CaV: Defiant_Will vs. Major Hellstrom | Closed 4 Votes

Yeah I'm voting for @defiant_will. This was definitely an awkward match on both sides. Major made more than a couple questionable points, like his lack of commitment to the lightning feat for Flash or his weird "debunk" that revolved on the power of Genos' blast being reliant on their size. His lack of knowledge on OPM also quite clearly hurt him here, as it shone through in most of his counters of Metal Bats feats. That said, Defiant also could have done a better job in certain areas, like posing a better counter to Darkseid's omega beams and I think he could've have done more to reinforce his scaling given how reliant his case for Metal Bat was on it.

All in all, not an amazing debate, but I think Defiant did a better job arguing for his character than Major did

I'm voting for Gear because while I feel like Darkseid is on Metal Bat's level physically Major didn't do a good enough job representing that. If he was going to double down on the OBs then at least scale them a bit better, for example he gives them hitting and hurting Superman as a feat, but how is catching him impressive? How fast is he? These are things we need to know to get a clearer picture of the attack's power and speed, and I feel Gear did a better job at representing that.

@fullmetalemprah: @maestromage: thank you for voting and for the votes

@supremegeneration: you as well

@professorrespect: after some deliberation, I've decided to count Stalin's vote, making the score

I'm not as organized as everyone else, so I'm going to break this down based off memory, and post scans and quotes from you guys accordingly. BTW to other voters, just in case you don't know, Defiant_Will was formerly known as Gearsecond, so we use his nickname Gear a lot.

Physicals

This was a head scratcher because I didn't agree with a lot of the major feats @defiant_will and @major_hellstrom posted. I'll start with Gear first, and because I am starting with him first, I want to make note before I do, that everything I am about to say could have been easily researched by his opponent.

Gear's best feat that he presented was in relation to Elder Centipede. I have some minor issues with this feat that I'm surprised Major didn't touch or look into. To start, lets go over what you showed to present Centipede and what you showed for Metal Bat specifically. First you mention MB stopping his charge. There is several things wrong with this notion, first, its stated by Metal Bat that EC moved its face to avoid impact, this doesn't seem to be some offhanded comment that he made out of nowhere, and its not contradicted by the facts or any of the translations.

So what this implies in my opinion is that, EC saw MB while he was on the way(BTW there was no indication or prove that he was doing a full charge given the context, especially given the lack of destruction on his part) and slowed down and made a micro-adjustment, defending his face, and even stopping in place. For someone who wasn't even able to block this very same monster's basic strike from a blow from one of his limbs with little to no momentum, I find Metal Bat stopping his full charge with the full weight of his body with no footing very hard to believe. It especially doesn't help your case that it seems MB didn't even make him budge and he simply smacked him away with no opposition.

One other thing I want to make note is that assuming you are right, he did this from the side, not from the front. This may seem very insignificant but I personally think it makes a difference. This implies he didn't match his force or stop his full charge, merely redirected him. To give an analogy, what do you think would happen if you hit a car from the side while it is moving at full speed? Do you think it will stop immediately? Or do you think it would rollout in another direction while maintaining its momentum? I think the latter would happen in most cases, meanwhile if two cars hit each other head on they would both stop each other on a dime. At least that's my understanding of it.

Either two things happened that would make this feat significantly less impressive than you think it is

• EC actually stopped while in the middle of the charge, or at least slowed himself down, all to avoid getting hit in the face. Which is supported by Metal Bat's statement.
• EC maintained his speed(which is very unlikely given the circumstances) while dodging a direct hit. BTW it wasn't proven that this was a full blown charge.

Next, the context surrounding MB hitting him in the face.

Lets pieces together the information we have so far. The combine it with the collage above.

• Elder Centipede, clearly fodderized Metal Bat, at least that's what I gathered from the scans presented
• Metal Bat wasn't even able to noticeably budge EC, plus the context around the feat implies he stopped or slowed down to defend himself. Specifically in the face.
• After the initial impact, Elder Centipede with a basic attack from one of his limbs easily sent MB flying despite him blocking, which realistically would have a significantly lesser amount of force compared to a full blown bullrush with the full weight of his multi-city block sized body.

Now lets talk about what happens when MB attacks his face.

• He doesn't slow him down, or significantly do damage, he merely pisses him off and makes him go notably faster, while causing a significant amount of damage he has never shown up until that specific point. 1+1= 2, so I can only assume you have a very strange perception of this feat.
• He was quite clearly enraged, again I want to make note, in the initial charge he shows he barely causes any destruction, not to the ground, barely to his own surroundings, even after MB hits him. But when he was clearly enraged he causes a clear amount of destruction.

So taking this in mind, I find this feat very shaky. You can twist and turn it in your favor with the right fancy words, but it doesn't seem like Metal Bat was remotely a threat, nor could he match his charge, or overall strength.,

Garou even goes to mention that its a bad matchup, we see Metal Bat get sent flying and briefly knocked down. If it wasn't for his likely stat increase, who's to say if he would have even got back up? But that's just conjecture on my part. Even if Gear decides to pull me to the side and negate all of this.

Overall, this section was in Major's favor, he had the more clear cut feats and didn't have to rely on scaling, and his feats weren't as shaky, but they still were, so I will address them as well. I'll talk about Kabuto while I'm discussing Major's counters and overall thought process.

But Darkseid with one blow knocked down Shazam, Wonder Woman and Superman in one single blow, and it took them around 23 seconds to recover (hit happens at around 3:06 and their second blitz is at around 3:29, check for yourself).

This is worthy of note because just one of those heroes, Superman, no sold a city block wiping attack.

This is absurdly shaky, considering they were recovering from Darkseid's blows much quicker throughout the entire fight. Flash included, who is obviously less durable than Superman. I hate using recovery times to determine how impressive feats like this are unless its for longer than a couple minutes, and the characters are confirmed down for the count because cinematic time is never completely accurate. For all we know that interaction between batman and darkseid lasted 10 seconds or less. We never see them recovering, we get a shot of Cyborg doing his thing, then finally see the JL fighting Darkseid again. We know nothing from this, and I kind of wished you went different avenues to argue his striking power as opposed to this.

You defended your back scaling decently enough, but using recovery times to make his damage output more impressive was unnecessary.

Now lets talk about the 3 minute fight with Kabuto. At first I thought this was pretty explicit. But then I started to understand where Major was coming from. It is waay too vague to come to a conclusion based off those audio books. At most you could say he put up a fight, you cannot claim he was fighting evenly, especially when the system to my understanding prevents you from taking a certain amount of damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPbo9I0DO1g&feature=youtu.be&t=540

The fact that a 3 minute fight was covered in only 20 seconds makes it worse. We get no details whatsoever. However, a lot can happen in 3 minutes so I think its safe to say that he put up a fight.

So that's two feats that can be left up to interpretation. With statements that put Metal Bat above PPP. That makes all of his feats significantly more shaky and hard to take at face value.

Gear managed to defend two of these feats without a single bit of contention, so that reflects poorly on Major. Its funny because Major boasts about not knowing OPM, then was prompted to do research, only for him to not only miss out on an opportunity to contest a feat, but to choose an even worse hill to die on. Like when Major woke up this morning and booted up his computer, he must have realized today was April Fools and it was time to put on his biggest clown act for the world to see it.

You attempted to argue Genos blasts as weaker or varying in power due to its size.

Now if you look at both scans you can see I outlined the size of the blast relative to the characters standing in the same panel, and you can see the panel that shows Genos' mountain blast also shows the blast radius being way bigger relative to the characters compared to the blast used against CK. I acknowledge that CK is probably a big dude, but is the difference in size that big? Further, can we really claim Genos used the same amount of power in both instances, how so? Again, I am making no points here, perhaps I am missing context, but again I am only pointing out what I see based on my opponent's scans and asking questions based on them.

First off, this changes literally nothing, and if you really wanted to go this avenue, if you really wanted to die on this hill, you could have gotten so many other shots from across the series to present your non-existent and borderline stupid point. Also, context matters. Lets pretend for five seconds that his blasts has no potency. Why would he hold back? Also the blast seems bigger too.(Genos is between 5-6 feet, while Kabuto is twice his height and several times his width.) So if anything you could argue Genos used a more powerful blast.....The fact that he uses one hand too could have been part of your argumentation but you didn't even mention that detail based off what I read.

This argument isn't necessarily bad, and that's me being generous, any argument can technically be good if you defend it properly and have a good reason, you literally admit yourself you're making no points here. You obviously are aware potency arguments exist across all media, there was other avenues you could have pursued to boost your argument, but you went based off size which would change nothing given the context and clear circumstances.

I say some silly stuff sometimes, but this takes the cake. There's no reason to doubt the feat, its pretty clear cut, and Kabuto's feat is right after Genos, mountain top vaporizing feat. Its obvious given the one-sided ass beating Genos got it was intended. Genos went all out there.

This is not even a matter of anime vs comics, this was simply a bad argument.

Also, not to be a dick but the topic of speed was so inherently stupid.

Dude..... just freaking argue Darkseid has lightning speed reaction times. Stop backtracking. You have several clips you can use to argue that line of thinking. Darkseid tagged him several times in the movie anyway. You even try to break it down into individual statements, when together they reach a single conclusion:

Darkseid is fast enough to physically move his body to tag someone who has exhibited the reflexes necessary to perceive and react to lightning. You can't backtrack that, you can't act like that's not what you are arguing.

Even then, the example you used to present this case and defend your case is so laughably bad, I'm surprised Gear went for the consistency argument instead of looking for the clip you posted

Skip to 1:22, watch till 1:31. He takes several punches from flash, then Flash stops his onslaught, which allowed Darkseid the breathing room to actually predict his telegraphed blitzes, and capitalize on that. Its still impressive, but not as impressive as you made it sound, and it only adds on to Gear's consistency argument, I'm saying all this because I watched the movie.

Not only was your case relating to flash weak overall, but with what you actually showed, it seemed like you had some semblance of a case anyway, so it made no sense why you back tracked. It doesn't help that its the only scaling you have,(which is ironic because you were criticizing, Gear for his reliance on scaling. ) You mention Superman and Wonderwoman the entire debate but barely show anything for them to help the voters understand why Darkseid is so impressive.

Subsonic Janemba over here really basically said, "Darkseid's speed is impressive because he tagged a lightning timer, but he doesn't have lightning timing reactions, don't get me wrong.....IM NOT WANKING I SWEAR!"

Omega Beams

This is where shit got weird on both ends. I'm not gonna bother trying to find scans or contradict anyone here regarding what was posted here.

Gear claimed a few things I didn't agree with, and that he ultimately ended up not providing proof for.

1. He claimed that Metal Bat's weapon could deflect or defend against Omega Beams, which is unfounded and not based on any actual fact. He hasn't shown that the bat is energy resistant or particularly heat resistant, he didn't provide feats other than some vague statement of him wanting it to be unbreakable, which tells us nothing about its ability to be used as a defense.
2. I do not believe based off what Gear showed that he would immediately decide to deflect the Omega Beams by spinning around. At most he can argue he will attempt to swat it like he did the manhole cover. There is literally no reason why he would immediately think "this is the best way to deflect that move" The weakspot was pretty obvious given its appearance, it wasn't a good example, and I recall there being better ones that he could have highlighted to show Metal Bat's intelligence.
3. And no, he doesn't use it seamlessly against Garou, Garou effortlessly mangles the whole move, only struggling with it due to the sheer strength of it and the fact that they just so happened to be in a corner. If Garou still had space, he would have easily found an opening and capitalize on it, the fact that Garou dismisses the technique immediately after seeing it, then dismantles it despite being put in a corner backs my assertion.

A nitpick I had with Major is how he was doing okay with Omega Beams but didn't abuse that advantage as much as I would have liked. It was his trump card, and he showed Flash and Superman failing to merely outrace it. Flash having to resort to big targets to get rid of it, and Superman getting tagged.

When they were discussing Brutal Tornado, I thought Major was going to highlight how much of a freaking veteran he was, because he pointed out something I never would have thought of, the vulnerability of the technique.

First of all I noticed something, the top of Metal bat's head is open

Also my question was never, can Metal bat spin quickly, it was can Metal Bat do it quick enough? We've seen Darkseid's beams catch up to Supes, so that's a testament to their speed. Meanwhile Metal Bat has to think of spinning after seeing the projectile and then spin in time to block it (if it even can do that).

This was genius, because we already know that Darkseid can control his Omega Beams at will and change their trajectory, so all he had to do was say "with such a huge opening, you can't possibly think this move would be a good counter to Omega Beams" I thought he was going to give an analysis on the following:

• How MB doesn't have eyes on the back of his head
• How Darkseid can alter the trajectory
• How MB is open from the top of his head while's he doing this. And why something like this matters
• Wider swings would leave him open while he's firing the Omega Beam anyway.

It doesn't help that realistically I cannot imagine a seasoned fighter with no additional sensory abilities, and clear blindspots using a technique like this to specifically deflect a projectile that can curve and change its trajectory, that is extremely illogical.

Like I don't know why Gear mentioned this. Brutal Tornado was only being used because Garou kept dodging his hits while landing his own.

Also, flight was on the table and Major didnt abuse that either. It wouldn't take much to motivate Darkseid to fly. Especially if Metal Bat was somehow beating him in CQC.

I honestly don't know who I should vote for

On one hand Gear:

• Had scaling I didn't 100 percent agree with it in the form of Kabuto. It was vague and told me nothing.
• Claimed a stupid move that leaves him extremely open but was a pressure tool was going to be an opening move in response to a projectile move, which only hurt his case IMO as opposed to strengthen it.

While Major

• Failed to establish Superman, Wonderwoman and Green Lantern in a reliable way that would give more credibility to Darkseid being above baseline City Block busting, which would give his opponent advantage, assuming you agree with MB's feats.
• Failed to appropriately establish any semblance of speed outside of Flash, who both got tagged by Darkseid and consistently blitzed him on occasion. This was so unbelievable that not even Major himself believed it and attempted to back track with his own scaling, seeming to not have complete faith in it to some extent. I say this because the only conclusion one can draw from reading his scaling to flash is that he believes Darkseid scales to flash to some capacity, but he's saying that's not the conclusion he was drawing. So he couldn't even get his case straight or provide more examples of Darkseid's speed.
• Failed to truly contest any of Gear's points, and decided to be a clown by ignoring potency, attempting to argue Genos blasts as being inapplicable for scaling in a horrendous way. By size. Not by the fact that Genos was using one hand, not by the fact that Genos was damaged to some extent, nothing else. Size. Failing to keep in mind that CK is twice his size, and several times his width.

Literally the main thing Gear did wrong in my eyes was simply have feats and scaling that didn't fully convince me, but his counters throughout most of the debate defending them was sound. Operating under the assumption that somehow Gear convinced me that his feats are legit, he basically would win this debate. Instead of contesting the feat that could actually be put under scrutiny, he contested the feat that was blatant and on panel with a nonsense argument surrounding the size relative to Genos and the attack he used. He contested the audio books which established to some extent the scaling he was going for. If you failed to contest two out of the three city block scaled feats he mentioned, that means you failed to do much at all.

My vote goes to @defiant_will he didn't try to counter points he had no business trying to counter, he didn't reach for straws, and he at least provided baselines for the characters he was scaling to that added some semblance of credibility to his overall point.

Metal Bat scales over PPP, who scales significantly over fodder Hammerhead who can demolish shot skyscrapers. That alone can be argued to put him where he needs to be, and some of his feats against Garou, also help this point as well.

Gear defended his points more efficiently overall, while Major failed to provide much substance to his stance, only having vague clips of Darkseid fighting everyone at once, even though they are all successfully tagging him, vague feats of him punching the JL, and mentioning their recovery times to argue that his damage output is impressive, and back scaling Superman to a shockwave Darkseid created, that failed to harm superman. (BTW we can barely see any destruction of the buildings, the buildings nearby Superman are pretty intact, so the feat in general is visually unimpressive)

Major wasn't doing much better than Gear as far as feats are concerned.

Glancing at this thread I was really confused. Had OPM characters grown so much in power that they could challenge Darkseid? Had Darkseid become such a jobber that he slipped down to OPM levels? Nope. Just the DCAU.

I vote for @deathhero61. He debunked Metal Gear's physical feats well and effectively countered Darkseid's speed scaling. His general arguments and knowledge on both OPM and DCAU felt more convincing to me as well.

OH shit I forgot to mention. Although this is redundant, Major didn't show any feats to give us an idea that Omega Beams were impressive anyway.

@supremegeneration: Thanks. But just to clarify, you think Metal Bat’s counter to Omega Beams would work?

@defiant_will: @major_hellstrom: After reading this CaV, I've got to say that my opinion is extremely similiar to that of Death. I think this debate was, as a whole, fairly poor given the proficiency of the debaters involved in it. Not only did it take place on a very superficial level, without much regard for the X-factors and fighting styles of either combatant, the arguments made regarding the raw stats and abilities of the characters in question left much to be desired. In that sense, my vote is going to reflect the state of the debate; short and concise. In regards to raw physical power, I think the debate was fairly balanced.

The arguments regarding the Audiobook were pretty bad, with Major attempting to make a point out of how vague it was, but doing so in a, no offense, rather clumsy manner and Gear following suit by getting mad and attempting to debunk the arguments Major made in a way that was incredibly hypocritical given the nature of his own thought process earlier on, as Major pointed out in his last post. On the other hand of this same topic, Major fell waaaay short in his attempted dissection of Genos' feat. Not only does it make 0 sense to scale power based on the size of the blast given the situation, Gear accurately refuted the validity of Major's basic premise by proving his blasts always start out that small.

Gear's attempted debunk of the Darkseid scaling was similiarly misguided; Major clearly wasn't scaling Darkseid above his own direct AP, but the side-effect of his earlier attack, meaning that the issues Gear had were nothing less than utterly moot. Once again, as Major points out(though not as in-depth as he should have, perhaps).

Speed was another section in which I found myself dumbfounded; Major's scaling was nonsensical and completely lacked the baseline component. That being, a conclusion as to how fast Darkseid actually is. When Gear "debunks" the lightning scaling, Major says that wasn't ever his intention and that Darkseid isn't lightning speed, thereby removing the foundation of his argument in favour of Darkseid's superior reaction speed, effectively ruining said argument, which he could've defended.

Finally, the Omega Beams. This...was also, well, rather lacklustre. Not from Major's end, persay, I think he did sufficiently here, presenting feats and addressing arguments, though not to an outstanding extent. It's just that Gear completely fell of his horse here. The argument that Metal Bat would somehow deflect or redirect the beams made absolutely no sense at all because, as Major pointed out, Gear completely failed to prove his weapon even had the necessary potency(durability) to achieve this result. This, coupled with Major's reference to the techniques "weak spots", really sealed the deal, especially in conjunction with the complete lack of energy durability feats posted for Metal Bat.

And that last point, for me, was the most decisive in determining a victor here. While speed definitely went to Gear, strength was an even enough section that I wasn't convinced Metal Bat would be able to overwhelm Darkseid's comparable(albeit likely inferior) raw power faater than Darkseid could activate his Omega Beams, which would end the fight almost instantly based on the arguments presented in that section by both debaters. As such, I'll begrudgingly vote for Major_Hellstrom. It was very close though, to the credit of neither debater.

Oh well, it was still an enjoyable read, especially since Major's debating style is a breath of fresh air compared to what I'm used to in the realm of manga debating. So I'll still give my thanks and applause to both debaters for the effort put in, even if the result was...eh.

@hittheassasin: Thanks

After Reading this whole thing:

I vote for Defiant for the reasons stated by Deathhero. He had the better arguments and overall superior scaling.

Well that was quite the read.

Having only seen the first season of the anime OPM, I was curious to see Metal Bats feats and how powerful he is. I had also never seen the DCAU movie with the JL vs Darkseid fight so that was also interesting.

I feel like Will was more aggressive in his debating style, which can be off-putting to some considering it can be perceived as uncivil. There were some moments where I did feel like Will was being unnecessarily hostile but I get that's his debating style. To his credit I do believe the feats and stats he provided for Metal Bat were more convincing as a whole to the battle here. His final response is what won me over in the end as to who would win the battle.

Major was more laid back with his responses and I enjoyed his formatting, working better. I feel like he accurately expressed his character's capabilities and I his scaling feats didn't need to be overly explained as much due to the familiarity of his character and the JL in general, as opposed to an anime/manga character most people might be aware of.

All in all, my vote goes to Major for the reasons expressed above.

Good read though.

Alright, I generally don't vote CaVs that don't feature comic book characters (animated movies don't count) but I figured what the heck. So if y'all will have me....

I vote for @major_hellstrom:

Both knew their stuff very well and opened strong, but Defiant was a little too snappish in his replies, in lieu of properly understanding the intent of Major's posts. Now of course, there is nothing wrong in a little passion and abruptness. Happens with all of us. But that should not cloud our sense of reason in any capacity. Defiant wasn't biased or anything like that, but I feel he could have understood and thus countered better if he had taken a less heated approach.

My next point is scaling. Simply put, Major did a better job on that front. There was less room for doubt in his logic.

Once again, great job guys. At the end of the day, both of you put in good effort and proved to be knowledgeable of your respective verses.

@major_hellstrom: Ok, so I'm voting for you, because I liked your arguments better and they were clearer and more concise. Also, your scaling was very direct and basic, while Gear relies heavily on scaling from a guy who scales from a guy who has actual feats. I got the impression that you understood both characters a lot better than Gear did his own.

Both did a great job backing up their characters but Ill have to go with Major for this one as I felt his arguments were more convincing and better laid out.

once again great CaV you guys

lol can you actually give a vote though. I voted on your August CaV after all :)

I agree with everything here, btw

@green_tea: @whathappened: Thanks

lol

thanks to everyone who voted (that isn't a troll). Now I know how Vulcan feels with ET lmao.

@major_hellstrom good match, looking forward to seeing what you bring in the future

@defiant_will: Yeah, thanks.

I'm voting for Kelly because his points were better overall. I feel as though most of the people that voted for Gear were a bit too focused on the Flash scaling for wrong reasons, which I found strange seeing as how Gear's scaling chain was, in my opinion, just as bad if not worse. Now to preface the rest of my post, I'll begin by saying that before reading this debate, I don't know or care for the in-depth scaling in either verse as much as others might. I've read some of One Punch Man mainly due to peer pressure, and I stopped watching DCAU films after the noticeable drop in quality. So what you're getting from me is probably the most unbiased opinion in regards to this debate.

First off, Darkseid's most iconic attack, the Omega Beams. I feel as though nearly every one that's read the debate agrees that this will be one of the most troublesome attacks in this fight. Relatively early on in the discussion, Gear admitted that Metal Bat wouldn't be able to avoid the blasts, which already drops Metal Bat's chances of survival. Especially since Metal Bat's supposed "counters" to this attack is... spinning in place? Because Darkseid didn't use this omega beams with Flash was running around Darkseid? And the bat will be able to deflect the attacks because Wonder Woman's bracelets were able to? This train of thought didn't make too much sense to me, to be frank. Not to mention that the potency of the beams seemed to have far exceeded Metal Bat's durability based on what's shown. Add into the fact that as the initial starting distance and ariel advantage and it doesn't seem like Metal Bat could survive the first few moments of the encounter, let alone a fight.

Now let's assume that Metal Bat can close the distance Darkseid can easily keep up with Metal Bat, and Kelly illustrated this rather clearly with the showing of The Flash. Now what confuses me is that Darkseid tagging Flash in this instance is somewhat similar to Metal Bat and Garou. In that encounter, Metal Bat gets "blitzed" a good couple times to the point where Garou was outright laughing at Metal Bat and yet Bat tagging Garou a number of times would mean they're relative in speed? I find the other voter's fixation on the Darkseid's "inconsistent" speed quite odd when considering Metal Bat's scaling is somewhat similar.

On the topic of physicals, though, this was rather boring. However, Kelly did show the problems with the comparatively vague story of the audiobook and that whole scaling chain, and his analysis was enough to cast a good bit of doubt on the matter.

So, overall... Kelly showed Darkseid had the tools and to win, but Gear's answers were shady at best. Plus, the more formal tone that Kelly had was much more pleasant to read.

@sazzmi: I already won but thanks

I think everyone so far has covered most of my points although. Even though voting is over, i think it should have gone to @defiant_will not because he did better than @major_hellstrom, but because he did less bad as I think neither of you debated as good as you're capable of.

Although most has been covered so far, I must say I strongly disagreed with @defiant_will's initial scaling basis. The fodder used at your introductory post are not large building busters, specially considering they're just busting the base of the building and it crumbles on itself due to its own weight. This is important to note given it is part of the very basis that explains how Metal Bat is that much stronger than Darkseid. If the base is wrong, technically, everything else is wrong, but I do take intent into account.

I also think you should level your head. You had the upper hand and control of the pace for most of the debate, why you choose to point fingers at your opponent? Why do you keep disregarding his argument because he initially said he doesn't know the universe that much (even though he came up with good points like Flash running in circles around Darkseid =/= Metal Bat spinning in place or the fact audiobooks are heavily based on interpretation)? That can be easily marked as a form of Ad Hominem, which just turns the whole thing into a fallacious approach. As he said, you've got to chill, he didn't questioned any of your feats besides analysing your train of thought.

I also think the lightning argument and Darkseid, even though it wasn't used explicitly to scale Darkseid's speed to that level, it can be taken like that, and part of a good debate is clarity in speech.

@major_hellstrom Even though I feel you had the better wording between you two, probably I would also fall behind your logic in a few areas, I don't think you did enough to make for a compelling argument. You left much to showcase out and you kept repeating yourself that you were not going to invest energy on it... Then why debate in the first place?

I don't think this was a good debate, it could've been much better. I have more things to say but i'm not looking forward to beat on a dead horse.

EDIT: I can't begin to explain just how much I dislike when debaters address the public in the middle of an argument. You both lose points in my book because of it.

@defiant_will@major_hellstrom I feel like i have to jump on the bandwagon of - You both are better than this.

Gear, your temper got in the way of your arguments waaay too much.

Major - I understand not having time for debates, heck i didn't participate in one for over a year, but you missed sooo many opportunities. Remember way back when when we spoke about how you have to drive your point home to win an argument? Well, you've forgotten to do that here. Basically, you made the mistake that i made when i argued against you 2 years ago.

As far as the battle goes, i believe Major presented a good case for why Omega Beams can take out Metal Bat while Defiant Will forgot to really counter the idea of A - Darkseid flying safely and B - Darkseid blasting MB with multiple beams.

Questions for debaters:

1. Gear - You almost had it, but you seemed to get mad and go on rants about fallacies, also you lacked a bit of focus as to what exactly Metal Bat will do to Darkseid here. If you did those things slightly differently, you would have had this debate. What made you lose your temper?

2. Major - Why didn't you leverage feats from other New 52 movies more? There are some very nice things you could have used.

If it is a tie, i would give sudden death to Major, but i wouldn't count this as a full vote for him tho.

@chimeroid: How did you even see this lol

EDIT: And to answer your question, I didn't feel like I needed to do that and this debate took less than 48 hours, which is really fast.

Actual Final tally:

Votes after voting closed:

+1 sudden death vote.

Total number of votes: 17

Very randomly opened Comic Vine. The work-from-home thing is great, but very distracting :) I have been focusing on my career for the last year and doing really well with it, but that meant i had no time for myself. Apparently, when you work from home, you can open CV and gmail at the same time :)

Ah well that's good to hear. It's good to leave the word of the intervet to focus on real life stuff every so often.

Although, I never imaged this many users, especially respectable ones, would be reading this quickie debate, lol.

There is a bit of a twist of fate there as it was by pure chance that i logged in and saw the post on the first page.