Winner Subline-CAV-DCEU Batman (Subline) vs DCU Robin (Death4bunnies)

1) Grapple Gun

The Grapple Gun is an iconic gadget of Batman's, used pretty commonly. However, it has multiple uses, one of which, is that it can shoot out a large expanding Net that can restrain the Superhuman Parademons:

This is essentially an instant win whenever the duo are near a wall, Bruce can just easily incapacitate Robin. [Parademons can rip apart and cause critical damage to the armored Batmobile]

2) Bombs

DCEU Batman is a killer, that much is certain, from him mowing down thugs with turrets to blowing them up in explosions, he has no limits. He'll have no problem blowing up Robin:

This is also an instant-win, Parademons are superhumans and logically scale above Batman in durability (who himself is more durable than Robin, which I'll go over). If the bombs can one shot them Robin will get rekt too.

1) Strength

High End---Matches strength with nuclear dad, a superhuman capable of ripping car door off its hinges.

Bruce could contend with Parademons, physically, who can rip apart the armored Batmobile (as linked earlier), a much more impressive showing considering the Batmobile is an armored vehicle.

2) Striking Power

A much more significant aspect than strength, and something you neglected. Bruce can send grown men flying through the air with his strikes (1, 2, 3).

3) Durability

High End---Tackled through a window and crumples a car.

He was knocked out from this, Bruce can tank throws from the superhuman Parademons and large sized explosions point blank, with little to no injury. Much more impressive.

4) Speed

High End---Dodges a blast from Dr Light.

Unquantifiable speed, no reason it's any more impressive than punching a Parademon blast out of the air.

5) Skill

• "12 armed men" Feat- Heavily gadget-oriented
• Corridor Fight- Beating up a couple of security guards at a time isn't as good as doing a genuine 4v1 with well trained mercenaries
  
• Dick vs Organization Agents - It was a 2v1, then the 3rd guy appears in the end, then he proceeds to get stomped when he has to take on 4 at once
  
• Dick > Jason > 6 Cops - Seems like they had trouble tracking him considering they were wondering around confused, also he goes from cop to cop, this isn't a 6v1 in the way you might be implying
• Dick > Jason > Dr. Light - Dr. Light is just a semi-fat brute, he has no CQC feats

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Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)

I think this is the best skill feat from Dick that you've provided, so feel free to ignore the bullet pointed ones so we can focus on this to keep the debate concise (I'd prefer if you do this too), or if you want to bring up a new better feat we can discuss that instead (basically whichever feat you think is his best skill feat).

She does a 3v1 at one point (we see on the CCTV) but before that they were trying to shoot her, she takes out one then does the 3v1. This is still solidly below Batman's 4v1 with the Mercenaries due to him going up against better opponents and 1 more opponent. So Batman > Rose too.

Harley Quinn also has feats like soloing a bunch of inmates, cops and Black Mask thugs in Birds of Prey, and she's tiers below Batman (obviously).

Robin sneaking up on thugs and beating them down doesn't come close to Bruce's stealth showings. He can disappear and appear in an instant, and more impressively avoid Kryptonian Senses like Superman's and Doomsday's. If anyone's getting stealth attacked, it's Robin, not Bruce. But a stealth encounter is unlikely considering they start a mere 9 meters away inside of a warehouse.

• Bruce has multiple gadgets that allow him to win instantly
• Bruce has better strength, striking power and durability
• Bruce is just as skilled if not more (based solely on the feats provided so far), though based on my own knowledge I think he might be slightly less skilled, but it wouldn't matter because the strength, striking power and durability gap are much greater, and Bruce also has one-shot gadgets
• Bruce has much better stealth

Because I have Robin so well laid out in my first post, lll just make direct counters.

Batmans grapple net.

(Lime) This is essentially an instant win whenever the duo are near a wall,

Robin isnt going to stand in front of what appears to be a large gun...Even if people can't accept he has low end bullet timing, he aim dodges all the time(even from shots fired by Deathstoke)....Im gonna heavily doubt that net gun is faster than a Dr light blast, even visually; when Dr light shoots at Robin 2 its faster.(if you want I can find a frame rate for Dr lights blast)

Kinda brings us to our next point...

(Lime) Unquantifiable speed, no reason it's any more impressive than punching a Parademon blast out of the air.

Is this ^^ a Snyder Cut feat?? Honest question, because if it is... Id think it would be fair for me to bring in Nightwing skill feats.

(D4B) High End---Matches strength with nuclear dad, a superhuman capable of ripping car door off its hinges.

(Lime) Bruce could contend with Parademons, physically, who can rip apart the armored Batmobile (as linked earlier), a much more impressive showing considering the Batmobile is an armored vehicle.

Ye I agree thats nominally better, tho im not sure the hinges of the bat mobile would be armored... its a edge but not a very large one, they are near equals in strength.

(Lime) A much more significant aspect than strength, and something you neglected. Bruce can send grown men flying through the air with his strikes (1, 2, 3).

I don't know what you think flying through the air is, but those guys don't move more than a feet feet if that.

I mean come on even Hawk hits people further than that.

Robin not only has similar sticking with his fists and kicks, but he breaks bones of humans regularly, and below he rocks and breaks the bones of the nuclear family that could No sell ^^ Hawks blows and tank hits from Starfire.

and has his bow staff that break can break the bones of the Nuclear family.

I want to do the next three counters together.

Bombs, Robins Dura, and Speed.

Bombs.

(Lime)If the bombs can one shot them Robin will get rekt too.

Dura.

(D4B) High End---Tackled through a window and crumples a car.

(Lime) He was knocked out from this, Bruce can tank throws from the superhuman Parademons and large sized explosions point blank, with little to no injury. Much more impressive.

Speed.

(D4B) High End---Dodges a blast from Dr Light.

(Lime) Unquantifiable speed, no reason it's any more impressive than punching a Parademon blast out of the air.

The reason Im dealing with all three of these categories at the same time is because Robin has dealt with all three at the same time.

Bombs.

Notice that Robin reacted to the bomb, and only ran towards it because Jerhico, also notice that Robin recovers in time to stop Slades blow.

Dura.

Immediately after recovering from that bomb Slade stabs and beats Robin with his staff Batman doesnt have a staff or blades and Slade can fight wonder girl and busts concrete blocks)^^ And Robin recovers again, dropping smoke.

Then after all that beating and being stabbing in the leg and chest... Robin still aim dodges gunfire from Slade, then times a knife throw.

Those three gifs ^^ happened one right after another.

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That should show Robin can deal with the bombs that have a delay.

That should show extreme Dura, (tanking tons of hits from a Superhuman with a bladed bow staff.)

And that should show that even after tanking a severe beating Robin still has speed feats above the level of Batman.

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That was ^^^ a much younger Robin.

Again you didnt show a single skill feat for Batman, I've shown Robin skill a bunch of ways from beating up numbered fodder, to beating Rose, and Jason, all the way hanging with Deathstroke with and without gears.

(Lime) But a stealth encounter is unlikely considering they start a mere 9 meters away inside of a warehouse.

You may want to reread the OP, we start on opposite ends of the warehouse, thats always been the parameters of this CAV.

(D4B)Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)

(Lime) I think this is the best skill feat from Dick that you've provided, so feel free to ignore the bullet pointed ones so we can focus on this to keep the debate concise (I'd prefer if you do this too)

No, why would I agree to this ridiculousness? You basically ignored and told the readers to ignore my skill feats while not providing any of your own...

Like Dicks 12 vs 1 without getting touched is very visually impressive but you discount it because he has gear, like batman only skill feats(which you have yet to provide) dont come from gear. Dick didnt get touched a single time in that fight vs armed men, compared to Batmans only skill fight where he was getting shot in the head and tagged repeatedly.

So I showed that Solo's 10 in a corridor. (Without his gears)...but this should be ignored because....

Beating up a couple of security guards at a time isn't as good as doing a genuine 4v1 with well trained mercenaries

This is pure lowball, and insane that we'd ignore this feat(which I purposefully included to show Grayson without gears), Grayson not only solod 10 in a tight corridor, but he was heavily drugged, the scientists said it was enough to kill a normal man...Do you have a gearless batman feat? Or does these arbitrary lowball only apply to Robiin where he and he alone has to show feats with gear, and without gear, and against named opponents with feats, and untouched a greater number of fodder...but Batman doesnt have to show skill feats outside of punching a girl who just got in a crash?

I dont think that^^ is fair skill scaling, and I think that Robin clearly has the better skill feats.

From the fodder bust feats above, to actually beating named featted opponents in fair combat.

Is more skilled than Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to (solo 6 GPD cops.)

Clowns Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to solo Dr Light.)

Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)

Batman hasn't beat named character withs feats such as these, he hasn't performed as well against fodder(12 v 1 without being touched), he doesn't have a gearlesss fodder feat(10 v 1 without gears), and the even choreography show robin as more skilled doing flips and such.

Robin takes a kick from Dad

Dad (armed with a hammer) Mom (armed with a electric knife) attack both attacks are successfully deflected by Grayson.

Grayson hits mom staggering her, and blocks 2 blows from Dads hammer and pushes dad.

Grayson blacks the hammer with the Birdcomputer, hits Dad in thee face then delivers a roundhouse kick to moms face flooring her.........

..... I won't breakdown the whole fight blow but unarmed Grayson fights pretty evenly with the 2 even breaking Moms arm (she snaps it back in place) before getting kicked out the window to crumpled the car.

Grayson then goes to get his gear.

After he returns geared up Robin takes on all 4 members of the family....

he deals bone breaking blows with his staff, and shows incredible skill redirecting a whip from one family member to another, and impressive improvisation stabbing the Dad with his broken staff.

Again these are explicit Superhumans with very good raw strength and durability, and a decent healing factor...

These are enhanced individuals using drugs to enhance there physicals, they are capable of no selling hits from Hawk and Dove and tanking hits from Starfire without injury, they could stagger Starfire with normal hits, and can near KO her by hitting her with a car door.

I didnt add this as just another showing of skill and brutality, tho it is that; I added this to show Grayson ability to harm even Superhumans with his unarmed blows; and to show how devastating his staff can be.

Wow, that was kinda a short opener from Subline.. I neatly laid out high end and low end physical feats, and showed half a dozen skill feats against both named and unnamed characters. I even posted skilled feats for the named characters, and showed the skilled level and numbers of the fodder.

Yeah I didn't feel the need to make a lengthy post, I said all I wanted to with the amount I wrote and I believe I addressed all major parts of your post.

I just want the voters to keep in mind how much Lime left unaddressed, I dont see a single skill feat from Batman in his post; except maybe scaling above Harley(who he punched only after she got in a major car accident, put her head through window, and was underwater for a full minute.)

Not sure what I left unaddressed, if I'm honest. I brought up two skill showings - Bruce's 4v1 and scaling above Harley Quinn, we both know he's limited in the feats he has, but amount of feats doesn't matter, only how good the feat is.

Link to Batman punching a female car crash victim so we all can see how Batman doesnt skill scale.

If this is the best skill showing that Lime is gonna show for Batman I do not know how this is a contest...Knocking out a uber skilled Harley who's stuck halfway out a car windshield that she put her face through at high speeds in no way shows Batman is more skilled than Grayson.

Just to make this clear, are you insisting that Harley Quinn is a more skilled combatant than Bruce Wayne? I feel that such a bold and unconventional statement needs to be clarified.

I'll address this in detail later, because you brought it up later in your post where the actual debate is.

Net Gun

Robin isnt going to stand in front of what appears to be a large gun...Even if people can't accept he has low end bullet timing, he aim dodges all the time(even from shots fired by Deathstoke)....Im gonna heavily doubt that net gun is faster than a Dr light blast, even visually; when Dr light shoots at Robin 2 its faster.(if you want I can find a frame rate for Dr lights blast)

Avoiding bullets isn't the same as this because the line of fire is very small, with the net gun - this is not the case. As the net instantly expands as it comes out of the Gun, covering a large area:

Bombs

Notice that Robin reacted to the bomb, and only ran towards it because Jerhico, also notice that Robin recovers in time to stop Slades blow.

Bruce is using sticky bombs, unlike Slade. So that will obviously not work here - the bombs will just stick to Robin's staff and blow him up, same result.

You also wrote a lengthy section about Robin's durability implying he can shrug off Bruce's bombs, which I disagree with. These bombs one shot Superhuman Parademons, who should logically be more durable than a peak human of the same verse - Batman, who himself is more durable than Robin (which will be debated later).

Speed

(Lime) Unquantifiable speed, no reason it's any more impressive than punching a Parademon blast out of the air.

(D4B) Is this ^^ a Snyder Cut feat?? Honest question, because if it is... Id think it would be fair for me to bring in Nightwing skill feats.

No, the feat is from the theatrical cut. The color grading, aspect ratio and date of the GIF should have made that clear (click on the link, I made the GIF in March 2019). If you need more evidence, here is the video clip of it (1:05).

Strength / Striking Power

(D4B) High End---Matches strength with nuclear dad, a superhuman capable of ripping car door off its hinges.

(Lime) Bruce could contend with Parademons, physically, who can rip apart the armored Batmobile (as linked earlier), a much more impressive showing considering the Batmobile is an armored vehicle.

(D4B) Ye I agree thats nominally better, tho im not sure the hinges of the bat mobile would be armored... its a edge but not a very large one, they are near equals in strength.

Why would the hinges not be made of the same tough material? Plus they didn't just rip the turret off, they caused critical damage to multiple parts of the vehicle by bashing it:

Wrecking an armored tank-like vehicle that can no sell crashing through concrete is tiers above pulling off a car door... Nothing about the comparison implies they're "near equals", Bruce is significantly stronger.

(Lime) A much more significant aspect than strength, and something you neglected. Bruce can send grown men flying through the air with his strikes (1, 2, 3).

(D4B) I don't know what you think flying through the air is, but those guys don't move more than a feet feet if that.

That is just a straight up-lie or you must not be great at judging distances, in the first GIF the guy slides at least 10 feet across the floor. In the second one you're right because he punches him downward. In the third one he kicks him a solid 5-10 feet away.

I mean come on even Hawk hits people further than that.

Robin not only has similar sticking with his fists and kicks, but he breaks bones of humans regularly, and below he rocks and breaks the bones of the nuclear family that could No sell ^^ Hawks blows and tank hits from Starfire.

Hawk's strike definitely does not send the guy further than Batfleck does, it's a similar distance and that's generous to Hank's strike (also Batfleck was punching against the guy's momentum because he was flying towards him).

When did the Nuclear Family tank blows from Hawk or Starfire? I don't remember this at all, and you didn't bother to even cite these feats. And how hard does Starfire hit?

Durability

Immediately after recovering from that bomb Slade stabs and beats Robin with his staff Batman doesnt have a staff or blades and Slade can fight wonder girl and busts concrete blocks)^^ And Robin recovers again, dropping smoke.

Then after all that beating and being stabbing in the leg and chest... Robin still aim dodges gunfire from Slade, then times a knife throw.

1. That 'bomb' did no notable environmental damage and has no power scaling, all it did was send Robin 5 feet away through the air. Heck, even Jericho could take it (albeit with a very small amount of extra distance between him and the bomb) and he's literally just an average teenager with no armor.

2. In the gifs you've provided, he only gets hit once + stabbed twice. Getting stabbed isn't relevant to the topic because in this fight he'll be getting hit by Bruce's blunt strikes, Robin's pain tolerance is of little relevance.

3. Anyway, taking one kick from Slade is not better than Bruce tanking repeated slams and attacks from Parademons who can mess up armored vehicles (links in post 1). "Fighting wonder girl" is meaningless to me, state precisely what you're implying and what scaling you are trying to use please. As for the concrete block feat, he doesn't destroy that, and he deflects it with a sword. Swinging a sword is drastically different from throwing a strike and relies much more on brute strength, Robin doesn't scale to this.

That was ^^^ a much younger Robin.

You post a gif of Slade casually parrying all of Dick's attacks and disarming him in seconds as if it's a good feat for Dick... I'm confused.

Again you didnt show a single skill feat for Batman, I've shown Robin skill a bunch of ways from beating up numbered fodder, to beating Rose, and Jason, all the way hanging with Deathstroke with and without gears.

I posted Batman's 4v1 and Harley scaling, not sure what you mean. I feel like you just didn't read a whole section of my post.

Also Dick can't hang with Slade, you didn't show this in your first post and the GIF you provided doesn't show that either. Dick could only hang with Slade by the end of Season 2 (as Nightwing), but you're not using Dick as of that point. You're using Robin here.

(D4B)Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)

(Lime) I think this is the best skill feat from Dick that you've provided, so feel free to ignore the bullet pointed ones so we can focus on this to keep the debate concise (I'd prefer if you do this too)

(D4B) No, why would I agree to this ridiculousness? You basically ignored and told the readers to ignore my skill feats while not providing any of your own...

I'm annoyed that you're taking my words out of context, you cropped out the last part, this is what I said:

"I think this is the best skill feat from Dick that you've provided, so feel free to ignore the bullet pointed ones so we can focus on this to keep the debate concise (I'd prefer if you do this too), or if you want to bring up a new better feat we can discuss that instead (basically whichever feat you think is his best skill feat)."

The bolded part you cropped out to give a false impression of what I was doing, I'm only trying to keep the debate concise, and wanted to focus on Dick's best and most impressive feat. But regardless of that I still spent the time to address each feat you posted:

(D4B) Like Dicks 12 vs 1 without getting touched is very visually impressive but you discount it because he has gear, like batman only skill feats(which you have yet to provide) dont come from gear. Dick didnt get touched a single time in that fight vs armed men, compared to Batmans only skill fight where he was getting shot in the head and tagged repeatedly.

(D4B) So I showed that Solo's 10 in a corridor. (Without his gears)...but this should be ignored because....

(Lime) Beating up a couple of security guards at a time isn't as good as doing a genuine 4v1 with well trained mercenaries

(D4B) This is pure lowball, and insane that we'd ignore this feat(which I purposefully included to show Grayson without gears), Grayson not only solod 10 in a tight corridor, but he was heavily drugged, the scientists said it was enough to kill a normal man...Do you have a gearless batman feat?

The difference being is that you just post the whole fight and call it a 12v1 or a 10v1 while ignoring the actual events of the fight, I specifically cropped out the part where Bruce engages 4 thugs simultaneously from all angles in hand to hand combat (without the use of gear), he only gets tagged once. I didn't just post the fight scene and call it a "14v1" because Bruce takes out 14 guys, it's silly and has no bearing on the point being made.

The only CQC part of the "12v1" fight that doesn't involve Dick using shurikens, smoke, etc. is when he does a 2v1 with thugs (lol), which is not notable at all. You can watch the fight for yourself, there is no better instance.

As for the 10v1, you've ignored my point there. Dick only engages a couple of them at a time, that's a fact - taking on a large horde gauntlet style isn't the same as engaging them all at once. It's a good feat of stamina and endurance but as a skill showing it's not impressive. Sure he wasn't at full health but we can't properly quantify how much better he is when at full health.

Batfleck's 4v1 is much more impressive for the reasons outlined.

Batman doesnt have to show skill feats outside of punching a girl who just got in a crash?

I dont think that^^ is fair skill scaling, and I think that Robin clearly has the better skill feats.

In that scene Harley pulls out her knife and attempts to attack Bruce, he dodges it and one shots her. But yeah I agree these aren't great circumstances for Harley. But I'll go into detail - I just didn't think I'd ever have to go into detail to establish Bruce Wayne as a better combatant than Harley Quinn...

First off, let's look at how Harley and Bruce compare on paper. Bruce Wayne, the Batman is a man who's life goal was to combat crime in Gotham, he does this through his equipment and skills. He spent years training as a martial artist and has 20 years of field experience. At this point it's a character trait for him to be one of the best / the best martial artist in his universe. His martial arts mastery has been portrayed through a variety of methods - first off when he drastically changes the outcome of a fight at a Russian fighting club with only a few words, while this isn't a conventional showing of Bruce's skill, it clearly shows how the writers view his capabilities. Secondly, it is portrayed in his choreography, here is a detailed video breaking down some of his moves - most notable styles include Boxing, Krav Maga, Karate, Muay Thai & Judo. Thirdly, let's look at how the choreographers talk about this specimen:

Batman, when he's fighting he's in charge. The odds may be against him, he may be fighting 6, 7, 8 guys at one time... but he's in charge. He doesn't cower to anyone. Although being very strong and physically fit, he can take you down in a number of ways. He's very technical, [in this film] you see this guys moves and see what he can do.

~ Richard Cetrone (Batman v Superman: Stunt Coordinator)

In contrast, Harley Quinn spent most of her life as a therapist with no greater ambitions. Her experience and training is dismissible in contrast to Bruce, most of her combat abilities comes from her acrobatics and craziness. She's not a skilled, disciplined fighter the way Bruce Wayne is.

Now, for those of you who have feats' mindsets, we can also look to Bruce's showing against Deadshot, where he shows up and dismantles him with ease, dislocating his knee as he does. Floyd's only chance is to roll back and attempt to shoot Bruce because he obviously can't contend in melee. Floyd himself performed a decent bit better than Harley Quinn did against Enchantress, parrying a few hits and landing one himself. Bruce >>>>>> Floyd > Harley. The feats posted for Harley you have ignored, they are all on par with Dick's unarmed showings:

Harley Quinn also has feats like soloing a bunch of inmates, cops and Black Mask thugs in Birds of Prey, and she's tiers below Batman (obviously).

The gap between Bruce & Harley is far greater than between her showings and Dick's. You didn't address these showings either, so I assume you agree with Harley's feats not being far behind Dick's (or equal), but it's only the Bruce > Harley bit which you disagree with.

Is more skilled than Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to (solo 6 GPD cops.)

Harley clearing the room of prisoners is tiers more impressive, considering there's a greater number of them and they actually know where she is, the cops are wandering cluelessly at points in Jason's fight (look at the cop in the background at 0:33).

Clowns Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to solo Dr Light.)

Why is being Dr. Light in CQC impressive?

Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)

Harley's showing against the prisoners is far better than this due to the greater numbers she faces and so is Bruce's 4v1 as mentioned in Post 1.

(Lime) But a stealth encounter is unlikely considering they start a mere 9 meters away inside of a warehouse.

(D4B) You may want to reread the OP, we start on opposite ends of the warehouse, thats always been the parameters of this CAV.

I feel like it's been edited considering there's no longer an image of the warehouse anymore (pretty sure there was before), it also says the OP has been edited.

Also, I already explained how Bruce also wins in a stealth scenario so it won't matter (D4B completely ignored this part of the post btw), I'm just gonna repost it for the readers:

"Robin sneaking up on thugs and beating them down doesn't come close to Bruce's stealth showings. He can disappear and appear in an instant, and more impressively avoid Kryptonian Senses like Superman's and Doomsday's. If anyone's getting stealth attacked, it's Robin, not Bruce. But a stealth encounter is unlikely considering they start a mere 9 meters away inside of a warehouse."

..... I won't breakdown the whole fight blow but unarmed Grayson fights pretty evenly with the 2 even breaking Moms arm (she snaps it back in place) before getting kicked out the window to crumpled the car.

Grayson then goes to get his gear.

After he returns geared up Robin takes on all 4 members of the family....

he deals bone breaking blows with his staff, and shows incredible skill redirecting a whip from one family member to another, and impressive improvisation stabbing the Dad with his broken staff.

Again these are explicit Superhumans with very good raw strength and durability, and a decent healing factor...

1. Robin w/ his Staff >>>> Robin, yeah I agree with this. The gap between Bruce & Harley is just as big if not bigger, and Harley is definitely comparable to unarmed Dick in skill.

2. The actual feat, it was a 3v1 not a 4v1. Because Dick ambushes the dad and takes him out of the fight before engaging via BFR, he fights the two kids + the mom and beats them up. Then when the kids are taken out he beats up the dad + mom in a 2v1. A 3v1 with superhumans is impressive, and Dick's best feat imo. Mostly because they're superhumans, as far as skill goes, they're not very impressive. I find taking on a larger number of less physically powerful opponents more impressive, as it requires greater coordination and awareness, Harley's prison feat fits that criteria. While that feat in itself isn't as good as fighting the NF considering how they beat Hawk & Dove, the gap between Bruce & Harley is massive enough that Bruce is on the same level as Dick is.

These are enhanced individuals using drugs to enhance there physicals, they are capable of no selling hits from Hawk and Dove and tanking hits from Starfire without injury, they could stagger Starfire with normal hits, and can near KO her by hitting her with a car door.

You still haven't cited any of these instances nor posted any striking feats for Starfire. No durability feats for Starfire either.

Subline accused me of editing the CAV conditions mid battle to favor my self.

I did not.

This is what lime said.

Editing a OP mid battle is a hella accusation, especially with so little proof as the OP says edited...I feel lime lime could of asked before his post.

Lets just end this right here.

I did not edit the OP to favor my self, I may have edited it to play with the photoshop art I made for this CAV in the OP.

These are the conditions you agreed to....

"Both on opposite side of warehouse, aware the other is hunting them"

I feel im probably owed a apology, but im willing to let the salt die here.

So far Ive shown this.

• Defeats 12 armed men without getting touched. (I think this is a greater showing than Batmans famous 'warehouse' scene because he went untagged)
• Solo's 10 in a corridor. (Without his gears)
• Defeats 3 Agents of "The Organization" in seconds.
• Is more skilled than Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to (solo 6 GPD cops.)
• Clowns Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to solo Dr Light.)
• Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)
• Dodging gunshots from Deathstoke after being stabbed and reacting to bombs and tanking bombs.(in post 2)
• 4 stealth takedowns in a row

And I showed Robin jumping into the middle off 4 superhumans and wrecking house.

Id ask lime to show a gif of this 4v1 hes relying on and id like everyone to compare it to robin jumping in the middle of 4 superhumans and wrecking (thats the superhuman nuclear family in the gif above)

Ive given a detailed breakdown of Robins stealth mission in post 1 and his Nuclear family feat in post 2.

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Compared to

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What Lime has shown..

A 4v1 with mercs.

Losing to deadshot.

And some (In my opinion) faulty scaling to Harley...He showed a quote from a BVS stunt director and Harley isnt even in that movie.

~ Richard Cetrone (Batman v Superman: Stunt Coordinator)

In contrast, Harley Quinn spent most of her life as a therapist with no greater ambitions. Her experience and training is dismissible in contrast to Bruce, most of her combat abilities comes from her acrobatics and craziness. She's not a skilled, disciplined fighter the way Bruce Wayne is.

The quote you yourself provided says that Harleys wins come from acrobatics and craziness....in contrast to bruce.

A Contrast is a great difference between two things.

That quote is from a stunt director from a movie harley isnt even in...dont you think this might be getting out their with WOG statements....also contrast means different.

Harley and Batmans only encounter..

Batman punching a female car crash victim doesn't show hes more skilled than her

Batman doesn't scale imo.

(all apologies if I missed a skill feat lime showed, his formatting doesnt have the skill feats neatly laid out..I made sure to reread his posts so I didnt make a mistake, but maybe I missed a thing.

For stealth Lime has showed this.

Robin sneaking up on thugs and beating them down doesn't come close to Bruce's stealth showings. He can disappear and appear in an instant, and more impressively avoid Kryptonian Senses like Superman's and Doomsday's. If anyone's getting stealth attacked, it's Robin, not Bruce. But a stealth encounter is unlikely considering they start a mere 9 meters away inside of a warehouse.

So Batman 'appears and disappears' while humans have their head turned away... and gets away from a superman and a raging DD for a moment...these are impressive but they kinda just show bruce running away.

I showed Robin implementing a stealth strategy, and repeatedly attacking with extreme brutality.. from stealth positions, attacking eyes and groins while staying unseen against armed opponents.

Robin stealth attacks a dudes groin and tags a dude in the eyeball with a shuriken before and of the goons can react before disappearing again...

I really think this should be considered by the people reading this CAV, I proved that this battle has always been a battle with Robin and Batman starting at the opposite ends of a warehouse.. and Robin has shown to be extremely brutal with his stealth.

Attacks this guy from above, then drops him through a shelf.

Stealths this guy with a choke slam.

Stealth favors Robin I think.

lime said.

2. The actual feat, it was a 3v1 not a 4v1. Because Dick ambushes the dad and takes him out of the fight before engaging via BFR, he fights the two kids + the mom and beats them up. Then when the kids are taken out he beats up the dad + mom in a 2v1. A 3v1 with superhumans is impressive, and Dick's best feat imo. Mostly because they're superhumans, as far as skill goes, they're not very impressive.

No it was a 4v1...as you said, Dick ambushes the dad.

Stealth attacking the superhuman nuclear dad should be added to Robins stealth feats.

So he beats 4 superhumans opening with a stealth attack... thats quite a bit better than any skill feat Batman has.

As far as skill goes they beat down Hawk and Dove and Starfire and Robin beat down 4 of them in a very impressive manner.

You still haven't cited any of these instances nor posted any striking feats for Starfire. No durability feats for Starfire either.

Here are the full fights..Hawk and Dove and Starfire.... Robin beat 4 of these sueprhumans with a quickness.

I don’t think they are unskilled.

They are clearly skilled Superhumans. Using weapons like the nuclear daughter does with this whip shows skill, beating Hawk, Dove, and Starfire shows skill... tearing a door off a car shows their superhuman strength they got after given that superhuman drug...beating these 4 is definitely better than anything Batman has done.

Fair enough on the OP, I didn't intend to insult you. My memory was just acting up, this is an old CaV. I apologize for the accusation regardless.

So far Ive shown this.

• Defeats 12 armed men without getting touched. (I think this is a greater showing than Batmans famous 'warehouse' scene because he went untagged)
• Solo's 10 in a corridor. (Without his gears)
• Defeats 3 Agents of "The Organization" in seconds.
• Is more skilled than Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to (solo 6 GPD cops.)
• Clowns Jason Todd (Jason Todd is skilled enough to solo Dr Light.)
• Is more skilled than Rose Wilson (Rose is skilled enough to solo 4 cops)
• Dodging gunshots from Deathstoke after being stabbed and reacting to bombs and tanking bombs.(in post 2)
• 4 stealth takedowns in a row

Restating feats doesn't prove anything... I wrote out detailed counters for each of these feats which you've just completely neglected and ignored, refer back to Post 2 skill section for these counters.

(D4B) And I showed Robin jumping into the middle off 4 superhumans and wrecking house.

Id ask lime to show a gif of this 4v1 hes relying on and id like everyone to compare it to robin jumping in the middle of 4 superhumans and wrecking (thats the superhuman nuclear family in the gif above)

(Lime) 2. The actual feat, it was a 3v1 not a 4v1. Because Dick ambushes the dad and takes him out of the fight before engaging via BFR, he fights the two kids + the mom and beats them up. Then when the kids are taken out he beats up the dad + mom in a 2v1. A 3v1 with superhumans is impressive, and Dick's best feat imo. Mostly because they're superhumans, as far as skill goes, they're not very impressive.

(D4B) No it was a 4v1...as you said, Dick ambushes the dad.

Stealth attacking the superhuman nuclear dad should be added to Robins stealth feats.

So he beats 4 superhumans opening with a stealth attack... thats quite a bit better than any skill feat Batman has.

Stealth attacking the nuclear dad means that he only engaged 3 of them in CQC at a time, and that's what we're discussing here, his skill in melee combat. Stealth has nothing to do with this part of the debate but it's not impressive as a stealth feat anyway, as the NF were focused on the other Titans, and he has no awareness feats anyway.

As far as skill goes they beat down Hawk and Dove and Starfire and Robin beat down 4 of them in a very impressive manner.

Here are the full fights..Hawk and Dove and Starfire.... Robin beat 4 of these sueprhumans with a quickness.

You haven't provided any showings to establish Hawk & Dove. So all we know so far based on your post (which is what the voters should vote on exclusively) is that 4 superhumans can beat 2 humans, why is this impressive again?

Starfire is at least superhuman but you still posted no physical showings or skill feats for her, so 2 superhumans beating her isn't really impressive either.

Using weapons like the nuclear daughter does with this whip shows skill

Effectively using a whip hardly establishes her combat abilities

tearing a door off a car shows their superhuman strength they got after given that superhuman drug...beating these 4 3 is definitely better than anything Batman has done.

Let's compare:

Dick > 3 superhumans

Batman > Deadshot > Harley Quinn > 3 Black Mask Mercs

I already explained why I think they're comparable as far as skill goes (Bruce wins because of stats) but if you missed that I'll restate.

Dick beating 3 superhumans is impressive because of their physical advantage, but it's ultimately still just a 3v1. Harley performed a 3v1 herself, obviously not as good as Dick's showing because the stats gap is less, but Bruce scales significantly above Harley. Since you didn't really address Harley in contrast to Dick, I'm assuming you agree with this line of logic, and only disagree with scaling Bruce above Harley, which i'll get into now.

What Lime has shown..

A 4v1 with mercs.

Losing to deadshot.

Already addressed this:

"Now, for those of you who have feats' mindsets, we can also look to Bruce's showing against Deadshot, where he shows up and dismantles him with ease, dislocating his knee as he does. "

And some (In my opinion) faulty scaling to Harley...He showed a quote from a BVS stunt director and Harley isnt even in that movie.

The quote you yourself provided says that Harleys wins come from acrobatics and craziness....in contrast to bruce.

A Contrast is a great difference between two things.

That quote is from a stunt director from a movie harley isnt even in...dont you think this might be getting out their with WOG statements....also contrast means different.

What? The quote from the stunt director has nothing to do with Harley.... he didn't mention her. I said Harley's combat abilities come from acrobatics and being crazy, in contrast to Bruce's much more refined combat and martial arts expertise (which are established in the way he is portrayed, I wrote a lengthy section on why he's way better on paper which you pretty much also just neglected and dismissed as "faulty" without explaining why it is).

Harley and Batmans only encounter..

Batman punching a female car crash victim doesn't show hes more skilled than her

Batman doesn't scale imo.

Once again you've ignored the majority of what I wrote, you didn't address the line of scaling through Deadshot or Bruce being better than Harley on paper.

So Batman 'appears and disappears' while humans have their head turned away...

When Gordon has his head turned we can still see Batman on the right side of the screen, he's gone in the next shot. This debunk isn't valid:

and gets away from a superman and a raging DD for a moment...these are impressive but they kinda just show bruce running away.

You phrase this like all he had to do was run... Superman has super senses as mentioned in the first post, he could hear the earpiece in Bruce's ear, Bruce ghosting him is an insane feat.

Robin stealth attacks a dudes groin and tags a dude in the eyeball with a shuriken before and of the goons can react before disappearing again...

I really think this should be considered by the people reading this CAV, I proved that this battle has always been a battle with Robin and Batman starting at the opposite ends of a warehouse.. and Robin has shown to be extremely brutal with his stealth.

Brutality and edginess isn't going to help when his stealth abilities are significantly worse than Bruce's. Sneaking around a warehouse with a ton of cover in the dark is not better than Bruce's showings of disappearing in an instant or ghosting Kryptonians.

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