CaV Deranged Midget (GL) vs CadenceV2 (Invincible) (Votes)

@monsterstomp: Hell of a break down. Thanks for taking the time to read it. as long I can teach some people of Invincible, I am happy :)

@indiecomicsftw Yeah dude, the fight was really close. It both had very few advantages over the other. So it cut so close.

@monsterstomp: Man... that is one heck of a summary! Kudos and I cannot thank you more for taking the time to read this :P It was my first official debate in at least over a year so I felt a little odd at times heh. Again, thanks!

Thanks for the input my friend! Although, the only scans I used that are considered pre-crisis are the ones where the ring's capabilities remain largely unchanged, such as his flight speed via time warp or some cases where Hal and the other GL's were in fact weaker in some manner but it was simply to showcase his will to overcome unbearable odds. In addition, I forgot to correct myself with ION Kyle. I meant to mention that it was Hal who THOUGHT he was facing off against ION Kyle, guess it slipped my mind compiling the rest of my scans :P

Thanks for the input though! :)

This was an excellent read to a fabulously well constructed debate on both sides. Since I've been following it, I haven't to read too much of it today to catch up with the full debate so I'm quickly up to speed. I've only just recently gotten into Invincible but seeing what indie brought to the table had a very interesting look at who Mark is as well as his feats and capabilities. Likewise, I have massive respect for DM so seeing him debate is a real pleasure. For the most part, the back and forth conjecture between these two was brilliant with almost equal quality replies to each other.

Having said that, there are two main areas where each debater fell down. For Indie, it was his lowballing of Wonder Woman with that bridge feat to make Invincible seem comparable to DC powerhouses in physical stats. Consistently Diana has much better strength and speed feats than what Indie showed and Superman's on a whole other level altogether. Lowballing DC powerhouses to suit one's own argument doesn't go down too well in my book for somewhat obvious reasons.

However, @deranged_midget used pre crisis and Elseworld feats in his argument along with misinterpreting the Kyle instance as Nero possessing Kyle and siphoning off Kyle's Ion power from afar. It's a credible feat as Nero has stalemated Kyle before but the misinterpretation hurt his case. I also feel the use of Pre Crisis feats confused his argument as Hal hasn't shown the feats to what he's done Pre Flashpoint in some cases. And including New 52 feats left him open to the obvious criticism that Hal's New 52 constructs aren't as durable as Pre Flashpoint constructs. If he'd stuck with Pre Flashpoint Hal, that would have been better IMO.

On that basis, @indiecomicsftw receives my vote barely as his errors were slightly less than DM's and he did an absolutely amazing job posting not only relevant scans but making critically sound arguments that supported his case and played against DM's counterpoints very well. Despite my comment seeming negative on both sides, this was a great debate and kudos to the both of you.

@lvenger: Hey thanks for the input bud, appreciate it. As I mentioned to dondave earlier, I only used feats which haven't been altered or changed in anyway over the reboots such as willpower and speed feats. In addition, what I utilized in regards to the New 52 feats were merely showing Hal's competence and capability with a weaker, replicated ring and in the majority of the scans, at extremely limited levels of power.

@lvenger: Another nice break down summary.

Also I just want others to know, I in no way mean to Lowball DC characters. The only DC Comics I read are Batman ones. So I was only basing that scan off what I found on Google Images for Wonder Woman Strength Feats, which I typed in cause I seen her break GL constructs.

added to that we have a earth size full blown Planet busting feat done by Invincible, Omni Man, and Thaddeus (A way weaker Viltrumite) that rammed through the Viltrumite Planet. They only needed the core disrupted, which was never explain but seems the core is so dense being the Viltrumite Homeworld that held all the battles for Viltrumite power struggles, so they could fly all the way through and not get caught in the planet explosion.

Gallery

Now I bring this up as even the beloved Superman best strength feats is busting 2 much smaller moons, and War World when he sun dipped. So are the Invincible crew comparable with out intent to low ball? On panel I think so.

Just want to make it clear, it is not intentional. Its just the only Scan I seen of a calculable strength feat :0

I can't pick a winner between you.

@deranged_midget: Ah I didn't see that part of the reply on page 2. My bad. Still, whilst I see why you went for New 52 feats as well, I felt it left you too open to Indie playing up Hal's constructs being broken more easily in relation to his Pre Flashpoint.

@indiecomicsftw Don't worry, I understand it wasn't intentional but Diana has her share of much better strength and striking feats than Mark. Pushing massive spaceships single handedly, punching a nuke without any sign of harm or even fatigue and hauling the moon/planet with help are amongst them. Those are way above her straining to lift a bridge which Superman has also done with ease on multiple occasions. Now as for the other scan you've shown, the biggest criticism here is that it's a joint feat. We don't know how much Omni Man who's still superior to Mark as an adult Viltrumite for now put in or how having the extra Viltrumite on hand helped out. Superman has busted moon sized objects on his own but it's not in his character to fly through the core of planets at MFTL speeds which he can reach. He only went below light speed when hitting the shadow moon and when bloodlusted, has knocked WW from the sun to the Earth which would require a tremendous amount of force, one that I feel beats all of Mark's other feats. So, on that basis, whilst Mark might be on a tier with Superman, he isn't on his level or comparable. Not when feats like that are done on a joint basis.

@lvenger: I actually did not know of punching Diana from sun to earth. Is that from Blood Lusted Mind control Superman vs Wonder Woman? I am assuming thats the one. I meant that Invincible is on Superman tier. Thats the words I was searching for. Not same level in stats, but on his tier.

Thanks for reading the debate man. You and I need one, I do not think I ever faced you in a CaV or Tourney after all this time.

@deranged_midget: @indiecomicsftw: my vote has to go to Deranged_Midget excellent job of showing why Hal is the best GL there is. IDFTW you did a good job and i am convinced Invincible is strong. but against Hal he doest have the Versatility Hal Does. good job on both

Deranged Midget i feel like taking on another mod when you get the chance let me know and lets hash it out

@lvenger: No biggie and I didn't utilize New 52 Hal's feats to support him in terms of power, but to support what he can do with very, very little power. Even now in the current run, he's largely weaker due to the battery being drained and one of his redirected blasts managed to strike him down and surprise him. The examples with Clark and Diana were when he merely tried calming them down, restraining an infuriated Superman and Diana and even demonstrating unrelenting persistence against Darkseid, who dwarfs almost all powerhouses in the DCU at this point.

But thanks for the input my friend! This was an incredible debate and I am ecstatic that IGFTW gave me the opportunity to stretch my legs a bit :D

Stretch your legs :0 You were running a Marathon here!

@indiecomicsftw: Hah, you are too kind my friend! I appreciate the opportunity you gave me though! You put up an absolutely incredible argument!

@indiecomicsftw: Yes it's the one when Maxwell Lord controlled Superman and ended up with Diana killing Lord in that infamous neck snap. During that fight, Superman punches her from the Sun, where he'd just flown her there himself to Earth which is his best striking feat Pre Flashpoint. And no problem, I get that now. As I said, these are only small problems compared to the quality debate you two made which was a pleasure to read. As for CAVs, I'm currently busy atm with university work but in the early January period, I should be free for a few CAVs then. You definitely seem like an excellent debater given your responses to DM and I'd really like to do a CAV with you in the future.

@deranged_midget It was my pleasure my friend and you did an excellent job on your end. I wouldn't nitpick anything of yours unless I really felt I had to since you are one of the Vine's best and most respectable debaters.

Pretty much this, great debate guys.

My character bias clouds my judgement, so I can't make a fair call

@lvenger: And to that, I completely understand and respect that you took the time to toss some advice towards my rusty arse :P I probably should've elaborated a bit more on the terms of my use of specific scans.

@deranged_midget: Hey I've made far worse mistakes than you have on the battle forums DM. Don't sweat it, we all get rusty on the battle forums when we're out of the madness for so long :P

@deranged_midget: Hah! You're rusty!

@god_spawn: I know right! It was definitely a kick in the arse but ICFTW really kicked it up a notch and knocked some sense into me! :P

@deranged_midget: It's ok. I thought I was a bit rusty in my Emma Frost and Psylocke vs Gambit Elektra debate with Kidman last week. I haven't used those characters in a long time lol.

@god_spawn: Yeah, luckily I felt generally comfortable with Hal although a large majority of scans were lost after I backed up my computer and some files failed to transfer, primarily focused around Sinestro Corps Wars to War of the Lanterns :( But aside from Superman, I feel most comfortable with Hal in terms of high tier.

How do you think this went?

I like to know too.

@deranged_midget: @indiecomicsftw: This has to be one of the closest debates I've seen. ICFTW showed me a whole new insane character while DM informed even more on GL. Got to say IndieComicsFTW takes my vote BUT very very close. Good job you two!!

@oreoassassin: Thanks for reading!

C'mon peeps, let's get the votes in!

Tie for me.

Wow I never seen a tie in a CaV. We have 3 so far lol.

@indiecomicsftw: Tie between votes I believe and in regards to users being unable to vote! BLAST MY TERRIBLE DEBATING! :P

@deranged_midget:

DM: 2

ICFTW: 2

To close to Call/Undecided: 4

I think this is current score :0

@indiecomicsftw: This... THIS IS MADNESS!

Bump

I think I'm gonna bump this again, and just gotta say.... what an amazing debate that should be bumped every couple of months to remind people how awesome these two characters are.

Hal's versatility is amazing and he's proven that only a fool would count him out when he has such a track record of causing upsets and beating opponents supposedly stronger than he is. I've always thought that Hal Jordan should be a match for guys like Superman and Black Adam with all the ridiculous things he can do in his comicbook. This may be me but I feel Supes is protected just as much as guys like Batman, and Green Lantern should have at least 1-2 victories over Big Blue considering all he's able to accomplish with his combination of relentlessness and overbearing power. The guys got a toolset that could rival Thor's and is much smarter than Thor is.

What all that said Mark is an absolute monster, and goes into this "Yolo!" state where you may beat him but he's gonna kill you no matter what. It's weird but he goes into a zone where the best you could hope for is a draw because he's not having it and will tank whatever you throw at him just to hurt you far worse. Mark doesn't think he's mentally and physically tougher than his opponents, he KNOWS it and uses it actively in battles. Hal is a brilliant Lantern but I don't see what he could do to put Invincible down. I can't help but see this fight ending any other way but being another grueling war of attrition that Mark edges out because he thrives in close battles like this.

I don't see how Hal could outlast Mark if Invincible decides to "YOLO" choke him to death ala Conquest scan or crush his face while tanking damage. Great debate tho. I've unlike most have read about both of these Titans before this thread so this was extra hard for me to pick and I almost didn't.

Too many scans! I feel so intimidated now...

Thank for the Summary. I am going to look up "Yolo" now lol.

You should be!

I think Midge edged this out a bit. He's right, he is rusty but still has it. Still a good job to Cadence though.

@god_spawn: Wait, ICFTW is CadenceV2?

@wolverine08: Was is it supposed to be a secret?

@god_spawn: Never knew. Lol.

Thanks. I love to see what @deranged_midget on his A Game.

Really? Well, dang.

Best CaV I've seen in a while. I really enjoyed this, even though I thought invinible was heavily out-classed I later found out that was untrue.

Yeah someone learned something about Invincible. :) Glad to see ya again too.

@indiecomicsftw: Haha, his damage soak is extremely high. Higher than I believed.

Probably one of the best debates I've seen on this site.Though I just gotta give it to @deranged_midget. His closing argument pretty much convinced me.

CIN.

@deranged_midget: After tallying up the vote, I think you edged a win :)

DM: 4

ICFTW: 3

To close to Call/Undecided: 4

Nice one guy, you need to debate more often. Thanks for the chance.

dang I forgot bout this, ill read it tommorrow

@cadencev2: You mean, you edged a win if I'm reading that right ;) Well deserved if you ask me! I just had fun jumping in a debate after so long and I thank you again for the opportunity!

@deranged_midget: LOL I was so tired. Edited. Your welcome. You still have it.

this debate was perfect now this debate has tought me i still have a lot to learn great job to both

hey I know im really late, but I finally read this, and I thought it was very good, but I'd vote @cadencev2

ha, tomorrow 17 days later