Kafka Hibino is a middle age man who dreams of joining the Defense Force was crushed, and worked as Kaiju disposal for years until a fate encounter gave him power of a uber Kaiju that implanted itself in his body, transforming him as Kaiju Human Hybrid that is one of the strongest Kaiju in the series.
Strength
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A single punch explodes a large Kaiju into bloody mist.
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One of Kafka serious punches explodes another large Kaiju into bloody bits.
Speed
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Kaiju No.9 projectiles are super sonic to hyper sonic in speeds, and Kafka waits till they are close in range before reacting and shouting them down.
Kafka punches down Kaiju No.9 barrage of super sonic to hypersonic projectiles.
Durability
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Kafka easily slaps away city block busting attacks with no issues.
Skill
Should be noted as well Kafka has some serious training in hand to hand and military tactics
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Kafka is shown to have months of training with the Defense Force. Learning military tactics, basic hand to hand, markmenship, and more.
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Kafka skill was enough to combat Hoshina martial arts sword prowess. Even tricking and catching Hoshina killing strike with his shape shifting ability. Later after the battle, Kafka was able to study and understand Hoshina moves during a training setting.
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Hoshina is also a master of the Defense Forces martial art called Troop Style Hand to Hand Combat. Kafka was train hard by Hoshina in this fighting stye.
Kaiju No.9
Kaiju No.9 is a super powerful and smart Kaiju that is the main series antagonist as of now. It has multiple abilities and powers, as well several power ups in a effort to beat Kaiju No.8. Creator of many of the current mega kaiju like Kaiju No.10 through No.15. Kaiju No.9 is deceptively cleaver, and after absorbing the power of Kaiju No.2, Kaiju No.9 has become much more powerful.
Strength
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No.9 after molting was strong enough to throw blows evenly with Kaiju No.2 empowered Chief Shinomiya.
As a comparison a single punch from Kafka and Chief Shinomiya heavily damages multiple layers of a deep underground military bunker.
Durability
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No.9 before molting, literally in his weakest form, takes multiple rapid fire blows from Kafka, and with effort survived Kafka serious punch.
Speed
No.9 in his weakest form was able to slap away auto gunfire from the Defense Force weapons of 20% Release force officers like Ichikawa. These rounds being supersonic casually.
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No.9 before molting was able to block point blank gun fire from a Fully Release Force Ichikawa. Then moves faster than the super sonic in speed Ichikawa could perceived. A step up form the last feat above. All again in his weakest form.
Skill
Kaiju No.9 is also a insane clever and super intelegent Kaiju, which made him more dangerous than all previous mega Kaiju before him.
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Kaiju No.9 is stated and shown to understand and counter perfectly the entire military strategy and tactics of the Japan Anti-Kaiju Defense Force. Outsmarting everyone and moving vast armies like pieces on a chest board. Kaiju No.9 has outsmarted the force several times actually, even when defeated the Kaiju accomplishes its goals. Its a master strategist in finding weaknesses to exploit in battle.
So far I showed the weaker end of stats, with better ones in my pocket for later. So with basic stats and stuff out of the way, lets dive more into the actual forthcoming arguments.
Initial Thoughts
I am feeling confident with stats out of the way for now to show how they should match up to the Dragon types, but lets delve into the more hax and specific powers of my guys. Both these mega Kaiju compliment the other perfectly. Kaiju No.8 is the power house, physically dominating to anyone in this fight. Kaiju No.9 is the most hax and brilliant strategist to use it effectively as support. So what I see happening is No.9 (Im just going to use their numbers at this point instead typing Kaiju every sentence lol) going straight for the range attack.
Range
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No.9 can generate dozen limbs to rapid fire dozen projectiles.
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No.9 shows a single projectile now casual city block busting. He will be unleashing so much range fire power of hypersonic projectiles. Add to this issue is No.9 ability to summon other kaiju from underground to fight for him.
Monster Creation and Control
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No. 9 is stated able to create other Kaiju, including powerful ones like Kaiju No.10. Though to be fair I wont use Mega Kaiju who are unique and have their own minds, but I will gladly show No.9 summoning the Ant Kaiju he made army of use in this fight.
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No.9 created Ant Kaiju burrow from underground to surface, and are all Tank level in durability, as well building busters. There was several dozen of them at a time too. Spamming the battlefield with fodder and distractions attacking the Dragons from the side. All in a effort to put the pressure on as No.9 provides range support and No.8 closes in for the close combat, bouncing in and out via his limited jet propulsion flight.
Jet Propulsion
All this will be pretty effetive alone as a opening salvo to wear your dragon Pokemon down. In turn both No.9 and No.8 have insane durability and healing factors to keep in the fight. Each kaiju here has a "core" which is the heart to say, and this core as long it exist can allow a mega Kaiju to regen their whole body instantly damn near in a fight and keep going. You have to either wear the Kaiju down, or attack the core. Wearing them down can take alot of time and effort.
Regen
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No.9 regens majority of his destroyed body from a serious Kafka punch.
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No.9 regens the half of his body and head cut off in battle.
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No.8 able to instantly regrow limbs and body. Stated this burns up energy though.
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N0.8 twists and breaks his own spine to get a surprise attack during combat and heals right after. Seriously its going to be hell to kill these guys and now with multiple Kaiju fodder on the battlefield as well, its going to get harder. Real uphill scenario.
Let’s start off with Dragonite. National dex. no. 0149: 7’03”: 463 lbs: The Dragon Pokémon (how creative)
Intro
First off, Dragonite’s ability Multiscale. Multiscale reduces the amount of damage taken by Dragonite when his health is full by 20%.
Looking at offense and defense, Dragonite has very impressive showings and scaling. Ash’s Charizard, Korrina’s Lucario, and more. As for versatility, Dragonite certainly has that as well. Speed-wise he’s not as impressive in base, but that can be fixed pretty easily due to reasons I’ll go into later on.
As you’d expect, I’ll go over Dragonite’s AP, durability and speed in base, and also how he can utilize his versatility to tip the tide of the battle further into his favor.
Stats
I’ll keep the feats sections nice and short, but there’ll be enough to accurately gauge a power level that Dragonite can expand upon later
AP
Dragonite, with one Dragon Dance amp, effectively one shots Korrina’s Mega Lucario (it hadn’t taken damage until then besides Hurricane, which just created winds that blew small rocks in its direction).
I‘ll paste the durability section I’d made for Mega Lucario’s durability here:
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Lucario tanks this, which obviously scales far above the likes of Machamp’s regular attacks, and even no sells it. He then tanks this flurry of attacks from Gmax (though now regular size, still retaining the amp) Machamp, before obviously overpowering it and KOing it. Here’s Machamp’s AP scaling:
Machamp’s immense strength:
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Dragonite’s clash with Hydreigon creates a massive shockwave that resounds all the way throughout what seems to be multiple city block sized part of a forest and beyond.
Durability
Dragonite’s best durability feats comes from Mega Lucario as well. In a series of attacks from Mega Lucario, Dragonite is able to tank its Aura Sphere and immediately afterwards a barrage of Power-Up-Punches, which sends him flying a large distance swiftly. Scaling for Lucario has been given, already.
He then tanks Mega Lucario’s amped Power-up-Punch during the feat where he KO’s Lucario. This amped Power-Up-Punch scales above his normal attacks which have the scaling already given.
Speed
The Pokédex states the Dragonite is capable of flying at Supersonic speeds, unamped. Dragonite easily avoids multiple Hyper Beams moving extremely quickly, also unamped. It was clear just how big of an amp just one speed amp via Dragon Dance gives, so a full x6 amp would scale massively above these feats, that is, supersonic.
Abilities
Dragonite is certainly the more versatile of the two, while Garchomp is more the muscle, Dragonite is much more versatile.
Defensive
Protect
Dragonite puts up a barrier that protects from all incoming damage
Detect
Dragonite is able to detect and avoid the opponent before it hits
Reflect
Dragonite puts up a barrier that protects from all incoming damage
Light Screen
Dragonite puts up a barrier that protects from all incoming damage
Substitute
Dragonite sets up an unmoving clone that disappears after one hit in order to sneak on the opponent
Double Team
The user creates dozens of offensively capable clones
—Thunder Wave: Paralyzes the opponent, halving their speed and occasionally making them unable to move
—Toxic: Poisons the opponent. Once poisoned, deals 2x the damage it did last time through posion.
—Flamethrower: Deals massive damage with a chance to burn the opponent. Once burned, the opponent’s offense is halved
And plenty more.
Mimic
Copies whatever move the target he’s copying used last.
Bide
Tanks the opponent’s hits for three turns (three attacks) and then unleashes the combined damage of what damage he’s taken multiplied by 2
Supersonic
Confuses and staggers the opponent. During confusion, the opponent will find it tough to focus and will sometimes attack itself
Double Team
I added this in both sections because it can be used for both simultaneously. They are offensively capable, and can also keep the opponent from damaging the real one
Stat Manipulators
Tailwind
My team’s speed is doubled for the duration of the Tailwind
Leer
Lowers the opponents Attack
Dragon Dance
Increases the user’s Attack and Speed
Power-Up-Punch
Deals damage and increases Attack once it hits
Agility
The user moves so fastit appears to teleport. Not a stat manipulator, but I needed to include it somewhere
Elemental Moves
Like burns through Blast Burn which halves Attack, Paralysis through Thunder Wave which halves Speed, etc.
Garchomp
National Dex no. 0445: 6’03”: 209.4 lbs (according to the Pokédex): The Mach Pokémon
Intro:
Garchomp’s main ability isn’t very useful in this battle. He isn’t as versatile as others, but he is extremely powerful, fast and will likely dominate anyone else on the battlefield.
Stats
AP
The first bit of scaling comes from scaling pretty high above his own teammate. Let’s look at Dragonite’s fight against Milotic. He is defeated pretty easily. Then, Milotic comes up against Haxorus, and is defeated, even one shotted. Finally, Garchomp coming up against Haxorus (albeit in Mega form) beats Haxorus.
You could also just look at Garchomp’s battle vs Dragonite and see how easily he stomped all over Dragonite while Garchomp was in base. (The vid is sped up for whatever reason)
Against Mega Lucario, his (in base) move clashes evenly with Lucario’s Aura Sphere, scaling provided earlier.
Pretty consistent scaling, I’d say.
Durability
Trades blows with Haxorus (who scales above Dragonite who has scaling provided)
This doubles as both an AP and Durability feat, as he harms Lucario with his blows and also tanks dozens of blows from Lucario
Speed
Unamped, we see him move at blur speeds. The Pokédex also states these:
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All of which can be massively upscaled with Mega Evolution.
Abilities
Garchomp is not very versatile, though he has some toons that can be useful
Swords Dance
The user raises its Attack massively
Helping Hand
Amps the ally’s move by 50%
Double Team
Same thing as Dragonite. The user created dozens of offensively capable, though defensively fragile, clones
Scary Face
The user lowers the opponent’s speed
Toxic
Same as explained for Dragonite
Swagger
Raises the opponents Attack massively, but the opponent is also confused
Confide
Lowers the opponent’s Special Attack
Protect
The user protects itself from incoming damage
Facade
If the opponent is burned, Paralyzed or poisoned (all of which can be inflicted by either Garchomp or Dragonite), the move‘s power is doubled
Dragonite will set up Dragon Dance amps in the air, and Garchomp will do the same but with Swords Dance. Dragonite and Garchomp use Leer, Scary Face etc to lower your team’s stats, as well as Swagger which amps you, but now your team have no clue what they’re doing. They’re totally confused. My team both then use Double Team. You are now facing dozens of amped Garchomps and Dragonites, while your team is extremely weakened, and while the clones will go down in one hit, your team is confused and it will be tough to hit the clones (who are all extremely fast and in Dragonite’s case have Detect) and if you do it’s easy to simply set them back up. Your team will be overwhelmed and obliterated, even if wearing them down is extremely tough. Or, they can go close range with Thunder Punch, Dragon Rush, Dragon Claw etc. and go for the Core from all sides with their attacks. Dragonite can also Freeze your team in place, all the better for me. Or Paralyze them, but freezing is better.
Summary: My team is more powerful than yours, they can create dozens of clones each to attack your team, they can confuse your team, freeze your team, etc. and then obliterate them or take out the core.
I don’t think I need to touch on the Ant Army, as they’re supposedly building level and will probably be vaporized instantly.
Some counters here I like to compare or challenge.
AP
Dragonite, with one Dragon Dance amp, effectively one shots Korrina’s Mega Lucario (it hadn’t taken damage until then besides Hurricane, which just created winds that blew small rocks in its direction).
I‘ll paste the durability section I’d made for Mega Lucario’s durability here:
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Lucario tanks this, which obviously scales far above the likes of Machamp’s regular attacks, and even no sells it. He then tanks this flurry of attacks from Gmax (though now regular size, still retaining the amp) Machamp, before obviously overpowering it and KOing it. Here’s Machamp’s AP scaling:
Machamp’s immense strength:
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While Machamps has nice Pokemon entries, nothing in the video shows city block busting. The attack did not even extend past the football size stadium. This is very comparable to Kafka and No.9 abilities.
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In the Manga lore, making a weapon out of of a Mega Monster *Numbered Monster) with a Fortitude 9.0 or higher allows the user of that weapon/suit to gain the power, abilities, and strength of that Kaiju if they have high enough Release Force. The point is the Chief in the scans above has the power of a Kaiju No.2 and near perfect release force.
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As such this power grants Chief the casual city block wrecking 9.0 Fortitude Kaiju in power strength. A Kaiju whose mass and weight dwarfs medium size skyscrapers. Kafka in turn brushes Chiefs best blows off with some effort. As for No.9....
My previous post I already showed No.9 after molting was strong enough to throw blows evenly with Kaiju No.2 empowered Chief Shinomiya. Matching blow for blow evenly. No.9 Absorbs the Chief and Kaiju No. 2 power to transform into a more powerful current form. A form that is strong enough to one hand block the strongest Defense Force Commander, Gen Narumi, as well Kaiju No.8 attack at the same time. Slightly above Kafka at this point.
Dragonite’s clash with Hydreigon creates a massive shockwave that resounds all the way throughout what seems to be multiple city block sized part of a forest and beyond.
Against Mega Lucario, his (in base) move clashes evenly with Lucario’s Aura Sphere, scaling provided earlier.
Both feats here are decent, however in both cases this is something Kaiju No.8 does while simply powering up.
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Kafka just by powering up into Kaiju form unleashes energy that cracks and rips up the streets of a city block, blowing away all vehicles away in the process. Further more a massive shockwave is released across the city scape and physically felt by the other Kaiju. Thats not a attack, just his transformation and power released as a side effect.
Durability
Dragonite’s best durability feats comes from Mega Lucario as well. In a series of attacks from Mega Lucario, Dragonite is able to tank its Aura Sphere and immediately afterwards a barrage of Power-Up-Punches, which sends him flying a large distance swiftly. Scaling for Lucario has been given, already.
He then tanks Mega Lucario’s amped Power-up-Punch during the feat where he KO’s Lucario. This amped Power-Up-Punch scales above his normal attacks which have the scaling already given.
Durability
Trades blows with Haxorus (who scales above Dragonite who has scaling provided)
This doubles as both an AP and Durability feat, as he harms Lucario with his blows and also tanks dozens of blows from Lucario
Kafka and No.9 as of now to me seem to have better damage output and durability thanks to regen on top of their durability toughness. I already touch on Regen so will leave that alone. They can have their brains cut in half, head exploded, or entire body taken out and suffer only slightly. As long their "Core" is intact they can regen for a time period.
Speed
The Pokédex states the Dragonite is capable of flying at Supersonic speeds, unamped. Dragonite easily avoids multiple Hyper Beams moving extremely quickly, also unamped. It was clear just how big of an amp just one speed amp via Dragon Dance gives, so a full x6 amp would scale massively above these feats, that is, supersonic.
Speed
Unamped, we see him move at blur speeds. The Pokédex also states these:
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All of which can be massively upscaled with Mega Evolution.
How much massively? Feats and calcs be appreciated. As for continue speed feats I establish how fast Kafka is and No.9 is on same speed level. Let me breakdown again how things work speed wise in lore to what I am about to show.
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Hoshina is able to reach 92% Release Force with a Self Defense Suit, and in turn shows insane agility and speed when blitzing as multiple after images Kaiju No.10, a already very super sonic being. Thats what high Release Force can do with Defense Suits, but this is still very limited to Mega Kaiju Suit/Weapons used by these characters.
Now as stated wearing a Numbers weapon, a Mega Kaiju made weapon or suit, allows a person to increase their speed and reaction well past what a normal Defense Force Suit can.
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So with all that said, we have here No.9 after molting was matching Kaiju No.2 empowered Chief Shinomiya blow for blow, and even overwhelm him. Chief at this point with his near perfect Release Force and bringing out the near perfect stats of his Mega Kaiju abilities and stats matching a weaker version of No.9 before absorbing Chief and No.2 gauntlets for a major boost. Same for Kafka who is able to match Chief and No.9.
Truth be told in the end I dont think Speed arguments will matter much at all. Your characters at best make sonic booms, and occasionally after images. Mine do as well. Your characters can scale to lightning timers at best.
Stated lightning fast as well. So by logic scale to anything Pokemon wise even by outliers or statements. I just dont see a reason to argue speed really, when both characters are hypersonic easy and create after images or what not.
The Battle
Dragonite will set up Dragon Dance amps in the air, and Garchomp will do the same but with Swords Dance. Dragonite and Garchomp use Leer, Scary Face etc to lower your team’s stats, as well as Swagger which amps you, but now your team have no clue what they’re doing.
Im not sure why Swagger or Scary face will do anything to my team. One they are not Pokemon or Human. Have Swagger and Scary Face or Leer work on humans and lower or raise their human stats? Indeed to see these abilities working on non Pokemon that all share genetic stats and powers coming from the same God of Pokemon too.
They’re totally confused. My team both then use Double Team. You are now facing dozens of amped Garchomps and Dragonites, while your team is extremely weakened, and while the clones will go down in one hit, your team is confused and it will be tough to hit the clones (who are all extremely fast and in Dragonite’s case have Detect) and if you do it’s easy to simply set them back up.
By moving rapidly, the user makes illusory copies of itself to boost its evasiveness.
According to Pokedex for several games this is a illusion ability created via super speed. Speed we establish my characters can do anyway when they make after images of themselves. So really doubt this will work. Howvwer my team can make actual clones of themsevles. No.9 done this as he can create two weaker copies.
No.9 Cloning
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No.9 after molting was shown the power to create up to two clones of same pre molt power level. Each one able to share the thoughts and senses of the other. Now No.9 is leagues stronger with the merger and absorbvtion of Kaiju No,2 to his own power. Thus making two weaker Molted level copies should be easy.
Add to this Kaiju 9 can summon a army of decetly powerful Kaiju of various types. Ant Kaiju in this case.
Kaiju Control
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No. 9 is stated able to create other Kaiju, including powerful ones like Kaiju No.10.
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No.9 controls the Ant Kaiju army he made to attack the surface world, across a city. In this scenario I will be using Ant Kaiju army as anything more be flat out unfair. So in reality your team is very much outnumbers and I dont see why Double Team will work as you intend it too.
Your team will be overwhelmed and obliterated, even if wearing them down is extremely tough. Or, they can go close range with Thunder Punch, Dragon Rush, Dragon Claw etc. and go for the Core from all sides with their attacks. Dragonite can also Freeze your team in place, all the better for me. Or Paralyze them, but freezing is better.
Kaiju face freezing attacks all the time. Example this mere 6.7 Kaiju shrug off massive Freeze Attacks from the No.6 Wearing Leno Ichikawa.
Leno is able to flash freeze a 50 meter radius with ice shards reaching dozen meters in the sky. Barely affects the Kaiju.
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Leno with Kaiju No.6 suit freeze rounds are so powerful to damage a high level Kaiju, and cover a large massive area.
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Leno with a charge shot shows multiple sound barriers broken from the speed of the round, and blows a large hole through the 100 meter Kaiju mid section, freezing its insides blasted out on the other side. As seen some insane freeze attacks had little affect on a Kaiju that is roughly 20-30 times weaker than Kafka and No.9 who are 9.8 and higher levels.
Summary: My team is more powerful than yours, they can create dozens of clones each to attack your team, they can confuse your team, freeze your team, etc. and then obliterate them or take out the core.
I don’t think I need to touch on the Ant Army, as they’re supposedly building level and will probably be vaporized instantly.
Yeah building level is right, but they are numerous, distractions, and not too far below what I seen by the Pokemon really. They also add in extra mass and resources for Kaiju No.9.
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No. 9 shows the ability to manipulate and move the dead bodies of Kaiju to use as barriers, walls to take cover behind, or to heal himself and others. Then add in the No. 9 Clones, all unleashing hell in range attacks.
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Post Molt level No.9 with single projectile is casual city block busting. Now we have 2 clones of this level firing projectiles rapidly off. Along with a post No.2 merger form firing these bad boys.
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No.9 after merging with No.2 creates a multiple city block in scope busting fireball with his attacks.
Conclusions
So far I feel both Kafka and No.9 are superior in stats by feats. With better skill level for fighting. No. 9 has massive range advantage, and legit clones of near power. As well the Ant army for distraction and resources. Kafka will provide the close combat brutality and likely take out either Pokemon in hand to hand.
While Machamps has nice Pokemon entries, nothing in the video shows city block busting. The attack did not even extend past the football size stadium. This is very comparable to Kafka and No.9 abilities.
The AP is what matters, not the DC. The AP of Machamp’s best attacks in base are in the megaton range, and in G-Max would be far higher. Lucario more or less no sold that, and Dragonite one shot him.
I’ll also add that a single hyper beam from base Garchomp that was hurt, restrained and fighting back against a device making it go insane casuallybustsa city block. Now think of Garchomp fully amped, not holding back or hurt, mega evolved, and numbering in the dozens.
Kafka just by powering up into Kaiju form unleashes energy that cracks and rips up the streets of a city block, blowing away all vehicles away in the process. Further more a massive shockwave is released across the city scape and physically felt by the other Kaiju. Thats not a attack, just his transformation and power released as a side effect.
Sure, but the Pokémon have similar. The act of Gmaxing and Mega evolving cause large shockwaves across the entire stadium, which is massive
Those yellow cube looking things are pretty decent sized buildings, to give you a rough scale.
The same Mega Lucario which Dragonite not only matched but also one shotted.
Kafka and No.9 as of now to me seem to have better damage output and durability thanks to regen on top of their durability toughness. I already touch on Regen so will leave that alone. They can have their brains cut in half, head exploded, or entire body taken out and suffer only slightly. As long their "Core" is intact they can regen for a time period.
How long can they regen? Anyway, the Pokémon have lethal physical attacks as well, Thunder Punch, Dragon Rush, Dragon ClawDragon Clawagain, etc. in any case, so it’s not that much of a hinderance.
How much massively? Feats and calcs be appreciated
Setting aside the likelihood that it just doubles as with power like Clement states, in this battle versus a normal Lucario, Pikachu keeps up with and at times manages to blitz Lucario. Mega Lucario? Moves FTE to Pikachu (1,2,3). Not exactly quantifiable, but it’s clearly a massive boost.
Truth be told in the end I dont think Speed arguments will matter much at all. Your characters at best make sonic booms, and occasionally after images. Mine do as well. Your characters can scale to lightning timers at best.
Stated lightning fast as well. So by logic scale to anything Pokemon wise even by outliers or statements. I just dont see a reason to argue speed really, when both characters are hypersonic easy and create after images or what not.
First off, the statement “she’s lightning fast,” is used countless times as hyperbole to illustrate the fact that a character is extremely fast. I’m all for taking statements into account, but in this case it’s quite ambiguous. Whereas the statements on the Pokémon side are quite clear cut.
Second, even if we take this statement at face-value and we’d like to argue them as equal, the main point of my opener was to demonstrate the stat manipulators on my side and how easily they can surpass this equivalence with Dragon Dance, Mega Evolution etc.
Im not sure why Swagger or Scary face will do anything to my team. One they are not Pokemon or Human. Have Swagger and Scary Face or Leer work on humans and lower or raise their human stats?
There is no example of such seeing as humans don‘t battle with Pokémon, nor do they pose any threat. However, effects like Confuse Rayhave worked on humans.
According to Pokedex for several games this is a illusion ability created via super speed. Speed we establish my characters can do anyway when they make after images of themselves. So really doubt this will work. Howvwer my team can make actual clones of themsevles. No.9 done this as he can create two weaker copies.
The Pokédex, while a great resource, comes second to what happens on screen. In this clip, a single Greninja can’t break through Gardevoir‘s Reflect, however after using Double Team, Greninja and the clones easily destroy the barrier. In thisclip, it’s clear that the many clones of Froakie create large columns of water after coming out of the water before attempting to attack Hawlucha.
Clones
Regarding your team’s clones, there are 2 major differences between your team’s clones and mine’s.
1. First and foremost, no.9 can only create two clones, while my team can create up to a dozen per Pokémon that they can continually set up. While the numbers for your ant army seem to be high, in the end they are complete fodder compared to anybody else on the battlefield
2. Your two clones, in addition to being vastly outnumbered, are also apparently weaker than the original. My clones are all of the same power level.
No.9 controls the Ant Kaiju army he made to attack the surface world, across a city. In this scenario I will be using Ant Kaiju army as anything more be flat out unfair. So in reality your team is very much outnumbers and I dont see why Double Team will work as you intend it too.
I’ve addressed these points already. Double Team does indeed work as I stated, your team, while maybe not outnumbered, are completely overwhelmed in terms of power, considering your advantage in numbers is due to the ant army which is fodder.
Freezing
Freezing your team may not work, but considering there haven’t been counterpoints for Confusion or Paralysis I’ll assume they’ll work just fine. Paralysis will make it so that your speed will be reduced drastically along with a chance of not being able to move at all, while Confusion makes it so that your team will be dazed, unable to attack my team coherently, and will likely make your own team attack their teammates.
Ant guys
Yeah building level is right, but they are numerous, distractions, and not too far below what I seen by the Pokemon really.
Building level is far, far below the Pokémon. Hell, even Pikachu can do this
Conclusion
There are quite a few takeaways from this post.
Dragonite and Garchomp are going to have dozens of clones fighting with them that they can effectively constantly set up. Comparing this to your two (weaker) clones, it isn’t a comparison. If my team’s clones fall, it’s extremely easy to simply set them back up instantly.
Even if you want to argue that our teams are equal or similar in offense or speed, the use of Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Mega Evolution etc. allows my team to easily transcend said comparability.
Your team seemingly has no answer to Confuse Ray/Paralysis, which will just further the speed gap while also leaving your team disoriented and incoherent.
The AP is what matters, not the DC. The AP of Machamp’s best attacks in base are in the megaton range, and in G-Max would be far higher. Lucario more or less no sold that, and Dragonite one shot him.
I’ll also add that a single hyper beam from base Garchomp that was hurt, restrained and fighting back against a device making it go insane casuallybustsa city block. Now think of Garchomp fully amped, not holding back or hurt, mega evolved, and numbering in the dozens.
AP is base on "statement" and not feat. AP is hard to measure unless said AP is used on a being with high DC resistance, but I will gladly drop the actual proof of feats, and refer to statements. I we wish to say Machamp can toss undefine size mountains and has AP of megatons, then I can easily say the same for Kaiju 8 and Kaiju 9.
Kaiju are rated on a "Resilience/Fortitude" (Translations differ on which term tbh, though Fortitude seems correct translation) scale. This scale is totally different from Self Defense forces "Release Force" scale. In Kaiju the possible damage the Kaiju represent is measure same way as Earthquakes on Richter scale. Kaiju being natural disasters. Now Kaiju No.8 is measured as a 9.8 and now current Kaiju No.9 same level. But dont take my word for it. These Richter scale is proven in manga with on panel feats unlike the Pokemon.
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Kafka as shown clearly here destroying a city block from the force of his jumping into the sky, and punches a literal mountain size Kaiju blob into the low orbit of the planet to explode. Kafka also train and gotten stronger since this feat too. So unlike Machamp scaling base on just "statements" and saying his attacks is all AP, Kaiju No.8 manga has statements and feats to back the power of a creature with the destructive power of a 9.8 Richter Scale Earthquake. Just for reference a 7.8 Earthquake is measured as 500 Megatons of TNT.
If we want to go with statements over feats.
Sure, but the Pokémon have similar. The act of Gmaxing and Mega evolving cause large shockwaves across the entire stadium, which is massive
Those yellow cube looking things are pretty decent sized buildings, to give you a rough scale.
The same Mega Lucario which Dragonite not only matched but also one shotted.
What damage was actually done to the stadium though? Kafka transformation wrecked earthquake and typhoon durable building across a city block. What damage was done to the stadium?
How long can they regen?
They can consistently regrow their entire bodies a couple (2-3) times before being tax from feats. So minor damage like missing limbs, even missing heads, or other major organs should be regrown dozen of times over in a battle before taking serious effect.
While they may have lethal moves, all of Kaiju moves are lethal.
First off, the statement “she’s lightning fast,” is used countless times as hyperbole to illustrate the fact that a character is extremely fast. I’m all for taking statements into account, but in this case it’s quite ambiguous. Whereas the statements on the Pokémon side are quite clear cut.
Not really. Pokemon debunk their own speed feats every time a TRAINER of average HUMAN SPEED FEATS is able to see and give verbal orders to their LIGHTNING FAST Pokemon in mid attacks and battles. This alone debunk 99% of Speed feats for Pokemon. So you want to say mine is hyperbole, I can lowball with this debunk thats even more clear cut. In my Manga my characters legit have issues perceiving or seeing high level characters move with more clear speed feats with time and distance measurements in travel and combat speed.
So again either we accept they are on the same level, or lowball and debunk who has the lesser speed, where Pokemon come out rather poorly in this case. So lets not go there and just agree similar speeds, Im helping you in this way.
Second, even if we take this statement at face-value and we’d like to argue them as equal, the main point of my opener was to demonstrate the stat manipulators on my side and how easily they can surpass this equivalence with Dragon Dance, Mega Evolution etc.
I think stat multipliers will just allow them to match in speeds. As the feats again dont support them being faster by any measure.
There is no example of such seeing as humans don‘t battle with Pokémon, nor do they pose any threat. However, effects like Confuse Rayhave worked on humans.
So then we cant say Scary face or Leer will work on Kaiju here. Confuse Ray is a telepathic attack so thats fine.
The Pokédex, while a great resource, comes second to what happens on screen. In this clip, a single Greninja can’t break through Gardevoir‘s Reflect, however after using Double Team, Greninja and the clones easily destroy the barrier. In thisclip, it’s clear that the many clones of Froakie create large columns of water after coming out of the water before attempting to attack Hawlucha.
Hold up, you want to say Pokedex is bullshit to whats on screen, but you are gladly using the Pokedex for Machamp throwing mountains even though on screen has no such feats? C'mon my man. Either you sue Pokedex claims or not. Cant have your cake and eat it too.
Clones
Regarding your team’s clones, there are 2 major differences between your team’s clones and mine’s.
1. First and foremost, no.9 can only create two clones, while my team can create up to a dozen per Pokémon that they can continually set up. While the numbers for your ant army seem to be high, in the end they are complete fodder compared to anybody else on the battlefield
Your clones are so weak to die in one hit. My clones are legit and physicals with 9.0 power levels. Also the ants are still distractive building buster fodder to take hits and Kaiju No.9 uses these lesser Kaiju as meat shields too in battle.
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No. 9 in battle manipulates and moves the dead bodies of Kaiju to use as barriers or walls to take cover behind. Its all going to benefit Kaiju 9 and hinder your teams abilities.
2. Your two clones, in addition to being vastly outnumbered, are also apparently weaker than the original. My clones are all of the same power level.
Yet they die to one hit. How are they equal in power?
"and while the clones will go down in one hit, your team is confused and it will be tough to hit the clones" - Mr_Yes
Their not physical really if they go down to a slight punch. In fact Kaiju No.8 has a perfect counter to this.
Roar
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Kaiju No. 9 projectiles are insane powerful thanks to their speed and momentum. So powerful to even damage Kafka body physically even though Kafka can slap away city block busting attacks. These are city block busting projectiles. Yet, Kafka is able to Roar down the powerful projectiles with massive AOE roar attack
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Chief Shinomiya uses Kaiju No.2 powerful beam attack on Kafka. A beam that does this in damage and power.
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This beam is so powerful to take down a super skyscraper and blast wave across the city. Yet again, Kafka counters by Roaring it down. So why is these suppose "clones" that go down with even slight attacks not be canceled instantly by Kafka large AOE roar? How about Kaiju No.9 AOE energy blast.
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No.9 after merging with No.2 creates massive city block busting fireballs with his attacks. Something that was a casual attack. The weaker No.9 clones also have AOE attacks.
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No.9 clones alone is able to root their limbs through a city block worth of buildings and structures, and launch their projectiles at all angles for maximum fire coverage. The combine firepower destroys a city block with easy.
So to recap, your weak as hell clones will have to deal with massive amount of anti air projectile fire power, No. 9 massive AOE Effacts, and Kafka's own AOE roars. They are essentially non factors.
I’ve addressed these points already. Double Team does indeed work as I stated, your team, while maybe not outnumbered, are completely overwhelmed in terms of power, considering your advantage in numbers is due to the ant army which is fodder.
Not at all as proven. Thats of we again ignore the pokedex in this case.
Confusion Counters
Freezing your team may not work, but considering there haven’t been counterpoints for Confusion or Paralysis I’ll assume they’ll work just fine. Paralysis will make it so that your speed will be reduced drastically along with a chance of not being able to move at all, while Confusion makes it so that your team will be dazed, unable to attack my team coherently, and will likely make your own team attack their teammates.
Some food for thought. Mental attacks are a thing in Kaiju No.8 manga. First off Kaiju No.9 mental abilities. Kaiju No.9 has absorb them minds and memories of hundreds of humans.
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Did this for years to learn all he can to beat humans and become the most genius Kaiju in the series.
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No.9 also absorbs Chief Shinomiya Your asking so what? Well...
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As seen No.9 dominates and breaks down the consciousness of the person they absorb, and overpowers even the strongest will powered humans, ones who can will power wise dominate Mega Kaiju weapons, with ease. Add to all this proof...
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Finally we have this feat. Kaiju No. ( mentally was controlling and ordering 100s of Kaiju at a time, including five 9.0 Mega kaiju (No.11-No.15) like chess pieces on the board. Able to mentally reach out across all of Japan at the same time through the senses of the other Kaiju and guide them during across the Japan country, in battles taking place in several cities, at the same time.
We also have this little gem of a feat.
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Kaiju No.15 is shown to able to telepathically invade your mind and distract you with painful memories. No.15 even mentally enslave 100s to her ability across a portion of a city. Kikoru here is wearing the No.4 kaiju suit, amping her to Mega Kaiju levels and altering her brain functions to be more in line with the Mega Kaiju the suit is made from. While initially caught off guard by this newly encountered ability, was able to break free of it.
My conclusions here is Confuse Ray is a very limited mental attacks. One that has to hit the foe to begin with, and can be dodge. Even if it hits, it never mentally confuse Mega Kaiju like Kaiju No.9 or Kaiju No.8, the two strongest ones, who have insane mental fortitude or will power to mental control and attacks.
Paralysis Counters
This is even easier to argue. No Pokemon thats been paralyze has the healing factor my characters have. mega Kaiju have super healing and can reform from even have their brains and nervous system destroyed. What is Paralysis that doesnt even have 100% effectiveness at all will do? It might be inconvenient at first few seconds, then shrugged off.
Ant Kaiju
Building level is far, far below the Pokémon. Hell, even Pikachu can do this
You know what else is weak in real life? Real life ants. Real life ants are tiny, and weak as shit.
Look at these weak ass bitches. They are fodder in a fight. FODDER! Except we know in real life that something as weak as a ant can do this.
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Wait what the hell is this? How does REAl LIFE show how effective ants in the hundreds can affect someone that can crush them with a finger flick!? What is this? Oh yes, thats right, this is the proof how even building busters will be a pain in the ass for your characters, and unlike these tiny ants, they have mass and size on your Pokemon. They can easy one shot and negate your "clones" you are relying on so much, and provide meat shields to Kaiju No.9 as iI showed. As well just being a nuisance and distraction. A major factor.
Final Thoughts
Most of the abilities of the Pokemon can be called into question how they work, or how well they will hinder my team, or how much would boost yours. A lot of questions, not enough feats and numbers to work with.
Freezing wont work, Paralysis is very questionable, and telepathic wise Mega Kaiju shown better resistance and ability in it.
The Clones is pretty much non factor. Due to dying with a single weak attack. A sneeze their way. My team has city block busting AOE options, with two 9.0 No.9 clones, a 9.8 No.9, and 9.8 No.8 as well hundreds of Ant Kaiju being meat shields and building busting power. Its just not valid.
Speed wise is similar enough. No point to go on their.
Strength vs Strength wise my characters are rated on Richter Scale for damage ability, and prove this in actual feats with Kafka's best attack as shown.
My teams raw durability and regen is going to be a huge boon staying in the fight longer.
My team still holds a teamwork advantage, as the No.9 Clones, and No.9 himself, including the ant kaiju are all working in perfect sync, with Kafka able to work with No.9 easy from all their past battles, knowing No.9 inside and out and vice versa.
My team has as skill advantage, they have actual military training, martial arts training, and combat experience of various kinds.
My team should win in the end, it be a good fight, but ultimately my team should come out on top.
I will open my conclusion by addressing fortitude. As far as my research goes, Fortitude similarities to the Richter scale end at one level of the scale (for example, 8) being 1000 times weaker than the next level (for example, 9). Even this is relatively unsupported really, moreso just a theory. There is really nothing to say that the potency of an earthquake can be scaled to the Kaiju because of this scale based on my few hours of research, and your scans don’t necessitate the fact that they scale to earthquake magnitude.
punches a literal mountain size Kaiju blob into the low orbit of the planet to explode.
Come on man, we can both see that the thing is not even close to mountain sized. From the looks of it, a few of the building in the back would equal it in size. It doesn’t even dwarf the city it’s hovering over.
Kafka also train and gotten stronger since this feat too.
You could say that about many characters after performing certain feats. What‘s important is just how much, and you haven’t quantified this supposed increase in power.
Gotta Give ’em Feats!
As far as feats go, Garchomp and Dragonite still come out on top imo.
A slightly more dubious feat, a clash between Mega Abomasnow and Mega Gyarados causes an absolutely massive explosion, I’d say around city level. Garchomp did handle two Abomasnows at once, but Garchomp was an Alpha variant and neither Abomasnow was mega evolved. There being two Abomasnows makes up for it imo, and there aren‘t examples of Alpha amps being nearly as powerful as mega evolution amps, so while in theory there could be some scaling here, there’s just too many of this guy.
What damage was actually done to the stadium though? Kafka transformation wrecked earthquake and typhoon durable building across a city block. What damage was done to the stadium?
None, though it’s worth noting that the stadium was at least small town sized/town sized compared to city block. This point as a whole really doesn’t matter because we should compare their actual AP and dura over random evolutionary stuff.
They can consistently regrow their entire bodies a couple (2-3) times before being tax from feats. So minor damage like missing limbs, even missing heads, or other major organs should be regrown dozen of times over in a battle before taking serious effect.
Might be a problem in terms of wearing them down. I will say that regenerating 2-3 times is, while impressive in its own right, not really enough to say that the dozens of, at worst, equal dragons to your kaijus swarming and overwhelming them wouldn’t be able to do them in several times over. Which is what I see happening.
while they may have lethal moves, all of Kaiju moves are lethal.
Which I didn’t deny, I’m just saying that even if the Core is the best way to approach the battle, it would be just as easy due to their potent physical abilities
Not really. Pokemon debunk their own speed feats every time a TRAINER of average HUMAN SPEED FEATS is able to see and give verbal orders to their LIGHTNING FAST Pokemon in mid attacks and battles. This alone debunk 99% of Speed feats for Pokemon. So you want to say mine is hyperbole, I can lowball with this debunk thats even more clear cut.
Humans in fiction aren’t always your run-of-the-mill. This is true in Pokémon as well, from psychics like Sabrina to these following speed feats, the “they’re human” lowball isn‘t going to cut it.
I think stat multipliers will just allow them to match speed. As the feats again dont support them being faster by any measure
While the Hurricane is helping by redirecting some bolts, it’s still an extremely impressive feat. Garchomp wouldn’t scale seeing as he’s much slower, but his speed feats, especially after being furthered by amps and such, together are still better than anything displayed on your end, however slightly or greatly so.
So then we cant say Scary face or Leer will work on Kaiju here. Confuse Ray is a telepathic attack so thats fine.
In theory, they should work. For one, Pokémon abilities work on humans all the time, so why would stat manipulation be any different, and for two, I’ve never seen any reasoning for why stat manipulation wouldn’t work on anybody outside of other Pokémon, and the point of all Pokémon coming from one god so their abilities wouldn’t work an anyone else is not a great argument, as that would essentially have to mean that any ability shown by any character wouldn’t work on another character from a different franchise.
Hold up, you want to say Pokedex is bullshit to whats on screen, but you are gladly using the Pokedex for Machamp throwing mountains even though on screen has no such feats? C'mon my man. Either you sue Pokedex claims or not.
Not what I said. My stance on statements versus feats is that as long as a statement doesn’t contradict the feats or narrative and is relatively plausible to a certain degree, it can be taken into account. This particular statement is contradicted by the anime.
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
;)
Your clones are so weak to die in one hit. My clones are legit and physicals with 9.0 power levels. Also the ants are still distractive building buster fodder to take hits and Kaiju No.9 uses these lesser Kaiju as meat shields too in battle.
Granted, although I maintain the assertion that my team has a speed advantage, especially so with stats maximized and mega evolved. Your ants being building busting don’t really make a difference, considering any clone from my team can one shot them easily. Your clones are good, it’s basically a 4 (+ ants) v 2 to start with, which I can easily make a 4 (no more ants lol) v 50.
No. 9 in battle manipulates and moves the dead bodies of Kaiju to use as barriers or walls to take cover behind. Its all going to benefit Kaiju 9 and hinder your teams abilities.
Nothing different to say here. The barrier will be one shot. Your team can’t do anything especially worthwhile when behind the barrier. I can’t see it being advantageous for your team.
Their not physical really if they go down to a slight punch. In fact Kaiju No.8 has a perfect counter to this.
I’ve given more than sufficient evidence for them being physical with the Gardevoir and Froakie feats. I’ve also shown they can go around and do their own thing. Here, I show their speed also scales to the original. There’s nothing else I need to show, honestly. Shadow Clones, which is actually the name of the move, go down in one hit, though they can attack and do their own thing etc. by definition. Pokémon shadow clones are no different.
AoE
We can both see that the roar doesn’t really have all the range you’ve hyped it up to have. This is really something that my already established hypersonic characters, and by extension, clones, will be able to avoid with relative ease.
I don’t see why a fireball would be any different either. In fact, a fireball would be far slower, so even more useless than the last.
This attack is also in a relatively local area. I’d also need to see speed feats for the blasts, as again I have every confidence my team can avoid them with ease as of now.
Let’s not forget one key detail. In addition to being hard-pressed to hit them, if you luckily somehow do manage to hit one or some and by some miracle (you better pray to Jirachi my friend) all of them, it’s incredibly easy to set them back up againinstantly.Boom, just like that, all that hard work down the drain, because none of it mattered and never will matter. I can set them up perpetually.
Confuse Ray
Confuse Ray isn’t even a telepathic ability, confusion is a separate condition than mind tricks and the like. This is emphasized in the fact that it is a ghost type move and not a psychic type move, the latter being more for telepathic and “mind control”esque moves.
Now even if you want to classify it as telepathy, which we shouldn’t but just for arguments’ sake, Confuse Ray has worked on Metagross, one of the more powerful psychic type Pokémon in the franchise. Simply by virtue of being a third-stage pseudo legendary psychic type, it would scale above other “telepathic” abilities from Pokémon like Drowsee, who turned an island of Pokémon against their trainers in Pikachu Re-Volts.
One that has to hit the foe to begin with, and can be dodge.
mega Kaiju have super healing and can reform from even have their brains and nervous system destroyed.
Paralysis doesn’t attack the brain or nervous system though. It’s essentially a condition that uses electricity to “stun” the opponent, slow them down, and in many cases prevent them from moving at all. You’d need resistance to electrical attacks to resist this, not resistance to nervous system attacks.
Ant Kaiju and Why They’re Still Fodder
You bring up a good point on the ants, which is pretty much negated by the fact that my team can fly and abuse hyper beamor Draco Meteorto obliterate large numbers at a time until they’re all obliterated.
Conclusion
I‘ll keep my closing statements short and sweet.
My team has better feats and statements and the Fortitude scale being equivalent in AP to the Richter scale is questionable
My team’s speed is better even before the amps based on what’s shown so far
The human lowball is negated by human’s being insane in Pokémon, from Sabrina being a psychic to people moving at blurs, Ash throwing logs that eclipse him in size casually, etc.
Clones do indeed work the way I’ve asserted them to and they can keep their distance by flight and use speed to avoid attacks in order to increase survivability
The roar and other AoE attacks are really not omnidirectional or exceptionally quick, so they can be avoided easily
The clones can simply be set right back up instantly under the possibility that they do go down
Paralysis and Confusion will stagger your team’s efforts even more, though based on what’s shown I don’t even need them.
First up, the draco meteor assault from both my mons and all of their dozens of clones, when even one can do what’s been linked above, will take out the ants immediately. Next, it’s simply wear and tear by spamming high-intensity moves from the air, so even though you can regenerate 3 or so times before being taxed, my team can easily take out your team several times over. They also have options with Dragon Claw and Thunder Punch for physical attacks if targeting the core is the only way out.
If you’d like to do a fourth post we can, or we can head directly to voting. If it’s voting, I’ll open for votes now and tag the TAEP and T4Vers once tags are back up.
I can't vote on this one. I still think pokemon shouldn't be debated because it's too inconsistent and so much higher variance and I'm not familiar with the other universe
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