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#1 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio
The Bat of Gotham (Subline)
The Bat of Gotham (Subline)

VS

Hydra's Finest Soldier (SupremeGeneration)
Hydra's Finest Soldier (SupremeGeneration)

Rules:

  • H2H Only.
  • Batman gets feats from Movies and Tie-In Comics.
  • Batman gets his suit, but no gadgets.
  • Ward gets feats from Agents of Shield TV Show.
  • Ward gets his Combat Attire.
  • No prep.
  • Win by death / KO.
  • Both get prior knowledge of who they're going up against.

Location:

Takes place in an abandoned empty warehouse:

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Voting:

  • You must have at least 750 Forum Posts to vote.
  • You must provide good reasoning for your vote.
  • Do not vote on who you think would win, but vote on who debated better.
  • Read all CaV posts.
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#2 Posted by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

This CaV may not start for quite a while, I just made the thread early. The CaV could start in a few weeks or even a few months.

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#4 Posted by Kevd4wg (12515 posts) - - Show Bio

Grant Bored must've been pretty difficult to come up with

T4V

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#5 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25855 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome.

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#6 Posted by DrPepperMan (6288 posts) - - Show Bio

Spoiler: Daredevil wins. He fought the Black Sky while at a reach disadvantage.

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#7 Posted by JSDoctor (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

Unsure if joke CaV or serious CaV...

T4V either way.

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#8 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#9 Posted by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Lol. It's a serious CaV, he was calling Batman 'Batfodder' so I called Ward 'Grant Bored' just as a joke. Then he insisted I make this the title just for jokes.

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

This title alone is award worthy.

OT-T4V though I think it's fairly apparent who the stronger character is and better debater.

J.K ;]

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#12 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#13 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11442 posts) - - Show Bio
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MCU Grant Ward

Basically anyone who reads this CaV knows who these two badasses are, so I'll just shamelessly copy and paste this from the MCU wiki to get started:

Grant Douglas Ward was one of the leaders of HYDRA and the most personal adversary of Phil Coulson and S.H.I.E.L.D.. A former HYDRA infiltrator in S.H.I.E.L.D., disguised as a Level 7 operative, he was abused as a child by his family. As a teenager, he tried to burn down his family home. Ward was imprisoned until he was freed by John Garrett, who trained Ward to become a cold-blooded killer. Ward eventually became more loyal to him than to HYDRA. As an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., he was recruited onto Coulson's Team, working with them on all their missions, pretending to be gruff and anti-social and to become emotionally attached to the team.

During the HYDRA Uprising, he killed Victoria Hand but still maintained his cover as a loyal S.H.I.E.L.D. agent. He broke cover on John Garrett's orders and rejoined HYDRA. Despite harboring feelings for Skye, he followed all of Garrett's orders. When Garrett's HYDRA cell lost the Battle at Cybertek, he was imprisoned by Coulson. Ward managed to escape many months later and rejoined HYDRA under Daniel Whitehall. However, he left the organization again after Whitehall's death along with Kara Palamas. They started a path in order to close their wounds and move forward that culminated in kidnapping Bobbi Morse, whom they considered responsible for Palamas' brainwashing.

Ward ended up accidentally killing Palamas, and he rejoined the remnants of HYDRA, deciding to rebuild the organizationand become its new leader. His quest brought him in conflict with Gideon Malick, one of the last heads of HYDRA's old guard, but eventually they made an alliance to destroy S.H.I.E.L.D. and fulfill HYDRA's oldest goal: the return of HYDRA's ancient Inhuman leader to Earth. While on Maveth, he was finally killed by Phil Coulson, but his corpse was taken as a vessel by the dark Inhuman and brought back to Earth.

Link

To start this debate off, I want to list what I believe the advantages of each person in this debate is. I'll begin with Ward:

  • Skill - Not only does Ward have fodder feats and feats against superhumans to match and potentially exceed Bruce's own, Ward has the added major advantage of feats against established opponents, primarily Melinda May who has feats of her own that match or exceed Bruce's. There are others, but May is obviously the biggest one.
  • Speed/Reflexes - I'm aware that Bruce has two incredibly unquantifiable feats that you intend to provide (parademon blast timing and catching a falling Flash) and I'm ready to tear into them when necessary. On the other hand, Ward has feats that should give him the edge in this scenario, which I'll show soon enough.

These two are, hopefully something I don't have to explain, two of the most important aspects in any fight. Everything else is important, but these two allow you to outhit your opponent despite an otherly stats gap, something that isn't that big in this fight.

Before looking into Bruce's advantages, let's look at what some of the insanely close stats between these two:

  • Striking - Bruce's high end striking feat is better than most of Wards but on average, Ward struggles a lot less to put down fodder. I think this section is pretty close between these two fighters, but we'll see when it comes to it.
  • Durability - I'm probably gonna get a lot of heat for this one, but Ward's feats should allow him to stay in this fight just as long as Bruce can, despite his lack of a protective suit. He has insane pain tolerance, as do all agents, on otherworldly levels. Bruce's suit might edge this out for him, but it's definitely close.
  • Raw Strength - While Bruce might seem to have better feats in this regard at first glance, Ward has more than enough to suggest he can compete on a level that will allow him to not get manhandled.

With these three being insanely close, even if one or the other takes an edge, the first two bigger advantages that Ward has will begin to shine pretty well.

This just leaves with me addressing Bruce's bigger advantages in this fight. I addressed Ward's and I addressed points that were close between the two, so let's do the same for the Bat:

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Something's wrong here...

So yea, I personally believe Bruce holds no overwhelming advantage in this scenario. He's outskilled pretty solidly, he's unquantifiable fast (or slow...), and everything else is closer than many will admit. You already know my thoughts on this match-up but I'll try and keep an open mind. To start some actual arguments, I'll go through the three closest points first and end with the more controversial issues. Let's get right into it.

Raw Strength

Like I said, Ward isn't too far from Bruce in this category and it's pretty close. Ward is, for starters, an uber casual ragdoller:

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That much was pretty clear, though, given the nature of the two combatants. To step it up a bit, let's look here:

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In the above gif we see Ward pretty casually pick a guy to use as a human shield, and then more impressively, slam him hard enough to knock down not one, but two fully geared STRIKE agents. I'm aware that Bruce is strong, but his application of it (as far as I remember) was mostly based on doing similar things to the above. Other than that it was all based on his grappling hook. Ward, on the other hand, is a fantastic, almost beastly fighter where it pertains to application of strength. He's been able to casually overpower highly skilled fighters such as Melinda May, a casual neck breaker (1)(2) that can ragdoll and flip over grown men decently herself (1)(2, the second with a single arm)(3, with a hole in her leg). She's decently strong, but that doesn't keep Ward from treating her like a toy:

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Multiple times throughout their final fight, Ward is seen straight up grabbing May and just throwing her around, basically ignoring her own strength. That's an amazing application of strength, being able to outright overpower a fighter like that. Let's move on:

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Here, Ward grabs Bobbi Morse and shoves her through a section of wall like a literal ragdoll. However, note the fashion in which he does it. He seems to grab the lower neck/inner shoulder area, which allows him to outright prevent her from using her strength. This basically means that all he has to do is throw her body weight around, something he should be fully capable of doing against Bruce. Even if you prove Bruce is stronger by a larger margin than I might believe he is, Ward is just far more effective at abusing his strength in a fight. To further this, it's against people far more skilled than Bruce himself, something I'll showcase later.

Striking

Again, another pretty close section. To start off here, we'll look a decently overused feat:

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Overused, but clearly effective. Ward straight up one-shots this guy, a rather large and muscular man, with the utmost ease. No struggle, no sweat. To further up the ante, Ward is fully capable of sending guys flipping into the air with his strikes:

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As you can see, Ward pretty cleanly sends this guy into a full body rotation flip into a pond/pool thing. That's some pretty casual ragdolling, too. I doubt he could ragdoll Bruce like that, but force of those punches say, in his exposed jaw, would certainly hurt him.

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Here, Ward throws a knife hard enough to knock down a STRIKE agent through body armor and proceeds to hammer a guy hard enough to make him a full turn-flip in mid air. Again, doing this to Bruce might not do much, but it helps set a baseline for what he can do after time.

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Here's the last one for now. In this gif we see Ward casually overpower (albeit by surprise), then beat the ever loving crap out of a fully armored agent. He proceeds to punch him twice then knock his head into a sink, KOing him and possibly killing him. This is the kind of stuff that would eventually put Bruce down: grabbing him, punching him in the exposed area, and ramming his head into the nearby columns. It would be difficult, but not undoable.

Durability

Ward, being one of the tankiest unenhanced street levellers out there, is naturally incredibly hard to put down. Batman is certainly comparable with the suit, but I still think this section is just incredibly close, primarily because of Centipede Soldiers. Let's set up what these guys can do, strength wise:

So yea, they're pretty freaking strong. Also remember that this is actual striking, not just strength feats. This doesn't stop Ward from taking multiple blows from them, on numerous occasions. For instance here:

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He gets thrown around a large handful of times and kept on getting back up. Their throws and slams barely affect him, and I showed what they did to that shipping container. Yet he still finds a way to take one down using the environment, visible affecting one with just a car door. I'll get into that later.

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Here he gets slammed onto the ground hard and still recovers fast enough to dodge the next blow and proceed to take it down with special equipment. But at the end of the day, these are slam and throws. Don't get me wrong, Bruce will struggle to hurt Ward with these alone, but it's always nice to add icing on the cake.

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In this gif, Ward gets clocked directly in the face then proceeds to jump in front of a punch to help May, getting flung a decent 10ish feet. However, what most people fail to note is that Ward was actually seen up again in the background by 15 or so seconds later (time stamped when he got hit). Now he's seen getting up at 1:03 again, and there's two interpretations: either the editing was off with Ward in the background it only took Ward an extra five seconds to get up (which still makes the feat impressive, 20 seconds after getting hit in the head and then punched around the room OR he got hit again in the back and got back up in 5 seconds (which wouldn't be far-fetched given what I've shown so far). Either interpretation is still massively impressive for Ward. Apart from raw durability, Ward brings something pretty great to the table, that being his insane pain tolerance.

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Here Ward gets his head slammed onto the table by Bobbi Morse then a bunch of needles are stabbed into the back of his skull. Ward retaliates by immediately taking the needles out of his neck and pushing Bobbi back. I mean it was Ward who told the audience that "Any agent worth their salt can block out pain." He literally embodies this when he gets shot in the shoulder by Coulson and proceeds to keep talking. So yea, Bruce is gonna struggle to put Ward down.

Speed/Reflexes

Here we go. As mentioned earlier, I fully believe that Ward has this advantage. Where Bruce has parademon blast timing and catching a falling Flash, we have zero idea how fast either of those was going. You could say "pretty fast" but we'd still be questioning how fast "pretty fast" is. At the end of the day, we have no clue how fast parademon blasts are and we don't know how fast Flash was going. But enough of that;

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Here we have the obvious first feat to use for Ward in this category, given that it's actually pretty impressive. He comes out of the closet to gunblitz 6 level 5 SHIELD agents. However, more than just gunblitz them, he shoots down three tight corridorsbefore any of them caneven raise their guns. That means that he shot two guys down one corridor, turned to the next, shot two guys, turned to the next, shot two guys, before a single one of them could raise their guns.

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Here we see Ward react fast enough throw a glass cup at a HYDRA operative and still have enough time pick up a metal plate from the table all before the HYDRA guys even pulled their triggers. This feat is actually pretty underrated when you take all of that into account.

CQC/H2H Skill

Fodder Feats

To begin with we have fodder feats. Ward has those in spades, and he has a great quantity and quality of them.

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Here, Ward dislocates his thumb in order to escape being held in handcuffs and proceeds to immediately dominate two FBI agents in extremely small quarters. Keep in mind, this is Ward after being in prison months, where he had no way to stay in shape or train.

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In this gif we see Ward go through 5 trained soldiers in a rather quick manner, cutting through them like a hot knife through butter, with absolutely no issue. Soldiers are nothing, as you can see, and special forces don't fare much better:

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In the first gif, Ward swiftly takes down 3 Peruvian special forces soldiers with the utmost ease. He's putting them down rather casually, too. In the second gif, there's been a hole blown into the plane. Ward is seen still dominating three of these Peruvian special forces guys with ease, despite the turbulent conditions. Whilst the soldiers are affected as well, it doesn't seem to hinder them. All of those guys attack or aim at him first, before he attacks them.

Then there's the infamous level 5 agents feat. Let's take a look:

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Here, Ward takes on multiple level 5 agents sent by SHIELD, believing Ward was HYDRA (I mean he was but... well you get the point). On at least two occasions, once in each gif, he's dealing with two of them simultaneously. Not exactly fighting them at the same time, but dealing with them. Now yes, Ward does get almost infamously thrown off basically immediately after that second gif, around here. He gets absolutely beat on by five grown men for about 10 seconds before taking them all out in roughly the same amount of time, give or take a second. Now sure, he had a knife, so it takes away from the feat in this regard, but even if we take the skill out of it he got beat on by five grown men for a solid amount of time and still got up to fight back.

Feats vs Superhumans

To begin this section, let's start by establishing the Centipede Soldiers. You already saw what they could do strength wise, but I'll post that again:

Their durability is also top-notch superhuman:

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Here we see Mike Peterson fall from four stories up in a burning building at speeds that would kill any normal human. Not only does he land perfectly fine, literally walking it off, he leaves a decent-sized crater in the ground. This is the kind of insane durability that the Centipedes are packing. Let's revisit them for skill, shall we?

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Here we see Ward lay a brief smackdown on a Centipede soldier, visibly causing him pain by using the environment. While it applies to his physical strength as well - as blows like these are going to be rocking Bruce pretty freaking hard - it's the usage of environment that I want to note. Bruce is pretty durable in his suit, and the environment around the fight will allow Ward to get shots on his head via slams and horizontal throws.

However, to make every feat I showed in the durability section more impressive (particularly the punches and getting flipped over) is the fact that the Centipede Soldiers were stated to be ex-black ops. You don't have to take my word for it either, it shows in their fighting style:

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You can see that the Centipede soldier moves incredibly fluidly and is actually incredibly adept at chaining attacks, including a horizontal flip kick leading into a quick sweep kick. Note however that Ward proves he is more than capable of evading their quick blows. These guys were even capable of keeping May on the defensive, incapable of countering. While the vast majority is in part due to their overwhelming physicals, they were still keeping her on the defensive with little change for counter attacking.

Why does them being ex-black ops matter, though? It simply means that they actually know how throw punches and apply their strength, adding the cherry on the top for those feats.

Bruce's superhumans are basically just parademons. To my knowledge, they displayed some great strength on the Batmobile and then... nothing much more than that. I'd probably grant them the strength advantage over Centipede Soldiers but that's probably it. I don't remember them being that durable, and I certainly don't remember something on the level of what I showed.

Parademon AdvantagesCentipede Advantages
StrengthDurability
FlightSkill
Ranged WeaponsCombat Speed

These are the advantages of either side. I took off flight and ranged weapons because for Batman's feat they were utterly irrelevant. When it pertains to pure CQC, the above non-strikethrough categories are the most important thing. I gave the Centipede Soldiers combat speed because of the way they genuinely pressured May as well as their clear fluid movements, something the Parademons lacked.

Here is the full fight for Ward vs a Centipede Soldier. Now sure, he used gear to take it down, but Bruce needed gear and environment to take the Parademons down just as much as Ward did, arguably more so. He surprised one by falling on it, immediately disarmed one with the spikes on his gauntlet and hit it again with the spikes on his gauntlet. The next time we see him, he's actually on the floor. He used his grappling hook to take it down after a rather lengthy fight. Now sure, Ward's was also lengthy, but he found ways to actually stagger his opponent.

Feats vs Established Opponents

Now this? This section is the real kicker, and why the skill battle isn't close. Bruce has a sneak attack (albeit holding back) on Deadshot who while no slouch, is certainly far from impressive. He also didn't have his gear, which we've seen him be reliant on in melee. He was also caught in an awkward position as well as the fact that he seemingly didn't expect the Bat to be bulletproof, something that caught him off-guard and didn't allow him to counter the ensuing punch. Anyways, let's look at Ward vs Bobbi first:

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Now of course you know the context, but I'll inform those of the audience that might not know: Bobbi had been tortured for hours right before fight. Now the torture that we see was seemingly just needles in her nails, but we don't know the full context. However, something not many people know is that Ward was holding back as he wanted Bobbi to suffer the way Kara had, as well as the wish to grant the kill to the latter. Bobbi, on the other hand, is going all out as she wants to escape. It's not exactly an even fight due to the circumstances, but it's not far from it either, especially keeping in mind that "any agent worth their salt can block out pain" as well as the fact that this fight took place immediately after Ward got stabbed in the neck by a cluster of needles. Now yes, he was on the losing end eventually, but it's never a bad thing to lose to someone who has better feats than you, especially when you put up one hell of a fight.

But why is this impressive? It's not, until we find out the things Bobbi has done. For starters, it took her seconds to dispatch of John Bruno, a military assassin so good he was placed on the Index, which is SHIELD's file for enhanced individuals. Her fodder feats against world class mercenaries and guards of an Inhuman compound sent by Russian government officials and Gideon Malick, a leader of the new HYDRA, aren't bad either. In the second gif she actually fights 2 of them at a time at one point, though it's hard to make out. She's also capable of pressuring Vin Tak, keeping him on the defensive. Vin Tak being a freaking Kree warrior comparable in stats and skill to Lady Sif (no pushover herself). She managed to do so again, except against an armed Vin Tak. Being ultimately inferior, yet still comparable and capable of highly pressuring, a fighter of this caliber is beyond DCEU Batman.

But as you likely suspect, Bobbi is the smallest part of my overall skill argument given the rather shoddy scaling. Fortunately, Ward also has direct scaling to Melinda May, the Cavalry.

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In the first gif we see Ward redirect an incoming kick from May, skillfully countering the move and slamming her head into the ceiling of the plane. In the second gif, we see Ward once again temporarily best May, quickly dodging a kick, blocking a punch and turning it into a counterattack. Lastly, Ward quickly gets May off him after being punched squarely in the face (scene before, he got sneak attacked and this was his first move). The two strength feats I showed from earlier also help establish his skill where it pertains to her. In the first one he's getting up from a disadvantaged position to immediately choke her and in the other he gets hit, blocks the next hit, and lands a clean hit to her face before grabbing her and throwing her through a wall.

Now of course, Ward isn't exactly May's equal in skill either, she's definitely more skilled, but being on her general level and being able to fight equally, pressuring, and sometimes outright outskilling a fighter of May's caliber is more than Bruce is capable of. Let's look at May's feats:

  • Here, May beats 3 enhanced peak human primitives after being sneak attacked and hit squarely in the face. These primitives were strong enough to casually snap out of metal cuffs (can't find link, will post next time if necessary). They were also more durable than humans, as I showed May casually snapping necks earlier but she had a slight struggle with these guys. To add on to that, they were also trained Watchdogs who received military training and tracked down/captured/killed powered Inhumans, to the point they were literally hired by the government.
  • Here we see her casually dominating 2 Remorath in combat. Note that these are aliens who's durability was all over the place (I'm aware there are feats of guns downing them, but it seems to vary) and more importantly, were a civilization that literally revolved around killing. Their literal specialty was killing.
  • May was also described as "having the time of her life" while fighting the leader of the aforementioned Remorath. Remember, the Remorath rank up by having the most efficient and overall most kills in their civilizations. Their leader would obviously be incredibly skilled.
  • There's also scaling to Ward's HYDRA, such as beating 2 guards assigned by Ward and beating 3 guys trying to join. These guys have to prove themselves in order to join up with Ward and they do so fight-club style, "by blood". I think one guy trying to join beat up Hunter, but I'm having trouble finding it. Hunter could beat a handful of SHIELD agents himself when trying to escape from Gonzales's SHIELD faction aboard the Iliad.
  • Her first in a while, May is seen casually steamrolling HYDRA guards alongside Daisy going completely untouched for the entire duration of the fight.
  • Lastly is scaling to S2 Skye, who she casually dominatedwhile holding back. On the contrast, Daisy had just watched her mother get shot by SHIELD. This scaling is famous, of course, because S2 Skye was able to keep up with (albeit ultimately fall to) 5 Alisha clones (Alisha herself being > SHIELD fodder) and contend with Agent 33. This is basically better than anything Bruce ever did.

But of course, this battle isn't May vs Bruce. Again, just like with Bobbi, Melinda May is ultimately more skilled than Grant Ward, and while the gap is noticeable, it is not huge. Ward proved extremely comparable to May, giving her insanely difficult fights through a combination of overwhelming physicals and his own insane skill. Once again like Bobbi, being ultimately inferior (skillwise) but still comparable and capable of highly pressuring, a fighter of this caliber is beyond DCEU Batman.

Bruce's feats just simply do not stack up in the slightest against opponents of May and Bobbi's caliber, whereas Ward has proven himself to be able to give both great fights, even taking the edge on some (Ward was beating May, if mostly due to physicals, but it's worth noting May needed the environment to put him down whereas Ward just used it as a tool).

Conclusion

Well... Many of the voters as well as my opponent know that I don't view this as a particularly close battle. There's a very simple reason as to why I believe this: because it's not. Bruce has comparable physicals in all areas, he might even take some by slim margins, but he is hilariously outskilled. He has decent superhuman feats, decent fodder feats, and not a single impressive fight vs an established opponent to his name. Contrast that to Ward who has comparable fodder feats, better superhuman feats, and can pressure fighters whose radars don't even register Bruce. The only caveat here is Bruce's suit, something that the environment as well as far superior skill will help counteract. Getting hit in the exposed jaw, getting thrown around, and one last factor I'm saving for my next post will all ensure that while this fight might be delayed due to physicals, it won't be close.

Ball's in your court, @subline

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#14 Posted by AngelJax (11597 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#15 Edited by blackpantherisb (6986 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#16 Posted by Kevd4wg (12515 posts) - - Show Bio

Yay SG wanking agents

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#17 Posted by Amcu (16274 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post.

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#18 Posted by Emanresu_20 (2734 posts) - - Show Bio

Aren’t they both omnipotent?

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#19 Posted by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1243 posts) - - Show Bio

SG going in hard, solid opener man.

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#23 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11442 posts) - - Show Bio

My opponent will be editing his post to add more substance to it, to really get a debate going. He ran this through me first and I agreed, so no one throw a hissy fit.

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#24 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1243 posts) - - Show Bio

My opponent will be editing his post to add more substance to it, to really get a debate going. He ran this through me first and I agreed, so no one throw a hissy fit.

Good. We would hate to think Subline was cheating.

;)

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#29 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15675 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: Is it already finished or are you just tagging for interest?

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#30 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11442 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15675 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Alavanka (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm hooked. Gonna take this chance to learn more about Ward.

Online
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#34 Posted by jayc1324 (26421 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#35 Edited by The_Magister (13520 posts) - - Show Bio

tag at the end.

Not sure if I'll vote

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#36 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V.

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#42 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

THE BATMAN

Bruce Wayne - The Bat of Gotham
Bruce Wayne - The Bat of Gotham

Bio:

Bruce Wayne is the CEO of Wayne Enterprises and the vigilante operating in Gotham City, New Jersey known as the Batman. After witnessing the murder of his parents at the hands of a mugger as a child, Bruce waged a war on crime in Gotham City for over 20 years before the Battle of Metropolis.

- DCEU Wiki.

Strategy

First off I'd like to lay out my strategy so you won't be confused as to why I bring up certain things throughout the post.

I believe both are on a similar tier of skill, both can definitely tag each other, and both can definitely take a good amount of hits (Although I believe Bruce can take more), both also have solid striking power. However Batman has superior Striking Power & Durability by a good margin that will mean he can put down Ward, this paired with Pressure Point attacks such as Joint strikes will mean that putting Ward down will not be too difficult.

Strength:

Batman's Strength is by far his most impressive aspect, he's a good deal stronger than Ward in terms of lifting strength and striking power. It will overall require less hits to put down Ward than the opposite.

In what I believe is his most impressive feat, Batman casually kicks away a Parademon around 15 Feet so hard that a Metal Pipe was removed from the ground. This is even more impressive considering Batman had bad leverage, and the fact that Parademon's in general have Superhuman physical characteristics. This is something I definitely can't see Ward replicating.

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Similarly, Batman kicked another one of these Parademons a good few meters away and kicking the demon off of it's feet.

In another impressive feat, Bruce ragdolls a man with a punch sending him flying over 10 feet away. Although Ward has also ragdolled people Bruce not only ragdolled the man, but he had to stop his momentum and additionally punch him away, as he had just pulled him inwards.

Another great feat of Bruce's is where he kicks a gun clean in half.

As for lifting strength I think Bruce's feats are pretty well known, so I don't feel the need to spend much time here, especially since you conceded to Bruce being stronger:

Counters:

Like I said, Ward isn't too far from Bruce in this category and it's pretty close. Ward is, for starters, an uber casual ragdoller:

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Hardly impressive, I guess you could say he lifted the man off of his feet, but the wall was relatively close to Ward, he didn't really throw him far.

Bruce casually tossed a merc a similar distance and broke a wall in the process.

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In this feat you failed to mention how the politician was thrown downhill, which clearly had an effect as he kept rolling.

Batman threw a thug around the same distance with his Grapple Gun without any sort of advantage like Ward had here.

That much was pretty clear, though, given the nature of the two combatants. To step it up a bit, let's look here:

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In the above gif we see Ward pretty casually pick a guy to use as a human shield, and then more impressively, slam him hard enough to knock down not one, but two fully geared STRIKE agents. I'm aware that Bruce is strong, but his application of it (as far as I remember) was mostly based on doing similar things to the above. Other than that it was all based on his grappling hook. Ward, on the other hand, is a fantastic, almost beastly fighter where it pertains to application of strength.

I don't see why this feat is even mentioned, we both know it's not even close to Bruce's best strength feats, if the feat was used purely as an analogy, then I'll move on to counter this.

Bruce is strong, but his application of it (as far as I remember) was mostly based on doing similar things to the above. Other than that it was all based on his grappling hook. Ward, on the other hand, is a fantastic, almost beastly fighter where it pertains to application of strength. He's been able to casually overpower highly skilled fighters such as Melinda May, a casual neck breaker (1)(2) that can ragdoll and flip over grown men decently herself (1)(2, the second with a single arm)(3, with a hole in her leg). She's decently strong, but that doesn't keep Ward from treating her like a toy:

False assertions, Bruce has used his raw strength in a combat situation, take here for example, Bruce uses his strength to rip apart Firefly's Armor while in combat.

You might argue that the Firefly Situation was different due to the suit, and he doesn't use his strength against regular opponents.

This is also false, here Bruce abuses his strength to break a man's arm knowing that he will be unable to recover from such an attack.

Now again, you could argue that this was only fodder, and he will be unable to replicate such a move on established fighters, this is also false, here Batman breaks Deadshot's leg with a kick disabling him from enganging in H2H again, and sends him back a few feet.

If Batman was to connect with one of these kicks that could be game over for Ward.

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Multiple times throughout their final fight, Ward is seen straight up grabbing May and just throwing her around, basically ignoring her own strength. That's an amazing application of strength, being able to outright overpower a fighter like that. Let's move on:

In the second gif he first uses his hits to put her in a vulnerable position, then grabs her hair and throws her, there wasn't really anything she could do.

The first gif proves that Ward is physically superior to May, I will admit. But if you're point is that he can perform similar things to Bruce, this is simply not true. As we've already established that Bruce is stronger lifting-wise.

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Here, Ward grabs Bobbi Morse and shoves her through a section of wall like a literal ragdoll. However, note the fashion in which he does it. He seems to grab the lower neck/inner shoulder area, which allows him to outright prevent her from using her strength. This basically means that all he has to do is throw her body weight around, something he should be fully capable of doing against Bruce. Even if you prove Bruce is stronger by a larger margin than I might believe he is, Ward is just far more effective at abusing his strength in a fight. To further this, it's against people far more skilled than Bruce himself, something I'll showcase later.

If you slow down this scene, you can see that Ward only managed to get Bobbi in a move as he caught a punch from her right arm, this is simply Ward can not replicate on Bruce as he hits a good deal harder than Bobbi and is definitely not going to be overpowered by Ward.

So yeah, he did disable her from using her strength to counter, but that was after already overpowering her, something he can't replicate against Bruce due to being weaker.

Again, another pretty close section. To start off here, we'll look a decently overused feat:

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Overused, but clearly effective. Ward straight up one-shots this guy, a rather large and muscular man, with the utmost ease. No struggle, no sweat. To further up the ante, Ward is fully capable of sending guys flipping into the air with his strikes:

Something well within Batman's capabilities, as he's already done this with a similar strike with just as much ease.

Overused, but clearly effective. Ward straight up one-shots this guy, a rather large and muscular man, with the utmost ease. No struggle, no sweat. To further up the ante, Ward is fully capable of sending guys flipping into the air with his strikes:

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As you can see, Ward pretty cleanly sends this guy into a full body rotation flip into a pond/pool thing. That's some pretty casual ragdolling, too. I doubt he could ragdoll Bruce like that, but force of those punches say, in his exposed jaw, would certainly hurt him.

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Here, Ward throws a knife hard enough to knock down a STRIKE agent through body armor and proceeds to hammer a guy hard enough to make him a full turn-flip in mid air. Again, doing this to Bruce might not do much, but it helps set a baseline for what he can do after time.

I see no reason why Batman can't tank many of these, Batman was ragdolled by a Superhuman Parademon repeatedly and hit repeatedly by a Parademon all in the same fight, and at the end he isn't hurt at all. Parademons are much stronger than Ward being able to dismantle the Batmobile and slam the parts hard enough to damage the Batmobile.

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Here's the last one for now. In this gif we see Ward casually overpower (albeit by surprise), then beat the ever loving crap out of a fully armored agent. He proceeds to punch him twice then knock his head into a sink, KOing him and possibly killing him. This is the kind of stuff that would eventually put Bruce down: grabbing him, punching him in the exposed area, and ramming his head into the nearby columns. It would be difficult, but not undoable.

Ward overpowering Fodder is not nearly enough to say that he can do the same to Batfleck, so I don't see how he is going to ram him around like you said he will, as we've already established Batman is stronger.

You also made a claim that Ward would hit him in an exposed area, if this were true he would have done the same to the Agent in the gif, who also had an exposed facial area, yet instead Ward hits his body, why would he change his style here?

Durability:

I believe Batman has a slight edge here, therefore it will require Ward a few more hits to put down Bruce rather than the opposite, I can definitely see Batman taking enough hits for him to put Ward down, which is all he really needs. As it won't take long to end Ward as he will be using Pressure Point attacks like I mentioned in my Strategy.

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In one of his most impressive feats, Batman takes a slam from a Parademon from a few dozen meters up and tanks this with 0 problems. Ward can not reach anywhere near this level of damage output, as this attack was also powerful enough to completely break a Concrete Pipe.

BEFORE
BEFORE
AFTER
AFTER

Batman has also taken attacks from Parademons in other instances such as here, when he gets ragdolled and takes hitsin the same fight repeatedly, note that one of these ragdolls was powerful enough to break a metal railing in half.

Batman takes these attacks without issue, proving he can take a lot of hits from Ward, a considerably weaker opponent.

Batman has also tanked attacks from other enhanced Superhumans, such as Wonder Woman.

He tanks a palm strike from Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman can break Stone with her fingers.

Once again, Batman tanking a hit from a stronger opponent indicates the fact that Batman can definitely take a lot of hits from Ward.

Batman has also taken repeated hits from fodder, here he takes 6 hits from Soldiers and isn't really affected by any of them, note that 1 of these included a kick to the face and another included Batman having his face bashed with a rifle, he had also tanked repeated hits from the Soldiers before this, including 2 Rifle Bashes to the stomach area.

Counters:

Ward, being one of the tankiest unenhanced street levellers out there, is naturally incredibly hard to put down. Batman is certainly comparable with the suit, but I still think this section is just incredibly close, primarily because of Centipede Soldiers. Let's set up what these guys can do, strength wise:

So yea, they're pretty freaking strong. Also remember that this is actual striking, not just strength feats. This doesn't stop Ward from taking multiple blows from them, on numerous occasions. For instance here:

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He gets thrown around a large handful of times and kept on getting back up. Their throws and slams barely affect him, and I showed what they did to that shipping container. Yet he still finds a way to take one down using the environment, visible affecting one with just a car door. I'll get into that later.

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You mentioned that Ward took "Strikes" or "Blows" from the Centipede Soldiers, yet in all of these gifs you've posted he doesn't take a single hit, but rather just ragdolls. Now although we could compare the Centipedes to the Parademons, it seems more logical to compare the actual ragdolls in the feats.

The throws that Ward takes are much shorter distance and much slower than the throws Batman took (See above for Parademon ragdolling Batman), I feel like the Parademon's throws are more powerful. This is because when Batman was tossed away, he broke concrete and metal structures in the process and travelled much further whereas Ward only seemed to be travelling a few feet and only broke a wooden pallet at best.

Finally, a lot of my strategy involves Batman attacking vulnerable areas and joints, which will bypass a lot of durability feats that Ward has, as I stated in my Strategy Section.

Don't get me wrong, Bruce will struggle to hurt Ward with these alone, but it's always nice to add icing on the cake.

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In this gif, Ward gets clocked directly in the face then proceeds to jump in front of a punch to help May, getting flung a decent 10ish feet. However, what most people fail to note is that Ward was actually seen up again in the background by 15 or so seconds later (time stamped when he got hit). Now he's seen getting up at 1:03 again, and there's two interpretations: either the editing was off with Ward in the background it only took Ward an extra five seconds to get up (which still makes the feat impressive, 20 seconds after getting hit in the head and then punched around the room) OR he got hit again in the back and got back up in 5 seconds (which wouldn't be far-fetched given what I've shown so far). Either interpretation is still massively impressive for Ward. Apart from raw durability, Ward brings something pretty great to the table, that being his insane pain tolerance.

It looks more like a body punch to me, if you slow the speed down to 0.25x it might be clearer.

I can definitely see Batman replicating these anyway, as I've shown with the Parademon feats, they seem much more impressive. We did see him tank 2 hits, and he wasn't really affected by either. And he also took ragdolls and slams which although aren't direct hits, are still extremely powerful, capable of breaking structures like pipes and steel bars.

Apart from raw durability, Ward brings something pretty great to the table, that being his insane pain tolerance.

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Here Ward gets his head slammed onto the table by Bobbi Morse then a bunch of needles are stabbed into the back of his skull. Ward retaliates by immediately taking the needles out of his neck and pushing Bobbi back. I mean it was Ward who told the audience that "Any agent worth their salt can block out pain." He literally embodies this when he gets shot in the shoulder by Coulson and proceeds to keep talking. So yea, Bruce is gonna struggle to put Ward down.

I don't see any need Batman would have for pain tolerance.

Ward however will due to my pressure point argument, although these feats will prove useful, he may be able to fight through the pain but the attacks could physically compromise his ability to fight, which can't be countered via sheer pain tolerance.

Speed:

You said Ward has the advantage here, but you didn't explain why it matters. This was rather confusing.... Anyway.

I strongly disagree with the point you made about Batman's speed. His 2 Main feats can definitely be quantified if we do some calcs and use some logic, which I will be doing here.

Batman's speed will mean that he can react to Ward in combat just fine and land hits of his own, and all he really needs is to land a few hits due to pressure points (These points will be discussed more in Skill).

I do believe Batman has a slight edge here as Ward only really has reaction speed feats, and you've only posted 1 which is impressive.

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Now using Video Editing Software, I counted it took 0.07 Seconds for it to reach Batman. The distance between Batman / Parademon looks around 3 Meters. Using the Speed Formula I calculated the blast to be 42m/s, that's still incredibly impressive (around 100mph).

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Another feat you mentioned was The Flash feat. I believe we can use this feat for Batman and it's certainly not unquantifiable.

Even after Flash trips, we can see near the top right corner that a Parademon is still in slow motion (almost frozen), and Flash still has Lightning coming off of him when Batman catches him. I won't try to argue that Flash was at his top speed, but it's still an insane feat.

A scene which isn't mentioned enough imo, is Batman's pursuit of Harley Quinn & The Joker. He actually gets 2 speed feats in the scene.

First off, Batman managed to land on the Joker's Speeding Car.

Secondly, Batman dodges a Surprise attack from Harley and manages to hit her in the face, the fact that he was able to tag her is alone quite impressive considering she has dodged attacks from Alien Soldiers.

Batman also has a nice assortment of ghosting feats:

Counters:

I don't think I really need to address the feats you posted in much detail. The first feat is pretty impressive as there were multiple opponents who he out-reacted, but Batman has reacted to faster things which should make up for the numbers gap.

Batman has also out-reacted Elite Fodder such as Insurgency Soldiers.

Ward has aim dodged too but that's nothing Bruce can't do, as we've seen numerous times.

Overall no one holds any large advantage here, both can definitely keep up with each other. And I feel like this section is least relevant in this battle due to the relatively equal terms.

Combat Skill:

Since my strategy relies on the use of Pressure Points, firstly let's look at Batman's previous use of these attacks to support the point that he actually will use them here:

Now all I need to prove is that Batman is actually competent enough to land hits on Ward. So let's get right into it.

Fodder:

Batman may not have as much feats as Ward, as he only has a few but Quality is always better than Quantity. And Batman's feats are definitely of high quality.

Batman takes out 7 Insurgency Soldiers in 14 seconds discounting the extra Soldier Bruce shot - Link.

Batman takes out 4 Armed Soldiers, he does this faster and without getting tagged as much as Ward did in his showing against 5 Soldiers - Link.

Bruce gives a fighter who is losing a fight a quick tip, and that allows him to suddenly dominate the fight, this shows great analysis of combatants and great technicality - Link.

Batman takes out 4 Mercenaries in quick succession - Link.

This upcoming feat is over-used as an anti-feat just because he was tagged, but we need to keep in mind here he was completely surrounded by 4 Mercenaries who were all attacking in rapid succession and at some points attacking simultaneously, for Bruce to monitor the activity of each thug and react to all of the incoming strikes isn't an easy task, also considering the fact they were armed with knives. But the fact that he manages to hold off all 4 while only getting tagged once on the cowl is impressive enough, and although they do tag him a few times after, this is due to the fact he gets hit out of nowhere and the fact that the mercs just kept getting back up, the fact that it took 7+ hits to put some of those mercs down speaks for itself, especially since we know how hard Bruce can hit.

It must have required great skill, combat speed and combat awareness to monitor the attacks of all thugs and not get tagged often, first he grabs the first merc's belt, while he punches the merc in front of him to incapacitate him to avoid a hit from him, he then goes back and hits the first merc in the face, this stuns the merc and allows Bruce to release his grip on his belt. He then hits the 2 mercs on his sides simultaneously, then proceeds to headbutt the merc on the left, now they were all stunned the first merc could have had time to recover, so Bruce pushes him back with an elbow strike. He then proceeds to simultaneously block 2 knife attacks from his sides, but the merc in front of him has recovered so he instantly goes in for a knife strike, Bruce dodges and moves to the left in order to use that merc in front of him as a quick shield to block strikes from his right. He quickly hits the merc on the right with a punch to the face, and performs an arm-breaker on the merc being used as a shield, this forces the merc to drop his knife and he is in immense pain, Bruce then kicks the merc on his right in the knee, this means he can no longer stand. So there is 3 left in the fight. The merc on his left quickly goes back in for another strike with his knife but it is blocked by Bruce and Bruce holds grip of his arm, the first merc goes back in for an attack, he is kicked backwards and Bruce uppercuts the merc he has a grip of. Then the first merc goes in for a hit but it is blocked and he is punched in the face, then the remaining merc gets punched in the head hard enough to flip him into the ground and break part of the ground. The last merc goes running in but Bruce dodges and tackles him to the ground, then pummels his head in until he is shot in the back of the cowl by a new fifth merc - Link.

After he gets shot by this merc, he flips the merc over his shoulder and breaks his arm, until he gets kicked in the face out of nowhere by one of the mercs he was previously fighting and pulled to the ground by another one of the mercs he was just fighting, he blocks their attacks but is kicked down and stabbed in the shoulder, he shrugs it off and kicks one merc down. He then knees the other merc in the face. He then punches the previous merc in the leg to floor him, he pulls the knife out of his shoulder, backs the merc he kneed onto the wall and stabs the knife in his shoulder, restricting him from moving. He is then hit from behind so he punches the merc behind him in the face, and knees him in the gut and then tosses him into a wall. That leaves 1 merc left who is stuck against the wall, he digs the knife into him to finally put him down - Link.

Now for the second part, it is unfair that he was tagged numerous times, as he was dealing with the merc with the gun, and previously he saw that they were all down, and then they suddenly get back up and attack him out of nowhere, Bruce was not expecting regular mercs to be so durable therefore he got tagged more than he should as he didn't make sure they were down and out, he will not make the same mistake with Ward as he has prior knowledge and knows that Ward is a skilled combatant, therefore he will make sure Ward is down and out.

Superhumans:

Bruce's feats against Superhumans are against Parademons, so similarly to Supreme with Centipede's let's list some Parademon feats.

  • Parademons casually dismantle the Batmobile and swing it's turret around - Link.
  • Parademons can dog-pile and overpower Steppenwolf in a group - Link.
  • Parademons are strong enough to overpower Aquaman who has more momentum as he has just leaped - Link.

In this showing, Bruce drops on the first Parademon one shotting it, Bruce is clearly more skilled than Parademons, and uses his speed advantage to avoid a deadly hit, and although he does eventually get rag-dolled a bit, this is likely because there was another Parademon behind him while he was dealing with the 2nd one, which most likely attacked him from behind - Link.

Now I'm not going to mention his other showings, as they are mainly stats-related and we are discussing skill here, so let's move on to Established Opponents.

Feats against Established Opponents:

Unfortunately, Bruce's only noteworthy feat against an established opponent is defeating Deadshot, fortunately his fodder / superhuman feats make up for this. Anyway, without further a due - let's look at the feat.

Batman easily dispatches of Deadshot using pressure point attacks (such as a precise knee strike), this shows great technicality and skill on Bruce's part - Link.

Deadshot can:

  • Hold his own against The Enchantress - Link.
  • One shots 2 Armed Guards while restrained - Link.

Skill Counters:

Counters to Fodder Feats:

For the first feat, it's Ward beating 2 FBI Agents, and although he had just dislocated his thumb, he did ambush them and therefore had the element of surprise, this isn't really impressive.

This next feat is Ward defeating 5 Soldiers.

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Now, I am going to compare this to Bruce's showing against 7 Insurgency Soldiers, due to the fact that they both used melee weapons.

Ward in the gif above beats 5 soldiers while getting tagged numerous times, Bruce however (in the gif below) beats the 7 Insurgency Soldiers without getting tagged in 14 seconds, I believe it is more impressive considering how he didn't get tagged.

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In this next showing, Ward takes out 5 soldiers, this is similar to Bruce's feat against 4 soldiers, Bruce gets tagged less than Ward and does it with much more ease.

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VS

(Read from right to left).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Now I'm not going to compare Ward's showing against shield agents, i'll just make a few comments.

Firstly, Ward has extreme struggle beating them and gets tagged numerous times, I'm not trying to lowball his skill, I just want to point out (like in my conclusion) that Ward relies on his tank-ish nature to take out opponents, this feat is a classic example, however he will not be able to do that against Bruce, as his striking power is too much for Ward.

Counters to Superhuman Feats:

Again, I'm not going to make a comparison here, just a few comments as I believe the feats are more stats related.

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In this first gif (above), Ward uses the centipede soldier's own strength against him, as the soldier punches into the car, and therefore is immobilized, this will not happen in the fight vs Bruce, as there are no obstacles in the room where they will fight, and Bruce is not lousy enough or even strong enough to punch into a concrete wall.

And although you may be trying to point out Ward is more skilled, I heavily disagree, as your second gif even contradicts this, when the Centipede Soldier has the upper hand against Ward AND May at the same time. The centipede was clearly losing because his hand was stuck and he was immobilized.

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You can clearly see Ward is less skilled as he gets beaten even with the assistance of Agent May.

Now I don't see what you are aiming to achieve with the Parademon and Centipede comparison, Centipedes are more skilled than Parademons, but Batman is more skilled than Parademons, Centipedes are more skilled than Ward and i'm not trying to say Bruce could beat a Centipede, but there is no skill comparison that can be made with the 2 feats:

Bruce vs Parademons.

Ward vs Centipedes.

I believe the fodder feats are where we can directly compare feats, and the comparisons suggest they are around the same tier skill-wise.

Counters to Established Opponent Feats:

Here, I believe Bruce is being lowballed.

Now this? This section is the real kicker, and why the skill battle isn't close. Bruce has a sneak attack (albeit holding back) on Deadshot who while no slouch, is certainly far from impressive. He also didn't have his gear, which we've seen him be reliant on in melee. He was also caught in an awkward position as well as the fact that he seemingly didn't expect the Bat to be bulletproof, something that caught him off-guard and didn't allow him to counter the ensuing punch.

Bruce sneaked up on Deadshot, but didn't attack him, instead he gave Floyd a warning and allowed Floyd time to go for the first hit, Bruce dodges and makes quick work of him.

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Now for Ward's feats, I'm just going to make a few comments here, not a comparison.

During Ward's fights against Bobbi, he was clearly less skilled, as Bobbi had just sustained hours of torture and was still holding off Ward + Agent 33 at the same time. Ward's attacks consisted of him ragdolling Bobbi, but as we've established in the strength section, he can't do that to Bruce, as Bruce is the stronger combatant.

Similarly to his fights against May, in all of the showings, May has hit Ward repeatedly before getting ragdolled, that won't happen here as I will repeat: Bruce is the stronger combatant.

Conclusion:

Batman has all the means necessary to win this fight, he has solid durability as well as a protective suit which means that he can take enough hits that he needs to in order to win the fight. Bruce has the strength necessary to put him down, but with the use of pressure points such as Knee Strikes Ward will be knocked off balanced therefore his combat situation will no longer be at 100%, meaning putting him down will be pretty easy as he'll be vulnerable. Bruce's skill definitely isn't as bad as you're making it out to be, he can definitely tag Ward with the Strikes such as Knee Strikes and eventually put Ward down.

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#43 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

You have the time to literally re-do every CaV post you write?

I thought my life was pointless and then I saw yours.

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#45 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Smh 3 CaV posts in 6 days isn't even bad, especially when this one had a lot of copy paste from my last post.

I thought my life was pointless and then I saw yours.

Idc

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#46 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline:

Smh 3 CaV posts in 6 days isn't even bad, especially when this one had a lot of copy paste from my last post.

I take a month or several months to reply to CaV's as do most normal people. A simple lol will suffice here.

Idc

The fact that you bothered to respond to my post indicates you do.

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#47 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I take a month or several months to reply to CaV's as do most normal people. A simple lol will suffice here.

Smh most people don't take nearly that long. Many CaVs have finished in that time.

I mean, if the implication is that I spend too much time on CV, then that's quite hypocritical, since I come on for the first time today and you reply in under 3 minutes....

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#48 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline:

Smh most people don't take nearly that long. Many CaVs have finished in that time.

It's called exaggeration. It's a technique often used in literature. You may have learned about it in your English class...

I mean most people don't get 3 CaV posts done in a week lmao. That's not normal.

I mean, if the implication is that I spend too much time on CV, then that's quite hypocritical, since I come on for the first time today and you reply in under 3 minutes....

24 minutes later...

The fact that I was browsing when you responded to me and responded almost instantly isn't indicative of how much time I spend on CV. Plus I don't spend that time writing lengthy CaV posts lmao. In fact I'm probably on CV less than you tbh.

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#49 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

It's called exaggeration. It's a technique often used in literature. You may have learned about it in your English class...

Didn't seem like it but alright.

I mean most people don't get 3 CaV posts done in a week lmao. That's not normal.

2 of them were really short which even you admitted and this one involved a lot of copy paste. Each post took around 80 minutes. So around 4 Hours for all 3 posts. Spread across a week, so about 35 minutes a day. Not really that bad.

24 minutes later...

The fact that I was browsing when you responded to me and responded almost instantly isn't indicative of how much time I spend on CV. Plus I don't spend that time writing lengthy CaV posts lmao. In fact I'm probably on CV less than you tbh.

You're right, you don't spend your time writing lengthy CaV posts, you spend your time writing lengthy posts in battle threads. The amount of stuff you wrote in this thread is more than the 3 CaV posts I did combined, and all that was in around 2 days.

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#50 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25855 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy.