CAV Empress (HP Doomsday) vs BabyMagiKarp (Goku- DBZ)

I'm from the US and have a background in mathematics, physics, and photography. I am a long time lurker here and massive fiction nerd. I was challenged to this immensely difficult CaV, which was the entire reason why I accepted it. IE: the absurd difficulty around it. But, I took it for a reason. And I am going to lay that reason upon my challenger harder than a fully powered Kamehameha to the face. ^-^

In this first round, I am only going to talk about, in detail, how immensely screwed Doomsday is when it comes to Goku's powers. In my rebuttal, I'll draw on speed, strength, striking and other various powers that will totally ruin Doomsdays...well...day.

Let the first round begin!!!

In Dragonball, Ki (or Chi) is described as latent energy. The Daizenshu, official statements and DBwiki's everywhere state it.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki

The Definition of Magic is the invoking and usage of supernatural energies.

These are factual and objective statements. I accepted this CaV specifically for this reason. It is my firm belief and always has been that Chi and Ki is a mix of Magic and ethereal spiritual power. Something that comes from somewhere else entirely. That mystical, internal energy that flows from some other source. But, what is that source? It is magic. And I will prove that to you with cold, hard facts and real-world physics theory that indicate Ki comes from something not physical...and Kryptonians like Doomsday and Superman really have a hard time with things that are magic/etherial in nature.

Latent Energy requires a phase transition to be used, which is the conversion of an X molecule to a Y. Or, basically the converting a gas to a liquid, etc, or Goku's latent energy to a Kamehameha. That conversion requires energy and power to drive it, or some cause to affect it. One atomic bomb splits 6.02x10^23 atoms in a chain reaction during its explosion. In the human body, there are 7*10²⁷

What does this mean? It means that Goku is pulling energy out of nowhere to convert his latent energy Ki into a sustainable and energy. These energies in even just a small atomic blast are so far in excess of what each atom in the human body could produce if split the same way, that it is scientifically and mathematically impossible for Goku to put out more energy than what is capable of nuclear fusion. Yet, Goku can blow stars up without a problem. Hell, Master Roshi blew up the moon with a power level of just 138. And Goku's official power level at a SSJ1 against Freeza was a staggering 150,000,000. How did Roshi's latent Energy skyrocket excess of how many atoms can split during a nuclear ignition? A quote from authentic physicists:

- "Biggest nuclear weapon ever detonated was Russia's Czar Bomba, or King Bomb, which had a yield of 50 megatons. You'd need approximately 600 billion King Bombs to blow up the moon. Report: U.S. Planned On Blowing Up Moon With Nuke During Cold War."

What does that mean?

Well, I just proved that DBZ characters can't have enough energy in their bodies to perform the feats they do without external, supernatural or magical help. Somehow, Roshi and other DBZ characters can output 600 billion times just one nuclear blast ignition sequence of the splitting of atoms worth of latent energy, when just one bomb far exceeds the number of atoms that end up being split inside a human body. There are 7*10^27 atoms in the human body and it takes a number far, far in excess of this to destroy just the moon. Even if every atom in Roshi's body split like in an atomic blast, it would require so many more atoms to achieve a moon buster level nuclear blast, that a normal calculator can't fit the result and it gives me the middle finger instead...

Amount of Atoms in Roshi - 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (27 zeros) capable of producing energy.

Amount of Atoms split in just one nuke - 6 trillion trillion. The number doesn't fit here.

So take that giant number above and multiply it by 600 billion, and now you have the amount of power that Roshi is capable of with only a power level of 138. Multiply that by 1 million, and you get to where Goku was when he first turned Super Saiyan. Double that for a bare minimum for SSJ2. Multiple that by 4x and you get the absolute minimum amount of energy that Goku as an SSJ3 can put out of his body with latent energy. Does this sound absurd? That is because physics says it can't happen without things that break physics. Goku is using an ungodly amount more latent energy than the atoms inside his body that exist. What breaks physics again...?

I need readers in this CaV and my opponent to really think about this. How does Goku output more power than what latent energy is capable of? It can't come from physics and molecules, their bodies just don't have enough of them to reproduce the same level of explosive power that a nuclear blast would need to destroy the moon. So, it comes from another place entirely. And that is magic, supernatural, something mystical. They just can't store that amount of energy inside themselves without something physics breaking helping out.

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Back when Goku was a kid, he used a Dragonfist/Oozaru fist attack against King Piccolo...which manifested an immaterial figure of an Ozzaru behind him. Goku had mystical and magical attacks even back when he was a kid. As we all know...Kryptonians have issues with Magic and Mystical things. Doomsday is Kryptonian and shares those same issues.

Whoever thought it was wise to say Ki is latent energy and to make that official (Akira and his writers) didn't understand physics at all. This was their own demise, coming up against someone who does know physics...or at least, a bit about it ;) If you want to use physics terms to explain Ki, then you'll have to stick to physics and how it works as we know it up to a certain point. I've just covered that in full.

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From the Wiki:

[Kaio-ken (界かい王おう拳けん Kaiōken, lit. "Fist of the King of the Worlds" or "Worlds' King's Fist") is a technique invented by King Kai; however, Goku is the only person ever to use it successfully. It is a technique that multiplies the user's ki for a "heart beat" - thus increasing their power and speed.]

Well, jeez. Goku died and went to Heaven, an ethereal plane of existence and learned from an authentic leader of the spirit world on how to use a technique that nobody else in the entire 12+ universes can use. King Kai instructed Goku on the KioKen technique. And if you can get past the absurd energy required to sustain moon busters with only a power level of 138...you now need to get past the idea that Goku can elevate this even more with a technique taught by a small deity that can gift him even more power out of nowhere and for no real reason outside of that he knows how to tap into it. Where the hell is all this energy coming from? KioKen doesn't use Goku's own power. It amplifies it. So what is the catalyst for the amp, if it is not inside his body? It is coming from exterior control. Something...magical. Goku is literally lacing himself with magical endowments for literally all of his attacks.

Freeza could not replicate this, Cell Could not replicate this and none of the forms of Buu could. Why? Because it is a special, divine technique that only deities can show you how to use.

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I am so sorry for destroying anyone's outlook on how Ki works. But, Akira and his writers insisted on using physics terms to explain what Ki is by saying it is latent energy. So, if it is latent energy, it follows how physics applies to latent energy and the fact of the matter is if every single atom split inside Goku's body, just like how a nuclear explosion occurs, you'd need to multiply the number of atoms in the human/saiyan body by a massive factor to account for the explosive power required to just destroy the moon. That is just the moon. Not the Earth. Not the sun. Not the solar system and not portions of the Galaxy...which SSJ3 may be capable of. There aren't enough atoms in the body to account for all that storage of energy, so that energy comes from somewhere else. This was proven 100% true when Goku learned the KioKen, a technique that manifests extra power out of pure nothing...?

Nah, it is supernatural and magic at the very least, and at most...divine power, which Kryptonians are even more weak to than magic. A deity showed him how to tap into a reserve power bank and amplify his current stats by up to x20/100 etc. That energy comes from a magical, mystical unknown and unexplained place in Dragonball. It is not coming from atoms and their stored latent energy. I've just proven that is 100% not possible. The only other logical place that energy comes from and that is stored is a mystical place of pure magic, that gifts living beings the ability to store more energy than the raw amount of atoms inside their entire body.

Kryptonians are super weak against Magic and divinity. Especially Divine techniques and usages of matter and energy manipulations. There is a massive difference between physics control, magic, and divine powers from the likes of Lucifer, Michael , and similar angelic, godly beings. Goku learned the KioKen...from a deity, that gifts him powers from nowhere and a place where physics met its limitations and required something extra.

To sum up...Goku is a 180lb wrecking ball made of pure divine and magical power that can invoke magical abilities that Doomsday has never once been hit with in Hunter/Prey. Doomsday will be slaughtered by a man who can teleport, hit with the force of billions of nuclear bombs + and more. Doomsday has never been hit with anything divinely inspired and was not hit with magic during the events of HP at all. So, the first blast from Goku is going to totally destroy Doomsday on the cellular level.

I've shown you that Roshi hits with the force of 600 billion nuclear blasts. This feat is canon. He blew it up. And to do so would require 600 billion nuclear Tsar Bombs to do it. I've cited official sources that state what Ki is. It is latent energy and I went on to show you how energy is stored within latent energy. That storage is through atoms and released through atomic processes. In this case, I used the largest possible, a nuclear atom splitting reaction, to showcase the level of atoms that need to split in order to achieve the same released energy that 600 billion nuclear bombs would. The Human body and Saiyan Body simply dont have enough, all of Goku and Roshi's cells would have every atom inside them be required to split at the same time, going full nuclear individually, just to match Roshi's 600 billion nuke requirement to destroy the moon.

Here is HP Doomsday DYING from 1/5 of a planet buster and being hurled away by just the equivalent of 1 million nukes...just one million was enough to totally wreck Superman and Doomsday into shock for a short time. Imagine what 600 billion (Roshi's moon buster requires 600 billion nukes) times one million (SSJ1 Goku is 1 million times as powerful) times 2 ( SSJ2 is twice SSJ1 in power) times 4 (SSJ3 is 4 times the power of SSJ2) would do to HP Doomsday. And that isn't even taking into account the power level differentials between his training. I am giving the absolute minimums possible.
If doomsday can't handle 1/5 of a planet buster originally, and 1 million nukes send him and Superman hurdling away in a daze and stunned...what would SSJ3 Goku do by comparison?

1 million nukes > Doomsday

Nuclear Equivalent of SSJ3 = x4,800,000,000,000,000,000

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Math is fun. Objectively, according to physics and how latent energy works, Doomsday can't handle a moon buster attack or a 1/5 of a planet destroying attack. Hunter Prey literally states clear a bell "1/5 of a planet buster killed Doomsday. And after he adapted, one million nuclear bombs were too much for him to handle and was blown off along with Superman. This is objective information right out of the comic book telling us exactly what their limits were. SSJ3 Goku can destroy...well...I'll show you how many Earths he can destroy in my rebuttal.

Yet, Goku can blow stars up without a problem. Hell, Master Roshi blew up the moon with a power level of just 138.

He can't. There is not a single on panel feat in DB being star level. All of the feats are in the planetary range. If it would be that would also make it a big outlier. Since they are all a bunch of planet busters consistently.

Power levels are bullshit. A farmer with a power level of 5. Is only 27 times weaker than Master Roshi who blew up the Moon? What? Lol.

Also, that is an outlier. Hell, Piccolos Moon busting is arguably an outlier. Let's look at the scans.

Not to mention low mountain level blasts were impressive even in Saiyan Saga. Frieza was the first planet buster.

^ See what Piccolo says in the bottom-most left panel.

Hell, I'll prove the consistency with another scan.

^ He has never dreamed of such a blast.

Whoever thought it was wise to say Ki is latent energy and to make that official (Akira and his writers) didn't understand physics at all. This was their own demise, coming up against someone who does know physics...or at least, a bit about it ;) If you want to use physics terms to explain Ki, then you'll have to stick to physics and how it works as we know it up to a certain point. I've just covered that in full.

Not from the Source material. No scans backing your claim. Don't build up illogical headcanon.

Hell, Master Roshi blew up the moon with a power level of just 138. And Goku's official power level at a SSJ1 against Freeza was a staggering 150,000,000. How did Roshi's latent Energy skyrocket excess of how many atoms can split during a nuclear ignition? A quote from authentic physicists:

I debunked the power level. Power levels are bullshit. Any Moon level feat below Piccolo's feat is a perfect example of an outlier. Hell Piccolos Moon busting itself is arguably an outlier. As I proved "proof with scans".

Your entire argument is now Moot.

Bottom line is power levels are bullshit and your scaling is flawed and some of your arguments are not using facts from the source material.

Well, to start off he is way more durable than Superman who is way more durable than Goku. In Superman the Doomsday wars he was no selling Orions Astro Force which has shown the ability to KO Superman.

Moving on and proving the same point with more scans. He no sells a speedblitz from Supergirl and Starman's blast. Supergirl has hurt Superman easily with a speedblitz (can provide scans if need be) also heat vision is an energy attack. Superman was hurt by Supergirl energy projection. Superman has way more durability feats than Goku. Point is DD is no selling attacks that hurt and in some cases leave him completely dazed or KO him.

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Here is another time from the same Comic no selling The Full blast of Astro Force.

No just Supergirls heat vision he no sells Supermans heat vision and regenerates instantly from piercing wounds as well.

He also tanks and no sells hits from Superman.

Here is HP Doomsday DYING from 1/5 of a planet buster and being hurled away by just the equivalent of 1 million nukes...just one million was enough to totally wreck Superman and Doomsday into shock for a short time. Imagine what 600 billion (Roshi's moon buster requires 600 billion nukes) times one million (SSJ1 Goku is 1 million times as powerful) times 2 ( SSJ2 is twice SSJ1 in power) times 4 (SSJ3 is 4 times the power of SSJ2) would do to HP Doomsday. And that isn't even taking into account the power level differentials between his training. I am giving the absolute minimums possible.

Lol No. Don't say invalid things and make me laugh. He no sold the explosion and Superman was almost KOd by Doomsday before other than that he also tanked it without getting KOd while being extremely weakened. It was only Superman who was bothered by it not Doomsday and Superman was bothered because he was already "almost unconscious" due to Doomsday striking him.

If doomsday can't handle 1/5 of a planet buster originally, and 1 million nukes send him and Superman hurdling away in a daze and stunned...

He did not, he adapted to it and was no selling his energy projection.

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what would SSJ3 Goku do by comparison?

He can't do anything.

For starters. He has Kod Heralds and High tiers without a problem.

List of People KOd.

• Kyle Rayner (auto shields were no selling plane busting blunt force as a rookie)
• Wonder Woman (can take one hit from Superman)
• Martian Manhunter (can phase and Tank Big Bards Mega Rod).

Here in Justice-League-of-America #55 He wrecks and dispatches Alpha Lantern Boodika in a single hit.

Also, Green Lanterns auto shielding guards them against planet busting attacks. They actually no sell that. But let me show you what Doomsday does to Top Tier herald level Green Lanterns.

Well, he Knocks them out. Kyle Rayner. Who has no sold planet busting on ground zero.

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Here are a bunch of fodder Green Lanterns no selling planet busting on Ground Zero due to auto shielding. The-Green-Lantern-Corps/Issue-218.

Here is another one of his most famous feat.

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^ After adapting to Omega beams he pretty much 2 shots Darkseid dispatching him and putting him in a dying condition.

He doesn't move as fast as Superman and characters like him, but he is easily capable of reacting to them in combat.

Individually or collectively it doesn't bother him. Not to mention 2 of the characters here Martian Manhunter and Flash are faster than Goku even SSJ3 by feats. So pretty much seals the deal in my favor.

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• Scan 1: Adapts to omega beams. Superman-Doomsday-Hunter-Prey/Issue-1.
• Scan 2: Adapts to Astro force harness which has caused molecular level destruction by feats. Superman-The-Doomsday-Wars.
• Scan 3: Adapts to hax of Golden Lasso and doesn't take the commands. Superman-The-Doomsday-Wars.
• Scan 4: Adapts to Martian Manhunters Phasing powers. Superman-The-Doomsday-Wars.
• Scan 5: Adapts to moving and with speed in space. Justice-League-of-America-#55.

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Adapts to get poisonous retractable bone claws the same poison that affects Superman (GG) and same piercing that pierces Superman (GG). Also adapts to ultrasonic attacks.

Well, that's it for now. I will have more adaptation feats if need be.

Latent Energy requires a phase transition to be used, which is the conversion of an X molecule to a Y. Or, basically the converting a gas to a liquid, etc, or Goku's latent energy to a Kamehameha. That conversion requires energy and power to drive it, or some cause to affect it. One atomic bomb splits 6.02x10^23 atoms in a chain reaction during its explosion. In the human body, there are 7*1027

Well, I just proved that DBZ characters can't have enough energy in their bodies to perform the feats they do without external, supernatural or magical help. Somehow, Roshi and other DBZ characters can output 600 billion times just one nuclear blast ignition sequence of the splitting of atoms worth of latent energy, when just one bomb far exceeds the number of atoms that end up being split inside a human body. There are 7*10^27 atoms in the human body and it takes a number far, far in excess of this to destroy just the moon. Even if every atom in Roshi's body split like in an atomic blast, it would require so many more atoms to achieve a moon buster level nuclear blast, that a normal calculator can't fit the result and it gives me the middle finger instead...

Proof from the source material needed and scans needed.

So take that giant number above and multiply it by 600 billion, and now you have the amount of power that Roshi is capable of with only a power level of 138. Multiply that by 1 million, and you get to where Goku was when he first turned Super Saiyan. Double that for a bare minimum for SSJ2. Multiple that by 4x and you get the absolute minimum amount of energy that Goku as an SSJ3 can put out of his body with latent energy. Does this sound absurd? That is because physics says it can't happen without things that break physics. Goku is using an ungodly amount more latent energy than the atoms inside his body that exist. What breaks physics again...?

Your math is flawed like I showed. Stop this power level bullshit. Farmer had a power level of 5 in DBZ. That would put Roshi 27 times stronger than a farmer. Also, the only single feat you are scaling from is an outlier and rest of the stuff mentioned is a headcanon no scans no citation no evidence has been provided from the source material.

I need readers in this CaV and my opponent to really think about this. How does Goku output more power than what latent energy is capable of? It can't come from physics and molecules, their bodies just don't have enough of them to reproduce the same level of explosive power that a nuclear blast would need to destroy the moon. So, it comes from another place entirely. And that is magic, supernatural, something mystical. They just can't store that amount of energy inside themselves without something physics breaking helping out.

Back when Goku was a kid, he used a Dragonfist/Oozaru fist attack against King Piccolo...which manifested an immaterial figure of an Ozzaru behind him. Goku had mystical and magical attacks even back when he was a kid. As we all know...Kryptonians have issues with Magic and Mystical things. Doomsday is Kryptonian and shares those same issues.

Whoever thought it was wise to say Ki is latent energy and to make that official (Akira and his writers) didn't understand physics at all. This was their own demise, coming up against someone who does know physics...or at least, a bit about it ;) If you want to use physics terms to explain Ki, then you'll have to stick to physics and how it works as we know it up to a certain point. I've just covered that in full.

Magic is different in Dragon Ball. LOL. KI is not magic. I am beginning to think, you haven't even watched Dragon Ball. Magic is what Bibidi and Babidi used. Ki is just life force energy.

I am so sorry for destroying anyone's outlook on how Ki works. But, Akira and his writers insisted on using physics terms to explain what Ki is by saying it is latent energy. So, if it is latent energy, it follows how physics applies to latent energy and the fact of the matter is if every single atom split inside Goku's body, just like how a nuclear explosion occurs, you'd need to multiply the number of atoms in the human/saiyan body by a massive factor to account for the explosive power required to just destroy the moon. That is just the moon. Not the Earth. Not the sun. Not the solar system and not portions of the Galaxy...which SSJ3 may be capable of. There aren't enough atoms in the body to account for all that storage of energy, so that energy comes from somewhere else. This was proven 100% true when Goku learned the KioKen, a technique that manifests extra power out of pure nothing...?

LOL at SSJ3 being Galaxy level. Also, Proof from the source material needed, it should be from the dragon ball manga not in your head.

Kryptonians are super weak against Magic and divinity. Especially Divine techniques and usages of matter and energy manipulations. There is a massive difference between physics control, magic, and divine powers from the likes of Lucifer, Michael , and similar angelic, godly beings. Goku learned the KioKen...from a deity, that gifts him powers from nowhere and a place where physics met its limitations and required something extra.

Doomsday is not Superman and Goku is not having any magic.

To sum up...Goku is a 180lb wrecking ball made of pure divine and magical power that can invoke magical abilities that Doomsday has never once been hit with in Hunter/Prey. Doomsday will be slaughtered by a man who can teleport, hit with the force of billions of nuclear bombs + and more. Doomsday has never been hit with anything divinely inspired and was not hit with magic during the events of HP at all. So, the first blast from Goku is going to totally destroy Doomsday on the cellular level.

Proof from the source material needed, it should be from the dragon ball manga not in your head.

I've shown you that Roshi hits with the force of 600 billion nuclear blasts. This feat is canon. He blew it up. And to do so would require 600 billion nuclear Tsar Bombs to do it. I've cited official sources that state what Ki is. It is latent energy and I went on to show you how energy is stored within latent energy. That storage is through atoms and released through atomic processes. In this case, I used the largest possible, a nuclear atom splitting reaction, to showcase the level of atoms that need to split in order to achieve the same released energy that 600 billion nuclear bombs would. The Human body and Saiyan Body simply dont have enough, all of Goku and Roshi's cells would have every atom inside them be required to split at the same time, going full nuclear individually, just to match Roshi's 600 billion nuke requirement to destroy the moon.

Countered the Moon busting outlier feat from Roshi. As for how KI that's now how Ki works lmfao. For all this non-feat based headcanon. Your argument should be based on facts and feats from the source material.

Math is fun. Objectively, according to physics and how latent energy works, Doomsday can't handle a moon buster attack or a 1/5 of a planet destroying attack. Hunter Prey literally states clear a bell "1/5 of a planet buster killed Doomsday. And after he adapted, one million nuclear bombs were too much for him to handle and was blown off along with Superman. This is objective information right out of the comic book telling us exactly what their limits were. SSJ3 Goku can destroy...well...I'll show you how many Earths he can destroy in my rebuttal.

Nothing you have shown in your argument actually backs up this conclusion. Now just see my conclusion.

My opponent has stated these following quotes in italics. My responses are denoted with a - mark

"power levels are BS"

- Where is your proof? I respect your opinion. But that is just your opinion and your argument on this is "cuz I think so". Cold hard facts, please. Your debunk is based completely on your subjective opinion without even one piece of evidence to back it up.

"Also, that is an outlier. Hell, Piccolos Moon busting is arguably an outlier. Let's look at the scans.".

- Where is your proof? What constitutes outlier? Arguably? You didn't argue anything. You just stated it is arguable. Well...then argue it and why you feel it is true. Give me facts that back it up. You gave nothing. So you debunked nothing. What is canon and what isn't? You've shown me nothing in the way of official resources that denote that your opinion is grounded in any factual data. Fan theory on what is an outlier is just that, total fan theory. Your opinion is irrelevant to the argument at hand. You've not provided any backing to your statements at all. Again, your argument on this is "Cuz I think so" and it just isn't a valid argument at all.

"Not to mention low mountain level blasts were impressive even in Saiyan Saga. Frieza was the first planet buster."

- Huh? Are you talking about Vegeta being shocked that someone from Earth could do that, and Piccolo shocked that Vegeta and Radditz can do what they did? Cool, because here is Vegeta with a power level of roughly 20,000 that is going to destroy the entire planet.

"See what Piccolo says in the bottom-most left panel. Hell, I'll prove the consistency with another scan."

- Again...huh? Piccolo saying "what power!" said Piccolo. What on earth is your argument there for consistency? We were just talking about power levels and you showed me a scan of Piccolo impressed...by someones power level. This is Piccolo amazed by Vegeta's power. Piccolo is easily the most ki sensitive character in the entire series, who can even sense the depth of Majin Buu and even up to Jiren in Dragonball Super. Your scan of consistency is showing the character power progression. You are literally making my argument for me by showing characters getting more powerful over time...so...thanks, I guess? Here are just a few of the references of power levels. You've said none of this matters. Yet, here are all the characters who think it matters in the story. Your opinion does not trump what the characters state as facts in the series.

Here is Piccolo stating they can wipe planets out early on before SSJ3 rolls in...years and years before that. So, I don't really follow your argument at all here. Piccolo is the guy who talks about power levels and destruction powers more than anyone in the entire series. Doomsday was wiped out by 1/5 of a planetary destruction level blast from a type of energy he hadn't faced yet.

I think you are confusing power levels mattering beyond a certain point and that power levels are actually an integral part of the show. Do you know how many references to power levels exist in this manga all the way up to Super? There are a ton. Here are just a few. You've stated power levels dont matter yet here are characters throughout the entire series all the way up to the Buu saga talking about how important power levels are.

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"Not from the Source material. No scans backing your claim. Don't build up illogical headcanon."

- I literally copy and pasted a text interview from the creator of the series talking about what Ki is. And you are telling me that because I didn't snapshot the original text of the newspaper...that it isn't legitimate? Again, you use subjective words like Illogical. What is illogical about it when the creator tells you flat out that is how it is. Your opinion doesn't trump Akira Toryama explaining it for everyone. What is your argument here and you didn't debunk anything about it? You need to prove that Akira didn't state this. Your opinion on the validity of it isn't at all relevant to the argument at hand. You are supposed to debunk with facts and undeniable proof. Your opinion is all I've received so far and we've only just begun to debunk your debunk attempt.

"I debunked the power level. Power levels are bullshit. Any Moon level feat below Piccolo's feat is a perfect example of an outlier. Hell Piccolos Moon busting itself is arguably an outlier.As I proved "proof with scans". Your entire argument is now Moot. Bottom line is power levels are bullshit and your scaling is flawed and some of your arguments are not using facts from the source material."

-This is my opponent's opinion and not grounded in actual fact. I am noticing only total subjectivity and nothing objective in that counter-argument you posted. Where are the facts? Not a single one was provided and your interpretation of the scans are irrelevant. Firstly, power levels are the core of the entire series with many characters referencing them over the entire course of the story all the way to the end of the tournament of power. You provided zero proof to what is an outlier and what is not. This is 100% your opinion. Where are your facts from authors and story writers that showcase power levels are a mute point? You literally didn't argue a single point I made and actually think your opinion trumps AKIRA TORYAMA EXPLAINING WHAT KI IS.

Not one piece of your debunk was an actual debunk that used even one piece of legitimate evidence. Your opinion does not equate to a valid or good argument.

I see that you totally ignored the only two references to any powers used in the entire Huntey Prey issue series. You are reaching out to other feats from other stories in the past and that is just fine. However, in the actual Hunter Prey comic book, it states clear as day that Doomsday cannot handle 1/5 of the power required to destroy a planet. Where was your argument on that point? Your argument was showing more inconsistent feats from other stories that are not congruent with Hunter Prey. Again I will show you the references directly from the comic

Here, The Radiant states 1/5 of a planet destruction energy blast killed Doomsday. He died. And then came back after losing the battle a long time after. You've ignored this point entirely. I shouldn't have to showcase this twice. But, since I think you missed out on this point originally, I will have to showcase both again.

Here is a copy of a point directly from Hunter Prey that says Doomsday was murdered by the Radiant using a blast that was capable of destroying 1/5 of a planet.

After this. Doomsday is killed. He is jettisoned into space. X amount of time he is found by a space pirate rogue group that works for Darkseid. Doomsday wakes up and kills the crew and pilots it right back to Calaton. Yep. There, he fights the Radiant again and defeats him. Superman arrives a short time later and then this happens below. Here, both Superman and Doomsday were hurled away from the detonation of a blast that is equal to the force of just one million nuclear bombs.

Your response to this was the following:

"Lol No. Don't say invalid things and make me laugh. He no sold the explosion and Superman was almost KOd by Doomsday before other than that he also tanked it without getting KOd while being extremely weakened. It was only Superman who was bothered by it not Doomsday and Superman was bothered because he was already "almost unconscious" due to Doomsday striking him."

- Sorry. Again. Your proof? Why are all of your arguments "cuz I think so, but I don't need facts and panels from comics or any media at all to back them up."? So far, you have not shown me any evidence. I think you are missing the point here. One Million Nukes hurled Doomsday and Superman away like ragdolls and yes, Doomsday got back up. But you are missing the point. Why didn't you answer my questions I posed? I asked what would happen to Doomsday if he were hit by 600 billion nuclear bombs? The same force required to destroy our moon? You didn't answer. I asked you then what happens when Doomsday gets hit by spiritual energy that can impact with the force of beyond 600 billion nukes. You didn't answer. You had no argument at all.

Doomsdays striking isn't really relevant because of what you said originally in the rules of engagement. Both are in character. And if both are in character and determined to win, then Goku is going to blast him with an energy attack and not melee him. Why? Because everyone in Dragonball finished every single villain with an energy blast and not a melee strike that was a major story plot villain. All of them. Every single major villain fight ended in an energy based attack. Piccolo killed Radditz with an Energy blast, Vegeta was taken out by a Kamehameha, Cell was destroyed by a Kamehama, Buu as well etc. etc. Your argument is invalid. Goku won't stand and melee so Doomsdays striking is useless. Goku is going to fire a blast of spiritual energy that Doomsday had never been hit with before. Again, you provided no proof to a single instance of Doomsday getting his with Ki/Chi/Spiritual Power. Not one scan, not one interview, nothing.

Radiant proves that 1/5 of a planetary destruction level impact will kill Doomsday if he hasn't adapted to it. I need you to prove otherwise. So far, you have not. Not a single one of your scans showcased what Doomsdays limits were when he hasn't adapted yet. And even after he adapted, it was only one million nuclear blasts worth of energy that tossed him away like he was a ping pong ball. Where is your argument on that? Here are a ton of references that state the power required to destroy the moon. 500/600 Tsar Bombs, as corroborated by dozens upon dozens of websites and scientists talking about it and the amount required for planetary destruction.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+nuclear+bombs+to+blow+up+the+moon&oq=how+many+nuc&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59l2j69i60l2j69i61.3183j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CerozsNjgw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFtYCYpqfbo

Just for giggles. There are a few Youtube videos talking about it.

Goku literally punches Freeza so hard that it ruptures his organs and Freeza survives a large planetary explosion. Freeza blows up planets. Doomsday cannot handle 1/5 of a planetary explosion from a type of energy he hasn't been hit with. Do you see where I am going with this?

What is your argument on how this works and what is your evidence? What is your evidence in factual grounded data and scans and interviews that states clearly that Goku and Freeza can wipe planets out with Ki, and those impacts can strike the other and they sorta brush it off often. But, that saying their physical striking power is not on par with their Ki impacts power is just too far. I would like to see...gosh, one argument using valid objective data from my opponent on something by this point. Something not subjective and opinion based. Where are the facts that physical strikes are not as powerful as ki blasts. Freeza demonstrated he can wipe out planet vegeta already. SSJ3 Goku is far more powerful. So if their Ki impacts can do that and hit with planetary destruction level, what is your argument for their physical striking not doing the same or more?

Again. Doomsday was murdered by 1/5 of what Freeza did casually. Here is Kid Buu casually wiping planets out

Here is Goku tanking Kid Buu and beating him.

The Conclusion? Ki Attacks destroy planets all the way back in the Saiyan Saga and this battle is against SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Saga. the Comic books showcased 1/5 of a planetary destruction energy blast being too much for Doomsday. You didn't address this issue. I showed you Freeza destroying Namek and Planet Vegeta casually in his weakest form. And Majin Buu doing the same, which went toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku. These feats best Doomsday's durability cap for things he has not adapted to yet. You are arguing all the things he has already adapted to and my initial post was all about one type of energy he hasn't. I then took it further and showed you that even against a type of energy he can withstand, only one million nuclear bombs were enough to toss him around like a rag doll.

Roshi ran the 100 meter dash in 5.6 seconds.

Goku's official power level as an SSJ1 is 150,000,000. That is 1086956.52174x what Master Roshi's was.

5.6/100meter distance = 64kmph.

Goku is over a million times as powerful. He runs that in 0.000005152 seconds, or 0.06474 times the speed of light, 69,875,776kmph

Show me direct statements for Doomsday in speed. Your argument is completely empty. You literally didn't have one. At least I am giving some factual data here and using the little bit of information we do have in power scaling up to the Freeza Saga. My opponent abandoned the debate of speed entirely and left it empty.

You failed to show where Doomsday was hit with spiritual energy. He hasnt adapted to it yet. Next.

My opponents quotes are in italics.

"Proof from the source material needed and scans needed."

-I literally copy and pasted the creator of the series talking about the issue and confirming what I said. You have no argument there.

"Your math is flawed like I showed. Stop this power level bullshit. Farmer had a power level of 5 in DBZ. That would put Roshi 27 times stronger than a farmer. Also, the only single feat you are scaling from is an outlier and rest of the stuff mentioned is a headcanon no scans no citation no evidence has been provided from the source material."

- Show me, then. Again, your opinion isn't valid. You used no concrete evidence to show why it is flawed. Your argument was actually "nuh uhhh". Where is your evidence for it being flawed? Your argument is that your opinion is that you think it is flawed?

"Magic is different in Dragon Ball. LOL. KI is not magic. I am beginning to think, you haven't even watched Dragon Ball. Magic is what Bibidi and Babidi used. Ki is just life force energy."

- Akira Toryama disagrees with you. You are stuck on it being magic when my point was that it was something Spiritual in nature that Doomsday hasn't adapted to you. Again, an argument you had no evidence to claim any counterpoint to.

"LOL at SSJ3 being Galaxy level. Also, Proof from the source material needed, it should be from the dragon ball manga not in your head."

-Every single one of your counterpoints was generated from your opinion. Also, never said he was Galaxy level, I said maybe.

"Doomsday is not Superman and Goku is not having any magic."

"proof from the source material needed, it should be from the dragon ball manga not in your head."

- Already did. KioKen is taught by a deity in the afterlife that manifests extra energy to the user. You are just saying what your opinion is and claiming that energy that comes from nothing is normal energy. It isn't. It is coming from something else. So...what is your explanation? You never gave it. You didn't address it at all and just say Nuh Uhh, I'm wrong.

"Countered the Moon busting outlier feat from Roshi. As for how KI that's now how Ki works lmfao. For all this non-feat based headcanon. Your argument should be based on facts and feats from the source material."

- Again. Just like every other one of your counterarguments, it's not backed up with any evidence. Where is your evidence? Where are your calculations? Where are your author statements? Where are your scans from Dragonball? You didn't post a single scan from Dragonball that counters anything I said. Not one point you made had a real counter argument outside of you claiming your opinion is law. You claimed it is outlier. There are no official sources that state that was indeed an outlier. You are just making up your own belief system and casting it down without a shred of actual author statements or scans proving what you are saying.

I just addressed almost every line of your entire argument and didn't see anything from any official source on your end. You didn't post a single interview. Nor a science expert talking about how latent energy works. You didn't show me where Akira backtracked, because he did state clear as day Ki is spiritual energy. You didn't show me where Doomsday was hit with that type of energy in the past. You didn't show me a single speed calculation at all, your entire area was literally empty on speed, at least I tried to showcase something based on the little bits of info we do have. You failed to explain or even address why 1/5 of a planetary energy blast was enough to kill Doomsday. You didn't disprove Roshi's moon buster feat. You didn't disprove a single planetary destructive force in Dragonball, not the Freeza impact, not the Buu impacts. Nothing at all was stated on your part in a counter argument. You didn't explain how or why Doomday was ragdolled by a million nukes. You didn't show me why certain events were outlier to you. You didn't explain why Goku's energy instructed to him by literal Gods in the afterlife wouldn't be spiritual power based. There is a lot you didn't have an argument for.

99% of what you typed was your subjective opinion. I used facts, attempted calculations based on the numbers available and showcased planet destruction feats. You didnt do any of that.

SSJ3 Goku can obliterate planets with ease and Doomsday was obliterated by the energy he hasnt adapted to that was equivalent to the force required to wipe out just 1/5 of a planet. This isn't about Doomsdays striking or even speed. You didn't show me where Doomsday would want to even dodge that giant Kamehameha coming at him. He is gonna just stand there and try to tank it cuz he is brainless and mindless. He was never hit by Spiritual Energy and you provided ZERO argument to the contrary.

Goku fires one blast and that obliterates Doomsday and it has nothing to do with speed or durability. Doomsday is much stronger and more durable than Goku. However, if Dr. Strange punched Superman with a magic attack, it is going to hurt. Because he is weak to it. Doomsdays weakness is anything that he hasn't adapted to.

Doomsday hasn't ever encountered Chi, or spiritual based Ki. He meets his end fairly quickly by a determined Goku. And he is going to get slammed with something he has never adapted to on absurdly high levels of power that are far in excess of what murdered him outright before.

Why I Mentioned the Physics of Spirit Powe and my last argument for rebuttals.

It worries me greatly that you asked me to post official statements for everything I was arguing and I didn't see anything from you in the way of anything official to prove your side. The entire reason why I was fine taking this CaV was that I knew you'd have no argument against Doomsday getting his with Chi and Spiritual Energy. He simply hasn't adapted to it. This isn't an argument and CaV against Superman. I want to briefly summarize the arguments I posted and your responses to them.

1. I argued that spiritual energy is not stored in the body or the cells of any being. You say nuh uh and didn't disprove my physics explanation at all.

2. I argued that the number of atoms in a saiyan/human body cannot output the level of energy required to detonate a moon, even if they were to all split and go nuclear, which is the largest amount of energy release possible that we know of. I cited physics articles proving 600 billion nuclear bombs is required to destroy the moon. Your counter was nuh uh without disproving it.

3. I said Doomsday is Kryptonian and therefore has weakness to magic. I covered the possibility that Ki is magical based and so is KioKen. My argument was that a deity in the after life showed him a way to gather energy from pure nothingness. Your counter was nuh uh, without telling anyone why you believe that is the case. You cited no official sources stating KioKen wasn't ethereal in nature.

4. I argued that Goku is far beyond a planetary destruction level. You argued that power levels are "BS", despite me showing you scans from the official canon manga that power levels are important and talked about all the way up to the Buu Saga. From King Piccolo, all the way to Dabura. Your counter was still to ignore that completely and insist your view and opinion is law, without showing a single scan or interview with any official DB writer telling you that Power Level's are BS.

5. I argued that Doomsday was murdered outright by 1/5 of a planetary destruction level of energy prior to him adapting. My argument was that the comic showed you clearly what his limits are when he hasn't adapted to it yet. Your counter was...to just not talk about it and show how hard Superman hits instead.

6. I showed you with scans directly from the comics that a million nuclear bombs ragdolls Superman and Doomsday and your counter was that they were both fine. They were indeed both fine afterward, but that wasn't my argument. You didn't read it. My argument was that they were flung away like ping pong balls by only 1 million nuclear bombs. My question was what happens when 600 billion nuclear bombs go off on top of Doomsday that came from a source of energy he has not adapted to yet. Your counter was nothing. You didn't address it with any scans, interviews or sources proving that Ki isn't spiritual power. I cited AKIRA TORYAMA STATING IT WAS SPIRITUAL POWER. You had the best possible source linked to you on the subject and had chosen to ignore it completely.

7. You left Doomsdays speed factor completely out of it. Your section on Speed was literally blank.

8. You were citing Piccolo saying "wow, such power" as some odd way of actually helping your case, when the context of the scan wasn't shown by you. You didn't tell anyone that the scan was piccolo literally impressed with...the enemy power level. Your argument on this subject was that power levels are BS and the scan you used to justify it was a scan of piccolo impressed by the power level of another.

9. You didn't explain how or why Doomsday would even want to dodge anything or why Goku wouldn't use a massive Ki attack and not Melee. I showed you that Goku used energy for every single major villain he has ever fought and Doomsday literally standing there and walking into everything thrown at him. You had no argument or rebuttal on this. The most logical scenario of the battle was not even touched on in your counter-argument.

10. You are citing sources of inconsistency throughout DC comics history and did not address the shortcomings I offered you in Hunter Prey. Your argument on them was totally empty of any source material that I linked to via scans. Your counter to Doomsdays 1/5 of a planet destruction and one million nuclear bomb equivalent of durability wasn't even addressed. Your counter was to showcase other feats instead while dancing around the primary issues of his weakest showcasings of power.

-Not a single interview was posted by you. You did zero calculations. You didn't address Spiritual energy being a new form of energy that Doomsday has not encountered...and you told everyone reading that Akira Toryama's statements on what Ki is and how it works...is a mute point. This is the first time I've ever read a CaV or anything in a thread where the creator of a fictional anything clearly stated something...and the opposing side actually said nah, my opinion > The creator.