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#1 Edited by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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Doctor Octopus (represented by Major_Hellstorm)

vs

Avatar Wan (represented by Mial42)

Rules:

*This is a debate between Major_Hellstorm and Mial42. Do not comment on who you think would win until voting time.

*Both are in-character but fighting to the best of their abilities.

*Neither character has prep.

*Both characters have basic knowledge on their opponent.

*Ock's tentacles are restricted to 15 feet long.

*Starting distance of fifty feet.

*Standard Classic Ock (pre mid 2000's).

*Standard arms for Ock.

*Wan has his feats from when he was merged with Raava, but not in the AS.

*Win by KO or death.

*Fight takes place in the Spirit World by the Tree of Time

The Battle Location
The Battle Location

When the First Avatar and the Spider's foe go toe to toe, who will win?

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#2 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by foxerdes (10317 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome, T4V

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#6 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Wan

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Avatar Wan is the first avatar and a firebending prodigy. Despite the fact that he essentially made up everything as he went along, he's still an extremely formidable combatant, with an excellent combination of skill, speed, and power.

Firebending

Skill

Wan is a very skilled firebender despite his lack of formal tutelage. In fact, he essentially invented the art.

He invented fire negation, a very useful skill in an Agni Kai.
He invented fire negation, a very useful skill in an Agni Kai.
He invented firejets, and is the only firebender to actually use them to avoid attacks (without the Comet).
He invented firejets, and is the only firebender to actually use them to avoid attacks (without the Comet).
He was able to perform an extremely high level firebending move (a sustained fire wall), on literally his first day with firebending.
He was able to perform an extremely high level firebending move (a sustained fire wall), on literally his first day with firebending.
Wan is also capable of redirecting fireblasts, a move that no other firebender has shown.
Wan is also capable of redirecting fireblasts, a move that no other firebender has shown.

Power

Wan was pretty consistently very powerful in terms of firebending. It's hard to tell exactly how large his blasts are because of Vaatu's inconsistencies in size, but they're clearly very large. I'm not terribly knowledgeable on Otto, but from the looks of it, he shouldn't be able to block such massive blasts, because of their sheer size.

Creates a fire slice that cuts Vaatu in half.
Creates a fire slice that cuts Vaatu in half.
It's probably easiest to tell how large this blast is because Wan's visible. You can see that he is a tiny speck in comparison to his fire blast. This lends credibility to his other high end power feats being very good.
It's probably easiest to tell how large this blast is because Wan's visible. You can see that he is a tiny speck in comparison to his fire blast. This lends credibility to his other high end power feats being very good.
Creates a large fireblast to separate Vaatu and Raava.
Creates a large fireblast to separate Vaatu and Raava.
In this particular instance, Vaatu and Raava were comparable in size to small hills.
In this particular instance, Vaatu and Raava were comparable in size to small hills.
Creates a blast large and powerful enough to briefly disrupt Vaatu's entire body.
Creates a blast large and powerful enough to briefly disrupt Vaatu's entire body.

Other Elements

Airbending

Wan's firebending provides powerful offense, but his airbending is what gives him the mobility that makes him so formidable. More importantly, it allows him to stay out of reach of Otto's tentacles.

Wan can create a rather large airspout, a master level airbending move.
Wan can create a rather large airspout, a master level airbending move.
Wan's nimbus cloud is extremely fast and maneuverable. In this gif, Wan is dodging Vaatu's high speed tentacle attacks while matching his travel speed (notice how the background is blurring?).
Wan's nimbus cloud is extremely fast and maneuverable. In this gif, Wan is dodging Vaatu's high speed tentacle attacks while matching his travel speed (notice how the background is blurring?).
For context, Vaatu can cross the distance between the two spirit portals in seconds while moving casually. Wan matched a serious, combat Vaatu.
For context, Vaatu can cross the distance between the two spirit portals in seconds while moving casually. Wan matched a serious, combat Vaatu.
Casually creates a large airblast to force back a large group of dark spirits.
Casually creates a large airblast to force back a large group of dark spirits.

Earth and Water

There isn't too much to say about these elements. Wan can create high speed projectiles with them and has decent earthbending power.

Water blasts. More importantly, it shows that he can create his nimbus instantly, as you can see when he's about to hit the ground.
Water blasts. More importantly, it shows that he can create his nimbus instantly, as you can see when he's about to hit the ground.
It shows he can lift and fire fairly large rocks a large distance.
It shows he can lift and fire fairly large rocks a large distance.
He can earth jump extremely high.
He can earth jump extremely high.

Physical Abilities

Speed

Wan doesn't have too many concrete speed feats, but he is fairly respectable, especially considering he only has two episodes and only one major fight.

Keeping up with and beating a large group of dark spirit fodder.
Keeping up with and beating a large group of dark spirit fodder.
He could fight evenly with Vaatu in base, whereas a slightly weaker version of Vaatu (Vaatu and Raava's powers are inversely proportional, and Korra's Raava was stronger than Wan's) casually danced around Korra's attacks.
He could fight evenly with Vaatu in base, whereas a slightly weaker version of Vaatu (Vaatu and Raava's powers are inversely proportional, and Korra's Raava was stronger than Wan's) casually danced around Korra's attacks.
No Caption Provided

For context, here's Korra reacting to a surprise explosion:

Clear explosion timing. This takes place a couple of weeks after Korra fought Vaatu, not enough time for a major improvement.
Clear explosion timing. This takes place a couple of weeks after Korra fought Vaatu, not enough time for a major improvement.
This gif shows excellent travel speed, as I showed above, and great dodging abilities in dodging Vaatu's tentacles.
This gif shows excellent travel speed, as I showed above, and great dodging abilities in dodging Vaatu's tentacles.

Wan casually times fireblasts:

Running in well after the blast is fired.
Running in well after the blast is fired.

And fireblasts in Avatar move at around arrow speeds:

The arrow and the blast move at basically the same speed.
The arrow and the blast move at basically the same speed.
Here he dodges Vaatu's laser.
Here he dodges Vaatu's laser.
And here he does it again.
And here he does it again.

Considering Ock can tangle with the likes of Spidey, he's probably significantly faster in terms of combat speed. However, Wan is probably fast enough to react to the tentacles at the edge of their range. More importantly however, his cloud based flight allows him to stay out of the tentacle's 15 foot range, a major edge in this fight.

Durability

Wan's most impressive physical attribute is without a doubt his durability. Unfortunately, Otto's arms are almost certainly strong enough to tear Wan in half if they get a hold of him, but if Otto hits him instead of grabbing him, Wan might be tough enough to tank it.

In his fight with Vaatu, he tanked:

A physical blow from Vaatu that sends him flying a huge distance (keep in mind that Vaatu's attacks shatter the ground).
A physical blow from Vaatu that sends him flying a huge distance (keep in mind that Vaatu's attacks shatter the ground).
An energy blast from Vaatu that sent him flying.
An energy blast from Vaatu that sent him flying.
Another energy attack from Vaatu.
Another energy attack from Vaatu.
A fall and another swat from Vaatu's tentacles.
A fall and another swat from Vaatu's tentacles.
Keep in mind he was dying thanks to Raava for much of the fight. Also another fall.
Keep in mind he was dying thanks to Raava for much of the fight. Also another fall.
And this brutal tentacle slam+energy beam combo.
And this brutal tentacle slam+energy beam combo.

And he was still fine at the end of the fight.

Strategy

I don't know all that much about Otto, so this might be subject to revision. As soon as the fight starts, Wan is going to get on his nimbus. He'll stay airborne throughout the fight, so as to be out of reach of Otto's tentacles. While he's up there, he'll use his most powerful fireblasts on Otto, which, from what I can tell, are big enough that the tentacles can't block the whole blast. Eventually, Otto will be so burned that he'll either faint or die.

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#7 Edited by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm

My opener is up. It's pretty short, because Wan doesn't have all that many feats and I don't know much about Ock.

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Cool, I may take awhile cause I have to do something first but I think I can make a post sometime next week.

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#9 Posted by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

gotta tag me

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#10 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#11 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

This is quite easily the coolest CAV I have seen in a while. A spiderman villain vs the first avatar? T4V

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#13 Posted by Huskii (461 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#14 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Doctor Octopus

Doctor Otto Octavius was a brilliant nuclear physicist and inventor of a new technology, a harness with mechanical arms attached to it, initially he had only wanted to use it for science but after a freak lab accident he became fused with the tech and became the nefarious Doctor Octopus.

Basic Overview

Doc Ock's only power in this fight is his intellect and his arms, here I will give you a basic idea of how good Doc Ock is.

Strength of Arms

Here Doctor Octopus shows the strength of his arms by picking up and throwing a train car without much difficulty.

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And here Doc Ock shows that his arms have the strength to potentially crush Spidey's ribs.

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Durability of Arms

Next we move on to durability. Here it is shown that his arms can tank being shot at by multiple handguns with ease, he also says that his arms are virtually indestructible.

No Caption Provided

Speed of the Arms

You were right to assume that Doc Ock is faster, as he most certainly is. His arms are fast enough to tag Spider-Man even when Spidey was dodging.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Note: Otto thought he was fight a robot not the OG Spider-Man, but he was wrong that was the real Spidey (scans if needed).

Counters

I don't know all that much about Otto, so this might be subject to revision.

Okay.

As soon as the fight starts, Wan is going to get on his nimbus. He'll stay airborne throughout the fight, so as to be out of reach of Otto's tentacles. While he's up there, he'll use his most powerful fireblasts on Otto, which, from what I can tell, are big enough that the tentacles can't block the whole blast. Eventually, Otto will be so burned that he'll either faint or die.

There are some whole with your plan, 1. He cannot attack and stay on his nimbus at the same time. 2. Doc Ock has a counter to anything Wan can do airborne and 3. You assume Otto needs to block the entire blast, when he can block the blast two ways. Proof below.

Avatar Otto

Countering Fire Blasts

So first I will counter your fire blasts with airbending. So in you scans you show how powerful and skilled Wan is, however Ock has a counter to that in the form of gas dispersion. You can see what I mean below.

No Caption Provided

So as you can see Doc Ock can whirl around his arms to get rid of tear gas, in fact he creates winds so powerfuk that the policemen around him get thrown to the floor. Now you may be thinking this takes time but in one panel Otto goes from arms moving to whirl wind speeds, and remember Wan would have to be at least 30 feet up to be out if range of the tentacles and Otto reacts to Spidey, so spinning his arms before the fire hist will be no problem.

Or he can just cover his body with his tentacles, he has a length of 60 of them combined so that won't be hard, but you might be thinking that it burns him anyway since his arms are metal, but Otto's arms don't conduct electricity and can tank pumpkin bombs all day.

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How Does Otto Win?

So there goes the fire spamming, but how would Otto beat Wan? Simple, in a game of stamina, every time Wan attacks he has to move his body and rush to re-create his nimbus, he may be the avatar but he is just a man with limited stamina, Otto's arms meanwhile seemingly runs on infinite energy so he can fight all day.

But don't be mistaken, Otto won't just sit down and wait for Wan to tire himself out he is a man of action, so to speed up the process Otto will throw boulders at Wan which Wan would have to dodge or bend away. But how does Otto do this when there is nothing around to throw? Through earth bending, Otto he is capable of easily digging through bedrock, as shown here.

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He can use that ability to create boulders and projectiles for him to throw. Plus Otto is quite accurate, being able to throw 6 knives pinning down 2 chefs by their cloths.

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So Otto can tire out Wan by throwing stuff at him or letting Want attack him then deflecting the attacks. Once Wan tires he will fly too low then Otto will catch him using his superior speed then crush his bones.

Final Thoughts

As you said you may change your strategy since you lacked knowledge on Otto, however I doubt that it matters, Otto can counter air the same way he counters fire and he can counter earth by simply breaking any projectiles thrown at him. Wan hasn't shown advanced water bending moves so it won't be a problem. All in all, I do not think Wan has the stamina or strength needed to defeat Otto, if he were able to catch Otto's arm with thick rock/ice then maybe he can burn him, but Wan hasn't shown the ability to bend earth or water like that or the speed to do it.

In short, Otto tanks and outlasts.

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
Round 2
Round 2

Counters

Defending My Plan

There are some whole with your plan, 1. He cannot attack and stay on his nimbus at the same time.

False. Wan needs to leave his nimbus for his most powerful attacks, but he can use basic (but still very powerful, considering how easily Vaatu dealt with Korra's similar attacks) blasts from his nimbus:

Fireblasts.
Fireblasts.
Earthbending offense.
Earthbending offense.
Waterblasts.
Waterblasts.

3. You assume Otto needs to block the entire blast, when he can block the blast two ways. Proof below.

Looks like my strategy needs some revising. Look to the end of my post for details.

Beating Avatar Otto

Wan would have to be at least 30 feet up to be out if range of the tentacles and Otto reacts to Spidey, so spinning his arms before the fire hist will be no problem.

Not necessarily true. If Otto goes up on two tentacles (what he'd need for a thirty foot range) he loses significant defensive abilities, making it more likely a boulder or fireblast will slip through. Furthermore, while Otto's range from the ground is thirty feet, his range from what he's trying to protect (himself) is only 15 feet, increasing the likelihood that he'll miss something or that his charge up time will take too long.

Or he can just cover his body with his tentacles, he has a length of 60 of them combined so that won't be hard, but yiu might be thinking that it burns him anyway since his arms are metal, but Otto's arms don't conduct electicity and can tank pupkin bombs all day.

Electricity isn't fire, does Otto have any heat resistance feats with them (I assume he does, but I'm just curious)?

Or he can just cover his body with his tentacles, he has a length of 60 of them combined so that won't be hard, but yiu might be thinking that it burns him anyway since his arms are metal, but Otto's arms don't conduct electicity and can tank pupkin bombs all day.

Has he ever done this? This fight is in-character.

So there goes the fire spamming, but how would Otto beat Wan? Simple, in a game of stamina, every time Wan attacks he has to move his body and rush to re-create his nimbus, he may be the avatar but he is just a man with limited stamina, Otto's arms meanwhile seemingly runs on infite energy so he can fight all day.

That would take a rather long time. I showed gifs of his fight with Vaatu above in my durability section, and I'll reiterate the relevant parts of that fight here. Despite fighting the seemingly invincible spirit of darkness, tanking extremely powerful hits, dying thanks to Raava, and bending at his absolute best for an extended period of time, he was fine at the end of it. He won't be dying or tanking hits throughout this fight, so he should last significantly longer. Equally importantly, this is in the Spirit World and there is no BFR condition to this fight. If he's extremely desperate, he can run away and take a dip in the rejuvenating waters of the Spirit World. However, one way or another, I doubt it will come to that.

But don't be mistaken, Otto won't just sit down and wait for Wan to tire himself out he is a man of action, so to speed up the process Otto will throw boulders at Wan which Wan would have to dodge or bend away. But how does Otto do this when there is nothing around to throw? Through earth bending, Otto he is capable of eaily digging through bedrock, as shown here.

How quickly can he do that, and has he ever done that in a fight? In the scan you showed, there doesn't seem to be a time frame mentioned, and has he ever used his arms to dig large quantities of earth quickly? Furthermore, he risks giving Wan more ammo if he does that.

He can use that ability to create boulders and projectiles for him to throw. Plus Otto is quite accurate, being able to throw 6 knives pinning down 2 chefs by their cloths.

Has he ever created boulders in a reasonable time frame? Wan's not going to give him fifteen seconds to dig. His accuracy doesn't matter all that much here, unless he can throw his rocks significantly faster than arrows.

So Otto can tire out Wan by throwing stuff at him or letting Want attack him then deflecting the attacks. Once Wan tires he will fly too low then Otto will catch him using his superior speed then cush his bones.

Wan isn't just going to let Otto tire him out, he's going to switch tactics to my strategy below. Also, I doubt Wan will fly lower just because he's tired. His nimbus isn't an airspout, there's no logical reason why it would be more difficult for him to fly higher rather than lower.

My Plan vs Yours

So, in light of new knowledge, I've decided to revise my plan a bit. You've proven that Otto can handle fire or earth individually (although you haven't shown anything for water), but can he counter a combo? In my new plan, instead of instantly going nimbus, Wan is going to use the blast he used to separate Vaatu and Raava on Otto:

Again, Vaatu and Raava are comparable to hills in size in this instance.
Again, Vaatu and Raava are comparable to hills in size in this instance.

When Otto starts using his propeller arms to disperse the blast (the IC thing for him to do based on your post), his vision will be temporarily blocked. Wan will immediately exploit that by spamming waterblasts at high speed at Otto:

Again, these blasts hit Vaatu when those of Korra, a high end master waterbender, were too slow, which speaks volume to their potency.
Again, these blasts hit Vaatu when those of Korra, a high end master waterbender, were too slow, which speaks volume to their potency.

For context:

Aang, who's basically fodder as a waterbender by this point in B2, cuts through several feet of steel with waterbending.
Aang, who's basically fodder as a waterbender by this point in B2, cuts through several feet of steel with waterbending.

If even one of the waterblasts connects with Otto himself while his vision is blocked, he's done.

If the opening phase fails, Wan will immediately launch himself skyward with earthbending:

This will get him some distance quickly.
This will get him some distance quickly.

Where he'll create his nimbus. Once he's on his nimbus, his plan will essentially be to spam everything at Otto and hope it works. Otto has counters to all of Wan's moves individually, but he can't do them all simultaneously, meaning a well executed combo could break Otto's defense.

As you said you may change your strategy since younlacked knowledge on Otto, however I doubt that it matters, Otto can counter air the same way he couters fire and he can couter earth by simply breaking any projectiles thrown at him.

But countering fire leaves him vulnerable to earth or water. Also, if the arms just shatter Wan's human sized boulders, the fragments still pose a danger to Otto.

Wan hasn't shown advanced water bending moves so it won't be a problem.

Wan's waterbending may not be advanced, but it is very powerful. Ignore it at your peril.

All in all, I do not think Wan has the stamina or strength needed to defeat Otto

Well, in conjunction with the OP waters of the Spirit World, I'd say Wan has the tools to continue this fight for as long as need be. Otto still lacks the offense to do anything to Wan on his cloud, meaning that without the stamina advantage all you can hope for is a stalemate.

@major_hellstorm: My first set of counters are up.

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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Well that was quick. I'll try to get something up soon. Will your next post be your last one so we get 3 posts each or will we go 4 posts each?

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#18 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Marishtar (2167 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Very interessting, T4V plz.

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#21 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Counters

Countering Your Plan

False. Wan needs to leave his nimbus for his most powerful attacks, but he can use basic (but still very powerful, considering how easily Vaatu dealt with Korra's similar attacks) blasts from his nimbus

For the first scan he was flying low and his nimbus still broke, for the second you are right however he still needed to swoop down to get the earth and for your third scan he again was only flying low. Nothing yet to prove he can use any attacks asides earthbending from 15-30 feet up, not go mention that even if Wan could use those fire/water attacks from above they were just quick jabs which Otto can easily block.

No Caption Provided

As you can see below he blocks arrows from Hawkeye, a master marksman even if he was only a few feet away.

Defending Avatar Otto

Not necessarily true. If Otto goes up on two tentacles (what he'd need for a thirty foot range) he loses significant defensive abilities, making it more likely a boulder or fireblast will slip through. Furthermore, while Otto's range from the ground is thirty feet, his range from what he's trying to protect (himself) is only 15 feet, increasing the likelihood that he'll miss something or that his charge up time will take too long.

This is mostly true, but if Wan wanted to stay out of Doc Ock's range like you planned he would have to be 30 feet away other wise Otto would catch him them snap him in two, even if Wan was 15 feet away I would still bet on Otto grabbing him before Wan can go another 15 feet further.

Electricity isn't fire, does Otto have any heat resistance feats with them (I assume he does, but I'm just curious)?

Yes he does, asides from the pumpkin bomb, his tentacles helped him survive the heat of a nuclear explosion.

No Caption Provided

Yes, Otto was also inside of a bomb shelter but his arms protected him as well, he says as much in the next page not only that but the explosion melted the arms back on him (he was healed from them at that point).

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So yeah, his arms dealt with nuclear heat.

Has he ever done this? This fight is in-character.

Yes, shown in my first nuke scan. He is only facing a fire blast here so he won't have to cover his body as much.

That would take a rather long time. I showed gifs of his fight with Vaatu above in my durability section, and I'll reiterate the relevant parts of that fight here. Despite fighting the seemingly invincible spirit of darkness, tanking extremely powerful hits, dying thanks to Raava, and bending at his absolute best for an extended period of time, he was fine at the end of it.

Yeah, but he went AS at the end of it and the fight only lasted a few minutes.

He won't be dying or tanking hits throughout this fight, so he should last significantly longer. Equally importantly, this is in the Spirit World and there is no BFR condition to this fight. If he's extremely desperate, he can run away and take a dip in the rejuvenating waters of the Spirit World. However, one way or another, I doubt it will come to that.

Do you have feats of the waters healing by touch? Cause I thought only water benders can use the water to heal and even though Wan is a water bender I haven't seen him heal anything, further healing through water isn't an instantaneous, also how will he get to the spirit water without being in range of Otto's arms?

How quickly can he do that,

He dug through 70 feet at least within an hour so he can do it very quickly.

and has he ever done that in a fight?

No, but he is a fan of throwing things at far away people and it is in character for him to do so.

In the scan you showed, there doesn't seem to be a time frame mentioned, and has he ever used his arms to dig large quantities of earth quickly?

You mean like I described? Not exactly but I have proved that he can do it, he hasn't because he only ever fights Spidey or Spidey related characters so he never had to (sometimes he fights other Marvel street levelers), he does use his surroundings to his advantage in fights though so it isn't out of character, as you can see here where he drowns Daredevil.

No Caption Provided

Furthermore, he risks giving Wan more ammo if he does that.

Doesn't matter, he can crush whatever he throws the same why he made it in the first place.

Has he ever created boulders in a reasonable time frame? Wan's not going to give him fifteen seconds to dig. His accuracy doesn't matter all that much here, unless he can throw his rocks significantly faster than arrows.

Not exactly but we can assume that it would only take 2-3 seconds as the boulders wouldn't even have to be that big. His accuracy matters if he wants to force Wan to dodge or counter the shots and if he wants to throw multiple projectiles at once.

Wan isn't just going to let Otto tire him out, he's going to switch tactics to my strategy below. Also, I doubt Wan will fly lower just because he's tired. His nimbus isn't an airspout, there's no logical reason why it would be more difficult for him to fly higher rather than lower.

I will counter your revised strategy as well. He would fly lower because he has to constantly bend the cloud for it to remain which is why he can only keep it if he uses quick attacks and he can't bend if he is flat-out exhausted.

Countering Your Revised Strategy

So, in light of new knowledge, I've decided to revise my plan a bit. You've proven that Otto can handle fire or earth individually (although you haven't shown anything for water), but can he counter a combo? In my new plan, instead of instantly going nimbus, Wan is going to use the blast he used to separate Vaatu and Raava on Otto:

When Otto starts using his propeller arms to disperse the blast (the IC thing for him to do based on your post), his vision will be temporarily blocked. Wan will immediately exploit that by spamming waterblasts at high speed at Otto:

Good plan except if you attack with fire blast then attack with water right as the battle begins you will be 50 feet away from Doc Ock which means your water blast would have to travel 50 feet in order to tag Otto, I am certain Otto can regain his vision in less time than it takes for the water to reach him (his shades help him with that) then swat the water blasts away or dodge them. Spider-Man once did something similar but was caught by Ock.

No Caption Provided

As you can see Spidey threw a rock at Otto then leapt at him, but the rock was blocked and Spidey was caught, now Otto wasn't blinded here but Spidey even when poisoned can leap a lot faster than those water blasts can travel 50 feet. The tactic is also not helped by the fact that if the water blasts do manage to get close enough the wind will slow it down (remember it knocked down police officers) enough for Otto to react to it.

If even one of the waterblasts connects with Otto himself while his vision is blocked, he's done.

1. The Aang feat was a two bender job and at that stage Katara was already more skilled than Wan 2. I have trouble believing Wan would us deadly force on a man as his opening move, past Avatars have killed but only when needed, Roku, Aang and Korra have all hesitated to kill before.

Where he'll create his nimbus. Once he's on his nimbus, his plan will essentially be to spam everything at Otto and hope it works. Otto has counters to all of Wan's moves individually, but he can't do them all simultaneously, meaning a well executed combo could break Otto's defense.

Show me when Wan has used all the elements at the same time, or even two at a time outside the Avatar state. Cause if he goes it one after the other Otto can just keep countering, and the only move that is hard for Otto to counter is Wan's bigger fire blasts otherwise he can swat away boulders, air kicks, flame jabs and water whips with ease, 4 at a time.

But countering fire leaves him vulnerable to earth or water. Also, if the arms just shatter Wan's human sized boulders, the fragments still pose a danger to Otto.

Only when Wan uses his big bursts otherwise Otto can counter the flame blasts the same way he counters the other attacks, and like I said if Wan is 30 or 50 away Otto is fast enough to recover from the flame burst then counter Wan's next attack. The fragments won't even hurt Otto as it won't make it to its target and would be too tiny to hurt him.

Wan's waterbending may not be advanced, but it is very powerful. Ignore it at your peril.

He can swat away or dodge the blasts. Here is proof that Otto can dodge.

No Caption Provided

As you can see Otto easily evades Spidey, who again even when poisoned is quick on his feat.

Well, in conjunction with the OP waters of the Spirit World, I'd say Wan has the tools to continue this fight for as long as need be. Otto still lacks the offense to do anything to Wan on his cloud, meaning that without the stamina advantage all you can hope for is a stalemate.

Like I said, I will need evidence that Wan can heal himself. I also doubt that Wan can just go bath in the waters they nimbus his way out without Otto catching him. Otto can easily keep pace with Wan's nimbus, as every step he takes he moves 15 feet.

Final Thoughts

While your revised strategy is certainly better, I think the battle will end the same way. Reason being, I think Otto can counter the initial attack, then when your plan goes to phase 2 Otto can still counter and tank Wan's attacks and tire out Wan himself. . I also need to see feats for spirit water but till then Ock outlasts.

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

If this was a looks contest, Wan would definitely win.
If this was a looks contest, Wan would definitely win.

Defending Parts of My Initial Strategy

For the first scan he was flying low and his nimbus still broke,

It only broke because he was dying thanks to Raava. This is what happened immediately afterward:

You can see his outline blurring.
You can see his outline blurring.

for the second you are right however he still needed to swoop down to get the earth and for your third scan he again was only flying low. Nothing yet to prove he can use any attacks asides earthbending from 15-30 feet up, not go mention that even if Wan could use those fire/water attacks from above they were just quick jabs which Otto can easily block.

He doesn't need to stay thirty feet up. He can stay ten feet up, but say, fifty feet away and still be out of range of Ock's tentacles, with enough spare room to avoid a blitz. He only needs to stay high when Ock is nearby.

Defending the Counters to Avatar Otto

This is mostly true, but if Wan wanted to stay out of Doc Ock's range like you planned he would have to be 30 feet away other wise Otto would catch him them snap him in two, even if Wan was 15 feet away I would still bet on Otto grabbing him before Wan can go another 15 feet further.

Wan will never be closer than twenty feet away from Ock, giving him the room he needs to dodge quickly. He can cover vertical distance extremely quickly on his nimbus:

Pretty self explanatory.
Pretty self explanatory.

Yes he does, asides from the pumpkin bomb, his tentacles helped him survive the heat of a nuclear explosion.

Holy sh*t! That's extremely impressive.

Yeah, but he went AS at the end of it and the fight only lasted a few minutes.

He did go AS, but the AS doesn't reduce exhaustion. In fact, according to Brian Konietzko (one of the showrunners), the AS might even cause bodily stress with prolonged use:

Konietzko:You gotta keep in mind that he was frozen in a state of suspended animation for 100 years, so he kind of burned up some of his extra Avatar time.

As for endurance, I have a few gifs right here. These gifs are from after Wan was banished from the Lion Turtle, so a massively pre-prime version of Wan. The Wan I'm using is massively above this Wan in every category. Every gif I'm about to show takes place over more than a day, with no food, water, or rest for Wan. Unless the fight takes hours, Wan isn't going to be outlasted:

Firebending, including a fire saw, a decently high level move, at the beginning.
Firebending, including a fire saw, a decently high level move, at the beginning.
Escaping from a giant spirit frog, then getting eaten and firebending to escape the plant that ate him.
Escaping from a giant spirit frog, then getting eaten and firebending to escape the plant that ate him.
Escapes the suffocation grass.
Escapes the suffocation grass.
Running from bees. I'd also like to note that Wan's level of exhaustion is at least in part dependent on his mindset (the bags almost completely disappear from his eyes when he sees the
Running from bees. I'd also like to note that Wan's level of exhaustion is at least in part dependent on his mindset (the bags almost completely disappear from his eyes when he sees the "fruit". The Wan I'm using has a "never give up" attitude.
Tanks a fall off a cliff.
Tanks a fall off a cliff.
The Aye-Aye spirit sends him flying with a blow.
The Aye-Aye spirit sends him flying with a blow.
And then tosses him in a bush when Wan tries to use firebending as leverage.
And then tosses him in a bush when Wan tries to use firebending as leverage.
Tosses him in a lake.
Tosses him in a lake.
This is some fairly powerful firebending (notice how it dwarfs the hunters?). It's nothing compared to his best feats, but this version is exhausted + massively pre-prime (missing two years dragon training and another year training with Raava).
This is some fairly powerful firebending (notice how it dwarfs the hunters?). It's nothing compared to his best feats, but this version is exhausted + massively pre-prime (missing two years dragon training and another year training with Raava).
Acrobatics + running.
Acrobatics + running.
Tanks a fire explosion that knows him into a tree branch.
Tanks a fire explosion that knows him into a tree branch.

Do you have feats of the waters healing by touch? Cause I thought only water benders can use the water to heal and even though Wan is a water bender I haven't seen him heal anything, further healing through water isn't an instantaneous, also how will he get to the spirit water without being in range of Otto's arms?

Indeed I do:

The water heals him of everything I just showed + his hunger, thirst, and exhaustion (he said
The water heals him of everything I just showed + his hunger, thirst, and exhaustion (he said "he felt great" just after this), in seconds, no healing required.

As for how he'll reach the water, he'll just fly away from Otto, and when he reaches a stream he'll jump off his nimbus and fire a huge blast to obscure Otto's view:

Something like this should do the trick.
Something like this should do the trick.

Otto will almost certainly have realized the pattern that giant fireblast + stream = waterblasts incoming by now, so he won't immediately try and blitz Wan. This will buy Wan the ~2-3 seconds he needs to heal up, assuming the fight takes that long, which I highly doubt.

He dug through 70 feet at least within an hour so he can do it very quickly.

Around a 14 inches a minute is nowhere near fast enough to produce viable projectiles to use against Wan, especially since, from the scan you showed, all they did was drill, which is only good for making holes.

No, but he is a fan of throwing things at far away people and it is in character for him to do so.

Okay, but he won't be able to make good projectiles quickly, and even making them risks Wan exploiting the fact that he's using his arms for something other than defense. Not to mention Wan can just tank the hit based on the durability feats in my opener.

Not exactly but we can assume that it would only take 2-3 seconds as the boulders wouldn't even have to be that big. His accuracy matters if he wants to force Wan to dodge or counter the shots and if he wants to throw multiple projectiles at once.

If he want to chuck pebbles at Wan, more power to him, but Wan can still dodge (and even turn the dodge into an attack):

Wan: Turning dodging into attacking since 9829 BG (before genocide).
Wan: Turning dodging into attacking since 9829 BG (before genocide).

Alternately, Wan's got the durability to just tank it.

He would fly lower because he has to constantly bend the cloud for it to remain.

But why would flying lower make bending the cloud easier? Again, it's not the same as an airspout, there's no logical reason for it to be harder to maintain at fifty feet than at thirty.

Defending My Revised Strategy

Good plan except if you attack with fire blast then attack with water right as the battle begins you will be 50 feet away from Doc Ock which means your water blast would have to travel 50 feet in order to tag Otto, I am certain Otto can regain his vision in less time than it takes for the water to reach him (his shades help him with that) then swat the water blasts away or dodge them.

I've already showed that basic fireblasts from fodder travel at arrow speed. Vaatu handled Wan's basic fireblasts and water attacks almost identically, suggesting they too are arrow speed if not faster.

Wan's basic fire attacks vs Vaatu.
Wan's basic fire attacks vs Vaatu.
Wan's basic waterblasts vs Vaatu.
Wan's basic waterblasts vs Vaatu.

Assuming they travel at 200 feet per second (a conservative estimate), that gives Otto a quarter second to both clear his vision and react. We don't even know if he can clear his vision in that time.

As you can see Spidey threw a rock at Otto then leapt at him, but the rock was blocked and Spidey was caught, now Otto wasn't blinded here but Spidey even when poisoned can leap a lot faster than those water blasts can travel 50 feet.

Otto being able to see and Spidey being poisoned make this a rather unfair comparison. Also, does Spidey under the influence of this particular poison (not a different one, which might have different effects) have travel speed feats better than an arrow? Because he'd need to be significantly beyond that for this to be valid (taking into account Otto being able to see).

The tactic is also not helped by the fact that if the water blasts do manage to get close enough the wind will slow it down (remember it knocked down police officers) enough for Otto to react to it.

Considering the sheer speed and mass of these waterblasts, I doubt the wind will slow it down much.

1. The Aang feat was a two bender job and at that stage Katara was already more skilled than Wan

No, they were alternating their shots, each individual cut was done by Katara OR Aang, not both.

You can see they remain in the stance they were in after firing the blast until their partner fires it back to them.
You can see they remain in the stance they were in after firing the blast until their partner fires it back to them.

2. I have trouble believing Wan would us deadly force on a man as his opening move, past Avatars have killed but only when needed, Roku, Aang and Korra have all hesitated to kill before.

Other Avatars have hesitated to kill before, yes, but while Wan is a fundamentally good person, he's far more willing to use lethal force than most other Avatars.

Chucks bees at one hunter which carry him away and presumably kill him.
Chucks bees at one hunter which carry him away and presumably kill him.
Lures them into the suffocation grass.
Lures them into the suffocation grass.

Keep in mind, Wan has basic knowledge, he knows Otto is a villain.

Show me when Wan has used all the elements at the same time, or even two at a time outside the Avatar state.

Here:

Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR elements.
Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR elements.

But I don't think that's what you meant. If you mean offensively, then he hasn't, but what I meant was that he'd quickly alternate between them to try and force Otto into making a mistake.

if Wan is 30 or 50 away Otto is fast enough to recover from the flame burst then counter Wan's next attack.

Considering how fast Wan's attacks move, I doubt that.

The fragments won't even hurt Otto as it won't make it to its target and would be too tiny to hurt him.

Who says it won't? Shattering a human sized boulder a few feet from your body would likely cause shards to go everywhere. From what you said, Otto has normal human durability, so I imagine a high speed fist sized rock to the teeth could cause some damage.

As you can see Otto easily evades Spidey, who again even when poisoned is quick on his feat.

Is this particular version of poisoned Spidey faster than an arrow in travel speed?

Like I said, I will need evidence that Wan can heal himself. I also doubt that Wan can just go bath in the waters they nimbus his way out without Otto catching him. Otto can easily keep pace with Wan's nimbus, as every step he takes he moves 15 feet.

Posted the Spirit Water feat above. Wan will use one of his larger fire attacks to cover himself while he bathes, and his nimbus to create some distance for him to do so. Also, how fast is Ock's travel speed on his arms? Because here's Wan matching serious Vaatu's travel speed:

This is also combat speed because he's dodging Vaatu's tentacles.
This is also combat speed because he's dodging Vaatu's tentacles.

And here are a couple of Vaatu's travel speed feats, even while casual:

Here's him casually going around a large rock outcropping in his weakest form (approx. 1/2 as strong as the one Wan matched)
Here's him casually going around a large rock outcropping in his weakest form (approx. 1/2 as strong as the one Wan matched)
He can casually cross the entire battlefield we're using in seconds.
He can casually cross the entire battlefield we're using in seconds.

Countering your final thoughts:

also need to see feats for spirit water but till then Ock outlasts.

So now that I have feats for the Spirit Water, is it a stalemate at worst for Wan? Or do you have something else up your sleeve?

Final Strategy

From what I can tell, Wan's best hope of getting through Ock's defense is a vision obscuring fireblast + arrow speed water blast combo. You still haven't posted feats sufficient to get past the opening volley of that, so I'll keep phase 1 the same, but I'm going to change phase 2 a bit. Once he's in the air, Wan is going to focus on earth attacks, because those are the ones most likely to beat his defense, as the fragments of shattered boulder can still injure Otto. Whenever possible, he'll gain some horizontal distance (say, 50+ feet) and repeat his fireblast + water attacks combo. He'll keep doing this until something gets past Ock's arms. While I doubt the fight will last that long, if it somehow does go on long enough to strain Wan's stamina, he can use a fireblast to cover himself getting a rejuvenating bath, especially since Ock will be expecting follow up water attacks by this point.

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#26 Edited by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Okay, it will be up tommorow.

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#28 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

But you won't ever look as cool as Doc Ock.
But you won't ever look as cool as Doc Ock.

Final Counters

Countering Your Initial Strategy

It only broke because he was dying thanks to Raava. This is what happened immediately afterward:

Maybe, but the fireball probably didn't help things either.

He doesn't need to stay thirty feet up. He can stay ten feet up, but say, fifty feet away and still be out of range of Ock's tentacles, with enough spare room to avoid a blitz. He only needs to stay high when Ock is nearby.

As long as he has to go on his nimbus his attacks are limited and they would still have to travel a distance of 25 feet.

The Otto State

Wan will never be closer than twenty feet away from Ock, giving him the room he needs to dodge quickly. He can cover vertical distance extremely quickly on his nimbus:

Even if we were 20 feet away I would still say Otto could catch Wan. Your GIF is good but I can't tell how far did Wan go exactly and even if he flew away vertically Otto would close the distance easily so he would have to go up which I do not think he can do as fast on a nimbus. You might be asking just how fast Ock can travel, well when his arms were 24 feet long he was able to cross a city block in mere instants while carrying cargo.

No Caption Provided

Now while his tentacles were shorter here this feat is still very impressive as a city block is around 100,000 sq. feet in size and this isn't just hyperbole, keep in mind you are dealing with Doc Ock's tentacles 4, 24 feet long bullet timing monsters. So yes, I think That if you were only 10 feet in the air Otto could snatch you up in instants.

Holy sh*t! That's extremely impressive.

Should solve the fire problem I think, lol.

He did go AS, but the AS doesn't reduce exhaustion. In fact, according to Brian Konietzko (one of the showrunners), the AS might even cause bodily stress with prolonged use:

Yeah but it stopped Raava from killing him plus didn't he touch the spirit water fountain to go AS that should have healed him from what you have said.

As for endurance, I have a few gifs right here. These gifs are from after Wan was banished from the Lion Turtle, so a massively pre-prime version of Wan. The Wan I'm using is massively above this Wan in every category. Every gif I'm about to show takes place over more than a day, with no food, water, or rest for Wan. Unless the fight takes hours, Wan isn't going to be outlasted:

First of all he was not in combat the entire time using powerful moves and constantly bending to stay on his nimbus, second of all even Aang after a few day+ flying with Appa got tired so tired that Azula nearly solo'd his group, keep in mind this is just a retelling it isn't 100% accurate (no one in the whole Avatar verse is as durable as him or can stay awake that long without weakening).

Indeed I do:

Nice. But that seems far from the battle location, too far to just go to in the middle of a fight.

As for how he'll reach the water, he'll just fly away from Otto, and when he reaches a stream he'll jump off his nimbus and fire a huge blast to obscure Otto's view:

So he'll heal Otto with the steam (since the water seemed to just heal when touched) jump in the water and fly out without only Otto being blinded? The opposite is true actually, as Doc Ock's shades help him see even in a thick black fog while Wan has no such defense against his own blinding attack. Essentially you are blinding yourself and healing Otto, Wan will surely get caught by the tentacles at this point (especially because Ock can travel faster than him so Ock won't be more than 5 feet behind).

Around a 14 inches a minute is nowhere near fast enough to produce viable projectiles to use against Wan, especially since, from the scan you showed, all they did was drill, which is only good for making holes.

He went through bedrock and reinforced concrete in that time which is harder than the battlefield's ground, not to mention Otto won't be drilling just tearing boulders from the ground which he can go with ease (he can lift a 35 ton train car as I have showed).

Okay, but he won't be able to make good projectiles quickly, and even making them risks Wan exploiting the fact that he's using his arms for something other than defense. Not to mention Wan can just tank the hit based on the durability feats in my opener.

Even if digging the boulders from the ground will take long (which I doubt) Otto can just smash the sharp rock formation on the battlefield to create projectiles, plus Ock only needs 1 arm to creat a project he still has 3 free.

If he want to chuck pebbles at Wan, more power to him, but Wan can still dodge (and even turn the dodge into an attack):

That's the idea. If Wan dodges Wan uses energy which is what Otto wants. So Wan runs out of steam.

Alternately, Wan's got the durability to just tank it.

Wan could tank it, his nimbus can't so unless he wants to fall he will dodge it.

But why would flying lower make bending the cloud easier?

It won't but Wan won't be able to maintain the cloud for too long so it either breaks or goes lower.

Again, it's not the same as an airspout, there's no logical reason for it to be harder to maintain at fifty feet than at thirty.

It is easier for a helicopter to fly lower than higher, and it is shown that Wan can use fire and water attacks and bend earth while using his nimbus on the ground but he hasn't done that 50 feet up.

Countering Your Revised Strategy

Assuming they travel at 200 feet per second (a conservative estimate), that gives Otto a quarter second to both clear his vision and react. We don't even know if he can clear his vision in that time.

Otto doesn't have to react or completely regain his vision, he just needs to know an attack is coming then the tentacles will do the work.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As you can see he destroys the Punisher without even looking while on the phone. And like I said the winds from his tentacles will slow the water down so he will definitely know that it is coming. Otto even says that they only respond to his subconscious.

No Caption Provided

Otto being able to see and Spidey being poisoned make this a rather unfair comparison. Also, does Spidey under the influence of this particular poison (not a different one, which might have different effects) have travel speed feats better than an arrow? Because he'd need to be significantly beyond that for this to be valid (taking into account Otto being able to see).

This specific poison? No. But Spidey is an easy bullet timer and bullet catcher and was strong enough to sill fight Ock so he should be faster than the arrow.

Considering the sheer speed and mass of these waterblasts, I doubt the wind will slow it down much.

It knocked down trained policemen on their butts, the water blasts may be fast but it's just water which can easily be affected by the wind even bullet shaped cannon balls get affected

No, they were alternating their shots, each individual cut was done by Katara OR Aang, not both.

They were both cutting it, the individual cuts were small. Otto can take one and live.

Other Avatars have hesitated to kill before, yes, but while Wan is a fundamentally good person, he's far more willing to use lethal force than most other Avatars.

Did Wan drown that guy in grass and sting the other guy to death? What the heck! I don't remember watching that. Lol. But Wan was personally affected those guys, while he knows Otto is a villain, Wan does not know him so he may not use deadly force.

But I don't think that's what you meant. If you mean offensively, then he hasn't, but what I meant was that he'd quickly alternate between them to try and force Otto into making a mistake.

Yeah I meant offensively. He can block shots that alternate and Otto never makes mistakes! Jk, but it will be hard for Wan to pressure Otto when his arms can counter everything Wan has and when Wan is predictable (according to your strategy).

Considering how fast Wan's attacks move, I doubt that.

Countered already. But just for the heck of it even if Wan KOs Otto he would set the tentacles to defense mode which will protect Otto till he wakes up (it will mostly try to get away).

No Caption Provided

As you can see if Otto tells them to protect him as he gets KOed they will follow the command tell he gives them another. They only way to beat them is to break them or kill Otto (or to KO Otto while the tentacles have no commands to fulfill), and as I said the steel cuts Aang was making won't kill Otto as they are very small and thus won't slice of any vital organs (plus Otto is physically fit so he won't be as easy to kill as you may think).

Who says it won't? Shattering a human sized boulder a few feet from your body would likely cause shards to go everywhere. From what you said, Otto has normal human durability, so I imagine a high speed fist sized rock to the teeth could cause some damage.

I have shown a scan of Ock blocking a rock already and it didn't hit him,the only ones that stay on target are pebble sized. Otto does have normal human durability but if here were alive in this world he would be as strong as a body builder (he has tanked a direct hit to face from Spidey once and didn't get KOed).

Is this particular version of poisoned Spidey faster than an arrow in travel speed?

You asked this, same answer most probably yes.

Wan will use one of his larger fire attacks to cover himself while he bathes, and his nimbus to create some distance for him to do so. Also, how fast is Ock's travel speed on his arms? Because here's Wan matching serious Vaatu's travel speed:

Posted a scan above, he can cross a block in mere instants. Vaatu is fast but he can cross the battlefield that quick cause he is the size of a small hill.

So now that I have feats for the Spirit Water, is it a stalemate at worst for Wan? Or do you have something else up your sleeve?

Cocoon. If Otto is in trouble he can cocoon himself in his arms. But I have countered a lot of things already that make ut so that Wan will lose stamina and fast and when he tries to run to the water will end up getting snagged after healing Ock, and even if for some reason mist doesn't heal, Otto can still grab Wan either way his physical state does not change the speed of his tentacles which can catch Daredevil.

Final Thoughts

I basically have the same counters to your new strategy but I will add that nothing shows that this will be a quick fight, even if Wan wins he will be exhausted afterwards and earth is easy to smash, and like I said fragments won't hurt Otto, he can cocoon himself if the battle gets too rough and he needs to be killed for Wan to win. Also the spirit water strategy helps Otto more than Wan. That should be all.

Time to open for votes, this was a very enjoyable debate. Also fun fact this is the first completed CaV Doctor Octopus has ever been in not including scenarios or tourneys (I think).

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#29 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: gets my vote, this was an interesting debate, and he had somewhat better counters, but in Mial's case, I wasn't convinced that Wan would be able to stay safe the entire time when he's abusing predictable flight as opposed to raw agility like his most common enemy Spiderman does.

Also I feel like Wan isn't versatile enough with the more powerful elements Wind and Earth to pose a threat to Doc Ock. And that's actually kind of sad considering an Avatar should be a legit master of all elements. Wan is the first Avatar, he doesn't have much to use at his disposal. If this was Aang or Korra, Doc Ock would have to fear versatile uses of earth bending, powerful wind attacks, freezing attacks via water bending, and different ways of using firebending and water bending like whips or close ranged attacks.

Wan is a powerhouse but this fight is like throwing four basic benders with high durability at Doc Ock. It just won't work. Wan isn't versatile enough with his one two combo which Mial was overly reliant on. What would stop Wan from spamming attacks from all elements, in different orders to mix it up forcing Otto to block in different ways each time?

The one-two combo was overly reliant on whether or not Otto would have his vision after blocking the first initial attack. But even then, thats still sketchy, we already saw that he can basically multi-task with his arms, what's stopping him from blocking AND attacking bending attacks at the same time in ways where his vision wouldn't be obscured?

This was an even match, but Mial's strategy is a reflection on Wan's lack of versatility which as a bender is something desperately needed against those outside of the Avatar verse.

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#32 Edited by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: gets my vote, this was an interesting debate, and he had somewhat better counters, but in Mial's case, I wasn't convinced that Wan would be able to stay safe the entire time when he's abusing predictable flight as opposed to raw agility like his most common enemy Spiderman does.

Also I feel like Wan isn't versatile enough with the more powerful elements Wind and Earth to pose a threat to Doc Ock. And that's actually kind of sad considering an Avatar should be a legit master of all elements. Wan is the first Avatar, he doesn't have much to use at his disposal. If this was Aang or Korra, Doc Ock would have to fear versatile uses of earth bending, powerful wind attacks, freezing attacks via water bending, and different ways of using firebending and water bending like whips or close ranged attacks.

Wan is a powerhouse but this fight is like throwing four basic benders with high durability at Doc Ock. It just won't work. Wan isn't versatile enough with his one two combo which Mial was overly reliant on. What would stop Wan from spamming attacks from all elements, in different orders to mix it up forcing Otto to block in different ways each time?

The one-two combo was overly reliant on whether or not Otto would have his vision after blocking the first initial attack. But even then, thats still sketchy, we already saw that he can basically multi-task with his arms, what's stopping him from blocking AND attacking bending attacks at the same time in ways where his vision wouldn't be obscured?

This was an even match, but Mial's strategy is a reflection on Wan's lack of versatility which as a bender is something desperately needed against those outside of the Avatar verse.

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#33 Posted by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

wish the CaV was longer though

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#34 Posted by the_red_viper (12862 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow that was a quick one. I might read through it later although I know next to nothing on either character but I make no promises lol.

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#35 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: @the_red_viper: I think Mial used all of Wan's feats at that point so it could only last that long.

Also TRV, learning about new characters is fun.

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#36 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

2-0 Major Hellstorm as of now.

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#39 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#41 Posted by Amendment50 (15539 posts) - - Show Bio

I will jump in and vote for @major_hellstorm as well, though this was an interesting debate. This CaV reminded me yet again exactly how powerful Wan was; however from the arguments made I feel Otto has far superior defensive options here, and I was more than convinced that the speed and durability of his arms would allow him to block any of Wan's attacks. In a battle that revolves around keeping distance and tagging from mid-range I felt that Ock had a solid advantage, so he gets my vote.

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by Amendment50 (15539 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: You're welcome, but I have to say that you are wrong about one thing, my friend. Doc Ock does not even look remotely as cool as Wan. Wan has the sexy beard going, meanwhile Ock is one of Spiderman's stupidest looking villains

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i mean seriously, I just couldn't let that comment slide in good conscience

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#44 Posted by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Amendment50 (15539 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Tony is a slut and everyone knows it, he's not a good reference for where we should set the bar

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