CaV: DCEU Batman (Major Hellstrom) V.S. MCU Crossbones (AMCU) H2H. Open For Votes!

  • 83 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#51 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Skill

This is certainly very impressive and I don't want to lowball it but I do want to note 1 thing. Bruce was tagged in this exchange.

Now you could argue that Batman simply allowed himself to be tagged in that instance because he knew his cowl would protect him. But on the other hand there is nothing to say he would have avoided that attack without his cowl. And if he didn't he would have likely been cut severely on the back of the head and than he would have likely been beaten.

One thing you are forgetting. This fight was right after the Superman vs. Batman fight, so he is not at 100%. However, we know that Batman was the capability to dodge these attacks so it is not unreasonable to assume that he allowed himself to get attacked, knowing he could tank it, since dodging would put him at a compromised position.

I don't think this exchange is comparable to Cap going through all the Shield strike agents without being tagged once. And on top of that while neither have great feats if we go buy implied standing than the strike agents have a little more going for them than the mercenaries that Batman fought. The strike team was the group that they put Cap and Natasha in. And they seemed to be the primary group SHIELD used for combative situations(such as saving the hostages from Batroc and his mercenaries). They should be better on paper than the mercenaries who IIRC the only thing that imply their general standing in universe is that Lex hired them.

Why are you comparing Captain America's feat to Batman's? Crossbones is significantly inferior to Cap so this comparison is null. Bruce does not need to be better than Cap to best Crossbones, that would just be overkill.

Not bad but if I'm not mistaken Deadshot's best skill feat is taking down a couple of FBI agents or something similar to that. Taking him down so easily is very impressive but I doubt it's comparable to giving Captain America a decent fight.

Crossbones started the fight sucker punching Cap and he had gauntlets on to make him stronger than Cap. So from a pure skill perspective, what Crossbones did isn't very impressive since he lost the fight.

It isn't as impressive as taking him on while he had both hands. But it is impressive because it shows how far superior Rumlow is to the other Strike agents. Who where unable to tag Cap and where being defeated regardless of the fact that Cap had an arm locked to the wall.

That just proves that Crossbones is more skilled than fodder. Not really something to brag about.

I don't think that's a good comparison. Captain America was unprepared for that attack. Batroc surprised him while he was talking trying communicate on his intercom to Natasha.

He blocked the first attack but wasn't prepared to totally brace himself so he was knocked backwards and off balance. Than Batroc kept him off balance and this left him open for further attacks. Still only one of those actually clearly landed.

I think it is a really good comparison because Cap wasn't caught totally off guard seeing as how he blocked the first attack, a similar situation occurs against Crossbones

In your first example, Cap dodges and blocks Crossbones' first attack, but does not expect a follow up so quickly so he gets tagged

No Caption Provided

And in your second, Cap once again blocks Crossbones' attack but does not expect the headbutt which stuns him enough for Crossbones to follow up with a punch

No Caption Provided

This is contrary to your original statement

So Crossbones managing to tag Cap at all is incredibly impressive and he tagged him fair and square.

Since while Crossbones didn't use cheap tricks to tag Cap, it wasn't as if he is fast or skilled enough to tag Cap clean.

This one.

No. Batroc tags Cap twice, right before that he lands a kick to Cap's head, it is hard to miss cause Cap doesn't really sell the hit but he doesn't dodge or block either

No Caption Provided

The rest seemed to be blocked.

And as soon as Cap got back on balance he casually blocked and dodged all of Batroc's attacks with ease.

Cap casually avoided everything and just straight up wrecked Batroc.

Which is exactly why I used Batroc as an example, because Cap does the exact same thing against Crossbones

No Caption Provided

Crossbones only lands hits when Cap gives him an opening usually by blocking his strikes, but Crossbones also tags Cap when he pins him against a wall.

Furthermore I disagree with utilizing Batroc as a low showing for Cap. Batroc doesn't have any feats other than fighting Cap. And that is the only thing by which we can judge him. His feats against Cap shouldn't he utilized as if they are automatically interchangeable with any other high level peak human. And we shouldn't assume that others can do what he did to Cap just because he did it. He doesn't have any thing else to judge him by. Which means it can't really be a low showing

You misunderstand. I never claimed these were low showing for Cap. I am saying that showing Cap get tagged by Crossbones then immediately following up that by showing Cap dodge attacks from Bucky and BP is misleading. We have seen Cap get tagged by people slower than both Bucky and BP, that is what I was proving.

I don't think this is a good comparison either. Ultron doesn't have many clear reaction or speed feats of his own but he is an Iron Man level opponent and could tangle with Iron Man in combat.

This is all pure scaling and assumptions. Regardless of how hard you scale, however, the fact remains that BP and Bucky are faster in combat than Ultron is.

True enough on the part of Cap dodging his attacks. But that is beyond my point. Cap can dodge and block attacks very easily from people that are portrayed as roughly his equal. And while he did dodge or block most of Crossbones attacks he did the same against The Winter Soldier in their first fight and Black Panther in their fight. It's a part of his fighting style and the fact that Crossbones landed hits at all shows how fast he must be.

Yes, it shows that Crossbones isn't slow. But at the same time, others have proven that you don't have to be that fast to tag Steve (another example would be Loki). This is important because later on in the speed sections you use Cap's feats implying that you think Crossbones tagging him puts him on Cap's level when he isn't, as shown when Cap consistently dodges his attacks, you seem to think that him tagging Cap proves that he is but again, you don't have to be as fast as Cap, Bucky or BP, to tag him.

Strength

That's not totally unimpressive but that looks like regular drywall to me. Which I don't think is that durable. I'm struggling to find a specific durability for it online but I know have damaged drywall myself as a young child(got in trouble for it too). Wouldn't be tough for Cap to replicate things far superior to that. And Crossbones seems to be at least a little stronger as Cap.

It was wooden, maybe plastered with drywall but the support was made out of wooden planks

No Caption Provided

And Bats walks through it with no effort.

All these feats are impressive. There is no doubt that Bruce is among the strongest live action comic book peak humans. But still Cap is massively stronger than Bruce and Crossbones pressured him with his strength. I'll just use this motorcycle feat.

All that calcs and scaling relies on one tiny little assumption, it relies on the fact that Crossbones is as strong as Cap, which he isn't. If you compare their feats, Crossbones is far from Cap. You can see this by how their strikes affect one another. Crossbones' punch knocks Cap this far, which is impressive

No Caption Provided

But Cap's sends him flipping through the air in, what I would say is, a greater distance.

No Caption Provided

And if you compare feats of destruction, Crossbones makes a door fly (but also fails to break the glass which already had bullet indentations on it)

No Caption Provided

While Cap shatters concrete by throwing Ultron at a pillar and shatters a Jeep by throwing a motorcycle at it

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So Cap is clearly stronger than Crossbones, the only thing Crossbones has over Cap is punching strength. But you aren't using Cap's punching feats, you used his lifting throwing and ripping feats. It doesn't translate that way. You do try to justify this by saying that Cap was preassured by this, but is that really enough to say that Crossbones is as strong or stronger than Cap? I submit to you not. The evidence shows that Cap was able to slip out of the pin quickly

No Caption Provided

As you can see Crossbones pins down Cap with one arm before attempting to stab him with another, but the pan does not work as Cap dodge. Now Cap could only dodge if 1. He slipped out of Crossbones' grasp showing that Crossbones isn't stronger. 2. Crossbones lets go of Cap, showing that Crossbones isn't that bright. However, the answer is made clear when you see further evidence showing Cap block a strike from Crossbones' entire arm

No Caption Provided

So Crossbones being as strong or stronger than Cap isn't something I buy into given the differences in their feats, the inconsistency of the situation and the fact that your evidence for this claim isn't that convincing.

I mean you are talking about a man who can apparently push a bulldozer across a field in way less than 20 seconds and stop a helicopter from taking off. You are telling me that he is going to be overpowered by a normal peak human (because to my knowledge, outside of the gauntlets and armor, he received no other amps, and the gauntlets are just for striking)? I say neigh.

That's again very impressive for a peak human but I don't see what about this comes close to comparing to Crossbones striking power.

Crossbones' best feat of destruction is knocking down a door, I would say that smashing walls and the floor is comparable. And before you say that Crossbones is better since one hit "dazed Cap for multiple seconds to the point that he can't dodge" I would say that under further inspection, that that's not entirely true. Now yes, the first time Crossbones hit Cap, he did knock him down hard enough that Cap got tagged again (as you showed) but he was also smashed into a wooden stall. Take that stall away and you get this

After Crossbones' first strike he hits Cap again

No Caption Provided

The camera then cuts to Black Widow and Sam. Then the next time we see Cap, we see that he dodges a kick from Crossbones, blocks a punch then starts dodging and blocking blows

No Caption Provided

And before you claim that something happened between those cuts know that 1. The Black Widow\Flacon scene lasted longer than a minute. 2. At the start of the next cut Cap is still down and Crossbones only then starts to attack. This means that if this scene was playing out in real time, Crossbones would not have advanced for a full minute and Cap wouldn't have recovered in that time either, both those things are out of character for them. So the Black Widow\Falcon scene clearly happened while Cap was fighting Crossbones AKA nothing could have happened in between those cuts.

I don't see how that's close at all. Bruce broke through a very thin wall made of drywall. And in the other feat he managed to throw a human through a thin layer of concrete. I don't see how that compares to punching a door of what looks like a metal frame with enough force to send it 15 ft and bend the metal of the door.

But throwing this crate with one hand, hard enough to crack a man's skull is certainly a comparable feat.

No Caption Provided

It's only like 8 ft from Batman. And while the force of the guy moving towards Batman would make this feat more impressive. You can see that Bruce didn't actually punch him straight back in the direction he was going. It was at an angle.

I still think that is impressive.

True enough but even if Bruce knows that Crossbones is going to try and punch him that doesn't mean that the punch won't land.

It does when Bruce is faster and more skilled.

1. Speed wise depends on what you are referring to. In terms of how fast they punch I wouldn't give any advantage to Bruce. If anything Crossbones has the advantage due to tagging Cap. They areat worst comparable. If we are talking about maneuverability I would give Batman the advantage because Crossbones doesn't seem to really walk that fast in the suit.

I mean their RPMs or how fast they can attack. Bruce can land multiple full force punches while Crossbones can only land one before having to reload, he can use uncocked punches but those aren't as strong.

2. That tell simply informs Bruce that Crossbones is going to try and punch him. That doesn't mean that that punch wouldn't land. Throughout the fight Crossbones is always going to by trying to hit Batman. That's a given.

Given Bruce's advantages in speed and skill, it does mean that the hit will be highly unlikely to hit. It is like taunting before an attack, it greatly reduces the chance that the attack will land.

On top of that looking at it I'm pretty sure Crossbones punches only uncock if he hits something with the full force of a punch. Which means that even if Bruce dodges a cocked punch, the gauntlet is still cocked and ready to release a full powered punch. He would have to dodge around Crossbones's punches and not be tagged at all to avoid this hit.

We don't know the exact mechanics of it, so that is likely true. But since Crossbones likes pinning his opponents to the wall, Bruce can likely make him hit the wall to waste his punch.

3. Are you talking striking strength or strength? Either way Crossbones has far greater pure strength due to being at worst comparable and likely even stronger than Captain America. He also has greater striking feats. Perhaps he needs to cock his gauntlets but he can easily do so and simply wait until he actually tags Bruce.

I mean uncocked striking strength.

Also the punch where he launches Cap into those shelves is still impressive and good enough to hurt Batman. While he recovered quickly it caused Cap to grunt in pain and ragdolled him. So it will likely do worse to Bruce. And it will certainly hurt him.

Never said it wouldn't harm Bruce. Just that Bruce is stronger than Crossbones.

Also I want to drop one more striking feat that I think is notable.

While that is a good feat, it isn't exactly how you described it. The way I see it, Crossbones didn't simply hit Cap with the side of his gauntlet, he clapped Cap's head with both hands, and Cap was barely staggered.

Durability

I think you're using bad scaling. When dealing with situations where street levers tank hits from high tiers I think it is best to judge the feat visually rather than scale that high tiers strength.

I believe that you should judge using a combination of both no matter the tier.

By you're logic Captain America can survive a punch from Thanos who was able to wreck the hulk in like 10 hits. Or Black Widow was able to tank a back hand from the Hulk. I don't think it's good to scale characters like this. And I wouldn't use any of those feats beyond what we visually see. I have to ask you do you really believe that Batman can tank hits from Superman?

Not exactly. Bats doesn't really have feats that would say he can't tank that, and we don't have to factor in Supes' morals since he didn't seem to hold back much, it was also just a backhand so it isn't that unbelievable. But I won't try and scale directly to Superman, I will, however, provide perspective.

I would judge the scene visually and it is very impressive. This feat is the sole reason that I don't see Crossbones one shotting Batman.

Bruce tanking getting rag-dolled by a Parademon is enough to say that he doesn't get one shot.

Because Batman was able to get up after being launched 30 ft hard enough to dent the door of a car. But still this hit hurt him and Crossbones hits with comparable if not greater force.

Comparable? I think not. Superman can push Batman 60 feet with just a tap

Loading Video...

That is a distance of 3-4x better than Crossbones' 15-20 feet. And that is just a tap, Superman backhands Batman in Justice League, a movie where he gets amped. Not to mention the fact that Bruce dents a police car, which is already a better feat than punching a door off its hinges.

Batman hitting those isn't comparable at all to being punched with a similar amount of force. I imagine real humans can withstand being thrown 15-20 ft . But if you punched one that distance they would probably be severely injured or die.

True, getting punched is more damaging than being thrown. But Bats got thrown a longer distance than Crossbones can punch and he was thrown at a force enough to break metal bars, while Cap was only hit with a force enough to break wood. And Bruce gets thrown twice in a row.

The piercing aspect of a bullet would kill Cap. But as far as feats If Cap had a bulletproof cowl than he could certainly tank a bullet from the blunt force perspective. To make a comparison I already made above Ultron bots can straight up no sell being hit by bullets.

Cap certainly should be able to tank his own hits so yeah give him Bruce's cowl and he replicates that with ease.

Wait a minute, I don't understand. I get why you showed Cap feats for speed and strength, but durability? What has Crossbones down to warrant him borrowing Cap's feats?

Also I want to remind you of just how well Crossbones was tanking Cap's punches. We have this here which I already showed above.

That isn't tanking. Crossbones was clearly sent reeling in the first GIF and the second is too fast to even see.

Cap hit Crossbones multiple times in the mid area and he barley even moved at all. That is about one step below straight up no selling. If he can do that with Cap's hits than Bruce will struggle greatly to damage him permanently.

Good feat. But that isn't something Batman would even try to do, he would try to grapple or go for the head. Attacking the part of the body that is clearly armored is.....

No Caption Provided

You're right in order to make Crossbones's durability look very impressive I have to scale him. But in this circumstance I don't see why I shouldn't.

Crossbones has done nothing to warrant him being as durable or more durable than Cap. Yes, he can take Cap's punches, but aside from this feat (which is a load of PIS, when Cap punched a Stark Sentry which has comparable feats to an Ultron Sentry, it did exactly jack to it, and Cap punched it twice) Cap doesn't really have impressive punching feats, any feats that you've shown anyway.

Speed

But it is clear he is fast considering he could land hits against Captain America. Who is faster and more skilled than Batman. I'm not going to argue that Crossbones would be dodging or blocking a whole bunch of Bruce's attacks. But I also don't see why he would struggle greatly to tag Bruce when he has tagged someone faster and more skilled.

He struggled against Widow's speed and even failed to tag her with a punch. Restoring to hair pulling for a win.

Loading Video...

Sadly for him, Bruce is better than Widow and also has no hair to pull. His strikes would also work a whole lot better.

So is Cap.

And Cap was able to dodge most of Crossbones' attacks. It was only really a decent fight thanks to Crossbones' initial surprise attack, but he won't get that with Bruce.

That's cool but just a little before his fight with Crossbones Captain America was able to react to a grenade.

Doomsday is faster than a grenade. He is supersonic.

The problem with this is I don't think there are any really impressive speed feats for these blasters. People say that Thor reacting to Loki's scepter is impressive because that blast was able to reach past a skyscraper and seems to reach the clouds in about a second.

The Parademon blasts were fast enough to be seen moving and dissipating, even in Flash's quick time view.

No Caption Provided

They can also be seen moving a great distance in a second or less, and tagging the Flash in the process, who you can see started to move but wasn't quick enough. He may be incompetent, but this is still a good feat for the blasters as Flash catches a batarang earlier in the film.

No Caption Provided

Cap on the other hand can react to repulsor's.

That is aim blocking. He knew Tony was going to fire, and didn't just react to the blast after the fact. You can see him starting to move the shield in your first pic, thus the blur.

This Ain't America

This is basically my conclusion\recap, I named it this way since I felt like I was debating against Captain America, but this ain't America. let me show you why.

Durability

Legit Crossbones' best feat is taking punches from Cap, but Cap's punches can range from normal to one-shotting a punching bag.

Loading Video...

So we can't just automatically assume taht every time Cap punches someone, he does so with 100% of his power. Also, he doesn't even have that many goof punching feats. Crossbones' other feat is essentially just him getting one shot by Cap's kick.

No Caption Provided

Speed\Skill

He tags Cap a couple of times, usually after pinning down Cap or making an opening by making Cap block a strike. That's impressive. But Cap schools him with his speed and skill throughout the fight

No Caption Provided

To take it even further, Cap even dodges a hit while pinned and in close proximity.

No Caption Provided

Widow also dodges Crossbones and tags him multiple times.

Loading Video...

Strength

Crossbones' main advantage isn't all it's chalked up to be. His feats are one shotting a thin door and punching Cap a good distance away. That's great. But Cap takes a fully powered punch and dodges the next flurry of attacks, so Crossbones isn't as good as you some may believe.

After Crossbones' first strike he hits Cap again

No Caption Provided

The camera then cuts to Black Widow and Sam. Then the next time we see Cap, we see that he dodges a kick from Crossbones, blocks a punch then starts dodging and blocking blows

No Caption Provided

And before you claim that something happened between those cuts know that 1. The Black Widow\Flacon scene lasted longer than a minute. 2. At the start of the next cut Cap is still down and Crossbones only then starts to attack. This means that if this scene was playing out in real time, Crossbones would not have advanced for a full minute and Cap wouldn't have recovered in that time either, both those things are out of character for them. So the Black Widow\Falcon scene clearly happened while Cap was fighting Crossbones AKA nothing could have happened in between those cuts.

Conclusion:

I won't counter all of your counters to "The Fight" since I don't want to stretch this out longer than it has to be, but essentially my main point is that whether or not the fight goes exactly the way I said it is likely to go, Bats will win nearly every time unless Crossbones gets lucky.

I'd have to disagree with you. Crossbones nearly no selling Cap's punches should place him above Bruce in the durability department. And I haven't see anything from Bruce that comes even close to pressuring Cap against a wall strength wise.

Supes backhanding him is more impressive no matter how you slice it. Crossbones never concretely overpowered Cap, and if he did that would just be PIS.

Beyond maybe the final kick none of Cap's hits really did much of anything. Bruce hits with significantly less force than Cap. So I don't think his strikes will be too effective.

Cap's punches to the face sent Crossbones reeling.

He used his grappling hock for that and that wouldn't damage Crossbones. The best something like that could do is momentarily block his vision.

I said that scan was to show that Bruce uses his surroundings.

Honestly Cap isn't much if at all less likely to go for joints and snap them as compares to Batman. He snapped Ultron bots arms at the joint. He even went for a knee strike against Batroc.

Bats does it basically every fight he is in. If not going for the joints, going for a weak spot. More examples would be here, where he punches Harley in the mouth while underwater and here he does another knee strike. Meanwhile, Cap doesn't do it as often, his style is that of a boxer first and foremost.

I believe Crossbones will win for this primary reason. Batman doesn't have any significant advantages.

I would argue that neither of them does, but Bats has 3 minor advantages which add up. Yes 3, durability, skill and speed are all mine. Also, while Crossbones may have the significant advantage in striking, he has to cock his fist for that. So my conclusion is the same as before

Regardless of how the fight goes, I think Bruce will win for the following reasons

  1. He is more skilled.
  2. He is comparable in strength does not need to power up his strikes like Crossbones
  3. He is more durable.
  4. He is faster.
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#52 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Well, I'm done. You ready for votes?

Avatar image for deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00
#53 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

This was very fast.

Avatar image for amcu
#54 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: Yes I`m ready. though I`m on mobile right now so can you do the tags? Also excellent final post.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#55 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Very well. And thanks! What did you think of your first CaV?

Avatar image for amcu
#56 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: More mentally exhausting than I anticipated but still quite enjoyable. I need to work on my formating and structure.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#57 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#58 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

@major_hellstrom: More mentally exhausting than I anticipated but still quite enjoyable. I need to work on my formating and structure.

That's because this is the "deep counter" type of CaV and not the "counter for counter" type which is more straightforward. But don't worry, you will get used to it. As for formatting, I think yours was fine.

Avatar image for amcu
#59 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: Thanks man. And thanks for getting me to do one. I`m very happy I finally did.

Avatar image for empressofdread
#60 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#61 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#62 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I'm glad you are, I eagerly await your future CaVs so that I can think "Man, I was that guy's first opponent" lol.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#63 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say, Hellstrom takes this in a landslide. The main reason is Amcu's second post. I do understand that Cap is the only named opponent Crossbones fought, but you can't just drop a respect thread for Cap in your post and say "Crossbones made him exert himself that one time for a second, so Crossbones must be superior".

Avatar image for darkpsychiclord_prime
#64 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (4207 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn this was fast, great CaV. I'll vote when i have time.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#65 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu Scaling as such should be OK, but you should remember to reel it back to Crossbones every now and then so your opponent doesn't have to remind you that this isn't Batman vs Cap.

Other than that, it was a nice debate

Avatar image for stalin-is-steel
#66 Posted by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

After looking at all the posts, I'd have to give this match to @major_hellstrom. He gave a very convincing argument that Bats could outmatch Crossbones in terms of speed and skill, as well as decently withstand any hits taken. I found some of the scaling of Crossbones to Cap a bit shaky and exaggerated, especially the claim that Crossbones's striking "exceed Super Soldier level" despite his best hit being a undefended sucker punch, and Cap sending him further with a kick. Seeing him struggle to hit Widow and his clunky gauntlets in action sealed it in the other dudes favour.

Despite this, I did find that the argumentation for Crossbones for the most part to be fair and reasonable, apart from some logical hiccups.

Avatar image for empressofdread
#67 Edited by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom said:

@empressofdread: As long as you vote fair, that's fine.

Yeah. I will be 100% fair. I will also give reasons obviously, don't worry and there is no need to doubt me.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#68 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: @stalin-is-steel: Thank you for the votes.

Avatar image for amcu
#69 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Thanks for the input. And I do agree with you. I will try to consider this in future debates.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#70 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

@chimeroid: Thanks for the input. And I do agree with you. I will try to consider this in future debates.

So, basically, it ends up being a question of formatting. We don't need to see 15 feats of cap. Just show us one or two and bring it back to Crossbones as soon as you can. Keep the focus on what you have going for you and you could be golden. Of course, hellstrom is a veteran debater by now and knew exactly how to capitalize from your formatting.

Avatar image for amcu
#71 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#72 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I ain't no vet. Also what do you mean by me capitalizing on formatting?

Avatar image for thewatcherking
#73 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18960 posts) - - Show Bio

Will vote in a day or two.

Avatar image for hulkuberstomp
#74 Posted by hulkuberstomp (1791 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for amcu
#75 Posted by Amcu (17514 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: how to vote?

How do you vote? You just examine the debate objectively and vote for who gave the superior argument. Not who you think would win in fight. But for which debater argued the best.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#76 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I ain't no vet. Also what do you mean by me capitalizing on formatting?

Don't you already have like 60 cavs? That is more than most other viners.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#77 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for chimeroid
#78 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: No, I only finished half of that

Well, even 30 CaVs is a rather respectable number. I mean, apart for the likes of LVengers and serious CV veterans, not many viners can match it :)

Avatar image for subline
#79 Posted by Subline (9535 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wins, he's more skilled, faster in combat, Crossbones wasn't too impressive in the fight against Cap, the only think I would say he is better in is strength.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#81 Edited by blackspidey2099 (7127 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom said:

@amcu said:

@major_hellstrom: More mentally exhausting than I anticipated but still quite enjoyable. I need to work on my formating and structure.

That's because this is the "deep counter" type of CaV and not the "counter for counter" type which is more straightforward. But don't worry, you will get used to it. As for formatting, I think yours was fine.

What on Earth is a "deep counter" CAV and what's a "counter for counter" CAV and what's the difference? Not being facetious, I honestly haven't heard of either one before.

Also, I'll get a vote in later today.

EDIT: I'm going to have to vote for Major Hellstrom, mainly because of the "This Ain't America" section in her last post, which pretty effectively showed why the scaling which Amcu used wasn't 100% applicable (and was also aptly named). Amcu did a great job of convincing me Cap would beat Batman, but after MH convinced me that the scaling wasn't perfect, Amcu just didn't show enough other feats (mainly since Crossbones doesn't have enough feats) to show why Crossbones would beat Batman.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#82 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: Deep counters are counters beyond surface level, that's stuff like arguing context, scaling, what's in character, prep possibly, rule breakingness etc.

Counter for counter is just that, your opponent posts a feat and you counter with your own. Straightforward debating.

Avatar image for blackspidey2099
#83 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7127 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for thewatcherking
#84 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18960 posts) - - Show Bio

After looking at all the posts, I'd have to give this match to @major_hellstrom. He gave a very convincing argument that Bats could outmatch Crossbones in terms of speed and skill, as well as decently withstand any hits taken. I found some of the scaling of Crossbones to Cap a bit shaky and exaggerated, especially the claim that Crossbones's striking "exceed Super Soldier level" despite his best hit being a undefended sucker punch, and Cap sending him further with a kick. Seeing him struggle to hit Widow and his clunky gauntlets in action sealed it in the other dudes favour.

Despite this, I did find that the argumentation for Crossbones for the most part to be fair and reasonable, apart from some logical hiccups.