Red Tornado instantly by ripping him apart, similar to this

I am not sure she would deduce he is robotic. He has sentience, talks like a human, and doesn't look too far off from random alien species which Sue encounters regularly. Though even if she did discover it, she would likely also realize he is sentient, has a soul, etc. And wouldn't opt for a kill. For example, I doubt she will instantly kill Vision (who she is familiar with from her home universe).

Either way, getting torn apart is irrelevant to Red Tornado given his cybernetic healing factor:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  1. Regenerates a whole half of his body after being blasted.
  2. Reforms from torn apart pieces of his body.

And since Firestorm is a human Sue will use her go to move by locking him in a force field until he suffocates and if he doesn't need air both ladies can unleash a string of invisible force and telekinetic attacks to eventually KO him.

He doesn't need to breathe. I've already shown him flying to the moon. He's also flown to the sun, deep space, etc. And we can discuss why you won't be KOing anyone below.

III. Battle Analyses

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Offensively

The most in character tactic for my team is fortunately a highly effective one. Keep the fight at range, utilize speed to evade, and rain down attacks until the enemy is defeated. It is entirely possible that a low power fusion blast or tornado gust is employed before your team can react and ends the fight early, however we all know that is on the table, so I will proceed on the off chance you manage to get your force fields active.

Once your force fields are active, I have already mentioned a plethora of ways my team can utilize it's unique and versatile powers to deal with it.

  1. Red Tornado can create a mini tornado / gust inside of your shields, knocking you out.
  2. Firestorm can transmute your shields into another form of energy or radiation.
  3. We can wear down your shields given our immense raw power output.

The former I have discussed at length above, however I would like to quickly touch upon point 3. The raw power we are packing should be more than sufficient to wear down your shields given ample time. Particularly on Firestorm's end:

Mini Firestorm damage output respect thread:

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One shots a significantly amped Kalibak (a new god). Who earlier in the chapter (Firestorm #35) casually one-shot Orion.

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One-shots a group of supervillains. Among the group is the powerhouse Black Adam.

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One-shots an evil form of Red-Tornado's wind deity (ironically), who was stomping the entire Justice League briefly prior.

Firestorm can spam blasts of this magnitude from a safe distance all day long. Eventually, with the help of Red Tornado's also potent attacks, they will break through. At which point you will be one-shot.... If you want to argue whether or not you will be one-shot, I will refer to the above, where Firestorm has easily KO'd characters with unarguably superior durability to both Psylocke and Sue combined.

Defensively

Simply put, you can't tag us if we don't want you too. Our speed and maneuverability is too great for you to track without better speed feats than what you have provided. And even if you do manage to connect a stray attack or two, we have significant durability. Just for good measure, here are some feats to substantiate this:

No Caption Provided

Cyborg is incapable of harming a brainwashed Red Tornado at all, despite the good inside Red Tornado creating openings for Vic to attack and telling Vic to use his full power.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Firestorm takes a prolonged beating from the amped Kalibak I referenced earlier. Remember, that earlier in this issue (Firestorm 35) Kalibak was so amped that he was one-shotting Superman level beings such as Orion. Yet Firestorm takes his best hits, maneuvers around him, and ends up unleashing his full power and on hit KO's him (as shown in my mini Firestorm respect thread above).

Therefore, I can't foresee any attacks brought out by team Marvel being capable of taking down team DC, if they can even connect at all.

IV. Closing Thoughts

In closing, we have the versatility to bypass your defenses, the durability to tank your hits, the raw power to put you down, and speed to either blitz or evade. A winning combination.

@marveld2 Your move bro. Good luck, you'll need it ;).

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@geekryan - TAEP

@marveld2@scarlet_wiccan It's up guys! BTW, I will be editting for grammatical issues and possible scans not uploading right etc. tomorrow. But the contents of the post will remain the same, so feel free to begin formulating your posts now.

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Counters :

No Caption Provided

Yet they don't even make physical contact here... In fact, Psy clearly states she is circumventing Rogue's physical strength with her telekinesis. In no way does this indicate that all of Rogue's stats somehow transfer to Psylocke.

For example, Wolverine has been able to hang with the Hulk, due to his unique power-set. Does this mean that all of Hulk's strength and durability feats transfer to Wolverine? Of course not.

This is terribly poor logic and certainly doesn't demonstrate Psylocke's durability at all.

No Caption Provided

We can clearly see here that she matches Rogue's every blow and proseeds to stagger her with a blow (Please don't compare Psylocke to Wolverine)

Hypersonic speeds >>>>>> Speed of thought. In fact, we can do some basic calculations to prove this. To start, here's the approximate speed of thought:

One tenth of a second. Let's assume that Psylocke, being a peak human has 10 times the processing speed (which is a gross overestimation, but I am being generous too you in case you doubt my calculations). This means she could activate her shields in a 100th of a second.

Now, at mach 20, you can cover 7,500 yards in a single second, or 75 yards in a 100th of a second. Meaning we can get within striking distance before your mental faculties could respond at all.

No Caption Provided

The first speach bubble states that her powers work at the speed of thought and it moves at the speed of light. So for her concept and execution are effectively one

The second one states that the movement she registered, the blast before her conscious was even aware of the threat, she was already moving to escape it

Here's a few other speed feats :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

(1) Here she reacts to both Rouge and Colossus (Note Rouge was trying to speed blizt her)

(3) She reacts form instinct not though

(2/4/5) Here she speed bliztes Magneto before he could react (Mags has some crazy reaction Feats)

The feats I posted should be enough to prove that she can react and attack both of you're characters

  1. Red Tornado can create a mini tornado / gust inside of your shields, knocking you out.
  2. Firestorm can transmute your shields into another form of energy or radiation.
  3. We can wear down your shields given our immense raw power output.

(1) Here we see Psylocke making a bubble around her head to breathe under water :

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(2) Psylocke is can control matter and molecules as well :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • She's capable of rebluding a human body only with molecules
  • She can affect her molecular state to turn invisible
  • She can also compress bullets to a denser object

(3) I highly doubt that considering that Psylocke blocked attacks form Maker/Merlyn (Both high powered and consider Gods) and she's capable of tanking the weight of a planet (Feats I already showed in my opener)

No Caption Provided

Therefore, I can't foresee any attacks brought out by team Marvel being capable of taking down team DC, if they can even connect at all.

OK but you haven't shown any piercing durability for both your characters considering that both our characters like to create force/Telekinetic blades that's able to match Wolverine's claws (While sue can use her blades on a molecular level)

Conclusion (2) :

Still not sure that Both of you're characters can pierce our force shields and both of our characters have the offence to hurt your characters badly (Especially Red)

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#24  Edited By Scarlet_Wiccan

Counters:

No Caption Provided

Sue being immune to matter manipulation when inside a force field isn't relevant here since we specified in the rules that Firestorm is not allowed to transmute your team directly anyways.

- Since I've seen an instance or two where Firestorm can transform the air around his opponents (the air inside Sue's force field) this is actually quite relevant.

This would be a solid feat if you weren't going up against a manipulator as proficient as Firestorm... See Firestorm has highly precise control over both matter AND energy. He can convert energy to matter, matter to energy, etc. He can and has used transmutation on radiation, energy, and light. All of which don't have molecular structures. And all of which are the exact components of Invisible Woman's shields:

- Sue's shields have nothing to do with light (they're invisible that's it) or radiation, she manipulates an unidentified type of energy from Hyperspace so Firestorm transmuting light and radiation can't be used to proof that he can effect Sue's force field directly.

And if you have more feats to substantiate your shields can't be manipulated, Firestorm can transmute the air around your force field into titanium, trapping Sue inside and incapacitating her. This tactic has worked against opponents as strong as the new god Orion:

- I posted a scan where Sue expands a force field inside the wall of a Watcher's dome so she'll easily break titanium especially since Orion didn't have leverage to move and break free.

Or Red Tornado could attack her via the air inside her force field. As long as air exists, he can create a tornado. His personal sized tornadoes are incredibly powerful, even when created from at a distance. For example, a has formed a tornado around Despero, which momentarily restrained him.

- Sue has blocked telekinises and telepathy (both are not physical attacks) with her force field so I don't think Red Tornado can manipulate air past her force field unless you can prove otherwise.

A bit of a misleading scan. Your scan shows I.W. casting a force field around Red Ghost who is intangible, and once he is inside he becomes tangible. This DOES NOT mean that her force fields can keep out things that are intangible... Such as Firestorm, who can phase:

I fail to see how this is misleading since I only used this scan to prove that Sue's force field can keep Firestorm inside and prevents him from phasing through the field if she contains him.

Solid attempt at keeping Red Tornado out, however, Sue can only keep this up for a couple minutes at a time, or else she will obviously suffocate. As soon as she allows air into her shields, she exposes herself to attack.

- Like I said in my previous post Sue or Psylocke will remove Red Tornado from this battle if they realise that he's a robot since I just assumed each side gets full knowledge on their opposition because if your team doesn't get knowledge on Sue's capabilities they'll get caught ofgaurd by her INVISIBLE attacks.

1. Not very impressive, Sue is capable of seeing Quicksilver coming, see his trajectory, and think multiple sentences before he reaches her. Team D.C. is significantly faster. I have already shown how they are faster than thought.

Quicksilver was fighting Thing before attempting to attack Sue that's why she was able to think a single sentence before he reaches her (I would post the full scan but we're not allowed to) and the writer clearly states that it's as instinctive as breathing for Sue to create force fields, so it's a damn impressive showing.

You either misread this scan or are being terribly intellectually dishonest. The scan states the following "could any living being caught in the epicenter of the blast survive for more than a fraction of a millisecond... Almost certainly not." That is the only reference to milliseconds in the image. It is clearly referencing the power of the explosion, that nothing alive could survive for a millisecond. It has nothing at all to do with how quickly Invisible Woman put up her shield. Thus it isn't a speed feat. Here's the scan for the voters sake

"Ouch" Lol This scan was merely meant to be a defensive feat for Sue's force field so I am sorry I haven't read the Avengers comic it's from.

3. I don't think this can be counted a speed feat considering the part where she actually reacts to the explosion isn't in the scan you posted

The comic issue opens with Sue already containing the explosion, so you're kinda right.

I am not sure she would deduce he is robotic. He has sentience, talks like a human, and doesn't look too far off from random alien species which Sue encounters regularly. Though even if she did discover it, she would likely also realize he is sentient, has a soul, etc. And wouldn't opt for a kill. For example, I doubt she will instantly kill Vision (who she is familiar with from her home universe).

Either way, getting torn apart is irrelevant to Red Tornado given his cybernetic healing factor:

Again I just assumed teams receive full knowledge on their opposition and don't pretend that Sue is a 24/7 sweetheart, she is willing to fight in this battle and can be surprisingly savage at times especially when her life or anyone else's lives are in danger (Like when Thing was evil and attacked her, she almost killed him) and Sue actually knows Vision and not Red Tornado.

If Red Tornado repairs once Sue can rip him apart again and keep his pieces in force fields or Psylocke can telekineticaly prevent him from healing

The most in character tactic for my team is fortunately a highly effective one. Keep the fight at range, utilize speed to evade, and rain down attacks until the enemy is defeated. It is entirely possible that a low power fusion blast or tornado gust is employed before your team can react and ends the fight early, however we all know that is on the table, so I will proceed on the off chance you manage to get your force fields active.

I don't see how either of your characters can react to invisible attacks that they're not expecting or if Sue traps them both in force fields she can crush Red Tornado and she'll eventually realise Firestorm doesn't need air to breathe and try and KO him in a different fashion or Psylocke can disrupt his nervous system with her telekinetic weapons once Sue has pinned him down (Sue has tagged Human Torch multiple times and she was able to react to Silver Surfer's attack so she will catch both your characters with her force fields especially since they don't know what to expect from Sue)

  1. Red Tornado can create a mini tornado / gust inside of your shields, knocking you out.
  2. Firestorm can transmute your shields into another form of energy or radiation.

I've already debunked these attempts.

  1. We can wear down your shields given our immense raw power output.

It's going to be very hard to break through Sue's force fields alone since they have blocked attacks from Galactus, Celestials, Annihilus, Terrax, ect add Psylocke's force field and it's almost impossible to get through and by the time Sue begins to strain your team will be long KO'ed.

Simply put, you can't tag us if we don't want you too. Our speed and maneuverability is too great for you to track without better speed feats than what you have provided. And even if you do manage to connect a stray attack or two, we have significant durability. Just for good measure, here are some feats to substantiate this:

Again Sue will likely start by trapping both your characters in force fields so tagging them is out of the question and your characters aren't in a constant state of light speed or hyper sonic speed and again Sue doesn't need to tag your characters she'll just simply contain them like she's done to Human Torch and a few other characters before and your team isn't aware of Sue's powers

Therefore, I can't foresee any attacks brought out by team Marvel being capable of taking down team DC, if they can even connect at all.

Unless you're scaling all the way to Superman I honestly think Red Tornado could be destroyed by Sue who can stomp 100 tonners and Sue can create atom-thin force blades (meaning it cuts through molecules) to KO Red Tornado and like I said Firestorm can easily be KO'ed by Psylocke's tk weapons since they disrupt your nervous system.

Before I conclude I just want to make sure you're not scaling in anyway because I know how scaling in DC characters eventually leads to Superman pulling a whole solar system or Wonder Woman being faster than Flash's top speed, ect.

Conclusion

- Sue can and will likely begin the battle by trapping your characters in bubbles and proceed to take them down from there since she does this so much in the comics and your characters better KO Sue first because if your team manages to KO Psylocke first, Sue looses her morals and crushes or explodes them.

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@marveld2: @scarlet_wiccan: Update, just completed my response, but I am currently skimming through my comics in search of two specific scans. I know they exist but I can't remember the issue numbers for the life of me. Once I locate them (likely tomorrow), i'll post.

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Red Tornado omggggg

T4V

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#30  Edited By Hellespont

Round Two: Objections

No Caption Provided

To be frank, there is quite a bit you guys missed or failed to touch on here. Thus, once again there is countering to be done and objections to be made. So let's not waste any more time...

I. Psylocke Counters

We can clearly see here that she matches Rogue's every blow and proseeds to stagger her with a blow (Please don't compare Psylocke to Wolverine)

Your missing the point entirely. You attempted to use this as a durability feat. Blocking a punch and staggering an opponent in a fight, doesn't mean that you have equal stats across the board to said opponent. Which is what you attempted to claim in your post. This is fallacious ABC logic.

But either way, even if you can somehow scale to Rogue, your durability would still be severely lacking. Remember, I have shown Firestorm one-shotting Black Adam, a new god, and a JLA buster, all of whom dwarf Rogue in durability.

The first speach bubble states that her powers work at the speed of thought and it moves at the speed of light. So for her concept and execution are effectively one

I suppose I can't argue with that, even though it contradicts how the actual speed of thought works.

However, being able to activate her shields still doesn't support that she can track my teams movements, keep up in combat, land attacks, etc.

Here's a few other speed feats :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

(1) Here she reacts to both Rouge and Colossus (Note Rouge was trying to speed blizt her)

(3) She reacts form instinct not though

(2/4/5) Here she speed bliztes Magneto before he could react (Mags has some crazy reaction Feats)

The feats I posted should be enough to prove that she can react and attack both of you're characters

Did you read these scans before you posted them?

Scan 1: Psylocke doesn't evade an attack from Rogue. She evades an attack from Colossus who doesn't have super-speed. Psy uses telepathy to make Rogue blitz an illusion while she stands still and watches. This isn't a speed feat, it is a telepathy feat, and your telepathy is disabled in this debate.

Here's the portion of your own scans that proves my point:

No Caption Provided

Scan 3: Reacting on instinct rather than thought isn't hugely impressive since her instincts only needed to be fast enough to block Sabertooth. Sabertooth is a street-leveler who's speed is abysmal compared to Firestorm or Red Tornado's.

Scans 2, 4, and 5: You have a generous definition of the word blitz if you consider these blitzes. In scan 2, Magneto clearly see's her coming, she just uses acrobatics to land a single shot. In scan 4, she lands an attack without context (it's difficult to read the scans due to the blurriness).

And scan 5 I don't understand why you posted... It debunks your entire statement that Psylocke is too fast for Magneto to react to.... Because image 5 is nothing but Magneto reacting to every one of Psylocke's attacks and casually countering it. Here's panels from your own scans:

Magneto sees Psy coming a sends her flying backwards.
Magneto sees Psy coming a sends her flying backwards.
Magneto reacts to Psy's attack, destroys her sword, and sends her flying backwards.
Magneto reacts to Psy's attack, destroys her sword, and sends her flying backwards.

(1) Here we see Psylocke making a bubble around her head to breathe under water :

You misinterpreted my point. You seem to think I am saying that Red Tornado will suck the air out of your force fields to suffocate you. This is not what I said or was referring to.

I am saying that Red Tornado will use the air inside your force fields to create a personal sized tornado within your shields, KOing you. All you proved with that scan is that your shields do in fact have air in them, which benefits my case.

(2) Psylocke is can control matter and molecules as well :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • She's capable of rebluding a human body only with molecules
  • She can affect her molecular state to turn invisible
  • She can also compress bullets to a denser object

My friend... You don't want to start comparing transmutation feats with Firestorm... He is the superior matter manipulator by many orders of magnitude:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
  • Scan 1: Transmutes Multiplex clones (humans) into water vapor.
  • Scan 2: Removes Killer Frost's powers by rewriting her metahuman genome.
  • Scan 3: Transmutes the entire Eiffel Tower into rose petals.
  • Scan 4: Transmutes a giant rocket into a Rubix Cube.
  • Scan 5: Transmutes every inorganic part of a giant alien cyborg, leaving all the organic parts still alive.
  • Scan 6: Transmutes millions of individual microscopic nanites into water.

Your going to need significantly better feats to claim that your matter manipulation can go head to head with Firestorm's.

(3) I highly doubt that considering that Psylocke blocked attacks form Maker/Merlyn (Both high powered and consider Gods) and she's capable of tanking the weight of a planet (Feats I already showed in my opener)

Psylocke is a martial artist / swordsmen. I highly doubt she is going to sit idly behind her force fields like you insinuate. She is going to want to brawl like she did in your own scan against Rogue. And she will be one-shot.

Even if she does camp out behind her shields, you still suffer from the same problems Invisible Woman does. In fact, even more. You have no feats against getting your shields drained / manipulated by Firestorm. No feats blocking out transmutation. No feats to stop an aerokinetic attack. No feats against phasing. etc. etc.

II. Invisible Woman Counters

- Sue's shields have nothing to do with light (they're invisible that's it) or radiation, she manipulates an unidentified type of energy from Hyperspace so Firestorm transmuting light and radiation can't be used to proof that he can effect Sue's force field directly.

I don't see why being from Hyperspace makes her force field different than regular energy, light, or radiation. However, if you want to get technical about it that's fine. Let's get technical.

In the Marvel universe, Hyperspace is noted to be an extra-dimensional place that can be entered by beings moving at speeds greater than the speed of light or manipulated by energy manipulators of sufficient power. In fact, Marvel's Hyperspace wiki page states that wielders of forces such as the power-cosmic or Mjolnir can tap into Hyperspace.

Considering Firestorm can both exceed the speed of light and is at least on par with heralds and Thor in energy manipulation, there is no reason he couldn't disrupt Invisible Woman's shields. Here is some further evidence of his energy-based prowess:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Absorbs all the energy from a nuclear bomb at ground zero.
  • Scan 2: Is such a proficient energy-manipulator that Parasite (the guy who regularly drains Superman's powers) cannot affect Firestorm at all.
  • Scan 3: Matches the power of Captain Atom's quantum energy.
  • Scan 4: Both Captain Atom and Firestorm absorb as much of the energy from their collision as possible. Firestorm ends up completely fine, whereas Atom absorbs so much energy that he is overloaded and his body explodes, dispersing across space-time.

And possibly most relevantly...

No Caption Provided

Firestorm redirects Darkseid's Omega Beams back at him. I have never seen Darkseid's Omega Beams getting affected in this way, yet Firestorm does it on the fly and with ease. What is particularly noteworthy is that the Omega Beams are extra-dimensional energy of incredibly high power..... Just like Sue's shields.

- I posted a scan where Sue expands a force field inside the wall of a Watcher's dome so she'll easily break titanium especially since Orion didn't have leverage to move and break free.

Perhaps she could escape, however seeing as it took Orion (who has comparable strength to Superman) multiple pages to escape, this could at least remove her from the fight momentarily, allowing my team to takeout Psylocke.

- Sue has blocked telekinises and telepathy (both are not physical attacks) with her force field so I don't think Red Tornado can manipulate air past her force field unless you can prove otherwise.

Red's aerokinesis is spiritual in nature. Pretty different than the psionic powers at play with TK and TP. Just because you have resistance to certain non-physical attacks doesn't mean you have resistance to all of them, unless you have specific feats.

I fail to see how this is misleading since I only used this scan to prove that Sue's force field can keep Firestorm inside and prevents him from phasing through the field if she contains him.

Here you are admitting your only scans countering intangibility, are scans that can turn Firestorm tangible once he is already trapped inside your shields. Thus preventing him from escaping once inside.... However, you have given no feats thus far supporting that your shields can keep Firestorm from phasing outside your shields to inside. This admission, in many ways, seals your fate. Without anti-phasing feats from the outside, nothing is stopping Firestorm from phasing into your defenses and one-shotting.

And as far as your containment strategy goes, Firestorm can teleport via worm holes, so he can simply teleport out.

No Caption Provided

This could also serve as yet another tactic against Invisible Woman... Opening a portal to teleport her out of her shields or teleporting my team inside her shields.

- Like I said in my previous post Sue or Psylocke will remove Red Tornado from this battle if they realise that he's a robot since I just assumed each side gets full knowledge on their opposition because if your team doesn't get knowledge on Sue's capabilities they'll get caught ofgaurd by her INVISIBLE attacks.

Here you are just restating arguments I explicitly countered..........

  1. Red Tornado has a healing factor capable of reforming half his body and rebuilding from scrap parts. Your tactics won't put him down.
  2. What??? Why would you assume you have full knowledge on my team? We never specified that and it isn't standard for battle forum debates or CaVs.
  3. My team can see invisible things... I already posted the scans, but you conveniently disregarded them in your post.

Quicksilver was fighting Thing before attempting to attack Sue that's why she was able to think a single sentence before he reaches her (I would post the full scan but we're not allowed to) and the writer clearly states that it's as instinctive as breathing for Sue to create force fields, so it's a damn impressive showing.

Can you post just the first half? It's difficult to just take your word for it in a debate/ analysis setting. Especially considering you have admitted to posting feats without reading the issues they come from.

"Ouch" Lol This scan was merely meant to be a defensive feat for Sue's force field so I am sorry I haven't read the Avengers comic it's from.

But you posted it in the speed section of your post..... And used it to claim you can keep up with the light speed members of my team........... I would recommend reading the issues before posting feats, it would have avoided the numerous contextual issues both you and your teammate have had in this debate.

The comic issue opens with Sue already containing the explosion, so you're kinda right.

So it's not a speed feat... Despite being posted in the speed section of your opener... Cool. Helps my case I guess.

Again I just assumed teams receive full knowledge on their opposition and don't pretend that Sue is a 24/7 sweetheart, she is willing to fight in this battle and can be surprisingly savage at times especially when her life or anyone else's lives are in danger (Like when Thing was evil and attacked her, she almost killed him) and Sue actually knows Vision and not Red Tornado.

Again, I have no clue why you would assume you have full knowledge..... But even if you did, it would actually work against your argument, because Red Tornado is a living soul trapped in an android. He is a hero, a good man, has a family, etc. Thus with full knowledge it is actually much LESS likely that Invisible Woman would open with a kill shot.

I also never insinuated Sue was a "sweetheart", I just stated she has morals. My team also has morals. Thus I don't think either are opting for kill shots right out the gate, like you claim.

If Red Tornado repairs once Sue can rip him apart again and keep his pieces in force fields or Psylocke can telekineticaly prevent him from healing

If Red got ripped apart once, he would use his flight and super speed to get out of your line of sight. Remember he can travel thousands of miles per second, he is too fast for you track at full speed.

I don't see how either of your characters can react to invisible attacks that they're not expecting or if Sue traps them both in force fields she can crush Red Tornado and she'll eventually realise Firestorm doesn't need air to breathe and try and KO him in a different fashion or Psylocke can disrupt his nervous system with her telekinetic weapons once Sue has pinned him down (Sue has tagged Human Torch multiple times and she was able to react to Silver Surfer's attack so she will catch both your characters with her force fields especially since they don't know what to expect from Sue)

Again..... We can see invisible objects and people. I already posted the the scans. I don't know why you are ignoring them...

As for trapping, I already refuted this. Firestorm can teleport himself and Red-T.

It's going to be very hard to break through Sue's force fields alone since they have blocked attacks from Galactus, Celestials, Annihilus, Terrax, ect add Psylocke's force field and it's almost impossible to get through and by the time Sue begins to strain your team will be long KO'ed.

She has blocked single attacks, yes. But a prolonged salvo from multiple opponents, multiple angles, over a long period? I am not sure. Plus if she is straining on the defensive end, that means she isn't focused on offense, which benefits my case.

Either way, this is just a contingency. Firestorm should be able to manipulate Sue's shields.

Again Sue will likely start by trapping both your characters in force fields so tagging them is out of the question and your characters aren't in a constant state of light speed or hyper sonic speed and again Sue doesn't need to tag your characters she'll just simply contain them like she's done to Human Torch and a few other characters before and your team isn't aware of Sue's powers

Again. Teleportation.

And what? She can't create shields around or attack something that is moving so fast she can't track it. I know we won't be going full speed the entire battle, but the point remains that it is on the table. If my team doesn't want to be hit, they won't be hit.

Unless you're scaling all the way to Superman

Scaling to Superman? What?... My only reference to Superman was to give context to how powerful the new gods are when Firestorm stomped one of them.

And Firestorm is considered by many (including myself) to be more powerful than Superman on many fronts. Notaling, but by his solid feats.

I honestly think Red Tornado could be destroyed by Sue who can stomp 100 tonners and Sue can create atom-thin force blades (meaning it cuts through molecules) to KO Red Tornado

I never stated that Red could tank all of her hits or anything of the sort. I stated that when Sue deals significant damage, he has a potent healing factor to recuperate. Though, as previously covered, I doubt she is going to open with atom-cutting blades, because that is horribly out of character.

and like I said Firestorm can easily be KO'ed by Psylocke's tk weapons since they disrupt your nervous system.

Firestorm actually doesn't have a nervous system, in fact, his entire body is just a physical projection of his thoughts and the Firestorm matrix. His appearance, biology, etc. are all malleable and can change with a single thought.

For example, Dr. Martin Stein (D.C. scientist and resident of the Firestorm matrix) has stated that the only reason that Firestorm's biology is partly fire, is because Ronnie thinks it looks cool.

Before I conclude I just want to make sure you're not scaling in anyway because I know how scaling in DC characters eventually leads to Superman pulling a whole solar system or Wonder Woman being faster than Flash's top speed, ect.

Honestly, I have no idea what your on about here... I have only mentioned Superman in passing. Other than that, I have only referenced other characters to provide context.

Ironically the only one "scaling" here is your teammate, who has attempted to use ABC logic to equate Rogue's physical feats to Psylocke.

III. Summary Thus Far

Your plan fails because:

  • It is built on the false pretenses that your team have full knowledge on mine and that your team will act way out of character.
  • Your strategy is contingent on ignoring many scans I have already laid out, such as being able to detect invisibility, Red's healing factor, Firestorm's lack of nervous system or need to breath, etc.

My plan succeeds because:

  • We can bypass your shields via energy manipulation, phasing, teleportation, aerokinesis, etc.
  • We can one-shot your characters.
  • We are too fast to tag, and have the durability to tank hits if we are tagged.

No Caption Provided

Your move guys.

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No Caption Provided

Your missing the point entirely. You attempted to use this as a durability feat. Blocking a punch and staggering an opponent in a fight, doesn't mean that you have equal stats across the board to said opponent. Which is what you attempted to claim in your post. This is fallacious ABC logic.

But either way, even if you can somehow scale to Rogue, your durability would still be severely lacking. Remember, I have shown Firestorm one-shotting Black Adam, a new god, and a JLA buster, all of whom dwarf Rogue in durability.

I just to make something clear I quote myself

capable of enhancing her physicals almost to the level of classic Rouge

Rouge even stated in the scan that she's supposed to be faster and stronger and what happens if someone matches blows with a other blow (It's a combination of strength and Durability) Psylocke even states that her telekinesis is her will and imagination (Sorry if I meant that Psylocke has durability of rouge I didn't mean it like that lol because obviously if I was it's false then)

Psylocke doesn't evade an attack from Rogue. She evades an attack from Colossus who doesn't have super-speed. Psy uses telepathy to make Rogue blitz an illusion while she stands still and watches. This isn't a speed feat, it is a telepathy feat, and your telepathy is disabled in this debate

I posted the scan to show how fast she can use her powers ?

Scans 2, 4, and 5: You have a generous definition of the word blitz if you consider these blitzes. In scan 2, Magneto clearly see's her coming, she just uses acrobatics to land a single shot. In scan 4, she lands an attack without context (it's difficult to read the scans due to the blurriness).

And scan 5 I don't understand why you posted... It debunks your entire statement that Psylocke is too fast for Magneto to react to.... Because image 5 is nothing but Magneto reacting to every one of Psylocke's attacks and casually countering it.Here's panels from your own scans:

Sorry the order iwas messed up :

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Here the right order and you can clearly see Psylocke Blizt magnto with her Psy katana and stabs him

You misinterpreted my point. You seem to think I am saying that Red Tornado will suck the air out of your force fields to suffocate you. This is not what I said or was referring to.l

I am saying that Red Tornado will use the air inside your force fields to create a personal sized tornado within your shields, KOing you. All you proved with that scan is that your shields do in fact have air in them, which benefits my case.

I posted then the scan to prove that Psylocke can make her shields air tight and that means Red torando can't control the air inside her force field

Your going to need significantly better feats to claim that your matter manipulation can go head to head with Firestorm's.

Once again I didn't mean that Psylocke is capable of matching firestorm in molecular abilities, I posted to show she has skill... (Once more Telekinetic energy is not a form of light or any time energy)

Psylocke is a martial artist / swordsmen. I highly doubt she is going to sit idly behind her force fields like you insinuate. She is going to want to brawl like she did in your own scan against Rogue. And she will be one-shot.

Even if she does camp out behind her shields, you still suffer from the same problems Invisible Woman does. In fact, even more. You have no feats against getting your shields drained / manipulated by Firestorm. No feats blocking out transmutation. No feats to stop an aerokinetic attack. No feats against phasing. etc. etc.

First of that was sparring with Rouge in the scan I posted and like said Psylocke shields is not a form of light and she's a psionic first...

Conclusion :

Your characters still doesn't have the offence to break through Psylocke or Sue's shields while they can hurt your characters without a doubt (I think most of post was misunderstanding my feats like the matching Rouge physicals ext...)

This is my final post it was challenging but great debate....

First of its not Psylocke anymore its Captain Britain
First of its not Psylocke anymore its Captain Britain

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#34  Edited By Scarlet_Wiccan

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I don't see why being from Hyperspace makes her force field different than regular energy, light, or radiation. However, if you want to get technical about it that's fine. Let's get technical.

In the Marvel universe, Hyperspace is noted to be an extra-dimensional place that can be entered by beings moving at speeds greater than the speed of light or manipulated by energy manipulators of sufficient power. In fact, Marvel's Hyperspace wiki page states that wielders of forces such as the power-cosmic or Mjolnir can tap into Hyperspace.

Considering Firestorm can both exceed the speed of light and is at least on par with heralds and Thor in energy manipulation, there is no reason he couldn't disrupt Invisible Woman's shields. Here is some further evidence of his energy-based prowess:

The fact that Molecule Man (Who can casually destroy Mjolnir and Silver Surfer's board with matter manipulation and he was considered a universal thread by the watchers only because of his matter manipulation even before his amps) can't effect Sue's force fields should be more than enough proof that Sue's force fields aren't made of simple energy, light or radiation.

The energy Sue manipulates is similar to Earth's gravity but it's solid so unless Firestorm can transmute "solid gravity" He's not directly effecting Sue's force field

Even if Firestorm is on par with Thor in energy manipulation doesn't mean he can tap into the forces of Hyperspace since you said it yourself the power cosmic or Mjolnir is required.

Firestorm exceeding the speed of light has nothing to do with energy Sue manipulates and makes solid in the physical plane of existence.

  • Absorbs all the energy from a nuclear bomb at ground zero.

This is a good absorbing feat for Firestorm but I fail to see how this can be used to prove that Firestorm can AFFECT Sue's field with his matter manipulation.

  • Scan 2: Is such a proficient energy-manipulator that Parasite (the guy who regularly drains Superman's powers) cannot affect Firestorm at all.

This would've been useful if Sue was trying to drain Firestorm's powers other than that it's not very useful in this battle.

  • Scan 3: Matches the power of Captain Atom's quantum energy.
  • Scan 4: Both Captain Atom and Firestorm absorb as much of the energy from their collision as possible. Firestorm ends up completely fine, whereas Atom absorbs so much energy that he is overloaded and his body explodes, dispersing across space-time.

This has nothing to do with Firestorm transmuting energy, he is absorbing it, there's a difference.

Firestorm redirects Darkseid's Omega Beams back at him. I have never seen Darkseid's Omega Beams getting affected in this way, yet Firestorm does it on the fly and with ease. What is particularly noteworthy is that the Omega Beams are extra-dimensional energy of incredibly high power..... Just like Sue's shields.

Seriously? Firestorm literally thinks to himself that he is using his atomic restructuring to create a funnel out of the ATOMS IN THE AIR to redirect Darkseid's beams so unless Sue is firing beams of energy at Firestorm this is of no use here.

Perhaps she could escape, however seeing as it took Orion (who has comparable strength to Superman) multiple pages to escape, this could at least remove her from the fight momentarily, allowing my team to takeout Psylocke.

Orion couldn't escape because he didn't have leverage and Sue doesn't need leverage to use her powers and you haven't posted scans that indicate that it took him multiple pages to escape and if that is truly titanium than it's clearly lowball for Orion.

Red's aerokinesis is spiritual in nature. Pretty different than the psionic powers at play with TK and TP. Just because you have resistance to certain non-physical attacks doesn't mean you have resistance to all of them, unless you have specific feats.

Sue's force field has momentarily survived inside an incursion that erases reality on impact so unless Red Tornado can use his aerokinises past a force field that has blocked half the stuff Sue's has we can't just assume he can bypass her field automatically and I've already shown you that Sue can make her force field airtight.

Here you are admitting your only scans countering intangibility, are scans that can turn Firestorm tangible once he is already trapped inside your shields. Thus preventing him from escaping once inside.... However, you have given no feats thus far supporting that your shields can keep Firestorm from phasing outside your shields to inside. This admission, in many ways, seals your fate. Without anti-phasing feats from the outside, nothing is stopping Firestorm from phasing into your defenses and one-shotting.

Sue doesn't need to keep Firestorm from phasing into her force field, since he'll be inside one as soon as the battle starts and.

And as far as your containment strategy goes, Firestorm can teleport via worm holes, so he can simply teleport out.

This could also serve as yet another tactic against Invisible Woman... Opening a portal to teleport her out of her shields or teleporting my team inside her shields.

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- If Sue has your characters in the holds she has Doom, Reed, Ben and Namor Firestorm won't be able to make wormholes and enter them unless Firestorm can teleport without making portals/wormholes.

  1. Red Tornado has a healing factor capable of reforming half his body and rebuilding from scrap parts. Your tactics won't put him down.

- Sue or Psylocke can rip his molecules apart and hold them separate.

  1. What??? Why would you assume you have full knowledge on my team? We never specified that and it isn't standard for battle forum debates or CaVs.

- This is my first CaV and I assumed you had full knowledge on my team since both your characters could expect and dodge psionic invisible attacks.

  1. My team can see invisible things... I already posted the scans, but you conveniently disregarded them in your post.

No, the scans you posted showed Red Tornado seeing an invisible person due to her breathing and heartbeats and Firestorm can see a foglet screen that makes people invisible, meaning your characters could locate Sue if she was invisible since she breathes and has a heart rate but Sue's powers doesn't exhale CO2 or doesn't have any heartbeats. Sue can naturally see invisible people but she can't see her own powers.

an you post just the first half? It's difficult to just take your word for it in a debate/ analysis setting. Especially considering you have admitted to posting feats without reading the issues they come from

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There you go, you can clearly see Quicksilver fighting Thing.

But you posted it in the speed section of your post..... And used it to claim you can keep up with the light speed members of my team........... I would recommend reading the issues before posting feats, it would have avoided the numerous contextual issues both you and your teammate have had in this debate.

And I would recommend you read the scans you post let alone the issues, first you tried to lie about Orion not being able to break out of the titanium because he wasn't strong enough but in the scan it clearly says he can't break out because he doesn't have any leverage and secondly trying to lie about Firestorm affecting Darkseid's beams but he's clearly making a funnel to redirect his beams it even says so in the scan and Firestorm exceeding the speed of light means he can affect Sue's ff, really? So if you're going to point out my mistakes or someone else's make sure you're side is clean.

And if this was a race I'd worry about Sue keeping up with your characters' speed because all Sue needs to do is catch you're characters that has no clue of what Sue's powers are.

I also never insinuated Sue was a "sweetheart", I just stated she has morals. My team also has morals. Thus I don't think either are opting for kill shots right out the gate, like you claim

It's a very common mistake that people make, assuming Sue can't and won't fight back but since this is a full out battle I really don't see why Sue can't attack first.

If Red got ripped apart once, he would use his flight and super speed to get out of your line of sight. Remember he can travel thousands of miles per second, he is too fast for you track at full speed.

You keep ignoring that Sue can and likely will lock your unsuspecting characters in place as soon as the battle starts since this is a morals on fight.

Again..... We can see invisible objects and people. I already posted the the scans. I don't know why you are ignoring them...

Again. your characters can see invisible people not Sue's invisible powers...

As for trapping, I already refuted this. Firestorm can teleport himself and Red-T.

Again. Neither Firestorm or Red Tornado won't be able to enter any wormholes once they are snared.

She has blocked single attacks, yes. But a prolonged salvo from multiple opponents, multiple angles, over a long period? I am not sure. Plus if she is straining on the defensive end, that means she isn't focused on offense, which benefits my case.

Sue has blocked attacks from multiple Celestials at the same time.

Either way, this is just a contingency. Firestorm should be able to manipulate Sue's shields.

You have yet to provide proof of Firestorm manipulating Sue's shields or any other similar type of energy and I am not counting radiation.

Again. Teleportation.

You haven't posted any scans that indicate your characters can teleport themselves instantly (wormholes are portals)

And what? She can't create shields around or attack something that is moving so fast she can't track it. I know we won't be going full speed the entire battle, but the point remains that it is on the table. If my team doesn't want to be hit, they won't be hit.

Look I've gone through this quite a few times already As soon as the battle starts Sue will restrain both your characters like the scans I used earlier and your characters won't be dodging anything since Sue will directly pin them down and remember this is in character, you said yourself your characters aren't in a constant state of exceeding light speed, they can dodge at that speed but with Sue's containment technique there's nothing to dodge.

Scaling to Superman? What?... My only reference to Superman was to give context to how powerful the new gods are when Firestorm stomped one of them.

It's hard to get an idea of how powerful someone is when they are only compared to Superman since Superman can move whole solar systems since you get viners that will say since Superman and Orion can trade blows means Orion can also move a solar system.

I never stated that Red could tank all of her hits or anything of the sort. I stated that when Sue deals significant damage, he has a potent healing factor to recuperate. Though, as previously covered, I doubt she is going to open with atom-cutting blades, because that is horribly out of character.

I never said Sue would open by cutting characters I used it to prove that if Sue tries to suffocate Red Tornado and she finds out that he's a robot she'll do what needs to be done in order to win since everyone is willing to fight.

Honestly, I have no idea what your on about here... I have only mentioned Superman in passing. Other than that, I have only referenced other characters to provide context.

I was merely using Superman and WW as examples.

Ironically the only one "scaling" here is your teammate, who has attempted to use ABC logic to equate Rogue's physical feats to Psylocke.

See you do know what I'm talking about how one can apply someone's entirety of feats to someone else by scaling.

For example, when you say Orion is Superman level do you mean he can replicate everything Superman has?

  • It is built on the false pretenses that your team have full knowledge on mine and that your team will act way out of character.

Wrong, I'm not using anything in my battle strategy that requires full knowledge on your characters and Sue restraining your characters are the most in-character thing in this battle, considering Firestorm and Red Tornado are 24/7 in a state of exceeding light speed, ironic isn't it.

Your strategy is contingent on ignoring many scans I have already laid out, such as being able to detect invisibility, Red's healing factor, Firestorm's lack of nervous system or need to breath, etc

  • Invisibility: Like I said I am fully aware of your characters being able to detect Sue herself but not her powers
  • Red Tornado' healing factor: You completely ignored that I said both Sue and Psylocke can keep him from healing in my second post
  • Firestorm's lack of nervous system: You said Firestorm didn't have a nervous system in your third post, so I couldn't have had time to ignore it.
  • Firestorm's doesn't need to breath: Since Sue doesn't know he doesn't breath air, she's try to suffocate him first.
  • We can bypass your shields via energy manipulation, phasing, teleportation, aerokinesis, etc.

- You have supplied no proof of Firestorm transmutating energy similar to Sue's ff, Firestorm can't phase out of Sue's force field and your characters can't teleport only create wormholes and I've already shown you Sue's force field can block out air...

Conclusion:

- It seems to me that you are completely ignoring my battle strategy and I've debunked every single one of your arguments so I find it quite ironic that you are accusing us of ignoring your scans.

As soon as the battle starts Sue will restrain both your characters like the scans I used earlier and your characters won't be dodging anything since Sue will directly pin them down and remember this is in character, you said yourself your characters aren't in a constant state of exceeding light speed, they can dodge at that speed but with Sue's containment technique there's nothing to dodge.

This is my battle strategy that I feel is how it will go down simply because Sue being in character will most definitely start the battle by restraining your characters and eventually KO them since all four characters are fully willing to fight and once Sue has your characters pinned they're really at the mercy of Sue and Psylocke and both your characters are highly durable but Sue and Psylocke can without a doubt work past that and eventually KO them.

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Scarlet_Wiccan

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@scarlet_wiccan: @marveld2: How on earth do you guys both post so fast...... LOL...

I have other CaVs to attend to and since Marveld is taking a break from CV anyways, I will be a little while respond. But it’s coming don’t worry.

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geekryan

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Is this still going?

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Scarlet_Wiccan

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@geekryan: I think so, me and marveld2 are basically finished, Hellespont still needs to post one more time, but he's currently busy.