CaV: Enel (GearSecond659) vs Krishna (HigherPower) OPEN FOR VOTING

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BATTLE OF GODS

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RULES

  • Fight to K.O. or Death
  • Both Characters are in Prime Condition
  • In Character, but Serious
  • Fighters Start 20 Feet Apart

SETTING

India
India

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#3  Edited By vsw

?

Is it bad I've never heard of these characters before? Ahywho, Tag after every post

Edit: you changed it to enel, nvm

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HigherPower

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#4  Edited By HigherPower

Krishna

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Something you'd expect from a character with 5 appearances is a low number of feats. So I'll get right to the point.

Krishna is India's Supergod, a man-made sentient weapon during the Cold War. His AI was extremely advanced, taking in all the knowledge of the world within moments after he was born.

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Out of all the Supergods, he was probably the most well rounded. One of his best feats is using telekinesis to redirect 200 nuclear warheads launched from Pakistan to India, and then creating an energy barrier that withstood the explosion. The total amount of energy from the nukes was stated on-panel to be 500 kilotons due to an extra boost from tritium radiation, so it was the equivalent of 33 Hiroshima bombs. In other words, city level.

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The wall Krishna made effectively boxed Pakistan in.

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Which is a pretty good showing for his TK and the durability of his energy barrier. It also gives him hypersonic speed since most ballistic missiles are that fast.

Moving on, I'd like you to meet a guy named Malak.

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He was Iran's Supergod, and he has one of the most broken abilities out of all the gods. Malak retains a field of destruction around him at all times. It allows him to passively disassemble everything inside on an atomic level.

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But the clincher is, Malak can expand the AoE of his field of destruction. He could do it to the point that, while simply walking from Iran to India, Malak obliterated a substantial part of Afghanistan and his path of destruction was visible from space.

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In the last panel you can see that the feat is pretty much country level. Despite this, his fight with Krishna didn't go so well. The second Krishna saw him, he elevated the ground under him so fast and forcefully that he sent Malak flying to the moon in seconds.

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As stated by Simon Reddin, Malak's field of destruction was increased to the extreme level, and this is evident by the fact Malak plowed straight through the moon and left large country sized craters on either ends in the fourth scan. But guess what?

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Yup. The BFR was so fast and powerful that not only did Malak reach the Moon from Earth in seconds, but Malak's passive, country level atomic disassociation wasn't able to hinder Krishna's construct. Enel can survive in space and being intangible means he won't splatter from the impact of hitting the moon, but at the end of the day, Krishna can still win with BFR. (Enel won't have his Ark Maxim to come back.)

Logia intangibility is the last thing I wanted to talk about. Enel is impervious to standard physical attacks when he turn into lightning, but lightning itself is matter that's composed of atoms. And Krishna can create insects capable of devouring Maitreya (China's supergod) who has complete control of his atomic structure.

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So Krishna's insects will have no problem eating away at Enel.

Conclusion

Enel is simply outmatched here. Krishna has hypersonic reactions so you can't argue Enel blitzing, and he has no counter to virtually instantaneous BFR to the moon or insects that can eat someone presumably down to the atomic level.

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T4V, interested to see if Krishna has enough stuff for a CaV

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DarkPsychicLord_Prime

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Nice to see a Supergod character used on a CAV.

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Thenewguysnm1

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I take a couple days off cv and i come back to this insert word i would get banned for saying absolutely astonishing

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@higherpower: Expect my post tomorrow as I had some things to attend to irl

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@higherpower:

ENEL | THE GOD OF SKYPEIA

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Enel is the former ruler of the collection of Sky Islands called Skypeia, originally coming from one of the islands called Birka, Enel found and consumed the Devil Fruit the Goro Goro no Mi, turning him into a Lightning Man, after destroying Birka he and has army took over Skypeia, he became the new God before deciding to leave Skypeia for the moon, a place where God truly belongs.

ABILITIES

Haven eaten the magical Devil Fruit, my specifically the Goro Goro No Mi, Enel has the power to control and turn into lightning, affording Enel a surprising amount of versatility in combat.

An obvious application of this ability is energy projection, more specifically, lightning projection. Now, before I fully get into this topic, I want to address what I am sure will be a hotly debated topic in this debate, that being the speed of Enel's lightning. I would argue that Enel's lightning moves at the speed of natural lightning, seeing as how it literally is natural lightning.

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Here, it is heavily implied by Nami that Enel's lightning is natural lightning. From her breakdown of how Enel's lightning aligned with real life lightning science and mechanics to her literally stating that Enel can control lightning in the very next panel, the implication here is that Enel can manipulate natural lightning. Thus, Enel's lightning should reasonably be able to move as fast as natural lightning, clocking in at about Mach 287.

Why is this important you ask. Well my opponent himself stated that Krishna was hypersonic:

Krishna has hypersonic reactions

This is detrimental for Krishna because this means he won't be able to react to a very much MHS lightning bolt from Enel, and since he isn't exactly swimming in feats, particularly of the energy resistance variety, he will get one shotted. To prove this, let us delve into the potency of Enel's lightning.

To give you a baseline as to what Enel is capable of, Enel can CASUALLY conduct 30 million volts between his finger tips.

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Then there is Enel's 60 million volt dragon.

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And if the battle ever devolves into CQC, Enel can unleash a whopping 100 volts from his palm, quite effortlessly I might add.

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In terms of actual DC feats, look no further than what Enel's lightning did when fully unleashed on another island.

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It ravaged a city block and left a gargantuan crater in its wake. I will leave it at this for now in terms of Enel's DC because, let's face it: Krishna has no durability feats that will allow him to tank a single lightning bolt from Enel. Those are just the facts.

Moving on, let's discuss the defensive applications of Enel's Devil Fruit. Being a Logia, Enel is granted a sort of elemental intangibility, in that he can turn literally turn into lightning and remain completely impervious to physical attacks.

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This is an especially dangerous ability when you factor in Enel's secondary ability, his Mantra. This allows Enel a kind of precognition and hyper awareness, which he can use to dodge attacks from Luffy.

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So Enel can just his prescience to prepare for Khrisna's attack via turning into lightning, proving all physical attacks moot.

Thus, the main idea you should have gotten from this section of my opener is that Enel is more than capable of oneshotting Krishna as soon as the fight begins. Since I have established that Enel's lightning moves at the speed of natural lightning, Krishna is not going to be able to react to, let alone evade a lightning bolt from Enel. And given Krishna's lack of durability feats, specifically of the energy resistant variety, he will be one shotted. And make no mistake, Enel will make the first move. His Mantra allows him to be ahead of the game and offers him such versatility on the battlefield that he can practically control the fight. Not to mention, when combined with his elemental intangibility, Enel will remain untagged say for one weapon in Krishna's arsenal that is hard countered by Enel's abilities.

COUNTERS

Which is a pretty good showing for his TK and the durability of his energy barrier. It also gives him hypersonic speed since most ballistic missiles are that fast.

Pretty impressive feats. However, Krishna won't have anywhere near the reaction speed to react to a lightning bolt, let alone the reaction speed to form an energy barrier or make use of TK.

Yup. The BFR was so fast and powerful that not only did Malak reach the Moon from Earth in seconds, but Malak's passive, country level atomic disassociation wasn't able to hinder Krishna's construct. Enel can survive in space and being intangible means he won't splatter from the impact of hitting the moon, but at the end of the day, Krishna can still win with BFR. (Enel won't have his Ark Maxim to come back.)

Mantra and elemental intangibility HARD COUNTER this strategy. You do realize that Enel is so aware of his surroundings that he can hear every sound within a country's range.

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And this isn't hyperbole either. Throughout the Skypeia arc, Enel has consistently used his Mantra to observe the actions of other people in the country, a fact I am sure you are aware since you have read One Piece. So given Enel's foresight and his insane perception, I have no doubt that he will be able to turn intangible before the BFR takes place. And that's assuming you can prove that BFR is a consistent tactic Krishna uses as his first move in combat, cause if he uses any other attack, he is going to get one shotted by Enel.

Logia intangibility is the last thing I wanted to talk about. Enel is impervious to standard physical attacks when he turn into lightning, but lightning itself is matter that's composed of atoms. And Krishna can create insects capable of devouring Maitreya (China's supergod) who has complete control of his atomic structure.

Really? Insects. These insects will get one shotted by Enel as soon as they are deployed. Sure they are capable of taking Enel out, that I am not contesting. But from a practical standpoint, these featless insects aren't getting past Enel's ranged attacks such as his lightning dragon.

As I have hoped I have proven, the few advantages my opponent thought Krishna had are really nonexistent. Krishna may have really good durability feats with his energy barrier, but he has no reaction speed feats to prove he can create a barrier before he gets one shotted by Enel's lightning. Krishna may have a form of BFR, but this is countered by Mantra, allowing Enel foresight and increased awareness of his surroundings, which should allow him to turn intangible before Krishna can BFR him. And that's assuming it is in character for him to do so as his first form of attack. And while Krishna may have a counter to Enel's intangibility, they don't have the feats to get past Enel's ranged attacks and get close enough to attack him on the atomic level.

CONCLUSION

Thus, Enel wins due to his unparalleled versatility in combat, His Devil Fruit power allows him a means to one shot Krishna while at the same time, a means not to get one shotted by Krishna. He also has Mantra, which allows him control over the battle given his superior perception and foresight.

Overall, this is kind of a mismatch and I don't know why you agreed to this match up

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#14  Edited By vsw

Continue tagging me gents

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bump for attention

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HigherPower

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#16  Edited By HigherPower

@gearsecond659: Sorry for the delay. I also had I had things to take care of. Additionally, we can go for another round of posts depending on your response.

Round 2

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Preamble

There are three main reasons why I project you'll lose this match:

1. You equated the speed of a character's attack with that character's own speed - This is very important. The speed an attack travels is not equivalent to the speed a character can initiate an attack. Enel calling lightning from the sky is natural lightning so those projections travel at lightning speed, but Enel himself is nowhere near the speed of lightning in combat or reactions. This is why I compared Enel to Thor. In my opener I said Enel was hypersonic, and after rereading the latter half of the Skypeia arc, it seems I gave him too much credit. With Mantra he was at best comparable to Luffy who didn't have any feats above supersonic at the time, and he got blitzed mercilessly by Luffy after Luffy managed to counter Mantra with random attacks in chapter 281.

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At best Enel has some form of teleportation that involves him turning into lightning, but he has to actually react to an attack first before he can use it, and he doesn't have any feats to suggest he can react to something above supersonic.

2. Overselling Logia Intangibility - Elemental intangibility is not the same thing as spatial intangibility. Enel is not immune to telekinesis or matter manipulation just because he can turn into lightning. Logia intangibility is really just glorified regeneration.

3. Overselling Mantra - Enel's mantra precog is worthless if he doesn't actually have the speed to react to an attack he foresees. He legitimately wasn't fast enough to dodge Luffy's Bazooka and Rifle despite seeing both attacks coming in clear view.

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Keep in mind Luffy capped at supersonic by this arc. Enel has absolutely zero speed feats on his own that place him above that, so it's quite literally impossible for you to argue him reacting to anything much faster.

With that said, let's proceed to my

Rebuttals

Thus, the main idea you should have gotten from this section of my opener is that Enel is more than capable of oneshotting Krishna as soon as the fight begins.

Just... no. The second the fight starts, Krishna looks at Enel and catapults him to the moon. The speed of elevation for the construct Krishna used to fling Malak is easily hypersonic (escape velocity), and the speed Malak's body was sent flying was massively hypersonic seeing as Malak reached the moon in what could only have been seconds.

Since I have established that Enel's lightning moves at the speed of natural lightning, Krishna is not going to be able to react to, let alone evade a lightning bolt from Enel. And given Krishna's lack of durability feats, specifically of the energy resistant variety, he will be one shotted. And make no mistake, Enel will make the first move. His Mantra allows him to be ahead of the game and offers him such versatility on the battlefield that he can practically control the fight. Not to mention, when combined with his elemental intangibility, Enel will remain untagged say for one weapon in Krishna's arsenal that is hard countered by Enel's abilities.

You're abusing mantra. Enel doesn't use it like that. Not to mention, he doesn't always make the first move either. Because of his arrogance and reliance on his Devil Fruit, there are times when Enel opts to toy with his opponents or let them attack him first because he believes himself to be an invincible god. The best example of this is in chapter 264 when he encountered Kamakiri.

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Pretty impressive feats. However, Krishna won't have anywhere near the reaction speed to react to a lightning bolt, let alone the reaction speed to form an energy barrier or make use of TK.

Krishna can't react to lightning from the sky, but Enel himself doesn't fight at lightning speed. Krishna will get the first draw here, and he'll either send Enel to the moon or impale him with the substance he used to clean India which one-shotted Perun and Matreya's flying flesh demon.

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This substance manipulates basic matter so logia intangibility won't protect Enel from it.

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It also contains the snakes and insects that ate Maitreya and his ride. For reference, the winged flesh demon Maitraya rode on was made from the human flesh of an entire country's population matter manipulated together and you already know Maitreya can control his atomic structure.

Mantra and elemental intangibility HARD COUNTER this strategy. You do realize that Enel is so aware of his surroundings that he can hear every sound within a country's range.

Yet Enel wasn't aware of Luffy's presence while Luffy was inside the snake Nola. He was only able to detect his presence after Luffy escaped and went to go confront him.

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Which proves Enel's mantra isn't infallible. Enel has also admitted as much himself.

And this isn't hyperbole either. Throughout the Skypeia arc, Enel has consistently used his Mantra to observe the actions of other people in the country, a fact I am sure you are aware since you have read One Piece. So given Enel's foresight and his insane perception, I have no doubt that he will be able to turn intangible before the BFR takes place. And that's assuming you can prove that BFR is a consistent tactic Krishna uses as his first move in combat, cause if he uses any other attack, he is going to get one shotted by Enel.

What? Enel can't see into the future. He's not Katakuri. His mantra/haki is only applicable in close combat and he still needs speed.

Krishna used BFR on Malak the second he laid eyes on him. Read the scans I posted in my opener again.

Really? Insects. These insects will get one shotted by Enel as soon as they are deployed. Sure they are capable of taking Enel out, that I am not contesting. But from a practical standpoint, these featless insects aren't getting past Enel's ranged attacks such as his lightning dragon.

The insects are more of a distraction since they'll swarm him. You arguing that he'll have to one-shot them seals your fate, since Krishna can BFR him or impale him in that instant. Enel really can't afford to take his eyes off of Krishna for even a moment, seeing as Krishna has three different ways to one-shot him and holds a speed advantage even with Mantra factored in.

As I have hoped I have proven, the few advantages my opponent thought Krishna had are really nonexistent. Krishna may have really good durability feats with his energy barrier, but he has no reaction speed feats to prove he can create a barrier before he gets one shotted by Enel's lightning. Krishna may have a form of BFR, but this is countered by Mantra, allowing Enel foresight and increased awareness of his surroundings, which should allow him to turn intangible before Krishna can BFR him. And that's assuming it is in character for him to do so as his first form of attack. And while Krishna may have a counter to Enel's intangibility, they don't have the feats to get past Enel's ranged attacks and get close enough to attack him on the atomic level.

All you've done this entire time is scale Enel to the speed of his lightning. His blasts aren't even lightning speed; only when he uses clouds like produced from his Ark Maxim, or when summoned from the sky like in the instance where he left a hole on Angel Island are Enel's projections lightning speed. He has lightning speed travel (presumably), but in combat he's clearly nowhere near that. Luffy was able to keep up with him when Enel used Mantra and blitzed him with ricocheted attacks. He also blitzed him with a Bazooka and Rifle towards the end of the fight, which is a stellar anti-feat for Enel's mantra (in addition to Enel failing to perceive Luffy and co. when they were inside Nola) since Luffy only had supersonic speed feats by then.

His mantra won't be able to counter a hypersonic BFR, and if he gets distracted by a swarm of insects and takes time to one-shot it, Krishna can impale him with a substance that bypasses his logia intangibility due to it's proven matter-altering capabilities.

In Summation

This isn't a mismatch by any stretch of imagination, and due to Enel's arrogance and Krishna's callous disregard for life, I'm convinced he takes a majority here. I've said everything else I have to say.

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@higherpower:

REBUTTAL | CLASH OF TITANS

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PROBLEMS WITH YOUR POST

While you put out a good post, I have several severe problems with your assessment of the battle. For starters, I feel like Enel's speed is being severely undersold here. In order for Enel to fire off a lightning bolt, I agree that he would need some pretty nifty combat and reaction speed. Luckily, he has both. With the former, he can combine his physical movements with his Mantra to the point that he was able to blitz the hell out of Luffy.

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The same Luffy who earlier in the arc, was reacting to explosions quite casually.

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So Enel's combat speed is nothing to be scoffed at.

As for reaction speed he should scale off of Monkey D. Luffy due to his mastery of Mantra. Enel's Mantra affords him an insane amount of reaction speed to the point that he was able to casually react to Luffy's Gum Gum Gatling, a feat unheard of in the series at that point. Just look at Luffy's expression for proof of this.

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It just wouldn't make sense for Enel to have a slower reaction speed than Luffy given the emphasis placed on how impressive Enel's reaction speed is. I mean why introduce Mantra or precognition as a concept if there are characters without Mantra that have faster reaction speeds than you in the same arc it was introduced? It just wouldn't make sense.

At bare minimum, Enel should be on Luffy's level of reaction speed, but reasonably, he should be fairly above this.

Another thing I have a problem with is your misunderstanding of Enel's logia devil fruit. Being a logia, Enel can literally turn intangible via turning into lightning. While regeneration is an additional power afforded to Enel because of this ability, let's not mistake it as the only power. Case and point, we have this:

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The blade here is clearly passing through Enel in this moment. You can't chalk it up to Enel "regenerating" because there is literally nothing to regenerate from. Enel has sustained no damage from this attack and no injuries to heal.

Now with that said, let us get into rebuttals:

COUNTERS

With Mantra he was at best comparable to Luffy who didn't have any feats above supersonic at the time,

Casually reacting to explosions doesn't make you above supersonic? Okay sir.

and he got blitzed mercilessly by Luffy after Luffy managed to counter Mantra with random attacks in chapter 281.

You made a claim and then debunked that claim in the same sentence lol. The only reason Luffy was able to blitz Enel was because he found a loophole around Enel's Mantra. And Enel's Mantra is a contributing factor, if not the only factor as to why Enel has the reaction speed that he does. Essentially, when you take away Enel's Mantra, you are nerfing his reaction speed by an absurd margin.

Enel's mantra precog is worthless if he doesn't actually have the speed to react to an attack he foresees.

Except he does.

He legitimately wasn't fast enough to dodge Luffy's Bazooka and Rifle despite seeing both attacks coming in clear view.

It's not that he wasn't fast enough. He literally perceived Luffy's attempted blitz. The only reason he wasn't able to dodge is because he was heavily fatigued and injured.

You're abusing mantra. Enel doesn't use it like that. Not to mention,he doesn't always make the first move either. Because of his arrogance and reliance on his Devil Fruit, there are times when Enel opts to toy with his opponents or let them attack him first because he believes himself to be an invincible god. The best example of this is in chapter 264 when he encountered Kamakiri.

This would normally be the case. However, the OP clearly states "in character, but serious" so it is doubtful that Enel will toy around with Krishna if he is actually serious and acknowledges Krishna as a worth opponent.

Krishna can't react to lightning from the sky, but Enel himself doesn't fight at lightning speed. Krishna will get the first draw here, and he'll either send Enel to the moon or impale him with the substance he used to clean India which one-shotted Perun and Matreya's flying flesh demon.

Due to Enel's superior combat and reaction speed afforded to him by Mantra, Enel will definetely make the first move here.

Yet Enel wasn't aware of Luffy's presence while Luffy was inside the snake Nola. He was only able to detect his presence after Luffy escaped and went to go confront him.

This is clearly PIS. Enel has consistently heard the voices of people from islands away.

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Even if it wasn't PIS, which is just wrong, Luffy was actively trying to be stealthy during that moment, a tactic Krishna won't resort to, and thus Mantra is still a viable way to counter his attacks.

The insects are more of a distraction since they'll swarm him. You arguing that he'll have to one-shot them seals your fate since Krishna can BFR him on impale him in that instant. Enel really can;t afford to take his eyes off of Krishna for even a moment, seeing as Krishna has three different ways to one-shot him and holds a speed advantage even with Mantra factored in.

Enel definitely has the speed advantage so the insects are a non factor here seeing as how Enel will make the first move.

All you've done this entire time is scale Enel to the speed of his lightning. His blasts aren't even lightning speed; only when he uses clouds like produced from his Ark Maxim or when summoned from the sky like in the instance where he left a hole on Angel Island are Enel's projections lightning speed.

Not true. I have proven that Enel's lightning is natural lightning, and as such, moves at the speed of natural lightning.

He has lightning speed travel (presumably), but in combat he's clearly nowhere near that.

He is still fast enough in combat to blitz Krishna, especially with Mantra. Also, you shot yourself in the foot with the lighting speed travel statement. With this travel speed, Enel has two ways of evading Krishna's BFR. Turn intangible or close the distance at lightning speeds and discharge immense amounts of electricity from his palm.

Luffy was able to keep up with him when Enel used Mantra and blitzed him with ricocheted attacks.

Luffy was only able to do this through finding a loophole in Enel's Mantra.

He also blitzed him with a Bazooka and Rifle towards the end of the fight,which is a stellar anti-feat for Enel's mantra (in addition to Enel failing to perceive Luffy and co. when they were inside Nola) since Luffy only had supersonic speed feats by then.

This was when Enel was weakened and couldn't move his body fast enough.

CONCLUSION

Overall, I stand by the opinion that this is a severe mismatch. Enel's Mantra greatly enhances his speed and allows him to control the fight through his increased perception and movement speed. He will easily be able to make the first move as while Krishna has good reaction speed showings, he has no combat speed feats that prove his powers can be activated at the same speed as Enel's. However, should Krishna launch the first attack, Enel can turn intangible or use his lightning speed travel speed to blitz over to Krishna and one shot him with a discharge of electricity, another viable strategy for Enel to defeat Krishna.

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HigherPower

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#19  Edited By HigherPower

@gearsecond659:

Final Round

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Rebuttals

With the former, he can combine his physical movements with his Mantra to the point that he was able to blitz the hell out of Luffy.

The same Luffy who earlier in the arc, was reacting to explosions quite casually.

So Enel's combat speed is nothing to be scoffed at.

Number one, there's virtually no proof Luffy actually reacted to that explosion. Just look at the scans... It's an incredibly unclear feat, considering how Satori was pulling Luffy in and the way we cut to Luffy on Satori's back when the smoke cleared. The fact that you find this even remotely impressive is insulting. You question sarcastically later in your post whether reacting to an explosion is above supersonic, which proves that you didn't even have the incentive to do so much as research it.

Spoiler alert: The speed of an explosion depends entirely on the material that's used as a base. One Piece is set in a world where ships still use cannons as the heaviest artillery, so in spite of anachronisms like cameras and transponder snails, they are still very much in a world where black powder is bound to be the primary chemical explosive. In other words, there's no proof that any weapon's explosion in One Piece (like the one in the instance you posted or the one Luffy escaped against Foxy) are faster than mach 1.1 or 1,312 feet per second. Source.

So yes, seeing as scaling to Luffy's extremely-ambiguous-barely-supersonic feat is the best case you could make for Enel's speed, I maintain a firm stance on Krishna getting the first move here.

As for reaction speed he should scale off of Monkey D. Luffy due to his mastery of Mantra. Enel's Mantra affords him an insane amount of reaction speed to the point that he was able to casually react to Luffy's Gum Gum Gatling, a feat unheard of in the series at that point. Just look at Luffy's expression for proof of this.

Wow, supersonic reaction speed even with Mantra. I'm literally wetting my pants in fear right now.

The blade here is clearly passing through Enel in this moment. You can't chalk it up to Enel "regenerating" because there is literally nothing to regenerate from. Enel has sustained no damage from this attack and no injuries to heal.

I was basically saying that logia "intangibility" is typically overblown. Enel isn't completely impervious to physical techniques like matter manipulation just because spears and bullets pass through him, which he would be if he could go spatially intangible like Kamui wielders.

Casually reacting to explosions doesn't make you above supersonic? Okay sir.

Nope. Not in One Piece. And especially if there's no way to verify you actually reacted to it.

You made a claim and then debunked that claim in the same sentence lol. The only reason Luffy was able to blitz Enel was because he found a loophole around Enel's Mantra. And Enel's Mantra is a contributing factor, if not the only factor as to why Enel has the reaction speed that he does. Essentially, when you take away Enel's Mantra, you are nerfing his reaction speed by an absurd margin.

I didn't debunk myself. I was just showing how reliant Enel was on mantra and that he'd be practically a statue in terms of speed without it. Which this sentence basically reaffirms.

Regardless he'll have mantra here so it doesn't matter, but his feats with it aren't that impressive either.

It's not that he wasn't fast enough. He literally perceived Luffy's attempted blitz. The only reason he wasn't able to dodge is because he was heavily fatigued and injured.

Fair enough, but I think overall you get my point. We've gone back and forth but at the end of the day, I think it's fairly obvious that Enel and Luffy are comparable in overall speed, with Enel having an edge when he uses precog. You literally never managed to counter my claim that Luffy capped at supersonic by this arc, and the best feat you posted for him in response was an—excuse my french—pretty shitty barely supersonic feat.

On top of the fact Enel isn't faster than Krishna in combat (and the victor of this battle goes to whoever is quicker on the draw), he'll be distracted at least for a moment by swarms of innumerable insects which only allows Krishna an easier opportunity to one-shot or BFR.

This would normally be the case. However, the OP clearly states "in character, but serious" so it is doubtful that Enel will toy around with Krishna if he is actually serious and acknowledges Krishna as a worth opponent.

He has no knowledge on Krishna though, so he can't acknowledge him as an opponent on equal grounds as him. And being serious doesn't take away from the fact that Enel literally thinks he's a god. Just look at his facial expression when he realized he couldn't one-shot Luffy...

No Caption Provided

Even with Oda's frequent use of exaggerated facial expressions for comedic effect, don't you think this is a little explicit? Using an entire page and all? The portrayal of Enel's utter disbelief is written plainly here and can't be denied. He's just not used to encountering someone who can last more than a few seconds in his presence. On an opponent he has no knowledge on, and taking his arrogance into account, Enel would never go all out from the start, or do anything similar. No reason to start assuming he would just because you added "but serious" to your in-character designation.

At best he might not play around with Krishna, but you can bet your bottom dollar he won't start using his strongest attacks at the drop of the hat.

Even if it wasn't PIS, which is just wrong, Luffy was actively trying to be stealthy during that moment, a tactic Krishna won't resort to, and thus Mantra is still a viable way to counter his attacks.

You realize Enel wasn't able to detect Nami's presence inside Nola either? That's why he said his count was wrong after she escaped too.

No Caption Provided

And she wasn't trying to be stealthy while inside Nola so that won't work. And considering Enel has few appearances and One Piece is under a specific writer, failure to do a specific thing on two occasions can't be brushed aside as PIS or WIS. It just straight up shows his abilities aren't as perfect as you make them out to be.

The insects are more of a distraction since they'll swarm him. You arguing that he'll have to one-shot them seals your fate since Krishna can BFR him on impale him in that instant. Enel really can;t afford to take his eyes off of Krishna for even a moment, seeing as Krishna has three different ways to one-shot him and holds a speed advantage even with Mantra factored in.

Enel definitely has the speed advantage so the insects are a non factor here seeing as how Enel will make the first move.

Um... this is not a good counter at all. In fiction, when your attention is divided your reaction speed is invariably lowered. I could cite dozens of examples from all mediums, but this is a fantastic one.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The scans speak for themselves really, though I should note that Garou was reacting to Ripper and Big God's attacks just fine, so that opening statement of his was completely substantiated. Yet look what happened to him when he looked away for a moment. Even if you [impossibly] proved Enel to be faster than Krishna, a swarm of untold millions of bugs that he would have to take time to one-shot would definitely present an opening for Krishna to use.

Not true. I have proven that Enel's lightning is natural lightning, and as such, moves at the speed of natural lightning.

Cool, Enel doesn't move at the speed of his lightning except when completely transforms into it which he usually does in conjunction with teleportation.

With this travel speed, Enel has two ways of evading Krishna's BFR. Turn intangible or close the distance at lightning speeds and discharge immense amounts of electricity from his palm.

...He has to be able to react to the BFR first, before he can travel away. And considering how fast that thing sent Malak to the moon, Enel won't even perceive what happened until he's on the surface.

He will easily be able to make the first move as while Krishna has good reaction speed showings, he has no combat speed feats that prove his powers can be activated at the same speed as Enel's.

Already proved him to be capable of BFR'ing is massively hypersonic speeds. Considering he did that via elevating a construct, his offensive speed when applying his TK is also this level.

However, should Krishna launch the first attack, Enel can turn intangible

Suppose the first attack is the matter-altering substance or a catapult to the moon?

his lightning speed travel speed to blitz over to Krishna and one shot him with a discharge of electricity, another viable strategy for Enel to defeat Krishna.

Wait. Use travel speed to blitz someone in combat? That's news to me.

Conclusion

Krishna wins. Enel is versatile character, but he's not particularly impressive in comparison to a guy who can counter his "intangibility" and is more than fast enough to tango with him. Krishna is naturally more likely to get the first draw even if you take away speed (which is in his favor) due to Enel's arrogance and Krishna's uncompromising resolve to eradicate enemies.

Other than that, my conclusion is the same as before. So yeah, I hope you guys enjoyed this post and the debate overall. Game, set, match.

No Caption Provided

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@higherpower:

CLOSER | THE TRUE GOD

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REBUTTALS

Number one, there's virtually no proof Luffy actually reacted to that explosion. Just look at the scans... It's an incredibly unclear feat, considering how Satori was pulling Luffy in and the way we cut to Luffy on Satori's back when the smoke cleared. The fact that you find this even remotely impressive is insulting. You question sarcastically later in your post whether reacting to an explosion is above supersonic, which proves that you didn't even have the incentive to do so much as research it.

This feat is not unclear by an stretch of the imagination. Satori managed to react to the explosion by flying so high into the air that the explosion wouldn't reach him as soon as the detonation occurred. This is proven by how Satori was huffing and puffing after the explosion occurred to the point that he couldn't concentrate on his Mantra in addition to appearing to be quite the distance away from the effects of the explosion after the smoke cleared. So it can be seen that Satori definitely reacted to the explosion. In order for Luffy to reach Satori without him even noticing, he would have to have reacted to the explosion with Satori, perhaps to an even greater extent, and move out of the effects of the explosion.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Spoiler alert: The speed of an explosion depends entirely on the material that's used as a base. One Piece is set in a world where ships still use cannons as the heaviest artillery, so in spite of anachronisms like cameras and transponder snails, they are still very much in a world where black powder is bound to be the primary chemical explosive. In other words, there's no proof that any weapon's explosion in One Piece (like the one in the instance you posted or the one Luffy escaped against Foxy) are faster than mach 1.1 or 1,312 feet per second. Source.

Wow. This has to be the most uninformed claim you have made thus far. If you had read the Skypeia arc like you claimed, you would know that Skypeian technology is not bound by using black powder as its base.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Scan 1 - It is established that Skypeian technology is far superior to that found in the normal world

Scan 2 - It is explicitly stated that dials energy is the main form of energy Skypeian's rely on (bare in mind that dial energy is what powers their technology and is what makes their technology so much more advanced)

Thus, Skypeian explosives should move significantly faster than black powder based explosives given how advanced their technology is in comparison to those found in the human world.

So yes, seeing as scaling to Luffy's extremely-ambiguous-barely-supersonic feat is the best case you could make for Enel's speed, I maintain a firm stance on Krishna getting the first move here.

Yeah, no. Even if this were the case, you have only shown Krishna's reaction speed which is different from the speed at which Krishna can use his powers. So even if Krishna had the advantage in reaction speed, you have yet to prove that Krishna has the advantage in combat speed, which will determine if Krishna can make the first move at the end of the day.

Enel isn't completely impervious to physical techniques like matter manipulation just because spears and bullets pass through him, which he would be if he could go spatially intangible like Kamui wielders.

As to not confuse voters, I want to clarify that Krishna's matter manipulation will only be used to manipulate the ground under Enel and propel him into the air, which is a physical attack. If Krishna was manipulating Enel's lightning, it would be a different story, but he is just manipulating the ground under Enel, which Enel can easily phase through with his intangibility.

On top of the fact Enel isn't faster than Krishna in combat (and the victor of this battle goes to whoever is quicker on the draw), he'll be distracted at least for a moment by swarms of innumerable insects which only allows Krishna an easier opportunity to one-shot or BFR.

Based on what? A reaction speed feat that doesn't translate to combat speed in anyway?

He has no knowledge on Krishna though, so he can't acknowledge him as an opponent on equal grounds as him.

Doesn't matter. Enel's overall outlook on the battle will change because he is actually serious about fighting.

And being serious doesn't take away from the fact that Enel literally thinks he's a god.

It doesn't. It just changes how much this thinking impairs his combat ability.

Just look at his facial expression when he realized he couldn't one-shot Luffy...

Enel wasn't taking his fight serious with Luffy at all. And Enel can one shot Krishna, so your comparison is fallacious.

Even with Oda's frequent use of exaggerated facial expressions for comedic effect, don't you think this is a little explicit? Using an entire page and all? The portrayal of Enel's utter disbelief is written plainly here and can't be denied. He's just not used to encountering someone who can last more than a few seconds in his presence. On an opponent he has no knowledge on, and taking his arrogance into account, Enel would never go all out from the start, or do anything similar. No reason to start assuming he would just because you added "but serious" to your in-character designation.

Again, Enel wasn't taking his fight with Luffy seriously. And even when he wasn't serious about fighting Luffy, he still resorted to using lightning attacks as his goto move. Imagine what would happen if Enel took his fight seriously.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

You realize Enel wasn't able to detect Nami's presence inside Nola either? That's why he said his count was wrong after she escaped too.

And she wasn't trying to be stealthy while inside Nola so that won't work. And considering Enel has few appearances and One Piece is under a specific writer, failure to do a specific thing on two occasions can't be brushed aside as PIS or WIS. It just straight up shows his abilities aren't as perfect as you make them out to be.

She did this by not making any sound, which Krishna will not attempt to do. Also, this is clearly PIS as I have shown you 3 instances of Oda clearly establishing that Enel's Mantra is far more potent than this, while you have shown me only two. Thus it is more consistent for Enel's Mantra to make use of its potent sensory abilities than the contrary.

In fiction, when your attention is divided your reaction speed is invariably lowered. I could cite dozens of examples from all mediums, but this is a fantastic one.

Krishna won't be able to make use of his insects given the disparity in speed though. Enel will make the first move and oneshot Krishna.

And considering how fast that thing sent Malak to the moon, Enel won't even perceive what happened until he's on the surface.

Woah. Don't confuse voters now. The only speed that matters is how fast Krishna can physically BFR you, not how fast the actual BFR is. So, while impressive, how fast it took Malak to get to the moon isn't relevant to the fight.

Already proved him to be capable of BFR'ing is massively hypersonic speeds.

Again, that is the speed of the actual BFR, not the speed of how fast the BFR can be initiated.

Considering he did that via elevating a construct, his offensive speed when applying his TK is also this level.

That's all find and dandy, but it means nothing without the reaction and combat speed to boot.

Wait. Use travel speed to blitz someone in combat? That's news to me.

Enel can use his travel speed to get over to Krishna's location before he can react and oneshot him. He used that tactic here against Luffy.

No Caption Provided

Suppose the first attack is the matter-altering substance or a catapult to the moon?

Only the matter altering substance will work, but it has no speed feats to suggest Enel couldn't react to it with a lightning blast of his own.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Thus, Enel takes this fight in an utter stomp. His reaction and combat speed far exceeds that of Krishna's, and advantage afforded to him by his Mantra, allowing him increased perception, and thus control of the fight. With this speed advantage, Enel can one shot Krishna with a lightning blast or blitz over to his location and one shot him with his travel speed. On the off chance Enel can't do this, he has the reaction speed and intangibility to counter any BFR attempt or matter manipulation.

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Something feels a bit incomplete about this, but I'll try to read and vote soon

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@gearsecond659 Nice post. I still disagree with it (heavily lol) but at least I can rest easy knowing we both put some effort in instead of ending it at 2 meager posts.

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#26  Edited By KillerQueen

@higherpower: Would I be allowed to vote despite my low post count?

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@higherpower: Dude. Why do you always do this lol. The debate is over, so why are you bringing up new arguments that I didn't get to counter. Please delete your post.

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#28  Edited By HigherPower

@gearsecond659: Not a new argument considering I posted the feat in my opener and I called it hypersonic then. I'm just clarifying specifically how fast it is.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if you do view it as a shameless last-minute attempt to sway voters. It's not like i'm debating voters directly lol.

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@higherpower: It is still kind of cheap. You are only just now clarifying this fact after the debate is finished and thus after I have had a chance to counter it. And while you already posted the feat, you never went this far in depth with your explanation, which might as well make it a new argument. You even went on to attack my argument AFTER the debate finished.

All I ask is that you delete your post so voters solely off of the arguments presented in the CaV ourself and not after. Is that really so much to ask lol

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@streak619: Not that much of a difference in the long run. But I will delete the post because Gear asked nicely and I see where he is coming from.

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@higherpower: cool. @gearsecond659, you might want to delete the post #30 because you quoted his argument.

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Patheti,cringe and a stomp

Not sure what the fuss is about the result is the same

Sigh.....

Oh and I called it

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#36  Edited By Streak619

Says the guy who plagiarises openers for a living, while simultaneously believing he's HoF tier.

The hypocrisy is suffocating honestly.

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@thenewguysnm1: This wasn't a stomp in any way, you're letting your bias show. As a matter of fact, it was quite close. I'll have to reread the debate to come to a concrete conclusion as to who won, though I'm leaning slightly in one direction after rereading the last 2 posts.

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Oh and HOF is not a tier as there are some God awful debaters in that HOF

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#40  Edited By Jacthripper

Having read through the match, I was very entertained. It was a good math up. Now onto who I think won the debate, and who I think would win the battle.

As far as the debate, I would have to give it to @higherpower. My reasoning is that I feel he targeted the right points of discussion and supported his statements. On the other side, @gearsecond659 did well, but I feel he spent too much time saying that he could outright blitz his opponent. Based on the presented feats, I don't think he could/would absolutely defeat Krishna on the basis of speed. However, this brings me to who I think would win the fight. In this case I would say Enel would win, not because of his speed advantage, but the fact that he can likely survive an attack. If Krishna tried to BFR him to the Moon, you could easily argue that because of his superior durability and mobility, he could transform into lightning before he left the atmosphere. Then he could theoretically get close enough to release an electric blast from his palms, or perform another devastating attack. Krishna has damn good shields, so Enel has to get past those.

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@jacthripper: Thanks for the vote, but I have one thing to say. I didn't just argue for the blitz. While speed blitzing was one of my strategies, my main strategy was for Enel to one shot him with a lightning blast

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Will give this a read soon.

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@jacthripper: Thanks for the vote and the reasoning. I also appreciate your viewpoint on the fight, that was interesting though I'd still lean toward Krishna at the end of the day :P

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@jacthripper: Thanks for the vote, but I have one thing to say. I didn't just argue for the blitz. While speed blitzing was one of my strategies, my main strategy was for Enel to one shot him with a lightning blast

I think he showed more than well that Krishna's shield could tank that.

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I vote for @higherpower. Combat speed shouldn't even be a factor in this match; They aren't engaging in melee. If Krishna has an instant win tactic and the speed to use it, he wins. I wasn't completely convinced by the insect argument because Maitreya didn't really try to manipulate his molecules to get out and there weren't any instances of Maitreya actually using his powers presented making it a little speculative what was supposed to be happening, but there was no good counter for the BFR argument.

@gearsecond659 you presented good speed feats but nothing approaching the level to blitz a character with hypersonic reactions. You conflated reaction speed with blitzing too much, Enel dodging attacks from Luffy doesn't mean he blitz him. You did present Enel moving too fast for Luffy via travel speed but the reaction feat for Krishna is better than any shown from that version of Luffy so this tactic is moot.

There were possible counters for Krishna's feats. Specifically:

  • The missiles were fired at him from a country away and we don't know when he saw them coming. It's not as if he reacted to them in a combat scenario.
  • It was indicated Krishna may have planned to use Malak so it could be argued BFR was a circumstantial tactic.
  • Krishna BFRd Malak with the earth and in the process didn't use any of the powers he does have that would counter intangibility.

You didn't bring up any of these however and took the feats at face value. With the feats taken at face value, Enel loses.

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#46  Edited By HigherPower

@sy8000: Thanks for the vote, though-

Krishna BFRd Malak with the earth and in the process didn't use any of the powers he does have that would counter intangibility.

It was agreed upon that the blue substance Krishna used to clean India/kill Perun would counter Enel's intangibility due to it's matter-altering properties. Which is important because the construct Krishna used to BFR Malak became enveloped in it.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Other than that, you do make a good point.

@killerqueen said:

@higherpower: Would I be allowed to vote despite my low post count?

Yes. You don't seem to be an alt with an ulterior motive, so knock yourself out.

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#48  Edited By KillerQueen

@higherpower:

Yes. You don't seem to be an alt with an ulterior motive, so knock yourself out.

Awesome. In that case, I'll be giving my vote to you. I read it over, and although the arguments were very close, I feel that you gave far better reasoning in terms of why your character would attack and most likely win the fight before your opponent could do much of anything. In addition, I think that your opponent could have done a better job of countering your arguments and defending his own, although in no way am I saying that he didn't do a good job as well.

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