CaV: Defiant_Will vs. Major Hellstrom | Closed 4 Votes

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Cause of the quarantine I've come back into the CaV game, and who else is a better opponent for me to face than Defiant Will? In this CaV it will be a battle of attrition, as two universes collide, it will be OPM vs DCAU, Metal Bat vs Darkseid!

Metal Bat (Defiant Will)
Metal Bat (Defiant Will)

V.S.

Darkseid (Major Hellstrom)
Darkseid (Major Hellstrom)

Rules:

  • Composite Metal Bat
  • New 52 DCAU Darkseid
  • In-character but determined to win
  • Fight to KO/incap/death
  • No prep, random encounter
  • No BFR
  • Standard gear and abilities
  • Start 150 feet apart

Battle Location:

No Caption Provided

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#3 defiant_will  Online
"Demon or Dragon, whatever. Bring it on!"

S-Class Hero - Metal Bat

When establishing the power level of Metal Bat, I figured a good place to start would be to detail his overall standing within the OPM verse. Saitama notwithstanding, Metal Bat is actually pretty high up the One Punch Man power hierarchy, a status that should allow him to compete with Darkseid physically.

A random member from the Hammerhead group one shotted a skyscraper with his Battlesuit:

One Punch Man: Chapter 12
One Punch Man: Chapter 12

It was later stated that Puri Puri Prisoner was stronger than these same skyscraper-one shotting battlesuits. Puri Puri Prisoner being the same guy that admitted to being the weakest of the S-Class, despite his training (note that he trained after the battlesuit comparison, meaning he scales further beyond large building busting):

One Punch Man: Chapter 105
One Punch Man: Chapter 105

The gap between the rest of S-Class and PPP is so large that he is but an "average person" in comparison. The guy massively superior to large building busters is "average" to the rest of S-Class. That is fairly explicit scaling for Metal Bat's strength tier, further supported by his own showings. Before I get into said showings, I feel like now is a good time to reveal Metal Bat's ace in the hole: his own fighting spirit. This may not seem like much on paper, but Metal Bat's own fighting spirit actually makes him more powerful as he takes damage:

One Punch Man: Chapter 58
One Punch Man: Chapter 58

That begs the question: how strong is Metal Bat to begin with? This question has been quite concretely answered by the canon audiobooks accompanying the main storyline. Metal Bat uses the Virtual Genocide System (VGS) to simulate a battle between the user and a monster based on data stored within. The result? Metal Bat fights against Carnage Kabuto for 3 WHOLE MINUTES. This may not seem impressive, but it actually is when you look at the context. In that same audiobook, G4 Genos was one shotted by Kabuto. The same Genos who, in a far weaker form, didn't take any damage from the shockwave of a jobbing Saitama that ravaged a cliffside:

One Punch Man: Chapter 17
One Punch Man: Chapter 17

Kabuto himself could overpower Genos' energy blasts with his breath alone. These same energy blasts blew through a chunk of two mountain tops. Needless to say, Kabuto is a physical powerhouse and Metal Bat lasted three whole minutes against him. That becomes even more impressive when the VGS didn't take Metal Bat's fighting spirit into account. Metal Bat himself notes that with his fighting spirit, he could've done way better against Kabuto. So even completely disregarding Metal Bat's fighting spirit, he can go blow for blow with someone like Kabuto for 3 minutes.

===================================================================================

This opener was just meant to set a baseline as to how powerful Metal Bat is. In my next posts, I will go more in depth as to Metal Bat's physical capabilities as well as the in battle implications of his own fighting spirit.

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#4 defiant_will  Online
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#5 defiant_will  Online
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Demons......dragons, heroes. You're facing a new god now.

No Caption Provided

Darkseid

Everyone knows who this guy is, or they should if their on a Comic Book website, so like my opponent I shall jump right into the debate. Now, for my operner I won't be countering anything my opponent presented, instead I will provide an overview of Darkseid's abilities, I will stick to more visual feats for now as opposed to scaling right off the bat. Oh and for future reference, the DCAU movies are in one interconnected series, so I can scale from other films as well if need be.

Physical Prowess

First things first, let's get this out of the way, while Darkseid is mainly a brick in basically every incarnation, I do believe that he should have the speed needed in order to be an active combatant in this contest. So I will be staring off by showing off his speed feats to establish this point first.

Starting with the basics is combat speed, while Darkseid is far from a speedster he is able to tango with super beings with relative ease. Wonder Woman for example, despite being the smaller and more mobile fighter, is still dodged by Darkseid.

No Caption Provided

Shazam is similarly dodged and countered by Darkseid in combat.

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Lastly in terms of pure combat speed, here is Darkseid fighting off Superman, Green Lantern, Shazam and Batman, reacting to Superman's bullrush attempt in the process.

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Here is another example of Darkseid's speed, first Darkseid is seen chasing Flash in ridiculous fashion (actually gaining on Barry) before Shazam intervenes, and as a testament to Darkseid's reaction speed he is able to react to Shazam mid bullrush.

No Caption Provided

It is also worthy to note that while the heroes of this film attempt to bullrush Darkseid a numerous amount of times, Darkseid is similarly able to bullrush them. As Wonder Woman can attest to first hand. This also doubles as a strength feat.

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My final note on Darkseid's speed would be this infamous GIF where he catches Flash in slow mo after leaping away from Flash's running strike.

No Caption Provided

Moving on, we have Darkseid's strength and durability. Since there are going to be plenty of feats of Darkseid knocking around heroes, I'll just post the few visual feats he has. First up, here he is nuking a city block with one smash of his fists.

No Caption Provided

There's also the time where he pounds Cyborg and then tosses him through an absurd amount of concrete with ease.

No Caption Provided

Here's another example of his strength, where by flexing his muscles he is able to create an air blast powerful enough to knock back Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Cyborg and Shazam.

No Caption Provided

Also, in terms of durability he is able to tank being punched through a collapsing building

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Also he no sells a lantern construct train going at him at full speed.

No Caption Provided

And he no sells missiles from jet planes.

No Caption Provided

So that should be enough for an opener, I will expound upon the needed stats when needed, I'm sure I'll need to gather feats for the League members to show their might, but for this post I'll allow Darkseid's feats to speak for themselves.

Other Powers:

So first of all, Darkseid can fly, he used this ability to get behind Green Lantern to deliver a menacing blow.

No Caption Provided

Now flight isn't exactly a unique ability, but for a tank it is. Also when you can fly and your opponent can't, it opens up a whole new world of strategy and advantages, assuming Metal Bat can't fly like a bat.

Anyway his next power is obvious, Omega Beams. In the comics they are the most OP ability he has, but they are more tame in film. First up is the tangibles, here Darkseid is destroying military jet planes with ease with his Omega Beams.

No Caption Provided

Also here he is casually causing mass destruction to part of the city with his Omega Beams

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Lastly, their beast feat. Catching up to and taking down Supes in one blast.

No Caption Provided

There's not that much to say here, but the fact that poking both of Darkseid's eyes out was crucial to the Justice League's plans says a lot.

With that I conclude my post, but I will say this, you better have something better than lasting 3 w h o l e minutes with a monster if you hope to tango with Darkseid. Cause trust me, this pounding will last a whole lot longer than 3 minutes.

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#9 defiant_will  Online

Rebuttal | The Power of Fighting Spirit

No Caption Provided

I have to say that your opener disappointed me in some aspects. I know you hate scaling, but the feats you showed for Darkseid independent of said scaling fall very short of the feats presented for Metal Bat. F or example, in strength, you literally only presented city block level feats and still had the audacity to make this claim at the end of your opener:

With that I conclude my post, but I will say this, you better have something better than lasting 3 w h o l e minutes with a monster if you hope to tango with Darkseid. Cause trust me, this pounding will last a whole lot longer than 3 minutes.

I'm the one that has to show better feats? The guy so strong that a hero far stronger than skyscraper-oneshotters seems "average" in comparison? The guy so strong that without his own fighting spirit power, he can still last against Carnage Kabuto for 3 minutes? On that note, I don't understand your "counter" to that. I've already shown that Kabuto can overpower city block level blasts from Genos with his breath. He can one shot a version of Genos far more powerful than the version that face tanked a hill ravaging shockwave. Darkseid doesn't even begin to compare to this based on the feats you presented, so your comparison to Kabuto is completely unfounded in the first place.

You then provide speed feats for Darkseid, which isn't relevant in the slightest. Metal Bat is no speedster, but he isn't slow by any stretch. He is fast enough to react to and block a surprise attack from Garou:

One Punch Man: Chapter 58
One Punch Man: Chapter 58

Garou is pretty fast, even at this point in the story:

  1. Garou blitzes off the arm of a Hero at FTE speeds
  2. Garou casually bobs and weaves through ricocheting bullet speed projectiles in an alley way
  3. Garou dodges a surprise attack from Spring Mustachio. While his clothes were sliced off, Garou himself received no injuries from the attack, which is impressive because his mobility was impaired due to being shot in the leg prior. Garou then tags Spring Mustachio before he can react, oneshotting him.
    1. Spring Mustachio himself is fast enough to deflect Kombu Infinity's tentacle attack. These tentacles are fast enough to casually swat away supersonic projectiles

Unless Darkseid has more to show, I don't see his speed being too much of a factor. In durability, you showed Wonder Woman punching Darkseid through a collapsing building. Which, needless to say, is literally nothing. The Hammerhead Battlesuits alone can oneshot skyscrapers, so this feat isn't at all enough to compete.

The abilities you showed for Darkseid aren't game changing either. Flight isn't something Darkseid abuses for maneuverability and only resorts to using it for blitz attempts, something that shouldn't work here. The Omega Beams could prove troublesome, but it's not like Metal Bat is without his counters. Metal Bat's "Brutal Tornado" could be helpful in deflecting the energy blast or throwing off its trajectory:

One Punch Man: Chapter 58
One Punch Man: Chapter 58

===================================================================================

Now that I've addressed your arguments, I'd like to elaborate on what Metal Bat brings to the table. Without his fighting spirit, Metal Bat is still superior to Darkseid physically from what you've shown. Taking his fighting spirit into account, the gap only increases:

After taking damage from Senior Centipede and even hitting himself repeatedly, Metal Bat's striking power went off the charts. He was able to counter Elder Centipede's full speed charge with his attack, even pushing him into the ground.

One Punch Man: Chapter 56
One Punch Man: Chapter 56

Elder Centipede's attack power is not to be underestimated. He ravages city blocks in a fit of rage. However, he isn't straight up charging at a single opponent, rather erratically attacking. As such, his power here shouldn't be as powerful as his charge against Metal Bat.

One Punch Man: Chapter 57
One Punch Man: Chapter 57

In terms of endurance, that's Metal Bat's specialty. He continues to get stronger throughout fights as he takes damage. Absurd amounts of blood loss and fractured bones aren't enough to stop his fighting spirit:

One Punch Man: Chapter 58
One Punch Man: Chapter 58

At this point, there should be a pretty clear takeaway. Metal Bat is already superior to Darkseid physically. As Darkseid deals damage to Metal Bat, this gap will only widen until Darkseid eventually has no chance at winning. So I do hope you have more to show for Darkseid.

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#10 defiant_will  Online
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Oooooof that reminds me to reread the godly fight between Garou vs Metal Bat. Thanks my man.

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@defiant_will:

You dare challenge Darkseid!
You dare challenge Darkseid!

Round 2: Counters

Well, well, I must say that post was not half bad. However you have made one error, that being I wasn't making any arguments yet, not quite, I stated I wasn't making counters yet either. So what you've been countering was my overview, but this is the main course. Now I must say to both voters and opponent that I'm not out here claiming that Darkseid is better than Metal Bat in every single stat, cause that would be tedious and would only go to show that my character was too strong for this battle, instead I will acknowledge the prowess of my opponent's character and deal with him accordingly.

Point 1: Darkseid's Fury

This point will deal with all the physical stats dealing with this fight. So for starters you brought up Metal Bat's speed, which is nice, but just to further cement my point here we have Darkseid once again casually reacting to the Flash with a backhand.

No Caption Provided

Flash in this universe is famously fast enough to slow mo lightning.

Loading Video...

What's my point? Mainly that in the realm of speed, Darkseid should comfortably be able to keep pace with Metal Bat, I would even go as far as to say that Darkseid has the superior reaction time but that's neither here nor there. It's not like reaction time will win me this fight, but still it's a good advantage to have in any fight. Also take note of how my opponent concedes that Metal Bat is not a speedster, which will be important later on.

Moving on to what matters more, strength.....or rather scaling and strength. So from my point of view, and correct me if I'm wrong, my opponent points to two feats of strength for Metal Bat, 1. Lasting against Carnage Kabuto for 3 minutes. 2. Knocking out an Elder Centipede, a monster which could trash a city block's surface.

I'll first address the first feat, as my opponent leans more heavily towards it.

So first of all, scaling issues. Scaling is not perfect, everyone acknowledges that to an extent, while scaling is useful it does need to be said that you cannot perfectly scale feats in a 1 to 1 ratio. However, my opponent seemingly disagrees, or rather it is implied through his language and manner of speaking. I will now point out why but before I do I want to make it clear that I am by no means an expert on OPM, rather I am simply assessing the data provided to me by my opponent himself and as such I shall refrain from making points, instead I will be asking questions. So without further adieu, my issues with my opponent's use of scaling.

For reference here are my opponent's statements on the whole 3 minute feat.

That begs the question: how strong is Metal Bat to begin with? This question has been quite concretely answered by the canon audiobooks accompanying the main storyline. Metal Bat uses the Virtual Genocide System (VGS) to simulate a battle between the user and a monster based on data stored within. The result? Metal Bat fights against Carnage Kabuto for 3 WHOLE MINUTES. This may not seem impressive, but it actually is when you look at the context. In that same audiobook, G4 Genos was one shotted by Kabuto. The same Genos who, in a far weaker form, didn't take any damage from the shockwave of a jobbing Saitama that ravaged a cliffside:

Kabuto himself could overpower Genos' energy blasts with his breath alone. These same energy blasts blew through a chunk of two mountain tops. Needless to say, Kabuto is a physical powerhouse and Metal Bat lasted three whole minutes against him. That becomes even more impressive when the VGS didn't take Metal Bat's fighting spirit into account. Metal Bat himself notes that with his fighting spirit, he could've done way better against Kabuto. So even completely disregarding Metal Bat's fighting spirit, he can go blow for blow with someone like Kabuto for 3 minutes.

Problem A: Man cannot live with breath alone

First question I must ask, to the voters and my opponent, is the question of how strong Genos' blasts are usually? What I am talking about is this quote "Kabuto himself could overpower Genos' energy blasts with his breath alone. These same energy blasts blew through a chunk of two mountain tops."Because as someone who relatively new to the verse I can only judge based on what I see, and here is what I see when I click the links to see the feats.

First up we have Genos blowing through mountain tops.

No Caption Provided

And here is CK blowing back his blasts.

No Caption Provided

Now if you look at both scans you can see I outlined the size of the blast relative to the characters standing in the same panel, and you can see the panel that shows Genos' mountain blast also shows the blast radius being way bigger relative to the characters compared to the blast used against CK. I acknowledge that CK is probably a big dude, but is the difference in size that big? Further, can we really claim Genos used the same amount of power in both instances, how so? Again, I am making no points here, perhaps I am missing context, but again I am only pointing out what I see based on my opponent's scans and asking questions based on them.

Point B: Audiobooks?

Alright, I have to admit seeing an audio book used for feats was cool and unexpected, but still I have to point out how it is dubious at best. Why? Because we have no idea what actually happened. But we do get to hear what happens and let me paint you a picture of what I hear

First we hear a guy (presumably Metal Bat) screaming "Ora!" before we hear a good thud is heard, then he says "Ora ora!" before another thud is heard. Then the other heroes watching are heard commenting "It's a frontal assault" followed by "What a magnificent swing!" then Genos comments on how Metal Bat is an S-class for being hard to finish, after this we hear CK scream "YEAH" before hearing the disgusting sound of flesh being torn, after that we hear CK laugh as he calls Metal Bat stupid. Also it's worth nothing we hear the sound of metal clanging almost the whole time.

So it sounds like Metal Bat was destroyed in one clean shot. At least that's how I hear it, to me I hear Metal Bat smacking CK once or twice then someone blitzing, either Metal Bat blitzes or CK does and Metal Bat is blocking (hence the clanging) then CK punches him once and wins, CK laughs showing it was not an even fight, he then insults Metal Bat showing he is not afraid or concerned in the slightest.

But maybe you interpret it differently, even if you did we have two facts 1. No one can definitively say what happened. 2. No what what happened CK was unfazed and absolutely dominated at the end. Also there are tons of examples of weak guys lasting against characters above their tier, without tangible feats it proves almost nothing (and since your fight took place in an audiobook tangible is impossible). I mean didn't Mumen Rider's fight with the Deep Sea King last 3 minutes in the anime? I am not saying Metal Bat vs CK was at the same level, I am merely questioning the validity of leaning on a feat based on the length of the battle alone, I mean it would make sense if the battle was 15 days long but a 3 minute audio battle isn't the strongest point of evidence, but hey that's just me.

Mini Point C: Words Have power, or Do They?

This point is rather inconsequential compared to my other ones but when I looked for a transcript for the video, I found this back and forth

Genos: Sensei is far more powerful today than he was yesterday… is that even possible?

S: It’s just unreliable simulated data right?

Genos: No but-

S: GENOS!

Genos: Yes!?

Serious Saitama: It doesn’t matter how strong you become in the virtual world, it will never change who you are in real life. I learned this lesson the hard way as a kid when I was so obsessed with leveling up in an RPG I missed my entire summer holiday.

Saitama is basically discrediting the system entirely (audiobook version). I only mention this because my opponent notes that "Metal Bat himself notes that with his fighting spirit, he could've done way better against Kabuto." so my question is, is Metal Bat an authority on this particular battle simulation system? Cause it could just be that Metal Bat is embarrassed that he lost and had his ace power overwhelmed so easily, but again that's not a statement or my personal belief, it is just a possibility I am asking the validity of.

Moving on, I will now move on to point 2, the centipede point. And don't worry I won't attempt to dissect the feat, unlike the audio book one it seems cut and dry, so in your Elder Centipede feat you say Metal Bat took down a being that was destroying a city block (on the surface level), and that's pretty cool. But Darkseid with one blow knocked down Shazam, Wonder Woman and Superman in one single blow, and it took them around 23 seconds to recover (hit happens at around 3:06 and their second blitz is at around 3:29, check for yourself).

No Caption Provided

This is worthy of note because just one of those heroes, Superman, no sold a city block wiping attack.

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Flash even uses Superman as a shield in this attack cause he is just that stable, watch the video (it's linked to the time of the strike) it shows just how unscathed Supes was. And that's just one of the guys Darkseid was trashing. Also remember when Darkseid one shot GL's shield?

No Caption Provided

Well the bubble version took a pounding from Supes across the city.

Loading Video...

Also withstood multiple blows from Doomsday before breaking.

Loading Video...

Point 2: The Dark Side of Fighting Spirit

This is a smaller point, but I wanted to point how how just like Metal Bat Darkseid endures.

Over the course of this battle Darkseid gets his eyes pierced multiple times.

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His other eye is stabbed by the Flash who leaves in the crowbar used for Shazam to use as a lightning rod.

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Plus Darkseid takes combined team assaults many times, here is an example.

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And even after all that the League have no idea how to beat the guy, listen to the opening lines of this video by GL. (Link in case vid is busted)

Loading Video...

You can hear GL angrily asking what the JL can even do to stop him, too which Cyborg says that the only option is BFR. At this point of the fight Darkseid is so gassed that Supes is able to match him briefly after catching him off guard, although Supes was out of the fight for a while due to the Omega Beams at the start so he was a fresh man. In stark contrast to the start of the battle when Darkseid tossed Supes aside like trash.

No Caption Provided

Yet despite this Darkseid still endures and can only be barely beaten via BFR, if that isn't a statement on endurance then I don't know what is. Also just to note, Superman is strong enough to push a massive gorge into a giant sea monster (familiar sounding in a way eh?).

No Caption Provided

Point 3: The Omega Effect

The last point I want to make is the Omega Beams, my ace, my homerun attack. Why? Because of the following reasons:

  • The starting distance is advantageous as long ranged attacks is viable for an opening move.
  • By my opponent's own admission Metal Bat is no speedster, so how is he going to avoid the beams? Even Superman failed to.
  • Metal Bat has no feats of energy durability presented thus far.
  • How does the spinning attack counter the Omega Beams exactly? My opponent might have gotten the idea from Green Lantern but if you look at the scene GL isn't spinning like a madman, he blocks Darkseid's blasts with a shield that allows the Omega Beams to flow through it in a spiral before redirecting the attack. Also GL is an energy manipulator.
  • Even if the spinning attack somehow works, without basic knowledge why would Metal Bat just start spinning? And could he even react in time? Darkseid just needs to think to unleash his Omega Beams meanwhile Metal Bat needs to spin his body, also it is not as if my opponent argued for any speed advantage whatsoever.

I want to remind everyone that the beams one shot Superman

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Same dude who literally just no sold a city block wiping attack

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Those two events happened in a sequence, so again how is Metal Bat tanking or dealing with this? Any energy durability feats to share? For both Metal Bat and his weapon since Darkseid might as well just break it if it doesn't have feats. Even if Metal Bat takes one shot, how will he close the distance? Does he even have ranged attacks to mount a counterattack? Cause let me tell you if Darkseid sees the Omega Beams work, he would just hover above and spam them till Metal Bat is melted bat. Making the rest of the debate void.

Summary:

To surmise this post briefly:

  • I question the best feats you've presented
  • I showed Darkseid trashing Superman who no sold Darkseid's city block wiping attack
  • I showed Darkseid reacting to the Flash who can see lightning in slow mo
  • I showed that Darkseid can also take a beating if need be
  • I questioned the ability of Metal Bat to even survive an Omega Beam assault

Anyway this should suffice for now, depending on how my opponent counters my claims and questions I may have more feats to show and contextualize.

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#16 defiant_will  Online

Rebuttal | Filling the Bases Up

No Caption Provided

Where do I begin?

Alright so my opponent took an interesting approach with his counter. He attempted to call Metal Bat's feats into question despite himself having little to no knowledge on the OPM verse. Such a tactic has gotten Major into hot water in one of his most recent debates, so I didn't expect that from him. In regards to defending Darkseid, he presented some nice showings, even if his overall argumentation was flawed. Seeing as how Darkseid's scaling could prove troublesome if I let it slide, I will address that first:

Taking out the New God

Speed

I'm going to be blunt. Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scale that to lightning speed reactions is a blatantly disingenuous take:

This point will deal with all the physical stats dealing with this fight. So for starters you brought up Metal Bat's speed, which is nice, but just to further cement my point here we have Darkseid once again casually reacting to the Flash with a backhand.

Flash in this universe is famously fast enough to slow mo lightning.

Really Major? Really? To masquerade such showings as consistent is beyond dishonest. The fact that immediately after Darkseid "casually" reacted to the Flash, he was then blitzed several times afterward, should raise a red flag for you:

No Caption Provided

Later on, he couldn't keep track of Barry as he literally ran circles around him before hitting him two times in the face and running away. Flash quite literally pulled the textbook definition of a hit and run, which should not happen to someone who, as you said, can "casually react" to the Flash:

No Caption Provided

What's my point? Mainly that in the realm of speed, Darkseid should comfortably be able to keep pace with Metal Bat, I would even go as far as to say that Darkseid has the superior reaction time but that's neither here nor there.

It's not like reaction time will win me this fight, but still it's a good advantage to have in any fight. Also take note of how my opponent concedes that Metal Bat is not a speedster, which will be important later on.

On top of Darkseid flat out not having superior reaction speed, as you said, that is hardly applicable in this fight.

Strength

But Darkseid with one blow knocked down Shazam, Wonder Woman and Superman in one single blow, and it took them around 23 seconds to recover (hit happens at around 3:06 and their second blitz is at around 3:29, check for yourself).

This is worthy of note because just one of those heroes, Superman, no sold a city block wiping attack.

So Darkseid knocking back Superman is impressive because Superman previously no sold his city block busting attack? In other words, you are scaling this one punch from Darkseid who had two eyes popped out among other injuriesabove his two armed, energy enhanced attack that he used while in top physical condition?

For someone who takes so many issues with scaling, this doesn't bring any red flags for you? I mean you are literally scaling Darkseid above himself, in a fallacious manner no less.

Even if I completely disregarded this horrible line of scaling, Metal Bat himself is still superior. Harming characters city block level characters? Remember the comparatively average Puri Puri Prisoner? Well he oneshotted this Demon Level Threat after his training. Said monster was stated to be as powerful as Deep Sea King. Just how powerful is the Deep Sea King? Powerful to take this city block level attack from Genos. As can be seen, Puri Puri Prisoner is comparable to Darkseid physically. In fact, he takes it a step further in actually oneshotting (as in punching him to bits) the character that can no sell a city block buster.

And to make sure we are on the same page, Puri Puri Prisoner is but a average person to Metal Bat.

Also remember when Darkseid one shot GL's shield?

Well the bubble version took a pounding from Supes across the city.

This... isn't impressive. No buildings were anywhere close to being destroyed in that entire sequence. That alone should tell you how out of place the feat is in this tier.

Also withstood multiple blows from Doomsday before breaking.

You are going to have to give me feats for Doomsday because the shockwave Doomsday created is one that you can't even argue at large building busting (the level at which the Hammerhead Battlesuits are at).

Endurance

I will admit that Darkseid has monstrous endurance. The difference is that he doesn't gain anything here. In a war of attrition, Metal Bat will always come out on top. Metal Bat will be getting stronger while Darkseid... won't. You touch on this yourself when noting how fatigue affects Darkseid's fighting ability:

At this point of the fight Darkseid is so gassed that Supes is able to match him briefly after catching him off guard, although Supes was out of the fight for a while due to the Omega Beams at the start so he was a fresh man. In stark contrast to the start of the battle when Darkseid tossed Supes aside like trash.

This simply isn't the case for Metal Bat. With more damage, his attack power, speed, and durability increases. It increased to the point that by the fight's climax, one attack from Metal Bat would've put Garou down. I'd also like to note the contrast in Garou's mentality. At the beginning of the fight, Garou was taunting and toying with Metal Bat. However, by the end, it was clear that Garou was taking him far more seriously.

Also just to note, Superman is strong enough to push a massive gorge into a giant sea monster (familiar sounding in a way eh?).

I don't get how that is familiar. Please elaborate because that looks visually unimpressive compared to one shotting skyscrapers.

Omega Beams

By my opponent's own admission Metal Bat is no speedster, so how is he going to avoid the beams? Even Superman failed to.

If you are going to strawman me, at least make it convincing. I literally never said that Metal Bar would avoid these beams. My plan against the beams was quite obvious, but I will explain it again below:

How does the spinning attack counter the Omega Beams exactly? My opponent might have gotten the idea from Green Lantern but if you look at the scene GL isn't spinning like a madman, he blocks Darkseid's blasts with a shield that allows the Omega Beams to flow through it in a spiral before redirecting the attack. Also GL is an energy manipulator.

I didn't even reference Green Lantern, so you wasted your time bringing him up. I'd like to go back to the Flash scene I posted. Notice that as Flash is running around Darkseid at high speeds, Darkseid can't use his Omega Beams. That is because the tracking is linear. In other words, the Omega Beams can't curve in a circular fashion, but rather changes directions via aiming in a straight line in another direction. I'm not pulling this from nowhere, either. This is quite consistent:

  1. Against Jets
  2. Against Superman and Flash
  3. Against City

I'm not arguing that merely spinning around makes the Omega Beams useless. However, Metal Bat's Brutal Tornado pretty much will. Metal Bat is spinning around at high speeds while extending his bat outward, meaning that the Omega Beams would have to somehow get around the bat's rotational movement and tag Metal Bat's actual body. The beams do not have this level of maneuverability in flight.

Another thing that I'd like to note is that it is not at all far fetched to say that Metal Bat can straight up disperse the Omega Beams. Wonder Woman did so:

No Caption Provided

And I think we can agree that Metal Bat dwarfs Wonder Woman in physical strength. That and his own Bat was designed to be unbreakable.

Even if the spinning attack somehow works, without basic knowledge why would Metal Bat just start spinning?

Metal Bat doesn't need basic knowledge to use an attack that should logically work against projectiles. It is literally the only move in his arsenal that doesn't involve swinging for the hills. Metal Bat's ability to think on his feet lends more credence to this, like when he immediately figured out Elder Centipede's weakspot.

And could he even react in time? Darkseid just needs to think to unleash his Omega Beams meanwhile Metal Bat needs to spin his body, also it is not as if my opponent argued for any speed advantage whatsoever.

This attack doesn't have some long start up window or anything, so I don't see why you asked this. I mean he used it seamlessly in CQC with Garou. And Metal Bat reacting to Garou's surprise attack is enough to block an attack that even Wonder Woman could react to. And Metal Bat doesn't need a speed advantage to react to Omega Beams. Unless Wonder Woman is faster than Darkseid.

Even if Metal Bat takes one shot, how will he close the distance?

He can close in on opponents while using Brutal Tornado.

The takeaway here is that Darkseid still seems to be the weakest here. Speed wise, there is no way to get around Darkseid's inconsistency in "casually reacting" to the Flash. The best you could show for Darkseid was literally scaling his weakened self above his uninjured self. You make a point in describing the physical difference between these two versions, so this scaling should scream inconsistency. You shouldn't try to argue for endurance against a dude who literally gets stronger with each blow dealt to him. I am also not going to forget that you didn't mention any durability feats for Darkseid that would allow him to tank hits from Metal Bat. Lastly, the Omega Beams won't work as the Brutal Tornado can throw off their trajectory or they can just straight up be dispersed like with Wonder Woman.

Hitting the Final Pitch

Before I get into this, I want to clarify that this-

Moving on, I will now move on to point 2, the centipede point. And don't worry I won't attempt to dissect the feat, unlike the audio book one it seems cut and dry, so in your Elder Centipede feat you say Metal Bat took down a being that was destroying a city block (on the surface level), and that's pretty cool.

-is inaccurate. Like completely inaccurate. Elder Centipede destroyed far more than just a city block area, and destroyed far more than what Darkseid did against the Justice League.

Oh lord. Now we get to your attempted "debunk" of Metal Bat's scaling. This should be... interesting:

Moving on to what matters more, strength.....or rather scaling and strength. So from my point of view, and correct me if I'm wrong, my opponent points to two feats of strength for Metal Bat, 1. Lasting against Carnage Kabuto for 3 minutes. 2. Knocking out an Elder Centipede, a monster which could trash a city block's surface.

And being so strong that large building + characters are considered "average" in comparison. But go on

I'll first address the first feat, as my opponent leans more heavily towards it.

So first of all, scaling issues. Scaling is not perfect, everyone acknowledges that to an extent, while scaling is useful it does need to be said that you cannot perfectly scale feats in a 1 to 1 ratio.

It's interesting that you of all people take such a conservative stance on scaling since the scaling you've used is so convoluted, as I've pointed out. But go on

However, my opponent seemingly disagrees, or rather it is implied through his language and manner of speaking.

Wait, when did I mention 1 to 1 ratios of scaling? Stop putting words in my mouth.

I will now point out why but before I do I want to make it clear that I am by no means an expert on OPM, rather I am simply assessing the data provided to me by my opponent himself and as such I shall refrain from making points, instead I will be asking questions. So without further adieu, my issues with my opponent's use of scaling.

Keep that statement in the back of your minds folks because you are going to witness it first hand:

"Problem A: Man cannot live with breath alone"

First question I must ask, to the voters and my opponent, is the question of how strong Genos' blasts are usually? What I am talking about is this quote "Kabuto himself could overpower Genos' energy blasts with his breath alone. These same energy blasts blew through a chunk of two mountain tops."Because as someone who relatively new to the verse I can only judge based on what I see, and here is what I see when I click the links to see the feats.

Now if you look at both scans you can see I outlined the size of the blast relative to the characters standing in the same panel, and you can see the panel that shows Genos' mountain blast also shows the blast radius being way bigger relative to the characters compared to the blast used against CK. I acknowledge that CK is probably a big dude, but is the difference in size that big? Further, can we really claim Genos used the same amount of power in both instances, how so? Again, I am making no points here, perhaps I am missing context, but again I am only pointing out what I see based on my opponent's scans and asking questions based on them.

Oh my God. Major, is your character so outclassed that you have to resort to superficial nitpicks to even the playing field? Are you implying that every single blast from Genos must be drawn to the same scale in order for it to be argued at the same power? And that a smaller blast radius means that Genos' energy blasts can't be scaled at all? To call this train of thought stupid is an understatement quite frankly.

Even if I bought your reasoning, it is actually contradicted a few pages earlier. If you had bothered to do any semblance of research rather than jump to invalid conclusions, you would know that the very blast Genos used to blow off mountain tops was relative to himself in size:

One Punch Man: Chapter 9
One Punch Man: Chapter 9

Genos uses this blast to destroy the House of Evolution which destroys the mountain tops as a side effect. So this whole blast radius comparison is utter nonsense.

"Point B: Audiobooks?"

Alright, I have to admit seeing an audio book used for feats was cool and unexpected, but still I have to point out how it is dubious at best. Why? Because we have no idea what actually happened. But we do get to hear what happens and let me paint you a picture of what I hear

What? So the very nature of the audiobook (a story that you can only hear) makes it invalid? I am curious to see your justification is this.

First we hear a guy (presumably Metal Bat) screaming "Ora!" before we hear a good thud is heard, then he says "Ora ora!" before another thud is heard. Then the other heroes watching are heard commenting "It's a frontal assault" followed by "What a magnificent swing!" then Genos comments on how Metal Bat is an S-class for being hard to finish, after this we hear CK scream "YEAH" before hearing the disgusting sound of flesh being torn, after that we hear CK laugh as he calls Metal Bat stupid. Also it's worth nothing we hear the sound of metal clanging almost the whole time.

So it sounds like Metal Bat was destroyed in one clean shot. At least that's how I hear it, to me I hear Metal Bat smacking CK once or twice then someone blitzing, either Metal Bat blitzes or CK does and Metal Bat is blocking (hence the clanging) then CK punches him once and wins, CK laughs showing it was not an even fight, he then insults Metal Bat showing he is not afraid or concerned in the slightest.

Those "metal clanging" sounds were the sounds of attack impact not just bat swinging, first off. Second, to say that Metal Bat was "destroyed in one clean shot" is just stupid because Genos was literally commenting on how Metal Bat is in S-Class for being "not easy to finish" during the fight. Lastly, to judge the events of the entire battle off of like a twenty second clip of audio when we know the battle was three minutes, is pretty dishonest.

It was made pretty clear that Metal Bat and Carnage were fighting quite evenly for the three minutes until the system registered Metal Bat as dead (remember fighting spirit wasn't taken into account). The impact noises implies a trade of belows, which is further supported by Darkshine commenting on Metal Bat's offensive attacks ("what a magnificent swing") while Genos is commenting on Metal Bat's durability ("No wonder he's an S-Class Hero. I guess he's not easy to finish...").

But maybe you interpret it differently, even if you did we have two facts 1. No one can definitively say what happened.

No Major, we don't have a play by play. We do have an explicit statement that Metal Bat lasted three minutes against Kabuto without his fighting spirit in play AND we know that they were trading blows based on sound effects along with commentary from Darkshine and Genos. That's more than enough to scale Metal Bat to Kabuto.

2. No what what happened CK was unfazed and absolutely dominated at the end.

Kabuto was not "unfazed." That is not stated or implied. It wouldn't have lasted that long if he was unfazed. If Metal Bat couldn't give Kabuto a challenge, he would have been one shotted in seconds like Genos was.

Also there are tons of examples of weak guys lasting against characters above their tier, without tangible feats it proves almost nothing (and since your fight took place in an audiobook tangible is impossible).

So being in an audiobook with quite explicit implications and statements... makes it not tangible? You are trying to shift the narrative as you always try to do Major and it isn't working.

I mean didn't Mumen Rider's fight with the Deep Sea King last 3 minutes in the anime? I am not saying Metal Bat vs CK was at the same level, I am merely questioning the validity of leaning on a feat based on the length of the battle alone, I mean it would make sense if the battle was 15 days long but a 3 minute audio battle isn't the strongest point of evidence, but hey that's just me.

What? Major, are you serious? Mumen Rider lasted as long as he did against Sea King because he wasn't taking him seriously at all AND because Mumen Rider was taking very long to recover after each blow. Comparing that to Metal Bat and Kabuto going at it for three minutes straight is just... ugh.

I mean it would make sense if the battle was 15 days long but a 3 minute audio battle isn't the strongest point of evidence, but hey that's just me.

It is just you because, as you said, you don't know jack about OPM. Which shows in your rebuttals.

"Mini Point C: Words Have power, or Do They?"

This point is rather inconsequential compared to my other ones but when I looked for a transcript for the video, I found this back and forth

Genos: Sensei is far more powerful today than he was yesterday… is that even possible?

S: It’s just unreliable simulated data right?

Genos: No but-

S: GENOS!

Genos: Yes!?

Serious Saitama: It doesn’t matter how strong you become in the virtual world, it will never change who you are in real life. I learned this lesson the hard way as a kid when I was so obsessed with leveling up in an RPG I missed my entire summer holiday.

Saitama is basically discrediting the system entirely (audiobook version). I only mention this because my opponent notes that "Metal Bat himself notes that with his fighting spirit, he could've done way better against Kabuto." so my question is, is Metal Bat an authority on this particular battle simulation system? Cause it could just be that Metal Bat is embarrassed that he lost and had his ace power overwhelmed so easily, but again that's not a statement or my personal belief, it is just a possibility I am asking the validity of.

What kinda fanfiction is this?

Major, the reason that Saitama disregarded the VGS is because it couldn't register his comparatively immeasurable power. It can't process intangible factors like Saitama's strength, which can't be quantified and is off the charts. Similarly, it can't process Metal Bat's fighting spirit, which would create similar issues for a system solely reliant on raw combat data.

To answer your question on if Metal Bat is an authority on his own strength, I'd answer with a resounding yes. The whole embarrassment theory has no backing and no evidence. Metal Bat has never really been the type to be embarrassed and has no reason to be in that situation since Genos was one shotted. Metal Bat himself even said that he felt like he could do more, so I don't see why we should disregard that. Again, this is just you talking out of your ass. No evidence, no scans, nothing. Just fanfictions you are spinning as fact.

Summary

Overall, I was disappointed with your rebuttal. The arguments you made were either severely misinformed or just flat out didn't make sense. It should be clear that Metal Bat is Darkseid's physical superior by leaps and bounds which is more than enough to win him the fight.

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#17 defiant_will  Online
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Super or otherwise, you are a man, but I am a God.
Super or otherwise, you are a man, but I am a God.

Final Round: Counters

Final Round Theme:

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Speed

Alright so my opponent took an interesting approach with his counter. He attempted to call Metal Bat's feats into question despite himself having little to no knowledge on the OPM verse. Such a tactic has gotten Major into hot water in one of his most recent debates, so I didn't expect that from him.

It's fun to do, so that's why I do it. I want to clear that up a bit, not for the debate itself but I'm just pointing out that I'm not the kind of debater who debates for ELO, I CaV for the fun of it. So keep that in mind when you lay out expectations for me. Oh and while I do value my own enjoyment when it comes to CaV, it should be said that debating should be fun for both sides.

With that said, let us dissect this debate point by point, as my opponent requested that this be the final round if possible, I shall try to refrain from bringing anything up.

I'm going to be blunt. Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scale that to lightning speed reactions is a blatantly disingenuous take:

The name of the game is word play, see you say "Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scale that to lightning speed reactions is a blatantly disingenuous take:" and I agree, IF I scaled Darkseid to lightning timing it would be quite awful as an argument. However, I never did that. This is what I said

This point will deal with all the physical stats dealing with this fight. So for starters you brought up Metal Bat's speed, which is nice, but just to further cement my point here we have Darkseid once again casually reacting to the Flash with a backhand.

Flash in this universe is famously fast enough to slow mo lightning.

It's interesting because I never connected the two statements with a thesis or conclusion, there was also never a claim. To put this in argument structure I said:

S1: Darkseid can react to Flash

S2: Flash can react to lightning

Conclusion: None.

Therefore what I was not "Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scalethat to lightning speed reactions" because I had never made such a claim, instead what I was doing was contextualizing the data I provided in hopes to strengthen my argument. And by the way my initial claim as seen in my opener is much less outrageous then you are trying to make it seem.

"First things first, let's get this out of the way, while Darkseid is mainly a brick in basically every incarnation, I do believe that he should have the speed needed in order to be an active combatant in this contest. So I will be staring off by showing off his speed feats to establish this point first."

My claim was initially just to say that Darkseid would be able to be an active combatant in this contest, that was the claim I structured my argument on (a claim is a mere component of an argument). I restate this very claim in my second post.

"What's my point? Mainly that in the realm of speed, Darkseid should comfortably be able to keep pace with Metal Bat, I would even go as far as to say that Darkseid has the superior reaction time but that's neither here nor there. It's not like reaction time will win me this fight, but still it's a good advantage to have in any fight. Also take note of how my opponent concedes that Metal Bat is not a speedster, which will be important later on."

Yes, I did also say that Darkseid does have superior reaction time but again, that's neither here nor there. Regardless of whether or not you disagree with that point it does not take away from my main argument.

Also if anyone is confused as to why I brought up the Flash lightning feat in the first place, it was not to say Darkseid is lightning level, but it was just to show how fast Flash is, this is to show why Darkseid tagging him was impressive. My opponent does the exact same thing.

"

Garou is pretty fast, even at this point in the story:

  1. Garou blitzes off the arm of a Hero at FTE speeds
  2. Garou casually bobs and weaves through ricocheting bullet speed projectiles in an alley way
  3. Garou dodges a surprise attack from Spring Mustachio. While his clothes were sliced off, Garou himself received no injuries from the attack, which is impressive because his mobility was impaired due to being shot in the leg prior. Garou then tags Spring Mustachio before he can react, oneshotting him.
    1. Spring Mustachio himself is fast enough to deflect Kombu Infinity's tentacle attack. These tentacles are fast enough to casually swat away supersonic projectiles"

As you can see he is also trying to contextualize the impressiveness of his feats, which is what I did.

Next up my opponent makes another attempt at a rebuttal.

Really Major? Really? To masquerade such showings as consistent is beyond dishonest. The fact that immediately after Darkseid "casually" reacted to the Flash, he was then blitzed several times afterward, should raise a red flag for you:

Later on, he couldn't keep track of Barry as he literally ran circles around him before hitting him two times in the face and running away. Flash quite literally pulled the textbook definition of a hit and run, which should not happen to someone who, as you said, can "casually react" to the Flash:

But here's the question, was Darkseid even trying to catch the Flash? I ask this because I've already shown that Darkseid can and has reacted to the Flash in the past, however your GIFs are trying to discredit that but I'm going to argue that Darkseid was not actively trying to avoid a blitz from Flash

No Caption Provided

Look at the above GIF, right after Flash strikes Darkseid, what does he do? He attacks Wonder Woman and GL by throwing Shazam's lightning at them. Then when Wonder Woman and Flash attack Darkseid watch Darkseid's head as he tracks Wonder Woman and then throws Shazam at her, meaning he would rather focus on Wonder Woman rather than Flash. In fact he doesn't give any indication that he is even attempting to target Flash in this instance.

Now you might be wondering if there is evidence that ignoring a threat is part of Darkseid's character, but actually it is.

No Caption Provided

Darkseid initially thought of the JL as bugs, Flash included, but of course as the fight progresses he gets more and more infuriated.

Also for the feat of Flash running circles around Darkseid, you have to understand that Flash is many times faster than Darkseid in combat and movement speed, Darkseid only compares when it comes to reaction speed so running circles around Darkseid isn't that impressive, also Flash used the tornado he created as cover to take Darkseid by surprise, which is a good strategy on his part. Still it isn't a rebuttal to my claim.

On top of Darkseid flat out not having superior reaction speed, as you said, that is hardly applicable in this fight.

I won't spend more time on this than I have to, but I will say that Darkseid has seemingly reacted to a character with faster movement speed, that is my observation but not something that matters that much, which we agree on.

Strength

So Darkseid knocking back Superman is impressive because Superman previously no sold his city block busting attack? In other words, you are scaling this one punch from Darkseid who had two eyes popped out among other injuriesabove his two armed, energy enhanced attack that he used while in top physical condition?

There is a clear difference in that Darkseid is actually hitting Superman in one GIF, and in the other he smashes the ground which Superman happened to be on. One is a concentrated direct attack compared to an indirect attack that caused AoE damage. Plus I am not scaling Darkseid above Darkseid. In argument form its:

S1: Darkseid took down Superman.

S2: Superman can take city block level attacks without damage.

Conclusion: Darkseid has an impressive amount of strength.

For someone who takes so many issues with scaling, this doesn't bring any red flags for you? I mean you are literally scaling Darkseid above himself, in a fallacious manner no less.

Fallacy is a word with meaning, so tell me which fallacy am I using exactly? Name which one and explain your reasoning.

Even if I completely disregarded this horrible line of scaling, Metal Bat himself is still superior.

Let me outline this

1. Darkseid causes a city block busting attack and Superman survives it with no damage (Superman was not the target of the strike).

2. Darkseid later hits Superman along with Wonder Woman and Shazam in a direct strike which takes them out for 23 seconds.

Both statements are data based, as they are statements backed by feats you can see, and to break down what I said in simple terms to avoid misinterpretation, I said that Darkseid can take down city block level+ opponents as he can taken down an opponent who took a city block level+ attack. Nothing about scaling Darkseid above Darkseid.

Compare that to:

Harming characters city block level characters? Remember the comparatively average Puri Puri Prisoner? Well he oneshotted this Demon Level Threat after his training. Said monster was stated to be as powerful as Deep Sea King. Just how powerful is the Deep Sea King? Powerful to take this city block level attack from Genos. As can be seen, Puri Puri Prisoner is comparable to Darkseid physically. In fact, he takes it a step further in actually oneshotting (as in punching him to bits) the character that can no sell a city block buster.

1. Puri Puri Prisoner says he is the weakest S Class (this indirectly saying he is weaker than Metal Bat).

2. Puri Puri one shotted a demon level threat.

3. By statements that demon level threat is supposedly as strong as Deep Sea King.

4. Deep Sea King is city block level in durability.

So the fact that you think that you are being the more reasonable debater in terms of scaling is baffling to me, I'm not even going to touch OPM. Instead I will visualize the difference in our scaling.

1. Darkseid causes a city block busting attack (This is a shown feat) and Superman survives it with no damage (Superman was not the target of the strike)(This is also a shown feat).

2. Darkseid later hits Superman along with Wonder Woman and Shazam in a direct strike which takes them out for 23 seconds. (This is a shown feat).

V.S.

1. Puri Puri Prisoner says he is the weakest S Class (this indirectly saying he is weaker than Metal Bat). (This is a Character statement)

2. Puri Puri one shotted a demon level threat. (This is a shown feat)

3. By statements that demon level threat is supposedly as strong as Deep Sea King. (This is an author statement)

4. Deep Sea King is city block level in durability. (This is a shown feat)

Do I have to explain how a scaling chat 2x longer than relies on as many statements as it does feats is not reliable? I am not saying it is untrue, but if it is then there should be greater supporting evidence.

And my wording was careful I said:

"But Darkseid with one blow knocked down Shazam, Wonder Woman and Superman in one single blow, and it took them around 23 seconds to recover (hit happens at around 3:06 and their second blitz is at around 3:29, check for yourself).

"This is worthy of note because just one of those heroes, Superman, no sold a city block wiping attack."

As you can see I only made the connection to show why the feats were noteworthy, my claims were conservative compared to the claim that "Metal Bat himself is still superior" this matters because the stronger your claim is the stronger your scaling argument has to be, but yours simply isn't.

To reiterate, I am not claiming your scaling is false, I am pointing out how it is weak, which is a rebuttal to you as you heavily imply that I am a fallacious hypocrite whose scaling is inferior to yours.

This... isn't impressive. No buildings were anywhere close to being destroyed in that entire sequence. That alone should tell you how out of place the feat is in this tier.

You are going to have to give me feats for Doomsday because the shockwave Doomsday created is one that you can't even argue at large building busting (the level at which the Hammerhead Battlesuits are at).

I guess this is a good shockwave strength feat, but given that this is only a supporting point I won't spend too much energy on it.

Endurance

I will admit that Darkseid has monstrous endurance. The difference is that he doesn't gain anything here. In a war of attrition, Metal Bat will always come out on top. Metal Bat will be getting stronger while Darkseid... won't. You touch on this yourself when noting how fatigue affects Darkseid's fighting ability:

I will leave this alone, because I agree to an extent, the point of this section was to "I wanted to point how how just like Metal Bat Darkseid endures." and by admitting Darkseid does have monstrous endurance I have made that point. Now you claim that in a battle of attrition Metal bat would win, and yes I agree. But Metal Bat's power aids him in this while Darkseid has no abilities like that, so while Metal Bat has the superior endurance it's akin to saying Darkseid flies better.

So again my point here is that Darkseid is not a push over and can last if need be, which I think is a point I got over well. With that said I will once again say that Fighting Spirit is a cool and troublesome ability, but even so it doesn't negate my point. Which means we can move on.

Omega Beams

If you are going to strawman me, at least make it convincing. I literally never said that Metal Bar would avoid these beams. My plan against the beams was quite obvious, but I will explain it again below:

It was an unconvincing strawman, you know why? Cause it wasn't a strawman. The definition of a strawman is as follows:

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

owl.excelsior.edu

Now the question is did I distort your argument? The answer is no because in the entire Omega Beams section I quoted you a total of 0 times, I was not distorting your argument, I was making my own point by asking an important question.

I didn't even reference Green Lantern, so you wasted your time bringing him up. I'd like to go back to the Flash scene I posted. Notice that as Flash is running around Darkseid at high speeds, Darkseid can't use his Omega Beams. That is because the tracking is linear. In other words, the Omega Beams can't curve in a circular fashion, but rather changes directions via aiming in a straight line in another direction. I'm not pulling this from nowhere, either. This is quite consistent:

No Caption Provided

Unless I'm blind, Metal Bat is spinning in place, so what's Flash got to do with it?

I'm not arguing that merely spinning around makes the Omega Beams useless. However, Metal Bat's Brutal Tornado pretty much will. Metal Bat is spinning around at high speeds while extending his bat outward, meaning that the Omega Beams would have to somehow get around the bat's rotational movement and tag Metal Bat's actual body. The beams do not have this level of maneuverability in flight.

Or he could just hit the spinning bat, which seems more reasonable. The bat is being held by Metal Bat so Darkseid could at least disarm him.

Another thing that I'd like to note is that it is not at all far fetched to say that Metal Bat can straight up disperse the Omega Beams. Wonder Woman did so:

And I think we can agree that Metal Bat dwarfs Wonder Woman in physical strength.

Yeah but Wonder Woman has magic bracelets

No Caption Provided

And dispersing Darkseid's Omega Beams are feats for their durability, not a WW strength feat. Her sword also dispersed them cause they are made out of the same material.

That and his own Bat was designed to be unbreakable.

But how about like some actual feats? Like I love statements as much as the next guy, but feats are needed to prove that Metal Bat's bat can do what you're saying.

Metal Bat doesn't need basic knowledge to use an attack that should logically work against projectiles. It is literally the only move in his arsenal that doesn't involve swinging for the hills. Metal Bat's ability to think on his feet lends more credence to this, like when he immediately figured out Elder Centipede's weakspot.

Alright, I will admit that Metal Bat does seem to be tactically gifted enough, but still the question of "will it actually work" remains to be concretely answered.

This attack doesn't have some long start up window or anything, so I don't see why you asked this. I mean he used it seamlessly in CQC with Garou. And Metal Bat reacting to Garou's surprise attack is enough to block an attack that even Wonder Woman could react to. And Metal Bat doesn't need a speed advantage to react to Omega Beams. Unless Wonder Woman is faster than Darkseid.

First of all I noticed something, the top of Metal bat's head is open

No Caption Provided

Also my question was never, can Metal bat spin quickly, it was can Metal Bat do it quick enough? We've seen Darkseid's beams catch up to Supes, so that's a testament to their speed. Meanwhile Metal Bat has to think of spinning after seeing the projectile and then spin in time to block it (if it even can do that).

He can close in on opponents while using Brutal Tornado.

Actually that is interesting, Darkseid may have to actually destroy the surrounding area to limit Metal Bat's movements.

The takeaway here is that Darkseid still seems to be the weakest here. Speed wise, there is no way to get around Darkseid's inconsistency in "casually reacting" to the Flash. The best you could show for Darkseid was literally scaling his weakened self above his uninjured self. You make a point in describing the physical difference between these two versions, so this scaling should scream inconsistency. You shouldn't try to argue for endurance against a dude who literally gets stronger with each blow dealt to him. I am also not going to forget that you didn't mention any durability feats for Darkseid that would allow him to tank hits from Metal Bat. Lastly, the Omega Beams won't work as the Brutal Tornado can throw off their trajectory or they can just straight up be dispersed like with Wonder Woman.

This sounds more like a summary. So I will get to it later.

Hitting the Homerun

-is inaccurate. Like completely inaccurate. Elder Centipede destroyed far more than just a city block area, and destroyed far more than what Darkseid did against the Justice League.

Oh lord. Now we get to your attempted "debunk" of Metal Bat's scaling. This should be... interesting:

And being so strong that large building + characters are considered "average" in comparison. But go on

It's interesting that you of all people take such a conservative stance on scaling since the scaling you've used is so convoluted, as I've pointed out. But go on

Wait, when did I mention 1 to 1 ratios of scaling? Stop putting words in my mouth.

Keep that statement in the back of your minds folks because you are going to witness it first hand:

Well you're debunking my intro spiel so I'm not really gonna put energy into defending it. Although putting words in your mouth? I said it was implied not stated. Anyway

"Problem A: Man cannot live with breath alone"

Oh my God. Major, is your character so outclassed that you have to resort to superficial nitpicks to even the playing field? Are you implying that every single blast from Genos must be drawn to the same scale in order for it to be argued at the same power? And that a smaller blast radius means that Genos' energy blasts can't be scaled at all? To call this train of thought stupid is an understatement quite frankly.

Man you're putting too much pathos into my logos, chill bruh.

Even if I bought your reasoning, it is actually contradicted a few pages earlier. If you had bothered to do any semblance of research rather than jump to invalid conclusions, you would know that the very blast Genos used to blow off mountain tops was relative to himself in size:

Genos uses this blast to destroy the House of Evolution which destroys the mountain tops as a side effect. So this whole blast radius comparison is utter nonsense.

You just challenged me to do research, why, But okay fine.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This is the sequence that contains the feat my opponent presented, it can be Googled easily I won't post the link cause I could get flag banned. Why it it important? Because it shows that the blasts of Genos can grow in size. Below I illustrate this, if it's even needed.

No Caption Provided
I outlined the wrong blast earlier in my other post, apologies
I outlined the wrong blast earlier in my other post, apologies

So yeah it's pretty clear that the blast grew in size by the time it reached its target. Also compare the two images

Here Genos is standing and using two arms.

No Caption Provided

And here he is on the ground using one arm.

No Caption Provided

Speaks for itself really.

Also we see a flash of power right before the mountain scan.

No Caption Provided

Which means either that mountain was gas filled or something or or Genos' attack flared up in power, but you be the judge of that. I can't make definitive claims as the chapter only provides a far out view.

"Point B: Audiobooks?"

What? So the very nature of the audiobook (a story that you can only hear) makes it invalid? I am curious to see

your justification is this.

Cause we don't see what happens, I already said that. It isn't as if the passage was that descriptive either.

Those "metal clanging" sounds were the sounds of attack impact not just bat swinging, first off. Second, to say that Metal Bat was "destroyed in one clean shot" is just stupid because Genos was literally commenting on how Metal Bat is in S-Class for being "not easy to finish" during the fight.

We only hear one flesh shot, which sounds like it was a body shot which is why I called it a clean shot. And Metal Bat could have been blocking blows which is why Genos said that.

Lastly, to judge the events of the entire battle off of like a twenty second clip of audio when we know the battle was three minutes, is pretty dishonest.

Which is why audiobook feats are dubious, as I said.

It was made pretty clear that Metal Bat and Carnage were fighting quite evenly for the three minutes until the system registered Metal Bat as dead (remember fighting spirit wasn't taken into account). The impact noises implies a trade of belows, which is further supported by Darkshine commenting on Metal Bat's offensive attacks ("what a magnificent swing") while Genos is commenting on Metal Bat's durability ("No wonder he's an S-Class Hero. I guess he's not easy to finish...").

No Major, we don't have a play by play. We do have an explicit statement that Metal Bat lasted three minutes against Kabuto without his fighting spirit in play AND we know that they were trading blows based on sound effects along with commentary from Darkshine and Genos. That's more than enough to scale Metal Bat to Kabuto.

I'm not going to invalidate your opinion, but here['s the thing. It's your opinion, your interpretation of what happened. We can argue over who heard it better, but no matter what we have no distinct, concrete, tangible feats asides from the vague 3 minute statement.

Kabuto was not "unfazed." That is not stated or implied. It wouldn't have lasted that long if he was unfazed. If Metal Bat couldn't give Kabuto a challenge, he would have been one shotted in seconds like Genos was.

CK was laughing at and taunting Metal Bat, what does that imply?

So being in an audiobook with quite explicit implications and statements... makes it not tangible? You are trying to shift the narrative as you always try to do Major and it isn't working.

The best evidence you have is statement based, that's not concrete (which is what I mean by tangible).

What? Major, are you serious? Mumen Rider lasted as long as he did against Sea King because he wasn't taking him seriously at all AND because Mumen Rider was taking very long to recover after each blow.

And that is exactly my point, how do we know for sure that something likethat didn't happen? Obviously Metal Bat did better, but how can we say that this was an even contest? Yes we have voice lines and sound effects, but if Metal bat had a good showing despite being outclassed we would expect praise too.

Comparing that to Metal Bat and Kabuto going at it for three minutes straight is just... ugh.

The point here is to illustrate the frustrating vagueness of audio feats, which I believe I did.

It is just you because, as you said, you don't know jack about OPM. Which shows in your rebuttals.

I don't need to know jack about anything. You see this debate as if we were both Microbiologists arguing about whether virus live or not, but I see it differently. I see it as you being a Microbiologist and me being an investigative journalist, I don't have the knowledge to debunk you but I do have the tools to question your process.

In other words my tactics don't require great knowledge on the subject matter, as my intentions are to test the validity of what you already posted. Notice how I don't counter anything directly in that post.

"Mini Point C: Words Have power, or Do They?"

Major, the reason that Saitama disregarded the VGS is because it couldn't register his comparatively immeasurable power. It can't process intangible factors like Saitama's strength,

And when did he say that? All he said was "It’s just unreliable simulated data right?"

which can't be quantified and is off the charts. Similarly, it can't process Metal Bat's fighting spirit, which would create similar issues for a system solely reliant on raw combat data.

To answer your question on if Metal Bat is an authority on his own strength, I'd answer with a resounding yes. The whole embarrassment theory has no backing and no evidence. Metal Bat has never really been the type to be embarrassed and has no reason to be in that situation since Genos was one shotted. Metal Bat himself even said that he felt like he could do more, so I don't see why we should disregard that. Again, this is just you talking out of your ass. No evidence, no scans, nothing. Just fanfictions you are spinning as fact.

And you have fallen into quite the conundrum, you're angered at my statements because there were no scans or evidence........my dude that's my point. The character statements have no scans, or evidence. You have helped illustrate my point. Also I never spun anything as fact, I clearly speculated. Now, I do understand that character statements carry their own weight and validity, while my but to what extent? And can we really just take their word as fact?

Conclusion:

Debating side:

I personally believe that I did a good job illustrating and backing up all of my points and claims, I believe that I successfully diverted the debate to where I wanted it to go. I did not spend half my statements on rhetoric and statements, and I believe I was logical in my presentations and how I explained my arguments. Further, I believe my structure of debate was more respectful.

Battle side:

I don't understand how someone with no energy durability feats can tank an energy attack that OHKO'd Superman, your counters were creative but still I doubt they will work in practice. Away from that, I believe Darkseid can hold his own in a physical confrontation. I wil acknowledge that Metal bat does have a clear win condition, but that requires Fighting Spirit to kick in to the extent that Darkseid to overwhelmed, which is a harder conviction to fulfill than just blasting Metal bat with eye beams while flying around.

Anyway, as this is my last post I want to say thank you to my opponent, win or loss it was fun getting back into the game. And to the voters, I urge you to look at the facts as they are presented, to disregard knowledge of the source material and the debaters and to be objectively detailed in your votes. Thanks for reading, peace.

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Interesting.

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T4V

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After reading the posts I think Darkseid can take down Metal Bat with his Omega Beams as shown, but I didn’t really get the stat arguments.

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..... I’ll just be incredibly blunt and say from a debating standpoint @defiant_will: did far better than Major did, not at all close. I’ll be breaking down my thoughts on each aspect of the debate

Speed

I would actually say I felt convinced by @major_hellstrom:’s argument in that Darkseid was indeed fast enough to not be blitzed and could keep up to a degree. However the whole discussion beyond that was pretty dumb.

Like here

The name of the game is word play, see you say "Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scale that to lightning speed reactions is a blatantly disingenuous take:" and I agree, IF I scaled Darkseid to lightning timing it would be quite awful as an argument. However, I never did that. This is what I said

This point will deal with all the physical stats dealing with this fight. So for starters you brought up Metal Bat's speed, which is nice, but just to further cement my point here we have Darkseid once again casually reacting to the Flash with a backhand.

Flash in this universe is famously fast enough to slow mo lightning.

It's interesting because I never connected the two statements with a thesis or conclusion, there was also never a claim. To put this in argument structure I said:

S1: Darkseid can react to Flash

S2: Flash can react to lightning

Conclusion: None.

Therefore what I was not "Trying to argue Darkseid reacting to Flash as a speed showing and then trying to scalethat to lightning speed reactions" because I had never made such a claim, instead what I was doing was contextualizing the data I provided in hopes to strengthen my argument. And by the way my initial claim as seen in my opener is much less outrageous then you are trying to make it seem.

What’s the point of saying this? You’re obviously scaling Darkseid to flash’s feat to some degree, that’s what you’re doing when you bring up another feat for flash and use that to justify Darkseid’s showing against him as impressive. Like you didn’t mention a single other feat Flash had, so you would clearly be scaling to that feat in particular.

It’s like Major wanted to bring up lightning being slow motion to Flash, but didn’t want to commit to actually arguing Darkseid at that level of speed. So he just brings up a feat he is obviously scaling Darkseid too, but says “But I didn’t say Darkseid must be lightning speed so my argument isn’t dumb”.

Omega beams

This part of the debate I would actually give the edge to Major. However that’s solely because MB has no feats against energy attacks, and Gear’s best defense was saying he would spin around to deflect the blasts..... which doesn’t work as he can’t even prove the bat can stand up to the attacks(all he has is the fact the bat is supposed to be hard to break). I feel like if Major capitalized on this, along with being fast enough to react to MB plus Darkseid’s flight he may have had a shot at winning here regardless of if MB is stronger or not.

But he didn’t do that unfortunately. Major also kept bringing up how the omega beams caught up to Superman and how Gear needs to prove MB would react fast enough but neglected to realize the only person’s speed he attempted to quantify was the flash’s. Without speed feats from Superman to make this impressive there is no reason for me to assume MB can’t react to his omega beams.

I don’t think this argument from gear was sound however


I didn't even reference Green Lantern, so you wasted your time bringing him up. I'd like to go back to the Flash scene I posted. Notice that as Flash is running around Darkseid at high speeds, Darkseid can't use his Omega Beams. That is because the tracking is linear. In other words, the Omega Beams can't curve in a circular fashion, but rather changes directions via aiming in a straight line in another direction. I'm not pulling this from nowhere, either. This is quite consistent:

Nor the WW comparison. As major pointed out WW’s bracelets are magical and that’s just a feat for them, and Flash was running circles around Darkseid while MB is mostly spinning in place. Major also brought up how MB’s head is exposed which is a fair point but he didn’t bring the point home, he should have elaborated how Darkseid could take advantage of that and tag him.

Still, I favor Major in this aspect of the debate.

Endurance

There isn’t much to say here, Major conceded this goes to MB. Both have good endurance for what it’s worth, though due to fighting spirit if it came down to endurance MB would clearly win.

Strength

Another aspect of the debate gear did better in. While gear’s argument did require more scaling in regards to PPP than the one shotting Superman, I still feel like gear was more convincing here. Major kept bringing up how Darkseid one shotted three heroes but never established the durability of anyone but Superman, and while Superman did no sell a city block level attack in terms of AoE it makes little difference when PPP can one shot people who tank attacks on a similar level. The fact that MB scales above it significantly and Major didn’t even try to debunk this scaling makes this a clear win for gear.

Hitting the Homerun

This section right here.... this is what lost Major the debate more than his overall lackluster debating previously. His argument that the size of the blast that Genos uses.... this is an awful argument from someone I once would have expected more of. The size of Genos’ attack has absolutely no bearing on the actual potency of the attack, none at all. And what’s even worse is he can’t defend his own bad arguments in this debate, as seen in the audiobook argument he pretty much just leaves it at this is just your opinion as his argument

I'm not going to invalidate your opinion, but here['s the thing. It's your opinion, your interpretation of what happened. We can argue over who heard it better, but no matter what we have no distinct, concrete, tangible feats asides from the vague 3 minute statement.

That’s not a debunk. That said I wholeheartedly agree that 3 minutes of combat in an audiobook isn’t much to go on, any number of things could have happened. But then he goes on to compare Metal Bat, a class S hero that has fought straight up dragon level threats and lived.... to a class C Mumen Rider who isn’t superhuman living against Deep Sea King for a similar amount of time. Half of that fight was Deep sea king trying to kill Genos with Mumen rider failing to do anything to him, then he pysches himself up and crowds cheer for him only to be one shotted by the monster and saved by saitama. We don’t see the audiobook fight but I can tell you that comparison is quite literally the dumbest one major could possibly bring up and didn’t help make his point whatsoever.

This debate wasn’t good at all in my opinion.

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#30  Edited By defiant_will  Online
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Voting for @defiant_will.

This was a simple debate with simple characters, so most of this debate came down to the fundamentals of debating and the feats in question. With this in mind, I found that Gear was able to defend Metal Bat a lot better whilst also putting pressure on MH's argument's both in terms of MB and Darkseid, whilst @major_hellstrom I found really struggled, often feeling like there wasn't much of an "endgame" for the points he was making.

Not much to really say really, if you want finer details then ask but Gear won this IMO, and it wasn't all that close.

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#33  Edited By defiant_will  Online
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#36 defiant_will  Online

After reading the posts I think Darkseid can take down Metal Bat with his Omega Beams as shown, but I didn’t really get the stat arguments.

can I have a bit more elaboration. I mean you say you think Darkseid wins and then you say that you don't understand the arguments. You are suppose to vote for the best arguments, not who you personally think wins

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#37  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

After giving this a good old read up and down, I gotta go for @major_hellstrom based on what I've seen here.

For one, gear's what I can only describe as scaling chains don't really do much in terms of showcase how impressive Bat is, and they are a bit wonky, in particular trying to tie in character statements (which are almost always either dubious or not reliable) into actual tangible feats done by secondary characters. It's not horrible, but it's not exactly crystal clear either, and is unconvincing as a whole. There's nothing wrong with using statements as feats, but I think there's not enough physical feats to back up said statements on a general level. Meanwhile Major's scaling when used was a lot more clear cut, and focused far more on physical feats, which strongly helped his case.

Gear's wording of his responses is a bit much. This is a consistent problem with his wording in that he seems to try to go for a more offensive style of debating (likely inspired by certain users) but it doesn't really make his points anymore clear or effective. If anything, it just shows him as being really uppity and prone to accusing people of ignorance or worse. It doesn't suit him lol

Anyway, I think there was some confusion around the whole Darkseid's speed argument, considering that Gear was arguing like Major was arguing that he was at least Flash level in general speed when to my mind he was just saying that Darkseid was able of reacting to Flash if Bat was around those levels of speed anyway. Of course there was a hint of potential wonky scaling but Major backtracked on that and said it wasn't the case, so I can't really knock him for that

The key part of the debate is the Omega Beam stuff, considering it's the only attack outside of physical stats and the only thing Darkseid has in terms of powers outside of being strong and stuff. The main problem with gear's whole thing was that he tried to argue that Bat could block the beams and hence get past them (this argument was brought apart in fact that Bat has no resistance or showings against strong energy based attacks) but the evidence for Bat's well, bat surviving the blast was that a statement said it was unbreakable. To me, this is insufficient to say that Bat could survive such a attack considering that outside the statement, he's never had to deal with such a attack before and lacks the general feats to suggest he'd be able to survive the attack without sustaining damage. Major had the advantage here simply due to having more actual evidence to showcase how his character could get Bat with ranged attacks.

All in all, I think while some of Major's counters were a bit half hearted, I think he definitely had the edge here in terms of presentation and arguments. Gear slipped up in a few places and his overall attitude didn't help things much.

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#39 defiant_will  Online

This shouldn't be news to you

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#40  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

@defiant_will said:

@professorrespect: lol you know I don't let you vote on my CaVs

I gave a big post explaining my point tho, it's detailed and stuff

There's no real reason why I'm unable to vote tbh, I ain't no biased

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@defiant_will: @major_hellstrom: This was a solid CaV, but I will give my vote to Major. Defiant definitely did a better job in the opening round, the debate evened out in the 2nd, but Major's conclusion sealed the deal. I think Defiant/gear proved that metal bat was likely physically superior to Darkseid with the Hammerstrike suit scaling and Senior Centipede feats, but the CK feat, which got way too much attention from Defiant IMO, was pretty much unquantifiable, and Major did a fantastic job of pointing that out in his 2nd and particularly 3rd posts. Also Defiant generally came off as unnecessarily antagonistic throughout the debate, which is sometimes okay if there's justification, but much of the time in this case just lead to hypocrisy. For example, Defiant accused Major of straw-manning, when he blatantly didn't, and then Defiant himself went on to strawman Major when he said that Major was scaling Darkseid to be a lightning-timer off of Flash, something that Major didn't do.

As for Major's side of the debate, he could have done a much better job supporting Darkseid's physical prowess. I understand that he has an aversion to scaling (and it seems especially in chains) but honestly, as someone who knows a decent amount about the N52 Animated verse, with some very simple and logical scaling Major could havve easily scaled Darkseid to be on Metal Bat's level physically, and if he could have proven that better this CaV wouldn't be nearly this close. Major also kinda botched the counters to Genos' power, and especially in his 3rd post it kinda felt like he was grasping at straws (even though there was an argument to be made the Genos wasn't at full power when he was attacking CK). None of that's to say that Major didn't do a great job, he countered the rest of the CK feat very well, and in terms of Darkseid's on-screen physical feats, he made a solid case and convinced me that Darkseid could at least hang in the fight long enough to drop Metal Bat, and I definitely felt that Darkseid held a sizeable speed advantage, which was something that I came into the battle not expecting. The two things that really won him the debate for me though were his argumentation around Omega Beams, which Defiant never could provide a convincing counter against, and his general demeanor. Overall Major just kept a much leveler head, and as I already said sometimes being antagonistic can work, but it's also not always the best strategy, especially in this case since Major wasn't being particularly disingenuous and was very polite and friendly throughout the debate.

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#42 defiant_will  Online

@professorrespect: bro, I've said time and time again that I won't count your votes on my CaVs. That simple, this isn't new information.

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#43 defiant_will  Online

Don't bother responding because my stance won't change and I don't want to derail this thread

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@professorrespect: bro, I've said time and time again that I won't count your votes on my CaVs. That simple, this isn't new information.

Gear why are you biased, you've allowed my votes in the past to be counted no problem (like with the Spider-Man vs Maw one you had on your last alt) but now it's different for no reason

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@defiant_will: I think Darkseid would win because his Omega Beams are shown to be very potent, meanwhile you didn’t show MB could take them. The argument for scaling didn’t make much sense, scaling to yourself and the speed aspect just mind things messy. But overall the debate was about your physical dominance against the Omega Beams, and I think that Major Hell showed that the Omega Beams would put down Metal Bat faster than Metal Bat coukd put down Darkseid, thus Darkseid wins.

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Honestly, I don't know who I feel won. A lot of my reasoning echoes @thewatcherking - M_H had a lot of high points in the debate IMO and I actually found myself agreeing more with @major_hellstrom than I did @defiant_will throughout most of the debate. However, I didn't see any provable win conditions for M_H even if I thought he did a good job debunking a lot of Metal Bat's advantages. Like the Omega Beams tagging Superman that TWK mentioned... we dunno how fast Superman is, so why should we assume they'll tag Metal Bat? That said, the latter isn't a point D_W brought up either, so this argument is, to quote Major, "neither here nor there".

That said, I tended to agree, quite heavily I might add, with M_H's breakdown of feats. The audio book breakdown, for example, and how we have no way to know for sure what happened in those three minutes and how the small bits shown are anyone's guess. I also liked the pointed out inconsistencies, as @professorrespect mentioned, of relying on statements in his scaling chains. I do feel like the Garou blast radius bit was insane reaching, and the back-tracking on the lightning timing Flash was insanely far-fetched to believe.

That said, I felt Metal Bat even with the slightly questionable scaling was solidly ahead of Darkseid physically. I don't remember anything Major posted for Darkseid that Metal Bat wouldn't be able to do, except the speed where I'm iffy. I honestly don't know who to vote for. Major's counters were definitely more convincing to me than vice versa, but I wasn't convinced Darkseid could win. Meanwhile, D_W convinced me that Metal Bat is a) physically superior and b) has what it takes to win.

So I'm going for @defiant_will I guess.