CaV: DCEU Batman (Major Hellstrom) V.S. MCU Crossbones (AMCU) H2H. Open For Votes!

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#1 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

CaV: DCEU Batman (Major Hellstrom) V.S. MCU Crossbones (AMCU)

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V.S.

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Rules:

  • DCEU Batman with no tie-in comic feats.
  • MCU Crossbones.
  • No explosives, knives, batarangs or the like for each side. This will be a pure H2H fight.
  • Win by death, KO or submission.
  • Morals on.
  • Random encounter.

Battlefield:

15 feet apart
15 feet apart

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#2 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu Here is the thread. Do you want me to go first?

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#3 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm,t4V.

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#4 Posted by BladeOfFury (3588 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, Amcu doing a CaV? T4V!

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#5 Edited by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu Here is the thread. Do you want me to go first?

Yeah go ahead. Thanks. I'm pumped. Hopefully I won't be annihilated Lol.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu, damn it I wanted to CaV you lol. Tag after every post...

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#7 Posted by RBT (30012 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm,t4V.

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#8 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu, damn it I wanted to CaV you lol. Tag after every post...

I totally forgot about that lol. I was just convinced to try one today. If this goes well I'll have to CAV you sometime though.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Good. I want to test my live action skill with MCU Black Panther again so after this, I am next in line to debate you.

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#10 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by LJayG (1442 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh man I can't wait for this.

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#12 Posted by hulkuberstomp (1791 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post

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#13 Posted by TonyMartial (10280 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Good luck

Tag after every post please.

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#14 Posted by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

t4V

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#15 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: I was thinking about it. I might try and put up my first post tonight. Does that sound cool to you?

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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: If that's what you prefer then be my guest.

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

AMCU in a cav? Tag please

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#19 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

nice

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#20 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5911 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V there's already been a CAV about this before so this might bring up some new perspectives.

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#21 Posted by omnipotence88 (1209 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6537 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#24 Posted by Oreoghoul (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
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#25 Posted by DrPepperMan (6288 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes! My favorite live action debater in a CaV. T4V.

And is it odd I'm trying to find where Amcu fits in the Viner pecking order.

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#26 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: One more thing. I was't sure how many posts we're trying to do. I was thinking of 2 in my head but I'm open to 3 if you prefer it. Which would you like to do?

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#27 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5911 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (4205 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please and good luck to both.

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#29 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

Crossbones

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Skill

Brock isn't the most skilled character in the world but he's no pushover in this category either.

Here we see his skill displayed in his fight with Captain America in the elevator. He is able to kick Cap's arm and cause the magnetic cuff to attach to the elevator. And than after that point he was able to land an attack with his taser.

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For comparison this is what happened to all the other agents after Cap broke out of the first magnetic cuff.

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There attacks are blocked dodged or countered. And they are all dismantlement in rapid succession. Not a single agent was able to tag him, besides of course Rumlow.

But Rumlow didn't just land those hits while Cap had an arm tied behind his back. He was able to take on Cap later one on one. And he successfully landed two attacks along with dodging a punch.

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Cap ended up brute forcing his way through Rumlow instead of out skilling him. Now Rumlow might not be able to perform every single maneuver that he would normally due to the suit but this gives us a general idea of how skilled Rumlow is. And that is enough compete with Bruce.

Here we see that Crossbones with his suit is skilled and fast enough to successful tag Civil War Captain America in combat.

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You could say that it isn't that impressive because Cap dodged most of his hits. But Captain America in the same film showed the skill and speed to dodge multiple attacks from the Black Panther.

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Now T'Challa is a casual bullet timer with skill feats that are at worst on the level with Batman.

Cap has also managed to avoid repeated attacks from The Winter Soldier. Who is equal to Cap in physicals and portrayed as roughly his equal in skill.

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Cap's entire fighting style focus's largely on defense and he can easily dodge attacks from his peers. So Crossbones managing to tag Cap at all is incredibly impressive and he tagged him fair and square. Considering that he will certainly do so to Batman. And more easily than he did with Cap.

Striking/Strength

Here we see that Crossbones can break and launch a sealed door off it's hinges. This is impressive because that whole room is likely meant to contain dangerous biological chemicals.

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So the door would need to be very strong. And if you watch it closely you can see that part of the metal of the door was bent after it was punched.

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Here is what is likely his most impressive striking feat. He manages to punch Captain America 20-30 ft so hard that Cap went through a wooden object. And so hard that Cap was dazed to the point that it took several seconds to get up and he couldn't do so in time to block or dodge Crossbones next punch.

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This is incredibly impressive because no one has ever hurt Cap that hard in a single strike. Not Iron Man, Spider-Man, Ultron, Red Skull or The Winter Soldier.

Just to give you a taste of Cap's durability he can take being wailed on to the face from The Winter Soldier and remain conscious with only some bruising.

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Bucky who hits hard enough to horrible degrade steel.

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Crossbones seems to hit far harder than Bucky. So if such an attack lands on Bruce it's not going to be pretty. He won't be one shotted but it will hurt him. A lot more than it hurt Cap. And it will leave Bruce open to further attacks from that point forward.

Crossbones doesn't have much in the way of pure strength feats but he still has a does have one to note.

Here he pressures Cap against a wall and causes Steve struggle enough that he had to bare his teeth.

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If he can pressure Cap with his strength than I think it's fair to say He's a bit stronger than Batman.

Durablity

Crossbones is durable enough to very easily shrug off Cap's punches to his face.

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Just to prove how much harder Cap hits than Batman. Cap can one shot Ultron bots while not even hitting them with a direct punch.

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They in turn can no sell bullets without flinching. And they can withstand crashing into the helicarrier at high speeds

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If Crossbones managed to tank those punches than it would take Bruce a decent amount of time to actually do lasting damage with his own strikes.

Crossbones also managed to tank a spin kick to the face from Captain America.

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Now you might argue that this is what beat him. But if you watch it after that kick Crossbones doesn't struggle at all to get up. He could have continued fighting but his goal was to lure Cap in so he could blow him up.

And and I'm not going to hold anything back. In the same film we see Cap casually do this with his kicks.

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His striking is just straight up above Bruce's pay-grade. So if he didn't do serious damage to Crossbones with that kick than it will certainly be very hard for Bruce to do so.

Gameplain

It's pretty simple and fairly straight forward. While I'll concede that Batman has a little more to go on skill wise Crossbones isn't outclassed. And Crossbones holds incredible advantages in the categories of strength and durability. As the fight begins Bruce will probably go for a couple punches, maybe a kick but these will be totally ineffective. And Batman lacks the skill and speed to dance around Crossbones to the extent that Cap did. Fairly soon Crossbones will land his first punch. This punch will launch Batman back dozens of feet. However, Bruce will struggle far more than Steve did to get back to his feet and keep fighting. He likely won't be able to do so before the next punch arrives and than the next and at this point Bruce will be to dazed to fight at all or do anything. And Crossbones will easily win the fight via KO.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:I will be doing things a little differently since we will be doing 2 posts each, I shall start my argument in this post.

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Theme

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Skill

In terms of skill, Bruce's best feat is probably his warehouse fight sequence where he takes on multiple armed men at once

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Now while he did use various weapons and gear in that fight, there is one sequence in particular which really shows off his skill. In this sequence he is surrounded by 4 men and fights them all at once, beating them all down.

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Now as to more technical showings of skill, we have this scene in his fight with Deadshot, here Batman targe's Deadshot's knee joint to destabilize him and knock him down.

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He also shows his keen eye to analyze fights in this scene, where he tells a losing fighter a tip to help him win and using that single tip the fighter is able to dominate the fight.

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Skill Counters

Here we see his skill displayed in his fight with Captain America in the elevator. He is able to kick Cap's arm and cause the magnetic cuff to attach to the elevator. And than after that point he was able to land an attack with his taser.

That isn't really impressive, Cap was trapped by the magnetic cuffs, so tagging him at that point would be expected.

But Rumlow didn't just land those hits while Cap had an arm tied behind his back. He was able to take on Cap later one on one. And he successfully landed two attacks along with dodging a punch.

Here we see that Crossbones with his suit is skilled and fast enough to successful tag Civil War Captain America in combat.

Now, these are both impressive showings, though I struggle to see how they have something to do with skill and not speed. Crossbones was using basic strikes against Cap, so skill was not at play here, it was his quickness and gear that allowed him to land his shots.

Also, I disagree with scaling to Cap's best feats here as we have seen Cap get tagged multiple times by Batroc at the start of their fight

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Ultron also haymakers Cap in the head in their fight sequence

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And neither Batroc nor Ultron is as fast or faster than Bucky or Black Panther. Now I am not saying that Crossbones' feat was bad or anything like that, I am just saying that it isn't as good as you are presenting it as. Not only that But Crossbones seems to be slower than Rumlow as Cap is able to dodge his attack when pinned down and in close range.

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Strength

I believe that Batman is near equals to Crossbones in terms of strength and striking. Bruce has feats of breaking through walls

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Throwing a man into a wall, breaking it

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Throwing a crate with one arm

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Punching this man so hard that his face smashes into the floor

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Giving this man a Rock Bottom so powerful that it shatters the floor (and makes the Rock sad).

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And throwing a Batarang so hard that it slices a gun

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Strength Counters

Here we see that Crossbones can break and launch a sealed door off it's hinges. This is impressive because that whole room is likely meant to contain dangerous biological chemicals.

While this is impressive, the door didn't seem to be particularly thick, so I don't think that this is a feat that Bruce can't emulate given his feats of easily breaking walls, the flooring and even a gun using his Batarang.

Here is what is likely his most impressive striking feat. He manages to punch Captain America 20-30 ft so hard that Cap went through a wooden object. And so hard that Cap was dazed to the point that it took several seconds to get up and he couldn't do so in time to block or dodge Crossbones next punch.

This is impressive and something I don't think Bruce can outright emulate. However, he can also punch a man multiple feet away

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If he can pressure Cap with his strength than I think it's fair to say He's a bit stronger than Batman.

Agreed, he is a bit stronger, but not insurmountably so. However, you are forgetting one fatal flaw Crossbones has in regards to his strength, he has to cock his fist. Every single time he lands a powerful shot he cocks his fist which your own scans reveal.

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This gives Bruce 3 advantages, 1. Quickness. He can strike more times than Crossbones can. 2. A tell. Every time Crossbones plans to strike Bruce with his fist he would need to cock his fist, something Bruce would easily catch. Meaning after the first strike, he will know exactly when Crossbones is about to strike and can dodge accordingly. 3. Strength. Yes, we both agree that Crossbones is a bit stronger than Bruce but that is with the aid of his gauntlets, without them, he is much weaker as shown in this scan where his uncocked strike only knocks Cap back a few feet instead of 20, and Cap recovers instantly.

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SoI would say that when uncocked he is slightly weaker than Batman, but when cocked he is slightly stronger.

Durability

This is the first category where I must wholly disagree with you because in your conclusion you say

And Crossbones holds incredible advantages in the categories of strength and durability.

But that simply is not the case. While Crossbones taking a punch from Cap was impressive, Batman took a backhand from Supes and was able to make himself sit upright and begin talking right after the hit.

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Now he was hurt after this, but Superman is hundreds of times stronger than Cap and it only took one badge scene to bring him back to 100%.

Not only that but after getting thrown into a metal wheel, and getting thrown across the room hard enough to break steel bars, he sits back up again and starts chatting away.

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Batman can also tank headshots from point blank with zero damage, something I don't think even Cap can do

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These feats are easily more impressive than Crossbones' which is only even impressive via scaling, but even then Batman's feat of taking a hit from Supes tops anything Crossbones has ever tanked, so I will skip the counters section.

Speed

It is really telling when you did not make a speed category for Crossbones, because it simply means that Crossbones is not impressive enough to warrant a speed section, this is bad news for him since Batman is faster than you might assume.

For starters, he is a proven aim dodger, here he aim dodges blasts from Parademons and gunfire from cops

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But more impressively, he was able to aim dodge Doomsday's attacks, which shows his reaction speeds

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He was also able to react to and catch a falling Flash

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But Bruce's greatest and most underrated feat has got to be the time he punched a blaster bolt out of air

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Now, I won't go out and claim that those blasters are bullet speed or anything, but this is clearly an impressive feat. One that I have only seen Thor match in the MCU.

Conclusion

Instead of putting my thoughts first, I will counter yours, since I like my conclusions to be the last part of my post.

Counter Conclusion

It's pretty simple and fairly straight forward. While I'll concede that Batman has a little more to go on skill wise Crossbones isn't outclassed. And Crossbones holds incredible advantages in the categories of strength and durability.

Disagree. Crossbones is at a disadvantage in terms of durability if anything, and while he does hold a sizeable strength advantage it isn't a large gap and it has it's caveats.

As the fight begins Bruce will probably go for a couple punches, maybe a kick but these will be totally ineffective.

I disagree, Crossbones does not have the feats to call batman's strikes ineffective.

And Batman lacks the skill and speed to dance around Crossbones to the extent that Cap did. Fairly soon Crossbones will land his first punch. This punch will launch Batman back dozens of feet. However, Bruce will struggle far more than Steve did to get back to his feet and keep fighting. He likely won't be able to do so before the next punch arrives and than the next and at this point Bruce will be to dazed to fight at all or do anything. And Crossbones will easily win the fight via KO.

I see, you are scaling to Cap. Because Batman cannot emulate exactly what Cap did, you think that means Crossbones wins, but that is not the case, Batman will fight differently than Cap did. Let me explain my take on the fight below

The Fight

Now, there are two things that make Batman differ from Cap. 1. His ruthlessness. And 2. His battlefield awareness. Just to prove this, here is a scan of Batman breaking a man's arm intentionally

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And here he uses the environment to get the drop on thugs entering through the floor and tricking a thug into shooting the floor where he left

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And here he uses a crate to his advantage

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This fighting style differs from Cap who fights clean and head on, as shown when he dropped his helmet and shield when Batroc requested it. With these two differences, I see the fight going this way, I will separate the fight into 4 parts, the start, the middle, the late game, and the end game (Note: This is not my strategy, it is just how I see the fight going based on each fighter's abilities and character)

  1. At the start of the fight Crossbones will attempt to take Batman head on, cocking his fist and attempting to strike, but unlike Cap (who was only tagged initially cause he was caught off guard), Batman will dodge the strike and then exchange blows with Crossbones, but again unlike Cap he is not a boxer, meaning he won't attempt to land head or body punches. Instead, he will attempt to get Crossbones off balance by aiming for the joints, much like he did against Deadshot, and thanks to his superior skill and speed, he will be able to get Crossbones down.
  2. Now with Crossbones down Batman will attempt to take him out by wailing on him, however, Crossbones will know how he can escape this takedown, he cocks his fist and hits Batman, launching him away. Both men then recover and get back up at roughly the same time.
  3. Both men then square off once again, now armed with more knowledge of the other man. This time Crossbones tries to catch Bruce off guard by attempting to pull one of these (but instead of a taser baton he uses his cocked fist) but Batman does not block like Cap, instead he grapples Crossbones' initial attack and uses it to disable his gauntlet and takedown Crossbones (compare this maneuver to Cap disabling the gauntlet for an idea). With Crossbones down again, Batman will once again wail on him.
  4. This will lead to the end of the fight, Crossbones will again try to escape using his powered up fist, but this time Bruce will know and catch the attack, disabling the gauntlet. Leaving Crossbones on the ground with no gauntlets, all taht is left is for Bruce to take him out.

Conclusion

Regardless of how the fight goes, I think Bruce will win for the following reasons

  1. He is more skilled.
  2. He is comparable in strength does not need to power up his strikes like Crossbones
  3. He is more durable.
  4. He is faster.
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#35 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v.

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#36 Posted by LJayG (1442 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: That was AWESOME. Especially that scan when he punched a laser bolt out of thin air.

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#37 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@ljayg: Thank you. And yes it was a cool scan.

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#38 Posted by Subline (9363 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool

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#39 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

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Counters to skill

Now while he did use various weapons and gear in that fight, there is one sequence in particular which really shows off his skill. In this sequence he is surrounded by 4 men and fights them all at once, beating them all down.

This is certainly very impressive and I don't want to lowball it but I do want to note 1 thing. Bruce was tagged in this exchange.

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Now you could argue that Batman simply allowed himself to be tagged in that instance because he knew his cowl would protect him. But on the other hand there is nothing to say he would have avoided that attack without his cowl. And if he didn't he would have likely been cut severely on the back of the head and than he would have likely been beaten.

I don't think this exchange is comparable to Cap going through all the Shield strike agents without being tagged once. And on top of that while neither have great feats if we go buy implied standing than the strike agents have a little more going for them than the mercenaries that Batman fought. The strike team was the group that they put Cap and Natasha in. And they seemed to be the primary group SHIELD used for combative situations(such as saving the hostages from Batroc and his mercenaries). They should be better on paper than the mercenaries who IIRC the only thing that imply their general standing in universe is that Lex hired them.

Now as to more technical showings of skill, we have this scene in his fight with Deadshot, here Batman targe's Deadshot's knee joint to destabilize him and knock him down.

Not bad but if I'm not mistaken Deadshot's best skill feat is taking down a couple of FBI agents or something similar to that. Taking him down so easily is very impressive but I doubt it's comparable to giving Captain America a decent fight.

He also shows his keen eye to analyze fights in this scene, where he tells a losing fighter a tip to help him win and using that single tip the fighter is able to dominate the fight.

Not much to say here. It does show that he can analyze and opponent very well.

Counter to Skill Counters

That isn't really impressive, Cap was trapped by the magnetic cuffs, so tagging him at that point would be expected.

It isn't as impressive as taking him on while he had both hands. But it is impressive because it shows how far superior Rumlow is to the other Strike agents. Who where unable to tag Cap and where being defeated regardless of the fact that Cap had an arm locked to the wall.

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Now, these are both impressive showings, though I struggle to see how they have something to do with skill and not speed. Crossbones was using basic strikes against Cap, so skill was not at play here, it was his quickness and gear that allowed him to land his shots.

It's not complex martial arts but I would argue that it is a skill showing. He is blocking dodging and landing attacks. I doubt he is faster than Cap so he would need to be very skilled for those to successfully land.

Regardless of whether or not we call it skill or speed Captain America is both more skilled and faster than Batman. I'll expound on Cap's speed a little later in the counters to speed section.

Also, I disagree with scaling to Cap's best feats here as we have seen Cap get tagged multiple times by Batroc at the start of their fight

I don't think that's a good comparison. Captain America was unprepared for that attack. Batroc surprised him while he was talking trying communicate on his intercom to Natasha.

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He blocked the first attack but wasn't prepared to totally brace himself so he was knocked backwards and off balance. Than Batroc kept him off balance and this left him open for further attacks. Still only one of those actually clearly landed. This one.

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The rest seemed to be blocked.

And as soon as Cap got back on balance he casually blocked and dodged all of Batroc's attacks with ease.

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Cap casually avoided everything and just straight up wrecked Batroc.

Furthermore I disagree with utilizing Batroc as a low showing for Cap. Batroc doesn't have any feats other than fighting Cap. And that is the only thing by which we can judge him. His feats against Cap shouldn't he utilized as if they are automatically interchangeable with any other high level peak human. And we shouldn't assume that others can do what he did to Cap just because he did it. He doesn't have any thing else to judge him by. Which means it can't really be a low showing

Ultron also haymakers Cap in the head in their fight sequence

I don't think this is a good comparison either. Ultron doesn't have many clear reaction or speed feats of his own but he is an Iron Man level opponent and could tangle with Iron Man in combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR2ucojhbJg&t

Iron Man's suits in general aren't exactly slow.

Take an older suit for instance.

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Or the one that many consider to be his weakest.

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On top of this Ultron is massive. He's like 8+ ft tall.

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He would have an extreme height and reach advantage over Cap. And he is likely pretty fast. At least with scaling.

And neither Batroc nor Ultron is as fast or faster than Bucky or Black Panther. Now I am not saying that Crossbones' feat was bad or anything like that, I am just saying that it isn't as good as you are presenting it as. Not only that But Crossbones seems to be slower than Rumlow as Cap is able to dodge his attack when pinned down and in close range.

True enough on the part of Cap dodging his attacks. But that is beyond my point. Cap can dodge and block attacks very easily from people that are portrayed as roughly his equal. And while he did dodge or block most of Crossbones attacks he did the same against The Winter Soldier in their first fight and Black Panther in their fight. It's a part of his fighting style and the fact that Crossbones landed hits at all shows how fast he must be.

Cap is a decent bit harder to tag than Bruce so If he can hit Cap than it will be easier for him to do so against Batman.

Counters to strength

I believe that Batman is near equals to Crossbones in terms of strength and striking. Bruce has feats of breaking through walls

That's not totally unimpressive but that looks like regular drywall to me. Which I don't think is that durable. I'm struggling to find a specific durability for it online but I know have damaged drywall myself as a young child(got in trouble for it too). Wouldn't be tough for Cap to replicate things far superior to that. And Crossbones seems to be at least a little stronger as Cap.

Throwing a man into a wall, breaking it

Punching this man so hard that his face smashes into the floor

And throwing a Batarang so hard that it slices a gun

All these feats are impressive. There is no doubt that Bruce is among the strongest live action comic book peak humans. But still Cap is massively stronger than Bruce and Crossbones pressured him with his strength. I'll just use this motorcycle feat.

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Cap threw a motorcycle 20-30 ft with enough force to cave in a jeep and stop it's momentum. Now you might say that he just used the motorcycle's momentum to do this. But if you watch the scene at one fourth speed you can see that the motorcycle came to a stop before Cap threw it.

https://youtu.be/UG7Q0X4DuzM?t=112

And even if we assumed that Cap used the motorcycle's own momentum the feat would still be way above Bruce's paygrade. I really want to prove this point so let me go into it. Consider the weight of a jeep. I found this article for the weight of jeeps.

Here are curb weights for a few of the most popular Jeep models:

  • A 2010 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited four-door has a curb weight of 4,100 pounds.
  • A 2009 Jeep Commander Limited has a curb weight of 5,199 pounds.
  • A 2006 Jeep Liberty has a curb weight of 4,033 pounds.
  • A 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 2WD has a curb weight of 4,254 pounds.
  • A 2011 Jeep Patriot has a curb weight of 3,091 pounds,

Now this jeep seemed to be a military jeep so it was probably heavy. And it had 4 guys on it that where fully decked out in gear. So probably add another 800-1000 lbs. And than it had a huge gun so probably a bit more.

According to the Internet movie cars database the motorcycle Cap threw is a 2014 Harley Davidson Street 750. Which according to Motorcycle-USA.com has a dry weight of 480 lbs.

Year2014
ManufacturerHarley-Davidson
ModelStreet 750
Engine TypeV-twin Revolution X
Engine Displacement749cc
Bore StrokeNA
CoolingLiquid-Cooled
Compression RatioNA
Fuel SystemNA
IgnitionNA
Starting SystemNA
TransmissionSix Speed
Final DriveNA
Rake TrailNA
Seat HeightNA
Wheelbase59.5 in.
Front SuspensionSpecially Tuned Suspension
Rear SuspensionSpecially Tuned Suspension
Front BrakeSingle Caliper Disc
Rear BrakeSingle Caliper Disc
Front Tire17
Rear TireNA
Fuel CapacityNA
Dry Weight480 lbs. (Wet)
MSRP7500

Now the one Cap has would probably weigh slightly more due to the weight of the fluids and gas in it. But still probably around 500 lbs. When we see them driving towards the jeep they are moving at similar speeds.

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Which means that the motorcycle, weighing probably around 1/10 of what the jeep weighs, would not have nearly enough force to stop it on its own. So no matter which way you look at that even if Cap used the motorcycles force as well, the majority of that force in this feat is coming from Cap's own strength. The motorcycle would not have been able to cave in that jeep or stop it with it's own momentum. And on top of this there is the fact that Cap threw it 30 ft so a significant portion of the force from the motorcycle would have been gone before it reached the car.

I think this just totally blows anything Bruce has done out of the water. But I'll use another feat that I think shows how far Captain America and Batman are separated in this category.

Here we see Cap overpower and rip apart Ultron bots.

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They are in turn strong enough to casually swim through concrete and overturn cars by standing up.

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Ultron bots are already stronger than Batman but they are also bulletproof and extremely durable as I've showed in my first post. Yet Cap can rip them limb from limb.

This is the person Crossbones pressured with his strength. The strength of Crossbones and Batman are not comparable. They are far apart.

Punching this man so hard that his face smashes into the floor

That's again very impressive for a peak human but I don't see what about this comes close to comparing to Crossbones striking power.

Counters to Strength Counters

While this is impressive, the door didn't seem to be particularly thick, so I don't think that this is a feat that Bruce can't emulate given his feats of easily breaking walls, the flooring and even a gun using his Batarang.

I don't see how that's close at all. Bruce broke through a very thin wall made of drywall. And in the other feat he managed to throw a human through a thin layer of concrete. I don't see how that compares to punching a door of what looks like a metal frame with enough force to send it 15 ft and bend the metal of the door.

This is impressive and something I don't think Bruce can outright emulate. However, he can also punch a man multiple feet away

Yes and while this feat is impressive it's not quite as much as you might think it looks.

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If you look at this scene closley you can see that the whole in the ground wasn't that far from Batman

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It's only like 8 ft from Batman. And while the force of the guy moving towards Batman would make this feat more impressive. You can see that Bruce didn't actually punch him straight back in the direction he was going. It was at an angle.

Agreed, he is a bit stronger, but not insurmountably so. However, you are forgetting one fatal flaw Crossbones has in regards to his strength, he has to cock his fist. Every single time he lands a powerful shot he cocks his fist which your own scans reveal.

True enough but even if Bruce knows that Crossbones is going to try and punch him that doesn't mean that the punch won't land.

This gives Bruce 3 advantages, 1. Quickness. He can strike more times than Crossbones can. 2. A tell. Every time Crossbones plans to strike Bruce with his fist he would need to cock his fist, something Bruce would easily catch. Meaning after the first strike, he will know exactly when Crossbones is about to strike and can dodge accordingly. 3. Strength. Yes, we both agree that Crossbones is a bit stronger than Bruce but that is with the aid of his gauntlets, without them, he is much weaker as shown in this scan where his uncocked strike only knocks Cap back a few feet instead of 20, and Cap recovers instantly.

1. Speed wise depends on what you are referring to. In terms of how fast they punch I wouldn't give any advantage to Bruce. If anything Crossbones has the advantage due to tagging Cap. They are at worst comparable. If we are talking about maneuverability I would give Batman the advantage because Crossbones doesn't seem to really walk that fast in the suit.

2. That tell simply informs Bruce that Crossbones is going to try and punch him. That doesn't mean that that punch wouldn't land. Throughout the fight Crossbones is always going to by trying to hit Batman. That's a given. On top of that looking at it I'm pretty sure Crossbones punches only uncock if he hits something with the full force of a punch. Which means that even if Bruce dodges a cocked punch, the gauntlet is still cocked and ready to release a full powered punch. He would have to dodge around Crossbones's punches and not be tagged at all to avoid this hit.

3. Are you talking striking strength or strength? Either way Crossbones has far greater pure strength due to being at worst comparable and likely even stronger than Captain America. He also has greater striking feats. Perhaps he needs to cock his gauntlets but he can easily do so and simply wait until he actually tags Bruce. Also the punch where he launches Cap into those shelves is still impressive and good enough to hurt Batman. While he recovered quickly it caused Cap to grunt in pain and ragdolled him. So it will likely do worse to Bruce. And it will certainly hurt him.

Also I want to drop one more striking feat that I think is notable.

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Here Crossbones is able to stagger Cap to the side and he didn't even land a straight punch. It hit Cap on the side of the gauntlet and Cap actually blocked it but it still had such force that it caused Cap's body to be staggered to the side. If such a hit lands on Bruce it will certainly hurt him and probably knock him down. And this shows the level of difficulty Batman would have with blocking an attack.

Counters to Durablity

But that simply is not the case. While Crossbones taking a punch from Cap was impressive, Batman took a backhand from Supes and was able to make himself sit upright and begin talking right after the hit.

Now he was hurt after this, but Superman is hundreds of times stronger than Cap and it only took one badge scene to bring him back to 100%.

I think you're using bad scaling. When dealing with situations where street levers tank hits from high tiers I think it is best to judge the feat visually rather than scale that high tiers strength. By you're logic Captain America can survive a punch from Thanos who was able to wreck the hulk in like 10 hits. Or Black Widow was able to tank a back hand from the Hulk. I don't think it's good to scale characters like this. And I wouldn't use any of those feats beyond what we visually see. I have to ask you do you really believe that Batman can tank hits from Superman?

I would judge the scene visually and it is very impressive. This feat is the sole reason that I don't see Crossbones one shotting Batman. Because Batman was able to get up after being launched 30 ft hard enough to dent the door of a car. But still this hit hurt him and Crossbones hits with comparable if not greater force.

Not only that but after getting thrown into a metal wheel, and getting thrown across the room hard enough to break steel bars, he sits back up again and starts chatting away.

That's impressive but not nearly enough. Mainly because being punched is far more impressive than being thrown. With the punch you have all of the force concentrated straight on you're body threw a small surface area. Being thrown you just hit into an object with a certain amount of force. Batman hitting those isn't comparable at all to being punched with a similar amount of force. I imagine real humans can withstand being thrown 15-20 ft . But if you punched one that distance they would probably be severely injured or die.

Batman can also tank headshots from point blank with zero damage, something I don't think even Cap can do

The piercing aspect of a bullet would kill Cap. But as far as feats If Cap had a bulletproof cowl than he could certainly tank a bullet from the blunt force perspective. To make a comparison I already made above Ultron bots can straight up no sell being hit by bullets.

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They aren't even flinching. And while this isn't point blank it is with AK-47's. Which are likely more powerful than hand guns.

And remember Cap one shotted them.

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To make another comparison T'Challa was able to straight up no sell fully automatic gunfire without flinching or moving at all.

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Yet Cap could launch his entire body dozens of feet away with ease.

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Cap certainly should be able to tank his own hits so yeah give him Bruce's cowl and he replicates that with ease.

Also I want to remind you of just how well Crossbones was tanking Cap's punches. We have this here which I already showed above.

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The second gif may not look like a punch but if you watch the video at one half speed you can see that it was.

But I really want to draw you're attention to this.

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Cap hit Crossbones multiple times in the mid area and he barley even moved at all. That is about one step below straight up no selling. If he can do that with Cap's hits than Bruce will struggle greatly to damage him permanently.

These feats are easily more impressive than Crossbones' which is only even impressive via scaling, but even then Batman's feat of taking a hit from Supes tops anything Crossbones has ever tanked, so I will skip the counters section.

You're right in order to make Crossbones's durability look very impressive I have to scale him. But in this circumstance I don't see why I shouldn't. Crossbones is clearly meant to be Cap level physically. He basically overpowered him and consistently hurt him and proved a serious challenge. The only reason he doesn't have great visual durability feats is because Cap couldn't launch him outside of that final kick and barley staggered him with his punches.

I don't see how me trying to scale Crossbones to Cap is comparable to trying to scale Batman to Superman. You're talking about two street lever's against each other vs a street leveler and a high tier should should obviously be able to one shot him if he wanted.

Counters to speed

It is really telling when you did not make a speed category for Crossbones, because it simply means that Crossbones is not impressive enough to warrant a speed section, this is bad news for him since Batman is faster than you might assume.

You're right because like unto the durability section Crossbones doesn't look that impressive without scaling. He didn't have time to acquire lots of feats against a verity of different opponents and get reaction feats to projectiles ans such things. But it is clear he is fast considering he could land hits against Captain America. Who is faster and more skilled than Batman. I'm not going to argue that Crossbones would be dodging or blocking a whole bunch of Bruce's attacks. But I also don't see why he would struggle greatly to tag Bruce when he has tagged someone faster and more skilled.

For starters, he is a proven aim dodger, here he aim dodges blasts from Parademons and gunfire from cops

So is Cap.

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But more impressively, he was able to aim dodge Doomsday's attacks, which shows his reaction speeds

That's cool but just a little before his fight with Crossbones Captain America was able to react to a grenade.

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According to the Internet Movie Firearms Database this is a Mk19 grenade launcher. Which sends grenades at a speed of 750-790 ft/s.

He was also able to react to and catch a falling Flash

Sure but he just needs to be fast enough to stop Flash from falling. So however fast gravity would have made Flash move. That's certainly an impressive feat but it doesn't seem too crazy to me.

But Bruce's greatest and most underrated feat has got to be the time he punched a blaster bolt out of air

Now, I won't go out and claim that those blasters are bullet speed or anything, but this is clearly an impressive feat. One that I have only seen Thor match in the MCU.

The problem with this is I don't think there are any really impressive speed feats for these blasters. People say that Thor reacting to Loki's scepter is impressive because that blast was able to reach past a skyscraper and seems to reach the clouds in about a second.

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Or this Ultron bot blast that went a significant distance in less than a second.

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Parademons blaster's on the other hand don't have any actually impressive things going for them. IIRC this is about the general speed that they seemed to move.

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That's not really fast.

Cap on the other hand can react to repulsor's.

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Here you can see him move his shield after it's fired.

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Repulsor's from this same suit where able to shot arrows out of the sky easily.

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Counters to Counter Conclusion

Disagree. Crossbones is at a disadvantage in terms of durability if anything, and while he does hold a sizeable strength advantage it isn't a large gap and it has it's caveats.

I'd have to disagree with you. Crossbones nearly no selling Cap's punches should place him above Bruce in the durability department. And I haven't see anything from Bruce that comes even close to pressuring Cap against a wall strength wise.

I disagree, Crossbones does not have the feats to call batman's strikes ineffective.

Beyond maybe the final kick none of Cap's hits really did much of anything. Bruce hits with significantly less force than Cap. So I don't think his strikes will be too effective.

And here he uses a crate to his advantage

He used his grappling hock for that and that wouldn't damage Crossbones. The best something like that could do is momentarily block his vision.

I see, you are scaling to Cap. Because Batman cannot emulate exactly what Cap did, you think that means Crossbones wins, but that is not the case, Batman will fight differently than Cap did. Let me explain my take on the fight below

The Fight

Now, there are two things that make Batman differ from Cap. 1. His ruthlessness. And 2. His battlefield awareness. Just to prove this, here is a scan of Batman breaking a man's arm intentionally

This fighting style differs from Cap who fights clean and head on, as shown when he dropped his helmet and shield when Batroc requested it. With these two differences, I see the fight going this way, I will separate the fight into 4 parts, the start, the middle, the late game, and the end game (Note: This is not my strategy, it is just how I see the fight going based on each fighter's abilities and character)

Honestly Cap isn't much if at all less likely to go for joints and snap them as compares to Batman. He snapped Ultron bots arms at the joint. He even went for a knee strike against Batroc.

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We see him go for the knee on multiple occasions.

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He'll snap an opponents wrists.

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He snapped Bucky's arm.

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And funnily enough he even did snap Crossbones arm towards the end of their fight.

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His reasoning for not doing so up unto this point is probably because he didn't see an opening and likely wouldn't have been able to land such an attack. He only did so once he was in a position where Crossbones arm was stuck in the wall behind him and he could easily snap it. Bruce most likely would not be in such a position. It is very unlikely that Crossbones would have him against a wall and than get his arm stuck in the wall since he doesn't have blades in this fight.

And even if he could I also think there is a legitimate chance that Batman doesn't use a joint attack early in the fight. He didn't seem to use any against Parademons. Partially due to the fact that they where pressuring him. They are the closest comparison to Crossbones in terms of strength and physicality that Batman has. So I think there is a decent chance that Batman wouldn't even use such attacks soon in a fight. And unless he does before the first cocked punch lands he won't have any further opportunity to do so. He'll be too hurt to prepare for further attacks.

The gif above also shows something that I neglected to mention in my previous post. Crossbones's excellent pain tolerance. We see it in the gif above because he had his arm snapped but continued fighting for a little bit afterwards. We also see that he is totally unaffected by Widow's stingers.

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"I don't work like that no more"

This is important because even if Batman managed to snap one of his joints or bones or does something that would typically cause pain to an opponent there is a good chance that Crossbones will be able to fight through it without significant inconvenience.

  1. At the start of the fight Crossbones will attempt to take Batman head on, cocking his fist and attempting to strike, but unlike Cap (who was only tagged initially cause he was caught off guard), Batman will dodge the strike and then exchange blows with Crossbones, but again unlike Cap he is not a boxer, meaning he won't attempt to land head or body punches. Instead, he will attempt to get Crossbones off balance by aiming for the joints, much like he did against Deadshot, and thanks to his superior skill and speed, he will be able to get Crossbones down.

I know that Cap was initially caught off guard. That's why I haven't used that feat as a skill or speed showing for Crossbones. But once Cap got his baring and rose to his feet Crossbones was still able to tag him in less than 10 seconds. Bruce is less evasive than Cap so it will be easier for Crossbones to do so.

I don't think it's a guarantee at all that Batman will go for joint attacks instead of straight up punches and kicks. But even if he wanted to he probably won't have a clear opening for such an attack. Cap who is more skilled and faster than Bruce. And has also used plenty of such joint attacks didn't seem to have an opening until Crossbones's arm was in the perfect positioning for it. It is very unlikely that this will happen during this fight. I also don't see how Crossbones is going struggle greatly with hitting Batman. I mean Bruce might dodge a punch or two but Crossbones isn't going to have such a hard time tagging him like he did with Cap. He'll be able to get a hit in fairly soon imo.

  1. Now with Crossbones down Batman will attempt to take him out by wailing on him, however, Crossbones will know how he can escape this takedown, he cocks his fist and hits Batman, launching him away. Both men then recover and get back up at roughly the same time.

Even assuming it played out to where Batman got Crossbones on the ground like you are saying. If he punches Batman with a cocked hit there is pretty much no chance that Bruce will get up before Crossbones reaches him and hits him again. Remember Cap struggled greatly to get up after his first punch. And he is much more durable than Bruce.

  1. Both men then square off once again, now armed with more knowledge of the other man. This time Crossbones tries to catch Bruce off guard by attempting to pull one of these (but instead of a taser baton he uses his cocked fist) but Batman does not block like Cap, instead he grapples Crossbones' initial attack and uses it to disable his gauntlet and takedown Crossbones (compare this maneuver to Cap disabling the gauntlet for an idea). With Crossbones down again, Batman will once again wail on him.

Grappling won't work for a couple reasons.

1. If Batman tries to grapple with Crossbones he will be horribly overpowered. In the scenario you described he would have to be able to catch Crossbones punch without being overpowered by it. This is not going to happen. Crossbones simply hits too hard. It's more likely that Batman's entire body will be pushed away or he will be knocked off balance. Kinda like this.

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On top of that he would have to have the speed to actually make sure he dodges that attack. I'm not so sure about that considering he's not close to as good at dodging attacks as Cap is(See Black Panther or Bucky).

2. Another problem is in you're comparison to how Cap defeated Crossbones. You should note that there where pretty significant circumstances that aided Cap. That being that Crossbones arm was stuck in the concrete. That is probably not going to happen here. It's more likely that if somehow Bruce did manage to catch a hit from Crossbones(which likely won't happen)he would be headbutted and than punched away before he could do anything. Like this.

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Cap used the momentary advantage of Crossbones arm being stuck in the concrete. Bruce will not be able to exploit this because Crossbones won't get stuck.

  1. This will lead to the end of the fight, Crossbones will again try to escape using his powered up fist, but this time Bruce will know and catch the attack, disabling the gauntlet. Leaving Crossbones on the ground with no gauntlets, all taht is left is for Bruce to take him out.

Again he isn't catching attacks from someone that hits this hard. Where talking about someone who's strength and striking(especially striking) exceed Super Soldier level.

Conclusion

I believe Crossbones will win for this primary reason. Batman doesn't have any significant advantages.

While I'll admit Batman has an edge in the skill department. Crossbones is skilled and fast enough to compete with an individual that is more skilled and faster than Bruce. The categories of strength and durability aren't remotely close. Crossbones is far stronger than Batman to the point that his striking power will enable him to put Bruce down in a fairly low number of blows. Crossbones is far more durable than Batman to the point that regular strikes are likely to be mostly ineffective. It's this fact that Batman doesn't have any significant advantages and Crossbones does that gives him the overall advantage in my humble opinion.

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#40 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going by quick.

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#41 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Kevd4wg (13251 posts) - - Show Bio

AMCU in a CaV, definitely T4V

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#44 Posted by ThunderPrince (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

AMCU in a CaV, definitely T4V

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Lol. You are faster than I thought you would be.

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#46 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Lol. You are faster than I thought you would be.

Me too. I thought I would wait a while. But it's hard for me to do other things when I know someone has sent a response to me. I lack the patience to wait.

I spent a decent while on that post earlier today. These CAV's are tough. But fun as well. Looking forward to you're response.

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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:
@major_hellstrom said:

@amcu: Lol. You are faster than I thought you would be.

Me too. I thought I would wait a while. But it's hard for me to do other things when I know someone has sent a response to me. I lack the patience to wait.

I spent a decent while on that post earlier today. These CAV's are tough. But fun as well. Looking forward to you're response.

Yeah, your post looks like it took some effort feels like I am fighting Cap tho

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#48 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, your post looks like it took some effort feels like I am fighting Cap tho

This is definitely true. I did use a lot of scaling.

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#49 Posted by hulkuberstomp (1791 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:Nice!

Rumlow is even above BW

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#50 Posted by Amcu (17401 posts) - - Show Bio