CaV: Eight Kings (vsw) vs Neron (HigherPower) - Voting Open

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HigherPower

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#1  Edited By HigherPower

The Eight Kings

No Caption Provided

Represented by @vsw

Neron

No Caption Provided

Represented by yours truly

Rules

  • Standard gear and morals
  • Random encounter
  • Fight to ko/incap/death
  • Start 100 meters apart
  • Takes place on an indestructible planet

Location

No Caption Provided

Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won

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HigherPower

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@vsw I can have my opener up by the weekend. Let me know if there's anything you'd like to change.

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vsw

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@higherpower: for once I actually got a tag in the OP, anyway, looks great.

Do you wanna go first, or shall I?

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HigherPower

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#4  Edited By HigherPower

@vsw: get ninja'd

No Caption Provided

And yeah I'll start. Looking forward to this :)

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vsw

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#5  Edited By vsw

@higherpower:

did you just beat me by 3 seconds?.......

Lol, anyway, Really looking forward to it.

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Kevd4wg

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juiceboks

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#7  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

Neron? Cool. T4V

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deactivated-5c443c2a6994d

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Tag after every post

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deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15

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tag after every post

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baph

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Tag.

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shirso

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Tag

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EmpressOfDread

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vsw

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Bump for more voters

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HigherPower

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#14  Edited By HigherPower

Neron

No Caption Provided

Neron is a powerful demon and a Lord of Hell. He's a villain I've taken a liking to particularly for his suave masculinity and fantastic character design. (That color scheme oozes evil brilliance and his cape gives me a pang of nostalgia.) Neron is basically the Devil; he sweet talks super-villains' and heroes alike into selling him their souls in exchange for their "heart's desire". This is something that proved to be his downfall in Mark Waid's Underworld Unleashed story line, wherein he was duped by the Trickster into accepting an altruistic offer of Captain Marvel's soul which at the time was uncorrupted.

In this debate, my role will be to prove to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury exactly why and how Neron beats the Eight Kings. This may prove to be a tall order, mostly because the Eight Kings are a marvelously powerful group of individual's who've earned their stripes as a force to be reckoned with on these forums. Unfortunately, I don't think they've ever encountered anyone like Neron.

General Showings

Right out the gate, being a JLA teambuster isn't exactly a new or show-stopping event anymore, so I don't expect your eyes to light up upon finding out that Neron has steamrolled Earth's costumed champions. Nonetheless, these next few showings should lend some credence to his name.

In Underworld Unleashed (1995) #1—Neron's first appearance ever—he utterly stomps Mongul The Elder into submission with a couple blows, the final punch breaking his neck. Without hesitation, Neron then rips out his soul and consumes it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

To bring you up to speed, at this point in the story Neron had gathered some of the world's most notorious villains into his lair (Hell) for a briefing. Using his Inner Council as an example (Circe, Polaris, Joker, Kadabra and Lex Luthor), he spoke to the villains about how they were failures who squandered their potential, and how he had the ability to change the narrative. He then struck a bargain and promised them the power to achieve their "hearts desire" in exchange for their souls.

No Caption Provided
Underworld Unleashed #1
Underworld Unleashed #1

So basically, Mongul got triggered at being called a failure and charged him, only to get beat to death in a few pages. For some further context, this is impressive because it was the same Mongul who beat the crap out of rookie Kyle Rayner and was about to kill him if Superman hadn't intervened.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8
Green Lantern (1990) #52-53

Speaking of Kyle, Neron does something similar to him in the following issue, where he encounters the young Lantern and beats the ever-loving shit out of him after no-selling his attacks.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
Underworld Unleashed (1995) #2

Kyle himself recounts the beating Neron gave him and gives a short summary of it in Green Lantern (1990) #69, after being questioned by his girlfriend Donna.

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Green Lantern (1990) #69

The baseline feat for all of these feats is the fact that rookie Kyle Rayner (early-mid 90s, towards the beginnig of his career as a Lantern) was able to destroy Planet Oa with one blast and subsequently no-sell the planet's explosion. He did this to prevent a weakened Parallax Hal Jordan from powering up through using Oa as a battery.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Green Lantern (1990) #0

This should greatly shift all of the above feats into perspective.

Another Green Lantern that Neron has embarrassed is Alan Scott, the original GL who also has some pretty decent showings under his belt... and one of them happens to be treating Kyle Rayner like fodder (poor Kyle).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Underworld Unleashed: Abyss - Hell's Sentinel (1995) Full

What Neron actually does to him isn't even clear. Alan just desperately attacks him, and moments later he's the size of an action figure and he's strapped to Neron's chest while Neron is laughing his ass off. But this is honestly the clearest way to depict a gap in power levels. Neron didn't kill him because he doesn't even see him as a threat. He literally just kept him as a plaything. Sure enough, Alan was in the same condition in Waid's main Underworld comic. Which leads me to my next feat.

After Kyle was beat up in Underworld Unleashed #2, he went to assemble the JLA to stop Neron and his plans, most of them who already had the pleasure of meeting him. Together they forged a plan to raid Hell and rescue Superman, whom they thought was being imprisoned by Neron. After Blue Devil uses his candle to teleport some of the heavy-hitter JLA members to Hell, they fought off legion's of demonic spirits before encountering Neron, who Blue Devil attacks on sight due to his belief that Neron was involved in the untimely death of his lover, Marla Bloom. After Neron no-sells BD's attacks and one-shots him, he leads the JLA members into a room where they become mind-controlled (?) and attack Captain Marvel, who fights them off while amped on Lady Blaze's power before getting advice from Trickster to say a word that would change the tide of the battle... "Shazam".

After CA speaks the word, the JLA members are freed from the trance and dog-pile Neron. Warrior blasts Neron's chest and frees Alan Scott, who, along with the other members of the JLA, attack Neron all at once... only to have all of their attacks pretty much ignored and then get stomped.

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Underworld Unleashed #3

After all that, Neron commends their efforts but literally tells them that he was "quickly bored". For reference, this was the JLA roster that invaded hell.

No Caption Provided

Like I said at the beginning, I don't expect you to bowel over in amazement at Neron stomping high tiers and steamrolling the JLA. But someone who beats up guys who beats up planet busters and gets bored from stomping Wally West, Alan Scott, Martian Manhunter, Kyle Rayner, Captain Atom, Firestorm, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and more shouldn't be taken lightly either.

Conclusion

Neron doesn't have an abundance of feats so I decided to keep this post short. These are just some general feats to give you in idea of his tier of power. I'll post his best showings as the debate unfurls, and elucidate why he beats the Kings in my next post.

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vsw

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@higherpower: great opener as always.

Ill try to get something up by this weekend

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Kevd4wg

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God Damn, Neron is OP AF

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baph

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HitTheAssasin

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vsw

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@higherpower: Sorry for the wait, taking longer than I expected, Expect it Wednesday or Thursday.

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vsw

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#21  Edited By vsw

Sorry this took so Long, had a few Loose ends i needed to tie Before i could Start this, anyway Hopefully this post(And the debate in general) is a good Read!

The Eight Kings | Rulers of the Gourmet World

No Caption Provided

Collective Bio

In the Torikoverse, There consists a Planet called Earth which is several Times larger(300+) Than Ours. This Planet is split into 2, The Human world(Which consists of Humans, Obviously), And the Gourmet World, which has 7(8 if you count area 0) Continents Each Ruled by One of the Eight Kings; Area's 0-7. Thats pretty much all you need to Know when it comes to Bio, Though what you do need to know is the Size of the Planet; The Toriko Earth is Several times larger than Ours, Were actually given the exact dimensions of the Planet; 220,000Km:

You may not Know this, But the Toriko Planet is Several times Larger than Ours, its 220,000Km to be exact, while Our earth is only 40,000Km:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Also, id like to add the the Toriko Bedrock is covered in an energy absorbing Rock; Which absorbs every and any Type of energy, even Calories:

No Caption Provided

There's 2 main things to take away form this:

1. The Toriko earth is several times larger than Ours, so attacks that Barely damage their surface would absolutely Annihilate our Earth; Its very important you remember this, Or All feats that i post won't make sense.

2. The Toriko earth is basically covered in vibranium, Making the Feats of damaging the earth even More impressive.

And ill apologise Now for the Lach of feats; Most o the Eight kings only have 1 Apperance/showing, so they don't have a TON Of feats.

Part 1: Characters Run Down | Statistics, Abilities, and Techniques.

Now, i know a 8v1 Can get messy, so Ill try to keep things as neat as possible, while summarising each Section that I've Made. Now lemme just say That Not All of the Eight Kings have an abundance of Feats; Most are relatively Featless due to the fact that they've only had 1 Fight, So ill try to do my best to Showcase Them well.

Bambina

No Caption Provided

Striking/Energy Projection

Bambina is the Powerhouse of the Kings(Bar Guinness imo), with arguably the Best Striking feats out of all of 'em. For Starters, Bambina is a Master of Enbu; Enbu is a technique where One Unites all 60 Trillion of there Cells, and can be used to ward off Power:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Chapter 305
  • Scan 1-4 explains Enbu

Now, We get a Scan explaining That when One Uses All 60 Trillion of their cells(Enbu) in an attack, the Energy released would be enough to Crack Area 7; And if you remember from the Bio, Area 7 Is Much large than the Earth. Whats Even More to take in is that the Toriko Earth isn't like ours, Its covered in an Energy absorbing 'Bedrock' to say(Imagine Vibranium), Which Absorbs Energy, Making the Feat even More Impressive:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

  • Scan 2: Explains/showcases the Bedrock the Earth posses, and how it absorbs every type of Energy
  • Scan 1: Showcases what One using Enbu (Bambina also uses Enbu, so it becomes another Striking feat for him as well) In their attack can Crack a Continent Bigger than Earth, only a Planet which absorbs energy. Id Say its Fair to register Enbu Attacks to be Planet+ in the Minimum.

However, the 4 Heavenly Kings(Toriko, Sunny, Coco and Zebra, conpletely different Kings) combine their 60 Million Cells together , To Create a Union of 240 MILLION Cells. Seeing as 60 Million Cells allow Planet+ Capabilities, than 240 Million Should be Multi-Planet on the lowball, However Bambina easily Overpowers the 4 HK When using 240 Trillion Cells:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1: Show the 4HK Combing their 240 Million Cells(Chapter 313)
  • Scan 2: Bambina Casually Overpowering The 4HK(Chapter 314)

Other Impressive Feats Bambina possesses is Creating a Planet Sized AOE Slicing attack:

Chapter 312
Chapter 312

Something most people don't Remember is that despite being a Brick, Bambina Posses Excellent Energy Expulsion capabilities, As Seen below, He can create Huge Attacks(Which are Visible from Space, and they're size is easily Moon-Small Planet Level) and fire them rapidly:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Speed

Bambina is probably One of the Fastest of the Kings, he dodged 6 of Coco's Mold Spears up Close with relative Ease:

No Caption Provided

Now i know above it says they were nearly the Speed of Light, But that was a mistranslation, because originally they're Called LS, Making dodging 6 LS Projectiles Up Close FTL:

No Caption Provided

Durability

Bambina is an absolute Tank When it comes to Damage, In His SEALED Form he tanks Several Enbu Enhanced attacks from Sunny and Zebra(Need i not remind you i previously showcased in the First Section what Enbu does to your attacks, it boosts them to Plantary+):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Confirms Bambina was Sealed
  • Scan 2-4: Showcase Bambina tanking Enbu enhanced attacks.(Chapter 311)

Minor Abilites.

Intimidation

Intimidation is basically the art of using Your Bloodlust to cause Fear in your opponents, As Seen her, Bambina lets out his Bloodlust for less than a second, which causes Toriko, Sunny, Coco and zebra to have 30 years of their life flash before them:

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Bambini's Balls, PAIR, Allows for One Stamina to be recovered; Meaning he can use it when the Eight Kings need to recover strength or Heal:

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To Recap, Bambina's Uses in This Fight Is to:

  • Pressure Neron with Multi-Planetary Strength.
  • Use his FTL SpeedTo Overwhelm Nerons Reactions
  • Use Intimidation to cause Neron Fear.
  • Use PAIR To Help his Peers Recover Stamina when Needed

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Heracles

No Caption Provided

Strength

A Singular Kick from Heracles Hitting Troikas Blue Oni Creates a Planet sized Explosion:

Chapter 287
Chapter 287

I Should add that it also shook the Whole continent:

Chapter 287
Chapter 287

Breath

Now the Horse King Heracles has 2 Main Uses for Her Breath attacks:

1. Herac Breath

This Attack is Basically just Heracles releasing Massive gusts of Air which are Potent Enough to Bore Through the Toriko Earth; This has Been used on 2 Different Occasios, The First Against a Neo Spore:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Now, The Neo Spore is Pretty impressive on its own; Jirou confirmed that it has the Energy of a Large Planet(He would Know, seeing as he's almost Temporarily Knocked a Large Planet before):

No Caption Provided

He's Used Heracs Breath Another Time to Bore through the Earth and Hit Acacia:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Scans 1-4: Heracles Boring through the Earth; which in Turn creates a Planet sized Explosion(Keep in Mind the Toriko earth is essentially covered in vibranium), This Feat should be Plantary+

2. Destroy Breathe

Basically, Heacles Take a Big Breathe(Though its only a Tenth of what she usually inhales), Although this breathe is different, as it Creates a Vacuum around the Area Surrounding Heracles. Im not sure whether Neron can breathe in A Vacuum(So Space) But if he can't Then this is a Game ender already:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Durability

Tanked a Devil Fork from Troikas Blue demon, which i should Mention is powerful Enough to Split an Entire Continent:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1: Showcases How Strong a Demon Knife really is
  • Scan 2: Shows Heracles Tanking one.

Speed

Now, Heracles Actually reacted to Troikas Blue Oni; And puts up a Breathe Sheild(Although it doesn't Hold out), Which is impressive because the Blue no is fast enough to Keep up with Acacia:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1: Blue Oni matching his with Acacia; meaning he's fast enough to keep up with him.
  • Scan 2: Heracles Reacting to the Blue Oni

Acacai is FTL, As ill disclose in Next Section of Guinness Speed

To Recap, Heracles Use in this fight is to:

  • Overwhelm Neron physically Using his Planet Level striking, And Planteary+ Breath projection
  • Create a Vacuum to starve Neron of Oxygen(Whether this would work or not depends on whether Neron Need Oxygen to survive, we'll see)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Wolf King :Guinness

No Caption Provided

Without a Doubt, Guiness is the Strongest of the 8 Kings, Ill explain why now.......

Striking

Now Guiness Posses Striking Feats which Honestly Rival Bambina; His 'Wolf Step' Deforms andthen Uprises the Whole of Area 3 and 4; The resulting explosion is Easily Planetary+ Going on Multi Plantary(I need not remind you of the planets size):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Chapter 354
  • Scans 1-4: Showcase the Wold Kings Famous Wolf Stomp

Another instance he's done this is against Neo, with the resulting collision Around Multi-Planetary:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 376

Durability

Tanks a Hit From Acacia Via Catching it in this Mouth; Imo its both a Durability feta and a Speed Feat:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chaoter 376
  • Scans 1-2: Showcase Guinness Catching a Hit from Acacia

Now for Acacia Striking Strength, He manages to Punch Bambina(In his Sealed Form) Hard Enough that his Eye literally Left its Socket Bar Casually:

Chapter 377
Chapter 377

Now for Bambians Durability Feats in his Sealed Form he tanks Several Enbu Enhanced attacks from Sunny and Zebra(Need i not remind you i previously showcased in the First Section what Enbu does to your attacks, it boosts them to Plantary+):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Chapter 312
  • Scan 1: Confirms Bambina was Sealed
  • Scan 2-4: Showcase Bambina tanking Enbu enhanced attacks.(Chapter 311)

Speed

Catches Acacias Gourmet Punch:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 377
  • Scans 1-2: Guinness Tanking a Gourmet Punch

Now for Acacia Speed, We See Him Resist the Pull of the Whale King Moons Gravity; Which were explicitly Told has the same properties of a Black Hole, and requires you going FTL I order to resist it:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Chapter 377
  • Scan 1: Explains you must go FTL To resist Moons Gravity Pool
  • Scans 2-3: Acacia being uninfected by it.

Soul Sniff

Essentially, Guinness Sniff Allows him to Gain Information of the enemy; They're Cell type, DNA, Age Gender etc etc, and in the Process temporarily Pulls out their Soul for a While; It isn't really a Form of Soul attack, More of BFR:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 355

Below You'll See Guiness using this ability to Rip out the Soul of a Neo-Spawn:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 353

Whats More is, he resists having his Own Soul sucked out by Toriko, who attempts to Copy Guinness Ability; Essentially Neron ripping out Guiness Soul is a No go:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Chapter 355

To Recap, Guinness Use here is to:

  • Pressure Neron with Planetary+ to Multi-Plantery Striking
  • Use his Soul Sniff ability to K.O. Neron for a brief period of time, Allowing one of the Other Kings to Finish him off using their deadly Hax

Now, From here on Out the abundance of feats from the Eight kings will Drop; As i mentioned earlier they arent swimming in Feats, So ill do my best to Touch on Their Capabilities

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Snake King | Mother Snake

No Caption Provided

Speed

The Snake King is Capable at Moving at FTL Speeds, As were quite literally Told Below:

Chapter 381
Chapter 381

Acid Capabilities: Mother Lock.

Now, The Snake King posses the most extraordinary Acidic Capabilities in the World, Using its Technique 'Mother Lock' It amass all the Acid it posses into 1 Place:

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Chapter 381
  • Scans 1-2: Show Snake King using Mother Lock on Neo

If your wondering How Acidic the Acid is, it Manages to Melt Neo, who's withstanded the Heat of a Supernova:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 381
  • Scans 1-2: Explain that Mother Snake managed to Melt neo, who tanked the heat of a Supernova
  • Fun Fact, When the Snake King uses Mother Lock it becomes the size of a Small Planet.

To Recap, Snake Kings use her is:

  • To Swallow Neron at FTL Speeds while being distracted By the Other Kings
  • Use Acid to Melt Neron

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Whale King | Moon

No Caption Provided

Suction

The Whale Kings suction is So Powerful, you must be going FTL In order to escape it:

Chapter 377
Chapter 377

Durability

Now the Moon king is covered in a Meteor which acts as a king of Armour to say; It Portects him from a full Blown Attack From Acacia Using his 2 Handed Gourmet Hammer:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Chapter 377
  • Scans 1-3: Acacia Hitting Moon covered in the Meteorite; He breaks it but it doesn't effect Moon

As for Acacia Striking, With ONE HAND He manages to Punch Bambina(In his Sealed Form) Hard Enough that his Eye literally Left its Socket Bar Casually:

Chapter 377
Chapter 377

Now for Bambians Durability Feats in his Sealed Form he tanks Several Enbu Enhanced attacks from Sunny and Zebra(Need i not remind you i previously showcased in the First Section what Enbu does to your attacks, it boosts them to Plantary+):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Confirms Bambina was Sealed
  • Scan 2-4: Showcase Bambina tanking Enbu enhanced attacks.(Chapter 311)

Speed

Receives a Signal from the Snake King, And Reacts to It:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 381
  • Scans 1-2: Moon receiving a Signal from the Snake King, then acting accordingly

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Crow King | Emperor Crow

No Caption Provided

Poison

The Crow King has the most Potent Poison in the Land, It hits Neo-Spore with its Posion, Only for it to Stop thinking, Lose its objective, and dissipate due to the Poison effect(BTW, the Poison Casts itself through the Crow kings Shadow):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scans 1-2 Showcase the Crow Kings Poision in a action.

Again, sorry about the Lack of Feats.

Crow Kings Uses here:

  • To hit Neron with his Poision while he's distracted

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Deer King | Sky Deer

No Caption Provided

Time Manipulation

Essentially, Using a Reverse Back Channel the Deer King, Sky Deer can compress time so much into an Area of Warped Space, That a few Seconds outside is a Million years Inside:

No Caption Provided

Another time Sky Deer used this ability was Against Neo:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 378
  • Scans 1-2: Showcase Sky Deer using his Back channel against Neo, compressing 1 second into Thousands of years.

Deer King uses:

  • To Age Neron Millions of years in a few Seconds.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dragon King | Derious

No Caption Provided

Lastly, We have the Dragon king.

Extra-dimensional Laser

Now, This laser is FTL-MFTL, in the short timeframe of 1 Scan, It Travels a distance superior to the Toriko earths length, Then enters another Solar System, Only to go and destroy Some other Moon/Planets:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Scans 1-3: Showcase Derious using the Extra dimensional Laser.

Cutting Potency

Derious Tooth allows him to Pierce Acacia(Before having his head removed), The significance of this Feat is that Acacia has Tanked Multi-Planetary Slicing attacks from Toriko:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Scan 1: Shows Derious Piercing Acacia
  • Scans 2-3: Showcases Acacia tanking a Multi-Planatary Slicing attack from Toriko

Speed

Reacts to Acacia's Bull rush:

No Caption Provided

Derious Use Here is:

  • Pressure Neron with his Extra-dimensional Laser
  • Use his Teeth to Rip Neron to shreds.

Part II: Combined Feats

Essentially, this section will elaborate on all Feats done By the 8 Kings when fighting Together

Now, When the Eight Kings Work Togther and Fire a combined Energy Blast, the Result is Visible From Space; Easily Large Planet Level:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 380
  • Scans 1-2: Showcase 7/8 of the Kings firing and Energy attack, resulting in a Large explosion

Thats Pretty much the Only offensive move they've pulled off together(There's another But it Features the Likes of Sunny and Coco's Help, so i won't Showcase it), Though fun Fact, the Eight Kings are capable of Sending 'Signals' to each other, which allows them to sense each others movements; Essentially imagine TP:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Chaoter 381
  • Scans 1-3: Showcase the 8 Kings(Moon, Mother snake and Derious in this case) 'Sensing' each others Movements

Ill Save a few Feats for now, and bring them up later.

Part III: Initial Counters

Now, As you said Yourself, You haven't Shown Any of Nerons best Feats, So ill restrain myself from Countering your Oponer Too Much(And its pretty darn hard to find feats for him on the Web), As i Realise your Keeping his Best feats under Lock and Key for the moment....

The baseline feat for all of these feats is the fact that rookie Kyle Rayner (early-mid 90s, towards the beginnig of his career as a Lantern) was able to destroy Planet Oa with one blast and subsequently no-sell the planet's explosion. He did this to prevent a weakened Parallax Hal Jordan from powering up through using Oa as a battery.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Green Lantern (1990) #0

This should greatly shift all of the above feats into perspective.

Alright, Pretty much all your Scaling(So Far) Comes from this Feat; Which i have 2 Main issues with:

A: Kyle didn't Actually Destroy the Planet, He Overloaded the Battery, Which resulted in the Planet Explosion; Now i don't have Too much Knowledge on the Green Lantern Battery, But i doubt the amount of Energy Needed to Overload it would be Planetary . If a Battery Can Hold 100 Energy units, Kyle just needs to add 0.0001% of that Energy to overload it, Because to Overload something you just need to add an Amount of Energy thats > Then the Batteries Storage capabilities;

Long Story Short, Kyle doesn't Posses Planetary Energy Output(For now at least)

B: Is Oa the size of a regular Planet? Im Sorry, but i couldn't find the Size of it anywhere online, But basing it off Scaling to the size Of Kyle/Hal/Whoever it is in this Scan, they seem to be Dab Splat in the Centre of the Explosion, And it doesn't Look that Big:

No Caption Provided

C: Kyle Overloaded the Battery, which means the Explosion was an Energy attack...... I Hate to be 'That' King of Guy..... But Split Durability makes Mongul using his FIST(A.k.a, Blunt force) to Take down Kyle Become worthless. And Might i add, When Neron Fires a Beam at Kyle, He pretty much Tanks it, The only Attacks he Cannot tank are when Neron starts using His Fists+Energy Attacks Simultaneously. Now i have no clue whether its a Blunt Force attack, or an Energy attack(Or Both) But my money's On Blunt force.

As i said, Ill just keep this Short and Sweet, as your holding back your Big Guns(And there adimitdily wasn't That Much to Counter.

Part IV: Initial Strategy and Conclusion

Now I'm going to Touch on the Stratey i currently have in mind right Now. First, You should know the Starting distance is 100 Feet away; this may sound Big Initially, But when you actually See the Size of Heracles(Who Scales to the Height of the other Kings):

Mountains don't come up to this Womans Ankle
Mountains don't come up to this Womans Ankle

The Starting distance of 100 Feet is Very Small.....

Anyways, First, Bambina and Guiness engage in a Physical Battle; No i have No Clue whether or Not Neron can tank repeated Multi-Planetary Blunt force attacks(My money is on Not) So he'd Most likely Die; However by the Off chance he survives Guinness Would Attempts to use his Soul Sniff on Him, Now unless Neron has Resistance to Soul BFR, This is an instant K.O., As he'll be down for a Brief Second, Allowing either:

  • Snake King to Melt him using her potent Acid; Neron needs Damn good heat resistance feats in order to say this won't Effect Him, because it effected Someone who survived the Heat of a Supernova.
  • Crow King to use its Poison to Kill Neron-Again, Neron is going to need Vast Poision resistance in order to Say he can survive this.

Now i also have no Clue whether Neron is Immortal or Not, But the Sky Deer back channel compresses Millions of Years Into 1 Second; If Neron does Age, or doesn't posses any type of extreme Regen this will Flat out Kill Him, Plus theres Heracles Destroy Breathe which transfers the Surrounding areas into a Vacuum(No Clue wether he can breathe in Space or Not)....... Plus can Neron tank Huge Large Planet attacks like this?:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Plus when it comes to Piercing attacks, No one has anything on Derious, His Teeth Pierced Acacia(Who's tanked Piercing attacks Before), So Unless Neron Possees Incrible piercing durability he's getting Ripped to Shreds. Arguably Neron could probably beat anyone of the Eight kings individually; But unluckily for Him he Has to Deal With:

  • Multi-Planetary Physicals from Bambina and Guinness all at Once
  • Resting having his Soul Sniffed by Guinness
  • Resist The Snake Kings acid
  • Resist the Crow Kings Poison
  • Avoid Derious MFTL Beam, and his extremely Sharp Teeth
  • Dodge Heracles Herac Breaths.
  • Dodge Bambinas Planatery Blasts; Which he can Spam Rapidly
  • Keep up with the 8 Kings; They're all FTL (Most are, Im Assuming the rest are as they fought equally against the same Foe)
  • Sky Deers Time manipulation

So the 8 Kings win this battle like how they Win All they're battles, By Overwhelming and Overtaxing their opponents till They Slip up and die.

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#24  Edited By HigherPower

@vsw:

Round 2

No Caption Provided

The Eight Kings are pretty lethal because of their hax, so that's what I'll address in my counters. But for now, I want to exhibit Neron's ability to go physically intangible and phase through attacks. This ability hard counters predominantly physical fighters like Bambina, and those without hax that ignores physical aspects like Derous, Mother Snake and Emperor Crow.

The first time we see Neron go intangible and phase through something is in Underworld Unleashed #2, where he confronts Flash with a bargain. After Wally rejects his advances, he dashes towards Neron to strike him and goes straight through him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

It happens again later in the issue where he fights Kyle Rayner. Kyle fired a blast that passed through Neron's harmlessly.

No Caption Provided

However, the absolute best example of this ability was in Day of Judgement #5, where Neron phases through a bullrush from Captain Marvel while he was thrusting The Spear of Destiny.

No Caption Provided

For context, this was the exact same comic in which the Spear significantly harmed The Spectre.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Day of Judgement #4

I'm going to bring you up to speed on what makes that important. (It's context time!)

So basically, Day of Judgement was a mini-series written by Geoff Johns that took place after the events of Spectre Vol. 3 (1992) #36, in which Neron forcibly separated Spectre from his host at the time, Jim Corrigan, after blatantly overpowering them by breathing.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Spectre Vol. 3 (1992) #36

This is an uber impressive feat in itself for a few reasons. Before I divulge why, I want to acknowledge that it's not normally a good idea to scale off of Spectre since he jobs, but Jim Corrigan was definitely his most consistent host, and this was the same comic under the same writer who had Spectre breaking multiple planets like eggs in his fight with Azmodus on the astral plane.

No Caption Provided
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Spectre Vol. 3 (1992) #11

He only lost because he was distracted by his girlfriend Amy and Azmodus took advantage of his attention being divided. But yeah, under John Ostrander's pen, Spectre has multi-planet level strength and durability easily, and Neron pretty much treated him like fodder in their encounter.

Back to Day of Judgement. So at this time, Spectre didn't have a host since Neron separated him and Corrigan, and Etrigan took advantage of that by coercing Asmodel to fuse with him and gain revenge.

Day of Judgement #1
Day of Judgement #1

After Asmodel possessed Spectre with Etrigan's help, he went on a rampage and the only thing that could stop him was the Spear of Destiny. The amped Spectre froze Hell over and was teambusting squads left and right, including the JLA, JSA and the Sentinels of Magic. He no sold the combined attacks from pretty much every high tier worth their salt who was present on Earth at the time, and did hax things like transmute Superman to salt and Kyle Rayner to wood. Seriously, he was fodderizing and trolling everyone. Needless to say, Asmodel was an unfettered Spectre. And the Spear was stated repeatedly to be the only thing strong enough to harm him, and it was proven by feat as I posted earlier.

No Caption Provided

Neron phased through it, but that's not all. He was able to take on a roster that included Alan Scott, Zatanna, and Doctor Fate and keep them at bay until Spectre took them to the soul plane. Hal Jordan was chosen as the new Spectre host, and he sent Neron to hell where he was demoted to a rhyming class demon which was Etrigan's plan all along. Now that you have a better grasp of Neron's power level and abilities, let's get into some counters and why he beats the Eight Kings.

Rebuttals

To Recap, Bambina's Uses in This Fight Is to:

Pressure Neron with Multi-Planetary Strength.

Neron phases through all his attacks or breathes on him. Either way, Bambina can't hurt by any stretch of imagination, while Neron can just beat him to a pulp or rip his soul out.

Use his FTL SpeedTo Overwhelm Nerons Reactions

Being FTL isn't enough to overwhelm Neron's reactions... I fail to see how you came to this conclusion. Alan Scott and Wally West both have nanosecond timing feats and Neron can react to them just fine.

Use Intimidation to cause Neron Fear.

Intimidation only works if you're physically superior to your opponents, and between my opener and this post I think I've proved that he isn't.

A Singular Kick from Heracles Hitting Troikas Blue Oni Creates a Planet sized Explosion:

This is an accurate depiction of the Toriko planet in comparison to Earth.

No Caption Provided

I definitely wouldn't call Heracles' kick planet level...

No Caption Provided

To Recap, Heracles Use in this fight is to:

Overwhelm Neron physically Using his Planet Level striking, And Planteary+ Breath projection

Neither are working due to intangibility and Neron's own power. Heracles doesn't have planet level striking.

Create a Vacuum to starve Neron of Oxygen(Whether this would work or not depends on whether Neron Need Oxygen to survive, we'll see)

Neron can survive in space just fine. And he's not a human who relies on oxygen.

To Recap, Guinness Use here is to:

Pressure Neron with Planetary+ to Multi-Plantery Striking

Physical attacks aren't an option.

Use his Soul Sniff ability to K.O. Neron for a brief period of time, Allowing one of the Other Kings to Finish him off using their deadly Hax

Lol you can't do that to Neron. He does not have a soul, neither is he one. He is a non-corporeal entity and a master of souls and has shown far more proficiency with manipulating them than Guinness has. His entire motif is that he's the Devil and bargains with people to sell their soul to him. It wouldn't make sense if something like that was possible, not to mention he's no sold Blue Devil's trident which is tailored to work against demonic beings many of whom are spirits.

To Recap, Snake Kings use her is:

To Swallow Neron at FTL Speeds while being distracted By the Other Kings

Use Acid to Melt Neron

Neron can just teleport out of Mother Snake if she swallows him. Dimension hopping is pretty frequent with him as he's gone from Earth to his realm many times. Which also counters Whale King Moon's abilities. And Neron can teleport groups of people en masse as well, so I can argue him BFR'ing several of the Kings at once.

Deer King uses:

To Age Neron Millions of years in a few Seconds.

Neron is immortal. And his human appearance is just a form that he assumes.

Derious Use Here is:

Pressure Neron with his Extra-dimensional Laser

Use his Teeth to Rip Neron to shreds.

The laser has a charge time. Neron will be able to see it coming and phase though it or teleport out of the way since it travels in a straight line. Physical attacks still aren't an option especially if Neron assumes his non-corporeal form.

Alright, Pretty much all your Scaling(So Far) Comes from this Feat; Which i have 2 Main issues with:

A: Kyle didn't Actually Destroy the Planet, He Overloaded the Battery, Which resulted in the Planet Explosion;

Now i don't have Too much Knowledge on the Green Lantern Battery, But i doubt the amount of Energy Needed to Overload it would be Planetary . If a Battery Can Hold 100 Energy units, Kyle just needs to add 0.0001% of that Energy to overload it, Because to Overload something you just need to add an Amount of Energy thats > Then the Batteries Storage capabilities;

No... this proves that you either didn't read the scans carefully or have bad reading comprehension. The planet itself was the battery for Hal.

No Caption Provided

He didn't overload the Central Power Battery inside the planet that caused it to explode. He sent energy into the planet itself and busted it, then no-sold the explosion.

Long Story Short, Kyle doesn't Posses Planetary Energy Output(For now at least)

Except he does. Even if we exclude that feat. For example, in Green Lantern (1990) #167, Kyle destroys The Blind, which was a quantum singularity (black hole level gravitational anomaly) that threatened to cause our Sun to go nova.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

As a testament to the Blind's power, in the previous issue, it one-shotted a planet that had a population of 36 billion just by touching it.

Green Lantern (1990) #167
Green Lantern (1990) #167
Green Lantern (1990) #167
Green Lantern (1990) #167

So Kyle being able to no-sell being inside the Blind alone is easily a planetary durability feat, and destroying it while it was on the brink of causing or Sun to go nova is even more impressive.

Kyle's constructs and shields are also incredibly powerful in general. In DC One Million #4, Kyle causes Solaris (a sentient star) to go supernova though a chain reaction and contains the supernova explosion for a brief time before Kal Kent reinforces him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And last but not least I think this should prove he is very much planetary. More so than some of the Eight Kings actually. And Neron is very much capable of decimating him.

B: Is Oa the size of a regular Planet?

Yes. That scale was just as a little off. It's been portrayed to be a regular planet before.

C: Kyle Overloaded the Battery, which means the Explosion was an Energy attack...... I Hate to be 'That' King of Guy..... But Split Durability makes Mongul using his FIST(A.k.a, Blunt force) to Take down Kyle Become worthless.

If you want to get technical then sure, the feat wouldn't transfer, unless we were to calc the concussive pressure he would receive from the blast. But the same thing can be applied can be applied to the Kings.

Conclusion

Your conclusion seemed to be a summary of your post, and I already countered most of it so I won't bother refuting your conclusion. Neron can turn intangible so physical attacks aren't working. He can soul rip all of the Kings who aren't Guinness while it's a massive stretch to say Guinness can do the same to him. As this is Pre-Flashpoint Neron, he has some showings like overpowering Spectre by blowing at him under the same writer who had Spectre destroying several planets and tanking multiple planet busters with ease. He also phased through the Spear of Destiny in the same comic it hurt an Asmodel possessed Spectre who stomped the JLA, JSA and Sentinels of Magic. Add this to other feats like trolling Alan Scott and beating Kyle Rayner to a pulp and he should be more than capable of defeating the Eight Kings individually. Them attacking him collectively doesn't make much of a difference.

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@higherpower: jeez that was quick, I'll try to get up a post soon

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Round 2: Rebuttals

So basically, Day of Judgement was a mini-series written by Geoff Johns that took place after the events of Spectre Vol. 3 (1992) #36, in which Neron forcibly separated Spectre from his host at the time, Jim Corrigan, after blatantly overpowering them by breathing.

This is an Impressive Feat, dont get me wrong; But what exactly would this quantify as? A TP Feat? A Strength Feat? Etc etc, Because i have No Clue where to place this Feat, or how Neron would use this Against the 8 Kings

Neron phased through it, but that's not all. He was able to take on a roster that included Alan Scott, Zatanna, and Doctor Fate and keep them at bay until Spectre took them to the soul plane. Hal Jordan was chosen as the new Spectre host, and he sent Neron to hell where he was demoted to a rhyming class demon which was Etrigan's plan all along. Now that you have a better grasp of Neron's power level and abilities, let's get into some counters and why he beats the Eight Kings.

So Neron can Phase? Cool, Though ill have you know that Phasing is a 2 way Street; Neron cant use physical Attacks Against the Kings while Phased, Vice-Versa, Meaning:

A. Neron Cannot use Physical attacks Himself, And has to result to using Other means(More on this later)

B. Abilities Like Guinness search(Ill expand on this later), Emporer's Shadow(This Poision is projected through the Crow Kings Shadow, so i dont think being intangible would Help), Moon's Pull, Sky Deer's Time manipulation.

To Recap, Bambina's Uses in This Fight Is to:

Pressure Neron with Multi-Planetary Strength.

Neron phases through all his attacks or breathes on him. Either way, Bambina can't hurt by any stretch of imagination, while Neron can just beat him to a pulp or rip his soul out.

If Neron attempts to use Physical attacks he'll have to Stop being intangible, and the Moment he does that He gets beaten to Death by Guinness and Bambina(Unless Neron posses Multi-Planet/Large Planet Durability feats), And im going to Need Feats Of Neron Ripping Souls While Intang in order to say he can do so.

Use his FTL SpeedTo Overwhelm Nerons Reactions

Being FTL isn't enough to overwhelm Neron's reactions... I fail to see how you came to this conclusion. Alan Scott and Wally West both have nanosecond timing feats and Neron can react to them just fine.

Well Bambina alone wont overwhelm Neron, Yes; But you seem to forgetting he has to simultaneously Deal With a Poisonous Shadow, Getting his Soul BFR'ed, Time Manipulation, Moons Gravity Pull, and the Fact that he cant Physically hurt The Kings While he's Intang.

A Singular Kick from Heracles Hitting Troikas Blue Oni Creates a Planet sized Explosion:

This is an accurate depiction of the Toriko planet in comparison to Earth.

Ill Admit the Explosion isnt Planet sized, However the Potency Definitely is Considering Heracles Shook the Continent With the Kick. Now i know your going to Bring up the Fact the Tsar Bomba Shook the Earth; But did it have as big an as Effect As Heracles Kick? Which Forced all Creatures on the Continent to Leave in fear?:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 287

Plus Theres still the fact that the Toriko earth is Covered in an Energy absorbing Bedrock(Which i showcased in my first post) Which Absorbs any and every Type of Energy(Essentially its Vibranium), This feat irrefutably Becomes at Least Planet Level in Potency

Regardless Heracles isn't Known for being the physical Powerhouse of the Sins Anyway.

Create a Vacuum to starve Neron of Oxygen(Whether this would work or not depends on whether Neron Need Oxygen to survive, we'll see)

Neron can survive in space just fine. And he's not a human who relies on oxygen.

You Realise Not just Humans rely on Oxygen, Right?; Id Like a Scan of Neron Withstanding Being in Space/in a Vacuum Please.

To Recap, Guinness Use here is to:

Pressure Neron with Planetary+ to Multi-Plantery Striking

Physical attacks aren't an option.

As Long as Neron Stays Intagible, Which Leaves him Open to Attacks Like Guinness Search and Emporer's Shadow; All of which Ignore Density.

Plus Neron cant Harm The Kings while Intang, Unless theres Scans of Him doing Things Like Ripping Out Souls While Intangible, Which You've yet to Show.

Hell, Can Neron even use Soul Rip in combat Like Guinness Can? The only time you've shown him doing so is After He Killed Mongul Via Neck Snap. While it may sound Impressive at first, the longer you dwell on it, you seem to realise that Ripping the Soul out of a Dead Person isn't Particularly impressive; Or Combat Related Whatsoever.

Food for Thought.

Use his Soul Sniff ability to K.O. Neron for a brief period of time, Allowing one of the Other Kings to Finish him off using their deadly Hax

Lol you can't do that to Neron. He's a master of souls and has shown far more proficiency with manipulating them than Guinness has. His entire motif is that he's the Devil and bargains with people to sell their soul to him. It wouldn't make sense if something like that was possible,

Im Over Here Repping 8 mythical Beasts, Your over there Repping the Devil incarnate; We left the plethora of sense a long time Ago.

not to mention he's no sold Blue Devil's trident which is tailored to work against demonic beings many of whom are spirits. The only time anyone has been able to affect Neron's soul was Satanus in Reign of Hell using an altered version of the DMN drug to depower him, but that arc resulted in major continuity errors so it's entire canonicity has been called into question.

Again, Guinness Soul Sniff isnt Like Blue devils trident(Im Taking this entirely from the Wiki Page, feel free to correct me if im wrong), Which Banishes Them to Hell; Which sounds More Like Sealing(Seeing as the Souls cannot escape Hell)Than it does BFR To me.

Plus Id Argue Guinness Search >> Blue devil's trident, Seeing as its Worked on much more powerful Characters like Acacia, Neo-Spore(Which has the Mass/energy of a Large Planet), Toriko and Starjun. The Neo-Spore Feat Stands out the most(I Previously Showaced the Neo-Spore having the Energy of a Large planet earlier).

To Recap, Snake Kings use her is:

To Swallow Neron at FTL Speeds while being distracted By the Other Kings

Use Acid to Melt Neron

Neron can just teleport out of Mother Snake if she swallows him. Dimension hopping is pretty frequent with him as he's gone from Earth to his realm many times. Which also counters Whale King Moon's abilities. And Neron can teleport groups of people en masse as well, so I can argue him BFR'ing several of the Kings at once.

He Can Teleport, that is True, But seeing as hes going to be temporarily Stunned Via Guinness, All the snake king needs is a Fraction of a Second and Nerosn dead.

And BFR Doesnt count as a win, so i dont see why BFR The Kings will help, And it doesnt Seem Combat related.

Deer King uses:

To Age Neron Millions of years in a few Seconds.

Neron is immortal. And his human appearance is just a form that he assumes.

Scans Stating Neron is immortal? I Believe you, but id just like Proof if you dont Mind. And when you say Immortal, i do hope you dont Mean the fact that he Resurrects every Time he's Killed.

And Neron must Feed on Something, I Mean whats hes driving Goal? I Mean he must use the Human Souls he collects for something? If he went millions of years without them, What Would occur? Food for Thought.

Derious Use Here is:

Pressure Neron with his Extra-dimensional Laser

Use his Teeth to Rip Neron to shreds.

The laser has a charge time.

Its a Good thing that Sky Deer can Speed up time around Derious; Instantly Charging his Laser in an Instant:

No Caption Provided

Alright, Pretty much all your Scaling(So Far) Comes from this Feat; Which i have 2 Main issues with:

A: Kyle didn't Actually Destroy the Planet, He Overloaded the Battery, Which resulted in the Planet Explosion;

Now i don't have Too much Knowledge on the Green Lantern Battery, But i doubt the amount of Energy Needed to Overload it would be Planetary . If a Battery Can Hold 100 Energy units, Kyle just needs to add 0.0001% of that Energy to overload it, Because to Overload something you just need to add an Amount of Energy thats > Then the Batteries Storage capabilities;

No... this proves that you either didn't read the scans carefully or have bad reading comprehension. The planet itself was the battery.

It seems I've misread the Scans; My Apologies.

So Kyle being able to no-sell being inside the Blind alone is easily a planetary durability feat, and destroying it while it was on the brink of causing or Sun to go nova is even more impressive.

Am i going to have to Point out that Kyle was wearing some Sort of Green Lantern Made Hazmat suit? Which protected Him from the Immense Heat? And the Cat Creature Said there was a Temporal acceleration taking place within the Blind;I have absolutely No clue what that is; If you could explain it that would be Brilliant.

Plus in those Scans didnt Hal say, and i quote 'Control the Energy...Feel the Flow...Direct it....Draw it all inwards....Into the Ring', It Seems Hal more of Absorbed the Energy, rather than Blow is up, or Destroy It.

Kyle's constructs and shields are also incredibly powerful in general. In DC One Million #4, Kyle causes Solaris (a sentient star) to go supernova though a chain reaction and contains the supernova explosion for a brief time before Kal Kent reinforces him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And last but not least I think this should prove he is very much planetary.

I Agree

B: Is Oa the size of a regular Planet?

Yes. That scale was just as a little off. It's been portrayed to be a regular planet before.

Id Like Some Scans of that Please and Thanks.

Conclusion

Your conclusion seemed to be a summary of your post, and I already countered most of it so I won't bother refuting your conclusion. Neron can turn intagible so physical attacks arent working

This Street Goes Both Ways, Because Neron cannot Hurt the Kings while Intangible; Saying he can Rip out there Souls i a Huge Stretch Because:

  • 1. He's never done this in combat before, only on a Dead Opponent.
  • 2. I Mean(And im completely shooting in the dark here), Neron makes Deals with Humans in return for there Souls, If he can just Rip the Souls out of people he wants willy nilly, Why would he need to make Deals? It would be a lot more convenient. Plus The Only Scan you've shown of Neron using Soul rip is Against a Dead Character, which isnt Impressive.

He can soul rip all of the Kings who aren't Guinness while it's a massive stretch to say Guinness can do the same to him.

Massive Stretch? Has Neron even had his soul BFR'ed by Someone as powerful As Guinness? Who can rip the Soul out of a being who has the Energy or a Large Planet? Plus Guinness doesn't have to BFR Nerons Soul forever; Only BFR it Long Enough for the Snake King to melt him, Because as soon as Neron is K.O.'d His intangibility will Cease working

As this is Pre-Flashpoint Neron, he has some showings like overpowering Spectre by blowing at him under the same writer who had Spectre destroying several planets and tanking multiple planet busters with ease.

No Clue how am supposed to take this feat; or how Neron would use it against the Kings.

Conclusion

Well, seeing as my Opponent Brought up Intangibility, initially i Thought it would be a problem, But in actuality its pretty much Useless; Neron himself cannot use physical attacks while Intang, and You've yet To Show Neron using his Soul Rip in Combat/Against Live Foes, And Neron cant hurt the kings using energy Attacks, because they have insane Durability feats like Tanking there own AOE Blast(Before Neo eats it):

Aoe attack before Neo Eats it
Aoe attack before Neo Eats it

And the Result? Well All the Kings(Except Bambina, who was eaten by Neo, and Guinness who we dont see) Were perfectly Fine:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 2: Crow king is fine
  • Scan 1: Whale king and Dragon king are fine
  • Scan 3: Heracles if initaly fine, but gets her head bitten off by Neo(The blast didnt effect her)
    Scan 4: Snake King, Fine.

So Neron only hope is to Deactivate his Intang and use physical attacks, at which point he gets clobbered to Death by Bambina and Guinness Multi Planetary Blows.

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#29  Edited By HigherPower

@vsw:

Round 3 — Closing Statements

This is an Impressive Feat, dont get me wrong; But what exactly would this quantify as? A TP Feat? A Strength Feat? Etc etc, Because i have No Clue where to place this Feat, or how Neron would use this Against the 8 Kings

Overpowering Spectre with a breath would fall under raw power, since that incarnation of Spectre had multi-planetary strength feats. Separating Spectre from his host Corrigan would be closer to reality warping or magic than anything else I can think of. But both feats place Neron above the Kings.

So Neron can Phase? Cool, Though ill have you know that Phasing is a 2 way Street; Neron cant use physical Attacks Against the Kings while Phased, Vice-Versa, Meaning:

A. Neron Cannot use Physical attacks Himself, And has to result to using Other means(More on this later)

While intangible Neron can either teleport them somewhere else (BFR), soul rip, or blow at them like he did to Spectre.

B. Abilities Like Guinness search(Ill expand on this later), Emporer's Shadow(This Poision is projected through the Crow Kings Shadow, so i dont think being intangible would Help), Moon's Pull, Sky Deer's Time manipulation.

Neron uses soul rip way more often than anyone in Toriko, so I'd argue he'd do it to the Kings before Guinness gets a chance to try it to him. Additionally, Crow King's poison is a physical attack, and Sky Deer can't age an immortal non-corporeal demon. I'll address you immortality later in this post.

If Neron attempts to use Physical attacks he'll have to Stop being intangible, and the Moment he does that He gets beaten to Death by Guinness and Bambina(Unless Neron posses Multi-Planet/Large Planet Durability feats),

I quite literally showed Neron overpowering a character with that stat description by breathing. He doesn't need the durability feats to tank their blows if he can phase through them, and if Neron stops phasing to attack them, then he beats them to death.

And im going to Need Feats Of Neron Ripping Souls While Intang in order to say he can do so.

He obviously hasn't done something this specific. Why are you pretending that someone has to be physically tangible in order to remove a soul? Arguing you can't hit someone with physical strikes while intangible is one makes sense, but implying that you need to have a physical body to do something that ignores physical touch completely makes no sense at all.

Well Bambina alone wont overwhelm Neron, Yes; But you seem to forgetting he has to simultaneously Deal With a Poisonous Shadow, Getting his Soul BFR'ed, Time Manipulation, Moons Gravity Pull, and the Fact that he cant Physically hurt The Kings While he's Intang.

Dude, phasing through an attack is a sporadic motion that can be invoked when facing a physical attack. Neron is not going to stay intangible for long periods of time, but like in the instance where he phased through the Spear of Destiny, he can use it selectively when facing an attack that can harm him. Neron can just go intangible every time a brawler like Bambina tries to strike him, and then materialize when he wants to retaliate before phasing through another strike.

Personally I don't even think Bambina can harm Neron anyway, but I know that'd prompt you to ask for "multi-planetary striking durability feats" or some other specific crap.

Ill Admit the Explosion isnt Planet sized, However the Potency Definitely is Considering Heracles Shook the Continent With the Kick. Now i know your going to Bring up the Fact the Tsar Bomba Shook the Earth; But did it have as big an as Effect As Heracles Kick? Which Forced all Creatures on the Continent to Leave in fear?:

Plus Theres still the fact that the Toriko earth is Covered in an Energy absorbing Bedrock(Which i showcased in my first post) Which Absorbs any and every Type of Energy(Essentially its Vibranium), This feat irrefutably Becomes at Least Planet Level in Potency

It's a reasonable assumption but it's still an assumption. We don't know how much harder it is to damage the Toriko Earth's crust in comparison to a regular planet, and sending creatures away in fear isn't quantifiable in terms of destructive capacity. Shaking the surrounding area is really the only thing that increases the feat. We can compromise to small planet level but no more than that.

Regardless Heracles isn't Known for being the physical Powerhouse of the Sins Anyway.

You mean the Kings? Lol.

You Realise Not just Humans rely on Oxygen, Right?; Id Like a Scan of Neron Withstanding Being in Space/in a Vacuum Please.

No Caption Provided

Hell, Can Neron even use Soul Rip in combat Like Guinness Can? The only time you've shown him doing so is After He Killed Mongul Via Neck Snap. While it may sound Impressive at first, the longer you dwell on it, you seem to realise that Ripping the Soul out of a Dead Person isn't Particularly impressive; Or Combat Related Whatsoever.

You mean has he, not can he. Implying that Neron is actually incapable of removing someone's soul in a combat situation just because he snapped Mongul's neck while beating him (and ripped his soul immediately after) is full-blown asininity.

And the answer is no, but for what it's worth, Neron inflicted so much pain on Wonder Woman's soul that moments later she died on the spot after a mere hand gesture.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Wonder Woman vol. 2 (1987) #124

This was a soul attack performed in a combat situation. So it doesn't even have to be soul ripping. Neron can just insta-kill some of the Kings by waving his hand.

Again, Guinness Soul Sniff isnt Like Blue devils trident(Im Taking this entirely from the Wiki Page, feel free to correct me if im wrong), Which Banishes Them to Hell; Which sounds More Like Sealing(Seeing as the Souls cannot escape Hell)Than it does BFR To me.

The action of sending demons to hell is most definitely BFR. Not that it matters since sealing and BFR are effectively the same thing.

Plus Id Argue Guinness Search >> Blue devil's trident, Seeing as its Worked on much more powerful Characters like Acacia,

It actually didn't work on Acacia. Acacia literally sucked his soul back into his body on the same page Guinness tried to sniff it out.

Chapter 391
Chapter 391

He Can Teleport, that is True, But seeing as hes going to be temporarily Stunned Via Guinness, All the snake king needs is a Fraction of a Second and Nerosn dead.

He's not going to "temporarily stunned" by Guinness or anyone else. Neron will walk through the Kings the moment the fights starts. He has massively better feats (I probably should've went more in-depth on Alan) and counters most of their main form of hax.

And BFR Doesnt count as a win, so i dont see why BFR The Kings will help, And it doesnt Seem Combat related.

Yes it does. Victory is by death, knockout of incapacitation, which BFR falls under.

Scans Stating Neron is immortal? I Believe you, but id just like Proof if you dont Mind. And when you say Immortal, i do hope you dont Mean the fact that he Resurrects every Time he's Killed.

Neron told Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman vol. 2 (1987) #124 that he was among the first beings to walk the universe, and his influence has been known since humanities first fall from grace.

No Caption Provided

Humanities first fall from grace may denote to Adam and Eve, which reaffirms Neron's statement in Richard Dragon #10 where he states he's been around for Eons (billions of years if taken literally) and brought the very first couple together. In quite's clear throughout his lore that Neron, DC's Satan, is a primordial being who's implied to have been around since the dawn of creation.

Its a Good thing that Sky Deer can Speed up time around Derious; Instantly Charging his Laser in an Instant:

You can still see the laser before it's fired though which is the point. The process is sped up, but you can't tell me that you don't see a glowing ball in front of Derous mouth initially.

Am i going to have to Point out that Kyle was wearing some Sort of Green Lantern Made Hazmat suit? Which protected Him from the Immense Heat?

What does this heat have to do with anything?

And the Cat Creature Said there was a Temporal acceleration taking place within the Blind;I have absolutely No clue what that is; If you could explain it that would be Brilliant.

The Blind was going to cause the Sun to go Nova through temporal acceleration. It was rapidly aging the Sun towards the end of it's natural lifespan so it would explode before it's time.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In the last scan you can actually see Kyle containing it within construct hands. Which is another planetary feat for his constructs.

Plus in those Scans didnt Hal say, and i quote 'Control the Energy...Feel the Flow...Direct it....Draw it all inwards....Into the Ring', It Seems Hal more of Absorbed the Energy, rather than Blow is up, or Destroy It.

That was Kyle Rayner not Hal Jordan. And that seems to be in reference to the Ring.

Id Like Some Scans of that Please and Thanks.

Truth be told, I was thinking about Mogo when I said that. I couldn't find any scans other than this that portrayed Oa as a fair sized planet.

This Street Goes Both Ways, Because Neron cannot Hurt the Kings while Intangible; Saying he can Rip out there Souls i a Huge Stretch Because:

1. He's never done this in combat before, only on a Dead Opponent.

He's used a soul attack on a living opponent, so with that in mind, arguing he's capable of soul ripping someone while they're alive is anything but a stretch.

2. I Mean(And im completely shooting in the dark here), Neron makes Deals with Humans in return for there Souls, If he can just Rip the Souls out of people he wants willy nilly, Why would he need to make Deals? It would be a lot more convenient. Plus The Only Scan you've shown of Neron using Soul rip is Against a Dead Character, which isnt Impressive.

Because Neron loves making a deal more than anything else. It's his only imperative. And most of the time, he makes deals to have people's souls in exchange for giving them power to achieve some kind of end for him. Basically, if he just soul ripped whenever he wanted then there'd be no story.

Massive Stretch? Has Neron even had his soul BFR'ed by Someone as powerful As Guinness?

Except I never argued him soul ripping Guinness? Just the other Kings, and physical power has nothing to do with it.

Plus Guinness doesn't have to BFR Nerons Soul forever; Only BFR it Long Enough for the Snake King to melt him, Because as soon as Neron is K.O.'d His intangibility will Cease working

We're just going in circles at this point man. And Neron can just teleport outside of Mother Snake

No Clue how am supposed to take this feat; or how Neron would use it against the Kings.

I'm not sure what you're confused about. The feat is explicit. When operating at his highest levels of power, Neron is clearly above the Eight Kings; being able to treat multi-planetary opponents like fodder and overpowering them with a breath. Which reminds me:

o Neron only hope is to Deactivate his Intang and use physical attacks, at which point he gets clobbered to Death by Bambina and Guinness Multi Planetary Blows.

That incarnation of Spectre had multi-planetary strength and Neron overpowered him by BREATHING. Him getting stomped in CQC by any of Kings is just a pipe dream at this point, and he can phase through their attacks.

In Summation

The Eight Kings are extraordinarily powerful, but Neron just has them beat. He can selectively phase through physical attacks, avoid BFR from Mother Snake and Moon with teleportation, and is immune to aging due to immortality. Guinness was really the only problem since no one has ever tried to soul-rip Neron before, so I couldn't find a feat of him resisting it, but what's to say Neron doesn't inflict immeasurable pain on Guinness soul to hinder him? Guinness wouldn't even open with that anyway and Neron can just smack the crap out of him.

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#31  Edited By HigherPower

I already told vsw this in private, but after reading the Zero Hour event I felt I should mention it here for anyone reading the debate. I was mistaken about Kyle's feat of blowing up Oa. There's actually a Central Power Battery in Oa and Parallax Hal was feeding off of that in Zero Hour. It was stated in the Green Lantern (2011) #24 that the destruction of the battery would cause a chain reaction that went down to the planet's core, destroying it.

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I still think Kyle has planetary energy projections for other feats like destroying the Blind, but him busting Oa is questionable. He could have destroyed the battery which destroyed the planet, but the scan also shows him sending energy straight to the planet's core.

No Caption Provided

It could be either.

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#32  Edited By vsw

Round 3: Rebuttals II

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Rebuttals

Lemme Just Say, Forget about Me Saying Neron cant use Soul Rip while Intangible, I Agree he can.

This is an Impressive Feat, dont get me wrong; But what exactly would this quantify as? A TP Feat? A Strength Feat? Etc etc, Because i have No Clue where to place this Feat, or how Neron would use this Against the 8 Kings

Overpowering Spectre with a breath would fall under raw power, since that incarnation of Spectre had multi-planetary strength feats. Separating Spectre from his host Corrigan would be closer to reality warping or magic than anything else I can think of. But both feats place Neron above the Kings.

A: Alright, Raw Power feat. I Dont see how this Feat being Reality warping would harm any of the Kings(Unless Neron trying to Seperate them.... from themselves...), So ill just Chock this up to a Raw Power Feat as well.

B: Seeing as you claim Spectre is Multi-Planetary, Taking a Look at the Actual Scans itself Pretty much debunks That, Because:

i). Spectre Was on the Astral Plane.

Before i say Anything, Id Like the Voters to take a Look at the Scan you provided.

No Caption Provided

'While we battle Here on the Astral Plane, My Servant is Killing the Female on the Mortal One'

Now im by no Means an expert when it comes to DC(Yet), So But They Clearly aren't Fighting On the Physical Realm; Everything they're doing is just Pretty Cool Spirit/Soul Manipulation.

Which is impressive(Dont get me wrong)But useless since Your chocking this Up as a Destructive Capability Feat, When it Took place on the Astral Plane; It wasnt even a Physical battle. And we know for a Fact that Neron fought Spectre in the Mortal Realm/Plane:

'I am But recently Returned to the Mortal Realm, and knew that Sooner or later, we must me. I Thought it was best our meeting was on MY Terms. I Recognize you as a being of great power, perhaps the greatest on this Plane
'I am But recently Returned to the Mortal Realm, and knew that Sooner or later, we must me. I Thought it was best our meeting was on MY Terms. I Recognize you as a being of great power, perhaps the greatest on this Plane

As you can See, Neron Fought Spectre on the Mortal Realm, Not the Astral One; So Unless you have a Scan Stating so : Feats done on the Astral Plane(Which is basically Soul/Spirit Manipulation)Cannot be applied to One Done in the Mortal One, Because One if Soul/Spirit Manipulation, and the Other is Raw physical Prowess

ii). Spectre didnt actually destroy any Real Planets.

Before i say anything else, Again I'd Like Our Viewers to Actually take a good Look at the Scan:

No Caption Provided

'This is a Primal Battle.....Mere Lives are not in the balance here. Each World Manifests Not a Reality, But a Possibility. What we Destroy Here Are Dreams. '

Spectre isn't Even Destroying Actual Planets, Only Possibilities(No clue what that means), and Dreams; None of that Actually Physically Happened. Those Planets aren't Planet, so destroying them Isn't a Real DC Feat,

B: Your seriously Over Estimating Spectre's Feat.

If i completely Ignore all the points ive made above, We Actually get a Scan Showcasing Spectre's Size Compared to a Planet(Keep in mind to Look at the size of Spectre's Hands compared to the Planet):

No Caption Provided

Now Take a Look at what Spectre busted:

No Caption Provided

That Measly 'Planet' is Barely Bigger than Spectre's hands; Its Only around Moon size(Eyeballing it), Small Planet sized at Best, and you're calling Spectre Multi-Planet for busting that is wrong for a Plethora of reasons:

  1. Its Insanely Small. Multi-Planetary?!?! C'mon.
  2. He only Busted 1 Single Planet.
  3. You've Jumped a Scaling Step; It goes Planetary, Planet+, Then Multi-Planetary. Busting a Planet doesn't make Someone Multi-Planetary, Because if It does then Bambina Becomes Large Planet Level Via Overpowering The 4HK Using 240 Trillions cells(and 1 of the Heavenly Kings Using 60 Cells are Multi-Planet) etc etc...... What im trying to say is,Scaling becomes Incredibly Messy.

C: Are we just going to ignore the Fact that Spectre was HUGE In those scans of busting the 'Planet', And regular sized When fighting Neron? Equating His Striking when his Size was Alterated is Just Straight Up Poor Scaling.....

To Recap, All in All, Spectre is not Multi-Planetary Because:

  • All feats he's done were accomplished on the Astral Plane, he fought Neron on the Physical One.
  • He didn't destroy Real Planets; Merely Dreams that took the form of them
  • Spectre's Height was drastically Enhanced when he 'Planet' busted
  • The 'Planet' He busted is the Size or a large Moon/Small planet At Best
  • You've Skipped a Tier when it comes to Scaling, Destroying a Planet is Planet+, Not Multi-Planet anyway.

So Neron can Phase? Cool, Though ill have you know that Phasing is a 2 way Street; Neron cant use physical Attacks Against the Kings while Phased, Vice-Versa, Meaning:

A. Neron Cannot use Physical attacks Himself, And has to result to using Other means(More on this later)

While intangible Neron can either teleport them somewhere else (BFR), soul rip, or blow at them like he did to Spectre.

BFR Isn't Really doing Much to Help Neron at this Point, He hasn't shown the Skill to do it in Combat Plus, This battle is fight to K.O., Death or incap ; BFR Wont suffice(Even Though you think it will, ill get to That Later on). Soul Rip is a Viable Option, Yes, But at the Same time Neron will be fighting for his Soul from Guinness; he wont have the time to Do this.

B. Abilities Like Guinness search(Ill expand on this later), Emporer's Shadow(This Poision is projected through the Crow Kings Shadow, so i dont think being intangible would Help), Moon's Pull, Sky Deer's Time manipulation.

Neron uses soul rip way more often than anyone in Toriko, so I'd argue he'd do it to the Kings before Guinness gets a chance to try it to him.

Guinness is Known to Uses Soul rip Straight away; in 2/3 Fights he's had he does it instantly:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scans 1-2: Showcase Soul sniff
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scans 2-1: Guinness Pushes Toriko and Starjun Back, The Proceeds to Sniff out there Souls

Additionally, Crow King's poison is a physical attack,

A Shadow is an absence of Light; Made by an object blocking rays of Light. Personally I Don't see how that requires Physical Contact. And we didn't agree on Full Knowloge; Neron wont even Know that Crow Kings Shadow Is an attack, Or That He'd Need to go intangible(Which im not even convinced would work) in Order to escape from its effects, Which Cause anything thats its cast Upon to Loose Thought; Essentially its objective and Die:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scans 1-2: Showcase the Posion in action

Its a Huge Stretch to say that in a Combat Scenario Neron is Going to see a Random Shadow and Phase through it without any Previous Knowledge of its abilities. The Opening the Shadow would create would allow Any one of the Eight kings to Finish him off using some method or Hax(More on this in the Conclusion). And im Still not convinced he Can Phase through a Shadow anyway.

Well Bambina alone wont overwhelm Neron, Yes; But you seem to forgetting he has to simultaneously Deal With a Poisonous Shadow, Getting his Soul BFR'ed, Time Manipulation, Moons Gravity Pull, and the Fact that he cant Physically hurt The Kings While he's Intang.

Dude, phasing through an attack is a sporadic motion that can be invoked when facing a physical attack. Neron is not going to stay intangible for long periods of time, but like in the instance where he phased through the Spear of Destiny, he can use it selectively when facing an attack that can harm him. Neron can just go intangible every time a brawler like Bambina tries to strike him, and then materialize when he wants to retaliate before phasing through another strike.

Hmm i see. Well in that Case, Thing only become Worse for Neron. More on that Later. If he 'Sporadicly' Chooses to phase through Guinness Direct attacks, He'll be Met with the Powerful AOE Shockwave it Carries(I Showcase this in my opoener). Neron is only going to Phase through the actual Hit itself, He wont be aware there's a shockwave that follows.

Personally I don't even think Bambina can harm Neron anyway, but I know that'd prompt you to ask for "multi-planetary striking durability feats" or some other specific crap.

i Already Apologised for Claiming Neron needed Specific feats of Ripping Souls while Intangible; But if your Going to claim Neron can tank Hits from Bambina, Then at Least Provide feats of him Tanking Such attacks. How on earth is that Specific? Just asking for Durability feats, Plain and simple.

Ill Admit the Explosion isnt Planet sized, However the Potency Definitely is Considering Heracles Shook the Continent With the Kick. Now i know your going to Bring up the Fact the Tsar Bomba Shook the Earth; But did it have as big an as Effect As Heracles Kick? Which Forced all Creatures on the Continent to Leave in fear?:

Plus Theres still the fact that the Toriko earth is Covered in an Energy absorbing Bedrock(Which i showcased in my first post) Which Absorbs any and every Type of Energy(Essentially its Vibranium), This feat irrefutably Becomes at Least Planet Level in Potency

It's a reasonable assumption but it's still an assumption. We don't know how much harder it is to damage the Toriko Earth's crust in comparison to a regular planet, and sending creatures away in fear isn't quantifiable in terms of destructive capacity. Shaking the surrounding area is really the only thing that increases the feat. We can compromise to small planet level but no more than that.

Eh, Agreeable.

Regardless Heracles isn't Known for being the physical Powerhouse of the Sins Anyway.

You mean the Kings? Lol.

Darn you Hittheassasin for Constantly Talking about NNT!! Lol.

Hell, Can Neron even use Soul Rip in combat Like Guinness Can? The only time you've shown him doing so is After He Killed Mongul Via Neck Snap. While it may sound Impressive at first, the longer you dwell on it, you seem to realise that Ripping the Soul out of a Dead Person isn't Particularly impressive; Or Combat Related Whatsoever.

You mean has he, not can he. Implying that Neron is actually incapable of removing someone's soul in a combat situation just because he snapped Mongul's neck while beating him (and ripped his soul immediately after) is full-blown asininity.

And the answer is no, but for what it's worth, Neron inflicted so much pain on Wonder Woman's soul that moments later she died on the spot after a mere hand gesture.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Wonder Woman vol. 2 (1987) #124

This was a soul attack performed in a combat situation. So it doesn't even have to be soul ripping. Neron can just insta-kill some of the Kings by waving his hand.

A: I Fell like its awfully important to Realise that Artemis Was Draining More than Half of Diane's Power. Magala Saw that she was going to die and Gave Most of her power to artemis So She could be resurrected; Still an impressive feat(Dont get me wrong there) but it was done a Weakened Wonder woman:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scans 1-4: Explain that Diana was Heavily Weakened.

B: Im Assuming that Neron can only Do his Soul Manip one at a Time, Which is ultimately his Downfall(More on this in the Conclusion as well). The Reason ive assumed this is because thats what weve been shown, Hes only used it on one opponent per time.

Again, Guinness Soul Sniff isnt Like Blue devils trident(Im Taking this entirely from the Wiki Page, feel free to correct me if im wrong), Which Banishes Them to Hell; Which sounds More Like Sealing(Seeing as the Souls cannot escape Hell)Than it does BFR To me.

The action of sending demons to hell is most definitely BFR. Not that it matters since sealing and BFR are effectively the same thing.

But he wasnt sending them to hell, was he? He was Banishing them to Hell; Which is Trapping Someone Somewhere, were they are unable to return to. And i heavily Disagree on Sealing and BFR Being the Same. I Can be BFR'ed to America Right now and Walk Back(Though it would take several days), However i Cannot Escape from Jin Mori's Gourd.

Though i may have derailed this Topic, Sealing seems to do More with Dimensional Teleportation/Banishing; Almost exactly what Blue devils trident does.

Plus Id Argue Guinness Search >> Blue devil's trident, Seeing as its Worked on much more powerful Characters like Acacia,

It actually didn't work on Acacia. Acacia literally sucked his soul back into his body on the same page Guinness tried to sniff it out

It worked for a Brief Moment; It Stunned him. We quite clearly see his Body temporarily Go Limp, and his Body turn white:

No Caption Provided

And to Be Honest, thats all that it needs to do. Guinness just needs to Rip out his Soul for 0.000000001 Seconds even for the other Kings to Finish him Off, Wether that be Bambina using Physical strikes, Or Crow kings Poison etc.

He Can Teleport, that is True, But seeing as hes going to be temporarily Stunned Via Guinness, All the snake king needs is a Fraction of a Second and Nerosn dead.

He's not going to "temporarily stunned" by Guinness or anyone else. Neron will walk through the Kings the moment the fights starts. He has massively better feats (I probably should've went more in-depth on Alan) and counters most of their main form of hax.

Based on what Exactly? Guinness Soul Sniff is > Blue devils Trident, Plus you even said it yourself; Neron wont constantly Be intangible throughout this Bout. Crow Kings Shadow Will Tag Him, and once it does its GG

And BFR Doesnt count as a win, so i dont see why BFR The Kings will help, And it doesnt Seem Combat related.

Yes it does. Victory is by death, knockout of incapacitation, which BFR falls under.

?

No, it doesn't, The Official Meaning of Incapacitation(Coming from the Google , mind you) :

  1. prevent from functioning in a normal way."he was incapacitated by a heart attack"
    synonyms:disabled, debilitated, indisposed, unfit; More
    • LAWdeprive (someone) of their legal capacity.

Another site said and i quote: 'To Prevent Something functioning in a Normal Way; In other words to restrict movement via being Disabled, Unable to move or Function'. Something BFR Doesn't accomplish.

Am i going to have to Point out that Kyle was wearing some Sort of Green Lantern Made Hazmat suit? Which protected Him from the Immense Heat?

What does this heat have to do with anything?

My Point is, Kyle was clearly Wearing some Sort of Protection when he entered the Blind, Unlike when he fought Neron. Wether or not that increased his durability doesn't matter at this Point, Because regardless Nerons feat of beating down Kyle who has energy Durability feats doesnt matter.

And the Cat Creature Said there was a Temporal acceleration taking place within the Blind;I have absolutely No clue what that is; If you could explain it that would be Brilliant.

The Blind was going to cause the Sun to go Nova through temporal acceleration. It was rapidly aging the Sun towards the end of it's natural lifespan so it would explode before it's time.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In the last scan you can actually see Kyle containing it within construct hands. Which is another planetary feat for his constructs.

Meh, I Can Agree Kyles constructs are Planetary, Thats Fair. But they have Planetary energy durability, Which dont apply to Neron using his Fists to Break them.

d Like Some Scans of that Please and Thanks.

Truth be told, I was thinking about Mogo when I said that. I couldn't find any scans other than this that portrayed Oa as a fair sized planet.

Well as We already Discussed, and we both Agreed, Destroying Oa isnt a Planetary Feat, So ill just Ignore this.

This Street Goes Both Ways, Because Neron cannot Hurt the Kings while Intangible; Saying he can Rip out there Souls i a Huge Stretch Because:

1. He's never done this in combat before, only on a Dead Opponent.

He's used a soul attack on a living opponent, so with that in mind, arguing he's capable of soul ripping someone while they're alive is anything but a stretch.

Soul Ripping an alive opponent isnt a Stretch by any Means, That i agree.

But saying he can actively do So In Combat While fighting against 8 FTL Hax individuals(With one of those Hax being his own ability, which is Soul rip)? thats where i have a problem.

2. I Mean(And im completely shooting in the dark here), Neron makes Deals with Humans in return for there Souls, If he can just Rip the Souls out of people he wants willy nilly, Why would he need to make Deals? It would be a lot more convenient. Plus The Only Scan you've shown of Neron using Soul rip is Against a Dead Character, which isnt Impressive.

Because Neron loves making a deal more than anything else. It's his only imperative. And most of the time, he makes deals to have people's souls in exchange for giving them power to achieve some kind of end for him. Basically, if he just soul ripped whenever he wanted then there'd be no story.

In all Honesty, Fair Enough.

Plus Guinness doesn't have to BFR Nerons Soul forever; Only BFR it Long Enough for the Snake King to melt him, Because as soon as Neron is K.O.'d His intangibility will Cease working

We're just going in circles at this point man. And Neron can just teleport outside of Mother Snake

Did you not understand what i wrote? If Nerons Soul is Temporarily BFR'ed by Guinness he will be K.O.'d. He will Not be able to Teleport out of the Snake king, Because he will be unconscious.

No Clue how am supposed to take this feat; or how Neron would use it against the Kings.

I'm not sure what you're confused about. The feat is explicit. When operating at his highest levels of power, Neron is clearly above the Eight Kings; being able to treat multi-planetary opponents like fodder and overpowering them with a breath. Which reminds me:

A: What confused me was the Separating Jim Corgan Part, as that seemed more Like a TP Feat to me, but as you said earlier its most likely a Reality warping feat.

B: Ive dealt with Multi-Planetary Spectre.

o Neron only hope is to Deactivate his Intang and use physical attacks, at which point he gets clobbered to Death by Bambina and Guinness Multi Planetary Blows.

That incarnation of Spectre had multi-planetary strength and Neron overpowered him by BREATHING. Him getting stomped in CQC by any of Kings is just a pipe dream at this point, and he can phase through their attacks.

Ive addressed Spectre's Feat, So as it is Neron is getting killed in CQC.

4 Reasons why | 8 Kings

Essentially, this is a Conclusion sumarizing the Debate, and showcasing exactly why Neron Looses, and the Eight Kings win.

1. In Order for Neron to even survive for a fraction of a second he's going to have to Take out 2 of the Kings, Which is impossible.

Now the 2 most important Kings in this Bout are Emperor crow and Guinness Because they Posses Abilities that Neron cant counter which are:

  • Guinness Possesses Soul Sniff which can and will temporarily BFR Nerons soul, And because of this Neron will be temporarily Incapacitated; Allowing Mother Snake or Bambina to finish Neron Off with Acid or Physical Blows. Neron Cannot Teleport out of Mother snake or Turn intangible to Avoid Bambina strikes because he will be K.O.'d. Neron Dies
  • Emperor Crow Shadow Posion can and will Oneshot Neron, regardless if he's Intangible or Not(Being intangible doesn't help against such an attack). You even said yourself that Neron wont constantly Be Intangible; He'll only use it to dodge attacks as such. So he Will Not Use it against Emperor crows Shadow anyway, because we did not Agree on full Knowledge. Neron has no Clue that Crow's Shadow contains Poison, So he isnt going to randomly Phase through it. So it Will K.O. Him, Allowing Snake King or Monkey King to Finish him off as he cannot Turn intangible/Teleport out of Mother snake, and He has no durability feats to say he can Tank Bambina's Strikies. Neron Dies.

Nerons only chance at survival is Using Soul Manip to the Kill these 2 kings Simultaneously, But thats the thing, He cant. We'ver only ever Been shown Neron using Soul manip once at a time(On Mongul and Wonder woman), so To State Neron can use Soul Manip on multiple Opponents at once without Proof is simply HeadCannon(Imagine me Stating Guinness can use Soul rip on multiple opponents at once), So its either:

  • Neron uses Soul Manip/Soul Rip on Guinness, Which allows the Crow king to K.O. Him. The Snake thing Then Decides to melt Neron, or Bambina beats him to death. Neron will be K.O.'d so he cant stop any of this form happening
  • Neron decided to use Soul Manip/Soul rip on Emperor crow, Which allows Guinness to Sniff out his Soul, Temporarily K.Oing him for a bit. The Snake king then can Melt Neron, Or Bambina can wail on Neron till he dies. Neron will be K.O'D So he cant do anything about it. Both these situations result in Neron dead

Plus, Neron wont know that Guinness and Emperor Crow have these amazing abilites and they need to be taken out first; There are 8 Kings here, whats to say Neron wont Soul Rip Moon? Or Sky Deer? or Heracles? etc

Neron Dies

2. Spectre's Feats were Debunked, So Neron has no Scaling Apart from Kyle(Which isnt even Legit)

Gee, where do i start with this?

The Fact that everything the spectre did was a Soul/Spirit fight because they were on the Astral Plane?

Or the fact that Spectre didnt actually destroy a Planet, but a Dream? OR The fact that the Planet he destroyed was a Moon, Small planet at Best; and he only destroy 1? And somehow you dubbed him Multi-Planetary?

Dont even get me started on the fact that Spectre's Size had been altered Insanely; He was literally bigger than the Planets.... But you're equating his Striking to when he was normal Sized??

This feat pretty much unravelled itself Honestly. The only Scaling Neron has at this point is to Kyle, Who you admitted yourself is Planet level, So Neron is still only Planet+, So He cant even hurt most of the Kings.

But then theres the fact that Kyle surviving going in the Bling is an energy Durability feat, and Neorn used his Fists to hurt Kyle. ALL Your Scaling becomes Void at this point.

Split durability is a thing my guy.

3. Neron Lacks Durability feats.

Something i only realised a while ago, Neron is essentially a Glass Canon; Hiding behind 'Multi-Planetary' Striking feats and Intangibility. His Best Durability feats are Tanking Planetary Hits from Kyle, which is good, But sadly not enough in this Case.

While he's K.O'd, He cant survive any hits from Bambina, and he cant phase through them, So thats GG.

4. Neron lacks Methods of Hurting the Kings excpet through Soul Manip(Which can only be done one at a time from what we Know), His best Physical attacks:

  • Hurt Kyle, Who only has Planet level energy durability(So Scaling is void.)
  • He Blasts didnt Even Break Kyle's Shields, Only His Punches did. But again, Kyle has only tanked energy attacks, So Scaling becomes Null.

The ONLY Feat Neron has thats actually applicable is killing Mongul, But Mongul himself doesnt have any impressive Feats, So Neron isn't hurting the Kings, And BFR Doesnt even count as a win here So the only thing Neron has going is Soul Manip which I've dealt with All ready.

Neron simply cannot win this.

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#34  Edited By Thenewguysnm1

@vsw: In your last part you forgot to add wins

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@thenewguysnm1: Thanks, though I'll probably hold off from adding it now as we're doing One more round anyway

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#36  Edited By HigherPower

Round 4 — Final Post

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B: Seeing as you claim Spectre is Multi-Planetary, Taking a Look at the Actual Scans itself Pretty much debunks That, Because:

i). Spectre Was on the Astral Plane.

Before i say Anything, Id Like the Voters to take a Look at the Scan you provided.

'While we battle Here on the Astral Plane, My Servant is Killing the Female on the Mortal One'

When I posted the feat the first time I literally mentioned that it took place on the astral plane... So this isn't a big reveal or anything, and it doesn't diminish the feat for reasons I'll subsequently disclose.

Now im by no Means an expert when it comes to DC(Yet), So But They Clearly aren't Fighting On the Physical Realm; Everything they're doing is just Pretty Cool Spirit/Soul Manipulation.

Which is impressive(Dont get me wrong)But useless since Your chocking this Up as a Destructive Capability Feat, When it Took place on the Astral Plane; It wasnt even a Physical battle. And we know for a Fact that Neron fought Spectre in the Mortal Realm/Plane

As you can See, Neron Fought Spectre on the Mortal Realm, Not the Astral One; So Unless you have a Scan Stating so : Feats done on the Astral Plane(Which is basically Soul/Spirit Manipulation)Cannot be applied to One Done in the Mortal One, Because One if Soul/Spirit Manipulation, and the Other is Raw physical Prowess

It was pretty much outright stated that everything Spectre and Azmodus did on the astral plane was a reflection of what they were capable of doing on the physical plane. This is chiefly due to Azmodus' statement in issue #11 (which, despite you posting the scans and trying to use them against me, you apparently didn't understand) where Azmodus literally says the worlds (planets) they destroyed represented "not a reality, but a possibility".

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Notice how Azmodus also tells Spectre that lives are not at stake "What we destroy here are dreams" in addition to "mere lives are not in the balance" are reassurances. This confirms that the reason Spectre and Azmodus took their match to the astral plane was to not actually harm anything on the mortal plane, since they were capable of causing that much destruction on the mortal plane, hence calling the world/planet's destruction a "possibility".

You quoted this exact line so I'm not sure how you failed to comprehend this, but hot dog is that embarrassing.

For further proof, let's take a look at Azmodus' statement in issue #10.

No Caption Provided

Here he refers to the physical realm as the "puny realm of the senses", and says they would "contest like Gods" in reference to the astral plane. This obviously means that the mortal plane couldn't contain their match and that they'll be able to cut loose in a place where lives aren't loss as collateral, which is an implication that was supported by Azmodus' statement in issue #11. So all the feats they performed on the astral plane in issue #11 are things they're capable of doing on the physical plane. And considering Post-Crisis' Spectre's other feats, him being multi-planet level is extremely believable.

ii). Spectre didnt actually destroy any Real Planets.

Before i say anything else, Again I'd Like Our Viewers to Actually take a good Look at the Scan:

'This is a Primal Battle.....Mere Lives are not in the balance here. Each World Manifests Not a Reality, But a Possibility. What we Destroy Here Are Dreams. '

Spectre isn't Even Destroying Actual Planets, Only Possibilities(No clue what that means), and Dreams; None of that Actually Physically Happened. Those Planets aren't Planet, so destroying them Isn't a Real DC Feat,

Minus 10 points for reading comprehension. If Azmodus calls the action of him and Spectre destroying planets a possibility, does that not literally means it's possible for them to destroy planets? Which means they're capable of doing so? The feat still transfers. Here's the correct way to interpret the statement:

Each world that they destroyed manifested not a reality (aka they weren't REALLY destroying planets and ending lives) but a possibility (aka it's something they COULD do). What they destroyed were dreams, so mere lives were not in the balance. They key is the fact the manifested 'worlds' Azmodus mentions are in direct reference to the 'dreams' they were destroying. And that's pretty obvious if you read the sentence again a few times.

B: Your seriously Over Estimating Spectre's Feat.

If i completely Ignore all the points ive made above, We Actually get a Scan Showcasing Spectre's Size Compared to a Planet(Keep in mind to Look at the size of Spectre's Hands compared to the Planet):

The planet he's touching in this scan with a massive visible ring is a clear gas giant. Which his full body is still larger than by the way.

Now Take a Look at what Spectre busted:

That Measly 'Planet' is Barely Bigger than Spectre's hands; Its Only around Moon size(Eyeballing it), Small Planet sized at Best, and you're calling Spectre Multi-Planet for busting that is wrong for a Plethora of reasons:

Its Insanely Small. Multi-Planetary?!?! C'mon.

He only Busted 1 Single Planet.

You've Jumped a Scaling Step; It goes Planetary, Planet+, Then Multi-Planetary. Busting a Planet doesn't make Someone Multi-Planetary, Because if It does then Bambina Becomes Large Planet Level Via Overpowering The 4HK Using 240 Trillions cells(and 1 of the Heavenly Kings Using 60 Cells are Multi-Planet) etc etc...... What im trying to say is,Scaling becomes Incredibly Messy.

Did you not read the issue or are you just scrutinizing individual scans? First of all, my claim was that Spectre had multi-planetary strength, which if you had read the issue you would know is entirely substantiated. I didn't post his full fight with Azmodus. Establishing shots for Spectre and Azmodus have already been posted, so it should be irrefutable that they were both dwarfing planets by several times (I mean, they could hold them like basketballs), with Spectre actually being comparable to a gas giant.

With that in mind, towards the end of the issue we see a few things happen.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Azmodus launches a volley of what appear to be moons or asteroids at Spectre. He then grabs his face, only for Spectre to grab Azmodus and throw him, sending him flying into a planet, destroying it. This already endows Spectre with multi-planetary strength, since he can easily throw something that was dwarfing planets and unintentionally destroy a planet as collateral.
  • Scan 2: Azmodus binds Spectre in his chains of fire. Another perspective shot. Notice how Azmodus' left hand is busting a planet just by him waving it back.
  • Scan 3-4: Spectre wrestles Azmodus, ripping off his cape. He then prepares to kill him in a single blow.

"Planetary" is simply not an accurate description with these feats taken into account.

C: Are we just going to ignore the Fact that Spectre was HUGE In those scans of busting the 'Planet', And regular sized When fighting Neron? Equating His Striking when his Size was Alterated is Just Straight Up Poor Scaling.....

This doesn't make any sense. It's not like when he was large in his fight with Azmodus, he had a mass increase in comparison to his physical form, since he was on a separate plane that just showed what he was capable of doing in the physical world. Honestly I just don't think you understand The Spectre. Do you not realize that he warps reality, space and time? Not to mention he's a spirit (known as the Spirit of Vengeance) and materializes physically when he chooses. Saying that "equating his striking when his size was altered is poor scaling" isn't true due to the nature of his being. He's not a flesh-and-blood entity with a set mass, who operates within the confines of those absolutes.

To Recap, All in All, Spectre is not Multi-Planetary Because:

To recap, you attempted to debunk a feat but your reading comprehension failed you, and you made assertions about a character you don't fully understand.

BFR Isn't Really doing Much to Help Neron at this Point, He hasn't shown the Skill to do it in Combat Plus, This battle is fight to K.O., Death or incap ; BFR Wont suffice(Even Though you think it will, ill get to That Later on).

BFR is most definitely an option for victory that falls under incap... what are you on about?

Guinness is Known to Uses Soul rip Straight away; in 2/3 Fights he's had he does it instantly:

Scans 1-2: Showcase Soul sniff

Scans 2-1: Guinness Pushes Toriko and Starjun Back, The Proceeds to Sniff out there Souls

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against Guinness using soul sniff at all. But I think you're overplaying it. I'll get into why later in this post.

A Shadow is an absence of Light; Made by an object blocking rays of Light. Personally I Don't see how that requires Physical Contact.

And we didn't agree on Full Knowloge; Neron wont even Know that Crow Kings Shadow Is an attack, Or That He'd Need to go intangible(Which im not even convinced would work) in Order to escape from its effects, Which Cause anything thats its cast Upon to Loose Thought; Essentially its objective and Die:

Its a Huge Stretch to say that in a Combat Scenario Neron is Going to see a Random Shadow and Phase through it without any Previous Knowledge of its abilities. The Opening the Shadow would create would allow Any one of the Eight kings to Finish him off using some method or Hax(More on this in the Conclusion). And im Still not convinced he Can Phase through a Shadow anyway.

I retract my statement. I did some fact-checking and The Shadow Of Death doesn't even involve any poison. For that technique, anything that falls under the Crow King's shadow simply loses it's mind and is dissolved. The mental aspect needs specific resistance, but unless the shadow has feats of hurting an intangible being, you just can't argue that physical dissolution would work. Now Neron doesn't have knowledge on the Kings, but Emperor Crow's stats aren't remotely as impressive in comparison to that of the other Kings. He can legit get blitzed and one-shot.

I think in general you're severely underestimating Neron. He's FTL and has utterly embarrassed the likes of Alan Scott before, like I posted in my opener. For reference, when Alan cuts loose he can fire blasts that dwarf a planet like he did against Obsidian in JSA vol 1 #9.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Neron has no-sold all of Alan's advances and at one point he kept him as a toy. His ability to stomp planetary characters should be very apparent and consistent at this point, and Crow King's stats don't measure up. I honestly don't see anything stopping Neron from teleporting to the Crow King and 3 or 4 shot him upon being hit with the shadow, due to Neron's quick thinking and the shadow's effects not being literally instantaneous (as opposed to teleportation which is). The shadow is said to cease the thought process of it's victims immediately, but NEO after eating GOD was capable of shaking his body and generating light to counteract CK's shadow after already being under it's influence. There's no proof this was done on reflex so it clearly shows that the effects aren't instantaneous, so Neron would be able to process at least one thought. We're not in a "gg no re get one-shot" situation.

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Chapter 381

Based on the way the Eight Kings actually fought Acacia prior to Neo eating GOD in chapters 376-380, on an opponent they have no knowledge on, they're far more likely to attack one at a time rather than altogether. Considering this is what actually happened.

https://imgur.com/a/MyoPvPJ

Chapter 376 was essentially the same thing. It started with Acacia getting battered by Guinness before being flung into the air, where he was then shot with Derous laser.

https://imgur.com/a/eSSVt12

So this match will essentially be a series of coordinated assaults or mini 1v1s for Neron, allowing him an easier opportunity to one-shot the individual Kings when the opportunity presents itself. In character and at the beginning of the fight, the Eight Kings won't dog pile their opponents. Crow King can't even afford to launch his attacks with any of the other Kings in Neron's immediate vicinity, due to the fact they will get caught up in it. So Neron is very much capable of countering the situation when cornered, and by feats the Crow King is no match for him in close quarters.

Hmm i see. Well in that Case, Thing only become Worse for Neron. More on that Later. If he 'Sporadicly' Chooses to phase through Guinness Direct attacks, He'll be Met with the Powerful AOE Shockwave it Carries(I Showcase this in my opoener). Neron is only going to Phase through the actual Hit itself, He wont be aware there's a shockwave that follows.

When Guinness approaches like Neron like he did Acacia in chapter 376, he will get stomped. The opening strike will pass harmlessly through Neron's intangible body, followed by a physical blow from a character [Neron] who overpowered someone with multi-planet level strength with a huff. Said character [Neron] also beat the living daylights out of Kyle Rayner who is planetary for all intents and purposes.

i Already Apologised for Claiming Neron needed Specific feats of Ripping Souls while Intangible; But if your Going to claim Neron can tank Hits from Bambina, Then at Least Provide feats of him Tanking Such attacks. How on earth is that Specific? Just asking for Durability feats, Plain and simple.

Neron doesn't have planetary+/multi-planetary striking durability feats, which is why I chose to argue him phasing through physical attacks like he's done several times before.

A: I Fell like its awfully important to Realise that Artemis Was Draining More than Half of Diane's Power. Magala Saw that she was going to die and Gave Most of her power to artemis So She could be resurrected; Still an impressive feat(Dont get me wrong there) but it was done a Weakened Wonder woman:

Scans 1-4: Explain that Diana was Heavily Weakened.

...I know. I read the issue. A large chunk of Diana's power and skill were being transferred to Artemis.

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But remind me what physical power and skill have to do with soul resistance again? Neron even blatantly differentiated the two in a scan I posted.

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"Sensing the spell linking you and Artemis, I could hardly resist exploiting it, could I? Just as I can not resist doing this..."

>Proceeds to use his soul attack

It's glaringly obvious that he wasn't exploiting the spell that shared Wonder Woman's power in that instance.

B: Im Assuming that Neron can only Do his Soul Manip one at a Time, Which is ultimately his Downfall(More on this in the Conclusion as well). The Reason ive assumed this is because thats what weve been shown, Hes only used it on one opponent per time.

He'll only be fighting one opponent at a time, so that's fine. The only time the Eight Kings completed an attack all at once was after NEO ate GOD, but it's clear to see why since the main objective of the whole arc was to stop him from doing so.

But he wasnt sending them to hell, was he? He was Banishing them to Hell; Which is Trapping Someone Somewhere, were they are unable to return to. And i heavily Disagree on Sealing and BFR Being the Same. I Can be BFR'ed to America Right now and Walk Back(Though it would take several days), However i Cannot Escape from Jin Mori's Gourd.

Tell me vsw, in order to banish someone somewhere, or trap them in a location they aren't currently in, do you not have to send them there first?

It worked for a Brief Moment; It Stunned him. We quite clearly see his Body temporarily Go Limp, and his Body turn white:

And to Be Honest, thats all that it needs to do. Guinness just needs to Rip out his Soul for 0.000000001 Seconds even for the other Kings to Finish him Off, Wether that be Bambina using Physical strikes, Or Crow kings Poison etc.

The Eight Kings don't fight like that. If Crow King uses his shadow attack while any of the other Kings are anywhere close to Neron's body, they'll get caught in the effects and die. In that very scan you posted of Guinness finally using Soul Sniff against Acacia, the period he was stunned for didn't even provide a large enough window for him to be attacked. Take a look at it again.

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They 8K attacked him after he regained awareness and insulted Guinness, calling him a "mangy mutt" for what he did (attempted soul ripping). Then Pair says "Now!! Let's hit him all together! With all.. our rage!!". Immediately thereafter, on the next page, the Kings attacked at they same time but opted to use Appetite Energy blasts.

Chapter 391
Chapter 391

...Which is the exact same thing the Kings did the first time they attacked him all at once when NEO chomped GOD.

Chapter 380
Chapter 380

Bambina and Mother Snake are notable exceptions, but my point still stands. If the 8K attack together it will be long range. You continue to dredge up these scenarios that while not unrealistic haven't been done. They other Kings have never attacked an opponent while said opponent was "temporarily stunned" from Guinness' Search. I'm pressing you on this because you actually argued that Neron can't soul rip in combat simply because he did so to Mongul after killing him... which I still think is pretty ridiculous.

But I can flip this technicality-adamant approach back on you. Instead of arguing things that they're capable of doing, we'll only argue things that they've actually done. Neron has done everything I've argued so far on-panel, so when have Bambina, Crow or any of the Kings attacked on opponent while said opponent was stunned by Guinness' soul sniff?

Another site said and i quote: 'To Prevent Something functioning in a Normal Way; In other words to restrict movement via being Disabled, Unable to move or Function'. Something BFR Doesn't accomplish.

This is something we're going to have to leave to the voters to decide. In all the time I've been debating on this site, BFR is an automatic victory if the character who's BFR'd doesn't have a way of coming back. I'm not about to spiel into dictionary definitions to dispute the meaning of battle forum slang terms.

And even by that definition of incap, battle field removable prevents a combatant from fighting in a normal way.

Wether or not that increased his durability doesn't matter at this Point, Because regardless Nerons feat of beating down Kyle who has energy Durability feats doesnt matter.

The Blind is a gravitational anomaly, so being inside of it is resisting pressure and force. It's not an energy durability feat.

Meh, I Can Agree Kyles constructs are Planetary, Thats Fair. But they have Planetary energy durability, Which dont apply to Neron using his Fists to Break them.

Again, feats against the Blind don't give Kyle or his constructs energy durability.

Well as We already Discussed, and we both Agreed, Destroying Oa isnt a Planetary Feat, So ill just Ignore this.

Woah woah woah. I never "agreed" the feat wasn't planetary. I dedicated post 31 of this thread to clearing up my stance. There's no way to know for sure whether or not he overloaded Oa's central battery or blew up the core of the planet.

Soul Ripping an alive opponent isnt a Stretch by any Means, That i agree.

But saying he can actively do So In Combat While fighting against 8 FTL Hax individuals(With one of those Hax being his own ability, which is Soul rip)? thats where i have a problem.

Fighting them effectively separately? As I showed, the Eight Kings have only fought as a collective in the final battle against Acacia, and it wasn't a random encountered. Stopping Acacia from eating GOD was already the objective. So on an opponent they have no knowledge on (Neron), you actually can't argue them performing coordinated assaults of the likes you were pressing earlier. Acacia had an extensive lone encounters with Heracles, Bambina, Guinness and Moon if memory serves.

Also, the Eight Kings might all be FTL but half of them don't use their speed in combat, namely Derous, Emperor Crow, Moon, and Sky Deer. They're not the type to blitz an opponent, seeing as their actual fighting style is completely different. Deer King uses his time manip to age his opponents (already been established this won't work on Neron) and he was described as the most gentle and peaceful of the Kings.

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Crow uses his Shadow attack, Moon just tries to suck things into his belly, and Derous just hangs back and fires his laser. Individually these guys are not very threatening at all in comparison to teambusters like Neron.

Did you not understand what i wrote? If Nerons Soul is Temporarily BFR'ed by Guinness he will be K.O.'d. He will Not be able to Teleport out of the Snake king, Because he will be unconscious.

Even if Neron's physical body is destroyed he doesn't die. We saw this in Underworld Unleashed #3 when he absorbed Captain Marvel's soul and imploded due to CM giving it up willingly. He just turned into green, non-corporeal spirit.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Plus I already debunked the Kings attacking Neron in the window the soul sniff technique lasts, and this is still under assumption it would work on him it would work on him in the first place.

Ive addressed Spectre's Feat, So as it is Neron is getting killed in CQC.

Neron outstats all of the Kings individually so if Bambina, Guinness or Heracles engage him in CQC they get beat to death.

Final counters

1. In Order for Neron to even survive for a fraction of a second he's going to have to Take out 2 of the Kings, Which is impossible.

Now the 2 most important Kings in this Bout are Emperor crow and Guinness Because they Posses Abilities that Neron cant counter which are:

  • Guinness Possesses Soul Sniff which can and will temporarily BFR Nerons soul, And because of this Neron will be temporarily Incapacitated; Allowing Mother Snake or Bambina to finish Neron Off with Acid or Physical Blows. Neron Cannot Teleport out of Mother snake or Turn intangible to Avoid Bambina strikes because he will be K.O.'d. Neron Dies
  • Emperor Crow Shadow Posion can and will Oneshot Neron, regardless if he's Intangible or Not(Being intangible doesn't help against such an attack). You even said yourself that Neron wont constantly Be Intangible; He'll only use it to dodge attacks as such. So he Will Not Use it against Emperor crows Shadow anyway, because we did not Agree on full Knowledge. Neron has no Clue that Crow's Shadow contains Poison, So he isnt going to randomly Phase through it. So it Will K.O. Him, Allowing Snake King or Monkey King to Finish him off as he cannot Turn intangible/Teleport out of Mother snake, and He has no durability feats to say he can Tank Bambina's Strikies. Neron Dies.

My main counter to this has already been elaborated but I'll touch upon this one more. The Eight Kings don't actually fight like that. This match will be a series of 1v1s similar to how it was against Acacia, both before NEO ate GOD and after. Even after Acacia ate NEO and started to go off the hinges towards the end of his fight with Toriko, they all got bullied by him 1v1. When they attack together it's usually long range. The only cordinated assault we actually saw was Mother Snake swallowing NEO before plunging into Whale Kings belly.

You deem the soul sniff to be temporary and the window it lasts isn't enough to put down Neron. So both bullet points are wrong. Neron can teleport out of both Mother Snake and Moon after regaining consciousness, then kill them with his own raw power or soul attacks. Crow King can get tele-blitzed and one-shot.

Bambina and the other Kings who use mainly physical attacks will have their strikes phased through and get pummeled.

Nerons only chance at survival is Using Soul Manip to the Kill these 2 kings Simultaneously, But thats the thing, He cant. We'ver only ever Been shown Neron using Soul manip once at a time(On Mongul and Wonder woman), so To State Neron can use Soul Manip on multiple Opponents at once without Proof is simply HeadCannon(Imagine me Stating Guinness can use Soul rip on multiple opponents at once), So its either:

Plus, Neron wont know that Guinness and Emperor Crow have these amazing abilites and they need to be taken out first; There are 8 Kings here, whats to say Neron wont Soul Rip Moon? Or Sky Deer? or Heracles? etc

Have you realized that your entire chance of victory depends on these two Kings (Crow King and Guinness) using their most lethal attacks at the drop of the hat? Let's say they'll do so. The odds of either of them attacking him individually at once are 1/8 anyway... Assuming either of them do, their won't be interference from the other Kings in that duration like you're arguing.

2. Spectre's Feats were Debunked, So Neron has no Scaling Apart from Kyle(Which isnt even Legit)

Gee, where do i start with this?

Nowhere.

3. Neron Lacks Durability feats.

Something i only realised a while ago, Neron is essentially a Glass Canon; Hiding behind 'Multi-Planetary' Striking feats and Intangibility. His Best Durability feats are Tanking Planetary Hits from Kyle, which is good, But sadly not enough in this Case.

While he's K.O'd, He cant survive any hits from Bambina, and he cant phase through them, So thats GG.

Neron has no durability feats? What? Did you even read my opener? The dude completely ignored the combined assault from a JL roster that included Wally West, Alan Scott, Martian Manhunter, Kyle Rayner, Wonder Woman and Captain Atom... then got bored from stomping them. He also no-sold a concentrated energy blast from Kyle.

4. Neron lacks Methods of Hurting the Kings excpet through Soul Manip(Which can only be done one at a time from what we Know), His best Physical attacks:

  • Hurt Kyle, Who only has Planet level energy durability(So Scaling is void.)
  • He Blasts didnt Even Break Kyle's Shields, Only His Punches did. But again, Kyle has only tanked energy attacks, So Scaling becomes Null.

The ONLY Feat Neron has thats actually applicable is killing Mongul, But Mongul himself doesnt have any impressive Feats, So Neron isn't hurting the Kings, And BFR Doesnt even count as a win here So the only thing Neron has going is Soul Manip which I've dealt with All ready.

Neron simply cannot win this.

Ok, this is just false.

1. The Blind one-shot a planet by barely brushing up on it, and being a gravitational anomaly, Kyle no-selling it's effects is planetary+ physical durability now that I think about it (since you need above planet busting force to hurt him).

2. Neron broke on of Kyle's shields with a blast.

3. Mongul beat the shit out of Kyle physically and briefly held his own against Kyle and Superman, which is definitely a noteworthy feat and makes Neron stomping him impressive.

In Summation

Before I start with my conclusion, I'd like the voters to acknowledge that vsw made a LOT of concessions throughout the course of the debate. And he also ignored a lot of counters made. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be taken into account when reviewing how effectively we debated our points and which of our strategies are more likely.

Now, the imgur albums I created and linked showed the main takeaways from the Eight Kings battle with Acacia. (After Acacia ate NEO they were slaughtered mercilessly so I didn't bother showing that). You can see how they actually fought. Acacia traded blows with Bambina individually, went head to head with Guinness individually, broke Moon's shell individually, got trapped in Deer King's back channel for nearly a whole chapter and there was no interference from any of the other Kings when it happened etc. Keep in mind Deer King can make certain individuals unaffected by the flow of time in his back channel, but it was still stated the other Kings kept their distance.

No Caption Provided

So I think in a random encounter it's safe to say vsw's two main strategies aren't likely.

Which leads me to my next point. Neron has a counter for everything the Kings can do individually and can stomp any of them 1v1 on account of he got bored from stomping heralds like MMH, Alan and Kyle (I can not stress how impressive that is).

  • Bambina - He's mostly a brick. Neron is fast enough to keep up with him, can phase through his physical attacks and has greater striking power than his durability can take after repeated hits.
  • Guinness - Also physical but has Guinnes Search, in which he can temporarily sniff his opponents soul out. The duration for which the soul is out of the body isn't enough for other 8K to take advantage of, and there's no proof they would try something like that anyway with no knowledge on Neron. Other than that, Neron can inflict pain on Guinness' own soul and kill him with the wave of his land like he did Diana, or give him the smack-down he gave Bambina.
  • Deer King - Back channel is useless and only stalls someone with immortality. After a while it does drain their energy like it did to NEO, but Neron can wave his hand and kill Sky Deer with a soul attack like he did Wonder Woman and Guinness.
  • Moon - Has the highest capture level but is the least impressive in combat. Neron can travel dimensions and teleport so getting sucked into his belly is easily countered, and he doesn't have any durability feats to tank his hits either.
  • Mother Snake - Uses her FTL speed to swallow opponents, and can dissolve them with her juices. Neron can teleport out of her stomach though and kill her any of the ways he killed the previous Kings.
  • Crow King - The Shadow attack would be a problem but boy does teleportation come in handy. Even if the scenario doesn't play out like I said and CK manages to get him, destruction of his physical body doesn't stop Neron. CK can also just get blitzed and killed.
  • Derous - Also really unimpressive. His laser is the only attack he has going for him. It can be phased through.
  • Heracles - Neron can breath in space so his vacuum attack won't work. His stomp isn't planetary and his breath can be phased through.

Conclusion: Individually, the Eight Kings simply can't beat someone who overpowered the Spectre with a huff and giggled while wearing Alan Scott as a fashion accessory. This is just much better than anything they've done. Like I said in one of my previous conclusions, them attacking him all together doesn't make much of a difference.

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Neron? Cool. Tag after each post.

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#38  Edited By Hope_w

Both bad cos' bad

T4v

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Rebuttal III

B: Your seriously Over Estimating Spectre's Feat.

If i completely Ignore all the points ive made above, We Actually get a Scan Showcasing Spectre's Size Compared to a Planet(Keep in mind to Look at the size of Spectre's Hands compared to the Planet):

The planet he's touching in this scan with a massive visible ring is a clear gas giant. Which his full body is still larger than by the way.

Its a Gas Giant based on what Exactly? The fact that it has Ring? Ill Have you know that not just Gas giants Have rings(You can watch a Short Video on why that is), But the Saturns Moon Rhea Has its own Ring as well; Basically having a Ring System doesn't automatically mean 'Gas Giant'. Plus Spectre Litteraly Rested his hand upon the Planet, and Gas giants are made of just that(Mostly at least), Gas. Physical contact on a real Gas Giant is Nigh Impossible. Plus We don't even have a Set size for those Planet. having a Ring System doesn't automatically Make the Planet large, as i Mentioned earlier the Moon Rhea has a Ring system and only has a radius of 764 KM; For comparison our moons Own is 1,737Km, and Earth is 6,371Km.

Now Take a Look at what Spectre busted:

That Measly 'Planet' is Barely Bigger than Spectre's hands; Its Only around Moon size(Eyeballing it), Small Planet sized at Best, and you're calling Spectre Multi-Planet for busting that is wrong for a Plethora of reasons:

Its Insanely Small. Multi-Planetary?!?! C'mon.

He only Busted 1 Single Planet.

You've Jumped a Scaling Step; It goes Planetary, Planet+, Then Multi-Planetary. Busting a Planet doesn't make Someone Multi-Planetary, Because if It does then Bambina Becomes Large Planet Level Via Overpowering The 4HK Using 240 Trillions cells(and 1 of the Heavenly Kings Using 60 Cells are Multi-Planet) etc etc...... What im trying to say is,Scaling becomes Incredibly Messy.

Did you not read the issue or are you just scrutinizing individual scans? First of all, my claim was that Spectre had multi-planetary strength, which if you had read the issue you would know is entirely substantiated. I didn't post his full fight with Azmodus. Establishing shots for Spectre and Azmodus have already been posted, so it should be irrefutable that they were both dwarfing planets by several times (I mean, they could hold them like basketballs), with Spectre actually being comparable to a gas giant.

With that in mind, towards the end of the issue we see a few things happen.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Azmodus launches a volley of what appear to be moons or asteroids at Spectre. He then grabs his face, only for Spectre to grab Azmodus and throw him, sending him flying into a planet, destroying it.
  • This already endows Spectre with multi-planetary strength, since he can easily throw something that was dwarfing planets and unintentionally destroy a planet as collateral.
  • Scan 2: Azmodus binds Spectre in his chains of fire. Another perspective shot. Notice how Azmodus' left hand is busting a planet just by him waving it back.
  • Scan 3-4: Spectre wrestles Azmodus, ripping off his cape. He then prepares to kill him in a single blow.

A: Dealing with Scan 1) Spectre didnt destroy any Planets by throwing Azmodus, If Look at the Scans you clearly See Most of the Planet is still in tact:

No Caption Provided

And above everything Else, Lifting Azmodus would be just that; a Lifting Feat, Which Means he would have Multi-Planet Lifting strength which isnt applicable in Striking.

Scans 2: That Doesn't Look like Busting to Me, Merely Shattering One side of the Surface.....; Regardless calling Spectre Multi-Planet via doing that is faulty as well, Because the Size of the Planets arent disclosed. In Every Scan which Compares Azmosdul and Spectre to Planets, Glance at the size of their Hand, Then Take a Look at the size of the so called 'Planet's They Bust. They really aren't Anything Special:

Again, Compare sizes of Planets to thier hands
Again, Compare sizes of Planets to thier hands
So Called Busted Planet.
So Called Busted Planet.

Though ill Guess we'll have to let the Voters decide, Busting That Planet(Especially since we don't have the Size of them, and are just comparing Random planets to the size of other Random planets) Isn't Multi-Planetary in my Book. Planet+ if anything.

C: Are we just going to ignore the Fact that Spectre was HUGE In those scans of busting the 'Planet', And regular sized When fighting Neron? Equating His Striking when his Size was Alterated is Just Straight Up Poor Scaling.....

This doesn't make any sense. It's not like when he was large in his fight with Azmodus, he had a mass increase in comparison to his physical form, since he was on a separate plane that just showed what he was capable of doing in the physical world. Honestly I just don't think you understand The Spectre. Do you not realize that he warps reality, space and time? Not to mention he's a spirit (known as the Spirit of Vengeance) and materializes physically when he chooses. Saying that "equating his striking when his size was altered is poor scaling" isn't true due to the nature of his being. He's not a flesh-and-blood entity with a set mass, who operates within the confines of those absolutes.

Admittedly i don't Have a Ton of Knowledge on the Spectre, Though regardless from what you've Shown he doesn't have Multi-Planetary Feats anyway, so i Digress.

BFR Isn't Really doing Much to Help Neron at this Point, He hasn't shown the Skill to do it in Combat Plus, This battle is fight to K.O., Death or incap ; BFR Wont suffice(Even Though you think it will, ill get to That Later on).

BFR is most definitely an option for victory that falls under incap... what are you on about?

As you Said, We'll let the Voters decide on That.

A Shadow is an absence of Light; Made by an object blocking rays of Light. Personally I Don't see how that requires Physical Contact.

And we didn't agree on Full Knowloge; Neron wont even Know that Crow Kings Shadow Is an attack, Or That He'd Need to go intangible(Which im not even convinced would work) in Order to escape from its effects, Which Cause anything thats its cast Upon to Loose Thought; Essentially its objective and Die:

Its a Huge Stretch to say that in a Combat Scenario Neron is Going to see a Random Shadow and Phase through it without any Previous Knowledge of its abilities. The Opening the Shadow would create would allow Any one of the Eight kings to Finish him off using some method or Hax(More on this in the Conclusion). And im Still not convinced he Can Phase through a Shadow anyway.

I retract my statement. I did some fact-checking and The Shadow Of Death doesn't even involve any poison. For that technique, anything that falls under the Crow King's shadow simply loses it's mind and is dissolved. The mental aspect needs specific resistance, but unless the shadow has feats of hurting an intangible being, you just can't argue that physical dissolution would work. Now Neron doesn't have knowledge on the Kings, but Emperor Crow's stats aren't remotely as impressive in comparison to that of the other Kings. He can legit get blitzed and one-shot.

His Durability and Striking may not be as impressive in comparison, However his Speed is rather decent, You need to remember that he Surprised Neo with his Shadow, the only thing that saved him was his evolution abilities:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I think in general you're severely underestimating Neron. He's FTL and has utterly embarrassed the likes of Alan Scott before, like I posted in my opener. For reference, when Alan cuts loose he can fire blasts that dwarf a planet like he did against Obsidian in JSA vol 1 #9.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Neron has no-sold all of Alan's advances and at one point he kept him as a toy. His ability to stomp planetary characters should be very apparent and consistent at this point, and Crow King's stats don't measure up. I honestly don't see anything stopping Neron from teleporting to the Crow King and 3 or 4 shot him upon being hit with the shadow, due to Neron's quick thinking and the shadow's effects not being literally instantaneous (as opposed to teleportation which is). The shadow is said to cease the thought process of it's victims immediately, but NEO after eating GOD was capable of shaking his body and generating light to counteract CK's shadow after already being under it's influence. There's no proof this was done on reflex so it clearly shows that the effects aren't instantaneous, so Neron would be able to process at least one thought. We're not in a "gg no re get one-shot" situation.

Neo Emitting Light was Because of his Ability; Neo Adapts, Or evolves to Almost everything and Anything, Thats One of the main reasons that Neo has been able to Survive for so Long:

No Caption Provided

What Further backs up that it was Neo Adaptability that allowed him to survive was the fact that Neo can Split up Fragments from Himself, essentially these are Weaker Clones or Neo That Posses Almost all his Abilities(Including Shapeshifting, Consumption, etc etc), The Only ability were shown them not possessing is Evolution:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Now, When the Neo Spawns come under fire from the Eight Kings, id like to focus on 3 unique Abilites, Soul sniff, Emperor Shadow and Sky deers Back channel. These 3 abilities Killed the Neo Spawns quite Casually, However Acacia was able to counter each and everyone of these abilities. The Only difference between the Neo Spawns and Neo himself is Evoulotion, Ergo thats what allowed him so Survive:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11

  • Scan 9 and 3: Neo Spore killed By Emperor Shadow
  • Scan 6 and 7: Neo Adapts to Shadow, Via releasing a Bright Light.
  • Scan 1: Neo Spore Killed via Sky deers back channel
  • Scans 5,8 and 4: Neo adapting to Back Channel
  • Scans 10 and 11: Neo Spore Knocked out Via Soul Sniff
  • Scan 2: Soul Sniff works for a bit, then Neo adapts to it.

Now you may think im making up the fact that the Neo Spawns don't have Evoulotion, But the Reason Acacia adapts to the Sky Deers back channel is Due to the fact that the increased Time helped to speed up the process, However under the exact Same circumstances the Neo Spawn was unable to do this; Ergo, The Neo Spawns don't posses the Evoulotion ability:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Neo Spore coulndt evolve in Sky Deers back channel like Acacia could, Ergo they do not posses Evoulotion like he does.

Essentially, The moment That Crows shadow hits Neron his thought are getting stripped away Instantly, and if for some reason that didn't Work, Guinness rips out his Soul, K.O.s him for a bit, tosses him in the air and then Crow hits him with his Shadow. The Shadow can be cast upwards, So you cant claim 'EC Cant use it as it would effect the rest of the Kings':

No Caption Provided

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Based on the way the Eight Kings actually fought Acacia prior to Neo eating GOD in chapters 376-380, on an opponent they have no knowledge on, they're far more likely to attack one at a time rather than altogether. Considering this is what actually happened.

https://imgur.com/a/MyoPvPJ

Chapter 376 was essentially the same thing. It started with Acacia getting battered by Guinness before being flung into the air, where he was then shot with Derous laser.

https://imgur.com/a/eSSVt12

So this match will essentially be a series of coordinated assaults or mini 1v1s for Neron, allowing him an easier opportunity to one-shot the individual Kings when the opportunity presents itself. In character and at the beginning of the fight, the Eight Kings won't dog pile their opponents.

In Both these Links, Were showcased the Eight kings Teamwork; Bambina Knocks Acacia towards Moon, and Guinness throws Acacia into the Air so Derious laser Can hit him, Both 2 showcases of their Teamwork.Which by frankly is more than enough to take down Neron.

If Guinness rips out Nerons soul, briefly K.O.ing him, then throws him into the air(He cant turn intangible Because he's K.O'd) so that Crows Shadow can finish him Off, what Do you expect Neron to do to combat That situation? Nothing, Because as you Already conceded Before, Neron doesnt have feats of resisting Soul Rip, So he Dies.

Crow King can't even afford to launch his attacks with any of the other Kings in Neron's immediate vicinity, due to the fact they will get caught up in it. So Neron is very much capable of countering the situation when cornered, and by feats the Crow King is no match for him in close quarters.

Crow King is capable of casting its Shadow Upwards.

Hmm i see. Well in that Case, Thing only become Worse for Neron. More on that Later. If he 'Sporadicly' Chooses to phase through Guinness Direct attacks, He'll be Met with the Powerful AOE Shockwave it Carries(I Showcase this in my opoener). Neron is only going to Phase through the actual Hit itself, He wont be aware there's a shockwave that follows.

When Guinness approaches like Neron like he did Acacia in chapter 376, he will get stomped. The opening strike will pass harmlessly through Neron's intangible body, followed by a physical blow from a character [Neron] who overpowered someone with multi-planet level strength with a huff. Said character [Neron] also beat the living daylights out of Kyle Rayner who is planetary for all intents and purposes.

Did you Not read What i posted? If Guinness Hits him with a Paw Neron will Phase through it, and For Neron to Hit Guinness like you're claiming he would stop being intangible, Which means the Huge AOE Of the Blast would Hit Neron and Kill him; You Yourself admitted He doesn't have Multi-Planetary feats so Neron Dies.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Though as ive shown Previously, IC Guinness will Start the fight Out with Soul Rip.

i Already Apologised for Claiming Neron needed Specific feats of Ripping Souls while Intangible; But if your Going to claim Neron can tank Hits from Bambina, Then at Least Provide feats of him Tanking Such attacks. How on earth is that Specific? Just asking for Durability feats, Plain and simple.

Neron doesn't have planetary+/multi-planetary striking durability feats, which is why I chose to argue him phasing through physical attacks like he's done several times before.

Ive Dealt with this Above; Guinness Hits Come with dangerous AOE's

A: I Fell like its awfully important to Realise that Artemis Was Draining More than Half of Diane's Power. Magala Saw that she was going to die and Gave Most of her power to artemis So She could be resurrected; Still an impressive feat(Dont get me wrong there) but it was done a Weakened Wonder woman:

Scans 1-4: Explain that Diana was Heavily Weakened.

...I know. I read the issue. A large chunk of Diana's power and skill were being transferred to Artemis.

No Caption Provided

But remind me what physical power and skill have to do with soul resistance again? Neron even blatantly differentiated the two in a scan I posted

Fair Point

B: Im Assuming that Neron can only Do his Soul Manip one at a Time, Which is ultimately his Downfall(More on this in the Conclusion as well). The Reason ive assumed this is because thats what weve been shown, Hes only used it on one opponent per time.

He'll only be fighting one opponent at a time, so that's fine. The only time the Eight Kings completed an attack all at once was after NEO ate GOD, but it's clear to see why since the main objective of the whole arc was to stop him from doing so.

And what to you think the Main objective of this Fight would be?

But he wasnt sending them to hell, was he? He was Banishing them to Hell; Which is Trapping Someone Somewhere, were they are unable to return to. And i heavily Disagree on Sealing and BFR Being the Same. I Can be BFR'ed to America Right now and Walk Back(Though it would take several days), However i Cannot Escape from Jin Mori's Gourd.

Tell me vsw, in order to banish someone somewhere, or trap them in a location they aren't currently in, do you not have to send them there first?

Fair Point, though as you already admitted Neron has no feats of resisting Soul Bfr; Showing him resisting Regular BFR Doesnt Help your case.

It worked for a Brief Moment; It Stunned him. We quite clearly see his Body temporarily Go Limp, and his Body turn white:

And to Be Honest, thats all that it needs to do. Guinness just needs to Rip out his Soul for 0.000000001 Seconds even for the other Kings to Finish him Off, Wether that be Bambina using Physical strikes, Or Crow kings Poison etc.

The Eight Kings don't fight like that. If Crow King uses his shadow attack while any of the other Kings are anywhere close to Neron's body, they'll get caught in the effects and die. In that very scan you posted of Guinness finally using Soul Sniff against Acacia, the period he was stunned for didn't even provide a large enough window for him to be attacked. Take a look at it again.

Ive Dealt with the Crow Kings effect shenanigans,Which can easily be bypassed Via throwing Neron in the Air(Something Guinness has been know to do, And Herac Breathe Can do as well); And Acacia is honestly a Bad character to Compare Soul resistance feats to. He's the Only character in the serious to Resist having their soul Fully sucked out of their Body(Bar Guinness Himself, Obviously) and He has Evoulotion/Adapting Capabilities. Neo Spawn, Starjun and Toriko all had their Souls removed and were Temporarily K.O.'d:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scans 1 and 3: Neo Spawn gets his Soul Ripped
  • Scans 5 and 4: Starjun gets his Soul ripped
  • Scans 4 and 2: Toriko Gets his Soul Ripped.

Resisting Soul Sniff is a feat for Acacia and Acacia Alone, If Guinness Soul Rips Neron he's gettig K.O'd Because he Doesn't have sufficient Feats

They 8K attacked him after he regained awareness and insulted Guinness, calling him a "mangy mutt" for what he did (attempted soul ripping). Then Pair says "Now!! Let's hit him all together! With all.. our rage!!". Immediately thereafter, on the next page, the Kings attacked at they same time but opted to use Appetite Energy blasts.

It Seems you lacking Context; The Eight kings, and Co wanted to Hit Acacia with a Blast of Anger(Because thats basically his Weakness) and So they wanted to combine all their attacks together to make it more powerful. Derious Laser was taking too long to Charge, So the SKy deer put him in a Back channel, But it was still taking too Long. Acacia was about to Charge at Derious to Kill him and Guinness Soul Ripped Him, Giving them enough time to Fire their combined Blast:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Scan 1: Acacia See's Derious is about to fire his Laser, And even though its been sped up it still takes too long; and he's about to go slaughter Derious, Calling Derious 'Too Slow'
  • Scan 2: Guinness intervenes Via Soul Sniffing him; This Temporarily K.O.'s Acacia long enough for Derious to get his laser active, Then they are all able to Fire at Once(Like the Blue Nitro told them to).

Essentially, Soul Sniff Gave them the opening they required.

Plus Acacia resisting Soul Rip is a feat of his own, If Guinness Soul Rips Neron his Shit is coming way Out due to Neron lacking sufficient feats, Allowing an opening for an Appetite Energy Blast; Which is Multi-Planetary when Using the combined forces of the eight Kings:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Or, Allowing Guinness Throws Neron into the Air where Crow's Shadow gets Him, Lobotimizing him in the Process. Neron will be K.O'd and Lack a Way to survive.

Which is the exact same thing the Kings did the first time they attacked him all at once when NEO chomped GOD.

Bambina and Mother Snake are notable exceptions, but my point still stands. If the 8K attack together it will be long range. You continue to dredge up these scenarios that while not unrealistic haven't been done. They other Kings have never attacked an opponent while said opponent was "temporarily stunned" from Guinness' Search. I'm pressing you on this because you actually argued that Neron can't soul rip in combat simply because he did so to Mongul after killing him... which I still think is pretty ridiculous.

But I can flip this technicality-adamant approach back on you. Instead of arguing things that they're capable of doing, we'll only argue things that they've actually done. Neron has done everything I've argued so far on-panel, so when have Bambina, Crow or any of the Kings attacked on opponent while said opponent was stunned by Guinness' soul sniff?

You Must've misread my argument.

I Claimed Neron hasn't Done Soul Ripping in a Combat scenerio, So Stating he can use it in Combat is Stretch; Meanwhile all feats i've showcased of the Kings are in combat scenario's.

Me Using the 'Technicality-adamant Approach' Would be Akin to asking you to Show Scans of Neron teleporting Out of a Shadow which Stops Thought, Or Teleporting Out of Matter Melting Acid for example; Oddly Specific Thing Which we know haven't happened, Not Me asking for Combat related Scans.

Another site said and i quote: 'To Prevent Something functioning in a Normal Way; In other words to restrict movement via being Disabled, Unable to move or Function'. Something BFR Doesn't accomplish.

This is something we're going to have to leave to the voters to decide. In all the time I've been debating on this site, BFR is an automatic victory if the character who's BFR'd doesn't have a way of coming back. I'm not about to spiel into dictionary definitions to dispute the meaning of battle forum slang terms.

And even by that definition of incap, battle field removable prevents a combatant from fighting in a normal way.

Like You Said, we'll leave it up to the Voters; Though Bfr Doesn't Inhibit a combatant from fighting in a normal way I.E. Moving etc.

Wether or not that increased his durability doesn't matter at this Point, Because regardless Nerons feat of beating down Kyle who has energy Durability feats doesnt matter.

The Blind is a gravitational anomaly, so being inside of it is resisting pressure and force. It's not an energy durability feat.

Meh, I Can Agree Kyles constructs are Planetary, Thats Fair. But they have Planetary energy durability, Which dont apply to Neron using his Fists to Break them.

Again, feats against the Blind don't give Kyle or his constructs energy durability.

Kyle Being Planet level Doesn't help with Nerons Feats all too much; Or give him a way to win this Match unfortunately.

Well as We already Discussed, and we both Agreed, Destroying Oa isnt a Planetary Feat, So ill just Ignore this.

Woah woah woah. I never "agreed" the feat wasn't planetary. I dedicated post 31 of this thread to clearing up my stance. There's no way to know for sure whether or not he overloaded Oa's central battery or blew up the core of the planet.

I Honestly Couldn't Care less whether or Not he Overloaded the Central Battery or blew up the Core, Because in Both these instances These are Energy durability Feats; Irrelevant.

Soul Ripping an alive opponent isnt a Stretch by any Means, That i agree.

But saying he can actively do So In Combat While fighting against 8 FTL Hax individuals(With one of those Hax being his own ability, which is Soul rip)? thats where i have a problem.

Fighting them effectively separately? As I showed, the Eight Kings have only fought as a collective in the final battle against Acacia, and it wasn't a random encountered. Stopping Acacia from eating GOD was already the objective. So on an opponent they have no knowledge on (Neron), you actually can't argue them performing coordinated assaults of the likes you were pressing earlier. Acacia had an extensive lone encounters with Heracles, Bambina, Guinness and Moon if memory serves.

The Eight kings Objective Here would obviously be to Kill Neron(And vice Versa) So they Of Course will perform Coordinated attacks; The Eight kings didn't have knowledge on Acacia abilities and all they were there to do was Stop Him, Much like they're here to do to Neron.

Also, the Eight Kings might all be FTL but half of them don't use their speed in combat, namely Derous, Emperor Crow, Moon, and Sky Deer. They're not the type to blitz an opponent, seeing as their actual fighting style is completely different. Deer King uses his time manip to age his opponents (already been established this won't work on Neron) and he was described as the most gentle and peaceful of the Kings.

No Caption Provided

Crow uses his Shadow attack, Moon just tries to suck things into his belly, and Derous just hangs back and fires his laser. Individually these guys are not very threatening at all in comparison to teambusters like Neron.

Luckily the 8 Kings have Great Teamwork, Meaning they can quite Easily overcome this obstacle(More on this in the conclusion)

Did you not understand what i wrote? If Nerons Soul is Temporarily BFR'ed by Guinness he will be K.O.'d. He will Not be able to Teleport out of the Snake king, Because he will be unconscious.

Even if Neron's physical body is destroyed he doesn't die. We saw this in Underworld Unleashed #3 when he absorbed Captain Marvel's soul and imploded due to CM giving it up willingly. He just turned into green, non-corporeal spirit.

Crow Kings ability Counters this Perfectly, As Soon as Guinness Tosses Neron into the Air after Soul ripping Him, He'll Lose his Objective; He'll forget Why He's fighting and Who He is, Essentially Lobotomizing Him, Allowing the Kings to win Via Incapacitation.

No Caption Provided

Ive addressed Spectre's Feat, So as it is Neron is getting killed in CQC.

Neron outstats all of the Kings individually so if Bambina, Guinness or Heracles engage him in CQC they get beat to death.

Final counters

1. In Order for Neron to even survive for a fraction of a second he's going to have to Take out 2 of the Kings, Which is impossible.

Now the 2 most important Kings in this Bout are Emperor crow and Guinness Because they Posses Abilities that Neron cant counter which are:

  • Guinness Possesses Soul Sniff which can and will temporarily BFR Nerons soul, And because of this Neron will be temporarily Incapacitated; Allowing Mother Snake or Bambina to finish Neron Off with Acid or Physical Blows. Neron Cannot Teleport out of Mother snake or Turn intangible to Avoid Bambina strikes because he will be K.O.'d. Neron Dies
  • Emperor Crow Shadow Posion can and will Oneshot Neron, regardless if he's Intangible or Not(Being intangible doesn't help against such an attack). You even said yourself that Neron wont constantly Be Intangible; He'll only use it to dodge attacks as such. So he Will Not Use it against Emperor crows Shadow anyway, because we did not Agree on full Knowledge. Neron has no Clue that Crow's Shadow contains Poison, So he isnt going to randomly Phase through it. So it Will K.O. Him, Allowing Snake King or Monkey King to Finish him off as he cannot Turn intangible/Teleport out of Mother snake, and He has no durability feats to say he can Tank Bambina's Strikies. Neron Dies.

My main counter to this has already been elaborated but I'll touch upon this one more. The Eight Kings don't actually fight like that. This match will be a series of 1v1s similar to how it was against Acacia, both before NEO ate GOD and after. Even after Acacia ate NEO and started to go off the hinges towards the end of his fight with Toriko, they all got bullied by him 1v1. When they attack together it's usually long range. The only cordinated assault we actually saw was Mother Snake swallowing NEO before plunging into Whale Kings belly.

You mean apart from Bambina Punching Acacia towards Moon to try and Swallow him, Right?:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Scans 2,3 and 1: Bambina Hits Acacia towards Moon in an attempt to BFR Acacia

Or Guinness Stalling Acacia long enough Before Tossing him in the Air, Allowing Derious Laser to Pierce him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Read in order of Scan 4,2,3, 5 and 1.

Or When Sky Deer Put Derious in a Back channel in order to fully charge his laser Faster?:

No Caption Provided

Or Guinness Soul Ripping Acacia to allow derious to fully charge his laser as well:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The Eight Kings Do Fight Like this; they don't all launch their Hax at once(That ill agree on), But they constantly work together Using their Teamwork to take their Opponents Down. Guinness using his Soul rip to save Derious is the best example of this; Derious wasn't ready to attack and is about to get Killed, So Guinness intervenes and uses Soul rip to Stall him Long enough for them to all attack Together.

You deem the soul sniff to be temporary and the window it lasts isn't enough to put down Neron. So both bullet points are wrong.

A: Soul Sniff Stalled Acacia long enough for the Eight kings and Co to fire off a Blast.

B: Acacia is the only character in the serious(Bar guinness) to Not actually get Knocked Out Via Soul Sniff, So you need to Stop comparing Neron to Him because thats a Feat for Acacia, and Only Acacia. If Guinness Soul Rips Neron is getting K.O'd long enough for Guinness to throw Neron into Crows Shadow.

Neron can teleport out of both Mother Snake and Moon after regaining consciousness, then kill them with his own raw power or soul attacks. Crow King can get tele-blitzed and one-shot.

Bambina and the other Kings who use mainly physical attacks will have their strikes phased through and get pummeled.

Neron will be K.O'd Via Soul Sniff, So he cant Phase. And as you conceded earlier, Neron doesn't have sufficient durability Feats to say he isn't getting Killed by Bambina.

Nerons only chance at survival is Using Soul Manip to the Kill these 2 kings Simultaneously, But thats the thing, He cant. We'ver only ever Been shown Neron using Soul manip once at a time(On Mongul and Wonder woman), so To State Neron can use Soul Manip on multiple Opponents at once without Proof is simply HeadCannon(Imagine me Stating Guinness can use Soul rip on multiple opponents at once), So its either:

Plus, Neron wont know that Guinness and Emperor Crow have these amazing abilites and they need to be taken out first; There are 8 Kings here, whats to say Neron wont Soul Rip Moon? Or Sky Deer? or Heracles? etc

Have you realized that your entire chance of victory depends on these two Kings (Crow King and Guinness) using their most lethal attacks at the drop of the hat? Let's say they'll do so.

Yes, Because thats IC to Do So:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1 and 2: Guinness Doesnt wait to see who he's Fighting, He instantly Soul Rips
  • Scan 3 and 4: Neo fragment instantly Flies away because it knows the Crow king will Activate its Shadow right away, In the next scan we see Crow king instantly shine the Shadow upwards.

Though Higherpower, This isn't a road i Think you want to go down because, Like you, I Can reverse this Logic and ask you the same question;

You realise Your entire chance of victory depends on Neron using His Most Lethal attack(Soul Manip) at the drop of a Hat? Ive Shown both CK And Guinness using their abilities instantly , Can you do the same?

The odds of either of them attacking him individually at once are 1/8 anyway... Assuming either of them do, their won't be interference from the other Kings in that duration like you're arguing.

This Goes against what were shown, They Eight kings dont Fire their hax at Once, but they have Teamwork.

Guinness Threw Acacia into the Path of Derious laser

Snake King Charged Into Moon so Derious Could fire his laser

Bambina punched Acacia towards Moon

Sky Deer put Derious into a Back channel to speed up his Laser.

All These Show that the Kings will in fact work together. They just dont fire off their Hax at Once.

2. Spectre's Feats were Debunked, So Neron has no Scaling Apart from Kyle(Which isnt even Legit)

Gee, where do i start with this?

Nowhere.

Well i already revisited the feat Again, and im still not seeing Multi-Planetary Feats for spectre.

3. Neron Lacks Durability feats.

Something i only realised a while ago, Neron is essentially a Glass Canon; Hiding behind 'Multi-Planetary' Striking feats and Intangibility. His Best Durability feats are Tanking Planetary Hits from Kyle, which is good, But sadly not enough in this Case.

While he's K.O'd, He cant survive any hits from Bambina, and he cant phase through them, So thats GG.

Neron has no durability feats? What? Did you even read my opener? The dude completely ignored the combined assault from a JL roster that included Wally West, Alan Scott, Martian Manhunter, Kyle Rayner, Wonder Woman and Captain Atom... then got bored from stomping them. He also no-sold a concentrated energy blast from Kyle.

He has No Durability feats on the Multi-Planetary Scale, You Conceded this yourself earlier. He's Getting oneshot by either Guinness or Bambina , Who Will Hit Neron once he's K.O'd

4. Neron lacks Methods of Hurting the Kings excpet through Soul Manip(Which can only be done one at a time from what we Know), His best Physical attacks:

  • Hurt Kyle, Who only has Planet level energy durability(So Scaling is void.)
  • He Blasts didnt Even Break Kyle's Shields, Only His Punches did. But again, Kyle has only tanked energy attacks, So Scaling becomes Null.

The ONLY Feat Neron has thats actually applicable is killing Mongul, But Mongul himself doesnt have any impressive Feats, So Neron isn't hurting the Kings, And BFR Doesnt even count as a win here So the only thing Neron has going is Soul Manip which I've dealt with All ready.

Neron simply cannot win this.

Ok, this is just false.

1. The Blind one-shot a planet by barely brushing up on it, and being a gravitational anomaly, Kyle no-selling it's effects is planetary+ physical durability now that I think about it (since you need above planet busting force to hurt him).

Alright, Neron Posses Multi-Planet Striking... Just like Bambina and Guinness. Luckily Guinness Tanked Multi-Planet attacks from Acacia(These were showcased in my Opener) So he'll be Just Fine, As has Moon.

2. Neron broke on of Kyle's shields with a blast.

Okay.

3. Mongul beat the shit out of Kyle physically and briefly held his own against Kyle and Superman, which is definitely a noteworthy feat and makes Neron stomping him impressive.

Okay. Doesn't change the Outcome of this Bout unfortunately

Conclusion

Before I start with my conclusion, I'd like the voters to acknowledge that vsw made a LOT of concessions throughout the course of the debate. Not necessarily a bad thing, but this should be taken into account when reviewing how effectively we debated our points and which of our strategies are more likely.

Its Important to Note all 'Concessions' i made Were Claims against Neron Because i have little to no Knowledge on him a whole.

Though you yourself conceded Neron doesn't have Multi-Plantery durability or Soul Resistance; Which are 2 of the main reason why Neron looses this fight.

Now, the imgur albums I created and linked showed the main takeaways from the Eight Kings battle with Acacia. (After Acacia ate NEO they were slaughtered mercilessly so I didn't bother showing that). You can see how they actually fought. Acacia traded blows with Bambina individually

Before Punching him towards Moon.

went head to head with Guinness individually,

Who then threw him towards Derious Laser

broke Moon's shell individually,

???

This is a feat For Acacia, what does this have to do with the Kings not fighting Together? Did you expect the 8 Kings to Jump in and Tank the Hit for Moon or something?

got trapped in Deer King's back channel for nearly a whole chapter and there was no interference from any of the other Kings when it happened etc. Keep in mind Deer King can make certain individuals unaffected by the flow of time in his back channel, but it was still stated the other Kings kept their distance.

Again, they don't fire their hax at Once, they Use Teamwork to take down their Opponents; Ive showcased this Many, Many times.

So I think in a random encounter it's safe to say vsw's two main strategies aren't likely.

You dont want to go down this Road as well, Because no offence, But this 'They arent going to use their main abilities because its a random encounter' Argument is Kinda dumb, Because they all used their abilities right away against the Neo Fragments.

Plus i can flip this argument right back at you; when Neron was fighting Kyle, Mongul and Spectre, Wonder woman , Shazam w/the Sceptre etc etc He had knowledge on who they were, So who's to say that Neron will use Soul Manip right away in a random encounter?

Which leads me to my next point. Neron has a counter for everything the Kings can do individually and can stomp any of them 1v1 on account of he got bored from stomping heralds like MMH, Alan and Kyle (I can not stress how impressive that is).

  • Bambina - He's mostly a brick. Neron is fast enough to keep up with him, can phase through his physical attacks and has greater striking power than his durability can take after repeated hits.
  • Guinness - Also physical but has Guinnes Search, in which he can temporarily sniff his opponents soul out. The duration for which the soul is out of the body isn't enough for other 8K to take advantage of, and there's no proof they would try something like that anyway with no knowledge on Neron. Other than that, Neron can inflict pain on Guinness' own soul and kill him with the wave of his land like he did Diana, or give him the smack-down he gave Bambina.
  • Deer King - Back channel is useless and only stalls someone with immortality. After a while it does drain their energy like it did to NEO, but Neron can wave his hand and kill Sky Deer with a soul attack like he did Wonder Woman and Guinness.
  • Moon - Has the highest capture level but is the least impressive in combat. Neron can travel dimensions and teleport so getting sucked into his belly is easily countered, and he doesn't have any durability feats to tank his hits either.
  • Mother Snake - Uses her FTL speed to swallow opponents, and can dissolve them with her juices. Neron can teleport out of her stomach though and kill her any of the ways he killed the previous Kings.
  • Crow King - The Shadow attack would be a problem but boy does teleportation come in handy. Even if the scenario doesn't play out like I said and CK manages to get him, destruction of his physical body doesn't stop Neron. CK can also just get blitzed and killed.
  • Derous - Also really unimpressive. His laser is the only attack he has going for him. It can be phased through.
  • Heracles - Neron can breath in space so his vacuum attack won't work. His stomp isn't planetary and his breath can be phased through.

Not too much to Counter here as In a 1v1 Scenario Neron can Beat the Kings(Bar Guinness), But Thats not happening. The Eight kings Use Teamwork, They just dont fire their Hax together. Ive Shown multiple Scans of Guinness stalling Acacia for Derious, or Sky Deer helping Derious, Or Bambina hitting Acacia towards Moon, Or Snake king charging into Moon etc.

Though to Counter Some of what You Wrote Above(Not that its necessary as i countered Most of it during my post)

Guinness: Neron has NO FEATS Of resisting Soul rip, comparing him to Acacia is fallacious to say the least, Plus Soul ripping Acacia gave them the opening they needed in order to fire One massive combined bast of Anger.

Plus the 'Eight kings wont attack Neron because they dont know who he is' argument doesnt Help you, Because once reversed this Logic effects Neron:

There's no Proof He'll use Soul Manipulation on an Opponent he doesn't Know.

You See how Silly it is?

Crow King : isn't getting blitzed to say the least, the Shadow will Blot out all though so Neron can't Teleport, and The Shadow Lobotomises Neron, turning into a spirit doesn't Help

Conclusion/Strategy.

I Already made a 'Reasons why' Conclusion Last Post, so i wont bother to in this One and ill just Touch on why Neron Looses.

As its Become apparent at this Point, the Eight kings do in fact Work together using Teamwork. Think of the Eight kings Like a Basketball team perhaps, With Neron as the Ball. No, They don't all Dribble/Shoot the Pall at Once, But they do pass to Each other Several Times depending On Who's Open; They dont use their Hax all at Once, but they Use them With Teamwork.

This becomes apparent due to the Sheer number of Scans that back this up, Like Bambina and Moon, Guinness and Derious, Snake King and Moon/Derious, Sky Deer and Derious Working together.

With that Said lets look at the Strategies:

A: Guinness is going to Pull out Nerons Soul. Neron Has no Soul resistance feats so He will be K.O'd(Please dont compare him to Acacia, even though Soul Rip helped Stall Acacia anyway) Allowing for Guinness to Throw Neron into the Sky for Crow Shadow to Lobotomise Him. Neron has No Counter for this as he will be K.O'd and cannot go Intangible.

Result: Neron incapacitated ; Kings Remaining 8/8

______________________________________________________________________________________

B: Guinness Pulls Out Nerons Soul, and they Fire a combined Blast at him. He has No Soul resistance feats So he gets K.O'd, and he has no Multi-Planery/Large Planet energy Feats so he gets Killed

Result: Neron Dies ; Kings Remaining 8/8

______________________________________________________________________________________

C:Guinness Rips out his Nerons Soul, And Guinness then proceeds to Oneshot Neron with his Multi-Planet striking. Neron will be K.O'd so he cant go intangible.

Result: Neron Dies, King Remaining 8/8

______________________________________________________________________________________

D: Bambina charges to fight at Neron, and Unfortunately Dies Due to Neron being able to Phase, But while Nerons distracted Crow King uses his Shadow to strip away Nerons thoughts and Lobotomise him; Which is an instant ability as i proved earlier:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

You May try to use the Argument; 'CK Wont use his shadow at the risk of the Other Kings', Which is blatently false because in the Scans i mentioned above, Bambina was still in range of being Injured by the Shadow(Though it seems he managed to get away) Though the Crow king couldn't Care less and still used the ability.

Result: Neron incapacitated, Kings Remaining 7/8

______________________________________________________________________________________

E: Guinness Soul Rips Neron, Leaving him K.O'd and because of that he cant go intagible/Teleport. Snake king then decides to Eat him and melt away Neron, Leaving Him Dead.

Result: Neron Dead, Kings remaining 8/8

______________________________________________________________________________________

Neron is a might foe indeed, But the Eight kings will manage to take him out. You managed to debate him Well; Backing up Most of spectre and Kyle's Scaling, But ultimately the Hax of the 8 Kings are too much for Him to handle; Mainly soul rip, Emperor Shadow and Nerons Lack of Multi-Planet durability feats.

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@vsw: It will take me some time. But I'll vote on this probably in a week.

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@higherpower@vsw Let me start of by saying that this was a very nice debate and an informative read. I had fun learning about two groups of characters I knew nothing about, which also helped me to be as objective as possible due to my lack of prior knowledge. With that said, let's go into the debate:

Right off the bat, I know the thing everyone cares about the most is who I voted for, so I am going to disclose that information before I go into my reasoning. Overall, @vsw gets my vote in a very very close debate.

Now, after reading this debate a few times, it seems like the main points that were contested were Neron's and Guiness' soul manipulation, the validity of Spectre's multi planetary physicals, and the Neron's intangibility, and how well the 8 kings would work as a unit (feel free to correct me, but in my opinion, these points were most relevant to the fight). Initially, I was with @higherpower in this debate and very well would have voted for him given his arguments. I felt that the AoE shockwaves being argued as a counter to intangibility was a bit weak and that the 8 Kings truly had no counter to Neron's soul manipulation and Neron's experience of casually teambusting equally versatile and physically capable fighters. That was, until Vsw brought up two arguments: Neron has never used his soul manipulation against multiple people SIMULTANEOUSLY and soul manipulation is really his only viable way of taking out the 8 Kings. The first argument speaks for itself since no feats were presented by HP as he pretty much ignored the argument, though to be fair Vsw didn't address this fact in his final post. The second argument, however, warrants elaboration because HP did provide good striking strength feats for Neron, though the thing is that I find it a bit of a stretch to believe that Neron can choose to be intangible with such speed and precision that he can tag at least one of the 8 Kings without being tagged by the rest of the 7 8 Kings. Thus physical attacks were immediately thrown out the window, leaving just soul rip, which didn't seem like a viable option to me because he would have to focus on one King at a time in order to rip their soul. This would allow Guiness and Emperor Crow the perfect time to strike. Now Crow King I am shaky on just because of Neron's intangibility and the fact that the only counter made to HP's argument of Crow's shadow attack causing friendly fire for the other 8 Kings was that Crow King can aim his shadow upwards, which wasn't very convincing to say the least. However, at the same token, there were no arguments made against Soul Rip other than the possible implication that Neron's status and portrayal in DC Comics would prove this strategy moot, which is just simply unconvincing. Other than that indirect argument, HP really had no answer to it. So Guiness' temporary soul rip would make Neron tangible, which would allow the 8 Kings an opening to take out Neron once and for all.

Like I said, good debate to both of you, but if I had to deem a winner, Vsw edges it out for me. Though it is worth noting that in terms of technical debating, HP does have the win because of Vsw's many concessions, but in terms of who convinced me, Vsw is the victor.

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#45  Edited By vsw

@gearsecond659: thank you for the vote and analysis, I can defiantly see where there's room to improve though.

Bump for the attention of more voters

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BUmp for more voters

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@gearsecond659 said:

@higherpower@vsw Let me start of by saying that this was a very nice debate and an informative read. I had fun learning about two groups of characters I knew nothing about, which also helped me to be as objective as possible due to my lack of prior knowledge. With that said, let's go into the debate:

Right off the bat, I know the thing everyone cares about the most is who I voted for, so I am going to disclose that information before I go into my reasoning. Overall, @vsw gets my vote in a very very close debate.

Now, after reading this debate a few times, it seems like the main points that were contested were Neron's and Guiness' soul manipulation, the validity of Spectre's multi planetary physicals, and the Neron's intangibility, and how well the 8 kings would work as a unit (feel free to correct me, but in my opinion, these points were most relevant to the fight). Initially, I was with @higherpower in this debate and very well would have voted for him given his arguments. I felt that the AoE shockwaves being argued as a counter to intangibility was a bit weak and that the 8 Kings truly had no counter to Neron's soul manipulation and Neron's experience of casually teambusting equally versatile and physically capable fighters. That was, until Vsw brought up two arguments: Neron has never used his soul manipulation against multiple people SIMULTANEOUSLY and soul manipulation is really his only viable way of taking out the 8 Kings. The first argument speaks for itself since no feats were presented by HP as he pretty much ignored the argument, though to be fair Vsw didn't address this fact in his final post. The second argument, however, warrants elaboration because HP did provide good striking strength feats for Neron, though the thing is that I find it a bit of a stretch to believe that Neron can choose to be intangible with such speed and precision that he can tag at least one of the 8 Kings without being tagged by the rest of the 7 8 Kings. Thus physical attacks were immediately thrown out the window, leaving just soul rip, which didn't seem like a viable option to me because he would have to focus on one King at a time in order to rip their soul. This would allow Guiness and Emperor Crow the perfect time to strike. Now Crow King I am shaky on just because of Neron's intangibility and the fact that the only counter made to HP's argument of Crow's shadow attack causing friendly fire for the other 8 Kings was that Crow King can aim his shadow upwards, which wasn't very convincing to say the least. However, at the same token, there were no arguments made against Soul Rip other than the possible implication that Neron's status and portrayal in DC Comics would prove this strategy moot, which is just simply unconvincing. Other than that indirect argument, HP really had no answer to it. So Guiness' temporary soul rip would make Neron tangible, which would allow the 8 Kings an opening to take out Neron once and for all.

Like I said, good debate to both of you, but if I had to deem a winner, Vsw edges it out for me. Though it is worth noting that in terms of technical debating, HP does have the win because of Vsw's many concessions, but in terms of who convinced me, Vsw is the victor.

basically this, my overall vote goes to VSW altho in terms of technicality, HP edges it out

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I'll try to vote.